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Recommended Games+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler [Game 1] +Poll: Recommend Snow vs Soulkey Game 1?Yes (37) 100% No (0) 0% If you have time (0) 0% 37 total votes Your vote: Recommend Snow vs Soulkey Game 1? (Vote): Yes
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Poll: Recommend Snow vs Soulkey Game 2?Yes (30) 100% No (0) 0% If you have time (0) 0% 30 total votes Your vote: Recommend Snow vs Soulkey Game 2? (Vote): Yes
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Poll: Recommend Snow vs Soulkey Game 3?Yes (57) 98% No (1) 2% If you have time (0) 0% 58 total votes Your vote: Recommend Snow vs Soulkey Game 3? (Vote): Yes
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Poll: Recommend Snow vs Soulkey Game 4?Yes (35) 97% If you have time (1) 3% No (0) 0% 36 total votes Your vote: Recommend Snow vs Soulkey Game 4? (Vote): Yes
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Poll: Recommend Snow vs Soulkey Game 5?No (12) 44% Yes (10) 37% If you have time (5) 19% 27 total votes Your vote: Recommend Snow vs Soulkey Game 5? (Vote): Yes
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Poll: Recommend Snow vs Soulkey Game 6?No (14) 50% Yes (9) 32% If you have time (5) 18% 28 total votes Your vote: Recommend Snow vs Soulkey Game 6? (Vote): Yes
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Poll: Recommend Snow vs Soulkey Game 7?Yes (14) 64% No (6) 27% If you have time (2) 9% 22 total votes Your vote: Recommend Snow vs Soulkey Game 7? (Vote): Yes
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On April 18 2024 01:54 ThunderJunk wrote:
You people are actually dumb - "BOO, ZvZ finals". The better players win on the merits of their efforts and you're sitting back here asking for match fixing. Idiots.
I'm stoked for Hero and Soulkey. They both deserve their spots and I'm going to enjoy watching the finals.
I am taking HerO over Soulkey for the ZvZ finals.
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Damn, those first 3 games were absolutely amazing, holy shit. That PvZ on Blitz was the most entertaining PvZ since Best vs Action but at a (even) higher level. Unbelievable how these two players could keep up this high level of attention and multitasking for 40 minutes.
I'm bummed about the result though. The last two games felt really cheap and were not a worthy ending to an otherwise amazing series. Soulkey is one of my favourite players so I'm not sad to see him in the finals. However, I did root for Snow to finally get a title under his belt. I don't think he has ever been in better shape in an ASL. I also don't like the idea of a ZvZ final. This will be super boring for sure and I'm not sure I even want to catch it live. Both, Hero and Soulkey, obviously deserve to be in the finals because they both played super solid for the entirety of this ASL. However, the same can be said about Sharp (except for g2-5 in the semi final tbh) and Snow and I think any combination of 2 out of those 4 players would have been way more entertaining to watch than Hero vs Soulkey. Oh well, it is how it is.
On April 17 2024 21:59 moktira wrote:
As disappointed as I am in that, and those quick last 2 games in particular, I just want to say what a fantastic commentator Ret was and I hope we hear him more frequently.
This so much, I hope he reads this! Really enjoyed his casting! StarcastTV is generally doing a great job (again) of course. But Ret's calm analytical style without being "dry" is something I personally really enjoy and I felt he really synergised well with Gypsy (and likely would with Nyoken as well).
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On April 18 2024 03:17 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2024 01:54 ThunderJunk wrote:
You people are actually dumb - "BOO, ZvZ finals". The better players win on the merits of their efforts and you're sitting back here asking for match fixing. Idiots.
I'm stoked for Hero and Soulkey. They both deserve their spots and I'm going to enjoy watching the finals. I am taking HerO over Soulkey for the ZvZ finals.
Agreed, I think Hero's ZvZ is top notch, whereas Soulkey has recently upped us ZvZ to be respectable but not top tier
Soulkey and JyJ both have killer mentality. I think if JyJ continues practicing, he could overtake Light soon in terms of offline results. There's something about his personality that you can see in his interviews (similar to Effort) where he's not afraid of anyone and exudes confidence.
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That was something special. Multiple times a shuttle, pursued by a pair of scourge, rushes in an pick up two reavers. Who the hell does that? Make your shuttle worth 700/200 odd. Like the scourge were nothing. Props to Snow and Soulkey on an epic series.
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This was a great series. The reaver micro was sick. SoulKey, though, convincing me he is the best player in the world right now. Go down 0-2 in a series? It's ok, he's just downloading you.
Honestly, so patient to be maxed for several minutes as zerg and do nothing. Really impressive play all around.
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People always meme about Soulkey's ZvZ, but he's clashed with Hero 4 times in ASL and he has won 3 of them, with an overall record of 9W6L for Soulkey.
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The balance whine about PvZ is ridiculous. SK lost two fast games, won two fast games, and the two decider games were > 100 supply games where Snow didn't have to guess about SK at all.
Every whine about gambling only applies to the 4 games where rushes were used, which split 2-2. In the non-gamble games, Soulkey beat Snow 2-0 by a hair. Can't blame PvZ imba for snow not mining the fourth gas in game 3.
Do better. Whether PvZ is imbalanced or not in the early game had absolutely nothing to do with the results of the series. SK won the macro games. (The maps have P > Z anyways).
I don't understand why people can't credit both players for playing well, and SK for playing better. If SK won four rushes in a row, fine. But he didn't. He won on the macro games.
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If two players of equal skill play each other, the chance of getting a 4-2, 4-1, or 4-0 is 72.6%.
In those cases, youe either get the PvZ balance whiners or the ZvP balance whiners come out in full force depending on who wins. If snow won Games 3 and 4 in a 4-0 sweep (a few coin flips in Snow's favor, and he could've done it!), the JD ZvP balance thread would explode about Protoss imbalance on the maps. Balance whiners won't rest unless its' 4-3, a 27.4% proposition.
(Whether PvZ is imbalanced or not early-game doesn't matter for this result -- SK won the two longer games. What more do you want?)
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First, it doesn't matter if SK won macro games or short games; point is a point. And even long macro games roots start from the early-mid game. For example, if SK did a 973 where he did devastating damage, but not to the point where Snow would gg, and the game goes to 40 minutes, wouldnt in your opinion the early game was to blame for the loss?
Second, people whine about the overall imbalance over the past 20+ years. Since you like statistics so much, if we have +/- 40% of the player pool (milions of players or more), if the game was perfectly balanced, shouldn't protoss have 40% of the trophies?
I get it that it ultimately comes down to genius representatives of each race, but what are the odds for protoss to heave least of them.
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On April 18 2024 16:21 SerpentFlame wrote:
If two players of equal skill play each other, the chance of getting a 4-2, 4-1, or 4-0 is 72.6%.
In those cases, youe either get the PvZ balance whiners or the ZvP balance whiners come out in full force depending on who wins. If snow won Games 3 and 4 in a 4-0 sweep (a few coin flips in Snow's favor, and he could've done it!), the JD ZvP balance thread would explode about Protoss imbalance on the maps. Balance whiners won't rest unless its' 4-3, a 27.4% proposition.
(Whether PvZ is imbalanced or not early-game doesn't matter for this result -- SK won the two longer games. What more do you want?)
I think you're making a good point, but personally I give balance whiners even less credit: they always complain unless their favorite race wins, that's just how they are.
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There is obviously something in the fundamental design of the Starcraft franchise that makes Protoss weaker than the other races at the top level. Obviously not game breaking imbalance, but enough to show us a pattern at the top level. And the more telling thing is that pattern not only applies to the 20+ years of SC1. It extends to the 10+ years of SC2.
How coincidental is that, that all the top talents who play Protoss are just not as good as Zerg and Terran? In both SC1 and SC2, in all these years, Kespa or Afreeca, and it's also true when the talent pool expands to a global scale, not being restricted to just Korea, like what we're seeing in SC2.
On April 18 2024 18:24 Magic Powers wrote:
I think you're making a good point, but personally I give balance whiners even less credit: they always complain unless their favorite race wins, that's just how they are.
Except that only Protoss whiners have the evidences to back up their claims.
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On April 18 2024 16:59 Bonyth wrote:
First, it doesn't matter if SK won macro games or short games; point is a point. And even long macro games roots start from the early-mid game. For example, if SK did a 973 where he did devastating damage, but not to the point where Snow would gg, and the game goes to 40 minutes, wouldnt in your opinion the early game was to blame for the loss?
Second, people whine about the overall imbalance over the past 20+ years. Since you like statistics so much, if we have +/- 40% of the player pool (milions of players or more), if the game was perfectly balanced, shouldn't protoss have 40% of the trophies?
I get it that it ultimately comes down to genius representatives of each race, but what are the odds for protoss to heave least of them.
no pls :D this is a speculation. did you see Blitz game? was normal game no damage both sides. Soulkey plays in whole games around +30-50 apm ( i know it doesn matter if anyone has better mechanic but still ) Soulkey had 3 more base in late game ok let only 2, and cant win easily with 1a2a3a as zerg ?. Snow not minning gas, missing armor upgrade and maybe DA? and almost lost that game. whats wrong with Zerg side which is why imba the zerg? anyone please let me know  about statistic my opinion the next 10 years or ++ statistic just doesnt matter for my view, when protoss meta in pvz was 3 0 0 units, fast 3rd exp they were much more vulnerable then it was z>p. zerg close to same, yes more all in build because you dont wanna play normal game against protoss nowadays. I think nowadays again not really matter statistic because no players, they are old and etc.
but honestly if peaople whos thinking z imba about this serias then starcraft lost forever in foreign scene and the old remains, we scold the other race everywhere like here, BSL chat ( the best ) ggs
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On April 18 2024 18:32 TMNT wrote:There is obviously something in the fundamental design of the Starcraft franchise that makes Protoss weaker than the other races at the top level. Obviously not game breaking imbalance, but enough to show us a pattern at the top level. And the more telling thing is that pattern not only applies to the 20+ years of SC1. It extends to the 10+ years of SC2. How coincidental is that, that all the top talents who play Protoss are just not as good as Zerg and Terran? In both SC1 and SC2, in all these years, Kespa or Afreeca, and it's also true when the talent pool expands to a global scale, not being restricted to just Korea, like what we're seeing in SC2. Show nested quote +On April 18 2024 18:24 Magic Powers wrote:
I think you're making a good point, but personally I give balance whiners even less credit: they always complain unless their favorite race wins, that's just how they are. Except that only Protoss whiners have the evidences to back up their claims.
I disagree. Every race has one matchup that's in favor of the opposite race. We've had this discussion before though, and I got dogpiled for having an unpopular opinion. So I won't do that again.
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On April 18 2024 18:32 TMNT wrote:There is obviously something in the fundamental design of the Starcraft franchise that makes Protoss weaker than the other races at the top level. Obviously not game breaking imbalance, but enough to show us a pattern at the top level. And the more telling thing is that pattern not only applies to the 20+ years of SC1. It extends to the 10+ years of SC2. How coincidental is that, that all the top talents who play Protoss are just not as good as Zerg and Terran? In both SC1 and SC2, in all these years, Kespa or Afreeca, and it's also true when the talent pool expands to a global scale, not being restricted to just Korea, like what we're seeing in SC2. Show nested quote +On April 18 2024 18:24 Magic Powers wrote:
I think you're making a good point, but personally I give balance whiners even less credit: they always complain unless their favorite race wins, that's just how they are. Except that only Protoss whiners have the evidences to back up their claims.
sc2 actually does have a top protoss, maxpax, he just doesn't attend tournaments.
Comparing both games is totally nonsensical in my opninion, they have nothing to do with each other, only in name.
I know it's a wild argument but when you look at the easy protoss mechanics there may be an argument that players with fast hands would prefer to play terran or zerg, but especially terran because it did kind of dominate the game forever. So perhaps good players would think they would have the most succes with terran.
It started with boxer, nada, iloveoov, all the way through now with last, rush, flash, but terran has always kind of dominated. So if you're a 14 year old starting this game and you want to become a champion what race makes sense to pick? Probably terran.
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On April 18 2024 18:39 sas.Sziky wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2024 16:59 Bonyth wrote:
First, it doesn't matter if SK won macro games or short games; point is a point. And even long macro games roots start from the early-mid game. For example, if SK did a 973 where he did devastating damage, but not to the point where Snow would gg, and the game goes to 40 minutes, wouldnt in your opinion the early game was to blame for the loss?
Second, people whine about the overall imbalance over the past 20+ years. Since you like statistics so much, if we have +/- 40% of the player pool (milions of players or more), if the game was perfectly balanced, shouldn't protoss have 40% of the trophies?
I get it that it ultimately comes down to genius representatives of each race, but what are the odds for protoss to heave least of them. no pls :D this is a speculation. did you see Blitz game? was normal game no damage both sides. Soulkey plays in whole games around +30-50 apm ( i know it doesn matter if anyone has better mechanic but still ) Soulkey had 3 more base in late game ok let only 2, and cant win easily with 1a2a3a as zerg ?. Snow not minning gas, missing armor upgrade and maybe DA? and almost lost that game. whats wrong with Zerg side which is why imba the zerg? anyone please let me know about statistic my opinion the next 10 years or ++ statistic just doesnt matter for my view, when protoss meta in pvz was 3 0 0 units, fast 3rd exp they were much more vulnerable then it was z>p. zerg close to same, yes more all in build because you dont wanna play normal game against protoss nowadays. I think nowadays again not really matter statistic because no players, they are old and etc. but honestly if peaople whos thinking z imba about this serias then starcraft lost forever in foreign scene and the old remains, we scold the other race everywhere like here, BSL chat ( the best ) ggs
nono, all i wanted to say, is that i don't like to seperate long games from short ones (both will give you a point in the series). I don't have any problems with game on Blitz. No problems with any other games either. Starcraft is like that, just a little imbalanced, but not to the point where u cannot make up for it with skill.
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Huh. I may be completely wrong, but I think if we had some zergs at the old standard of mechanical practice today, there would not even be a midgame advantage for Protoss.
You'd just see even supplies at 12 minutes already, despite P massing on 2 bases. I think currently Zergs just don't produce and dodge storms like they used to, more so than any innovations from P side.
As for the games in this series, eh. Could be a win for Snow if a few things played out differently, could also be a 4-0 for SK, the first 2 games were also pretty damn close.
Personally predicted 4-2 SK just based on their recent head to head results, and that's it.
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On April 18 2024 19:18 Soulforged wrote:
Huh. I may be completely wrong, but I think if we had some zergs at the old standard of mechanical practice today, there would not even be a midgame advantage for Protoss.
You'd just see even supplies at 12 minutes already, despite P massing on 2 bases. I think currently Zergs just don't produce and dodge storms like they used to, more so than any innovations from P side.
As for the games in this series, eh. Could be a win for Snow if a few things played out differently, could also be a 4-0 for SK, the first 2 games were also pretty damn close.
Personally predicted 4-2 SK just based on their recent head to head results, and that's it.
zerg has maximized macro. its not like they could produce faster with more mechanics. they are limited by income and larva available, not by speed. Insane take lol
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On April 18 2024 18:53 Comedy wrote:
I know it's a wild argument but when you look at the easy protoss mechanics there may be an argument that players with fast hands would prefer to play terran or zerg, but especially terran because it did kind of dominate the game forever. So perhaps good players would think they would have the most succes with terran.
It started with boxer, nada, iloveoov, all the way through now with last, rush, flash, but terran has always kind of dominated. So if you're a 14 year old starting this game and you want to become a champion what race makes sense to pick? Probably terran.
Problem is (1) this is just pure speculation with no evidence to back it up, (2) when you look at the few players at the top we have both fast and slow players for each race. Soulkey is actually one of the slowest players lol. Mind has circa 200 apm as Terran. Light is not slow but also not fast at all. Mini and Bisu are one the fastest players in the history of the game, (3) fast doesn't mean good.
But more importantly, didn't you just practically say that Terran is stronger in these two paragraphs?
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zerg has maximized macro. its not like they could produce faster with more mechanics. they are limited by income and larva available, not by speed. Insane take lol
For macro, obviously meant it in a sense that they're getting away with less, for various reasons. If you need some examples...how often do we see these days random single zealots sniping drones, sometimes even when there's not much action going on? Overmade lings that still miss zealots getting behind mineral line? etc
I'm aware that this argument also applies to P players, e.g. while we get to see Snow run around with a scout probe while microing offensive zealots while defending his natural, he's also the type to float minerals during mid game & so on. But I figure if both were pushed to previous standards of practice, Zerg would have more upside.
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On April 18 2024 16:12 SerpentFlame wrote:
The balance whine about PvZ is ridiculous. SK lost two fast games, won two fast games, and the two decider games were > 100 supply games where Snow didn't have to guess about SK at all.
Every whine about gambling only applies to the 4 games where rushes were used, which split 2-2. In the non-gamble games, Soulkey beat Snow 2-0 by a hair. Can't blame PvZ imba for snow not mining the fourth gas in game 3.
Do better. Whether PvZ is imbalanced or not in the early game had absolutely nothing to do with the results of the series. SK won the macro games. (The maps have P > Z anyways).
I don't understand why people can't credit both players for playing well, and SK for playing better. If SK won four rushes in a row, fine. But he didn't. He won on the macro games.
Yes but games aren't played in a vacuum, pro players have several times said how the way they play influences their future play. Gambling strategies or timed all ins influence every single map and choice precisely because they are always possible, even if the game later turns into a long macro game. If Protoss knew there was not going to be any aggression they would never start with a forge to begin with.
It is boring as an spectator to see only one side being able to pick the dice on demand while the other side is always playing guess the build and gets zero advantage even when the guess is right.
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EPT
