EPT
[ASL17] Semifinal B
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49993 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49993 Posts
Poll: Who do you want to win? Snow (25) Soulkey (9) 34 total votes Your vote: Who do you want to win? | ||
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Yaqoob
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KristofferAG
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HOLYBATS
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prosatan
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RJBTV
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4168 Posts
FIGHTING ! ! ! | ||
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masoka82
Spain594 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
My head still says 4-2 to Soulkey | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia12999 Posts
Snow is rock solid but I think his straight up play has led to him being exploitable. | ||
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HOLYBATS
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PVJ
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BLinD-RawR
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BLinD-RawR
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BLinD-RawR
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killer1nz
New Zealand164 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
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RowdierBob
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HOLYBATS
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BLinD-RawR
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PVJ
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RowdierBob
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RowdierBob
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M2
Bulgaria4110 Posts
On April 16 2024 19:31 RowdierBob wrote: I’m kinda surprised SK tried that build give NDO is a pretty Z favoured map. Thought he might’ve saved something like that for citadel. However, Snow picked that map, so perhaps there is something | ||
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Simplistik
1984 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49993 Posts
On April 16 2024 19:30 HOLYBATS wrote: Incredible show from both players. absolutely, extremely good strategy, good execution from soulkey. Snow kept his cool, figured something was up and handled it. I think that controlling scourge in that situation is probably the hardest thing any zerg player could do and he wasn't able to maximize efficiency by having too many die on a single sair, leaving enough to deal with mutas. | ||
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Simplistik
1984 Posts
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HOLYBATS
Turkey719 Posts
On April 16 2024 19:32 RowdierBob wrote: Great instincts from Snow there too to make the second cannon in the main. He knew something was up. If not there I reckon that ling drop wins it. He most probably built for mutas though. | ||
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RowdierBob
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RowdierBob
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Simplistik
1984 Posts
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HOLYBATS
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RowdierBob
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Simplistik
1984 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49993 Posts
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RowdierBob
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands757 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
like, soulkey took down the forge to red Hp in two targeting volleys then left it online for the upgrade to finish. This is weird from my perspective | ||
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Bonyth
Poland544 Posts
On April 16 2024 19:54 PVJ wrote: Does it make sense for Zerg to let +1 attack finish at the forge when there are 2 zealots out there? Does it not matter against such a small number with most hydras taken down by cannons and the probe drill? like, soulkey took down the forge to red Hp in two targeting volleys then left it online for the upgrade to finish. This is weird from my perspective +1 doesnt matter, because zerg wants to finish the game here and now, in fact, Snow should have cancelled it maybe. Now, killing that forge and gateway to create an open space for ling/hydra before attacking is another question. I think Snow's cannon positioning, probe drill and zealot positioning was just that good. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49993 Posts
On April 16 2024 19:49 RowdierBob wrote: SK’s play is kinda weird today. His late game Zerg is so good but he doesn’t seem very keen to get in a macro game with Snow. maybe this goes back to Jaedong's comments about map pool and PvZ right now. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands757 Posts
On April 16 2024 20:04 BLinD-RawR wrote: maybe this goes back to Jaedong's comments about map pool and PvZ right now. its 100% does. Soulkey's been trying for shorter games since the map pool dropped. | ||
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foxmeep
Australia2320 Posts
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RowdierBob
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
If zerg takes the island base he will be stormed into death though | ||
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PVJ
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RowdierBob
Australia12999 Posts
Snow really needs to secure the 9 expo. | ||
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foxmeep
Australia2320 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49993 Posts
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RowdierBob
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prosatan
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Zariel
Australia1285 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria3734 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7793 Posts
On April 16 2024 20:20 RowdierBob wrote: Ugh plz take 9 +1 ! sk needs 9 !!! | ||
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foxmeep
Australia2320 Posts
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prosatan
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RowdierBob
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
Would like to see more archons and dark archons to push through dark swarm | ||
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RowdierBob
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foxmeep
Australia2320 Posts
Edit: how does he not notice he's got so much mins vs gas? lol | ||
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Magic Powers
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BLinD-RawR
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PVJ
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
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BLinD-RawR
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RowdierBob
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foxmeep
Australia2320 Posts
On April 16 2024 20:28 RowdierBob wrote: Hard to see anyway back for snow here. He’s gonna have to show some crazy efficiency in big fights. If Snow can just sit for a bit and mass reaver/archon/ht though that's pretty filthy. And SK has droned so hard he's actually gonna run out of money eventually. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
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Magic Powers
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BLinD-RawR
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PVJ
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foxmeep
Australia2320 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49993 Posts
I totally get what zergs mean when they say they hate playing this map. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21538 Posts
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands757 Posts
Soulkey wins now. Snow has no more income. | ||
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Magic Powers
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BLinD-RawR
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21538 Posts
christ. | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4329 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
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M2
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PVJ
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Magic Powers
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BLinD-RawR
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foxmeep
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PVJ
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foxmeep
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PVJ
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BLinD-RawR
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PVJ
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Gorsameth
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foxmeep
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Magic Powers
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49993 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia12999 Posts
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SwordM13X24
United States190 Posts
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HOLYBATS
Turkey719 Posts
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Magic Powers
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prosatan
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PVJ
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M2
Bulgaria4110 Posts
On April 16 2024 20:45 RowdierBob wrote: Amazing. SK’s move to secure that island in the mid game won it. The base at 9 won it imo and Snow could've claimed I think, but he thought he is fine or smth | ||
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KristofferAG
Norway25712 Posts
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foxmeep
Australia2320 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
On April 16 2024 20:01 Bonyth wrote: +1 doesnt matter, because zerg wants to finish the game here and now, in fact, Snow should have cancelled it maybe. Now, killing that forge and gateway to create an open space for ling/hydra before attacking is another question. I think Snow's cannon positioning, probe drill and zealot positioning was just that good. Thanks Bonyth! This was my intuition (as a couch potato level toss) but I didn't get why Soulkey was unable to decide whether to kill the forge or not, then let it live with one volley of hits left of its Hp | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia12999 Posts
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staRt.toDaY
Germany38 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria3734 Posts
On April 16 2024 21:03 RowdierBob wrote: SK gonna have to turtle like fuck here. Snow gonna have a huge mid game burst. That's right, Snow has a massive tech advantage. SK is gonna have to fight for survival. Doable, but very tough. | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
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BLinD-RawR
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umelbumel
2026 Posts
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KristofferAG
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PVJ
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Magic Powers
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PVJ
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Magic Powers
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KristofferAG
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BLinD-RawR
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PVJ
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Rainalcar
Croatia360 Posts
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SwordM13X24
United States190 Posts
GG! | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4110 Posts
On April 16 2024 21:10 Rainalcar wrote: ZvP... where P has to guess to win. Let me fix it for you: has to guess to be even xD | ||
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RowdierBob
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KristofferAG
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RowdierBob
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RowdierBob
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PVJ
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Sorusaba
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PVJ
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RowdierBob
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Rainalcar
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BLinD-RawR
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
EDIT: Does not matter at all. Not at all. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia12999 Posts
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Gorsameth
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49993 Posts
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Magic Powers
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KristofferAG
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RowdierBob
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Magic Powers
Austria3734 Posts
On April 16 2024 21:26 RowdierBob wrote: I just don’t get that build from Snow. Like you have to be so certain he’s going muta there or you die to hydra or lurk. He has to play safer there after scouting the early Lair and instead goes 2 gate cair -_- No, SK forced a gamble. Snow had no way of knowing what he should do. If he guesses right he wins, if he guesses wrong he loses. It's roughly 50/50. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia12999 Posts
On April 16 2024 21:28 Magic Powers wrote: No, SK forced a gamble. Snow had no way of knowing what he should do. If he guesses right he wins, if he guesses wrong he loses. It's roughly 50/50. I disagree a tad here. I think he can afford to be a bit more conservative and cover both muta and lurk all-in in this spot. He knows it a 2 base all in of some sort. Instead of just defending he guesses muta, goes 2 gate cair and makes it a coin flip game. Troy is pretty heavily P favoured. I think snow can afford to be way more defensive there after the lair scout. | ||
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HOLYBATS
Turkey719 Posts
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M2
Bulgaria4110 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4168 Posts
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PVJ
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BLinD-RawR
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PVJ
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Magic Powers
Austria3734 Posts
On April 16 2024 21:31 RowdierBob wrote: I disagree a tad here. I think he can afford to be a bit more conservative and cover both muta and lurk all-in in this spot. He knows it a 2 base all in of some sort. Instead of just defending he guesses muta, goes 2 gate cair and makes it a coin flip game. Troy is pretty heavily P favoured. I think snow can afford to be way more defensive there after the lair scout. Trust me, Snow knows this scenario a lot better than anyone here. If he could've increased his odds by playing a "solid build", he would've done it. There was no solid build option. You should have more trust in this man, he plays protoss for a living at the absolute highest level. | ||
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KristofferAG
Norway25712 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21538 Posts
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prosatan
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RowdierBob
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BLinD-RawR
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M2
Bulgaria4110 Posts
On April 16 2024 21:34 M2 wrote: In a way 8/10 of the last ZvPs were all ins 9/11 | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3734 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
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PVJ
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kAra
Germany1355 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
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KristofferAG
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands757 Posts
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Rainalcar
Croatia360 Posts
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ggsimida
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Broodwar4lyf
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HOLYBATS
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RowdierBob
Australia12999 Posts
On April 16 2024 21:36 Magic Powers wrote: Trust me, Snow knows this scenario a lot better than anyone here. If he could've increased his odds by playing a "solid build", he would've done it. There was no solid build option. You should have more trust in this man, he plays protoss for a living at the absolute highest level. He gambled on muta. You don’t need to be a BW savant here to see what happened. If invests in a few more cannons and not aggressive dbl stargate he prob wins. I can only think he maybe thinks SK is doing a fake out all in and transitioning into more macro play. Regardless, Snow took the riskier option and it cost him | ||
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prosatan
Romania7793 Posts
let's be happy because we have them !! | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4168 Posts
On April 16 2024 21:41 Rainalcar wrote: To all of you deniers of reality, enjoy ZvZ final. I hope the fans boycott it so hard. I certainly will. I will not watch because I'm just not interested at all. I'll check who won and that's it. Bummer. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia12999 Posts
On April 16 2024 21:41 ggsimida wrote: so much protoss salt in TL lol As a former Z player I’m happy to see Zergs do well but will also be the first to cry at how dull ZvZ is to watch. 4-7 games of intense ling and muta micro is fine, but mirror matchups just aren’t as exciting in finals | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3734 Posts
On April 16 2024 21:41 RowdierBob wrote: He gambled on muta. You don’t need to be a BW savant here to see what happened. If invests in a few more cannons and not aggressive dbl stargate he prob wins. I can only think he maybe thinks SK is doing a fake out all in and transitioning into more macro play. Regardless, Snow took the riskier option and it cost him You're arguing against Snow, not against me, do you realize that? | ||
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TMNT
2559 Posts
On April 16 2024 21:41 RowdierBob wrote: He gambled on muta. You don’t need to be a BW savant here to see what happened. If invests in a few more cannons and not aggressive dbl stargate he prob wins. I can only think he maybe thinks SK is doing a fake out all in and transitioning into more macro play. Regardless, Snow took the riskier option and it cost him It's not a gamble. It's taking the best educated guess. Air superiority is super important on Troy. And because the nat is on high ground, Hydra bust is not popular. He even built 2 Cannons in the main to prevent drops. As I already said before, at this level they can't play the kind of build that guarantees safety in all cases. That is ladder level of play. Prior to the bust Snow moved his units out a bit and saw a lot of Lings and at that point he knew it was Ling Lurker all in. That is as good as it gets when it comes to obtaining information and reacting to the situations. Blind building more than 2 cannons just for a just in case situation doesn't exist at top level. | ||
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Highways
Australia6102 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia12999 Posts
On April 16 2024 21:49 Magic Powers wrote: You're arguing against Snow, not against me, do you realize that? Eh, snows not here to share his thought process so we’re just speculating. But once he scouts the quick lair there’s really three options: quick muta, quick lurker, fake all in into macro play. Dbl gate cair does well against muta and fake out but near auto loss to lurker. More cannon crushes the all ins but not so great if SK does a fake out. If the more learned players have a more accurate opinion I’ll wear it but I still think with the map advantage Protoss has on Troy that snow could’ve taken the more conservative approach to that game. But it’s all easy in hindsight. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia12999 Posts
On April 16 2024 21:52 TMNT wrote: It's not a gamble. It's taking the best educated guess. Air superiority is super important on Troy. And because the nat is on high ground, Hydra bust is not popular. He even built 2 Cannons in the main to prevent drops. As I already said before, at this level they can't play the kind of build that guarantees safety in all cases. That is ladder level of play. Prior to the bust Snow moved his units out a bit and saw a lot of Lings and at that point he knew it was Ling Lurker all in. That is as good as it gets when it comes to obtaining information and reacting to the situations. Blind building more than 2 cannons just for a just in case situation doesn't exist at top level. Early/slow drop is not an option with the layout of Troy. The main cannons and double gate all pointed to Snow gambling on a muta all in. He only built cannons at front after SK flashes all the lings and he realised (too late) what was up. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3734 Posts
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bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
I said Zerg is the best race but no one believes on me | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia12999 Posts
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orth0dox
28 Posts
I'd about about you guys, but i would gladly prefer one good series instead of bunch of mediocre ones. Soulkey delivered just that and i'm grateful for him. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6511 Posts
On April 16 2024 22:02 bovienchien wrote: If the final has 3 players, we will have 3 zergs I said Zerg is the best race but no one believes on me No doubt not one believes you. Your map taste is terrible  LOL. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia12999 Posts
Protoss killer. | ||
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Highways
Australia6102 Posts
On April 16 2024 22:05 RowdierBob wrote: Pretty sick run from SK this ASL. Has now taken out Snow, Mini and Bisu. Protoss killer. Isn't every Zerg a Protoss killer? | ||
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kodecopas
Peru17 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia12999 Posts
I’m waiting for the next JD balance whine :D | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6511 Posts
It was cool to see Soulkey bring such an old school strategy on Citadel. I didnt see that build since 2010-2011. the fake hydra bust but with a main as backup. That said the hold he made was incredible. I wonder if Snow attacked too fast ? i really wonder if with more dragoon support and high templars and 4 reavers. ( Nony style vs Mondragon in TSL 2 finals ) could have been really scary for SK but it is what it is. Im honestly surprised the game on troy ended that way. I myself have played vs Snow and doing the exact same build and he defended way better that situation. Im pretty sure he played Soma that build countless times and beat it aswell. I think the biggest difference is that he didnt make many zealots this time to tank and to block to make time for canons to finish. Actually is true he made 2 canons in the main. Guess he was aware of a ling drop after game 1 ? He even made a dragoon so make me think he wanted to be prepared for that situation of game 1. Last game Soulkey took a far expansion again. I wonder what the plan was. I think he played reactive after getting 5 lings inside the main. Dunno why Snow didnt close the wall but well. Sad way to end the series if you are a toss fan. Another season where Snow is the top player in the world but cant really make it to the ASL final. Now Hero vs Soulkey i think Hero is the big favorite. Better muta control. Better builds for zvz. We will see if SK can fight that. Always that there is a mirror final it leaves 2 of the races fans with this arguments. In the case of zvz i wonder if they could reach a gentleman agreement to make it more interesting. Maybe 2 island maps ? maybe 1 game where you are forced to not use Mutalisk /Scourge. But you can use Guardians devours ? It doesnt really grants a sure thing for a hive tech game but the chances are higher. Anyway is crazy that the only 2 zergs that advanced to Ro8 are in the Final LOL. Next season Mappool gonna be scary. | ||
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BulgarianToss
Bulgaria479 Posts
On April 16 2024 20:44 BLinD-RawR wrote: This game is a must for anyone that loves PvZ. 30 minutes after the mid game constant nail-biting battles around the map where every time you would think Soulkey's macro advantage is too much for Snow and every time that assumption is just wrong. Snow's shuttle reaver micro is in another universe compared to anything anyone else is doing, unbelievable control. If it was any other protoss in this situation the game would have been over maybe 20 minutes earlier with a clear winner in Soulkey, just waiting for the tap out. Amazing game! | ||
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foxmeep
Australia2320 Posts
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Necro)Phagist(
Canada6644 Posts
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On April 16 2024 23:21 foxmeep wrote: There's a reason why Snow's ZvP is <40% guys.... Oh lord, the whining from 1500 ~ 1700 mmr protoss begins! Deducing that zvp is imba just from ASL games and not on 1000+ games online. There's a reason why JD whined because online proleagues are major source of income and you can't ALL IN all the time in zvp when you're playing 1000+ games rather than 10~20 games. Notice how 8/10 were all ins. Zerg has to all in to beat protoss. If it goes standard protoss wins. SK held it through with his superior mentality and better gambling strategy. | ||
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
Below 50% win rate for zvp for this map pool with 37% rate @ blitz. Zerg is just a strong tourney race but gets severely weakened online which is the bigger issue because online proleagues/tourneys are the biggest source of income for them. | ||
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Necro)Phagist(
Canada6644 Posts
On April 16 2024 21:35 BLinD-RawR wrote: here we go more bullshit. I blame you for this ZvZ final just saying. | ||
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Weasel-
Canada1556 Posts
And SoulKey kinda outplayed himself there in the Neo Dark Origin game, after defending the cannon rush he still went for his prepared allin and it cost him. | ||
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townhouse
United States25 Posts
On Citadel, SK went for a 2nd main base immediately, signaling he wouldn't mind another macro game, and Snow responded with speed lot timing into reaver bust timing - signaling he would. Same thing on Radeon, except Snow responded with extra greed, refusing to put down a cannon in order to gain an econ advantage early and avoid the hive tech hell zerg later, only for SK to notice this and punish his greed. Yet Snow's late game PvZ is actually one of his strengths, and his valiant effort on Blitz Y showed this. I think if he had the mental to be encouraged instead of discouraged by that game, things could have gone differently. Of course Troy was just a pure mind game YOLO from SK. | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2230 Posts
EXACTLY | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49993 Posts
On April 16 2024 23:50 Necro)Phagist( wrote: I blame you for this ZvZ final just saying. Snow was always the better bet over sharp. | ||
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Necro)Phagist(
Canada6644 Posts
On April 17 2024 01:25 BLinD-RawR wrote: Snow was always the better bet over sharp. I know but I need someone to blame for this travesty now so I'm using you as the scapegoat xD | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands757 Posts
On April 16 2024 23:21 foxmeep wrote: There's a reason why Snow's ZvP is <40% guys.... Snow vs Zerg since 2022 in online competition stands at 1,123 wins, 853 losses. Stop talking out your ass. | ||
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Malongo
Chile3472 Posts
On April 16 2024 23:38 Shinokuki wrote: Oh lord, the whining from 1500 ~ 1700 mmr protoss begins! Deducing that zvp is imba just from ASL games and not on 1000+ games online. There's a reason why JD whined because online proleagues are major source of income and you can't ALL IN all the time in zvp when you're playing 1000+ games rather than 10~20 games. Notice how 8/10 were all ins. Zerg has to all in to beat protoss. If it goes standard protoss wins. SK held it through with his superior mentality and better gambling strategy. It is easy to have a better gambling strategy when you are the one watching the map every time while keeping your opponent guessing. I agree with you: games on proleague are a different class because you can't really gamble when you are throwing your whole team's chances in 1 game. Box series will always favor zerg precisely because they have a way better gambling pattern with better chances. | ||
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prion_
65 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/002/143/155/d86.png) | ||
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Soft_General_5023
68 Posts
https://vod.afreecatv.com/player/122116079?change_second=6129 snow was convinced he got it he even shuttled probes in | ||
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G5
United States2893 Posts
On April 16 2024 23:38 Shinokuki wrote: Oh lord, the whining from 1500 ~ 1700 mmr protoss begins! Deducing that zvp is imba just from ASL games and not on 1000+ games online. There's a reason why JD whined because online proleagues are major source of income and you can't ALL IN all the time in zvp when you're playing 1000+ games rather than 10~20 games. Notice how 8/10 were all ins. Zerg has to all in to beat protoss. If it goes standard protoss wins. SK held it through with his superior mentality and better gambling strategy. This was just... wow. Zerg has to all-in to beat Protoss? Won with better gambling strategy? Complaining that there might be a scenario where you can't all-in Protoss all of the time? Scoffing at people deducing that ZvP is imba from consistent results from the top league in the world? Just... wow dude... That has to be one of the biggest blind Zerg defender posts I've ever seen. Also, why does whining right now concern you at all? You just saw the more impressive player lose. You saw the winner win with a ton of all-ins that lead to shitty games to watch and because of his shitty to watch all-ins, we get a mirror match up final. What fan wouldn't be upset? If there's a somewhat reasonable time to whine as a fan, it's now. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21538 Posts
On April 17 2024 03:45 Soft_General_5023 wrote: I think it was less confidence and more that he had to. If he didn't get the nexus down he loses so go all in. And he lostin game 3 snow managed to get 4 reavers in island expansion only to be out of minerals to build scarabs for a few seconds and all reavers died https://vod.afreecatv.com/player/122116079?change_second=6129 snow was convinced he got it he even shuttled probes in | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4110 Posts
I also think that ladders or tourneys that are played fast (several series per day) are kind of different game from the preparation tourneys and Terran was (is) the most beneficiary race for these type of tourneys | ||
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superjoppe
Sweden3683 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4896 Posts
If Snow had mined the gas. Maybe? If Snow's reavers didn't bug out like mad when he didn't have his shuttle anymore. Maybe? If Snow actually made a cannon when he read Soulkey like a book all game long. Maybe? Fast lair Lurker was absolutely beautiful by Soulkey, and taking the island was smart, but didn't feel unexpected knowing Soulkey's play style. He was the god of 3H 2nd nat into 4 base turtle (and he still is). ZvZ finals is shit for ASL, but hopefully not for us! | ||
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Simplistik
1984 Posts
*sigh* | ||
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On April 17 2024 03:51 G5 wrote: This was just... wow. Zerg has to all-in to beat Protoss? Won with better gambling strategy? Complaining that there might be a scenario where you can't all-in Protoss all of the time? Scoffing at people deducing that ZvP is imba from consistent results from the top league in the world? Just... wow dude... That has to be one of the biggest blind Zerg defender posts I've ever seen. Also, why does whining right now concern you at all? You just saw the more impressive player lose. You saw the winner win with a ton of all-ins that lead to shitty games to watch and because of his shitty to watch all-ins, we get a mirror match up final. What fan wouldn't be upset? If there's a somewhat reasonable time to whine as a fan, it's now. Whining that there will be zvz is fine. Whining that zvp is somehow imba and that it needs even more buff to protoss next ASL Map pool is wrong. It looks like we're headed that way next ASL to prevent zerg from winning it 3x in a row. You actually hear a lot about talks of zvp being a timing/all in focused strategy nowadays from lot of zerg pros. The main essence is that zerg has to abuse lack of scouting info via good ling micro or hit protoss when its weak (when they're transitioning to 3rd gas) If protoss is left to macro and it goes standard then protoss usually wins. This is a common sentiment among all pros. However you can't abuse this aspect all the time online and can't gamble as much which is the reason for most top tier protoss having positive win rate vs top tier zergs. Also, Mini should've won vs soulkey anyways but he threw so many games... Snow can't win these tournaments. He's way too of a standard player so I'd say soulkey is more impressive than snow, considering he 2-5'd snow 2x online in the past 2 weeks and is about to win 2 asls. | ||
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foxmeep
Australia2320 Posts
On April 17 2024 01:40 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: Snow vs Zerg since 2022 in online competition stands at 1,123 wins, 853 losses. Stop talking out your ass. This is ASL? | ||
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foxmeep
Australia2320 Posts
On April 16 2024 23:38 Shinokuki wrote: Oh lord, the whining from 1500 ~ 1700 mmr protoss begins! Deducing that zvp is imba just from ASL games and not on 1000+ games online. There's a reason why JD whined because online proleagues are major source of income and you can't ALL IN all the time in zvp when you're playing 1000+ games rather than 10~20 games. Notice how 8/10 were all ins. Zerg has to all in to beat protoss. If it goes standard protoss wins. SK held it through with his superior mentality and better gambling strategy. Who's whining? I meant having sick micro (especially reaver control) doesn't win you PvZ. Snow's style works in PvP and PvT, but not in PvZ. Doesn't mean he's bad by any means but he can't cut it with the top Zergs. He lost game 4 because he built 2 robos, and he lost game 5 because he made a poor read and was wrong (2 stargates vs no mutas). He built a pylon and cancelled two cannons game 1 and still won. Building one extra cannon at his nat game 5 isn't instantly game over for him, but it does stop the lurker all in. | ||
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Smorrie
Netherlands2922 Posts
Half of the RO8 bracket was populated by Protoss. Both Mini & Snow had a very competitive series vs last season's champ. I think Protoss has been doing fine. The greatest of tournaments are made by great story lines. Hero has been destroying all the opposition and is a worthy finalist. The question remains whether he could've beaten Snow as well, but together with SK they undeniably are the top 3 players at this moment. Mirror matchups don't make for the most exciting finals, but from SK's perspective, if he is able to make it through Bisu, Mini, Snow & Hero, he really earned that 2nd title. He dodged ZvT (aside from Mong), but last season he fought his way through JyJ & Rush. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia360 Posts
And ZvZ is crap for the viewers, an utterly broken matchup that brings negative prospects for bw future. | ||
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Simplistik
1984 Posts
Actually, I think that Snow was behind in all six games. He won the first two games through miraculous micro-brilliance on a level we rarely get to see. And he couldn't quite reproduce it in the last two games. In game 3 he got out-positioned, made some mistake with his gas mining and couldn't overcome those disadvantages. I would expect the Zerg builds in the first two games to have solid winrates over Snow's particular openings. | ||
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Galacsia
Chile157 Posts
Where's Nirli so we can celebrate Snow's demise? | ||
IntoTheWow
is awesome32273 Posts
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mOnion
United States5655 Posts
I can’t believe how stale this matchup is to this day. It’s just blind Protoss having no idea what’s coming after ling speed no matter what they do So sad | ||
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ruhtraeel
Canada117 Posts
On April 16 2024 23:21 foxmeep wrote: There's a reason why Snow's ZvP is <40% guys.... I will say, I was expecting Snow to get rolled pretty hard today, but he played insanely well the first two games and far exceeded my expectations. He's managed to finally figure out ways to use his crazy Reaver micro in PvZ, similar to his other matchups. He's come a long way since dropping out of ASL from Ggaemo That being said, yes, his ZvP in ASL is the weakest out of all the top 6 Protosses (Bisu, Mini, Best, Shuttle, Rain). It seems like every championship level Protoss has one matchup that isn't quite at the level of their other ones, with Bisu and Mini probably being the most complete, but Bisu's PvT being a tad shaky at times and Mini recently trading his PvZ performance for better PvT performance | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands757 Posts
On April 17 2024 07:57 ruhtraeel wrote: I will say, I was expecting Snow to get rolled pretty hard today, but he played insanely well the first two games and far exceeded my expectations. He's managed to finally figure out ways to use his crazy Reaver micro in PvZ, similar to his other matchups. He's come a long way since dropping out of ASL from Ggaemo That being said, yes, his ZvP in ASL is the weakest out of all the top 6 Protosses (Bisu, Mini, Best, Shuttle, Rain). It seems like every championship level Protoss has one matchup that isn't quite at the level of their other ones, with Bisu and Mini probably being the most complete, but Bisu's PvT being a tad shaky at times and Mini recently trading his PvZ performance for better PvT performance Snow has stronger ZvP than any of the names you mentioned(at least in online play). | ||
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Lazyer
United States341 Posts
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inflection
57 Posts
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Gippy
10 Posts
You really wanted Snow to try DAs in game 3? In order for Feedback/Maelstrom to be considered, it must be more viable than Psi Storm. Psi Storm is just the more versatile all-purpose spell, and HTs cost 50/150 compared to the DA at 250/200. HTs can also become Archons once their energy is spent, which Snow did often, while the DA just sits there looking cute for a few minutes. That's enough time for the position to potentially collapse. | ||
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ruhtraeel
Canada117 Posts
On April 17 2024 09:15 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: Snow has stronger ZvP than any of the names you mentioned(at least in online play). Unfortunately, when it matters most, he just doesn't deliver. My expectations of him every ASL is similar to Best (my favourite player) where I know on paper he should beat people like Sharp and Mind, but I will always expect them to be knocked out earlier, and would be pleasantly surprised if they made it further than ro8/ro4. It's sort of funny that most people claim Best's PvT is his best matchup, when he's choked more PvTs than PvZs. PvZ is secretly his best matchup in ASL, so I almost expect Best to choke in PvTs now and do better in PvZs, and I'll always expect Snow to choke in PvZ On April 17 2024 10:44 inflection wrote: As amazing as Korean pro players are it's incredible that they can't figure out the dark archon is good. Playing against defilers without using feedback late game PvZ against plague is like playing against defilers without using irradiate against swarm in TvZ.... And don't even get me started on maelstrom lol.. My theory is that they're generally shy and afraid that if they try a bold new strategy and it doesn't work they'll be ridiculed.. Best has used them enough to make others use them occasionally now in tournaments (I can't remember if it was Mini or Bisu who also used them this season) | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19214 Posts
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Ideas
United States8078 Posts
On April 17 2024 01:41 Malongo wrote: It is easy to have a better gambling strategy when you are the one watching the map every time while keeping your opponent guessing. I agree with you: games on proleague are a different class because you can't really gamble when you are throwing your whole team's chances in 1 game. Box series will always favor zerg precisely because they have a way better gambling pattern with better chances. Totally agree with this. In longer BoX series, zerg has advantage because they have way more early game gambles to take. Not that it would be a total fix but I wish ASL would go back to Bo5s only for Ro4 and final. Just seems like Bo7 is a bit too many chances for cheesey zerg gambles. | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2230 Posts
fuck off, accept the fact that all of you is 400+ mmr higher that if u played t or p. 2200 z = 1800 toss. | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2230 Posts
On April 17 2024 10:44 inflection wrote: As amazing as Korean pro players are it's incredible that they can't figure out the dark archon is good. Playing against defilers without using feedback late game PvZ against plague is like playing against defilers without using irradiate against swarm in TvZ.... And don't even get me started on maelstrom lol.. My theory is that they're generally shy and afraid that if they try a bold new strategy and it doesn't work they'll be ridiculed.. i agree with da being underused late game, but that doesnt. change the fact that till p can stablish 3 gas, he is really close to die or getting so behind that is 80/20 by the time z is getting defiler... against most z builds p is really storm dependant, he cant survive mid game battles with shitty storm positioning, that makes protoss army very inefective money wise vs z comp, protoss is using most of his gas in two units that, if microed badly, become negative ROI, (ob/ht). so its very easy for good zerg players to make protoss waste tons of gas, delaying upgrades or tech switch. z gas is very effective all game long, only time he wastes gas is with bad muta switch or careless scourge control... | ||
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inflection
57 Posts
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foxmeep
Australia2320 Posts
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Terrorbladder
2717 Posts
On April 17 2024 03:45 Soft_General_5023 wrote: Fenix psi blade moment.in game 3 snow managed to get 4 reavers in island expansion only to be out of minerals to build scarabs for a few seconds and all reavers died https://vod.afreecatv.com/player/122116079?change_second=6129 snow was convinced he got it he even shuttled probes in | ||
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TMNT
2559 Posts
On April 17 2024 13:24 foxmeep wrote: It's pretty sad how people think ZvP is some imba matchup when literally every single PvZ this ASL other than vs Hero or SK was won by Protoss. There are only 3 other notable PvZ games this season which don't have Hero and Soulkey involved. Action losing to Snow and Best, and JD losing to Shuttle. ZvP being Zerg favored was concluded 20 years ago. And how about other ASLs. Your logic is funny. | ||
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On April 17 2024 14:35 TMNT wrote: There are only 3 other notable PvZ games this season which don't have Hero and Soulkey involved. Action losing to Snow and Best, and JD losing to Shuttle. ZvP being Zerg favored was concluded 20 years ago. And how about other ASLs. Your logic is funny. Like I've been saying.. ASL ZvP is imba due to the nature of the match up and the stakes involved. Online is a different matter and you know this TMNT. | ||
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TMNT
2559 Posts
Historically Bisu has always been the only one who has good record vs Zerg (online) and Snow has only risen to his level since last year so that's more about himself, not the matchup. Mind that they both have negative records vs Soma. I think you're beating the "ZvP doesn't favor Zerg" drum too much recently but essentially it comes down to the fact that Zerg has lost Soma to the military. I'm sure Terran and Protoss would look like shit if Snow and Light stopped playing. Here's a stats some may find surprised to see: who is 38% vs Soulkey and 29% vs Soma since July 2023? You'd think it must be someone like Shuttle or Stork. No, it's Mini. | ||
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foxmeep
Australia2320 Posts
On April 17 2024 15:27 TMNT wrote: They're more favored in a BoX series in tournaments but Zerg is still holding a positive record against Protoss online and has been for years. Historically Bisu has always been the only one who has good record vs Zerg (online) and Snow has only risen to his level since last year so that's more about himself, not the matchup. Mind that they both have negative records vs Soma. I think you're beating the "ZvP doesn't favor Zerg" drum too much recently but essentially it comes down to the fact that Zerg has lost Soma to the military. I'm sure Terran and Protoss would look like shit if Snow and Light stopped playing. No one in their right mind is saying it isn't (very slightly) favoured, but people make it out to be like 60/40 when the reality is it is closer to 51-52/48-49. SK was simply the better player on the day. Snow wasn't "forced" into anything due to his race. | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2230 Posts
imagine pvt 4 gate goon all in working 52% of the time vs terran and if it doesnt work, you can still manage to get into decent midgame position or the same situation with darktemplar rush... is not a skill issue, is that z>p, period. any toss with 50%++ win rate pvz is a super hero at pro level. atm i can think of bisu and snow with 50%+ winrate vs z, but are the other protoss pros just bad? or it just happens that all zerg pros are some super genius zvp players for like 20+ years? | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia12999 Posts
On April 17 2024 13:24 foxmeep wrote: It's pretty sad how people think ZvP is some imba matchup when literally every single PvZ this ASL other than vs Hero or SK was won by Protoss. I think some matchups in BW are a bit imba. Not by much but generally I think the T>Z>P still holds weight to this day. But as Bisu said a long time ago, skill matters most. Snow didn't lose this game because of his race. SK was just better. | ||
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coldbluts
1 Post
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Magic Powers
Austria3734 Posts
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Nirli
Bulgaria361 Posts
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sas.Sziky
Hungary275 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19214 Posts
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Smorrie
Netherlands2922 Posts
SK focused on restricting Snow's scouting ability througout the whole series while throwing a variety of threats at him. Shine consistently uses crazy all-in builds all the time. ZeLoT is all-in every single game. If it was that easy they would've surely won some ASL titles already. Since they aren't beating your favorite players nobody cares either. | ||
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moktira
Ireland1543 Posts
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bw2ku
15 Posts
On April 17 2024 19:58 Magic Powers wrote: The fact that Snow was eliminated by SK isn't surprising. SK is a beast of a player with an incredible mindset, and yesterday he made the comeback of his career. After game two his theoretical odds were somewhere in the 20% region, yet he didn't collapse under the pressure. That's the most noteworthy thing about the match. Not PvZ imbalances, not Snow's failure to advance. SK should be the talk of the day. This 100%. Instead of attempting to downplay how monstrous Soulkey played (especially after the first 2 losses) vs the force that is Snow, he should be celebrated. So much unwarranted salt. | ||
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Brett
Australia3820 Posts
In the history of BW starleagues (MSL, OSL, ASL), protoss has won 17 finals, terran 34, and zerg 27 (including ASL 17). If you look at results from just the past 20 years, protoss has won 10, terran 26 and zerg 27 (lol) The game cant, won't and shouldn't be changed at this point, but the fact people still think that protoss is just as good as T/Z but the best protoss players just 'suck for some reason' compared to the other races' best players is hilarious. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19214 Posts
On April 17 2024 21:59 moktira wrote: As disappointed as I am in that, and those quick last 2 games in particular, I just want to say what a fantastic commentator Ret was and I hope we hear him more frequently. Agreed. It was awesome to hear from Ret. I'd love to see a three way cast with him back in during the Finals. All casters have been fantastic this season! | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4168 Posts
On April 17 2024 23:54 Brett wrote: People can talk up individual players as much as they want, but this pattern has been in play for a long time now. In the history of BW starleagues (MSL, OSL, ASL), protoss has won 17 finals, terran 34, and zerg 27 (including ASL 17). If you look at results from just the past 20 years, protoss has won 10, terran 26 and zerg 27 (lol) The game cant, won't and shouldn't be changed at this point, but the fact people still think that protoss is just as good as T/Z but the best protoss players just 'suck for some reason' compared to the other races' best players is hilarious. This. This. And this once more. | ||
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On April 17 2024 23:54 Brett wrote: People can talk up individual players as much as they want, but this pattern has been in play for a long time now. In the history of BW starleagues (MSL, OSL, ASL), protoss has won 17 finals, terran 34, and zerg 27 (including ASL 17). If you look at results from just the past 20 years, protoss has won 10, terran 26 and zerg 27 (lol) The game cant, won't and shouldn't be changed at this point, but the fact people still think that protoss is just as good as T/Z but the best protoss players just 'suck for some reason' compared to the other races' best players is hilarious. Tourneys don't matter anymore for these progamers. Protoss is the best race online which is favorable for current meta. | ||
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On April 17 2024 16:20 XenOsky wrote: the problem is not %, is the fact that zvp gameplay feels toxic as fuck if ure toss... imagine pvt 4 gate goon all in working 52% of the time vs terran and if it doesnt work, you can still manage to get into decent midgame position or the same situation with darktemplar rush... is not a skill issue, is that z>p, period. any toss with 50%++ win rate pvz is a super hero at pro level. atm i can think of bisu and snow with 50%+ winrate vs z, but are the other protoss pros just bad? or it just happens that all zerg pros are some super genius zvp players for like 20+ years? There are many toss at 50+ win rate.. Snow was something like 70% win rate in March and Min/Bisu also have great win rates. They even say PvT is harder than PvZ. I can't take you seriously anymore. You're a foreigner who is not in the korean scene so I get that you don't know what's going on. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6511 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/WWTrGeI.gif) | ||
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RJBTV
194 Posts
On April 18 2024 00:27 Shinokuki wrote: Tourneys don't matter anymore for these progamers. Protoss is the best race online which is favorable for current meta. Online is where 99.9% of competition happens. Snow(and Light and soma) has been the best online player since mid 2022. But Offline is the biggest chunk of cash and the best advertisement for one's brand. In offline Soulkey is without a doubt the most clutch from behind player. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6511 Posts
On April 18 2024 01:12 RJBTV wrote: Online is where 99.9% of competition happens. Snow(and soma) has been the best online player since mid 2022. But Offline is the biggest chunk of cash and the best advertisement for one's brand. In offline Soulkey is without a doubt the most clutch from behind player. People dont praise enough how icy SK is offline. He did it in SC2 0-3 vs Innovation and did it multiple times in ASL too. Guy is Jordan offline. I dont think he ever loss a final offline actually. | ||
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RJBTV
194 Posts
On April 18 2024 01:16 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: People dont praise enough how icy SK is offline. He did it in SC2 0-3 vs Innovation and did it multiple times in ASL too. Guy is Jordan offline. I dont think he ever loss a final offline actually. I used to praise JYJ for being stone ice cold too but Soulkey brings it to a whole other level of ice cold. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia360 Posts
Precisely! BW is imbalanced at the very top, no other game would go unpatched which such ridiculous numbers for 1 of the 3 races, not to mention the existence of a completely broken mirror that only some bw fanatics but no casual viewer wants to watch. | ||
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Ideas
United States8078 Posts
On April 18 2024 01:16 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: People dont praise enough how icy SK is offline. He did it in SC2 0-3 vs Innovation and did it multiple times in ASL too. Guy is Jordan offline. I dont think he ever loss a final offline actually. True. If his ZvZ was better he might have a few more golds tbh. Although to be fair you could say that about a lot of players with 1 particular MU. | ||
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Ideas
United States8078 Posts
On April 18 2024 01:33 Rainalcar wrote: Precisely! BW is imbalanced at the very top, no other game would go unpatched which such ridiculous numbers for 1 of the 3 races, not to mention the existence of a completely broken mirror that only some bw fanatics but no casual viewer wants to watch. I would be interested in seeing compiled Bo5 and Bo7 win percentages offline in PvZ for OSL/MSL/ASL. I know that between all the finals, Protoss has only ever beaten zerg 3 times (first 2 OSL finals in 2000, then bisu over savior in 2007). Could do it myself but I'm too lazy lol. | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4896 Posts
On April 18 2024 01:42 Ideas wrote: I would be interested in seeing compiled Bo5 and Bo7 win percentages offline in PvZ for OSL/MSL/ASL. I know that between all the finals, Protoss has only ever beaten zerg 3 times (first 2 OSL finals in 2000, then bisu over savior in 2007). Could do it myself but I'm too lazy lol. Don't let your ideas be ideas, Ideas. Just. Do it! | ||
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ThunderJunk
United States671 Posts
I'm stoked for Hero and Soulkey. They both deserve their spots and I'm going to enjoy watching the finals. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands757 Posts
On April 18 2024 01:54 ThunderJunk wrote: You people are actually dumb - "BOO, ZvZ finals". The better players win on the merits of their efforts and you're sitting back here asking for match fixing. Idiots. I'm stoked for Hero and Soulkey. They both deserve their spots and I'm going to enjoy watching the finals. I am taking HerO over Soulkey for the ZvZ finals. | ||
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Miragee
8478 Posts
I'm bummed about the result though. The last two games felt really cheap and were not a worthy ending to an otherwise amazing series. Soulkey is one of my favourite players so I'm not sad to see him in the finals. However, I did root for Snow to finally get a title under his belt. I don't think he has ever been in better shape in an ASL. I also don't like the idea of a ZvZ final. This will be super boring for sure and I'm not sure I even want to catch it live. Both, Hero and Soulkey, obviously deserve to be in the finals because they both played super solid for the entirety of this ASL. However, the same can be said about Sharp (except for g2-5 in the semi final tbh) and Snow and I think any combination of 2 out of those 4 players would have been way more entertaining to watch than Hero vs Soulkey. Oh well, it is how it is. On April 17 2024 21:59 moktira wrote: As disappointed as I am in that, and those quick last 2 games in particular, I just want to say what a fantastic commentator Ret was and I hope we hear him more frequently. This so much, I hope he reads this! Really enjoyed his casting! StarcastTV is generally doing a great job (again) of course. But Ret's calm analytical style without being "dry" is something I personally really enjoy and I felt he really synergised well with Gypsy (and likely would with Nyoken as well). | ||
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ruhtraeel
Canada117 Posts
On April 18 2024 03:17 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: I am taking HerO over Soulkey for the ZvZ finals. Agreed, I think Hero's ZvZ is top notch, whereas Soulkey has recently upped us ZvZ to be respectable but not top tier Soulkey and JyJ both have killer mentality. I think if JyJ continues practicing, he could overtake Light soon in terms of offline results. There's something about his personality that you can see in his interviews (similar to Effort) where he's not afraid of anyone and exudes confidence. | ||
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Muff2n
United Kingdom250 Posts
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RogerChillingworth
2827 Posts
Honestly, so patient to be maxed for several minutes as zerg and do nothing. Really impressive play all around. | ||
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protossftw
3 Posts
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SerpentFlame
415 Posts
Every whine about gambling only applies to the 4 games where rushes were used, which split 2-2. In the non-gamble games, Soulkey beat Snow 2-0 by a hair. Can't blame PvZ imba for snow not mining the fourth gas in game 3. Do better. Whether PvZ is imbalanced or not in the early game had absolutely nothing to do with the results of the series. SK won the macro games. (The maps have P > Z anyways). I don't understand why people can't credit both players for playing well, and SK for playing better. If SK won four rushes in a row, fine. But he didn't. He won on the macro games. | ||
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SerpentFlame
415 Posts
In those cases, youe either get the PvZ balance whiners or the ZvP balance whiners come out in full force depending on who wins. If snow won Games 3 and 4 in a 4-0 sweep (a few coin flips in Snow's favor, and he could've done it!), the JD ZvP balance thread would explode about Protoss imbalance on the maps. Balance whiners won't rest unless its' 4-3, a 27.4% proposition. (Whether PvZ is imbalanced or not early-game doesn't matter for this result -- SK won the two longer games. What more do you want?) | ||
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Bonyth
Poland544 Posts
Second, people whine about the overall imbalance over the past 20+ years. Since you like statistics so much, if we have +/- 40% of the player pool (milions of players or more), if the game was perfectly balanced, shouldn't protoss have 40% of the trophies? I get it that it ultimately comes down to genius representatives of each race, but what are the odds for protoss to heave least of them. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3734 Posts
On April 18 2024 16:21 SerpentFlame wrote: If two players of equal skill play each other, the chance of getting a 4-2, 4-1, or 4-0 is 72.6%. In those cases, youe either get the PvZ balance whiners or the ZvP balance whiners come out in full force depending on who wins. If snow won Games 3 and 4 in a 4-0 sweep (a few coin flips in Snow's favor, and he could've done it!), the JD ZvP balance thread would explode about Protoss imbalance on the maps. Balance whiners won't rest unless its' 4-3, a 27.4% proposition. (Whether PvZ is imbalanced or not early-game doesn't matter for this result -- SK won the two longer games. What more do you want?) I think you're making a good point, but personally I give balance whiners even less credit: they always complain unless their favorite race wins, that's just how they are. | ||
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TMNT
2559 Posts
How coincidental is that, that all the top talents who play Protoss are just not as good as Zerg and Terran? In both SC1 and SC2, in all these years, Kespa or Afreeca, and it's also true when the talent pool expands to a global scale, not being restricted to just Korea, like what we're seeing in SC2. On April 18 2024 18:24 Magic Powers wrote: I think you're making a good point, but personally I give balance whiners even less credit: they always complain unless their favorite race wins, that's just how they are. Except that only Protoss whiners have the evidences to back up their claims. | ||
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sas.Sziky
Hungary275 Posts
On April 18 2024 16:59 Bonyth wrote: First, it doesn't matter if SK won macro games or short games; point is a point. And even long macro games roots start from the early-mid game. For example, if SK did a 973 where he did devastating damage, but not to the point where Snow would gg, and the game goes to 40 minutes, wouldnt in your opinion the early game was to blame for the loss? Second, people whine about the overall imbalance over the past 20+ years. Since you like statistics so much, if we have +/- 40% of the player pool (milions of players or more), if the game was perfectly balanced, shouldn't protoss have 40% of the trophies? I get it that it ultimately comes down to genius representatives of each race, but what are the odds for protoss to heave least of them. no pls :D this is a speculation. did you see Blitz game? was normal game no damage both sides. Soulkey plays in whole games around +30-50 apm ( i know it doesn matter if anyone has better mechanic but still ) Soulkey had 3 more base in late game ok let only 2, and cant win easily with 1a2a3a as zerg ?. Snow not minning gas, missing armor upgrade and maybe DA? and almost lost that game. whats wrong with Zerg side which is why imba the zerg? anyone please let me know  about statistic my opinion the next 10 years or ++ statistic just doesnt matter for my view, when protoss meta in pvz was 3 0 0 units, fast 3rd exp they were much more vulnerable then it was z>p. zerg close to same, yes more all in build because you dont wanna play normal game against protoss nowadays. I think nowadays again not really matter statistic because no players, they are old and etc.but honestly if peaople whos thinking z imba about this serias then starcraft lost forever in foreign scene and the old remains, we scold the other race everywhere like here, BSL chat ( the best ) ggs | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3734 Posts
On April 18 2024 18:32 TMNT wrote: There is obviously something in the fundamental design of the Starcraft franchise that makes Protoss weaker than the other races at the top level. Obviously not game breaking imbalance, but enough to show us a pattern at the top level. And the more telling thing is that pattern not only applies to the 20+ years of SC1. It extends to the 10+ years of SC2. How coincidental is that, that all the top talents who play Protoss are just not as good as Zerg and Terran? In both SC1 and SC2, in all these years, Kespa or Afreeca, and it's also true when the talent pool expands to a global scale, not being restricted to just Korea, like what we're seeing in SC2. Except that only Protoss whiners have the evidences to back up their claims. I disagree. Every race has one matchup that's in favor of the opposite race. We've had this discussion before though, and I got dogpiled for having an unpopular opinion. So I won't do that again. | ||
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Comedy
455 Posts
On April 18 2024 18:32 TMNT wrote: There is obviously something in the fundamental design of the Starcraft franchise that makes Protoss weaker than the other races at the top level. Obviously not game breaking imbalance, but enough to show us a pattern at the top level. And the more telling thing is that pattern not only applies to the 20+ years of SC1. It extends to the 10+ years of SC2. How coincidental is that, that all the top talents who play Protoss are just not as good as Zerg and Terran? In both SC1 and SC2, in all these years, Kespa or Afreeca, and it's also true when the talent pool expands to a global scale, not being restricted to just Korea, like what we're seeing in SC2. Except that only Protoss whiners have the evidences to back up their claims. sc2 actually does have a top protoss, maxpax, he just doesn't attend tournaments. Comparing both games is totally nonsensical in my opninion, they have nothing to do with each other, only in name. I know it's a wild argument but when you look at the easy protoss mechanics there may be an argument that players with fast hands would prefer to play terran or zerg, but especially terran because it did kind of dominate the game forever. So perhaps good players would think they would have the most succes with terran. It started with boxer, nada, iloveoov, all the way through now with last, rush, flash, but terran has always kind of dominated. So if you're a 14 year old starting this game and you want to become a champion what race makes sense to pick? Probably terran. | ||
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Bonyth
Poland544 Posts
On April 18 2024 18:39 sas.Sziky wrote: no pls :D this is a speculation. did you see Blitz game? was normal game no damage both sides. Soulkey plays in whole games around +30-50 apm ( i know it doesn matter if anyone has better mechanic but still ) Soulkey had 3 more base in late game ok let only 2, and cant win easily with 1a2a3a as zerg ?. Snow not minning gas, missing armor upgrade and maybe DA? and almost lost that game. whats wrong with Zerg side which is why imba the zerg? anyone please let me know about statistic my opinion the next 10 years or ++ statistic just doesnt matter for my view, when protoss meta in pvz was 3 0 0 units, fast 3rd exp they were much more vulnerable then it was z>p. zerg close to same, yes more all in build because you dont wanna play normal game against protoss nowadays. I think nowadays again not really matter statistic because no players, they are old and etc.but honestly if peaople whos thinking z imba about this serias then starcraft lost forever in foreign scene and the old remains, we scold the other race everywhere like here, BSL chat ( the best ) ggs nono, all i wanted to say, is that i don't like to seperate long games from short ones (both will give you a point in the series). I don't have any problems with game on Blitz. No problems with any other games either. Starcraft is like that, just a little imbalanced, but not to the point where u cannot make up for it with skill. | ||
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Soulforged
Latvia917 Posts
You'd just see even supplies at 12 minutes already, despite P massing on 2 bases. I think currently Zergs just don't produce and dodge storms like they used to, more so than any innovations from P side. As for the games in this series, eh. Could be a win for Snow if a few things played out differently, could also be a 4-0 for SK, the first 2 games were also pretty damn close. Personally predicted 4-2 SK just based on their recent head to head results, and that's it. | ||
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Comedy
455 Posts
On April 18 2024 19:18 Soulforged wrote: Huh. I may be completely wrong, but I think if we had some zergs at the old standard of mechanical practice today, there would not even be a midgame advantage for Protoss. You'd just see even supplies at 12 minutes already, despite P massing on 2 bases. I think currently Zergs just don't produce and dodge storms like they used to, more so than any innovations from P side. As for the games in this series, eh. Could be a win for Snow if a few things played out differently, could also be a 4-0 for SK, the first 2 games were also pretty damn close. Personally predicted 4-2 SK just based on their recent head to head results, and that's it. zerg has maximized macro. its not like they could produce faster with more mechanics. they are limited by income and larva available, not by speed. Insane take lol | ||
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TMNT
2559 Posts
On April 18 2024 18:53 Comedy wrote: I know it's a wild argument but when you look at the easy protoss mechanics there may be an argument that players with fast hands would prefer to play terran or zerg, but especially terran because it did kind of dominate the game forever. So perhaps good players would think they would have the most succes with terran. It started with boxer, nada, iloveoov, all the way through now with last, rush, flash, but terran has always kind of dominated. So if you're a 14 year old starting this game and you want to become a champion what race makes sense to pick? Probably terran. Problem is (1) this is just pure speculation with no evidence to back it up, (2) when you look at the few players at the top we have both fast and slow players for each race. Soulkey is actually one of the slowest players lol. Mind has circa 200 apm as Terran. Light is not slow but also not fast at all. Mini and Bisu are one the fastest players in the history of the game, (3) fast doesn't mean good. But more importantly, didn't you just practically say that Terran is stronger in these two paragraphs? | ||
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Soulforged
Latvia917 Posts
zerg has maximized macro. its not like they could produce faster with more mechanics. they are limited by income and larva available, not by speed. Insane take lol For macro, obviously meant it in a sense that they're getting away with less, for various reasons. If you need some examples...how often do we see these days random single zealots sniping drones, sometimes even when there's not much action going on? Overmade lings that still miss zealots getting behind mineral line? etc I'm aware that this argument also applies to P players, e.g. while we get to see Snow run around with a scout probe while microing offensive zealots while defending his natural, he's also the type to float minerals during mid game & so on. But I figure if both were pushed to previous standards of practice, Zerg would have more upside. | ||
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Malongo
Chile3472 Posts
On April 18 2024 16:12 SerpentFlame wrote: The balance whine about PvZ is ridiculous. SK lost two fast games, won two fast games, and the two decider games were > 100 supply games where Snow didn't have to guess about SK at all. Every whine about gambling only applies to the 4 games where rushes were used, which split 2-2. In the non-gamble games, Soulkey beat Snow 2-0 by a hair. Can't blame PvZ imba for snow not mining the fourth gas in game 3. Do better. Whether PvZ is imbalanced or not in the early game had absolutely nothing to do with the results of the series. SK won the macro games. (The maps have P > Z anyways). I don't understand why people can't credit both players for playing well, and SK for playing better. If SK won four rushes in a row, fine. But he didn't. He won on the macro games. Yes but games aren't played in a vacuum, pro players have several times said how the way they play influences their future play. Gambling strategies or timed all ins influence every single map and choice precisely because they are always possible, even if the game later turns into a long macro game. If Protoss knew there was not going to be any aggression they would never start with a forge to begin with. It is boring as an spectator to see only one side being able to pick the dice on demand while the other side is always playing guess the build and gets zero advantage even when the guess is right. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3734 Posts
On April 18 2024 20:55 Malongo wrote: Yes but games aren't played in a vacuum, pro players have several times said how the way they play influences their future play. Gambling strategies or timed all ins influence every single map and choice precisely because they are always possible, even if the game later turns into a long macro game. If Protoss knew there was not going to be any aggression they would never start with a forge to begin with. It is boring as an spectator to see only one side being able to pick the dice on demand while the other side is always playing guess the build and gets zero advantage even when the guess is right. Protoss does get an advantage if they guess right. By far the biggest factor in the ZvP imbalance is the first few minutes of the game, where zerg can overwhelm the protoss defense in various different ways, but protoss generally can't do the same to zerg. After those few minutes, protoss maintains an advantage throughout most of the middle game. This proves that if protoss guess right or defend well, they definitely do get rewarded for it. It's just not an instant win button. | ||
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Soulforged
Latvia917 Posts
Something you see a lot from SK gameplay is that once he's behind due to early game BO choices he'll just allin. And the success rate of an allin is not very dependent on the openers, like a few worker advantage is not going to impact it as much as just whether you guessed correctly or not. | ||
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TMNT
2559 Posts
On April 18 2024 21:03 Magic Powers wrote: Protoss does get an advantage if they guess right. By far the biggest factor in the ZvP imbalance is the first few minutes of the game, where zerg can overwhelm the protoss defense in various different ways, but protoss generally can't do the same to zerg. After those few minutes, prot oss maintains an advantage throughout most of the middle game. This proves that if protoss guess right or defend well, they definitely do get rewarded for it. It's just not an instant win button. Two things: - If Protoss guesses wrong, it's 100% dead. But if Protoss guesses right, it's not 100% dead for Zerg. How many percent of chance does Zerg have to turn the game? 10, 20, 30%? Depends on what type of aggression and how much damage they deal. But the exact number doesn't matter. It's still more than 0. You can literally see an example of this in game 4 Citadel. After the attempted Hydra bust that if Snow didn't defend well, he would have died, Soulkey backed off for a 4 base macro game while Snow was stuck with 6 redundant Cannons. I'm not even sure we can say Snow was ahead at that point (Simplistik made this point a few pages ago), but for the sake of this argument let's just say Snow is 60/40 to win from there. Zerg would take that odds all day. Any races would take that odd after they attempt to end the other race but can't. - I'd rather have a game where I don't have to guess to survive, but rather rely on my skill, i.e. if I'm good I hold 99% of the time and if I'm bad I die fair and square. Take no further comparison than TvP. Terran is weak and has limited scouting information in the early game while Protoss can throw a lot of things at them. But the Terran defense doesn't rely as much on guessing what the Protoss does. It's more about attention and execution. Building placement, laying mines, tank positioning, SCV pull,... stuff like that. For example, Snow's Reaver did game ending damage to Speed in Ro24 because he misplaced his Turrets, not because he had to guess if Snow was making Reavers or not. It's the equivalent of Protoss messing up their wall in PvZ really. If in PvZ, Protoss were put into a similar position as Terran in TvP, these talks would never have happened. | ||
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Comedy
455 Posts
On April 18 2024 22:26 TMNT wrote: Two things: - If Protoss guesses wrong, it's 100% dead. But if Protoss guesses right, it's not 100% dead for Zerg. How many percent of chance does Zerg have to turn the game? 10, 20, 30%? Depends on what type of aggression and how much damage they deal. But the exact number doesn't matter. It's still more than 0. You can literally see an example of this in game 4 Citadel. After the attempted Hydra bust that if Snow didn't defend well, he would have died, Soulkey backed off for a 4 base macro game while Snow was stuck with 6 redundant Cannons. I'm not even sure we can say Snow was ahead at that point (Simplistik made this point a few pages ago), but for the sake of this argument let's just say Snow is 60/40 to win from there. Zerg would take that odds all day. Any races would take that odd after they attempt to end the other race but can't. - I'd rather have a game where I don't have to guess to survive, but rather rely on my skill, i.e. if I'm good I hold 99% of the time and if I'm bad I die fair and square. Take no further comparison than TvP. Terran is weak and has limited scouting information in the early game while Protoss can throw a lot of things at them. But the Terran defense doesn't rely as much on guessing what the Protoss does. It's more about attention and execution. Building placement, laying mines, tank positioning, SCV pull,... stuff like that. For example, Snow's Reaver did game ending damage to Speed in Ro24 because he misplaced his Turrets, not because he had to guess if Snow was making Reavers or not. It's the equivalent of Protoss messing up their wall in PvZ really. If in PvZ, Protoss were put into a similar position as Terran in TvP, these talks would never have happened. You play protoss right? | ||
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Miragee
8478 Posts
Nobody here plays BW anymore. We are just watching and moaning. | ||
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Gippy
10 Posts
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Sabu113
United States11046 Posts
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protossftw
3 Posts
Soulkey didn't win because of all-ins. As someone else pointed out, he only won 50% of the all-ins. In one of the macro games (#3), Snow forgot to mine the 4th gas for a long time, and in the 4th game, Snow could have played safe and start his cannon just 10 seconds earlier, let alone making one more, when Soulkey slipped in 4 zerglings in his main. | ||
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TMNT
2559 Posts
I played Terran. I presume that makes my arguments even more valid now. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13969 Posts
At first I didn't get the hype because it just looked like pure unadulterated dominance by Soulkey (which tbf is an impressive enough showcase to be worthy of adulation) but then the bridge siege? Dude...Soulkey's a genius, and Snow is a monster | ||
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RogerChillingworth
2827 Posts
JK don't love it. | ||
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Bisu-Fan
Russian Federation3329 Posts
On April 19 2024 00:18 Gippy wrote: It's too bad half of the comments are about PvZ balance. I don't see it that way, because I don't feel like Snow played his very best but had no hope due to "imbalance". Snow made enough unforced errors to affect the outcome. Do we even have this discussion if Snow didn't miss his gas in game 3, or if he didn't try some unusual reaver/archon bust w/o storm in game 4 (which surprised both English casting duos) instead of taking a third? Snow literally said in his stream after losing that he felt like he played around 30% of how he could have. Obviously he's a pro, but I don't think he nor his viewers were blaming imbalance much. Starting at viewer asks him out of 100 what his gameplay score was. He says 30% at 3:58 and then gets 30 balloons (3 dollars) in the next donation at 4:10. Then he goes like "actually i played a 500 out of 100 game" | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4168 Posts
From my personal point of view - TMNT is mopping the floor (respectfully, ofc) with his opponents so far. | ||
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RogerChillingworth
2827 Posts
On April 19 2024 02:24 M3t4PhYzX wrote: I'm actually really enjoying the discussion. It's quite civil, too. Fun to read. From my personal point of view - TMNT is mopping the floor (respectfully, ofc) with his opponents so far. Fair enough! ^_^ *fades into mist* | ||
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prosatan
Romania7793 Posts
On April 19 2024 02:24 M3t4PhYzX wrote: I'm actually really enjoying the discussion. It's quite civil, too. Fun to read. From my personal point of view - TMNT is mopping the floor (respectfully, ofc) with his opponents so far. I like to read it too  Long live BW !!! | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands757 Posts
On April 19 2024 02:24 M3t4PhYzX wrote: I'm actually really enjoying the discussion. It's quite civil, too. Fun to read. From my personal point of view - TMNT is mopping the floor (respectfully, ofc) with his opponents so far. TMNT has been blessed with the powers of opinions based on statistics. | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1597 Posts
Game 3: Mine gas and he has the army to take that extra base. Recall the island or main to force a reposition or total tech reset. Or just even play standard because at that point you've taken one extra base, and he was close to winning without it. Game 4: If he pushes bottom right he at the very least eliminates both bases. Maybe gets stuck in a base race but the reavers + cannons might handle it well enough. Game 5: Knowing rushes are popular on that map, just build the extra cannons. It is a big map, with a much higher lean towards you at least getting an even split of the map. You can blame balance or scouting or whatever, but all races take risks. A zerg makes sunkens when the terran pushes out, knowing that if they're made the terran can't break them, so they must turn around. Defaulting to adding a cannon or two extra when you lack scouting info is just safe play if you think you're the better player. | ||
Sigrun
United States1654 Posts
On April 18 2024 18:32 TMNT wrote: How coincidental is that, that all the top talents who play Protoss are just not as good as Zerg and Terran? They are though? The main problem is that there has never been a Protoss player that is exceedingly good at BOTH PvT and PvZ. Bisu had a nearly 65% winrate PvZ during Kespa era, but less than 60% PvT. Whereas Stork had 62% winrate PvT, but only 54% PvZ. The best players from other races are able to dominate all three matchups, but Protoss has been unable to produce a player that can do the same. So they're more likely to be eliminated from tournaments once they hit the race they're weak against (this is even without considering PvP in the mix). | ||
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Bonyth
Poland544 Posts
On April 19 2024 05:36 Sigrun wrote: They are though? The main problem is that there has never been a Protoss player that is exceedingly good at BOTH PvT and PvZ. Bisu had a nearly 65% winrate PvZ during Kespa era, but less than 60% PvT. Whereas Stork had 62% winrate PvT, but only 54% PvZ. The best players from other races are able to dominate all three matchups, but Protoss has been unable to produce a player that can do the same. So they're more likely to be eliminated from tournaments once they hit the race they're weak against (this is even without considering PvP in the mix). And what would the win rates vs other races be for terran and zerg race best representatives? | ||
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cheesehuehue
Vatican City State90 Posts
On April 19 2024 04:45 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: TMNT has been blessed with the powers of opinions based on statistics. You've got to be kidding me. A guy who is always misinterepreting statistics, or accepting them only when they agree with his a priori conclusions, and rejects them when they don't support his conclusions, a guy who doesn't even know what cherry picking is, and feels insulted because someone points out he he is cherry picking, is suddenly blessed with the powers of statistics???? You must be extremely uneducated to think someone who clearly knows nothing beyond basic high school level statistics is "blessed by the power of opinions based on statistics". This is the peak anti-intellectualism in the post-Trump era. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13969 Posts
On April 19 2024 06:43 cheesehuehue wrote: You've got to be kidding me. A guy who is always misinterepreting statistics, or accepting them only when they agree with his a priori conclusions, and rejects them when they don't support his conclusions, a guy who doesn't even know what cherry picking is, and feels insulted because someone points out he he is cherry picking, is suddenly blessed with the powers of statistics???? You must be extremely uneducated to think someone who clearly knows nothing beyond basic high school level statistics is "blessed by the power of opinions based on statistics". This is the peak anti-intellectualism in the post-Trump era. This reads like the Rick and Morty copypasta | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands757 Posts
On April 19 2024 06:35 Bonyth wrote: And what would the win rates vs other races be for terran and zerg race best representatives? Offline or Online? | ||
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TMNT
2559 Posts
On April 02 2024 04:25 TMNT wrote: They are sponsored games from China. Best and Light also did 18 games recently. They probably got a hefty sum from the sponsor so no reasons not to do it lol. It's not like they didn't play each other plenty of times before in Proleague or can't study each other's VODs. Btw + Show Spoiler + Snow won 5-4 yesterday but lost 3-6 today, but both days he went 2-4 down in the first place. That should tell you how the series would end if they play each other in the semi. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands757 Posts
On April 19 2024 07:56 TMNT wrote: For anyone wondering, this is the post that led to cheesehuehue's accusation of me "misinterpreting stats and cherry picking" : Not sure how this could be interpreted as cherry picking... is cheesehuehue alright? | ||
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Sigrun
United States1654 Posts
On April 19 2024 06:35 Bonyth wrote: And what would the win rates vs other races be for terran and zerg race best representatives? Going purely off Kespa era stats from Liquipedia, Jaedong was ZvT 56.7% ZvP 62.6%, which is pretty much the same as Bisu's stats, yet Jaedong has many more achievements despite this fact. So if it's not the matchups themselves, it might come down to something like Protoss being more vulnerable to mind games or cheeses in a bo format, or perhaps the maps have been unfavorable, which would be an interesting topic to research. I also looked up best Terran stats but Flash is an anomaly with 70% winrates in all matchups and the previous Terran bonjwa Nada was TvZ 69.7% TvP 63.7% which really just tells me that Terran being OP is the one thing both Zerg and Protoss can agree on | ||
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Smorrie
Netherlands2922 Posts
On April 19 2024 08:44 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: Not sure how this could be interpreted as cherry picking... is cheesehuehue alright? Mathematically cherry picking refers to selecting specific data points that support a particular conclusion while ignoring others that would contradict it. He was referring to the use of both Bo9's coincidentally getting to a score of 2-4 in the initial 6 games as statistical evidence for the outcome of the semis, which is a statistical fallacy and... factually cherry picking. Funny enough, the score did end up being 2-4 | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2230 Posts
On April 19 2024 00:18 Gippy wrote: It's too bad half of the comments are about PvZ balance. I don't see it that way, because I don't feel like Snow played his very best but had no hope due to "imbalance". Snow made enough unforced errors to affect the outcome. Do we even have this discussion if Snow didn't miss his gas in game 3, or if he didn't try some unusual reaver/archon bust w/o storm in game 4 (which surprised both English casting duos) instead of taking a third? snow played exceptionally well... he lost the series, but that was expected cause z>p | ||
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TMNT
2559 Posts
On April 19 2024 05:36 Sigrun wrote: They are though? The main problem is that there has never been a Protoss player that is exceedingly good at BOTH PvT and PvZ. Bisu had a nearly 65% winrate PvZ during Kespa era, but less than 60% PvT. Whereas Stork had 62% winrate PvT, but only 54% PvZ. The best players from other races are able to dominate all three matchups, but Protoss has been unable to produce a player that can do the same. So they're more likely to be eliminated from tournaments once they hit the race they're weak against (this is even without considering PvP in the mix). Almost all players, regardless of race, have one strong matchup and one weaker matchup. Normally the strong matchups are TvZ for Terran, ZvP for Zerg, PvT for Protoss. The only player who dominates in all 3 matchups is Flash. Aside from him, Terran doesn't have a player who dominates both TvP and TvZ. And Zerg doesn't have a player who dominates both ZvP and ZvT. The reason that Protoss is often thought to be the only race who suffers from this "phenomenon" is Bisu. He's the most famous one but also the outlier, as he goes against the rule for Protoss. His PvZ is way better than his PvT, so people tend to fall into this trap: oh Bisu is good at PvZ and bad at PvT, but Stork is good at PvT and bad at PvZ, so Protoss doesn't have a player who is good at both matchups. The funny thing is that Bisu's Kespa win rate in PvT was actually as good as Jaedong's ZvT (both 63% according to TLPD), while his PvZ is stronger than Jaedong's ZvP (71.5 to 67.4%). So Bisu's reputation of sucking at PvT seems more like a case of victim of his own success (in PvZ). Finally, maybe the reason that Jaedong had more success is down to their mirrors, as Jaedong's ZvZ was at 73% while Bisu's PvP was only 64%. | ||
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sM.Zik
Canada2544 Posts
On April 17 2024 19:58 Magic Powers wrote: The fact that Snow was eliminated by SK isn't surprising. SK is a beast of a player with an incredible mindset, and yesterday he made the comeback of his career. After game two his theoretical odds were somewhere in the 20% region, yet he didn't collapse under the pressure. That's the most noteworthy thing about the match. Not PvZ imbalances, not Snow's failure to advance. SK should be the talk of the day. Naw, the comeback of his career is still the 0-3 into 4-3 vs Innovation in that WCS or GSL finals on SC2. Soulkey does this pretty often, by the way (losing the first 2-3 games and then sweeping the rest). | ||
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Turbovolver
Australia2384 Posts
On April 19 2024 09:31 TMNT wrote: The funny thing is that Bisu's Kespa win rate in PvT was actually as good as Jaedong's ZvT (both 63% according to TLPD), while his PvZ is stronger than Jaedong's ZvP (71.5 to 67.4%). So Bisu's reputation of sucking at PvT seems more like a case of victim of his own success (in PvZ). Finally, maybe the reason that Jaedong had more success is down to their mirrors, as Jaedong's ZvZ was at 73% while Bisu's PvP was only 64%. People say Bisu is weak in PvT because they saw him too many times engage mid-late game in extremely clumsy fashion, stasising the front tanks and losing his whole army in the same situation where Stork would absolutely crush the T. I wasn't expecting his PvT stats to be that good, but he was certainly a strong player. I think there were quite fundamental holes in his PvT play though, at least back in the day. If his stats are that good, that just shows how strong other aspects of his game were. | ||
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TMNT
2559 Posts
Like, instead of engaging in the current discussion, be it heated or not, but it's still about Starcraft, they just make a lengthy post to have a go at another poster. Mind that the latter, cheesehuehue, is a new user, who literally made his ID based on the words used by Smorrie in a post arguing with me. Since then he has made 11 posts, of which 6 were solely used to attack me. They both like Zerg, seem to pop up in the forum at the same time, in the same thread, and back up each other. They write similarly, and even repeatedly use the same terms to attack me. They both acted hostile towards me first, then played victim later. This seems suspicious as fuck. . | ||
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TMNT
2559 Posts
On April 19 2024 08:44 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: Not sure how this could be interpreted as cherry picking... is cheesehuehue alright? Yeah but I think the bigger problem is, based on that guys post, BisuDagger probably has to go anti intellectualism supreme court for his crime in making | ||
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Smorrie
Netherlands2922 Posts
On April 19 2024 09:54 TMNT wrote: Okay. Any mods around here noticing that Smorrie and cheesehuehue tend to pop up in a thread to go off topic just to personally attack me? Like, instead of engaging in the current discussion, be it heated or not, but it's still about Starcraft, they just make a lengthy post to have a go at another poster. Mind that the latter, cheesehuehue, is a new user, who literally made his ID based on the words used by Smorrie in a post arguing with me. Since then he has made 11 posts, of which 6 were solely used to attack me. They both like Zerg, seem to pop up in the forum at the same time, in the same thread, and back up each other. They write similarly, and even repeatedly use the same terms to attack me. They both acted hostile towards me first, then played victim later. This seems suspicious as fuck. . What's the heck? Can you just get off my nuts. Since your deranged crusade I stopped from responding to any of your toxic posts. I'm surprised you didn't slip in another insults in this one. You were patronizing me from the very first time you responded to a post of mine. What is your problem. I did not respond to you and didn't address you. Stay in your lane and stop spreading your conspiracy ideas involving me. All this shit only lives in your own head. | ||
thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On April 19 2024 09:00 Sigrun wrote: Going purely off Kespa era stats from Liquipedia, Jaedong was ZvT 56.7% ZvP 62.6%, which is pretty much the same as Bisu's stats, yet Jaedong has many more achievements despite this fact. So if it's not the matchups themselves, it might come down to something like Protoss being more vulnerable to mind games or cheeses in a bo format, or perhaps the maps have been unfavorable, which would be an interesting topic to research. I also looked up best Terran stats but Flash is an anomaly with 70% winrates in all matchups and the previous Terran bonjwa Nada was TvZ 69.7% TvP 63.7% which really just tells me that Terran being OP is the one thing both Zerg and Protoss can agree on Like you said, JD was a workhorse for Oz in prologue so that's likely a factor. also ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/br6FvB6.jpeg) | ||
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TMNT
2559 Posts
On April 19 2024 10:27 Smorrie wrote: What's the heck? Can you just get off my nuts. Since your deranged crusade I stopped from responding to any of your toxic posts. I'm surprised you didn't slip in another insults in this one. You were patronizing me from the very first time you responded to a post of mine. What is your problem. I did not respond to you and didn't address you. Stay in your lane and stop spreading your conspiracy ideas involving me. All this shit only lives in your own head. Lol anyone with a functional brain here can see what you did there. You're siding with essentially a troll account who repeatedly attacked me, and now you have the audacity to ask me to stay in my lane? Then who did you address by using "he" in your previous post? As for patronising, you clearly started it first in this post and even acted mildly provocative before that. That's the "very first time" you mentioned. Maybe you had a concussion somewhere since. And talk about getting off your nuts, you got on my nuts first in the JD's reaction thread and you did it again here. Both times your posts have nothing to do with the active discussion in the threads, but everything to do with me. | ||
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CHEONSOYUN
517 Posts
the potency of the all ins zergs can field before corsair is able to scout in time for a response is strong + protoss has to rely on photon cannons to defend the all ins which zergs regularly abuse by not committing and continuing information denial. this is at the highest of high levels where zergs are just that good at executing the all ins and also being able to abuse the fog of war. | ||
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Turbovolver
Australia2384 Posts
On April 19 2024 13:04 CHEONSOYUN wrote: zvp is probably imbalanced at the early stages of the game due to the information denial zerg can have on protoss. the potency of the all ins zergs can field before corsair is able to scout in time for a response is strong + protoss has to rely on photon cannons to defend the all ins which zergs regularly abuse by not committing and continuing information denial. this is at the highest of high levels where zergs are just that good at executing the all ins and also being able to abuse the fog of war. Yeah I think this is basically it, although once Protoss moved on to also including gateway-first openers and playing more actively, the effects of this imbalance were cut down some. I think it felt even more like this in the past and that things have certainly improved at least somewhat. | ||
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Ty2
United States1434 Posts
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bochs
United States97 Posts
On April 19 2024 09:31 TMNT wrote: The only player who dominates in all 3 matchups is Flash. Aside from him, Terran doesn't have a player who dominates both TvP and TvZ. And Zerg doesn't have a player who dominates both ZvP and ZvT. Soulkey? I can hardly find anyone else who has better ZvP or ZvT win rates in bo games. | ||
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TMNT
2559 Posts
On April 19 2024 14:38 bochs wrote: Soulkey? I can hardly find anyone else who has better ZvP or ZvT win rates in bo games. You mean 2 matchups? Since Soulkey is famous for being weak in ZvZ but I think recently it has changed. Weird that his ZvZ during Kespa was 60% while now it's 49%. Not sure where we can find win rates for BO alone. But Kespa Soulkey reads 65% vP and 54% vT. Meanwhile modern Soulkey since 2021 is at 61% vP and 57% vT. So more or less stays true to the norms of Zerg: strong in ZvP and weaker in ZvT. Edit: if you take only offline tournaments (ASL + KSL) it's closer at 62.5% vP and 59.5% vT although the data was cut off after ASL16. After this season his ZvP win rate has increased a little bit. | ||
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prosatan
Romania7793 Posts
On April 19 2024 16:48 TMNT wrote: You mean 2 matchups? Since Soulkey is famous for being weak in ZvZ but I think recently it has changed. Weird that his ZvZ during Kespa was 60% while now it's 49%. Not sure where we can find win rates for BO alone. But Kespa Soulkey reads 65% vP and 54% vT. Meanwhile modern Soulkey since 2021 is at 61% vP and 57% vT. So more or less stays true to the norms of Zerg: strong in ZvP and weaker in ZvT. Edit: if you take only offline tournaments (ASL + KSL) it's closer at 62.5% vP and 59.5% vT although the data was cut off after ASL16. After this season his ZvP win rate has increased a little bit. TMNT do you think APM is relevant here ? SK is known for have small APM ( < 300 ). Maybe it is a factor in ZvZ idk... | ||
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ruhtraeel
Canada117 Posts
On April 18 2024 18:32 TMNT wrote: And Zerg doesn't have a player who dominates both ZvP and ZvT. Effort | ||
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Comedy
455 Posts
On April 19 2024 13:04 CHEONSOYUN wrote: zvp is probably imbalanced at the early stages of the game due to the information denial zerg can have on protoss. the potency of the all ins zergs can field before corsair is able to scout in time for a response is strong + protoss has to rely on photon cannons to defend the all ins which zergs regularly abuse by not committing and continuing information denial. this is at the highest of high levels where zergs are just that good at executing the all ins and also being able to abuse the fog of war. We saw in the series that snow does a very good job at decyphering it. If he sees early ling speed, he'll add cannon. Then his sair comes out in time to put 3rd, 4th cannon etc. He faced 2 hatch hydra bust and 3 hatch hydra bust and both times he survived with flying colors. He held the ling drop into mutas even after failing a cannon rush. He only failed to defend the ling lurker on troy which was difficult because snowkey had every bit of advantadge to make snow think that it was going to be 2 hatch muta again. Ro8 vs Mini as well as the game 1 experience. But overall, snow dealt excellently with the 'lack of scouting' from protoss, he just faltered in the mid and late game. (Not mining gas on 4th on blitz, as well as his approach to the game on citadel was just straight up bad.) | ||
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RJBTV
194 Posts
On April 19 2024 16:48 TMNT wrote: You mean 2 matchups? Since Soulkey is famous for being weak in ZvZ but I think recently it has changed. Weird that his ZvZ during Kespa was 60% while now it's 49%. Not sure where we can find win rates for BO alone. But Kespa Soulkey reads 65% vP and 54% vT. Meanwhile modern Soulkey since 2021 is at 61% vP and 57% vT. So more or less stays true to the norms of Zerg: strong in ZvP and weaker in ZvT. Edit: if you take only offline tournaments (ASL + KSL) it's closer at 62.5% vP and 59.5% vT although the data was cut off after ASL16. After this season his ZvP win rate has increased a little bit. Players now are honestly better than Kespa days. Mechically but specifically strategically, knowledge and experience. Things that were passable back then now are not. Bunch of players who didnt hit their skillcaps yet back in Kespa, and a bunch who did. Soulkey specifically plays strategically the smartest, which means the more time passes the better his playstyle becomes because everyone has capped their mechanics at this point. Only way to really get better at that point is better understanding of maps, situations, and strategy. In ZvZ is largely raw mechanics. You can see it in SKs play in tvz and pvz where he seems to avoid reallly intense and precise micro situations. | ||
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Miragee
8478 Posts
On April 19 2024 19:19 RJBTV wrote: Players now are honestly better than Kespa days. Mechically but specifically strategically, knowledge and experience. Things that were passable back then now are not. Bunch of players who didnt hit their skillcaps yet back in Kespa, and a bunch who did. Soulkey specifically plays strategically the smartest, which means the more time passes the better his playstyle becomes because everyone has capped their mechanics at this point. Only way to really get better at that point is better understanding of maps, situations, and strategy. In ZvZ is largely raw mechanics. You can see it in SKs play in tvz and pvz where he seems to avoid reallly intense and precise micro situations. This argument again. Or did you mean to say "not mechanically"? Because mechanically basically everyone is worse than during Kespa. Knowledge and strategy has evolved a lot though but if you put a Flash or Jaedong from their Kespa peaks into the current era with the knowledge from the current era, they would likely have a win rate of >90 % vs everyone today. | ||
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TMNT
2559 Posts
Kespa Effort had 67% vP and 57% vT, so even more lopsided than Bisu and JD. Online modern Effort is the same, 64.5 % vP and 54% vT. ASL+KSL Effort is just weird, 55.5% vP and 70% vT. I assume this is due to low sample size + variations in opponents. To summary, Effort still falls to typical Zerg category: strong ZvP and weaker ZvT. | ||
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TMNT
2559 Posts
On April 19 2024 19:30 Miragee wrote: This argument again. Or did you mean to say "not mechanically"? Because mechanically basically everyone is worse than during Kespa. Knowledge and strategy has evolved a lot though but if you put a Flash or Jaedong from their Kespa peaks into the current era with the knowledge from the current era, they would likely have a win rate of >90 % vs everyone today. I think what he meant, and also what I think, is: (1) present mechanics <<< past mechanics (obviously, they were younger back then) (2) however, present mechanics + present knowledge > past mechanics + past knowledge (3) but of course, present mechanics + present knowledge <<< past mechanics + present knowledge (the benefit of time travelling) As (3) doesn't exist, hence (2) means players now are better than Kespa players. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4168 Posts
it sucks ass and is lame as fuck that they got rid of the 3rd place match a couple of seasons ago, because more often than not it was actually much better and more exciting than the grand final bummer | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4168 Posts
On April 19 2024 19:46 TMNT wrote: I think what he meant, and also what I think, is: (1) present mechanics <<< past mechanics (obviously, they were younger back then) (2) however, present mechanics + present knowledge > past mechanics + past knowledge (3) but of course, present mechanics + present knowledge <<< past mechanics + present knowledge (the benefit of time travelling) As (3) doesn't exist, hence (2) means players now are better than Kespa players. Truth. | ||
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sas.Sziky
Hungary275 Posts
about mechanics just look Zero who has become the beast after military as mechanic king then i dont think so past>currently this is just depends to many things again.... | ||
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sas.Sziky
Hungary275 Posts
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Miragee
8478 Posts
On April 19 2024 19:46 TMNT wrote: I think what he meant, and also what I think, is: (1) present mechanics <<< past mechanics (obviously, they were younger back then) (2) however, present mechanics + present knowledge > past mechanics + past knowledge (3) but of course, present mechanics + present knowledge <<< past mechanics + present knowledge (the benefit of time travelling) As (3) doesn't exist, hence (2) means players now are better than Kespa players. Yes, this makes sense to me and I fully agree with you. The post I quoted kind of reads like they also think present mechanics > past mechanics because of wordings such as "because everyone has capped mechanics at this point". That's why I responded the way I did. | ||
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Malongo
Chile3472 Posts
On April 19 2024 19:46 TMNT wrote: I think what he meant, and also what I think, is: (1) present mechanics <<< past mechanics (obviously, they were younger back then) (2) however, present mechanics + present knowledge > past mechanics + past knowledge (3) but of course, present mechanics + present knowledge <<< past mechanics + present knowledge (the benefit of time travelling) As (3) doesn't exist, hence (2) means players now are better than Kespa players. Are you really sure about this one? (1) present mechanics <<< past mechanics (obviously, they were younger back then) I understand the age argument and I agree it is noticeable for some players, but at the same time others like Snow, Hero, Queen, Royal and even Mini have at least similar mechanics. I also understand the argument of having people 100% dedicated to broodwar in a team house but back then there were also a lot more people and not everyone had perfect play anyways, lots of guys were clearly worse mechanically than pro streamers today. From what I can recall and get from late Kespa era I would say present mechanics are only slightly worse overall than present mechanics. | ||
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Comedy
455 Posts
There are more factors at play than just 'age.' There is also overall experience/time with the game and units which massively improved, so while an 18 year old may have faster absolute reaction time, a 30 year old may have a deeper understanding of how a unit works and is thus able to use it better, because he spend more time with the unit. Same can be said for macro mechanics, most players before the Taek Bang LeeSsang era, learned how to play the game in a way that wasn't optimized. It's only the very last generation that learned from coaches, and built on 10 years of experience that learned the most efficient way to macro, base layout, proper F keys useage, etc. People also tend to forget you can change hotkeys now, which while it may be a small thing, that should lead to be better mechanics. Mice and keyboards have also improved substantially compared to 2008. So if you compare that generation (which is still on top), to any play around 2007 or earlier, they have far superior mechanics now than top players did in 2007 (Iris, ggplay etc.). The RTS genre as a whole and how good people are at playing games also evolves as a whole, a random foreigner now has a way deeper understanding of the game than any random foreigner pre-sc2, this is just because the overall knowledge pool, understanding, has increased massively, and not only because of translated guides, but also because people playing sc2 to a high level, time spent with the game being higher, etc. This is true for every layer of players all the way up to the top level. So yeah, reaction-time peaked probably around when these gamers were 18-20 years old, but I don't think you can say that mechanics were necessarily superior. Someone like Jaedong was obviously faster pre sc2, but smart players like soma or soulkey I would say have better mechanics now, just because of the way they go about playing the game. | ||
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TMNT
2559 Posts
On April 19 2024 20:03 sas.Sziky wrote: Although I have no intention of teasing you, you are the king of statistics but what i found Effort overall statistic: 63,7 vsP 61,5 vsT 58.1 vsZ. it's hard to tell if you're trolling or deliberately trying to twist things. I was surprised to read your argument about zerg allin things, either you don't understand this game or me. about mechanics just look Zero who has become the beast after military as mechanic king then i dont think so past>currently this is just depends to many things again.... The stats are from tlpd. It's all there for anyone to see and verify. The stats you pulled are from liquipedia which I'm not sure is a mix of both Kespa and modern days or not. But tlpd stats for sure are only from Kespa. But yeah, instead of finding it out yourself, or having the courtesy to ask why your numbers are different than me, let's just imply that the other is trolling or twisting the truth. I call that ignorance. | ||
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Nirli
Bulgaria361 Posts
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Postaljester_
27 Posts
There will never be a consensus but I am interested in what others think the brood war unit tier lists would look like. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6511 Posts
Makes me wonder if Snow playstyle doesnt really matter for maps advantages. I remember he loss to Flash on Transistor. Super broken map for pvt aswell. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6511 Posts
On April 20 2024 00:37 Postaljester_ wrote: The reason Protoss is the worst faction is also the reason they are the most fun to play and watch. Their units suck and are overpriced causing them to rely on specialists units. The specialists: reaver, Templar, arbiter cannot be massed and require each one to be individually controlled. There will never be a consensus but I am interested in what others think the brood war unit tier lists would look like. Is funny to call this protoss unit suck when some of them are capable of killing 45 units from zerg. Nah for real comedy. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4168 Posts
On April 20 2024 00:37 Postaljester_ wrote: The reason Protoss is the worst faction is also the reason they are the most fun to play and watch. Their units suck and are overpriced causing them to rely on specialists units. The specialists: reaver, Templar, arbiter cannot be massed and require each one to be individually controlled. There will never be a consensus but I am interested in what others think the brood war unit tier lists would look like. Indeed. The protoss wins almost always feel the most exhilarating. Like watching a tight rope performer walk unasisted from one 50-story building to another. Gotta be perfect or you lose. You have summarised my thoughts on this topic very well.  | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4168 Posts
On April 20 2024 00:40 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Is funny to call this protoss unit suck when some of them are capable of killing 45 units from zerg. Nah for real comedy. lmao zerg literally has by far the best spellcaster in the game (defiler) and on top of that two of the best and most versatile units in the game (zergling and hydralisk). Not even mentioning mutalisk, which can end the game on a whim if controlled correctly. If you can't manage to win vs protoss as zerg, it's a skill issue. Nothing more. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4168 Posts
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Nirli
Bulgaria361 Posts
On April 20 2024 00:40 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Is funny to call this protoss unit suck when some of them are capable of killing 45 units from zerg. Nah for real comedy. He did mention the reaver as a specialist unit though. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6511 Posts
On April 20 2024 01:02 Nirli wrote: He did mention the reaver as a specialist unit though. Yeah but apart from Dragoon mobility. ( in some maps btw ) i cant really think of any unit that suck. Holyshit even the Scout is amazing if you upgrade that thing to the maximum. The air power of that thing is actually insane. ( thx god is expensive ) Let that sink plague does nothing vs archons. Like i legit understand terran pain sometimes with plague. But toss complaining about plague is comedy too. Im not going to be arguing balanced here. In my book the game is balanced. But this season maps are terrible to play in. We will see what happen next season since there is going to be a zerg vs zerg final.. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6511 Posts
On April 19 2024 20:10 Malongo wrote: Are you really sure about this one? (1) present mechanics <<< past mechanics (obviously, they were younger back then) I understand the age argument and I agree it is noticeable for some players, but at the same time others like Snow, Hero, Queen, Royal and even Mini have at least similar mechanics. I also understand the argument of having people 100% dedicated to broodwar in a team house but back then there were also a lot more people and not everyone had perfect play anyways, lots of guys were clearly worse mechanically than pro streamers today. From what I can recall and get from late Kespa era I would say present mechanics are only slightly worse overall than present mechanics. I honestly think one of the reasons progamers are doing well mechanic side post kespa era is the introduction of in game timer. That just help so much to keep up timing wise with everything. Even drops etc. So even if your reflexes are getting worse or reaction time. Timer still help a ton to keep up in that aspect. Another reason is the custom hotkeys introduced in remastered. Im pretty sure the game these days is more easy than before when it comes to click your buttons. You can make your life easier in so many aspects. Micro Macro got easier for sure. But yeah Kespa era was the prime of mechanics for those guys. Their mind was also 100% put into starcraft. not distractions. The new era of SC is way more chill. I dont even know if their hands can keep up these days with 40 games x day like in the past. I know Effort actually quit ASL and competing for that reason. And he now plays in Proleagues with B tier players Like mong leta sinz YSC ggaemo etc. Btw jinjin translated a video between Flash and Nada talking about mechanics. | ||
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Smorrie
Netherlands2922 Posts
On April 19 2024 19:47 M3t4PhYzX wrote: as for the other thing, btw it sucks ass and is lame as fuck that they got rid of the 3rd place match a couple of seasons ago, because more often than not it was actually much better and more exciting than the grand final bummer I think the appeal 3rd place matches is very dependent on who's playing and the significance of the stakes (which in this case is definitely not high, even if there was a difference in the prize money). Personally, I'd rather watch the ZvZ final then a 3rd place match. I would be more interested in some sort of out of season material to maintain at least some sort of ASL brand momentum. Even if it's lower profile, the lengthy breaks between each season are so abrupt; going from 2 months of high activity to 0. | ||
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Smorrie
Netherlands2922 Posts
On April 20 2024 01:32 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: I honestly think one of the reasons progamers are doing well mechanic side post kespa era is the introduction of in game timer. That just help so much to keep up timing wise with everything. Even drops etc. So even if your reflexes are getting worse or reaction time. Timer still help a ton to keep up in that aspect. Another reason is the custom hotkeys introduced in remastered. Im pretty sure the game these days is more easy than before when it comes to click your buttons. You can make your life easier in so many aspects. Micro Macro got easier for sure. But yeah Kespa era was the prime of mechanics for those guys. Their mind was also 100% put into starcraft. not distractions. The new era of SC is way more chill. I dont even know if their hands can keep up these days with 40 games x day like in the past. I know Effort actually quit ASL and competing for that reason. And he now plays in Proleagues with B tier players Like mong leta sinz YSC ggaemo etc. Btw jinjin translated a video between Flash and Nada talking about mechanics. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CWEYKFG7Y8 100% this. I think more so the introduction of the timer, but definitely custom hotkeys as well. This never(?) gets highlighted but has had such a big impact on the game. | ||
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RJBTV
194 Posts
Age specifically below 40 has much much less of an impact on mechanical skill and ability. Players keep developing better techniques, better finger placements, become much more accustomed as mechanical practice compounds over the years and keep brainstorming ways to improve mechanics. Research has also shown that reaction time does not get that much worse. Another few examples are gun/shooting masters of old age still being considered fastest and most accurate marksmen in the world. I simply do not buy the argument players are mechanically worse because they are either in their late 20s or 30s because we have so many examples from other fields that show otherwise. The one thing that does make players worse is the lack of proper wrist and finger care to prevent conditions such as carpal tunnel. If affected players had always taken proper care of that they would still be capable of putting up the same if not better mechanics. Not all players however have developed carpal tunnel or similar conditions. Note: there are some players with worsw mechanics because they did not play enough to keep them up. think of Sea, Guemchi, Terror, Iris, Pusan, Therock etc. | ||
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Nirli
Bulgaria361 Posts
On April 20 2024 01:15 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Yeah but apart from Dragoon mobility. ( in some maps btw ) i cant really think of any unit that suck. Holyshit even the Scout is amazing if you upgrade that thing to the maximum. The air power of that thing is actually insane. ( thx god is expensive ) Let that sink plague does nothing vs archons. Like i legit understand terran pain sometimes with plague. But toss complaining about plague is comedy too. Im not going to be arguing balanced here. In my book the game is balanced. But this season maps are terrible to play in. We will see what happen next season since there is going to be a zerg vs zerg final.. Plague does so much more though. Demolishes buildings, invalidates high HP units, even reveals cloaked units. All of this is really good against P. You know that man, you don't need my F rank to spread wisdom on the topic. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6511 Posts
On April 20 2024 02:36 Nirli wrote: Plague does so much more though. Demolishes buildings, invalidates high HP units, even reveals cloaked units. All of this is really good against P. You know that man, you don't need my F rank to spread wisdom on the topic. I have a hard time believing do you even play zerg. Defiler is a tier 3 unit. Just the struggle to get to that point in a good position is a real hustle. Lets say you got there. Each time u will try to use that defiler it will almost never have energy cuz u are so busy keeping up with production and defending or attacking that u dont even have time to consume. Lets say do you consume finally. U will make an attack but do you need to keep up with production defending etc. that when u look back to your army the defiler is gone by 1 storm. Or it got intercepted mid way by random toss units. But ok lets play the game defiler is outside the toss defensive position. U finally plagued the canons the zealots. the dream right ? u send all your army and all of sudden there is 4 reavers and 4 hightemplars defending. and u just loss all your army. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/00j3s91.png) yeah defiler is good. But is not the sacred grail that people make it seems to be. | ||
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Malongo
Chile3472 Posts
On April 20 2024 03:07 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: I have a hard time believing do you even play zerg. Defiler is a tier 3 unit. Just the struggle to get to that point in a good position is a real hustle. Lets say you got there. Each time u will try to use that defiler it will almost never have energy cuz u are so busy keeping up with production and defending or attacking that u dont even have time to consume. Lets say do you consume finally. U will make an attack but do you need to keep up with production defending etc. that when u look back to your army the defiler is gone by 1 storm. Or it got intercepted mid way by random toss units. But ok lets play the game defiler is outside the toss defensive position. U finally plagued the canons the zealots. the dream right ? u send all your army and all of sudden there is 4 reavers and 4 hightemplars defending. and u just loss all your army. yeah defiler is good. But is not the sacred grail that people make it seems to be. Come on, we all know by far the least balanced ability in the game is Consume. Cloud and Plague are good on their own but with Consume you basically get infinity spells on demand. Imagine P Templars or T Vessels with Consume. Protoss would literally be paying 100 minerals for 50 mana everyday of the week. | ||
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protossftw
3 Posts
On April 20 2024 05:02 Malongo wrote: Come on, we all know by far the least balanced ability in the game is Consume. Cloud and Plague are good on their own but with Consume you basically get infinity spells on demand. Imagine P Templars or T Vessels with Consume. Protoss would literally be paying 100 minerals for 50 mana everyday of the week. Honestly, the reason why protoss is OP is that psi storm costs only 75 energy. That's f.cking crazy. A single full-energy HT can easily kill 20+ hydras. 4 HT, 4 reavers and a few zealots and dragoons can hold against anything zerg throws at them. And not only that, your HT ran out of energy? Fuse them into an OP archon that is immune to plague and can deal damage under dark swarm. Your HT are getting sniped by a swarm of mutalisks? Don't worry, just use a maelstrom and a storm and those pesky mutalisks are gone. User was banned for this post. | ||
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bochs
United States97 Posts
On April 20 2024 03:07 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: I have a hard time believing do you even play zerg. Defiler is a tier 3 unit. Just the struggle to get to that point in a good position is a real hustle. Lets say you got there. Each time u will try to use that defiler it will almost never have energy cuz u are so busy keeping up with production and defending or attacking that u dont even have time to consume. Lets say do you consume finally. U will make an attack but do you need to keep up with production defending etc. that when u look back to your army the defiler is gone by 1 storm. Or it got intercepted mid way by random toss units. But ok lets play the game defiler is outside the toss defensive position. U finally plagued the canons the zealots. the dream right ? u send all your army and all of sudden there is 4 reavers and 4 hightemplars defending. and u just loss all your army. yeah defiler is good. But is not the sacred grail that people make it seems to be. That's a skill issue, not a balance issue. Don't plug yourself in when the discussion here is clearly about the highest level of play. | ||
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bITt.mAN
Switzerland3693 Posts
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TMNT
2559 Posts
If it was someone like me or another nobody who said these things, ppl in this thread would be laughing at us and calling noobs. | ||
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
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G5
United States2893 Posts
On April 20 2024 03:07 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: I have a hard time believing do you even play zerg. Defiler is a tier 3 unit. Just the struggle to get to that point in a good position is a real hustle. Lets say you got there. Each time u will try to use that defiler it will almost never have energy cuz u are so busy keeping up with production and defending or attacking that u dont even have time to consume. Lets say do you consume finally. U will make an attack but do you need to keep up with production defending etc. that when u look back to your army the defiler is gone by 1 storm. Or it got intercepted mid way by random toss units. But ok lets play the game defiler is outside the toss defensive position. U finally plagued the canons the zealots. the dream right ? u send all your army and all of sudden there is 4 reavers and 4 hightemplars defending. and u just loss all your army. yeah defiler is good. But is not the sacred grail that people make it seems to be. Bro. First off, Defilers are great. I don't think they're op. I just think they're an absolutely a fantastic unit. But making complaints about losing a defiler because you look away to macro? That's just a weird thing to complain about imo. Protoss loses HTs like this all of the time to hydras, mutas, lings, etc. and this is a threat literally all game. You only have to worry about babysitting defilers in the late game when you actually have them. The amount of babysitting spell-casters or high-value units in ZvP is undebatable. It's way more taxing on Protoss. You have one real spell caster that is used and you don't even have to worry about using it in most of your ZvPs because it only appears in late game. Come on now. | ||
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TMNT
2559 Posts
On April 20 2024 08:47 Shinokuki wrote: All i know is that TMNT is a fraud man. He gotta reveal his MMR. If his MMR is 2k+ i will bow down to him for his superior statistics. Until then, zvp is balanced and zergs hate to go standard nowadays. They would rather die than go defilers. Lol come on what did I say to offend you? What's my argument that you disagree and what's your counter argument? If we're to go the mmr route then you should ask Stork his, then bow down to his opinion "ZvP is 60/40 Zerg on normal map and when it's 973 it's 70/30". | ||
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bochs
United States97 Posts
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Jealous
10108 Posts
On April 20 2024 09:06 TMNT wrote: Lol come on what did I say to offend you? What's my argument that you disagree and what's your counter argument? If we're to go the mmr route then you should ask Stork his, then bow down to his opinion "ZvP is 60/40 Zerg on normal map and when it's 973 it's 70/30". No offense meant, as I generally think you've made sensible posts and points (even if I don't agree with all of them), but I can't help but notice that you didn't post your MMR. To be fair that should apply to Shinokuki - the evergreen shitposter who apparently has his finger on the pulse of the Korean proscene - as well. This spat has gone on long enough where you both should just post your MMRs and then decide whether you want to have a grudgematch or not. | ||
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Jealous
10108 Posts
On April 20 2024 00:59 M3t4PhYzX wrote: lmao zerg literally has by far the best spellcaster in the game (defiler) and on top of that two of the best and most versatile units in the game (zergling and hydralisk). Not even mentioning mutalisk, which can end the game on a whim if controlled correctly. If you can't manage to win vs protoss as zerg, it's a skill issue. Nothing more. Rounding out the usual suspects, we have M3t4PhYzX telling one of the best foreign Zergs of all time who is high enough in ladder to match up on ladder with Snow, the semi-finalist featured in this very thread, that he has a "skill issue." Lmfao. Pure clown, never change 🤡 | ||
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RJBTV
194 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6511 Posts
On April 20 2024 09:48 Jealous wrote: No offense meant, as I generally think you've made sensible posts and points (even if I don't agree with all of them), but I can't help but notice that you didn't post your MMR. To be fair that should apply to Shinokuki - the evergreen shitposter who apparently has his finger on the pulse of the Korean proscene - as well. This spat has gone on long enough where you both should just post your MMRs and then decide whether you want to have a grudgematch or not. Just by the way Shinokuki speaks i can grant he is 2300 mmr. Btw TNT im not mocking snow. The f*ck ? the guy is the best player in the world right now based in his proleague results and online results tournaments. Everyone knows (i assume ) ASL is not the one to decide who is the best these days. It was just a back to the past gem i found cuz im fan of the game and i watch countless starcraft for more than 16 years lol. G5 i respect you bro. Protoss old school legend that beat Boxer. Even if you do sometimes weird shit like calling people hackers lol. I can tell you dont even know defiler HP. But you a legend bro. much love | ||
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Miragee
8478 Posts
On April 20 2024 08:59 G5 wrote: Bro. First off, Defilers are great. I don't think they're op. I just think they're an absolutely a fantastic unit. But making complaints about losing a defiler because you look away to macro? That's just a weird thing to complain about imo. Protoss loses HTs like this all of the time to hydras, mutas, lings, etc. and this is a threat literally all game. You only have to worry about babysitting defilers in the late game when you actually have them. The amount of babysitting spell-casters or high-value units in ZvP is undebatable. It's way more taxing on Protoss. You have one real spell caster that is used and you don't even have to worry about using it in most of your ZvPs because it only appears in late game. Come on now. To be fair, I think he was talking about moving his army. Moving a zerg army takes significantly more clicks (in effective APM) than protoss because they have more units in raw numbers. This is why you mostly see small skirmishes with defilers on the offensive side and not zerg moving their whole army including defilers around the map all the time until they find an opening. That being said, I do think defilers are one of the strongest units in the game for sure. I also think that protoss has to do a lot more baby-sitting for specific units, not only spell casters but also obs and reaver/shuttle. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6511 Posts
On April 20 2024 10:34 RJBTV wrote: Dont forget reavers need scarabs. carriers need interceptors. etc. The reaver is extremely strong in somewhat fortified positions I agree. Specifically when games go very long reavers become stupidly efficient and effective, capable of killing five times what it(and its scarabs ) cost. But they dont just get 45 kills. That is super rare. Nah they do trust. Lets not act now like reavers are only good in Snow hands. When do you upgrade the damage thing on the reaver. That thing smokes in late game LOL . But im not claiming defiler isnt good. Where i said that ? Defiler is great like g5 said. Specially vs terran. Dont you find strange that every zerg always try to finish the game fast as possible.( sometimes risking a sure loss ) instead of playing for the ultimate unit the defiler ? Like for real. Look at my boe Action vs Best in past ASLs. or Action vs Snow recently. That guy has one of the best defiler controls in starcraft. Yet each time he play a protoss he is desperate to finish the game instead of using his most lethal streng in zerg vs terran. Very curious hmm. | ||
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On April 20 2024 09:48 Jealous wrote: No offense meant, as I generally think you've made sensible posts and points (even if I don't agree with all of them), but I can't help but notice that you didn't post your MMR. To be fair that should apply to Shinokuki - the evergreen shitposter who apparently has his finger on the pulse of the Korean proscene - as well. This spat has gone on long enough where you both should just post your MMRs and then decide whether you want to have a grudgematch or not. Damn jealous the KING has shown up | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4168 Posts
On April 20 2024 09:51 Jealous wrote: Rounding out the usual suspects, we have M3t4PhYzX telling one of the best foreign Zergs of all time who is high enough in ladder to match up on ladder with Snow, the semi-finalist featured in this very thread, that he has a "skill issue." Lmfao. Pure clown, never change 🤡 I never said he isn't a skilled BW player, btw. Just that not winning ZvP is a skill issue (more than maps) due to matchup being skewed towards Z pretty heavily. Yet you attacked me without hesitation over nothing. You are not well in the head. There are layers to this but I wouldn't think a mouth drooler like you would ever get any of it anyway.  | ||
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Comedy
455 Posts
On April 20 2024 17:41 M3t4PhYzX wrote: I never said he isn't a skilled BW player, btw. Just that not winning ZvP is a skill issue (more than maps) due to matchup being skewed towards Z pretty heavily. Yet you attacked me without hesitation over nothing. You are not well in the head. There are layers to this but I wouldn't think a mouth drooler like you would ever get any of it anyway. i think the point is you just don't know what you're talking about. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4168 Posts
On April 20 2024 17:58 Comedy wrote: i think the point is you just don't know what you're talking about. yeah sure. okay then whatever | ||
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Smorrie
Netherlands2922 Posts
At least we have a proper ZvZ final so we can put this to rest. Instead we can focus on the insane skill needed for proper muta control and see how easy Protoss has it | ||
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Barneyk
Sweden305 Posts
Some great games but I am sad that we don't get to see Snow take home a tournament yet again. So consistently great yet never great enough... Great play by Soulkey though, really exploiting the lack of information and did some great stuff and just played great. But I felt like Snow did bring more... | ||
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Miragee
8478 Posts
On April 21 2024 00:17 Smorrie wrote: Appears we need some new forum upgrades. Account verification through Blizzard's API to match MMR to unlock posting access to balance whine threads lol Won't work. People will start boosting accounts for money, lol. | ||
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
anyway why are people still so obsessed with the kespa era? the bulk of my pro bw knowledge is from the ASL era, but did any kespa era protoss pro ever show even a fraction of the brilliance snow displayed in g3 with his reaver and shuttle control? seems like we're all just old farts, waxing nostalgic about the glory days because our glory days are behind us too. in any case, that was a pretty disgusting end to an otherwise occasionally thrilling series. zerg showed us it doesn't need 9-7-3 or whatever to break the mu. massing lings is enough now. | ||
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Comedy
455 Posts
On April 21 2024 02:58 whylessness wrote: zerg showed us it doesn't need 9-7-3 or whatever to break the mu. massing lings is enough now. try it on the ladder, it doesn't work. snow was just super greedy in last game. very lackluster. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands757 Posts
On April 21 2024 02:58 whylessness wrote: why are people still so obsessed with the kespa era? the bulk of my pro bw knowledge is from the ASL era, but did any kespa era protoss pro ever show even a fraction of the brilliance snow displayed in g3 with his reaver and shuttle control? seems like we're all just old farts, waxing nostalgic about the glory days because our glory days are behind us too. Nostalgia and because that was the golden era in terms of popularity and viewership and money involved. Players were not better then than they are now. Present > past. | ||
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G5
United States2893 Posts
On April 21 2024 03:23 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: Nostalgia and because that was the golden era in terms of popularity and viewership and money involved. Players were not better then than they are now. Present > past. I actually disagree. I think the meta is vaaaasty different but I think players were better in 2009 - 2010. FlaSh actually said that if he played himself from that era, the current FlaSh would beat his former self for about 2 weeks straight then never win again. I agree with that. Obviously he wouldn't "never win again" but I agree with the sentiment. P.S. With that said, no one has ever been better with Reavers than snOw is now though. As an old fart whom has watched every OSL, MSL, ASL, and everything in between, I can confidently say that. | ||
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Barneyk
Sweden305 Posts
On April 21 2024 02:58 whylessness wrote: why are people still so obsessed with the kespa era? When was the last time you experienced something like this? Just look at that crowd... | ||
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felleN
Australia56 Posts
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
On April 16 2024 22:08 kodecopas wrote: no Last no Flash no Fantasy = Zerg dominance I always said be careful what you wish for; that when Flash leaves, enjoy ur ZvZ finals. Only just started watching ASL again; and when I looked up past results, I was very surprised we got three Terran champs after Flash left. And two of them were TvT finals no less. I couldn’t believe it. And it seems like I’m not the only one. Tastosis mentioned that we’re now “back to a normal state” where “the players expected to win are winning”; and iirc they specifically mentioned the JyJ and Royal championships. No offense to JyJ, but can someone explain what the heck happened? | ||
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G5
United States2893 Posts
On April 21 2024 22:57 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: I always said be careful what you wish for; that when Flash leaves, enjoy ur ZvZ finals. Only just started watching ASL again; and when I looked up past results, I was very surprised we got three Terran champs after Flash left. And two of them were TvT finals no less. I couldn’t believe it. And it seems like I’m not the only one. Tastosis mentioned that we’re now “back to a normal state” where “the players expected to win are winning”; and iirc they specifically mentioned the JyJ and Royal championships. No offense to JyJ, but can someone explain what the heck happened? Yeah, I was surprised as well that 3 Terrans won post FlaSh. Terrans used to say their race isn't good, just FlaSh is good. Then other Terrans won a bunch of ASLs and you don't hear that argument so much anymore. | ||
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TMNT
2559 Posts
On April 21 2024 22:57 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: I always said be careful what you wish for; that when Flash leaves, enjoy ur ZvZ finals. Only just started watching ASL again; and when I looked up past results, I was very surprised we got three Terran champs after Flash left. And two of them were TvT finals no less. I couldn’t believe it. And it seems like I’m not the only one. Tastosis mentioned that we’re now “back to a normal state” where “the players expected to win are winning”; and iirc they specifically mentioned the JyJ and Royal championships. No offense to JyJ, but can someone explain what the heck happened? JYJ and Royal both had their fair share of luck by playing only (mostly?) TvZ until the finals. To be fair they did play very well in those seasons but since then they haven't been able to retain the form. | ||
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Barneyk
Sweden305 Posts
On April 22 2024 03:52 TMNT wrote: JYJ and Royal both had their fair share of luck by playing only (mostly?) TvZ until the finals. To be fair they did play very well in those seasons but since then they haven't been able to retain the form. Yeah, neither of their tournament wins felt "deserved" the way Soulkeys did last season or mini, Larva, Light or Queens victories prior. They are great players and had a great tournament, but felt a little bit "lucky" in a lot of ways. | ||
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goody153
44071 Posts
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TMNT
2559 Posts
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Simplistik
1984 Posts
On April 22 2024 03:52 TMNT wrote: JYJ and Royal both had their fair share of luck by playing only (mostly?) TvZ until the finals. To be fair they did play very well in those seasons but since then they haven't been able to retain the form. JyJ was a bit fortunate I think, but both players still had pretty hard knock-out routes. RoyaL was probably just the best player at that time. He even carried on dominating for a bit afterwards, in KCM etc. For about three months he looked almost unplayble. Since then he's been good, but a little of the magic seems to have vanished. JyJ never made it to that level I think. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands757 Posts
On April 24 2024 01:19 Simplistik wrote: JyJ was a bit fortunate I think, but both players still had pretty hard knock-out routes. RoyaL was probably just the best player at that time. He even carried on dominating for a bit afterwards, in KCM etc. For about three months he looked almost unplayble. Since then he's been good, but a little of the magic seems to have vanished. JyJ never made it to that level I think. JyJ lost the fire. He's been less active and plays much less since his win. Before and leading up to his win he was grinding. Royal very much was the best Terran for a short bit. He was innovating, his mechanics were crazy, his playstyle was high risk high reward. I think Royal's style has been figured out and the maps just aren't his vibe. Next Map pool might very much be nice for him. | ||
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Elroi
Sweden5588 Posts
On April 21 2024 17:48 Barneyk wrote: When was the last time you experienced something like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBuhwWV2-kM Just look at that crowd... Yeah, I used to show that video to people to explain how big this obscure game I was watching all the time was in Korea. | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4110 Posts
On April 22 2024 01:14 G5 wrote: Yeah, I was surprised as well that 3 Terrans won post FlaSh. Terrans used to say their race isn't good, just FlaSh is good. Then other Terrans won a bunch of ASLs and you don't hear that argument so much anymore. Terran is the best race when there is a lot of time to prepare for specific maps and opponents in my opinion and this is where the BW arguable imbalances come from. I believe that we would've had completely different results if the tournaments were fast paced with several series per day with unknown opponents. It doesnt mean it would have been better or more balanced, but it would have been very different However, since the game is pretty balance even like this, I would assume that we would have more even titles distribution between the races if we had "fast" tournaments | ||
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G5
United States2893 Posts
On April 24 2024 00:05 TMNT wrote: By the way Troy has now been removed from the map pool of Proleague. I guess Shinokuki can be less concerned about Zerg players wellfare now. Thank god. Troy is a garbage map lol. | ||
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