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ToT)MidiaN(
England2183 Posts
Amazed to see how many of you believe that's he's telling the truth. After getting caught it's natural that people protest their innocence, many many people do it after being caught hacking too. Something along the lines of "there's no evidence i don't hack" then eventually it gets out that they did hack. This is the exact same thing, I'm sorry but there's simply no way it was Kosiro in game 3. Let's look at a few pieces of evidence:
1) After game 1 Kosiro goes away for 20 minutes (Ok he explained this and he ends up at Pantech HQ - this is actually where Sea.FireFist would've been anyway since he's a Pantech member, so maybe he's telling the truth about going there but it wasn't Kosiro who played in game3.)
2) Draco said himself that the skill of the zerg in games 2 and 3 were much better than that of the zerg in game 1.
3) Hotkeys. Kosiro assigns his first hatchery to 3 and 0 and his overlord to 1 and proceeds to spam the living shit out of his 1 and 3 keys. In game 1 this was also the case, but in game 3 it unfortunately wasn't. In game 3 he assigns his first hatchery only to 3 and overlord to 2 and spams the shit out of 2 and 3. If you think about it, people simply don't change things like this from one game to the other. For years I've been assigning my hatchery to 4 and 0 and my overlord to 1 3 and spamming 141414 and the odd use of 3 also. It's not something people change.
4) The account name. In game 1 the ID he used was "Kosiro" in game 3 it was "kosiro[shield]", kinda strange that he would change that from one game to another? Also the capitalisations are different which is also weird. I think this is a tiny detail but Sea.FireFist often (not always) writes his ID names as all lowercase.
It was played at pantech HQ, the hotkeys match those of Sea.FireFist, his skill level was different and he used a different ID name. To me that's 100% proof that it wasn't Kosiro playing.
In many many Who is Who PGTour threads myself, roMAD and starofNC busted a lot of good player's smurfs simply by analysis like this, and everytime we were right. This is not an exception, this was Sea.FireFist playing and not Kosiro[Shield].
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On September 24 2006 15:15 HungZerg wrote:
uh you're being just as quick to assume hes innocent as you say they were to claim hes guilty. this is a member of their own team mani exposed, i doubt they did it on little evidence.
I'm rather a too slow judge than a too fast, of course I was very excited of the news but still have cold head.
I'm just saying that by all repect for Romad, the procedure of idintifying players over replays might not be as certain as one thought before, due to the fact that progamers are trained into various styles and it was all-in strats both game(I haven't seen reps of course).
And there are some weak but still positive evidences.
1. The 20 mins could have been used for getting another player indeed, or for the headquarters as he said.
2. An eventual non-drunken sabotageur could actually think "Noob bash!" and go all-in and risk loosing foreign game, or he could go safe BO's where he would probably win.
3. Why would Kosiro claim innosence after getting kicked out, for the 1/8 chance of getting 1000$?
Papa Poirot says to use your grey cells 
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On September 24 2006 15:34 ToT)MidiaN( wrote:
Amazed to see how many of you believe that's he's telling the truth. After getting caught it's natural that people protest their innocence, many many people do it after being caught hacking too. Something along the lines of "there's no evidence i don't hack" then eventually it gets out that they did hack. This is the exact same thing, I'm sorry but there's simply no way it was Kosiro in game 3. Let's look at a few pieces of evidence:
1) After game 1 Kosiro goes away for 20 minutes (Ok he explained this and he ends up at Pantech HQ - this is actually where Sea.FireFist would've been anyway since he's a Pantech member, so maybe he's telling the truth about going there but it wasn't Kosiro who played in game3.)
2) Draco said himself that the skill of the zerg in games 2 and 3 were much better than that of the zerg in game 1.
3) Hotkeys. Kosiro assigns his first hatchery to 3 and 0 and his overlord to 1 and proceeds to spam the living shit out of his 1 and 3 keys. In game 1 this was also the case, but in game 3 it unfortunately wasn't. In game 3 he assigns his first hatchery only to 3 and overlord to 2 and spams the shit out of 2 and 3. If you think about it, people simply don't change things like this from one game to the other. For years I've been assigning my hatchery to 4 and 0 and my overlord to 1 3 and spamming 141414 and the odd use of 3 also. It's not something people change.
4) The account name. In game 1 the ID he used was "Kosiro" in game 3 it was "kosiro[shield]", kinda strange that he would change that from one game to another? Also the capitalisations are different which is also weird. I think this is a tiny detail but Sea.FireFist often (not always) writes his ID names as all lowercase.
It was played at pantech HQ, the hotkeys match those of Sea.FireFist, his skill level was different and he used a different ID name. To me that's 100% proof that it wasn't Kosiro playing.
In many many Who is Who PGTour threads myself, roMAD and starofNC busted a lot of good player's smurfs simply by analysis like this, and everytime we were right. This is not an exception, this was Sea.FireFist playing and not Kosiro[Shield].
If you don't believe this check every ygclan rep of these 2 players, it's always 0 3 1 for kosiro and 3 2 for Firefist, I just checked.
So he either decided to change his hotkeys for 1 game out of all the reps out there of him, or it wasn't him. Which is more likely?
It's pretty sad he would lie to us after fucking us over like this. He needs to just apologize and hope bliz will let him stay in cause if he wants to make it up to us I'm sure he's capable of tearing up 95% of the people in this tourney
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Would've been very handy if game 2 was actually saved 
Game 3 would be disallowed also because the map was RH3 again :X
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2) Draco said himself that the skill of the zerg in games 2 and 3 were much better than that of the zerg in game 1.
you should watch the games you know.
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ToT)MidiaN(
England2183 Posts
nice assumption, actually i did see them and yes they were both all in but the all in that kosiro did in game 1 was so unbelievably retarded that it's a fair statement to say that there was a skill difference between the play in games 1 and 3.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On September 24 2006 15:35 NeVeRDiEDrOnE wrote:
3. Why would Kosiro claim innosence after getting kicked out, for the 1/8 chance of getting 1000$?
I'm just guessing here, but maybe he will actually lose reputation in Korea if he's kicked/banned from the Sandlot for cheating? Or, maybe he actually wants to participate?
If he cheated, and would benefit at all from being proven innocent, then he might as well give it a shot.
Personally, Midian's post (especially point #3 about the hotkey change) sounds pretty damning to me. Firefist playing for Kosiro sounds like the best explanation for those differences he highlighted.
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United States20664 Posts
On September 24 2006 15:34 ToT)MidiaN( wrote:
Amazed to see how many of you believe that's he's telling the truth. After getting caught it's natural that people protest their innocence, many many people do it after being caught hacking too. Something along the lines of "there's no evidence i don't hack" then eventually it gets out that they did hack. This is the exact same thing, I'm sorry but there's simply no way it was Kosiro in game 3. Let's look at a few pieces of evidence:
1) After game 1 Kosiro goes away for 20 minutes (Ok he explained this and he ends up at Pantech HQ - this is actually where Sea.FireFist would've been anyway since he's a Pantech member, so maybe he's telling the truth about going there but it wasn't Kosiro who played in game3.)
2) Draco said himself that the skill of the zerg in games 2 and 3 were much better than that of the zerg in game 1.
3) Hotkeys. Kosiro assigns his first hatchery to 3 and 0 and his overlord to 1 and proceeds to spam the living shit out of his 1 and 3 keys. In game 1 this was also the case, but in game 3 it unfortunately wasn't. In game 3 he assigns his first hatchery only to 3 and overlord to 2 and spams the shit out of 2 and 3. If you think about it, people simply don't change things like this from one game to the other. For years I've been assigning my hatchery to 4 and 0 and my overlord to 1 3 and spamming 141414 and the odd use of 3 also. It's not something people change.
4) The account name. In game 1 the ID he used was "Kosiro" in game 3 it was "kosiro[shield]", kinda strange that he would change that from one game to another? Also the capitalisations are different which is also weird. I think this is a tiny detail but Sea.FireFist often (not always) writes his ID names as all lowercase.
It was played at pantech HQ, the hotkeys match those of Sea.FireFist, his skill level was different and he used a different ID name. To me that's 100% proof that it wasn't Kosiro playing.
In many many Who is Who PGTour threads myself, roMAD and starofNC busted a lot of good player's smurfs simply by analysis like this, and everytime we were right. This is not an exception, this was Sea.FireFist playing and not Kosiro[Shield].
I'll play a bit of devil's advocate here, though I agree the evidence against him is greater than that for him.
1) Well, they're both PanTech members, so it's not really convincing either way.
2) If the first game was at PCBang where he was unused to keyboard/mouse, there will be skill difference. Like SEn vs Idra, where SEn was at grandma's house. [SEn's grandma owns a PC bang! Must visit next time I go to Taiwan ^^]
3) Different computers, IDs different capitalizations and such.
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On September 24 2006 15:34 ToT)MidiaN( wrote:
Amazed to see how many of you believe that's he's telling the truth. After getting caught it's natural that people protest their innocence, many many people do it after being caught hacking too. Something along the lines of "there's no evidence i don't hack" then eventually it gets out that they did hack. This is the exact same thing, I'm sorry but there's simply no way it was Kosiro in game 3. Let's look at a few pieces of evidence:
1) After game 1 Kosiro goes away for 20 minutes (Ok he explained this and he ends up at Pantech HQ - this is actually where Sea.FireFist would've been anyway since he's a Pantech member, so maybe he's telling the truth about going there but it wasn't Kosiro who played in game3.)
2) Draco said himself that the skill of the zerg in games 2 and 3 were much better than that of the zerg in game 1.
3) Hotkeys. Kosiro assigns his first hatchery to 3 and 0 and his overlord to 1 and proceeds to spam the living shit out of his 1 and 3 keys. In game 1 this was also the case, but in game 3 it unfortunately wasn't. In game 3 he assigns his first hatchery only to 3 and overlord to 2 and spams the shit out of 2 and 3. If you think about it, people simply don't change things like this from one game to the other. For years I've been assigning my hatchery to 4 and 0 and my overlord to 1 3 and spamming 141414 and the odd use of 3 also. It's not something people change.
4) The account name. In game 1 the ID he used was "Kosiro" in game 3 it was "kosiro[shield]", kinda strange that he would change that from one game to another? Also the capitalisations are different which is also weird. I think this is a tiny detail but Sea.FireFist often (not always) writes his ID names as all lowercase.
It was played at pantech HQ, the hotkeys match those of Sea.FireFist, his skill level was different and he used a different ID name. To me that's 100% proof that it wasn't Kosiro playing.
In many many Who is Who PGTour threads myself, roMAD and starofNC busted a lot of good player's smurfs simply by analysis like this, and everytime we were right. This is not an exception, this was Sea.FireFist playing and not Kosiro[Shield].
I have respect for your and Romads analysis and objective intentions, but 1. is evidence in either direction, and for 2. Kosiro explains himself. Over 3. I can't judge obviously and 4. evidence is just as small as mine in my last post. You surely know about different Caps in different reps from the same gamer.
I'm not saying you're wrong, since I can't judge 3rd point. But there isn't such a thing like 100% in the world of suspicion.
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Take him back again ASAP!
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1st 2nd and 4th points can all be believably explained by unusual envinronment and drunkeness
but 3rd point looks like enough.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On September 24 2006 15:47 NeVeRDiEDrOnE wrote:
I'm not saying you're wrong, since I can't judge 3rd point. But there isn't such a thing like 100% in the world of suspicion.
What's the point of saying that? You imply that 100% is actually necessary in some way. But 100% is never necessary to convict anyone for any alleged bad behaviour. And it's not like Kosiro is your child or spouse.
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On September 24 2006 15:47 Bill307 wrote:
[removed quote within quote]
I'm just guessing here, but maybe he will actually lose reputation in Korea if he's kicked/banned from the Sandlot for cheating? Or, maybe he actually wants to participate?
If he cheated, and would benefit at all from being proven innocent, then he might as well give it a shot.
Personally, Midian's post sounds pretty damning to me. Firefist playing for Kosiro sounds like the best explanation for those differences he highlighted.
Until now, there was only this one post of me on PGR dealing this matter, and there were total of 10 replies on the thread. As I said, reaction was shocked but not huge.
And except of that there isn't single post about it. Not even on FiFo (Haven't checked 24/7 but I think they didn't even make a news of this tournament). My oponion is that reputation doesn't count. Think of that he had to ask his friend to post the reply, and I had to move it to here. And have you seen that many translations from Korean community posts before? The connection between both communities is ridiculously weak.
But I have to agree that Midian's post is also convincing. Not 100% but convincing.
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I would like a testimony from firefist, but I guess we will have to do with what we have.
Reconstructing the story:
1. Kosiro plays Draco as a zerg in a pc bang. The settings on the computer are unfavorable, and Kosiro decides to go all in, then leave the building to go to Pantech quarters to play the remaning 2 games.
2. 20 minutes later, the games resume, and Draco notices significant improvement in skill, however these claims cannot be backed, because there is no evidence in the form of a replay. Draco loses this match to someone called kosiro[shield].
3. The third game is played, kosiro[shield] uses different hotkeys, and wins with another all in.
Possible theories:
-Kosiro used firefist for game 3, and maybe game 2.
-Draco decided that there wouldn't be enough evidence to disprove his claims about Kosiro's cheating, and decided to blame him.
-Kosiro did not cheat, and Draco did not blame him falsely, implying that the game was messed up by computer hardware. Possible explanations may include a faulty keyboard with a screwed up "1" key.
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jtan.. think about it. Omg he explained himself? The evidence should be reconsidered and if there's little or no doubt the call that is done should stand
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the only evidence that seems damning to me is the hotkeys.... which is solid evidence nonetheless
also it would be really weak if he was trying to lie his way back into the sandlot tourney
i'm kindof undecided on this because I have no experience analyzing replay hotkey signatures
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On September 24 2006 15:55 Bill307 wrote:
[removed quote within quote]
What's the point of saying that? You imply that 100% is actually necessary in some way. But 100% is never necessary to convict anyone for any alleged bad behaviour. And it's not like Kosiro is your child or spouse.
You sound more like you just want to argue than to discuss, as you are attacking him and he is objectively trying to defend Kosiro.
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On September 24 2006 15:55 Bill307 wrote:
[removed quote within quote]
What's the point of saying that? You imply that 100% is actually necessary in some way. But 100% is never necessary to convict anyone for any alleged bad behaviour. And it's not like Kosiro is your child or spouse.
You are right. It's not necessary for convicting the crimes. I just wanted to remind that the methode might eventually not be perfect.
And please don't get me wrong. I don't play bw anymore since like 2 years. I don't know the newer progamers, I don't follow the majority of pro-games, I just go to PGR first to look if there are any recommended games instead. I actually saw the aka's Kosiro and Polaris the first time in this tournament. And I'm definitely no nationalist living 7 years in Austria now, since my 14th age.
I'm just discussing the issue for the issues matter. The only reason that I made arguments only for Kosiro is the fact that I was the newsbringer from PGR actually.
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i bet everyone in this thread would change their tune if it was a Korean analyzing the reps.
It's painfully obvious if you just look for yourselves
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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 24 2006 14:59 NonY wrote:
I hope it's true. I personally find the "bwchart fingerprint" idea to be bullshit. Hotkeys, APM and action percentages can vary greatly from game to game. Unfortunately, I've never seen any significant literature defending the practice of bwchart analysis and so there's nothing for me to argue against.
Well, trust me, it works really well.. You don't check hotkey percentages, you set the diagram to show hotkeys and you get a signature.
Anyway, I REALLY hope we made a mistake, he seemed nice in the channel (and even said something about being 'condition zero' because of the team dinner) so yeah, I hope he's telling the truth.
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EPT
