And today, Polaris[ArnC] from team PGR, who is a friend of Kosiro, saw the post and replied:
"Hello, I'm Polaris I want to talk about the Kosiro issue a little bit.
After I saw the TLvsFIFO result post, I rushed to him asap to ask, and show him the news, since I know him personally. As I was assuming, he didn't know about it at all and was completely suprised by it. And he asked me to post the real circumstances for him here:
Kosiro said that he was actually preparing for the Sandlot match.
On that day he was in a very bad shape because of the aforementioned Pentech meeting after PL, but he didn't dare to fail the tournament so he went to a nearest internet cafe in the middle of the meeting for the games. But the settings in that place was really horrible, so after game 1 he decided to move to Pentech headquarters.
So he played then HIMSELF game 2 and 3 there, and he went all-in strategies in both games because of his low shape. And won both.
To the suspicion that the replay analysers claimed firefist to have played instead, he replied that he unquestionably played the game himself, and replay shall be analysed as much as needed.
He did his usual in that game, so everything shall be the same and he's innocent.When the final result of replay analysis says forfeit, he will accept it to get kicked out of the tournament.
I(Polaris) have personally varying APM's between 270 and 450 depending on my shape. APM shouldn't be the mesure since progamers have varying APM's too quite often.
We both feel sorry for the issue, and Kosiro said he was aiming to achieve good results so he practiced the non-pro maps quite a lot. And he absolutely couldn't do anything about the scandle.
He further asked to consider that he tried his best actually although he was in a real bad shape.
He've heard about getting kicked out of team TL, but he will give his best for the team victory when he's allowed again to play the tournament.
I(Polaris) really hope this post gets through to TL master, and he feels regrets for the unlucky circumstances.
I know him quite well personally, he is a very nice boy and well-mannered gamer. I really hope that TL shows understanding and Kosiro does well again."
He added his email adress p.s. but I think he doesn't speak eng so I excluded. You can ask me or go to the link or just use this forum.
I hope it's true. I personally find the "bwchart fingerprint" idea to be bullshit. Hotkeys, APM and action percentages can vary greatly from game to game. Unfortunately, I've never seen any significant literature defending the practice of bwchart analysis and so there's nothing for me to argue against.
On September 24 2006 14:59 NonY wrote: I hope it's true. I personally find the "bwchart fingerprint" idea to be bullshit. Hotkeys, APM and action percentages can vary greatly from game to game. Unfortunately, I've never seen any significant literature defending the practice of bwchart analysis and so there's nothing for me to argue against.
totally agree, plus the games are insanely short, players apm can vary greatly during that short amount of time.
On September 24 2006 15:03 new_construct wrote: plus the games are insanely short, players apm can vary greatly during that short amount of time.
This is true !
Unless he does like Midas and sets hotkeys 1-0 to CC at the beginning of the game. A pattern like that is easy to trace; but i'm not sure if kosiro has an early game hotkey pattern.
i kinda feel bad myself for really believing all that, but i still can't say whether i believe anything or not anymore until there's an official decision about this stuff. but obviously i want to trust kosiro, as he is a good part of TL.net team.. > _>;;;
On September 24 2006 15:11 HungZerg wrote: how much support was there that it wasnt him in the first place?
not much if none at all im sure but that's because what we heard came from supposedly "official" people. we obviously won't know unless we were there but for now we just have to keep hopes up that he'll still be allowed to play for us
uh you're being just as quick to assume hes innocent as you say they were to claim hes guilty. this is a member of their own team mani exposed, i doubt they did it on little evidence.
The truth is yet to be revealed but I indeed think that it's too childish to make such an argument when one really cheated. And why would he claim innocence after already getting kicked out? There was only my post on PGR on the Korean side and the reaction was 'shocked', but not huge.
good news is its nice that he cares enough to make an attempt to get cleared, innoncent or not. when the kors got caught cheating in og) and stuff they just didnt care.
On September 23 2006 11:54 FrozenArbiter wrote: 1) Firefist is also on Pantech, yet he was apparently not drunk enough to be unable to play!?
Anyway, I'm no replay analyser so I'll just reserve judgement for now. If Kosiro is innocent then I hope it will be proven and everything will return to normal.
It might have helped if he had explained the situation at the time. Instead, judging from Mani's account it sounds like he disappeared and reappeared 20 minutes later without explaining anything:
On September 23 2006 07:39 Manifesto7 wrote: After losing the first game horribly, he disappeared for 20 minutes and then came back to stomp Draco the next two games. I talked with Draco after the game and he was very suspicious. After having both Midian and romad look at the replays (only a formality it was obvious even to me) it was determined that sea.firefist was the player in game 3.
I can understand why someone in his position might not say anything, though: 1. The language barrier. 2. He didn't realize he might be suspected of cheating. 3. He was drunk.
Lastly, is he aware that his team's manager was one of the first people to condemn him of cheating? In this kind of situation, his team's manager should be his first and foremost defender, who should at least try to stop people from jumping to conclusions before due process is followed. Edit: of course, if they already had very good proof (as Midian explains on the next page) then maybe this conclusion wasn't rushed after all.
So in the end, assuming Kosiro is innocent, I think that both Kosiro and the TL team management made mistakes. Kosiro should have shown more responsibility by not getting so drunk. And his management should not have judged him so quickly. I think there was a lack of respect from both sides. Both were understandable, though: Kosiro probably would have been disrespectful to his team if he hadn't celebrated with them, and it is difficult to show respect for a team member who has already shown you disrespect by showing up drunk.
(stricken-out since I'm doubting Kosiro is innocent)
Amazed to see how many of you believe that's he's telling the truth. After getting caught it's natural that people protest their innocence, many many people do it after being caught hacking too. Something along the lines of "there's no evidence i don't hack" then eventually it gets out that they did hack. This is the exact same thing, I'm sorry but there's simply no way it was Kosiro in game 3. Let's look at a few pieces of evidence:
1) After game 1 Kosiro goes away for 20 minutes (Ok he explained this and he ends up at Pantech HQ - this is actually where Sea.FireFist would've been anyway since he's a Pantech member, so maybe he's telling the truth about going there but it wasn't Kosiro who played in game3.) 2) Draco said himself that the skill of the zerg in games 2 and 3 were much better than that of the zerg in game 1. 3) Hotkeys. Kosiro assigns his first hatchery to 3 and 0 and his overlord to 1 and proceeds to spam the living shit out of his 1 and 3 keys. In game 1 this was also the case, but in game 3 it unfortunately wasn't. In game 3 he assigns his first hatchery only to 3 and overlord to 2 and spams the shit out of 2 and 3. If you think about it, people simply don't change things like this from one game to the other. For years I've been assigning my hatchery to 4 and 0 and my overlord to 1 3 and spamming 141414 and the odd use of 3 also. It's not something people change. 4) The account name. In game 1 the ID he used was "Kosiro" in game 3 it was "kosiro[shield]", kinda strange that he would change that from one game to another? Also the capitalisations are different which is also weird. I think this is a tiny detail but Sea.FireFist often (not always) writes his ID names as all lowercase.
It was played at pantech HQ, the hotkeys match those of Sea.FireFist, his skill level was different and he used a different ID name. To me that's 100% proof that it wasn't Kosiro playing.
In many many Who is Who PGTour threads myself, roMAD and starofNC busted a lot of good player's smurfs simply by analysis like this, and everytime we were right. This is not an exception, this was Sea.FireFist playing and not Kosiro[Shield].
On September 24 2006 15:15 HungZerg wrote: uh you're being just as quick to assume hes innocent as you say they were to claim hes guilty. this is a member of their own team mani exposed, i doubt they did it on little evidence.
I'm rather a too slow judge than a too fast, of course I was very excited of the news but still have cold head.
I'm just saying that by all repect for Romad, the procedure of idintifying players over replays might not be as certain as one thought before, due to the fact that progamers are trained into various styles and it was all-in strats both game(I haven't seen reps of course).
And there are some weak but still positive evidences. 1. The 20 mins could have been used for getting another player indeed, or for the headquarters as he said. 2. An eventual non-drunken sabotageur could actually think "Noob bash!" and go all-in and risk loosing foreign game, or he could go safe BO's where he would probably win. 3. Why would Kosiro claim innosence after getting kicked out, for the 1/8 chance of getting 1000$?
On September 24 2006 15:34 ToT)MidiaN( wrote: Amazed to see how many of you believe that's he's telling the truth. After getting caught it's natural that people protest their innocence, many many people do it after being caught hacking too. Something along the lines of "there's no evidence i don't hack" then eventually it gets out that they did hack. This is the exact same thing, I'm sorry but there's simply no way it was Kosiro in game 3. Let's look at a few pieces of evidence:
1) After game 1 Kosiro goes away for 20 minutes (Ok he explained this and he ends up at Pantech HQ - this is actually where Sea.FireFist would've been anyway since he's a Pantech member, so maybe he's telling the truth about going there but it wasn't Kosiro who played in game3.) 2) Draco said himself that the skill of the zerg in games 2 and 3 were much better than that of the zerg in game 1. 3) Hotkeys. Kosiro assigns his first hatchery to 3 and 0 and his overlord to 1 and proceeds to spam the living shit out of his 1 and 3 keys. In game 1 this was also the case, but in game 3 it unfortunately wasn't. In game 3 he assigns his first hatchery only to 3 and overlord to 2 and spams the shit out of 2 and 3. If you think about it, people simply don't change things like this from one game to the other. For years I've been assigning my hatchery to 4 and 0 and my overlord to 1 3 and spamming 141414 and the odd use of 3 also. It's not something people change. 4) The account name. In game 1 the ID he used was "Kosiro" in game 3 it was "kosiro[shield]", kinda strange that he would change that from one game to another? Also the capitalisations are different which is also weird. I think this is a tiny detail but Sea.FireFist often (not always) writes his ID names as all lowercase.
It was played at pantech HQ, the hotkeys match those of Sea.FireFist, his skill level was different and he used a different ID name. To me that's 100% proof that it wasn't Kosiro playing.
In many many Who is Who PGTour threads myself, roMAD and starofNC busted a lot of good player's smurfs simply by analysis like this, and everytime we were right. This is not an exception, this was Sea.FireFist playing and not Kosiro[Shield].
If you don't believe this check every ygclan rep of these 2 players, it's always 0 3 1 for kosiro and 3 2 for Firefist, I just checked.
So he either decided to change his hotkeys for 1 game out of all the reps out there of him, or it wasn't him. Which is more likely?
It's pretty sad he would lie to us after fucking us over like this. He needs to just apologize and hope bliz will let him stay in cause if he wants to make it up to us I'm sure he's capable of tearing up 95% of the people in this tourney
nice assumption, actually i did see them and yes they were both all in but the all in that kosiro did in game 1 was so unbelievably retarded that it's a fair statement to say that there was a skill difference between the play in games 1 and 3.
On September 24 2006 15:35 NeVeRDiEDrOnE wrote: 3. Why would Kosiro claim innosence after getting kicked out, for the 1/8 chance of getting 1000$?
I'm just guessing here, but maybe he will actually lose reputation in Korea if he's kicked/banned from the Sandlot for cheating? Or, maybe he actually wants to participate?
If he cheated, and would benefit at all from being proven innocent, then he might as well give it a shot.
Personally, Midian's post (especially point #3 about the hotkey change) sounds pretty damning to me. Firefist playing for Kosiro sounds like the best explanation for those differences he highlighted.
On September 24 2006 15:34 ToT)MidiaN( wrote: Amazed to see how many of you believe that's he's telling the truth. After getting caught it's natural that people protest their innocence, many many people do it after being caught hacking too. Something along the lines of "there's no evidence i don't hack" then eventually it gets out that they did hack. This is the exact same thing, I'm sorry but there's simply no way it was Kosiro in game 3. Let's look at a few pieces of evidence:
1) After game 1 Kosiro goes away for 20 minutes (Ok he explained this and he ends up at Pantech HQ - this is actually where Sea.FireFist would've been anyway since he's a Pantech member, so maybe he's telling the truth about going there but it wasn't Kosiro who played in game3.) 2) Draco said himself that the skill of the zerg in games 2 and 3 were much better than that of the zerg in game 1. 3) Hotkeys. Kosiro assigns his first hatchery to 3 and 0 and his overlord to 1 and proceeds to spam the living shit out of his 1 and 3 keys. In game 1 this was also the case, but in game 3 it unfortunately wasn't. In game 3 he assigns his first hatchery only to 3 and overlord to 2 and spams the shit out of 2 and 3. If you think about it, people simply don't change things like this from one game to the other. For years I've been assigning my hatchery to 4 and 0 and my overlord to 1 3 and spamming 141414 and the odd use of 3 also. It's not something people change. 4) The account name. In game 1 the ID he used was "Kosiro" in game 3 it was "kosiro[shield]", kinda strange that he would change that from one game to another? Also the capitalisations are different which is also weird. I think this is a tiny detail but Sea.FireFist often (not always) writes his ID names as all lowercase.
It was played at pantech HQ, the hotkeys match those of Sea.FireFist, his skill level was different and he used a different ID name. To me that's 100% proof that it wasn't Kosiro playing.
In many many Who is Who PGTour threads myself, roMAD and starofNC busted a lot of good player's smurfs simply by analysis like this, and everytime we were right. This is not an exception, this was Sea.FireFist playing and not Kosiro[Shield].
I'll play a bit of devil's advocate here, though I agree the evidence against him is greater than that for him.
1) Well, they're both PanTech members, so it's not really convincing either way. 2) If the first game was at PCBang where he was unused to keyboard/mouse, there will be skill difference. Like SEn vs Idra, where SEn was at grandma's house. [SEn's grandma owns a PC bang! Must visit next time I go to Taiwan ^^] 3) Different computers, IDs different capitalizations and such.
On September 24 2006 15:34 ToT)MidiaN( wrote: Amazed to see how many of you believe that's he's telling the truth. After getting caught it's natural that people protest their innocence, many many people do it after being caught hacking too. Something along the lines of "there's no evidence i don't hack" then eventually it gets out that they did hack. This is the exact same thing, I'm sorry but there's simply no way it was Kosiro in game 3. Let's look at a few pieces of evidence:
1) After game 1 Kosiro goes away for 20 minutes (Ok he explained this and he ends up at Pantech HQ - this is actually where Sea.FireFist would've been anyway since he's a Pantech member, so maybe he's telling the truth about going there but it wasn't Kosiro who played in game3.) 2) Draco said himself that the skill of the zerg in games 2 and 3 were much better than that of the zerg in game 1. 3) Hotkeys. Kosiro assigns his first hatchery to 3 and 0 and his overlord to 1 and proceeds to spam the living shit out of his 1 and 3 keys. In game 1 this was also the case, but in game 3 it unfortunately wasn't. In game 3 he assigns his first hatchery only to 3 and overlord to 2 and spams the shit out of 2 and 3. If you think about it, people simply don't change things like this from one game to the other. For years I've been assigning my hatchery to 4 and 0 and my overlord to 1 3 and spamming 141414 and the odd use of 3 also. It's not something people change. 4) The account name. In game 1 the ID he used was "Kosiro" in game 3 it was "kosiro[shield]", kinda strange that he would change that from one game to another? Also the capitalisations are different which is also weird. I think this is a tiny detail but Sea.FireFist often (not always) writes his ID names as all lowercase.
It was played at pantech HQ, the hotkeys match those of Sea.FireFist, his skill level was different and he used a different ID name. To me that's 100% proof that it wasn't Kosiro playing.
In many many Who is Who PGTour threads myself, roMAD and starofNC busted a lot of good player's smurfs simply by analysis like this, and everytime we were right. This is not an exception, this was Sea.FireFist playing and not Kosiro[Shield].
I have respect for your and Romads analysis and objective intentions, but 1. is evidence in either direction, and for 2. Kosiro explains himself. Over 3. I can't judge obviously and 4. evidence is just as small as mine in my last post. You surely know about different Caps in different reps from the same gamer.
I'm not saying you're wrong, since I can't judge 3rd point. But there isn't such a thing like 100% in the world of suspicion.
On September 24 2006 15:47 NeVeRDiEDrOnE wrote: I'm not saying you're wrong, since I can't judge 3rd point. But there isn't such a thing like 100% in the world of suspicion.
What's the point of saying that? You imply that 100% is actually necessary in some way. But 100% is never necessary to convict anyone for any alleged bad behaviour. And it's not like Kosiro is your child or spouse.
On September 24 2006 15:47 Bill307 wrote: [removed quote within quote]
I'm just guessing here, but maybe he will actually lose reputation in Korea if he's kicked/banned from the Sandlot for cheating? Or, maybe he actually wants to participate?
If he cheated, and would benefit at all from being proven innocent, then he might as well give it a shot.
Personally, Midian's post sounds pretty damning to me. Firefist playing for Kosiro sounds like the best explanation for those differences he highlighted.
Until now, there was only this one post of me on PGR dealing this matter, and there were total of 10 replies on the thread. As I said, reaction was shocked but not huge.
And except of that there isn't single post about it. Not even on FiFo (Haven't checked 24/7 but I think they didn't even make a news of this tournament). My oponion is that reputation doesn't count. Think of that he had to ask his friend to post the reply, and I had to move it to here. And have you seen that many translations from Korean community posts before? The connection between both communities is ridiculously weak.
But I have to agree that Midian's post is also convincing. Not 100% but convincing.
I would like a testimony from firefist, but I guess we will have to do with what we have.
Reconstructing the story: 1. Kosiro plays Draco as a zerg in a pc bang. The settings on the computer are unfavorable, and Kosiro decides to go all in, then leave the building to go to Pantech quarters to play the remaning 2 games. 2. 20 minutes later, the games resume, and Draco notices significant improvement in skill, however these claims cannot be backed, because there is no evidence in the form of a replay. Draco loses this match to someone called kosiro[shield]. 3. The third game is played, kosiro[shield] uses different hotkeys, and wins with another all in.
Possible theories: -Kosiro used firefist for game 3, and maybe game 2. -Draco decided that there wouldn't be enough evidence to disprove his claims about Kosiro's cheating, and decided to blame him. -Kosiro did not cheat, and Draco did not blame him falsely, implying that the game was messed up by computer hardware. Possible explanations may include a faulty keyboard with a screwed up "1" key.
jtan.. think about it. Omg he explained himself? The evidence should be reconsidered and if there's little or no doubt the call that is done should stand
On September 24 2006 15:55 Bill307 wrote: [removed quote within quote]
What's the point of saying that? You imply that 100% is actually necessary in some way. But 100% is never necessary to convict anyone for any alleged bad behaviour. And it's not like Kosiro is your child or spouse.
You sound more like you just want to argue than to discuss, as you are attacking him and he is objectively trying to defend Kosiro.
On September 24 2006 15:55 Bill307 wrote: [removed quote within quote]
What's the point of saying that? You imply that 100% is actually necessary in some way. But 100% is never necessary to convict anyone for any alleged bad behaviour. And it's not like Kosiro is your child or spouse.
You are right. It's not necessary for convicting the crimes. I just wanted to remind that the methode might eventually not be perfect.
And please don't get me wrong. I don't play bw anymore since like 2 years. I don't know the newer progamers, I don't follow the majority of pro-games, I just go to PGR first to look if there are any recommended games instead. I actually saw the aka's Kosiro and Polaris the first time in this tournament. And I'm definitely no nationalist living 7 years in Austria now, since my 14th age.
I'm just discussing the issue for the issues matter. The only reason that I made arguments only for Kosiro is the fact that I was the newsbringer from PGR actually.
On September 24 2006 14:59 NonY wrote: I hope it's true. I personally find the "bwchart fingerprint" idea to be bullshit. Hotkeys, APM and action percentages can vary greatly from game to game. Unfortunately, I've never seen any significant literature defending the practice of bwchart analysis and so there's nothing for me to argue against.
Well, trust me, it works really well.. You don't check hotkey percentages, you set the diagram to show hotkeys and you get a signature.
Anyway, I REALLY hope we made a mistake, he seemed nice in the channel (and even said something about being 'condition zero' because of the team dinner) so yeah, I hope he's telling the truth.
On September 24 2006 15:55 Bill307 wrote: [removed quote within quote]
What's the point of saying that? You imply that 100% is actually necessary in some way. But 100% is never necessary to convict anyone for any alleged bad behaviour. And it's not like Kosiro is your child or spouse.
100% surety is theoretically necessary in American criminal courts, no?
So basically what i get from midian's post is that the proof is that he changed ONE hotkey? you people must be unfamiliar with the concept of circumstantial evidence. You have 4 points, 3 of which can easily be dismissed and point #3 is so vague that it could be anything, maybe the key on his keyboard didnt work and he had to change it, maybe he was bored, it could be anything. Maybe I'm missing something but this doesnt seem very reasonable.
By the way, about the nicknames, rofl? He was 20 min afk, maybe he hurried to log on and just typed without caps? Maybe he had forgotten to use his clan tag in the first game? Again very weak point.
I thought the idea was that people are innocent until proven guilty. He has given a very believable explanation which although doesnt make him innocent it does weaken your arguments which are purely circumstantial.
Furthermore, if he won game 2, why would he need someone else to play for him in game 3? He suddenly lost confidence for no reason?
On September 24 2006 15:55 NeVeRDiEDrOnE wrote: But I have to agree that Midian's post is also convincing. Not 100% but convincing.
Well, this isn't 100% convincing either, but consider this: think about how hard it is for you to change one of your common habits. And think about how hard it is for a drunk person to concentrate and consciously focus their efforts. Now imagine a drunk person successfully changing a strong habit while simultaneously beating Draco in StarCraft: yeah, I really don't see that happening .
On September 24 2006 16:06 penitent exile wrote: [removed quote within quote]
100% surety is theoretically necessary in American criminal courts, no?
I'm not sure what you mean by "theoretical", but I believe it's not the word of the law (which requires "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" as we've all heard).
100% is impossible, anyway, and therefore I think it is irrelevant to even mention it .
On September 24 2006 16:07 Sabbath wrote: Furthermore, if he won game 2, why would he need someone else to play for him in game 3? He suddenly lost confidence for no reason?
no, theyre saying he switched after game 1. so it was firefist both 2 and 3.
it isnt too hard to switch hotkeys, especially something as minor as early game spamming, but theres no reason for him to have done it.
unfortunately, the balance of evidence against kosiro is overwhelming. admittedly, much of it is circumstantial, and a significant portion of the evidence provided by bwchart (which midian outlined above), but in a case like this, this is the best we have. i should also add that i was told directly after the charge was made against him that kosiro *admitted* having someone else play for him. of course, i did not hear it directly from his mouth but secondhand, so again people may challenge how foolproof this evidence is.
on the other hand, the evidence for innocence is so farfetched it goes beyond common rationality. if you're too drunk to play even a bnet newbie level game 1, how all of a sudden after 20 minutes are you good enough to play in game 2 and 3 to beat a fairly high caliber player in draco? simply the effectiveness of "all-in" strats? this in and of itself is farfetched. being at a pc room, catching a cab or running back home, sobering up, and being ready to rock and roll in 20 minutes? this is pretty farfetched too. the power of korean soju is greater than a coffee and a cold shower.
as for motive, i'd think that a progamer being discovered for abusing during a tournament, no matter how small beans it is (and upto 1,700 dollars is not that bad for 4 hours of work), amounts to enough motivation to claim innocence. progamers are public figures nowadays, the industry is professionalized (they are, after all, representing corporations now) and players are under the microscope more than ever before.
on the other hand, if it is the case that he is "wrongfully" charged, of course he is owed a great apology, and i will be the first to offer it. i will continue to monitor the situation and investigate further but you've heard it from the horse's mouth-- considering the evidence, kosiro is definitely guilty until proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is innocent.
On September 24 2006 16:13 BlackJack wrote: It's 'reasonable doubt' not '100%' that the courts go by. I don't see how anyone can reasonably stray from Midian's analysis. Just my take.
They use their overwhelming ignorance of the facts to cloud the verdict.
"I don't understand bwchart so he must be innocent"
On September 24 2006 16:05 FrozenArbiter wrote: [removed quote within quote] Well, trust me, it works really well.. You don't check hotkey percentages, you set the diagram to show hotkeys and you get a signature.
Anyway, I REALLY hope we made a mistake, he seemed nice in the channel (and even said something about being 'condition zero' because of the team dinner) so yeah, I hope he's telling the truth.
No no, I'm not trusting anyone. Nobody has published anything convincing about the methods used. Even if all my arguments are countered properly and later confessions prove Midian/Romad to be correct, I still maintain the entirely valid point that nobody has any reason to believe that the analyses are infallible.
About not looking at percentages but rather at the diagram: I know they look at the diagram you described and I thought I implied that practice when I said that hotkeys can vary. I can't imagine that a player who varies his hotkeys and the time at which he assigns them can still be traced through the diagram, since it will look completely different. I also mentioned action percentages and APM because I recall that those figures have been used as secondary support to the hotkey comparisons.
By "theoretically" I meant by the letter of the law, and I meant to differentiate it from practically. Whatever, I am not too familiar with law.
Back to the main issue, then.
I remember back when people were deciding who skyinthesea/lastgamer/etc/etc were, there was still a great deal of controversy over whether or not LG = YellOw or not, even with all the evidence [2XX apm, 890 starting town hall, etc] So I'm still not sure how much I trust bwchart analysis, even if the analyzers are such skilled and experienced people as Midian.
On September 24 2006 16:17 L!MP wrote: does anyone have a link to those 2 reps that were saved? i cant seem to find them on ygclan and would like to take a look and see myself.
On September 24 2006 16:12 uhjoo wrote: unfortunately, the balance of evidence against kosiro is overwhelming. admittedly, much of it is circumstantial, and a significant portion of the evidence provided by bwchart (which midian outlined above), but in a case like this, this is the best we have. i should also add that i was told directly after the charge was made against him that kosiro *admitted* having someone else play for him. of course, i did not hear it directly from his mouth but secondhand, so again people may challenge how foolproof this evidence is.
on the other hand, the evidence for innocence is so farfetched it goes beyond common rationality. if you're too drunk to play even a bnet newbie level game 1, how all of a sudden after 20 minutes are you good enough to play in game 2 and 3 to beat a fairly high caliber player in draco? simply the effectiveness of "all-in" strats? this in and of itself is farfetched. being at a pc room, catching a cab or running back home, sobering up, and being ready to rock and roll in 20 minutes? this is pretty farfetched too. the power of korean soju is greater than a coffee and a cold shower.
as for motive, i'd think that a progamer being discovered for abusing during a tournament, no matter how small beans it is (and upto 1,700 dollars is not that bad for 4 hours of work), amounts to enough motivation to claim innocence. progamers are public figures nowadays, the industry is professionalized (they are, after all, representing corporations now) and players are under the microscope more than ever before.
on the other hand, if it is the case that he is "wrongfully" charged, of course he is owed a great apology, and i will be the first to offer it. i will continue to monitor the situation and investigate further but you've heard it from the horse's mouth-- considering the evidence, kosiro is definitely guilty until proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is innocent.
What's the proof of him being drunk? The story goes, the pcbang computer was bad and that's why he played like a mofo.. I didn't read a word about him being drunk from the statement in this thread. Seriously him being totally drunk does not make sense to me, seing how "the industry is professionalized (they are, after all, representing corporations now) and players are under the microscope more than ever before."
But then again i'm not going to go against midian on this one I just hope it get's discussed and argued over so much that not one aspect is forgotten =P
Maybe he only used those hotkeys in the replays he released to the public. I think it'd help his cause if he showed another replay of him using those hotkeys. The name tag thing, not really a big deal, if it was on LAN you'd probably have a few nicks saved already. So yeah.
Players of Kosiro's level do not change their hotkays like we saw in the two reps. I dont care how drunk you are, when you play as much as he does, in the same matchup, on the same map, you do not change. There was not one hotkey change, but MANY. The first game hotkeys #1-5 were used only. The second game, hotkeys 1-5 and 7-9 were used. The order of hotkeying was also different. This does not happen with the same person.
Midian and romad have been identifying players like this for years, and I have never ever seen them be wrong. All those PGT threads, they bust people, and they arent wrong.
Draco's teammate talked to kosiro after the event and he admitted it. In addition, the kosiro i talked to after the third game and before the first game had different levels of english ability. As a professional ESL teacher, I notice these things.
I do wish Draco had saved the second replay. It would clear many things up with another piece of evidence. However, Draco gave me no reason to not believe him, and his reactions were convincing. Why is kosiro changing his story now? Maybe as uhjoo said, he doesnt want to lose reputation, as he represents a company. There are many other hungry gamers out there who could replace him.
I think he cheated. Unless someone can give me evidence otherwise (other than Polaris making a post) then I don't consider kosiro as part of the team.
Eh ... I think the problem is also, we don't have a game two to judge. So really all this is based off ONE game which most people know, can always be flukey. Secondly, he didn't say in his story that he was drunk or anything. There's no telling how much a hangover affected him since it makes perfect sense (if the pc cafe was really unfavorable) to do bad in a sucky environment and then simply do a rush to try to get it over with so you can switch to another PC. Twenty minutes isn't that short of time and there's no "distance" we can measure to verify the story. There's evidence against him and such but still I suppose I want TL to win so I'm willing to give benefit of the doubt.
On September 24 2006 16:12 uhjoo wrote: on the other hand, the evidence for innocence is so farfetched it goes beyond common rationality. if you're too drunk to play even a bnet newbie level game 1, how all of a sudden after 20 minutes are you good enough to play in game 2 and 3 to beat a fairly high caliber player in draco? simply the effectiveness of "all-in" strats? this in and of itself is farfetched. being at a pc room, catching a cab or running back home, sobering up, and being ready to rock and roll in 20 minutes? this is pretty farfetched too. the power of korean soju is greater than a coffee and a cold shower.
hes not claiming he sobered up, he said it was the combination of the pc cafe conditions and being drunk, and that after returning to the pantech house he played allin since he was still drunk.
On September 24 2006 16:19 penitent exile wrote: By "theoretically" I meant by the letter of the law, and I meant to differentiate it from practically. Whatever, I am not too familiar with law.
Back to the main issue, then.
I remember back when people were deciding who skyinthesea/lastgamer/etc/etc were, there was still a great deal of controversy over whether or not LG = YellOw or not, even with all the evidence [2XX apm, 890 starting town hall, etc] So I'm still not sure how much I trust bwchart analysis, even if the analyzers are such skilled and experienced people as Midian.
Excuse me but it's not like they wrote a 2000 pages of evidence a normal person can't understand. You don't need to trust them just use logics.
The way he used hotkeys changed in such a way that it looks like a totally different player (explained in detail by midian). Why would he change his hotkey behavior?
I'm very surprised when reading this. When I first saw that Kosiro had been drunk and let FireFist play for him, I thought this was based on him admitting it upon being confronted. Now it appears that it was solely based on hotkeys. Quite an outrage.
I assume that him being drunk was something he said to TL captain himself (I think I recall something about that last thread). If someone was with him and said that he was drunk, they would know whether it was him playing. Obviously, the skill he exhibits will be different when he uses a good setup instead of a bad one. Just like sEn playing from his grandmother's in his match - I don't think anyone would have imagined him losing to IdrA.
I'd find great differences in playing-style much more convincing than marginal hotkey proof. Normally, the differences in hotkeys will be extensive between two players (in WC3, at least, not sure how much is changed in Starcraft), but here we only have little difference. It was quite simple two different groupings. He was reportedly drunk. Maybe he did it for the hell of it or just incidentally. Either way, you decide to change a two groupings (not too significant, if this is how Firefist plays he could have surely learned to play this was from him), play a game, and end up getting kicked from a tournament because of that. How would you lot like that?
Really don't like the evidence here. I won't be quick to assume that Kosiro is innocent, and I haven't even watched the games, but the accusations against him seem quite weak. Seems entirely unprofessional to announce this as the truth, making Firefist guilty, too (even if many people probably use the same hotkeys, him just being more likely because he's close to Kosiro) with no way of being even remotely sure that it is the actual truth.
Also I want to point out, that certain hotkey groupings makes certain strats easier to execute. If he was doing an all in rush, it's entirely feasible that he swaps his hotkeys to execute the strat. Unless you can pull up more replays of Kosiro doing all in rushes, besides game 1 (where he was already supposed playing under a distressed position), I still think there's room for error on the judgement.
On September 24 2006 16:32 KissBlade wrote: Also I want to point out, that certain hotkey groupings makes certain strats easier to execute. If he was doing an all in rush, it's entirely feasible that he swaps his hotkeys to execute the strat. Unless you can pull up more replays of Kosiro doing all in rushes, besides game 1 (where he was already supposed playing under a distressed position), I still think there's room for error on the judgement.
Finding an all-in rep of Kosiro is like finding a throbbing cock in zia's pants.
But don't let the whole not knowing anything stop you from posting. it's not stopping anyone else :/
On September 24 2006 16:33 racebannon wrote: [removed quote within quote]
Finding an all-in rep of Kosiro is like finding a throbbing cock in zia's pants.
But don't let the whole not knowing anything stop you from posting. it's not stopping anyone else :/
So just pull up some similar games to game 3 that Kosiro played in and match them. I think the evidence is against him but I'd really like to believe him simply because it would give TL more of a shot for winning Sandlot.
On September 24 2006 16:25 Manifesto7 wrote: Players of Kosiro's level do not change their hotkays like we saw in the two reps. I dont care how drunk you are, when you play as much as he does, in the same matchup, on the same map, you do not change. There was not one hotkey change, but MANY. The first game hotkeys #1-5 were used only. The second game, hotkeys 1-5 and 7-9 were used. The order of hotkeying was also different. This does not happen with the same person.
Midian and romad have been identifying players like this for years, and I have never ever seen them be wrong. All those PGT threads, they bust people, and they arent wrong.
1-5 and 7-9 doesnt really matter that much, when playing z i hotkey my hatches 3-4 early game and then switch to 0-7 later on, when i set the hatches to the upper hotkeys depends on when i remember to do it which varies alot game to game. that part means nothing, its the differences in spamming patterns that are incriminating.
also there isnt really a check on correctness of the whos who threads. romad says smurf a is player 1 and it goes up on the list. especially involving the koreans theres rarely any confirmation or denial. i think it is fairly accurate but to say the hotkey checkers are infallible and use their performance in the pgt threads as proof isnt right.
On September 24 2006 16:32 KissBlade wrote: Also I want to point out, that certain hotkey groupings makes certain strats easier to execute. If he was doing an all in rush, it's entirely feasible that he swaps his hotkeys to execute the strat. Unless you can pull up more replays of Kosiro doing all in rushes, besides game 1 (where he was already supposed playing under a distressed position), I still think there's room for error on the judgement.
that is true. i would change hotkeys so that important buildings were close to the 1234 when i'm doing an allin or rush style.
imo the replay evidence is decent but not definitive. maybe i'm too leniant, but i take a "reasonable doubt" approach regarding cheaters. there is reasonable doubt here i'd say. if i was the guy in charge i'd have given kos the win, but also a warning and a "we'll be watching you closely" comment.
After reading Manifesto's post (which was posted while I was writing mine), it seems that the hotkey differences are too big to be incidental. So, it has to have been a conscious choice, either to fit playing style or due to him playing less seriously. [Edit: After having read HungZerg's post, the hotkey differences that Manifesto mentioned might be the difference between early and mid-game, depending on what's necessary in the situation. So, my statement above in this paragraph might not be true.]
My comment was based on MidiaN's post. Seeing that he was one of the main persons behind this investigation, I thought he would bring forth all relevant evidence. However, if Kosiro really did admit to cheating, then there cannot be much doubt. Is there any evidence of that, however?
Different levels of English says nothing in itself. If he has problems expressing himself in English he might have had someone help him. I see no reason for FireFist also to communicate with the captain in Kosiro's place. Is the theory that Kosiro has simple dozes off or left the building?
It is true that Kosiro might easily be desperate to prove his entegrity and save his honour in the eyes of the Koreans, as this being talked about publicly in the Korean scene will surely lower people's estimation of him.
On September 24 2006 16:37 KissBlade wrote: [removed quote within quote]
So just pull up some similar games to game 3 that Kosiro played in and match them.
or better yet, pull up some of firefist's games and compare the 2323232323 spamming in the first 10 seconds of the game where all that strategy will change the way you hotkey
I think the evidence is against him but I'd really like to believe him simply because it would give TL more of a shot for winning Sandlot.
oh yes this is a great attitude
on the flip side, mani being forthright about kosiro's "alleged" behavior is a testament to sticking by your principles rather than just wanting to win win win
On September 24 2006 16:40 HungZerg wrote: [removed quote within quote] 1-5 and 7-9 doesnt really matter that much, when playing z i hotkey my hatches 3-4 early game and then switch to 0-7 later on, when i set the hatches to the upper hotkeys depends on when i remember to do it which varies alot game to game. that part means nothing, its the differences in spamming patterns that are incriminating.
also there isnt really a check on correctness of the whos who threads. romad says smurf a is player 1 and it goes up on the list. especially involving the koreans theres rarely any confirmation or denial. i think it is fairly accurate but to say the hotkey checkers are infallible and use their performance in the pgt threads as proof isnt right.
Well, 1) StarofNC and Romad were, for awhile, replay-analyzers for 2 proteams.. Seriously, they'd be msned constantly with reps like 'who is this!!' (one time I remember 2 guys gave one of them the same replay at the exact same time :D).
2) They personally talked to many of the people they found out =]
I'm sure they have been wrong, but those few times it's been 'hm, this COULD be X' not 'This is X'.
Honestly, I really, really wish Kosiro is innocent and that he's able to prove it, but the evidence is all against him :[
I hope he did this with good intentions (ie feeling bad about being drunk and having forgot he had to play this and wanting to fix it), and if so, that it doesn't impact his career negatively.. -.-
Another piece of information : Both Sea.FireFist and Kosiro have been known to share IDs before. Kosiro has done it with other [Shield] members in various west clan leagues. Sea.FireFist smurfed on Sea.Jang's oG) account in ToT vs oG). People said i was wrong then too, they were wrong. The proof may not be 100% but I would say I'm about 99.936% sure that it wasn't Kosiro and about 90% that the zerg who actually played was Sea.FireFist. Bed time for me~ i got nothing more to say on this matter anyway
I don't suppose there's a way they could just rematch the whole thing? Though Midian's new smurfing comment does suggest a history which is even more against Kosiro. =\
Too bad, I was actually excited when I first read this post thinking that TL had a shot after all.
On September 24 2006 16:25 Manifesto7 wrote: Players of Kosiro's level do not change their hotkays like we saw in the two reps. I dont care how drunk you are, when you play as much as he does, in the same matchup, on the same map, you do not change. There was not one hotkey change, but MANY. The first game hotkeys #1-5 were used only. The second game, hotkeys 1-5 and 7-9 were used. The order of hotkeying was also different. This does not happen with the same person.
Only hotkeys #1-5 were used in both games. The diagram lights up because he assigned hotkeys 7-10 but he never uses them after he assigns them. He continues to use hotkeys 1-5 in the same way despite having made assignments once. Besides that, watch the games. In the 3rd game, at the time when you would expect him to assign his hatcheries 7 and 8, he is microing his lings. I wouldn't expect him to make hotkey assignments at high numbers while he is microing lings. He simply keeps to the system of hotkeys 1 and 2 as lings, and hotkeys 3 4 5 for the hatcheries. However in the first game, he's forgotten his overlord and so he has absolutely nothing to do at the time he puts down his 3rd hatchery. So of course he can do his normal high number hotkeys.
On September 24 2006 16:25 Manifesto7 wrote: Midian and romad have been identifying players like this for years, and I have never ever seen them be wrong. All those PGT threads, they bust people, and they arent wrong.
I'm not saying that this is false but rather that it's not clearly documented. And even if you can document it all, the data still needs to be analyzed to see if it's actually conclusive. The most defense I hear is Midian saying "Well here you can see that this is happening, and, well, players just don't do that." There's been no mass sampling of replays to show what players do and what they don't do. There's been no extenuating circumstances taken into account (ie no warmup, different keyboard/mouse, the actual flow and actions of the game, etc). Basically it's just all very sloppy and I don't understand how you can all be so accepting of making such methods as the turning point of a very important decision.
On September 24 2006 16:25 Manifesto7 wrote: Draco's teammate talked to kosiro after the event and he admitted it. In addition, the kosiro i talked to after the third game and before the first game had different levels of english ability. As a professional ESL teacher, I notice these things.
Of course, I can't comment on the validity of your judgment based on your experience as a teacher. However I can definitely imagine you being wrong without going out of the realm of possibility. About the confession. I'd need to know the circumstances to judge it. However, it apparently wasn't a very clear-cut thing since the replay analysis has been the main argument against him. No need for that with a confession.
On September 24 2006 16:25 Manifesto7 wrote: I think he cheated. Unless someone can give me evidence otherwise (other than Polaris making a post) then I don't consider kosiro as part of the team.
Hopefully I've given you some good reasons. But now I turn the tables and ask some things about your theoretical story. Why would polaris jump in a sinking ship? Why would you conclude your replay analysis without hearing a defense from the player himself?
I still say ask korsiro to submit his replays using those hotkeys. I doubt he released all his replays, the replays your judging now is the replays that are released, but how about the ones that aren't? How about his practice games or other ones?
On September 24 2006 16:25 Manifesto7 wrote: Players of Kosiro's level do not change their hotkays like we saw in the two reps.
Not only would we have to believe that he changed his hotkeys in the middle of a series, we'd also have to believe that he changed them to match another gamer's hotkeys. Another owning by Occam's razor t.t
On September 24 2006 16:40 HungZerg wrote: also there isnt really a check on correctness of the whos who threads. romad says smurf a is player 1 and it goes up on the list. especially involving the koreans theres rarely any confirmation or denial. i think it is fairly accurate but to say the hotkey checkers are infallible and use their performance in the pgt threads as proof isnt right.
Yes I agree with this. That's one of the ways I'd cast doubt on the whole method. Also I'd like to see how many of the cases they have done are as confusing as this one. I'd imagine many of them are a lot more clear cut.
I only see the hotkey thing as something important in all the accusing, and still not probatory. I must admit that if this was on another circumstances, and involving a less important player(for the TL.net community) we probably would have already tied the guy to the tl.net horse and gave him a nice floor ride to peel his ass. Now, I, as many people here are willing to believe this could be just a big mistake in the accusation, so kosiro might be innocent and he can tear it for us on upcoming games. And thats why im really looking forward the decision made about this. If they say kosiro is guilty, we can then choose his substitute. Theres some nice asskicking zergs out there too. Maybe we can bring back to life JessicA~ aka Teh Macro. We might not win the whole thing, but for sure we will have some fun.
On September 24 2006 16:22 Patriot.dlk wrote: [removed quote within quote]
What's the proof of him being drunk? The story goes, the pcbang computer was bad and that's why he played like a mofo.. I didn't read a word about him being drunk from the statement in this thread. Seriously him being totally drunk does not make sense to me, seing how "the industry is professionalized (they are, after all, representing corporations now) and players are under the microscope more than ever before."
he was drunk the moment i arrived in the channel, apologizing for his condition. he repeatedly said he was sorry for this (i believe him still that he was sorry).
him being totally drunk makes complete sense in a korean context. after pantech's big win, the corporate sponsors apparently took some members of the team out (some members, i.e. firefist, probably stayed at hq). kosiro told me that an important official from P&C were giving him and the other players shots, which in korean society you just don't refuse. so i emphathize with his situation-- he very well may have been wanting to play and do well in this tourney, but could not avoid getting hammered. anyone who has worked in korea knows exactly what i'm talking about.
in fact, i do think he wasn't just blowing off this tourney-- he was put in an awkward position, went through the trouble of going to a pc room, and went through the trouble of finding someone else to play for him.
but that doesn't excuse getting someone else to play for him (taking a forfeit loss, or just losing horribly 2:0 while drunk-- something people would understand and even respect, and perhaps would have added at least entertainment value to this tourney!), and certainly doesn't excuse this latest cover up attempt.
i really really hope i end up eating my words later. but i doubt it.
ask any good player if they switch their hotkeys randomly like that early game in the same matchup on same maps you play regularly.
It just doesnt add up honestly --v
Unles sof course you have replays of him playign for sure and he does the same thing as he does in game 3 from time to time(some people may do this just because they are bored or whatever, but its highly unlikely progamers switch hotkeys like that with the amount of technical practice they have)
On September 24 2006 17:13 RamenStyle wrote: If they say kosiro is guilty, we can then choose his substitute. Theres some nice asskicking zergs out there too. Maybe we can bring back to life JessicA~ aka Teh Macro. We might not win the whole thing, but for sure we will have some fun.
i just woke up, saw the thread and am now looking through all the firefist replays i have, however out of the 13 or so I see, from hotkeying along i see about three distinctive patterns and apms. So pretty much right now i'm as confused as you guys are, will download more from yg and compare. In the meanwhile does anyone have an updated roster of pantech
Compared all the Kosiro replays, from the ones in Kouros[fou] replay pack from awhile ago to the 2 games uploaded on jopd a few days ago. Kosiro ALWAYS, has 1 3 0, then 4 9 and maybe a 1. That pattern is consistent in every replay of Kosiro for every matchup. 3rd game vs draco the hotkeys at the start are 123 111, from that pretty sure it wasn't Kosiro, however i'm not sure if that was firefist either. And about players changing hotkeys depending on strat/rush? I disagree, the first 5 seconds of a game are instincts. Unless you consciously manipulate it and try to be someone else you will not just suddenly change your starting hotkeys because it doesn't do anything. That's especially true for zerg because there's no "natural" order to hotkey your hatches/ovies/drones at the beginning. For toss I know most of y'all do 0 or 0/9 nexus, then 1 probe, 3 gate or something like that. And for terran, 3 cc 1 scv is pretty common. For zerg it really differs from player to player. I'm convinced game 3 wasn't Kosiro.
well i think the hotkey usage is good enough proof as well... it was also not the time to test some alternate hotkeys or something cause you know you will be slower with them unless you are very used to it... i think its obvious it wasnt him playing just from all things i saw in this topic, not much added value but midian and roman are right
I will admit it doesnt look good for Kosiro. HOWEVER, the way I feel about a cheating situation, is that untill the player is proven quilty beyond a resonable doubt, he shouldnt be condemed. From personal experience, I was banned from TLT for 'hacking' the wgtour website. Those who know me simply laughed out loud when they found this out, as I am propably one of the least computer savy people out there. Yet I was banned for the 3/4 of TLT, completely runing my chances to compete with most of the top gamers in the tourney, and wasting my 10$. I still have no idea WHY they thought it was me, but I do know it realy sucks to be blamed for something you did not do.
Not to mention the hours I put in every day trying to talk with wgtour admins. God that was a horrible experience.
you guys can't be this dumb. they're obviously two different people, you don't change the way you select hotkeys in an hour, specially when playing as vigorously as koreans in a professional team.
kosiro was caught in a lie, and fisheye is... fisheye. sad that THIS team has to go through this unnecessary trouble.
On September 24 2006 18:06 Zeto wrote: you guys can't be this dumb. they're obviously two different people, you don't change the way you select hotkeys in an hour, specially when playing as vigorously as koreans in a professional team.
I assume in both games, he was selecting his hotkeys using his left hand's fingers. I don't think we can really know though; it's just speculation. But I don't see what that has to do with anything.
first of all, i read all of the replies before posting this. -.-
wtf. I think an apology is enough for me. if kosiro did practice on maps he'll never play in for the rest of his progaming career because korean leagues won't use foreigner maps, i'd say he should be given another chance.
the evidence against him is overwhelming, and thanks to the analyzers, he has been "busted." however from what uhjoo said, and that drinking invitation, it is inevitable for him to not get drunk. If that was the case, I'm surprised that HE EVEN FOUND A WAY TO PLAY REGARDLESS OF HIS CONDITION.
yes, i'm also changing my stance on the issue, from "kosiro is stupid" to "kosiro has no choice about being drunk, and should be forgiven and deserves another chance." but i don't think those people at blizzard who didn't treat the competition in a professional way (from picking the logos to the laziness showed by them according to mani) would allow him to play again.
the match is over, TL lost, only FA won a matech. the sandlot is far from over. assuming if kosiro himself were to play without any shadow of doubt from this point on, nobody would care about this issue anymore except from those retarded, way too nostalgic people in the next few months.
I sort of agree, but somehow him saying it was him.. Hm, he made matters worse if it really was n't.
Honestly, I understand why he did all this and I think he did it with good intentions, and because I actually would want him on my team in terms of skill (+ come on, drunken mistakes are easier forgiven).. blah.
Far it is more serious thought than.. The TL pan Taeg pro league condition it won at mastering end and it came out and it dined together, the Kosiro of the TL side (economy hundred million) the bow took and the alcoholic beverage the first game it came, after 20 minutes and and the nose it came two conditions compared to the printed style of writing tu it won but.. The green onion sprouts and tu the nose bow of forum side proposes different meaning, inside TL mastering and the midi the result third condition which the bow back analyzes together Kim Jae Choon (Sea.Firefist) your bedspread which it judges in alternate condition of the bow. (li Flow it sees). It was like that and that condition controlled and confiscation phay it drew out the Kosiro bow, well! the army bedspread.. It lost 1 Pig and it threw away.. Nine like this there is an uglily be day, ni.. Only it is noisy.
.....
anyway, I really do hope he isn't lying, but hopefully it's resolved soon
interesting, but after reading the whole thread i find that the evidence is equally balanced, because it has a lot of weak points (the prosecutors) but some strong. For example the hotkey thing has been weakened after those "fingerprints"
But for the defense, its actually really suspicious that he recovered shape just like that in 20 mins. But im really hoping kosiro isnt cheating.
ok i compared the hotkeys of about 10 firefist replays under different smurfs, etc. He is the most inconsistent hotkeyer i have ever seen. There's really not a stable, identifiable pattern. I guess the only thing you can say is that he sometimes uses 2 or 3 or 2/3 for hatches at start, then hotkeys 1 a lot, then units, regroup for hatches with 5-7, then back to units. The only thing I'm sure about is that for the 2-3 replays of him having 380 apm and using 123456 as hatches at the start, that's definitely not him, i don't know who it is. Besides that everything else is a maybe. If there were more candidates I could compare but guessing firefist is probably the only zerg on pantech that has 250-300 apm and those apm %, it most likely was him.
On September 24 2006 18:31 KissBlade wrote: Alright think of this, if it's possible for sea.firefist to have inconsistent hotkey patterns, what's to stop Kosiro from doing the same?
On September 24 2006 18:31 KissBlade wrote: Alright think of this, if it's possible for sea.firefist to have inconsistent hotkey patterns, what's to stop Kosiro from doing the same?
Inconsistent doesn't imply random, however, so we would have to find a legit Kosiro replay with a similar fingerprint to game 3 for that logic to work.
Assuming it was him (and come on, face it, all the evidence points to it), his day probably went something like this.
He really wanted to play in the sandlot and do well, but because of pantech's proleague victory, he was taken drinking and couldn't refuse. He returned drunk, yet still hadn't forgotten about his sandlot match, and decided to go to a pc bang alone and play his games (a very nice thing to do I might add). He played the first game, but quickly realized he was way too drunk, and had no chance to win the series. He felt bad about this, because he didn't want to let his team down (and wanted the money too I suppose), and, figuring nobody would look too closely at the replays, went back to the pantech headquarters, and let firefist play.
While this may be a very wrong thing to do, and it definitely was cheating, I think it's quite understandable, especially considering he was drunk. With an apology, I think TL should even have taken him back on the team.
I really wish he would've admitted everything, because now, it gets much dirtier. If he's proven guilty, he not only cheated, but later on (when he was completely sober again) lied as well, which makes it much worse in my opinion.
I REALLY hope he can prove himself innocent, and rock the sandlot with us.
On September 24 2006 18:34 zdd wrote: [removed quote within quote] Inconsistent doesn't imply random, however, so we would have to find a legit Kosiro replay with a similar fingerprint to game 3 for that logic to work.
no, all you would need to do is to establish that kosiro has inconsistant hotkey patterns.
On September 24 2006 17:37 zulu_nation8 wrote: Compared all the Kosiro replays, from the ones in Kouros[fou] replay pack from awhile ago to the 2 games uploaded on jopd a few days ago. Kosiro ALWAYS, has 1 3 0, then 4 9 and maybe a 1. That pattern is consistent in every replay of Kosiro for every matchup. 3rd game vs draco the hotkeys at the start are 123 111, from that pretty sure it wasn't Kosiro, however i'm not sure if that was firefist either. And about players changing hotkeys depending on strat/rush? I disagree, the first 5 seconds of a game are instincts. Unless you consciously manipulate it and try to be someone else you will not just suddenly change your starting hotkeys because it doesn't do anything. That's especially true for zerg because there's no "natural" order to hotkey your hatches/ovies/drones at the beginning. For toss I know most of y'all do 0 or 0/9 nexus, then 1 probe, 3 gate or something like that. And for terran, 3 cc 1 scv is pretty common. For zerg it really differs from player to player. I'm convinced game 3 wasn't Kosiro.
That is only one way to look at the analysis and it's biased. The initial analysis was short-sighted as I have already pointed out. One doesn't need to look any farther than the other player in the very same replays. Draco hotkeys radically differently in the two games but it's easily explanable by examining the actions in the game (1gate and fast expansion). By looking at the game and the hotkeying as a combined story, we can see why someone would have made the hotkeys 789 in one game and not in the other. 78 are made while waiting on an overlord, whereas in the other game lings are being micro'd at that point. It's unreasonable to expect that pattern to be the same in both games. 9 is made for the 12th drone going to make a hatchery, but in the second game the build order is different (9pool). The only things unexplainable are the initial hotkeying and spamming, which incidentally are the least influential actions in the entire game.
I believe the burden is on the accusers to explain why it is in Kosiro's strong interest to never stray from the pattern used in game 1. Of course they avoid this and only say that it's uncommon for players to do different actions even when they're insignificant. What it boils down to, then, is kosiro's word against the opinion that players are unlikely to change the insignificant beginning actions of a game. Seeing as how the opinion hasn't been supported by anything more than personal testimony and samples of replays so small that they're irrelevant, I'm inclined to have trust.
That said, I don't believe that it's impossible to sufficiently support the claims of the replay analysts. I believe they made some mistakes in trying to find differences in their play in any part of the replay except for the first 30 seconds. However I think a case can be made of that first 30 seconds if they proved that players unconditionally do nearly the exact same actions at the beginning of every game, even when the actions are completely insignificant for the remainder of the game. And yes I think that'd take a bit of work but I believe you are obligated to a bit of work before you call someone a cheat and a liar. And beside that, any work done now could continue to be used in cases beyond kosiro.
Spamming the initial hotkeys is easily explained considering most players warm up by spamming. If you're selecting a new set of hotkeys for a certain build, it's only natural that you would spam it to warm yourself up to it.
On September 24 2006 18:43 NonY wrote: [removed quote within quote]
That is only one way to look at the analysis and it's biased. The initial analysis was short-sighted as I have already pointed out. One doesn't need to look any farther than the other player in the very same replays. Draco hotkeys radically differently in the two games but it's easily explanable by examining the actions in the game (1gate and fast expansion). By looking at the game and the hotkeying as a combined story, we can see why someone would have made the hotkeys 789 in one game and not in the other. 78 are made while waiting on an overlord, whereas in the other game lings are being micro'd at that point. It's unreasonable to expect that pattern to be the same in both games. 9 is made for the 12th drone going to make a hatchery, but in the second game the build order is different (9pool). The only things unexplainable are the initial hotkeying and spamming, which incidentally are the least influential actions in the entire game.
I believe the burden is on the accusers to explain why it is in Kosiro's strong interest to never stray from the pattern used in game 1. Of course they avoid this and only say that it's uncommon for players to do different actions even when they're insignificant. What it boils down to, then, is kosiro's word against the opinion that players are unlikely to change the insignificant beginning actions of a game. Seeing as how the opinion hasn't been supported by anything more than personal testimony and samples of replays so small that they're irrelevant, I'm inclined to have trust.
That said, I don't believe that it's impossible to sufficiently support the claims of the replay analysts. I believe they made some mistakes in trying to find differences in their play in any part of the replay except for the first 30 seconds. However I think a case can be made of that first 30 seconds if they proved that players unconditionally do nearly the exact same actions at the beginning of every game, even when the actions are completely insignificant for the remainder of the game. And yes I think that'd take a bit of work but I believe you are obligated to a bit of work before you call someone a cheat and a liar. And beside that, any work done now could continue to be used in cases beyond kosiro.
Why does he start every single game in every single replay available of him in the exact same way except for the game in question?
I understand you're having fun playing internet lawyer but you're really going to lengths to conveniently ignore very simple facts
nony has very valid points, and you dont have to go to great lengths at all to follow them. there are logical explanations for not re-hotkeying the higher hatches, that is something that is done to prepare for later on in the game. ling micro is obviously an immediate priority over it.
the biggest, and only solid, incriminating piece of evidence is the early game spam which serves no purpose other than warm up. i dont know how many reps are available but unless you have pretty significant proof that he never ever varies then there isnt much to go on. especially since the game 3 patterns dont necessarily match firefist, as firefist doesnt seem to have a set pattern.
On September 24 2006 18:51 racebannon wrote: I understand you're having fun playing internet lawyer but you're really going to lengths to conveniently ignore very simple facts
On September 24 2006 19:06 DarK]N[exuS wrote: [removed quote within quote]
Irony
what facts am I ignoring? that his build is different in this game so the way he hotkeys changes?
I would even concede that him not hotkeying 0 when planning a 9 pool is understandable, he doesn't use it until late game, as 3 is his hatch as well.
But every single game, every single one has him spamming 1 3, except for this one.
Every game starts with him building 9 drones regardless of the build, over about 15 reps, this is the only one with any variation. And putting down a hatch at his nat
That includes his hotkey of 0. We are assuming he is not omniscient and couldn't know that the game would end in the first 5 minutes, so it's suspect that he doesn't hotkey 0 at all in this game. It's just weird of someone who does it every single game not to do now.
But the spam is the most telling in my opinion. I see no reason for him to deviate from his normal spam when he is going to build 9 drones and an overlord in the game. This isn't a 4 pool or something. The first minute or so of the game is exactly the same as every other, but his hotkeys are different.
Why? Of all replays, the one under the most suspicious circumstances is the one that is different from all the rest.
What would solve this for good is if we found another game where he 9 pool speedlings, I agree on that. But without that evidence I still can't see a reason to disagree with what I've said
Actually I noticed he did put a hatch down at his nat and in his main, which means that's two more hatcheries he did not hotkey like he does in every other game, which makes this even more suspect.
nony yes, but if zerg builds drones till 9/9 which is the case for 9 pool or 9 lord, their hotkeys will be the same no matter what. And that first 50 seconds or so is as sure of a fingerprint as hotkeying identification can get. When you say draco changes his hotkeys because of builds that's only after 8 pylon. And as i stated earlier, protoss and terran only have their cc/nexus and then pylon/depot to hotkey in the first minute, whereas zerg has a hatchery, overlord, and drone, whether that drone is going to be a pool or another hatch. Also lots of times zergs will hotkey the total number of drones they have to keep track of their drone count. All of that makes zerg players the easiest to identify from their initial hotkeys. And when someone has the same initial hotkeys for every game, initial meaning same hotkeys for starting overlord, the 4 drones, and hatch, i really can not see any reason why they would change it all of a sudden, especially when you're drunk because you'll be playing more on instincts and thinking less. From all of those reasons combined I can say I am convinced Kosiro did not play all three games, there are just simply too many factors. If you want the accusers to go beyond that, the most we can do is gather as many replays as we can, but i am positive they will all be the same.
removing him from the event because you 'see no reason for him to deviate' is a bit much. its suspicious, and personally i believe it was someone else playing, but i dont really think theres enough evidence to be sure and for something like this you really should pretty certain before banning him on cheating accusations. not only would it remove him from sandlot, it may have further ramifications in his korean gaming(although i kind of doubt it)
As a zerg player I can say i have never changed my initial hotkeys ever since I knew what 12 hatch was and started hotkeying units 1-4 and hatches 5-0. It's simply against instinct. Even if my finger slips which happnes a lot, you will see instead of 5 hatch, 3 overlord 1 overlord, 5 hatch, 32 overlord 1 overlord, or something similar. Anyways I believe in this case hotkey fingerprinting has valid ground to be used as conclusive evidence.
On September 24 2006 19:19 HungZerg wrote: removing him from the event because you 'see no reason for him to deviate' is a bit much. its suspicious, and personally i believe it was someone else playing, but i dont really think theres enough evidence to be sure and for something like this you really should pretty certain before banning him on cheating accusations. not only would it remove him from sandlot, it may have further ramifications in his korean gaming(although i kind of doubt it)
I don't want him removed, it's not even up to me. I just want to see where all these certified internet lawyers are getting the idea that there is any reasonable explanation behind his hotkeys changing in this one single instance and absolutely no others? Except to simply argue.
I think it was a huge mistake to lie and say it was him playing. I think he should just apologize and if Blizzard lets him stay in I think he should stay in, because now he has a reason to actually give a shit, to salvage his precious manner, and I think we should give him the chance to redeem himself.
whenever im drunk i never hotkey the same as i normally do, almost always one off... oh well. You guys must be pros to be drunk and perform the same consistently.
On September 24 2006 19:25 racebannon wrote: [removed quote within quote]
I don't want him removed, it's not even up to me. I just want to see where all these certified internet lawyers are getting the idea that there is any reasonable explanation behind his hotkeys changing in this one single instance and absolutely no others? Except to simply argue.
I think it was a huge mistake to lie and say it was him playing. I think he should just apologize and if Blizzard lets him stay in I think he should stay in, because now he has a reason to actually give a shit, to salvage his precious manner, and I think we should give him the chance to redeem himself.
uh, you're arguing just as much, just from the other side. theyre 'internet lawyers' just out to argue only because they disagree with you? i dont think there needs to be a reason to change the most insignificant part of your game. i know people who spam different ways every game (apparently firefist is an example of that, progamers do it too) the only purpose is to keep your fingers moving. the fact that kosiro does not seem to have a pattern of switching hotkeys does make it suspicious, but the game was played under unusual circumstances. the hotkeys themselves are not conclusively incriminating especially since there isnt any other evidence that is at all concrete.
Idra and Nony have put forward a lot of good points. It still seems likely that Kosiro cheated, but it's not as clear-cut as it appeared to me before. And as Idra said, the evidence might not be convincing enough to kick him out of the tournament.
Now we wait and see what Midian and romad have to say in response.
On September 24 2006 19:36 HungZerg wrote: [removed quote within quote] uh, you're arguing just as much, just from the other side. theyre 'internet lawyers' just out to argue only because they disagree with you? i dont think there needs to be a reason to change the most insignificant part of your game. i know people who spam different ways every game (apparently firefist is an example of that, progamers do it too) the only purpose is to keep your fingers moving. the fact that kosiro does not seem to have a pattern of switching hotkeys does make it suspicious, but the game was played under unusual circumstances. the hotkeys themselves are not conclusively incriminating especially since there isnt any other evidence that is at all concrete.
they are internet lawyers because rather than come up with a cohesive counter argument to his drastically different replays they choose to throw out high school law class buzz words like "burden of proof" like we're sentencing him to 5 years in e-jail for his heinous crimes.
also
He did his usual in that game, so everything shall be the same and he's innocent.When the final result of replay analysis says forfeit, he will accept it to get kicked out of the tournament.
everything shall be the same. Except you know, everything. That'll be different. But still. innocent until the defense opens up BWchart and looks at all the numbers until it stops hurting their brains and they see what everyone else sees.
On September 24 2006 19:35 Lycaeus wrote: whenever im drunk i never hotkey the same as i normally do, almost always one off... oh well. You guys must be pros to be drunk and perform the same consistently.
his hotkeys were consistent in game 1 where he was arguably more intoxicated. Thanks for your input though
On September 24 2006 19:41 racebannon wrote: [removed quote within quote]
they are internet lawyers because rather than come up with a cohesive counter argument to his drastically different replays they choose to throw out high school law class buzz words like "burden of proof" like we're sentencing him to 5 years in e-jail for his heinous crimes.
uh, have you not been reading? it is those defending kosiro who have made the real arguments while your argument is that he cant have changed irrelevant hotkeys. the fact of the matter is the burden of proof does rest on those accusing him of cheating, whether you like how theyre phrasing it or not.
everything shall be the same. Except you know, everything. That'll be different. But still. innocent until the defense opens up BWchart and looks at all the numbers until it stops hurting their brains and they see what everyone else sees.
yes, keep restating the same point without actually responding to anything anyone says
On September 24 2006 19:35 Lycaeus wrote: whenever im drunk i never hotkey the same as i normally do, almost always one off... oh well. You guys must be pros to be drunk and perform the same consistently.
his hotkeys were consistent in game 1 where he was arguably more intoxicated. Thanks for your input though
the entire point he was making was lack of consistancy, not that he couldnt produce the same hotkeys at all, but that it is more likely he wouldnt play the same every game.
I won't talk about hotkeyes, skill or apm differences. I will only mention few facts:
-Polaris[ArnC] is well known lier at korean scene. -In my team there are few good friends of Kosiro, so before my match one of them (n.die_Challrenge) was talking with him in korean on the bnet. Kosiro said that he is so drunk after Pantech proleague win that he is not even able to see correctly what he writes on bnet so he asked my team mate to phone him and Kosiro's voice was surely a voice of drunk man. (You can ask your self if someone who can't even see text on bnet is able to micro as well as in game 3). -After first game Kosiro asked me if he can move to Pantech sukso, because "his mouse was bad there". When it happened most of games were already finished and it was after midnight in Korea. I did not agree, since he had a lot of time before to prepare for sandlot match (As you see his attitude wasn't that great as Polaris said). Then suddenly he said that he has to go to the toillet. He went out from the game and came back after 20~ minutes, first logging into the game with id PantechEX_Keke and then with Kosiro[shield]. His style of talking completely changed. It wasn't the same Kosiro from the first game talking about amounts of alcohol he had drunk last night. Even after I didn't agree for his moving to sukso he lied and did it. -When he said that he wants to go to the toillet my team mate - ZeuS - told me to not do so because he will let someone else play. So I said to Challrenge to tell Kosiro that if something like that will happen he will surely get kicked out of the tourney or will even make his team disqualificated. Today you know what he choosed and again ask your self what his real atitude is. -After those 3 games I was very suspicious so I said about my feelings to captain of FiFo and tl.net. Results were enough clear to say that it wasn't Kosiro playing. After all I said it to n.Die_Challrenge who after that phoned again Kosiro. He woke up him, because Kosiro was already sleeping but it was maybe 15-20 minutes after games were finished. Kosiro admited that he didn't play those games, but Nal_keke did. In conclusion I don't really know who played, FireFist or keke, but I am 100% sure of one thing. It wasn't Kosiro playing. Maybe Kosiro was that drunk that he didn't even know who was playing for him. As I know keke is member of Sandlot too and he was playing his games this time.
That's all what I have to say in this matter. Sorry for tl.net team that things went like this. I was looking for a good competition with Kosiro, not for the investigation. Sorry too if some of my English lacks made my post hard to undurstand, I hope it's enough clear.
On September 24 2006 19:54 Draco wrote: I won't talk about hotkeyes, skill or apm differences. I will only mention few facts:
-Polaris[ArnC] is well known lier at korean scene. -In my team there are few good friends of Kosiro, so before my match one of them (n.die_Challrenge) was talking with him in korean on the bnet. Kosiro said that he is so drunk after Pantech proleague win that he is not even able to see correctly what he writes on bnet so he asked my team mate to phone him and Kosiro's voice was surely a voice of drunk man. (You can ask your self if someone who can't even see text on bnet is able to micro as well as in game 3). -After first game Kosiro asked me if he can move to Pantech sukso, because "his mouse was bad there". When it happened most of games were already finished and it was after midnight in Korea. I did not agree, since he had a lot of time before to prepare for sandlot match (As you see his attitude wasn't that great as Polaris said). Then suddenly he said that he has to go to the toillet. He went out from the game and came back after 20~ minutes, first logging into the game with id PantechEX_Keke and then with Kosiro[shield]. His style of talking completely changed. It wasn't the same Kosiro from the first game talking about amounts of alcohol he had drunk last night. Even after I didn't agree for his moving to sukso he lied and did it. -When he said that he wants to go to the toillet my team mate - ZeuS - told me to not do so because he will let someone else play. So I said to Challrenge to tell Kosiro that if something like that will happen he will surely get kicked out of the tourney or will even make his team disqualificated. Today you know what he choosed and again ask your self what his real atitude is. -After those 3 games I was very suspicious so I said about my feelings to captain of FiFo and tl.net. Results were enough clear to say that it wasn't Kosiro playing. After all I said it to n.Die_Challrenge who after that phoned again Kosiro. He woke up him, because Kosiro was already sleeping but it was maybe 15-20 minutes after games were finished. Kosiro admited that he didn't play those games, but Nal_keke did. In conclusion I don't really know who played, FireFist or keke, but I am 100% sure of one thing. It wasn't Kosiro playing. Maybe Kosiro was that drunk that he didn't even know who was playing for him. As I know keke is member of Sandlot too and he was playing his games this time.
That's all what I have to say in this matter. Sorry for tl.net team that things went like this. I was looking for a good competition with Kosiro, not for the investigation. Sorry too if some of my English lacks made my post hard to undurstand, I hope it's enough clear.
well its quite obvious he was letting someone else play.. i cant see how people here doubt that >.< you dont just suddenly change patterns you always use maybe it cant be proven 100% but is that even needed?
If this is true its a real scandal, Im not that good at replay analysis but if the games were really short and only apm-chart + a few different hotkeys from some other games is the only thing they've judged it by its a disaster to call it a cheat....
you cant judge anyone, in any judging-system there is without 100% proof.
On September 24 2006 20:04 Kaolla wrote: well its quite obvious he was letting someone else play.. i cant see how people here doubt that >.< you dont just suddenly change patterns you always use maybe it cant be proven 100% but is that even needed?
If we cannot comprehend the data delivered to us in this easily digestible chart format then you must acquit
On September 24 2006 20:08 RowdierBob wrote: I say we drown him.
If he survives, he's innocent.
but someone will say they don't understand the complexities of the human respiratory system and it will spawn 10 pages of arguing as people try to dismiss the cold dead body gracefully floating downstream
Draco might be right, but there are still not any HARD proof that he cheated, im sry but saying things like "he couldnt even see the text on bnet" is kind of bullshit. I know all of ppl who make those excuses and kid about shit like that before games just to get attention or so, and when he lost 0-1 and went back to pantech house he might just as well focused more and gotten fresh air etc, but Draco might as well be right (probably is? i dunno ;O) but to me that isnt enough ;/
And for all of you ppl who want to analyze keke's replays and more of kosiro's must realize that the 2 games were really short from what ive heard and its hard to analyze such short replays with a 100% certainty....
And as for the cold dead body, it would have to be thoroughly convinced that it is not dead, and that it couldn't possibly be feeling better at the moment.
On September 24 2006 16:54 ToT)MidiaN( wrote: Another piece of information : Both Sea.FireFist and Kosiro have been known to share IDs before. Kosiro has done it with other [Shield] members in various west clan leagues. Sea.FireFist smurfed on Sea.Jang's oG) account in ToT vs oG). People said i was wrong then too, they were wrong. The proof may not be 100% but I would say I'm about 99.936% sure that it wasn't Kosiro and about 90% that the zerg who actually played was Sea.FireFist. Bed time for me~ i got nothing more to say on this matter anyway
Jamie, you are probably pretty sure it was firefirst playing but that sidenote of info has NOTHING to do with the incident in sandlot, come on its not "illegal" to play on other ppls accounts on bnet or ladders. And even if it was you always have to look at each case individually, in all aspects...
Im probably not the best guy to talk about wether he should be banned from tournament or not since im a member of tl.net team
but imo, if there are no really hard and concrete proof, I cant imagine anyone kicking him off the entire tournament, maybe give a WO in his game vs draco.
OR, maybe they could re-play the games with kosiro 0-1 since everyone seems to be sure he played game 1 -_-
Daze please don't mention single sentences from my post, because I wrote it in "(...)" so I didn't even treat it as an argument, but just as kind of curiosity.
What else do you want to know that he's guilty? My team mate phoned him and Kosiro admitted that he wasn't playing those games. You have replays, me, my team mate who was talking with him by a phone and even Kosiro saying that it wasn't him playing. It's not enough hard proof that he cheated?
Well, I believe you Draco coz i know you are a fair guy, and if kosiro really told your teammate it wasnt him then its all settled, though I cant understand why he would all of a sudden go around claiming it wasnt him afterwards, since if he confessed to n.Die_challrenge he probably confessed to alot of other guys
Does anyone know where blizzard stand on this matter?
Blizzard has more or less left it up to the team captain to decide the outcome. But what is for sure is that kosiro is gone. We have a choice of replacing him, or continuing on with 7 players. I will make the decision tonight after I talk to some people, but I already know what I think is the right course of action.
Hmm.. Right now the situation stinks, since we don't actually have koroiso himself here defending himself. He could post in korean if he wants and someone translate, but yeah the evidence is one sided and arguably stronger.
Off topic:
What's up Draco? How's the team treating you, are you going to playing in proleague or any single leagues soon?! Gl hf.
On September 24 2006 19:41 racebannon wrote: [removed quote within quote]
they are internet lawyers because rather than come up with a cohesive counter argument to his drastically different replays they choose to throw out high school law class buzz words like "burden of proof" like we're sentencing him to 5 years in e-jail for his heinous crimes.
The people saying that have NOTHING to do with the people you're arguing with, Mr. Genius. UNfortunately I'm going ot have to agree with Idra and say that YOU'RE the one arguing for no other reason than to argue. Quit being pretentious.
On September 24 2006 20:36 DarK]N[exuS wrote: [removed quote within quote]
The people saying that have NOTHING to do with the people you're arguing with, Mr. Genius. UNfortunately I'm going ot have to agree with Idra and say that YOU'RE the one arguing for no other reason than to argue. Quit being pretentious.
I read this backwards so I would be absolutely certain it would not make sense to me, because the less i know the more right I am
I just sow the reps . Zerg from rep1 worst then a poor AI computer . Zerg from rep3 definitely a pro. No need for BWChart , Live APM or any other stuff to see that is not the same person .
Lets carry kosiro to the Maury show. Maury always gets his shit straight.
Maury: We asked you if you had firefist play for you in games 2 and 3, you said NO, the lie detector test determined that, that was a lie.
Kosiro: WTF, that test is rigged (While running backstage,crying is eyes out)
What evidence do we have that he cheated, obviously the only evidence that can be used in this situation; bwchart. And we also have 2 people that are very versed in this software. The way I look at it is that kosiro took a chance and thought that he'd probably beat Draco anyway, so why not get someone to play for you. That way you wouldn't dissapoint tl.net. How old is he btw. Everything about this is very childish.
On September 24 2006 20:20 DaZe wrote: [removed quote within quote]
Jamie, you are probably pretty sure it was firefirst playing but that sidenote of info has NOTHING to do with the incident in sandlot, come on its not "illegal" to play on other ppls accounts on bnet or ladders. And even if it was you always have to look at each case individually, in all aspects...
Im probably not the best guy to talk about wether he should be banned from tournament or not since im a member of tl.net team
but imo, if there are no really hard and concrete proof, I cant imagine anyone kicking him off the entire tournament, maybe give a WO in his game vs draco.
OR, maybe they could re-play the games with kosiro 0-1 since everyone seems to be sure he played game 1 -_-
hehe Daze you are making no sense... either he cheated or he didnt. What you say is, either if he did really cheat we should kick him... Or if he didnt cheat, we just replay the games anyway from 0-1 (which makes me think you really think he did do it too)... Of course either he should be banned or he should win 2-1... I dont see the logics in replaying games as that would be admitting he did cheat imho... And well i think the chances of someone suddenly playing alot better and suddenly having different hotkeys despite normally never using them makes the conclusion pretty simple.. Cause 1 thing could be explained by fresh air, but the other cannot... Even fresh air wont help that much if you're really drunk tho... But well >.< blabla
On September 24 2006 20:56 Kaolla wrote: [removed quote within quote]
hehe Daze you are making no sense... either he cheated or he didnt. What you say is, either if he did really cheat we should kick him... Or if he didnt cheat, we just replay the games anyway from 0-1 (which makes me think you really think he did do it too)... Of course either he should be banned or he should win 2-1... I dont see the logics in replaying games as that would be admitting he did cheat imho... And well i think the chances of someone suddenly playing alot better and suddenly having different hotkeys despite normally never using them makes the conclusion pretty simple.. Cause 1 thing could be explained by fresh air, but the other cannot... Even fresh air wont help that much if you're really drunk tho... But well >.< blabla
Well, basically, if from games 2/3 we're not completely sure who played, just re. First game both players know Kos played, and lost. So 2 games with Kos starting 0-1.
I bow to Mani's decision, though, since he is captain...? and no matter what the conclusion to this argument, if Mani says that Kos is off the team, not much anyone can do about it.
On September 24 2006 20:53 Peyong wrote: Lets carry kosiro to the Maury show. Maury always gets his shit straight.
Maury: We asked you if you had firefist play for you in games 2 and 3, you said NO, the lie detector test determined that, that was a lie.
Kosiro: WTF, that test is rigged (While running backstage,crying is eyes out)
What evidence do we have that he cheated, obviously the only evidence that can be used in this situation; bwchart. And we also have 2 people that are very versed in this software. The way I look at it is that kosiro took a chance and thought that he'd probably beat Draco anyway, so why not get someone to play for you. That way you wouldn't dissapoint tl.net. How old is he btw. Everything about this is very childish.
This is very very funny situation. I haven't talk to any of players yet, but kosiro just posted in pgr21 under polaris id. He basically said, in 2, 3rd games he made "zerglings" only not even hydras, so that he doesn't understand why people say 'hotkey difference'. According to his comment (he borrowed from polaris), he denied this strange situation. Personally i think kosiro/draco/tl.net leader/fifo leader meet together and find out the truth. And about the suspicion of nal_keke played for kosiro as draco claimed, I will ask keke in person. I'm pretty sure he won't do like this since i already explained to him how big this blizzard tourney is.
I'd say if Zeus really did phone Kosiro and find out that he wasn't playing then case closed. It just seems weird to me that he would admit it and then turn around and deny it?
안녕하세요 Hello Kosiro 라는 아이디를 쓰는 이재억 이라고 합니다. I am Lee Je Uk aka Kosiro 여기에 저에 관련된 글을 보다가, 글을 남기게 되었습니다. I saw posts regarding what happened so I decided to go ahead and write one.. 직접 아이디를 만들어서, 글을 올리려 했으나, 새로 만든 아이디는 글쓰기가 안되더군요,, 그래서 아이디를 잠시 빌렸습니다. I am using Polaris' ID because making a new ID would not let me post. 우선.. 상황부터 말씀드리자면, 대회전 갑작스레 개인적인 일이 생겨서 대회를 피시방에 가서 하게되었습니다. 컨디션도 매우 나쁜상태였구요 하지만 전 그래도 이길려구 생각많이했습니다. 일딴 컨디션이 안좋기 때문에 3판2승제 였는데 모든게임 올인으로 게임 시작하기도 전에 생각했구요. 모든겜 10분도 안됩니다.
First of all, to explain what happened, I suddenly had a personal problem so I was forced to play at a PC Cafe. I was in a bad contiion also but I wanted to win really bad. But since it was Best Out Of 3 Match I decided to go all-in in all of them - not one of them lasts more than 10 minutes. 피시방에서 1차전을 하게되었습니다. 그러다 졌구요, 셋팅상태가 좋지 않아 근처에 숙소로 자리를 옴기고자, 양해를 구하려고 그때의 제 상황을 말씀드렸구요.. 하지만 그게 제 뜻과는 다른 정보로 사람들귀에 들어간거 같아 개인적으로 많이 안타깝습니다. I played the first game at the Cafe, and I lost. I disliked the setting so I asked pardon so I could go back to my practice room...and I am disappointed people were misinformed of what really happened during that period of time.
제가 소속된 TL팀에서 이 일로 저를 제외한다 해도 저는 전혀 상관이 없구요, 다만 저는 좋은취지로 열리는 대회라, 최근에 준비중인 대회도 없고해서 많이 준비하였습니다. 참 의도와는 다르게 불미스러운 일로 번지고 말았네요 정말 죄송합니다. 상대선수 Draco 선수께도 죄송하구요, 한국에 계시니 다음에 볼수 있을것입니다. 그때 불쾌했다면 사과하면 되는것이구요,, 이 pgr 이란곳에 글을 첨 쓰는데, 몇줄 안되는 글쓰는데도 참 힘드네요 ㅜㅜ It won't matter that much to me if TL.Net excludes me from the team because of what happened, but since this tournmanet was a important/fun one and I did not have any other upcoming ones, I practiced a lot for them. I am really sorry for all the unexpected trouble I caused. I apologize to my opponent Draco for what happened, especially considering I will meet him sometime soon since he is in Korea.
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정말 대회가 성공적으로 치뤄졌으면 좋겠구, TL팀의 우승을 바랍니다. 불미스러운 일이 발생하게 되어 다시한번 사과의 뜻을 전합니다. 죄송합니다 새로운형식의 대회라 많이 기대하고 준비했는데 이젠, 어렵게 새로운팀에 들어와 소속팀에 누가 되지 않을까 많이 걱정되네요 ㅜ ㅜ I sincerely hope this tournament goes well, and I wish the best and victory for teamliquid.net I apologize again for the unexpected mess. I am sorry. It was a new and creative style of tournament so I was excited and prepared for it. It worries me that I harmed the team instead...
kosiro looks innocent to me, people who stated he is a cheat also thought a handful of replays is enough to state they know everything about a player. i'm not saying he looks %100 innocent, but anything less than %100 guilty is innocent. and it's definitely not %95 let alone %100.
not nearly enough research was done, after reading nony's points and kosiro's own words it would take dozens of replays to make any judgement here.
i see no reason to not give him the benefit of the doubt, and if people want they can search through dozens of his replays in the meantime to continue the case. as it is now, the case is extremely fuzzy. i hope people like nazgul have read this thread through and will make a reconsideration of this whole thing.
starofnc+romad+midian is the closest to a sure thing there is no matter how strong/weak their judgement is. If you believe they don't have enough credibility then there's no point in arguing the issue of smurfing since there's no 100% proof unless we get video footage of firefist playing draco with a date and time. We should not give kosiro/firefist benefit of the doubt because of draco's testimnony and this kind of thing happening before. There's really no point arguing this, if you don't believe the replays are enough proof then there's nothing anyone can say to convince you
This situation happened once in a Viet Online Starleague called GameVN, in which I (LibertyTerran) played against some n00b called DeathMask in a bo3 series. It turned out that I lost game 1 and 3 whereas he played zerg with an APM of about 145 and I won game 2 in which he played a toss with APM of 99 :/. So I wasn't convinced and brought it up a topic request for a replay analysis that there was 2 people played under the nick deathmask.
After 32070808 pages of dicussion and these cheaters didn't admit eventhough we showed them a buch of convincing proof from BWChart. Until someone actually saw those mother fuckers cheated and revealed them to us, it was actually vip_medusa play for deathmask in match 1 and 3. And those mother fuckers (vip_medusa and deathmask) then were banned permanently from any online tournament afterward.
Back to this topic, from the replays 1 and 3 of the match between draco and kosiro, I say that the person played match 1 is not the same person played match 3. I dont care who they really were, but for god's sake, ban those mother fuckers permanenlty plz.( Those who claimed that APM and hotkey pattern can be changed significantly in such a short time are just totally fucking SC-n00b, yes you are, so just accept it).
personally i think that draco faced the combined forces of kosiro/firefist/keke taking turns using the mouse while one person ran computersimulations deciding dracos next move. i mean how else could they defeat the great draco, just ask the polish fanboys they will indeed tell you that it is impossible otherwise.
On September 24 2006 18:43 NonY wrote: [removed quote within quote]
That is only one way to look at the analysis and it's biased. The initial analysis was short-sighted as I have already pointed out. One doesn't need to look any farther than the other player in the very same replays. Draco hotkeys radically differently in the two games but it's easily explanable by examining the actions in the game (1gate and fast expansion).
Draco doesn't hotkey anything for about 40 seconds. After that it's always 1 probe, 2 probe
On September 24 2006 18:43 NonY wrote: The only things unexplainable are the initial hotkeying and spamming, which incidentally are the least influential actions in the entire game.
that's why they're the most convincing. Because there is no need to change them.
On September 24 2006 18:43 NonY wrote: I believe the burden is on the accusers to explain why it is in Kosiro's strong interest to never stray from the pattern used in game 1. Of course they avoid this and only say that it's uncommon for players to do different actions even when they're insignificant.
His hotkey patterns for the first 30 seconds from game 1 are completely different from game 3. Why would you change your actions if they're insignificant. Are you saying the first 30 (roughly) seconds of a game is the time where hotkeys matter the least? That's exact opposite of what hotkey "fingerprinting" is.
On September 24 2006 18:43 NonY wrote: What it boils down to, then, is kosiro's word against the opinion that players are unlikely to change the insignificant beginning actions of a game. Seeing as how the opinion hasn't been supported by anything more than personal testimony and samples of replays so small that they're irrelevant, I'm inclined to have trust.
The sample of replays are small yes, but the testimonies are from people that have credibility like romad. The premise is that the sample of replays, although small, is enough to convince people. I have 12 replays of Kosiro, all hotkeys are the same, so im convinced personally. I'll upload the pack.
On September 24 2006 18:43 NonY wrote: That said, I don't believe that it's impossible to sufficiently support the claims of the replay analysts. I believe they made some mistakes in trying to find differences in their play in any part of the replay except for the first 30 seconds.
First 30 seconds are extreeemely easy to identify and distinct, after that it gets fuzzy for the reasons you stated. Different build orders, combination of units, game situations, etc.
On September 24 2006 18:43 NonY wrote: However I think a case can be made of that first 30 seconds if they proved that players unconditionally do nearly the exact same actions at the beginning of every game, even when the actions are completely insignificant for the remainder of the game. And yes I think that'd take a bit of work but I believe you are obligated to a bit of work before you call someone a cheat and a liar. And beside that, any work done now could continue to be used in cases beyond kosiro.
The only thing we can do is infer from as many replays as possible to set up the premise that, "all experienced starcraft players should have identical hotkeys in similar matchups excluding special circumstances". But thing is that even I agree that may not be true, but however it certainly is for i'd say 95% of the time. And i think assuming that, and draco's, uhjoo's version of what happened. I'd hope it's beyond doubt for most people that.......... kosiro[shield] did not play game 3 vs Draco.
Also nony I know you probably don't use bwchart often since you have like 67800 apm, but I checked all the replays i had of you, you always do 1 nexus, 1 probe, then 5 probe although slightly less often. As I stated earlier, that's a definite pattern, and as definite as we can fingerprint someone in starcraft with. And with kosiro being zerg it's even more certain since zerg has more stuff to hotkey in the beginning. Anyways hopefully everyone can take the time and read this, I think i've covered everything about the hotkey thing. bye
Is it chance that the 20 minutes that kosiro was gone and came back his head could be abit clearer than when he was drunk. And if it was the pc room it would make a difference in play. Like i play diff on a pc room cause the mouse keyboard angle setting and how fast it goes can make a difference. Or does being undrunk take longer?
THe fact that the person went all-in is funny in all 3 games. It means either whoever wanted to play wanted to get it over fast.
Your hotkey setup can change though. Like if the keyboard is larger you might hotkey 2 but think its 1 cause you dont look down and muscle memory just says its there. If the thing is already solved than this is useless and Midian's post makes it seem firefist did play but there isnt any really solid proof or evidence unless someone in pantech saw the thing himself. I dont know innocent till proven guilty/
just to clear things up he's maintained the fact that he did not cheat but he is sorry that such a disruption was caused (being drunk, the pause in between games, etc) that allowed such accusations to be born. probably also just generally shy in the face of all the attention. don't confuse his shy, polite apology (for the confusion) to be a confession of any sorts . he's quite clearly maintaining that he never did such a thing.
...and i still say you're all fools for thinking you need more "proof" than what's been presented here. do you need firefist to come here and say "yeah i did it"?
obviously the whole hotkey thing isn't enough. i mean, of course there's SOME strange chance that kosiro decided to spam different hotkeys during the beginning of the game. Let's not forget Draco, a player none of us will likely surpass, saying he was suspicious. Midian, also a very good player, also believes it was two different players. i put my faith in these expert witnesses moreso than you people buying a simple cover-up story.
12 replays of kosiro except for the game3 vs draco. Every matchup, every map, over the course of a year, he starts his games with 1, 0, then 3, now look at game 3 vs draco.
Should've posted this earlier instead of just saying o i saw the reps and blah blah
I just talked to Blizzard and Pantech. He cheated. End of story. The details are confidential at this point, but they will probably be leaked in the future. Lets move on for next week.
lol the most of you are talking like you dont wanna keep him. FOR FUCKS SAKE HES GOOD~ KEEP HIM ASAP. sorry for the shouting but really, try to keep the good man.
Sorry that I couldn't follow the development, had connection problems from last night until now. I was somehow expecting the result from the beginning, still I had to translate. Respect for Mani, Romad and Midian, and GL to TL team for next games.
shit that he cheated he should get banned from tlnet
I don't think that he is a bad guy for doing that tho, maybe if I was drunk I'd do the same? I mean he did wrong, but it's not a thing that people should throw stones at him, like if he was a terrible very bad person.
The punishment is just for learning purpposes, next time he just says he is fucked up, explains situation and says "I'm really sorry, I really practiced on the maps so I could show my skills, but I just couldn't refuse the invitation for drinking from a superior".
On September 25 2006 02:07 Manifesto7 wrote: I just talked to Blizzard and Pantech. He cheated. End of story. The details are confidential at this point, but they will probably be leaked in the future. Lets move on for next week.
end of story guys? once blizzard says it, whether or not he really did cheat or not, it's official. their tournament, their rules.
On September 25 2006 06:06 Raidern wrote: shit that he cheated he should get banned from tlnet
I don't think that he is a bad guy for doing that tho, maybe if I was drunk I'd do the same? I mean he did wrong, but it's not a thing that people should throw stones at him, like if he was a terrible very bad person.
The punishment is just for learning purpposes, next time he just says he is fucked up, explains situation and says "I'm really sorry, I really practiced on the maps so I could show my skills, but I just couldn't refuse the invitation for drinking from a superior".
in korea if an superior invites to drink you almost can't refuse
On September 24 2006 18:21 zulu_nation8 wrote: ok i compared the hotkeys of about 10 firefist replays under different smurfs, etc. He is the most inconsistent hotkeyer i have ever seen. There's really not a stable, identifiable pattern. I guess the only thing you can say is that he sometimes uses 2 or 3 or 2/3 for hatches at start, then hotkeys 1 a lot, then units, regroup for hatches with 5-7, then back to units. The only thing I'm sure about is that for the 2-3 replays of him having 380 apm and using 123456 as hatches at the start, that's definitely not him, i don't know who it is. Besides that everything else is a maybe. If there were more candidates I could compare but guessing firefist is probably the only zerg on pantech that has 250-300 apm and those apm %, it most likely was him.
that's probably shinhwa[name], dream.t)orion also used sea.firefist in some replays that were uploaded (against sea[shield] and ever)t(piano)
hmm yea shinhwa does the 1,2,3,4,5,6 thing. That would mean then that in the 2005 2nd fOu team league semi-finals sea vs s.sir, shinhwa[name] played for sea.firefist, -.-.....
in fact shinhwa played every game for firefist in that tourney except for dudring name vs sea. SCANDAL
ahahahahaha while I am sorta mad at Kosiro being our first choice and alll.. I can't help but laugh at Sea clan and how unbelieveably ballsily cute they are. Quite some Kawaii Bollocks they gots tharrrgghhh matey
MidiaN! I have a new deep respect for you. This broodwar forensics is crazy stuff. I never knew the replay analyzer could be used like that... While reading the posts, I believed in Kosiro. Then when Mani posted, I obviously (read forced to) sided with his opinions.
MidiaN slammed it down with damning evidence.
Ergo, the moral I've learned is not to get MidiaN or Mani's comments on my ass.
On September 25 2006 01:37 superjoppe wrote: I'd suck and have low apm if I played in an Internet Café too. And if I was in bad shape, I'd do all-in strategies when I came back home too.
I believe Kosiro and I think its funny that someone else just claimed it wasnt him without no proof.
In the pgr21.com, kosiro still denying the cheating insidence.
However he is shocked because "fighterforum" journalists called 'pantech' house and kept asking about this situation lol, and wanted to interview him about it. ;p
I guess our fifo leader acted very fast ;p. Although he is still denying anyways so no one knows yet -0-. From his recent comment, he basically said he didn't played like normal and tried '121212' hotkey habit because he was 'tired' and wanted to finish game fast.
Anyway i thought plto wanted orion in tl.net ;p although lionking is fucken sexy zerg.
On September 25 2006 09:52 Nal_CrayOn wrote: I guess our fifo leader acted very fast ;p. Although he is still denying anyways so no one knows yet -0-. From his recent comment, he basically said he didn't played like normal and tried '121212' hotkey habit because he was 'tired' and wanted to finish game fast.
Just like IdrA was using hotkey 5 for CC in that one game because he suddenly thought his TvP was lacking cause of not enough SCV:s, damn.
On September 25 2006 09:52 Nal_CrayOn wrote: In the pgr21.com, kosiro still denying the cheating insidence.
However he is shocked because "fighterforum" journalists called 'pantech' house and kept asking about this situation lol, and wanted to interview him about it. ;p
I guess our fifo leader acted very fast ;p. Although he is still denying anyways so no one knows yet -0-. From his recent comment, he basically said he didn't played like normal and tried '121212' hotkey habit because he was 'tired' and wanted to finish game fast.
Anyway i thought plto wanted orion in tl.net ;p although lionking is fucken sexy zerg.
Hm, I wanted Orion in sandlot long ago but I heard he couldn't play ;/
insane- - was just mentioning his point heh. It's so obvious anyways but oh well. Let's just say, he realized how huge non-korean community power and this sandlot league. He is prob very freaked out from all those phone call from sc journalist's interview request to pantech.
I like the non-BWchart investigation. A lot of it is circumstantial but it seems enough of it has piled up to be conclusive. Also there is, as Manifesto mentioned, unreleased details that we cannot judge by but will remain private. In that case, I have faith in his discretion. Regarding the BWchart and hotkey fingerprint, I am still skeptical. This certainty that people have about identifying players based on the actions done in the first 60 seconds would absolutely be false regarding investigations into my own personal replays. And since Midian/zulu only speak in generalaties, apparently from the trends that they have observed in their own experiences as BWchart investigators, I'm worried.
When taking a scientific approach such as BWchart analysis as the cornerstone method of destroying someone's character, and yet that scientific approach is not backed by the standards of true science, I believe people are making grave mistakes. In all honesty, I've kept the notion in my head that kosiro has been guilty ever since I first read the news. However I believe it's important that he not be persecuted for reasons which aren't convincing, even if further investigation would show those reasons to be convincing. The further investigation must be done. In any case, I think it's turned out ok. I'm simply curious about the continual denial that kosiro is making, and of course I'm curious about the secret details that have solidified the decisions of the leaders involved.
On September 24 2006 16:06 penitent exile wrote: [removed quote within quote]
100% surety is theoretically necessary in American criminal courts, no?
As I quote from page 3, since that's as far as I've read...
Civil courts work on a balance of probabilities. And it's not like this has anything at all to do with a criminal offense, so it's only necessary to show that it is 'more likely' that he cheated than didn't cheat. If this was a criminal matter, then yes, he would have to be convicted "without a shadow of a doubt".
That's why O.J. got busted down in civil court but got off in criminal court.
If you're looking for some kind of legal basis on which to make your decision, then you have to use the civil criteria, as this is a matter between private citizens.
On September 25 2006 06:28 zulu_nation8 wrote: hmm yea shinhwa does the 1,2,3,4,5,6 thing. That would mean then that in the 2005 2nd fOu team league semi-finals sea vs s.sir, shinhwa[name] played for sea.firefist, -.-.....
in fact shinhwa played every game for firefist in that tourney except for dudring name vs sea. SCANDAL
lol great! i wonder if the majority of the korean community is aware that the players switch nicks whenever they want to. otherwise someone should post it there.
On September 25 2006 12:13 Arg.Iceman wrote: [removed quote within quote]
Why? That's more than enough proof, we all know that one person doesn't use more than one nick
the 1st comment says that he played game1 in a netcafé then he moved to the Pantech HQ to play the rest ones. If they played on hamachi i think it couldn't be stange.
Even though the switching nicks thing is bad in TOURNAMENTS and sanctioned events and so forth, everyone oughta know that Koreans switch and share nicks like ALL THE TIME in clans =_=;
My memory is hazy at the moment but didnt one of the ID's have a space in the name anyway? I mean its not exactly hard to change nicks when playing on hamachi/lan... The ID thing is far from proof. Maybe he wanted to get PUMPED and rep his set-0 -
On September 25 2006 12:57 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: these dipshits are the only reason bnet isn't full of abusers and hackers but ok have it your way
well hacking is different, there's no judgment call. just a careful look at the data can reveal a hacker. as far as abusing, and i guess you just mean account sharing, which is just one type of abuse, there are probably many cases much more clear cut than this. it'd just be nice if they made their investigations a bit more scientific. if they sampled very large directories of replays (ie thousands) to back up their general statements, it'd be much nicer. so when they say "people dont change their spamming habits in the first 30 seconds", they can actually attach a probable figure like "90% of people never change habits". it'd also be nice if the analysts' success rates were actually well-documented as opposed to all their friends just saying "they're never wrong."
and also, to escape your narrow view, i'd imagine that there are many reasons why bnet isnt full of hackers and abusers. im sure self-imposed morality stops a lot of people (honoring the trust of friendships, team leaders, event organizers, etc). seeking fair games and therefore genuine competition stops a great many as well. then there's a small group of people who would cheat and abuse but dont have access to the means of doing so. and finally, it's always difficult to say how many people are cheating and abusing right now. maybe bwchart has been relatively effective and maybe not.
EPT
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Mani
