EPTswarm is balanced
consume is not
Dark Swarm - too strong in zvt? - Page 5
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Ready2[ESC]
Hungary1436 Posts
swarm is balanced consume is not | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28584 Posts
and it requires high skill to use, so I don't really mind it. but if the zerg and the terran are evenly matched before swarm comes into play, then terran is gonna get owned by a zerg who has really good control. and the fact that you can shut down an expansion with 1 lurker and 1 defiler regardless of how many tanks he has *is* kinda fucked up. its not always imbalanced, and it's a necessity to balance the matchup, but sometimes terran just can't do anything about it. (unlike storm in pvz, which is oh so much weaker if the zerg has great micro. and it's the offensive use of swarm that is too strong, you can't run any further into your own base. for defense or any kind of battles in the middle, it's not any better than it should be. ) | ||
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Alpha
France1495 Posts
 . Anyway terran can still use bats so it depends on the skills of both players  | ||
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hasuwar
7365 Posts
SIKE | ||
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NeverTheEndlessWiz
Singapore827 Posts
the only problem is that defiler and swarm is immobile but this can be solved marginally by overlord transport irradiate does have "range" to avoid scourges so at any rate its still pretty much irradiate > all zerg units | ||
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InFiNitY[pG]
Germany3468 Posts
a) zerg needs defilers to be able to come back when he's losing. One of my main arguments was/is that defilers enable a zerg to come back and win games that he simply should not have won anymore. has anyone ever seen a toss come back from a 50 to 120 supply with 2 arbiters? or a terran with 2 science vessels? surely not, but i've seen plenty of games where zerg managed to do this with 2 or 3 defilers. I myself won at least 10 games that i would never ever have won with switching to ultralisks or guardians. But noone here will doubt that both are amazing units even if they are hive tech. But the points is that they are worth their cost, while one defiler is worth a lot more than his actual cost. b) Terran has to kill zerg before he gets enough defilers. When did terran become stronger than zerg in midgame? Early game has always been hard for zerg, but lets say both manage to go to midgame evenly, is terran stronger than zerg then? No. to quote Grot "terran users should try to keep the zerg from being even with them". this implies that, if both players play equally well until the zerg gets defilers, he usually wins, which is exactly my point. Is there another matchup where one player has to keep the opponent from being even with him? What i find peculiar too is that all the top players (trek, eri, tomson, day) see the problems with dark swarm while many others don't, which brings me to the conclusion that some of you just don't have lots of experience in either effectively using dark swarm or playing vs zerg that's good at using dark swarm | ||
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InFiNitY[pG]
Germany3468 Posts
On November 29 2004 20:24 Excalibur_Z wrote: It seems to me that Defilers operate at a relatively equal cost to Science Vessels. The cost of a Science Vessel is 100m, 225g. The cost of a Defiler is 50m, 150g. A Defiler will most likely consume at least one ling to immediately get enough energy for Swarm, at an effective cost of 25m. Then when you count the two Scourge (at 25m, 75g), required to destroy the Vessel, the total cost comparison becomes 100m, 225g to 100m, 225g. So on the surface, they are directly balanced against each other. However, when you factor in other units, control, the sizes of attack groups, mobility, number of expansions controlled, and macro ability, things become more complicated. As a rule, players that do not have a large number of Science Vessels are practically asking for the Zerg player to get Swarm. You need good eyes and a fast reaction time to properly Irradiate Defilers (obviously) before Swarm gets too out-of-hand. Of course, you know all this already because you are a high-level player, but still consider the alternatives of a frontal attack: You completely ignore the most important factor here. Terran does not have the minerals/vespine that zerg has. Back in the day terrans always played with mass barracks +1fac tanks +1port vessels, which was good vs standard zerg style, which was either a )muta harass to lurk contain to guard or ultra b) lurk contain to muta harass to guard or ultra. However, the zerg players eventually learned to adjust, going for mass hydra/lurk which beat the shit of the terrans until they started going for 2fac tanks with only a few vessels. But now we've reached a point where the zerg can simply choose his strat according to the terran's. Few vessels ask for swarm, few tanks ask for mass hydra/lurk (or ultra/ling/scourge) A vessels might be as strong as a defiler, but you cannot compare their cost because as someone (i think it was eri) already mentioned the defiler is an incredibly cheap, strong spellcaster for a race that used to rely on simply outnumbering the opponents forces Anyway, you may have already tried most or all of these things, but if not then please attempt all avenues before claiming imbalance =) Day already explained that. Defilers *can* be countered to a certain extent, but even he can only name 4 games where that actually happened, with all of them featuring two of the top 5 terrans in the world. So on uber-pro level defilers might be balanced, but everywhere below to me they are still too good | ||
Smurg
Australia3818 Posts
If you've got a sci vessel in the area, you should if not already have it, be researching Irradiate. Remember defilers are pretty slow and can't attack. So I'd say vult spamming + kamikaze on defilers. It's 75 minerals vs 50 mins and 150 gas. Could be a useful way to kill defilers, whilst dodging any other outward attacks of say lings/lisks or whatever. Remember if they have defilers, the game should be at a point where resources aren't scarce, but aren't in abundance, so vult kamikaze sweeps on defilers would be useful. Don't forget to lay a few wayward mines to slow down any other attacks or make them progress more slowly by having to take them out. Tanks > Defilers in so many ways as well.  If they try something like this. Kill all their overlords with Valks or something. ^_^  | ||
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xCx
Poland123 Posts
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tranCe[RaGe]
United States420 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28584 Posts
that just isnt possible with anything else. of course it wouldnt have been possible if the terran had played well either, but considering he got a 150 vs 50 supply advantage vs yellow he's obviously not bad surprise carriers or arbiters can be just as gamechanging as defilers. but they cost far, far more. in certain scenarios swarm is necessary. but in some, I really do feel it is too powerful. in particular the ability to shut down an expansion at *minimal* cost. (and terrans are very often limited to only one expansion, as defending an exp requires a considerable amount of supply, unlike zerg and toss. ), thus that starves them off completely. | ||
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AirMouse
Canada106 Posts
On November 29 2004 12:23 InFiNitY[pG] wrote: you can go hydra/guardian, or mass hydra/lurk, or ultra/ling just like people did before defilers became so popular ( and many people still do play without defilers successfully ) Hydra Guardian sux because a terran can use irradiate two vessels, and float them to 8 guards , and kill them all  Edit : ^ That only works in certain circumstances lol T_T but, imho guardians are quite immobile, and it's quite rare to win a z vs t w/ hydra guards unless you had already had it won, or he made way too many tanks. There is a huge imbalance without dark swarm. Zergs NEED IT, or else it's so hard to compete with 2 fact tank, or even 3 fact tank(TheCruise style) Yeah, it's quite possible to win without a defiler mound, but very hard to do so vs very gosu korean terrans. Drops are a must without defilers. | ||
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baelrog
Austria705 Posts
On November 29 2004 11:23 InFiNitY[pG] wrote: i do think so. example: 1 darkswarm + 2 lurks can make a way completely impassable(?) for a whole terran army while you can easily counter his main with all you got. example 2: 1 darkswarm + 2 lurks can completely shut off an oponnents expansion. not only that, but thanks to consume you can pretty much cast swarm over and over again. The only way effective way to kill those is obviously irradiate. but its pretty much impossible, thx to the ai, to keep vessels alive vs zerglings + scourges. how to counter a terran leaving his tanks with a mass of tanks and rines??? lurk/hyd will die so as lurk/ling. and unless u can afford really manny upgrades ultras+cracks u have no chance because guardiens die if they are not used over a cliff. and swarm is also available just with hive tech. so whats your point man? without swarm zerg couldn not win a single z vs t on high levels because the old hyd/lurk still you are still using in z vs t doesnt work vs the good terrs anymore. just because your terra gets slaid at wgt by the gosu zerg swarm is not imba. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28584 Posts
On November 30 2004 05:25 AirMouse wrote: Hydra Guardian sux because a terran can use irradiate two vessels, and float them to 8 guards , and kill them all There is a huge imbalance without dark swarm. Zergs NEED IT, or else it's so hard to compete with 2 fact tank, or even 3 fact tank(TheCruise style) Yeah, it's quite possible to win without a defiler mound, but very hard to do so vs very gosu korean terrans. Drops are a must without defilers. yeah, irradiating two vessels and flying them over his guardians works great against the hydra/guardian combination | ||
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AirMouse
Canada106 Posts
On November 29 2004 14:40 88)WhyYouKickMyDog wrote: there are some pro zergs who almost always get defiler tech and spend a lot of their practice time working on their defiler usage (such as Dream.t)theSiva), but they havent gone too far in the leagues. . Almost every zerg is using defilers in korean leagues, at one point, the announcers said they didn't believe it was possible to win z vs t without hive tech. So I don't know what you are talking about. Look at GoRush, July, etc. | ||
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Relifed
Dominican Republic47 Posts
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TheGoliath
United States682 Posts
On November 30 2004 05:30 AirMouse wrote: Almost every zerg is using defilers in korean leagues, at one point, the announcers said they didn't believe it was possible to win z vs t without hive tech. So I don't know what you are talking about. Look at GoRush, July, etc. yellow has crazy assed fucking defiler usage, watch his game vs xellos on bifrost in the olympus final, yellow loses, but during the middle of the game yellow tears xellos apart with plagues, and then crashed xellos's base with 12 lurkers and swarm, truely amazing. as for defilers themselves, zerg needs swarm against terran late game, period. also, in terms of army battles vs army battles late game its still usually an even fight, because terran can micro tanks an irradiate well as well as keeping marines out of harm, the problem with swarm vs terran is two things: 1. zerg can attack bases far far far too well with swarm, because terran cannot outmicro the swarm as he needs to be able to. 2. zerg can shut down expansions with one or two lurkers and swarm. when finding a solution to this problem, basically you need to be able to keep defilers strong in battle but weaker for the above purposes. my best idea is to make swarm last less time, so that way it lasts long enough with battles, but not so long that they can camp mineral lines for years at a time. one question i have, eri says that consume is imbalanced, how so? EDIT: ok, i have one more thought, about consume, because swarm is so good for base attacking, swarm energy should be higher so zerg has to consume more, making swarms harder to create, this might help balance out dark swarm in this situation. EDIT AGAIN: i read the the thread again and noticed that eri posted the above idea, if he likes it then it has to be good | ||
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jtan
Sweden5891 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28584 Posts
at least I don't think I did. consume is part of why defilers are so great, but I think it's necessary. although paying 50 minerals for a swarm is well, extreemely good. | ||
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poor newb
United States1879 Posts
just mass sci vessals and irradiate everything, get some mm to protect aginst scourage | ||
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