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ok, this is how dark swarm operates: (in my humble but extraordinarily correct opinion)
First off, the terran needs to be a very strong terran for dark swarm to be balanced. If you suck, you will get raped. Likewise, people who can't micro M&M vs lurkers will get raped.
assuming the zerg has been going zergling/lurker and gets a relatively fast swarm, it can be used early in two situations
1) direct defense: if the terran is right at the entrance to your base, you can swarm some lurkers to hold them for a while. i've seen H_Paul_WII do this, where he expands to the other two mains on LT, and simply gets 3-4 defilers w/ some lurkers and the terran cannot break either of them w/ a direct attack. It allows paul to power a while more
2) direct offense: if the terran has NOT decided to leave his base, you can push strait up to his expansion with dark swarm. an excellent example of this is the last game of iloveoov vs July in the Gilette starleague. july contains iloveoov early, and then techs VERY quickly to a hive w/ defilers (note that he skips a spire and overlord speed). consequently, he can push strait into oov's expo w/ lurkers and zerglings, doing some serious ass damage
3) if you are going ultra/ling swarm can really fuck a terran up even harder! :D
However, there are things to note about the defiler which, in my opinion, do make it balanced. the most significant thing is that the defiler is a hive tech unit. meaning the terran has to focus on getting a strong advantage in the middle game, depending upon what the opponent is doing. if the zerg is hydra/lurker (a very costly mid-game army) the chances of defilers coming immediately are very low, and if they defilers DO come from that, then the zerg simply does not have enough units in combination w/ the defilers. OR, if the zerg is lurker/ling, then the terran has to be very aggressive early on, making sure not to let the zerg expand freely before he gets defilers. Note the game between ArtOfTerran and July. July manages to get defilers while going lurker/zergling, but ArtOfTerran is able to control very well vs the defilers and irradiate them.
Also note that situations #1 and #2 results in the terran being too passive... no dropships or midgame M&M harassment/attack gives zerg a huge advantage anyways, whether it be defilers or mass expanding. #3 is just you being completely fucked because you let them get mass ultra/ling w/ defilers :D
Problem w/ dark swarm is that control is the counter to it. (that's why direct offense in a main is so effective, they can't move the buildings ! ^_^) You must indirectly counter dark swarm by killing off expansions to make sure the zerg doesn't have too many lurker/ling in combination w/ the dark swarm.
Games i recommend watching to see terrans countering swarm really well -->
July vs oov on IntotheDarkness
July vs ArtOfTerran on Requiem
Siva vs Sync on Nostalgia (even tho siva wins, sync still does an extraordinary job and the game is REALLY REALLY close)
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I fond it is funny, besiede the obvious fact that
zerg-"it is balance"
terr: "it is unbalance"
that most toss : "it is balance"
I guess most toss want terr to feel what they feel vs Z in the late game.
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irradiate will solve all of your zerg problems
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i think its balanced enough, i aint really ever lost games vs defiler that i wasn't losing to begin with :O
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well i can only speak from my perspective, and I
a) never ever played someone that could "effectively" counter my defilers, with the most successful attempts being mass scan+ irradiate the defilers while avoiding to get hit by scourges before.
b) lost a lot of games to defilers that i would've probably won had the zerg gone for ultralisks or guards
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swarm is pretty to watch, hard to use.
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On November 29 2004 17:43 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:
well i can only speak from my perspective, and I
a) never ever played someone that could "effectively" counter my defilers, with the most successful attempts being mass scan+ irradiate the defilers while avoiding to get hit by scourges before.
I thought that you are playing vs lots of good players all the time, and never?
somehow boxer/nada + some other korean pros are actually doing pretty well
b) lost a lot of games to defilers that i would've probably won had the zerg gone for ultralisks or guards
I think thats why they went defilers...
But dont say you never loose to ultralisks or guards.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
defilers and more specifically dark swarm is COMPLETELY balanced because:
A. they are the hardest z unit to use, with some of the lowest hp, high cost, no armor and being a hive tech they are a expensive commoditity. Also, using dark swarm effectively while moving units into position to utilize the spell is again, difficult micro intensive action.
B. As infinity said, z's used to hydra/guard before defilers became popular, well medics kind of changed that. Dark Swarm is an absolute essential spell for zerg because in late game vs a terran user it is the only way to crack a dug in terran. Guards and hydra dont work because of mass sci/tanks and m&m. That doesnt mean 100% but it does mean its near impossible.
C. Dark Swarm isnt invincible, if you put tons lurkers under the swarm when they are unburrowed they will get hit, also lings/ultras take splash damage under there. ALSO mines/firebats do just fine under the swarm, its not like terran users dont have options..
D. Swarm is the only way in late late game vs protoss that a zerg can make a protoss cry by killing 100000 cannons guarding a expansion with some cracks and a defiler. Again, guards do this as well, but lets be realistic in late late game zvp guardians wont get the job done (shouldnt) as well as cracks/swarm.
E. Its not a problem. T users have topped the charts in pro leagues for the duration of the leagues! Also, defilers are not popular and they are very balanced imo. IF a z user goes fast defiler he is being risky.. chances are he skipped spire/doesnt have drop. This leaves them open to tanks on cliff, drop micro wraith etc.. also in late game defilers equal the palying field, and again i think their high intesive micro demanding characteristics level out their powerful capabilities.
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I think defilers ARE too strong TvZ but I think the problem runs deeper.
Isn`t the whole Zerg Hive tech the real problem here ? I mean, we are talking about 3 very, very strong options (Guards, Ultras/Cracks, Defilers) that you must be 100% ready for as Terran to just *survive*. And we are not even talking about those options being used in conjonction with each other.
Even if you've kept up with the Zerg through mid-game, I find you are still behind when late game comes due to the sheer power of Hive tech as a whole.
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On November 29 2004 18:03 Dl33ter wrote:
Isn`t the whole Zerg Hive tech the real problem here ?
No.
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I think zvt late game is very micro intensive on pro level. Terran needs to stim/micro M&M, siege tanks, and use vessels. A zerg need to do 5 things to get a good attack with lurker/ling/defilers/scourge.
1: Clone scourges on vessels.
2: Swarm/consume properly.
3: Phlank the terran units.
4: Move lurkers in first, then burrow them.
5: Targeting the M&M with the lurkers.
In addition to this both races have to use their cash. For terran this is harder as he has to make m/f/m from rax, tanks from facs, and vessels, while zerg has afford to wait with this if he has ultra cavern. Then he can use all his cash on say 12 ultras. Thus zerg has the adventage late game if both players have the same income. Its no secret that a zerg always opts for hive right from the very start, and i havent seen a lategame zvt lately not involving defilers where the zerg has won. The last two years the swarm has been something the best zergs went really early. Julyzerg, Chojja "almost" always go the lurk/ling combo after some mutas(not always they go muts first). If the zerg goes lurk/ling he needs adrenal obviously, and he needs swarm to get the best out of his lurkers. The hydra/lurker combo will not work on pro level because its not cost efficent enough, unless the zerg has the whole map as mentioned earlier.
I think the game Gorush vs Nada on Luna in KT-KTF in the middle of a city not too long ago displayed a great attack from Gorush where he did a final attack on Nada with all these units. It IS microintensive and the zerg need ultra cavern to help him use his money after the attack.
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well at high level the swarm is too cost efficient and gives the zerg too much from the prize...i dont know what control is talking about armor and low hp and stuff...id be happy to trade a well placed swarm for a defiler.
at extreme pro level i suppose swarm is zergs only chance of not getting mega outmicroed by all gosu terrans m&m micro...zerg cant fully use their massive macro then i guess so they rather go fewer exp more units not to die against nada, boxer, oov etc ... in that case its totally balanced...terran almost always win the big tournaments
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On November 29 2004 13:05 Kaotu wrote:
Its not imbalanced, it just adds a factor to TvZ, so that terran can't just secure the win just b/c zerg hasn't been able to expo 5 times.
good point, i'm a T user, but if let zerg expo 5 times i deserve to lose :O
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On November 29 2004 12:00 PIKI wrote:
Dark Swarm is ok.
Consume is imbalanced :/
ya i agree , u can make some pretty trails with them defilers
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United States12235 Posts
On November 29 2004 11:23 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:
i do think so.
example: 1 darkswarm + 2 lurks can make a way completely impassable(?) for a whole terran army while you can easily counter his main with all you got.
example 2: 1 darkswarm + 2 lurks can completely shut off an oponnents expansion. not only that, but thanks to consume you can pretty much cast swarm over and over again. The only way effective way to kill those is obviously irradiate. but its pretty much impossible, thx to the ai, to keep vessels alive vs zerglings + scourges.
Well Infinity, you are correct in your examples, but here's why you're wrong about Swarm being imbalanced.
It seems to me that Defilers operate at a relatively equal cost to Science Vessels. The cost of a Science Vessel is 100m, 225g. The cost of a Defiler is 50m, 150g. A Defiler will most likely consume at least one ling to immediately get enough energy for Swarm, at an effective cost of 25m. Then when you count the two Scourge (at 25m, 75g), required to destroy the Vessel, the total cost comparison becomes 100m, 225g to 100m, 225g. So on the surface, they are directly balanced against each other.
However, when you factor in other units, control, the sizes of attack groups, mobility, number of expansions controlled, and macro ability, things become more complicated. As a rule, players that do not have a large number of Science Vessels are practically asking for the Zerg player to get Swarm. You need good eyes and a fast reaction time to properly Irradiate Defilers (obviously) before Swarm gets too out-of-hand. Of course, you know all this already because you are a high-level player, but still consider the alternatives of a frontal attack:
1) Scan the zones where the Zerg masses up, and Irradiate Defilers (or Scourge, if you can get enough of them) before he can attack you, forcing him to stay on the defensive.
2) Use Dropships to hit expansions (especially gas expansions) and split his forces, then regain map control.
3) Switch up to Vults with Mines maybe haha. This is not entirely a joke either - you could say it operates on the theory that Swarm is neutralized by Dweb. Because all of the Zerg forces will crowd inside the Swarm, using Mines may not be such a bad idea.
Anyway, you may have already tried most or all of these things, but if not then please attempt all avenues before claiming imbalance =) Heck maybe Nuke Swarm hahaha =]
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One thing I have noted about terrans defending against swarm:
Most terrans fail to build enough defensive depth against swarm. If a zerg is using swarm/lurk/ling, it is infinately more difficult for him to destroy 3 bunks and tanks placed to provide defensive depth than 3 bunks and tanks next to each other. If the zerg tries picking the outlying bunker off, I might throw a single tank out there too just to make it prohibitively expensive for him to do so.
Against swarm, I try to place a bunker further out than normal. The sooner the zerg has to start laying down swarms, the better. A couple firebats in the first bunk can be very effective at cutting down the number of lings before they can tear your base apart, too. Additionally, the zerg cannot usually get good scouting past the outer layer of your defence, which means he must place the swarms on the fly while controlling lings and lurks simulataneously. This is far more taxing on his micro. You thus have the opportunity to either abandon your exp to its chances while you micro elsewhere, or an extra couple seconds to clone irradiate on the attack, or whatever.
Keep in mind that I'm talking more about midlevel games, but I see problems with positioning of defence at all levels.
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You shoudln't be on the defensive anyway, you should be moving out so he has to use them defensively
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Every 10 zvt filer may be used once.. if that.
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On November 29 2004 21:01 exalted wrote:
You shoudln't be on the defensive anyway, you should be moving out so he has to use them defensively
You will eventually have to defend somewhere. You can't possibly spend the whole game running around killing exps - eventually he will counter. The terran holding or losing his min only exp on LT or other non-choke defended exp is the pivotal position in many tvz games.
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i think alot of terrans don't like it just because its a noticeably strong spell haha. It's kinda like storm in PvZ... there comes a point where storm is not only critical, but insanely powerfully good.
I will admit, if swarm didn't exist, TvZ would be SOO FUCKING EASY for terran sometimes haha 
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EPT
