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InFiNitY[pG]
Germany3468 Posts
example: 1 darkswarm + 2 lurks can make a way completely impassable(?) for a whole terran army while you can easily counter his main with all you got. example 2: 1 darkswarm + 2 lurks can completely shut off an oponnents expansion. not only that, but thanks to consume you can pretty much cast swarm over and over again. The only way effective way to kill those is obviously irradiate. but its pretty much impossible, thx to the ai, to keep vessels alive vs zerglings + scourges. | ||
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Response
United States1936 Posts
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Response
United States1936 Posts
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
Seriously : U have to play with a different style like having more sci and firebats i think or at least get some mine it's always good but near the scv minerals... Oh well fuk it die plz scv ! | ||
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Kobayashi
Portugal1970 Posts
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seeyoulater
970 Posts
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TheGreenBeret
United Kingdom548 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On November 29 2004 11:23 InFiNitY[pG] wrote: i do think so. example: 1 darkswarm + 2 lurks can make a way completely impassable(?) for a whole terran army while you can easily counter his main with all you got. example 2: 1 darkswarm + 2 lurks can completely shut off an oponnents expansion. not only that, but thanks to consume you can pretty much cast swarm over and over again. The only way effective way to kill those is obviously irradiate. but its pretty much impossible, thx to the ai, to keep vessels alive vs zerglings + scourges. Matrix a firebat^_^ Irradiate the lurkers. That's where you need the sick apm of progamers (nada irradiating is o_O) | ||
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TheGreenBeret
United Kingdom548 Posts
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FriEndLy86
Poland104 Posts
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simple1004
1 Post
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PIKI
Poland143 Posts
Consume is imbalanced :/ | ||
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Response
United States1936 Posts
edit: except obviously....totally the opposite:-P | ||
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tomson
Poland641 Posts
What I find peculiar is that Zergs tend to use it to actually get back to the game, rather than to increase their advantage if they have one. I think that's one very common mistake in ZvT. I also don't know why Terrans don't make a whole lot of Firebats (meaning 10+) when they do encounter Zerglings + Swarms (no Lurkers). You shouldn't get carried away with the number of Vessels though. 8 is absolutely enough, you don't gain from having more. But then again, you know, every race has its moment in the game. Early game for Zerg is rock, paper, scissors which was proved in the recent BoxeR vs YellOw series. | ||
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Tnargav
Poland174 Posts
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Legionnaire
Australia4514 Posts
Why cry about one imbalance, there are quite a few. There is a strategy forum for things like this. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On November 29 2004 12:06 tomson wrote: Yeah, impassable is a word. What I find peculiar is that Zergs tend to use it to actually get back to the game, rather than to increase their advantage if they have one. I think that's one very common mistake in ZvT. I also don't know why Terrans don't make a whole lot of Firebats (meaning 10+) when they do encounter Zerglings + Swarms (no Lurkers). You shouldn't get carried away with the number of Vessels though. 8 is absolutely enough, you don't gain from having more. But then again, you know, every race has its moment in the game. Early game for Zerg is rock, paper, scissors which was proved in the recent BoxeR vs YellOw series. Making loads of firebats is good vs swarm regardless isn't it :O I mean if you matrix them they can deal with decent amounts of lurkers and hydras wont hit them/lings die horribly. And ehm tanks hitting them to kill lurkers I guess could work? | ||
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yOOysi
Poland726 Posts
10 tanks + M&M with ups 2:2 is able to crush a huge number of zerg units. | ||
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InFiNitY[pG]
Germany3468 Posts
On November 29 2004 12:06 tomson wrote: What I find peculiar is that Zergs tend to use it to actually get back to the game, rather than to increase their advantage if they have one. I think that's one very common mistake in ZvT. Yea i noticed that too, especially at my own zvt, i tried to improve it though, but i think the main factor is that dark swarm is indeed very micro intensive, thus the perfect moment to use it when you have less units to control. when i have 150 supply hydra/lurk i find it amazingly hard to get a few defilers and micro my dark swarm effectively | ||
Twisted
Netherlands13554 Posts
But yes, bats are good vs lurkers. | ||
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InFiNitY[pG]
Germany3468 Posts
On November 29 2004 12:21 yOOysi wrote: Without swarm zerg's haven't any chances against Terran in late game. 10 tanks + M&M with ups 2:2 is able to crush a huge number of zerg units. you can go hydra/guardian, or mass hydra/lurk, or ultra/ling just like people did before defilers became so popular ( and many people still do play without defilers successfully ) | ||
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suxN
Finland1167 Posts
nuke > any beasts in the swarm GGNORE!!!! | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28584 Posts
I've seen (and made) some ridiculous comebacks due to swarm though, where the terran didn't really make any big mistakes. it's like, I sorta think it's necessary to be that good, because zerg needs it, but in games that were seemlingly even until zerg gets defilers it does break the game | ||
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LetMeBeWithYou
Canada4254 Posts
On November 29 2004 12:14 Legionnaire wrote: Firebats and medics/irradiate, you should watch Artofterran vs Julyzerg on requiem (pro league match) you will see what i mean. Its a bloody awesome game. Why cry about one imbalance, there are quite a few. There is a strategy forum for things like this. hey leg do you know where you can dl this vod?? | ||
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LetMeBeWithYou
Canada4254 Posts
On November 29 2004 12:37 Liquid`Drone wrote: I think its overpowered, yes. but zerg very often uses it to get back into the game, and it does require a high skill level to use properly. I've seen (and made) some ridiculous comebacks due to swarm though, where the terran didn't really make any big mistakes. it's like, I sorta think it's necessary to be that good, because zerg needs it, but in games that were seemlingly even until zerg gets defilers it does break the game ultras are already SO SO strong =[ | ||
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cav
Pitcairn514 Posts
On November 29 2004 11:23 InFiNitY[pG] wrote: i do think so. example: 1 darkswarm + 2 lurks can make a way completely impassable(?) for a whole terran army while you can easily counter his main with all you got. example 2: 1 darkswarm + 2 lurks can completely shut off an oponnents expansion. not only that, but thanks to consume you can pretty much cast swarm over and over again. The only way effective way to kill those is obviously irradiate. but its pretty much impossible, thx to the ai, to keep vessels alive vs zerglings + scourges. what did you mean by that last part? | ||
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Naib
Hungary4843 Posts
It's not imba, most zerg users now only to macro, and zerg still can get along with that - not to mention pro level of course. It requires skill & art | ||
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Kaotu
United States986 Posts
Its not imbalanced, it just adds a factor to TvZ, so that terran can't just secure the win just b/c zerg hasn't been able to expo 5 times. | ||
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mindspike
Canada1902 Posts
its strong but its very late tech | ||
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xCx
Poland123 Posts
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theburningred
France92 Posts
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pooper-scooper
United States3108 Posts
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Sadist
United States7205 Posts
the gayest thing is right when you are attacking 2 defilers hatch and then they consume swarm and you cant do anything --; | ||
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InFiNitY[pG]
Germany3468 Posts
On November 29 2004 12:50 cav wrote: what did you mean by that last part? Marines target the units that attack them, i.e. the zerglings, thus the scourges can fly over their heads and kill the vessels without being attacked | ||
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ahk-gosu
Korea (South)2099 Posts
i think the natural turtling style of terrans make this hard. many units and their buildings such as bunkers and tanks make them defensive. when swarm is used near terran bases it really rox them but when its used on in the field it is pretty easy to run away. i bet many zergs are thinking that sci vessels are too strong seeing as how it can kill nearly every single zerg unit except devourers and ultralisks in 1 cast. plus it does splash damage. use bats, use tanks efficiently, target scourge with marines, LEAD WITH SCIS. find their defilers and irradiate them before htey reach the field. these units obviously cost an enormous amount of gas and if you can take the zerg expos and irradiate his defilers, he wont have too much gas to work with. gl. | ||
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m4nk1
Poland11 Posts
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yeehaw
San Marino888 Posts
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ItchReliever
2489 Posts
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FreeMarine
Canada76 Posts
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88)WhyYouKickMyDog
United States608 Posts
But obviously right now terran are dominating WCG, and OSL and all the other korean leagues and if some zergs could start using defilers more effectively when in a balanced situation (not coming from behind), it could possibly get zergs back in the game. | ||
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FreeMarine
Canada76 Posts
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Ezo
Poland42 Posts
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
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FreeZEternal
Korea (South)3396 Posts
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mmm.beer
Canada412 Posts
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Moggle
Canada327 Posts
Massive damage to a Mutalisk group, 4 Vessels taking out 12 guardians, free Lurker etc. Just how I see it, not really complaining  | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28584 Posts
maybe make it cost 125 mana, that way defilers would need energy upgrade to throw two swarms without consuming yeah that would actually be really sweet. eri is a genius! | ||
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TreK
Sweden2089 Posts
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TreK
Sweden2089 Posts
The only counter ive seen a terran have is 1. kamikaze on the defilers hoping he only has 2-3 to gain more time and maybe counter attack or 2. not kamikaze and letting the zerg swarm up 200 swarms all over the exp/base making all marines useless in battle so u can fight with only tanks and vessle yay...maybe stimpack your marines trying to kill a zerg expansion or something. For swarms energy price and defilers cost its totally imbalanced , tho its hive tech so i guess its not that bad...just try kill the zerg before any hive units is basically the game idea of tvz hehe. althought its a way too cost efficient unit for a race like zerg who mostly dominate the resorces, blizzard wont change anything, we cant change anything so it doesnt matter...lets just find counterthings like 10 matrixed bats!!! thats a great idea!! | ||
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PIKI
Poland143 Posts
Balance Changes 1.12 -------------------- ZERG: Defiler: - Incrased energy cost of Consume to 50 - Consume gives 100 energy :D | ||
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
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PIKI
Poland143 Posts
On November 29 2004 16:17 Mindcrime wrote: Nerf swarm but make irrad only do 150 dmg and cost 100 mana gogo~ You are zerg player who never used defiler? Right? | ||
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GroT
Belgium3003 Posts
yes dark swarm is incredibly useful, so stop trying to get 20 3/3 ultras every game and stop complaining about imbalance terran users should try to keep the zerg from being even with them and getting defilers/scourge/units at the same time | ||
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Soun
Poland373 Posts
On November 29 2004 11:56 FriEndLy86 wrote: on maps like nostalgia where u dont have much gas as a terran for science vessel +++ irradiate i think dark swarm is imbalanced. Let's count: Terran 100 fac 150 starport 50 control tower 150 science facility 200 irradiate 225 science vessel. = 875 Zerg 100 lair 100 queen's nest 150 hive 100 defiler mound 150 defiler 50 den 200 lurker aspect 125*2 lurkers. = 1100. Seems it's still something inbalanced, even more if we keep in mind that 1 sci vessel > 2 lurks + 1 defiler, but that's hard counter. | ||
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Pob
880 Posts
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
Maybe only adjustable thing about defilers is to lower the consumed energy? | ||
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8882
2718 Posts
if there are 2+ lurkers the splash will kill it but terran has one awful spell called irradiate T_T | ||
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Violence
Afghanistan24 Posts
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Soun
Poland373 Posts
On November 29 2004 16:36 Violence wrote: hi Popping up your post count? I see the future... It's very black for you | ||
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On November 29 2004 16:20 PIKI wrote: You are zerg player who never used defiler? Right? If ds gets nerfed, irrad needs nerfed. Did I imply that I don't ever use defilers?  | ||
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Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
First off, the terran needs to be a very strong terran for dark swarm to be balanced. If you suck, you will get raped. Likewise, people who can't micro M&M vs lurkers will get raped. assuming the zerg has been going zergling/lurker and gets a relatively fast swarm, it can be used early in two situations 1) direct defense: if the terran is right at the entrance to your base, you can swarm some lurkers to hold them for a while. i've seen H_Paul_WII do this, where he expands to the other two mains on LT, and simply gets 3-4 defilers w/ some lurkers and the terran cannot break either of them w/ a direct attack. It allows paul to power a while more 2) direct offense: if the terran has NOT decided to leave his base, you can push strait up to his expansion with dark swarm. an excellent example of this is the last game of iloveoov vs July in the Gilette starleague. july contains iloveoov early, and then techs VERY quickly to a hive w/ defilers (note that he skips a spire and overlord speed). consequently, he can push strait into oov's expo w/ lurkers and zerglings, doing some serious ass damage 3) if you are going ultra/ling swarm can really fuck a terran up even harder! :D However, there are things to note about the defiler which, in my opinion, do make it balanced. the most significant thing is that the defiler is a hive tech unit. meaning the terran has to focus on getting a strong advantage in the middle game, depending upon what the opponent is doing. if the zerg is hydra/lurker (a very costly mid-game army) the chances of defilers coming immediately are very low, and if they defilers DO come from that, then the zerg simply does not have enough units in combination w/ the defilers. OR, if the zerg is lurker/ling, then the terran has to be very aggressive early on, making sure not to let the zerg expand freely before he gets defilers. Note the game between ArtOfTerran and July. July manages to get defilers while going lurker/zergling, but ArtOfTerran is able to control very well vs the defilers and irradiate them. Also note that situations #1 and #2 results in the terran being too passive... no dropships or midgame M&M harassment/attack gives zerg a huge advantage anyways, whether it be defilers or mass expanding. #3 is just you being completely fucked because you let them get mass ultra/ling w/ defilers :D Problem w/ dark swarm is that control is the counter to it. (that's why direct offense in a main is so effective, they can't move the buildings ! ^_^) You must indirectly counter dark swarm by killing off expansions to make sure the zerg doesn't have too many lurker/ling in combination w/ the dark swarm. Games i recommend watching to see terrans countering swarm really well --> July vs oov on IntotheDarkness July vs ArtOfTerran on Requiem Siva vs Sync on Nostalgia (even tho siva wins, sync still does an extraordinary job and the game is REALLY REALLY close) | ||
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Geval
788 Posts
zerg-"it is balance" terr: "it is unbalance" that most toss : "it is balance" I guess most toss want terr to feel what they feel vs Z in the late game. | ||
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dork_of_death!!
United States374 Posts
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DooMeR
United States1519 Posts
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InFiNitY[pG]
Germany3468 Posts
a) never ever played someone that could "effectively" counter my defilers, with the most successful attempts being mass scan+ irradiate the defilers while avoiding to get hit by scourges before. b) lost a lot of games to defilers that i would've probably won had the zerg gone for ultralisks or guards | ||
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evanthebouncy
China491 Posts
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Geval
788 Posts
On November 29 2004 17:43 InFiNitY[pG] wrote: well i can only speak from my perspective, and I a) never ever played someone that could "effectively" counter my defilers, with the most successful attempts being mass scan+ irradiate the defilers while avoiding to get hit by scourges before. I thought that you are playing vs lots of good players all the time, and never? somehow boxer/nada + some other korean pros are actually doing pretty well b) lost a lot of games to defilers that i would've probably won had the zerg gone for ultralisks or guards I think thats why they went defilers... But dont say you never loose to ultralisks or guards. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
A. they are the hardest z unit to use, with some of the lowest hp, high cost, no armor and being a hive tech they are a expensive commoditity. Also, using dark swarm effectively while moving units into position to utilize the spell is again, difficult micro intensive action. B. As infinity said, z's used to hydra/guard before defilers became popular, well medics kind of changed that. Dark Swarm is an absolute essential spell for zerg because in late game vs a terran user it is the only way to crack a dug in terran. Guards and hydra dont work because of mass sci/tanks and m&m. That doesnt mean 100% but it does mean its near impossible. C. Dark Swarm isnt invincible, if you put tons lurkers under the swarm when they are unburrowed they will get hit, also lings/ultras take splash damage under there. ALSO mines/firebats do just fine under the swarm, its not like terran users dont have options.. D. Swarm is the only way in late late game vs protoss that a zerg can make a protoss cry by killing 100000 cannons guarding a expansion with some cracks and a defiler. Again, guards do this as well, but lets be realistic in late late game zvp guardians wont get the job done (shouldnt) as well as cracks/swarm. E. Its not a problem. T users have topped the charts in pro leagues for the duration of the leagues! Also, defilers are not popular and they are very balanced imo. IF a z user goes fast defiler he is being risky.. chances are he skipped spire/doesnt have drop. This leaves them open to tanks on cliff, drop micro wraith etc.. also in late game defilers equal the palying field, and again i think their high intesive micro demanding characteristics level out their powerful capabilities. | ||
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Dl33ter
Canada197 Posts
Isn`t the whole Zerg Hive tech the real problem here ? I mean, we are talking about 3 very, very strong options (Guards, Ultras/Cracks, Defilers) that you must be 100% ready for as Terran to just *survive*. And we are not even talking about those options being used in conjonction with each other. Even if you've kept up with the Zerg through mid-game, I find you are still behind when late game comes due to the sheer power of Hive tech as a whole. | ||
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A3iL3r0n
United States2196 Posts
On November 29 2004 18:03 Dl33ter wrote: Isn`t the whole Zerg Hive tech the real problem here ? No. | ||
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Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
1: Clone scourges on vessels. 2: Swarm/consume properly. 3: Phlank the terran units. 4: Move lurkers in first, then burrow them. 5: Targeting the M&M with the lurkers. In addition to this both races have to use their cash. For terran this is harder as he has to make m/f/m from rax, tanks from facs, and vessels, while zerg has afford to wait with this if he has ultra cavern. Then he can use all his cash on say 12 ultras. Thus zerg has the adventage late game if both players have the same income. Its no secret that a zerg always opts for hive right from the very start, and i havent seen a lategame zvt lately not involving defilers where the zerg has won. The last two years the swarm has been something the best zergs went really early. Julyzerg, Chojja "almost" always go the lurk/ling combo after some mutas(not always they go muts first). If the zerg goes lurk/ling he needs adrenal obviously, and he needs swarm to get the best out of his lurkers. The hydra/lurker combo will not work on pro level because its not cost efficent enough, unless the zerg has the whole map as mentioned earlier. I think the game Gorush vs Nada on Luna in KT-KTF in the middle of a city not too long ago displayed a great attack from Gorush where he did a final attack on Nada with all these units. It IS microintensive and the zerg need ultra cavern to help him use his money after the attack. | ||
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TreK
Sweden2089 Posts
at extreme pro level i suppose swarm is zergs only chance of not getting mega outmicroed by all gosu terrans m&m micro...zerg cant fully use their massive macro then i guess so they rather go fewer exp more units not to die against nada, boxer, oov etc ... in that case its totally balanced...terran almost always win the big tournaments | ||
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HiFi
United States518 Posts
On November 29 2004 13:05 Kaotu wrote: Its not imbalanced, it just adds a factor to TvZ, so that terran can't just secure the win just b/c zerg hasn't been able to expo 5 times. good point, i'm a T user, but if let zerg expo 5 times i deserve to lose :O | ||
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previousemperor
Canada271 Posts
On November 29 2004 12:00 PIKI wrote: Dark Swarm is ok. Consume is imbalanced :/ ya i agree , u can make some pretty trails with them defilers | ||
Excalibur_Z
United States12235 Posts
On November 29 2004 11:23 InFiNitY[pG] wrote: i do think so. example: 1 darkswarm + 2 lurks can make a way completely impassable(?) for a whole terran army while you can easily counter his main with all you got. example 2: 1 darkswarm + 2 lurks can completely shut off an oponnents expansion. not only that, but thanks to consume you can pretty much cast swarm over and over again. The only way effective way to kill those is obviously irradiate. but its pretty much impossible, thx to the ai, to keep vessels alive vs zerglings + scourges. Well Infinity, you are correct in your examples, but here's why you're wrong about Swarm being imbalanced. It seems to me that Defilers operate at a relatively equal cost to Science Vessels. The cost of a Science Vessel is 100m, 225g. The cost of a Defiler is 50m, 150g. A Defiler will most likely consume at least one ling to immediately get enough energy for Swarm, at an effective cost of 25m. Then when you count the two Scourge (at 25m, 75g), required to destroy the Vessel, the total cost comparison becomes 100m, 225g to 100m, 225g. So on the surface, they are directly balanced against each other. However, when you factor in other units, control, the sizes of attack groups, mobility, number of expansions controlled, and macro ability, things become more complicated. As a rule, players that do not have a large number of Science Vessels are practically asking for the Zerg player to get Swarm. You need good eyes and a fast reaction time to properly Irradiate Defilers (obviously) before Swarm gets too out-of-hand. Of course, you know all this already because you are a high-level player, but still consider the alternatives of a frontal attack: 1) Scan the zones where the Zerg masses up, and Irradiate Defilers (or Scourge, if you can get enough of them) before he can attack you, forcing him to stay on the defensive. 2) Use Dropships to hit expansions (especially gas expansions) and split his forces, then regain map control. 3) Switch up to Vults with Mines maybe haha. This is not entirely a joke either - you could say it operates on the theory that Swarm is neutralized by Dweb. Because all of the Zerg forces will crowd inside the Swarm, using Mines may not be such a bad idea. Anyway, you may have already tried most or all of these things, but if not then please attempt all avenues before claiming imbalance =) Heck maybe Nuke Swarm hahaha =] | ||
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MrIncognito
United States217 Posts
Most terrans fail to build enough defensive depth against swarm. If a zerg is using swarm/lurk/ling, it is infinately more difficult for him to destroy 3 bunks and tanks placed to provide defensive depth than 3 bunks and tanks next to each other. If the zerg tries picking the outlying bunker off, I might throw a single tank out there too just to make it prohibitively expensive for him to do so. Against swarm, I try to place a bunker further out than normal. The sooner the zerg has to start laying down swarms, the better. A couple firebats in the first bunk can be very effective at cutting down the number of lings before they can tear your base apart, too. Additionally, the zerg cannot usually get good scouting past the outer layer of your defence, which means he must place the swarms on the fly while controlling lings and lurks simulataneously. This is far more taxing on his micro. You thus have the opportunity to either abandon your exp to its chances while you micro elsewhere, or an extra couple seconds to clone irradiate on the attack, or whatever. Keep in mind that I'm talking more about midlevel games, but I see problems with positioning of defence at all levels. | ||
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exalted
United States3612 Posts
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FreeMarine
Canada76 Posts
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MrIncognito
United States217 Posts
On November 29 2004 21:01 exalted wrote: You shoudln't be on the defensive anyway, you should be moving out so he has to use them defensively You will eventually have to defend somewhere. You can't possibly spend the whole game running around killing exps - eventually he will counter. The terran holding or losing his min only exp on LT or other non-choke defended exp is the pivotal position in many tvz games. | ||
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Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
I will admit, if swarm didn't exist, TvZ would be SOO FUCKING EASY for terran sometimes haha  | ||
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Ready2[ESC]
Hungary1436 Posts
swarm is balanced consume is not | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28584 Posts
and it requires high skill to use, so I don't really mind it. but if the zerg and the terran are evenly matched before swarm comes into play, then terran is gonna get owned by a zerg who has really good control. and the fact that you can shut down an expansion with 1 lurker and 1 defiler regardless of how many tanks he has *is* kinda fucked up. its not always imbalanced, and it's a necessity to balance the matchup, but sometimes terran just can't do anything about it. (unlike storm in pvz, which is oh so much weaker if the zerg has great micro. and it's the offensive use of swarm that is too strong, you can't run any further into your own base. for defense or any kind of battles in the middle, it's not any better than it should be. ) | ||
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Alpha
France1495 Posts
. Anyway terran can still use bats so it depends on the skills of both players  | ||
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hasuwar
7365 Posts
SIKE | ||
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NeverTheEndlessWiz
Singapore827 Posts
the only problem is that defiler and swarm is immobile but this can be solved marginally by overlord transport irradiate does have "range" to avoid scourges so at any rate its still pretty much irradiate > all zerg units | ||
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InFiNitY[pG]
Germany3468 Posts
a) zerg needs defilers to be able to come back when he's losing. One of my main arguments was/is that defilers enable a zerg to come back and win games that he simply should not have won anymore. has anyone ever seen a toss come back from a 50 to 120 supply with 2 arbiters? or a terran with 2 science vessels? surely not, but i've seen plenty of games where zerg managed to do this with 2 or 3 defilers. I myself won at least 10 games that i would never ever have won with switching to ultralisks or guardians. But noone here will doubt that both are amazing units even if they are hive tech. But the points is that they are worth their cost, while one defiler is worth a lot more than his actual cost. b) Terran has to kill zerg before he gets enough defilers. When did terran become stronger than zerg in midgame? Early game has always been hard for zerg, but lets say both manage to go to midgame evenly, is terran stronger than zerg then? No. to quote Grot "terran users should try to keep the zerg from being even with them". this implies that, if both players play equally well until the zerg gets defilers, he usually wins, which is exactly my point. Is there another matchup where one player has to keep the opponent from being even with him? What i find peculiar too is that all the top players (trek, eri, tomson, day) see the problems with dark swarm while many others don't, which brings me to the conclusion that some of you just don't have lots of experience in either effectively using dark swarm or playing vs zerg that's good at using dark swarm | ||
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InFiNitY[pG]
Germany3468 Posts
On November 29 2004 20:24 Excalibur_Z wrote: It seems to me that Defilers operate at a relatively equal cost to Science Vessels. The cost of a Science Vessel is 100m, 225g. The cost of a Defiler is 50m, 150g. A Defiler will most likely consume at least one ling to immediately get enough energy for Swarm, at an effective cost of 25m. Then when you count the two Scourge (at 25m, 75g), required to destroy the Vessel, the total cost comparison becomes 100m, 225g to 100m, 225g. So on the surface, they are directly balanced against each other. However, when you factor in other units, control, the sizes of attack groups, mobility, number of expansions controlled, and macro ability, things become more complicated. As a rule, players that do not have a large number of Science Vessels are practically asking for the Zerg player to get Swarm. You need good eyes and a fast reaction time to properly Irradiate Defilers (obviously) before Swarm gets too out-of-hand. Of course, you know all this already because you are a high-level player, but still consider the alternatives of a frontal attack: You completely ignore the most important factor here. Terran does not have the minerals/vespine that zerg has. Back in the day terrans always played with mass barracks +1fac tanks +1port vessels, which was good vs standard zerg style, which was either a )muta harass to lurk contain to guard or ultra b) lurk contain to muta harass to guard or ultra. However, the zerg players eventually learned to adjust, going for mass hydra/lurk which beat the shit of the terrans until they started going for 2fac tanks with only a few vessels. But now we've reached a point where the zerg can simply choose his strat according to the terran's. Few vessels ask for swarm, few tanks ask for mass hydra/lurk (or ultra/ling/scourge) A vessels might be as strong as a defiler, but you cannot compare their cost because as someone (i think it was eri) already mentioned the defiler is an incredibly cheap, strong spellcaster for a race that used to rely on simply outnumbering the opponents forces Anyway, you may have already tried most or all of these things, but if not then please attempt all avenues before claiming imbalance =) Day already explained that. Defilers *can* be countered to a certain extent, but even he can only name 4 games where that actually happened, with all of them featuring two of the top 5 terrans in the world. So on uber-pro level defilers might be balanced, but everywhere below to me they are still too good | ||
Smurg
Australia3818 Posts
If you've got a sci vessel in the area, you should if not already have it, be researching Irradiate. Remember defilers are pretty slow and can't attack. So I'd say vult spamming + kamikaze on defilers. It's 75 minerals vs 50 mins and 150 gas. Could be a useful way to kill defilers, whilst dodging any other outward attacks of say lings/lisks or whatever. Remember if they have defilers, the game should be at a point where resources aren't scarce, but aren't in abundance, so vult kamikaze sweeps on defilers would be useful. Don't forget to lay a few wayward mines to slow down any other attacks or make them progress more slowly by having to take them out. Tanks > Defilers in so many ways as well.  If they try something like this. Kill all their overlords with Valks or something. ^_^  | ||
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xCx
Poland123 Posts
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tranCe[RaGe]
United States420 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28584 Posts
that just isnt possible with anything else. of course it wouldnt have been possible if the terran had played well either, but considering he got a 150 vs 50 supply advantage vs yellow he's obviously not bad surprise carriers or arbiters can be just as gamechanging as defilers. but they cost far, far more. in certain scenarios swarm is necessary. but in some, I really do feel it is too powerful. in particular the ability to shut down an expansion at *minimal* cost. (and terrans are very often limited to only one expansion, as defending an exp requires a considerable amount of supply, unlike zerg and toss. ), thus that starves them off completely. | ||
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AirMouse
Canada106 Posts
On November 29 2004 12:23 InFiNitY[pG] wrote: you can go hydra/guardian, or mass hydra/lurk, or ultra/ling just like people did before defilers became so popular ( and many people still do play without defilers successfully ) Hydra Guardian sux because a terran can use irradiate two vessels, and float them to 8 guards , and kill them all  Edit : ^ That only works in certain circumstances lol T_T but, imho guardians are quite immobile, and it's quite rare to win a z vs t w/ hydra guards unless you had already had it won, or he made way too many tanks. There is a huge imbalance without dark swarm. Zergs NEED IT, or else it's so hard to compete with 2 fact tank, or even 3 fact tank(TheCruise style) Yeah, it's quite possible to win without a defiler mound, but very hard to do so vs very gosu korean terrans. Drops are a must without defilers. | ||
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baelrog
Austria705 Posts
On November 29 2004 11:23 InFiNitY[pG] wrote: i do think so. example: 1 darkswarm + 2 lurks can make a way completely impassable(?) for a whole terran army while you can easily counter his main with all you got. example 2: 1 darkswarm + 2 lurks can completely shut off an oponnents expansion. not only that, but thanks to consume you can pretty much cast swarm over and over again. The only way effective way to kill those is obviously irradiate. but its pretty much impossible, thx to the ai, to keep vessels alive vs zerglings + scourges. how to counter a terran leaving his tanks with a mass of tanks and rines??? lurk/hyd will die so as lurk/ling. and unless u can afford really manny upgrades ultras+cracks u have no chance because guardiens die if they are not used over a cliff. and swarm is also available just with hive tech. so whats your point man? without swarm zerg couldn not win a single z vs t on high levels because the old hyd/lurk still you are still using in z vs t doesnt work vs the good terrs anymore. just because your terra gets slaid at wgt by the gosu zerg swarm is not imba. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28584 Posts
On November 30 2004 05:25 AirMouse wrote: Hydra Guardian sux because a terran can use irradiate two vessels, and float them to 8 guards , and kill them all There is a huge imbalance without dark swarm. Zergs NEED IT, or else it's so hard to compete with 2 fact tank, or even 3 fact tank(TheCruise style) Yeah, it's quite possible to win without a defiler mound, but very hard to do so vs very gosu korean terrans. Drops are a must without defilers. yeah, irradiating two vessels and flying them over his guardians works great against the hydra/guardian combination | ||
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AirMouse
Canada106 Posts
On November 29 2004 14:40 88)WhyYouKickMyDog wrote: there are some pro zergs who almost always get defiler tech and spend a lot of their practice time working on their defiler usage (such as Dream.t)theSiva), but they havent gone too far in the leagues. . Almost every zerg is using defilers in korean leagues, at one point, the announcers said they didn't believe it was possible to win z vs t without hive tech. So I don't know what you are talking about. Look at GoRush, July, etc. | ||
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Relifed
Dominican Republic47 Posts
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TheGoliath
United States682 Posts
On November 30 2004 05:30 AirMouse wrote: Almost every zerg is using defilers in korean leagues, at one point, the announcers said they didn't believe it was possible to win z vs t without hive tech. So I don't know what you are talking about. Look at GoRush, July, etc. yellow has crazy assed fucking defiler usage, watch his game vs xellos on bifrost in the olympus final, yellow loses, but during the middle of the game yellow tears xellos apart with plagues, and then crashed xellos's base with 12 lurkers and swarm, truely amazing. as for defilers themselves, zerg needs swarm against terran late game, period. also, in terms of army battles vs army battles late game its still usually an even fight, because terran can micro tanks an irradiate well as well as keeping marines out of harm, the problem with swarm vs terran is two things: 1. zerg can attack bases far far far too well with swarm, because terran cannot outmicro the swarm as he needs to be able to. 2. zerg can shut down expansions with one or two lurkers and swarm. when finding a solution to this problem, basically you need to be able to keep defilers strong in battle but weaker for the above purposes. my best idea is to make swarm last less time, so that way it lasts long enough with battles, but not so long that they can camp mineral lines for years at a time. one question i have, eri says that consume is imbalanced, how so? EDIT: ok, i have one more thought, about consume, because swarm is so good for base attacking, swarm energy should be higher so zerg has to consume more, making swarms harder to create, this might help balance out dark swarm in this situation. EDIT AGAIN: i read the the thread again and noticed that eri posted the above idea, if he likes it then it has to be good | ||
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jtan
Sweden5891 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28584 Posts
at least I don't think I did. consume is part of why defilers are so great, but I think it's necessary. although paying 50 minerals for a swarm is well, extreemely good. | ||
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poor newb
United States1879 Posts
just mass sci vessals and irradiate everything, get some mm to protect aginst scourage | ||
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InFiNitY[pG]
Germany3468 Posts
On November 30 2004 05:27 baelrog wrote: how to counter a terran leaving his tanks with a mass of tanks and rines??? lurk/hyd will die so as lurk/ling. and unless u can afford really manny upgrades ultras+cracks u have no chance because guardiens die if they are not used over a cliff. and swarm is also available just with hive tech. so whats your point man? without swarm zerg couldn not win a single z vs t on high levels because the old hyd/lurk still you are still using in z vs t doesnt work vs the good terrs anymore. just because your terra gets slaid at wgt by the gosu zerg swarm is not imba. My point man, is that i'm not gonna comment on every newbie that talks bullshit here. How about you learn this game instead of flaming me just because you don't know what you're talking about | ||
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InFiNitY[pG]
Germany3468 Posts
On November 30 2004 06:06 poor newb wrote: sci vessals > zerg just mass sci vessals and irradiate everything, get some mm to protect aginst scourage you obviously don't get it. if you keep your marines and vessels together he can dark swarm and kill the marines before you irradiatet "everything" + he can scourge your vessels at the same time. If you try to fly over to his defilers to irradiate them you cannot protect them with m&m. I just played This game which demonstrates the power of dark swarm pretty well http://www.wgtour.com/match.php?action=dl&datab=broodwar&id=486060&url=upload/ladder/broodwar/5941in9.rep | ||
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lingwu
Japan321 Posts
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Yarertz
Djibouti1891 Posts
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bio.dante
Czech Republic290 Posts
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Beast_Bg
Bulgaria1623 Posts
On November 29 2004 11:52 Kobayashi wrote: generally speaking defilers are hugely underused, people prefer to spend there money on ultras and not have to micro anything. Plague is also amazing (not so much zvt) Well,actually in ZvT it can be quite disasterous plaguing the m&m ,taking all the energy of the medics and leaving the marines quite defenseless and you can combine it with parasite(which cannot be restored now due to lack of energy) and ensnare to make things horrible. | ||
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Beast_Bg
Bulgaria1623 Posts
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ahk-gosu
Korea (South)2099 Posts
On November 29 2004 16:17 Mindcrime wrote: Nerf swarm but make irrad only do 150 dmg and cost 100 mana gogo~ wtf are you joking? this means that guardians dont die in 1 irradiate. and mana upping to 100??? are you retarded orsomething?? even storm cost 75 and its strong as heck. | ||
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ahk-gosu
Korea (South)2099 Posts
dark archon spell cost ultralisk armor vs zlots :/ cracklings vs zlots to sum up the 2 above zlot attack x 2 :/ scout ground damage for its cost :/ scout upgrades tell me some else i missed | ||
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ky[Z]
China1730 Posts
it is amazing how many topics about how zerg being too powerful among us newbie....while the top pros whing about zerg being too weak. | ||
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lastprobeALIVE
United States973 Posts
On November 29 2004 12:14 Legionnaire wrote: Firebats and medics/irradiate, you should watch Artofterran vs Julyzerg on requiem (pro league match) you will see what i mean. Its a bloody awesome game. Why cry about one imbalance, there are quite a few. There is a strategy forum for things like this. That was a very great game. ArtOfTerran handled that very well. | ||
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MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
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Nal_Testie
Canada1257 Posts
At the high level end of gaming swarm is far from imbalanced. As it takes a lot to do and slows the zerg down enormously. Look at most zergs when they get defilers, their money will tend to skyrocket. Also, simply teching to swarm unless you have gained a large advantage leaves the zerg open to die in a variety of ways, or if they are secure, they will most definitely lose any expansions should the terran be playing how he should. Swarm should never be a, "surprise! I've got swarm!" Unless one has fucked up. All I will say is that if you are finding swarm to be imbalanced it is not because of the game. It is because of your own mistakes earlier on that put you in a precarious position to let swarm become a nuisance. In which case, you deserve to be punished for your insolence and swarmed by the swarm. | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
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poor newb
United States1879 Posts
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On November 30 2004 10:23 ahk-gosu wrote: wtf are you joking? this means that guardians dont die in 1 irradiate. and mana upping to 100??? are you retarded orsomething?? even storm cost 75 and its strong as heck. Way to miss my point. My point was that nerfing swarm would be equivolent to crippling irrad. -_-; | ||
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oPtioNaLk
Korea (South)564 Posts
On November 29 2004 12:00 PIKI wrote: Dark Swarm is ok. Consume is imbalanced :/ Yea gotta agree. But then again irradiate > zerg xcept scourge. | ||
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mightypenny_ph
Philippines259 Posts
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LastWish
2013 Posts
How come T>Z with all these imba swarms around lol. Actually if there were no swarms, i doubt zerg would have any chance to beat 200/200 Terran Army. If u want to make swarm 125 why not but don't forget to make iradiate 100 too. | ||
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_GniL_
Canada66 Posts
On November 30 2004 18:47 LastWish wrote: I get sick and tired of these terran cryings - How come T>Z with all these imba swarms around lol. Actually if there were no swarms, i doubt zerg would have any chance to beat 200/200 Terran Army. If u want to make swarm 125 why not but don't forget to make iradiate 100 too. Exactly Zerg has no chance of beating a 200/200 terran army.And with all the bullshit Terran can do like just bunker up you need dark swarm.I don't hear people bitching when Oov is sitting just massing and rolling out when Zerg can't do shit. | ||
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A3iL3r0n
United States2196 Posts
On November 30 2004 06:38 InFiNitY[pG] wrote: you obviously don't get it. if you keep your marines and vessels together he can dark swarm and kill the marines before you irradiatet "everything" + he can scourge your vessels at the same time. If you try to fly over to his defilers to irradiate them you cannot protect them with m&m. I just played This game which demonstrates the power of dark swarm pretty well http://www.wgtour.com/match.php?action=dl&datab=broodwar&id=486060&url=upload/ladder/broodwar/5941in9.rep As I watching the rep I thought shit, Infinity is getting raped, but then I realized that the Terran could never leave his base with his main army because if the Zerg ever got the Terran ramp it would be gg. I still don't think swarm is over powered though, because its a game-ender for the Zerg and you should lose if Zerg has that many units + swarm. For the rep, interesting build, it looked a bit rough in that rep, but I think it would be an interesting strat to have in a repetoire to play once in a while. | ||
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_GniL_
Canada66 Posts
On November 30 2004 18:47 LastWish wrote: I get sick and tired of these terran cryings - How come T>Z with all these imba swarms around lol. Actually if there were no swarms, i doubt zerg would have any chance to beat 200/200 Terran Army. If u want to make swarm 125 why not but don't forget to make iradiate 100 too. Exactly Zerg has no chance of beating a 200/200 terran army.And with all the bullshit Terran can do like just bunker up you need dark swarm.I don't hear people bitching when Oov is sitting just massing and rolling out when Zerg can't do shit. | ||
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SnoopySnacks
Tarsonis903 Posts
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_GniL_
Canada66 Posts
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SnoopySnacks
Tarsonis903 Posts
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On November 30 2004 19:26 tlstmddn wrote: well these pro zergs simply arnt as good. Zerg has been the most used race in korea since starcraft was introduced over there, what are the fucking odds that the best players just happen to be terran? | ||
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SnoopySnacks
Tarsonis903 Posts
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A3iL3r0n
United States2196 Posts
On November 30 2004 19:31 tlstmddn wrote: just because its the most used race doesnt mean they will be automatically better. Hmm, statistically if more players used Zerg the higher the possibility of having talented Zerg players. This is why large schools usually dominate smaller schools in sports, they have a larger talent pool. | ||
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SnoopySnacks
Tarsonis903 Posts
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mightypenny_ph
Philippines259 Posts
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ProudCappi
United States366 Posts
I wonder if these crying zergs would be crying if it had been a ZvZ final. | ||
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Luhh
Sweden2974 Posts
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z3rgy
Korea (South)100 Posts
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jangnan
Korea (South)1 Post
if you can't play late game in zvt, that means that you are just not good enough. you can do many things. drop harass, guardian( also harass), ultra, hydra lurker ssam ssa muk gi, etc. stop crying about it it is fair. | ||
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Pob
880 Posts
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32269 Posts
On November 30 2004 19:35 A3iL3r0n wrote: Hmm, statistically if more players used Zerg the higher the possibility of having talented Zerg players. This is why large schools usually dominate smaller schools in sports, they have a larger talent pool. The china should be #1 in Football World Cup Ohhh wait, they are not. (no bad cooments on china intended) | ||
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ahk-gosu
Korea (South)2099 Posts
On November 30 2004 13:53 poor newb wrote: learn how to move units  just move your units out of it.......... its not that hard. just try to keep your units at the zergs entrance. if someone can push a terran into his own base and he is losing to dark swarms, he is most likely going to lose the game. imo terran is the hardest to push back and to break into. | ||
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oPtioNaLk
Korea (South)564 Posts
On November 30 2004 21:16 IntoTheWow wrote: The china should be #1 in Football World Cup Ohhh wait, they are not. (no bad cooments on china intended) That's not the same as the talent pool discussion because China may have a big talent pool but their culture does not support or nurture football as much as America does. Please think before you make false analogies. | ||
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_GniL_
Canada66 Posts
Ultra/Ling/Defiler or another combo then it's really hard for the Terran to win.TvZ/ZvT is definately the hardest matchup and takes the most skill out of all the possible matchups there are in SC. And it's qualitity player not quantity. | ||
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SnoopySnacks
Tarsonis903 Posts
Btw do they teach english in canada? | ||
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On November 30 2004 21:16 IntoTheWow wrote: The china should be #1 in Football World Cup Ohhh wait, they are not. (no bad cooments on china intended) There are more variables in this example than in comparing pro zergs to pro terrans. Completely invalid point. | ||
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_GniL_
Canada66 Posts
On December 01 2004 12:47 tlstmddn wrote: ZvT is not about containing the terran they can break out easilly with tanks. TvZ is all about winning the battles you fight, if you lose one badly the chances are you will lose the game. Btw do they teach english in canada? When i say containment i mean not allowing them out.If they come out you kill them.Not by leaving lurkers burrowed so tanks and kill them.Btw yes they do teach english here and we speak it better then britian k? | ||
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SnoopySnacks
Tarsonis903 Posts
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_GniL_
Canada66 Posts
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SnoopySnacks
Tarsonis903 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On December 01 2004 13:07 _GniL_ wrote: When i say containment i mean not allowing them out.If they come out you kill them.Not by leaving lurkers burrowed so tanks and kill them.Btw yes they do teach english here and we speak it better then britian k? No you don't speak it better than the brits. And I have no clue what you are arguing about. | ||
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On December 01 2004 13:16 tlstmddn wrote: Terran dont need alot of expansions to win vs zerg.....containment???? ..more like waiting for me to smear your canadian ass on the floor. You have no fucking idea what you're talking about. Zerg many times waits for terran to come out and flank him at an oppurtune time, this is containment. | ||
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SnoopySnacks
Tarsonis903 Posts
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On December 01 2004 14:40 tlstmddn wrote: thats not containment =/ thats just standard zvt. It's containment if terran can't move out his main force and kill expos or take more expos, is it not? He said zvt is about zerg containment, that is what he was refering to, and he would be correct. | ||
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baal
10533 Posts
The defiler its pretty cheap, so cheap sometimes its better to irradiate the lurks under the swarm, i think defilers should be more expensive to make irradiate worth. | ||
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SnoopySnacks
Tarsonis903 Posts
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poor newb
United States1879 Posts
On December 01 2004 14:54 baal wrote: Zerg with hive its very dangerous, the classical T > Z advantage is totally gone when hive is in the game, specially if the T do not have lots of SV. The defiler its pretty cheap, so cheap sometimes its better to irradiate the lurks under the swarm, i think defilers should be more expensive to make irradiate worth. the point to irradiate defilers is to stop zerg from using dark swarm, if you just use it on lurkers then darkswarm+ultra+ling will still kill you remember that terran owns lurkers without darkswarm | ||
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On December 01 2004 15:02 tlstmddn wrote: Containment occurs when terran is prevented from expanding or forced to stay in his base. This can be due constant muta harrassment or drops(lurker//ling/hydra). Flanking wont to stop terran from picking off zerg expos with drops. Your definition of containment is much more narrow than most other players. | ||
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SnoopySnacks
Tarsonis903 Posts
example replay: http://ygclan.vgaclub.co.kr/?m=replay&board=gosureplay&rno=35555 | ||
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On December 01 2004 15:52 tlstmddn wrote: Irradiating and dropping can throw his flank into dissaray and if you get the timing right you can just roll out and paste those critters. Most zergs use scourge and sunken/lurk at expos ^^ | ||
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SnoopySnacks
Tarsonis903 Posts
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TheMann
Canada7 Posts
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eternalbliss
United States1035 Posts
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SoL.Origin
Argentina2400 Posts
and drone harass helps too | ||
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mightypenny_ph
Philippines259 Posts
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32269 Posts
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Bladox
Canada763 Posts
remove/decrease dark swarm and then youll have a totally unbalanced matchup. | ||
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gulii
Sweden2791 Posts
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bio.Joe
Czech Republic21 Posts
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Smurg
Australia3818 Posts
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LastWish
2013 Posts
On December 01 2004 19:55 eternalbliss wrote: Fuck Dark Swarm, so cheap, t.t. Fuck Terrans, so stupid, t.t. Peace | ||
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cSf.Vicek
Czech Republic271 Posts
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kP_cHoBo
United States439 Posts
On November 29 2004 16:39 Day[9] wrote: Games i recommend watching to see terrans countering swarm really well --> July vs ArtOfTerran on Requiem On November 29 2004 12:14 Legionnaire wrote: Firebats and medics/irradiate, you should watch Artofterran vs Julyzerg on requiem (pro league match) you will see what i mean. Its a bloody awesome game. Why cry about one imbalance, there are quite a few. There is a strategy forum for things like this. EVERYONE KEEPS TALKING ABOUT THIS VOD PLZ GIVE ME THE LINK!! PLZ!! I BEEN SEARCHING FOR ABOUT A MONTH NOW... | ||
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FeelTheMoment
89 Posts
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EAGER-beaver
Canada2799 Posts
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7op
Canada654 Posts
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baelrog
Austria705 Posts
On November 29 2004 20:17 emperor wrote: ya i agree , u can make some pretty trails with them defilers without swarm this whole shit would slowly become even more cost ineffeciant than it already is. i mean without consume zerg needs many defilers lurks terrors ultras or whatever he uses. the fact is zerg needs so fucking many gas that he just cant afford swarm without consume | ||
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baelrog
Austria705 Posts
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LastWish
2013 Posts
On December 02 2004 17:48 7op wrote: I agreee let's ban dark swarm Let's ban iradiate too and see what happens. Listen Swarm is OK, maybe the consume thing could be more like 25 mana for zergling and more mana for higher units since one zergling is only 25 minerals. By consuming ultra u should get full mana anyway. | ||
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88)WhyYouKickMyDog
United States608 Posts
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88)WhyYouKickMyDog
United States608 Posts
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Jethro
Norway95 Posts
Do you get more mana restored from an comsumed ultra than a consumed ling btw? | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28584 Posts
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ahk-gosu
Korea (South)2099 Posts
every unit including air units small medium large all give the defiler 50 mana. this pretty much makes the use of defiler mana upgrade useless, seeing as how it will only cost 50 minerals to get instant 100 mana. i think it is pretty balanced. the real unbalance is the units that work within the dark swarm. lurker is really a ranged unit but works in it :/. ultralisks have way too much armor in this game especially vs protoss. cracklings 3 3 vs marines or zlots 3 3 ups. the upgrades negate eachother (except zlot armor 1 and shield ups) but cracklings attack much faster which just means that in the end, zerg gets the huge advantage. 3 cracklings with 3 3 ups should beat a zlot with 3 3. 1 crackling vs 1 marine 3 3 ups should win also ultra armor. 6 armor. makes marine damage ( with 3 ups) only 3 because of 6+3 marine damage - 6 this means that marines have to hit an ultra about 136 times in order to kill it. and usually the zerg has more than 1................. think about if they have 7 ultras. 7 x 136 = enough. do the math vs protoss. zlots attack type :/ 2x 6 armor ultras 12 minus damage from initial 16 + 6 - 12 = 12 400 devided by 12 = a lot seeing as how zlots hits are very slow. even vs lings :/ 3 hits. comeon................ maybe the terrans are a bit balanced because tanks do 70 damage seige without upgrades. 85 is hugeeeee. defense matrix can eat up 250 damage per casting. irradiate kills off every zerg unit except ultra and devourer. but i think the damage should be a bit faster. a tad bit. but protoss. dark archons can help with this problem but maelstrom has a huge mana cost and the maelstrom lasts a VERY VERY VERY short amount of time. i think the balance should be that the maelstrom effect lasts a bit longer. maybe about 9 seconds? | ||
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Jethro
Norway95 Posts
it's the same principal with ultra's vs rine's. an ultra is a high tech unit while marines is NO TECH units. | ||
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LastWish
2013 Posts
On December 03 2004 12:24 Jethro wrote: the zealot is a tier 1 unit, and an ultra is a tier 3. Shoud'nt the ultra's own zealot's? Toss have many units that counters ultra's pretty good: DT's, Reaver's, Goon's, DA's and Archon's. it's the same principal with ultra's vs rine's. an ultra is a high tech unit while marines is NO TECH units. This is not W3, protoss&terran don't have tier units | ||
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loztdignity
Sweden176 Posts
I kinda agree that its perhaps a bit strong, not the spell itself but consume. They shuold tak consume away or something, but then again, I almost never have problems with Dark Swarm since, like Infinity also said, its VERY micro-intense and its very hard to pull off with alot of units, so basically it won't win the game for you. | ||
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PIKI
Poland143 Posts
Clon easly rape Xellos with fast defiler. He has only 1 gas, wtf!? | ||
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Pob
880 Posts
On December 06 2004 03:51 PIKI wrote: DualTournament - 2004/12/05 - Game 5 Xellos vs Clon Clon easly rape Xellos with fast defiler. He has only 1 gas, wtf!? bwahahaha 1 gas defilers , terran deserved to die | ||
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uiCk
Canada1925 Posts
On December 06 2004 04:08 Pob wrote: bwahahaha 1 gas defilers , terran deserved to die yea, seriously :/ | ||
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ahk-gosu
Korea (South)2099 Posts
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worst.player
625 Posts
Theorycraft on the spot. Prolly sux.. but how much are valks? 125 gas? Worth it if you can just irad all his defilers as you please. :O prolly sux early game though, when you don't have an expo for 2nd gas. | ||
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NuclearAntelope
United States1369 Posts
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ComunistHobo
Canada208 Posts
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kuwakJai
Thailand198 Posts
but id like to look at it just like something of terran having that option of early game bunk adv (or d/a) and zerg having late game swarm adv | ||
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