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On December 22 2009 21:18 Weryeery wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2009 13:35 avaTar[ wrote:On December 19 2009 14:38 789 wrote:
I ...Funny thing is they yell at terrans for turtling, and then when they do an aggressive opening its cheese....
How else is terran supposed to punish the other races for 12 pool/12 nexus. Completely agree on that mate, Z and P has a lot of cheese options and us terrans got only BBS and maybe proxy fac on their main or something.  and still they complain. Z dont have cheese option, they have allin builds. that means if the aggression fail its over you can leave. Whats magical with T and P is they have builds that are as deadly than Z allin but even if it miserably fail you can still recover.
yes, when the zerg is nub. z can survive anything with just few lurkers and defilers. and cheap scourges.
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Yeah but if you fail an all-in you won't survive long enough to get defilers which is the point he's trying to make. What kind of all-in occurs at hive tech?
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On December 23 2009 00:19 QuakerOats wrote:
Yeah but if you fail an all-in you won't survive long enough to get defilers which is the point he's trying to make. What kind of all-in occurs at hive tech?
2 hat lurker into super duper fast defiler 
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On December 23 2009 00:19 QuakerOats wrote:
Yeah but if you fail an all-in you won't survive long enough to get defilers which is the point he's trying to make. What kind of all-in occurs at hive tech?
read my earlier post, think for a moment and you realize why there is no all-ins after hive-tech it's impossible to all-in if you can recover from anything!
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its like protoss going fast dts against terrans.
its not cheese, but its gay as hell
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On December 22 2009 16:22 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2009 16:15 checo wrote:
If zergs would stop tryng to 12 hatch all the time they wouldn't even mind 8rax.... greedy bastards If Terrans would stop 12 raxing all the time, they wouldn't even mind 4 pools. /sarcasm off, 12 Hatch is necessary for zergs to stay on economic par with terrans.
Thats why i don't mind 4pools i have never lost to that i never 12 rax... Well if you wan't econ advantage then you take the risk, just like 12 rax or 14 cc, no chesse at all
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On December 23 2009 02:39 checo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2009 16:22 Avidkeystamper wrote:On December 22 2009 16:15 checo wrote:
If zergs would stop tryng to 12 hatch all the time they wouldn't even mind 8rax.... greedy bastards If Terrans would stop 12 raxing all the time, they wouldn't even mind 4 pools. /sarcasm off, 12 Hatch is necessary for zergs to stay on economic par with terrans. Thats why i don't mind 4pools i have never lost to that i never 12 rax... Well if you wan't econ advantage then you take the risk, just like 12 rax or 14 cc, no chesse at all
which is probably why ull never get higher than d+
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On December 23 2009 03:37 saltywet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2009 02:39 checo wrote:On December 22 2009 16:22 Avidkeystamper wrote:On December 22 2009 16:15 checo wrote:
If zergs would stop tryng to 12 hatch all the time they wouldn't even mind 8rax.... greedy bastards If Terrans would stop 12 raxing all the time, they wouldn't even mind 4 pools. /sarcasm off, 12 Hatch is necessary for zergs to stay on economic par with terrans. Thats why i don't mind 4pools i have never lost to that i never 12 rax... Well if you wan't econ advantage then you take the risk, just like 12 rax or 14 cc, no chesse at all which is probably why ull never get higher than d+
Maybe XD but i don't call 8 rax chesse neither and i just dont get higher than D+ cause school takes to much time from me, can't even play 2hrs in a row, thats why no because i use greedy builds
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
I don't think 8rax is cheese.
Cheese = All-in build.
8rax != All-in build.
8rax != Cheese. Q.E.D.
8rax into fast vulture is really gay though.
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8rax into fast vulture is really gay
into fast wraith 
no cheese at all - just plain pain in the ass for the entire game 
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On December 24 2009 16:06 fOscB.Sulik.SLR wrote:into fast wraith no cheese at all - just plain pain in the ass for the entire game
hard gay rape
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Countered By - (From Liquipedia)
* 9 pool - pretty much negates this rush, but it doesn't really give Zerg any big advantage as Terran will defend against the Pool easily.
* Zergling run-by - If the bunker is poorly placed and the SCVs are not ready to block it, the Zerg players can get his 6 first Zerglings through and run to the Terran main, killing the few SCVs that are left. The Zerg natural will die, but Zerg still wins .
An 8 rax is more known for a bunker rush, therefore cheese. Though it is not all-in such as a BBS. This is a SOFT counter to the 12 hatch 11 pool build of the century. However, with good drone micro this build should be thwarted away. The best transitioning from this build (considering the deeds are applied) is into the standard 1 rax into FE. If you actually kill the zerg natural the zerg is forced (or will most likely if he wants a chance of winning to go into lurkers. If this does happen, best is to run on 1 base terran while OPing the zerg and not letting him expand till the lurkers are out. A quick factory (usually after 2nd barracks) with 1 tank (tanks may be cut, one may be enough for 1 base lurker) may counteract the lurkers considering you have decent micro.
Micro is really intense in this build, as it is needed to apply damage. Though it may not seem, the economic difference between the two builds (while the other being the basic 1 rax>FE) are huge. This would be considered cheese, highly depending on the barracks placement. Inside the main would be a standard aggressive opening. I myself would put it in the natural. As said this build is micro intense. if you can't deal with a 9 pool (without a bunker or ramp block, this is pretty much testing your scv-marine skills) I wouldn't recommend this build.
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On December 24 2009 17:58 TriniMasta[wD] wrote:Show nested quote +Countered By - (From Liquipedia)
* 9 pool - pretty much negates this rush, but it doesn't really give Zerg any big advantage as Terran will defend against the Pool easily.
* Zergling run-by - If the bunker is poorly placed and the SCVs are not ready to block it, the Zerg players can get his 6 first Zerglings through and run to the Terran main, killing the few SCVs that are left. The Zerg natural will die, but Zerg still wins . An 8 rax is more known for a bunker rush, therefore cheese. Though it is not all-in such as a BBS. This is a SOFT counter to the 12 hatch 11 pool build of the century. However, with good drone micro this build should be thwarted away. The best transitioning from this build (considering the deeds are applied) is into the standard 1 rax into FE. If you actually kill the zerg natural the zerg is forced (or will most likely if he wants a chance of winning to go into lurkers. If this does happen, best is to run on 1 base terran while OPing the zerg and not letting him expand till the lurkers are out. A quick factory (usually after 2nd barracks) with 1 tank (tanks may be cut, one may be enough for 1 base lurker) may counteract the lurkers considering you have decent micro. Micro is really intense in this build, as it is needed to apply damage. Though it may not seem, the economic difference between the two builds (while the other being the basic 1 rax>FE) are huge. This would be considered cheese, highly depending on the barracks placement. Inside the main would be a standard aggressive opening. I myself would put it in the natural. As said this build is micro intense. if you can't deal with a 9 pool (without a bunker or ramp block, this is pretty much testing your scv-marine skills) I wouldn't recommend this build.
You just covered everything of what everyone already knows in perfect detail!
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Sweden1014 Posts
I would call 8 rax cheese because I recently met a Korean doing it in the middle of the map on Blue Storm and pulling away some SCV:s with a couple marines, but when he saw my 9 pool he lifted the rax and made factory and tried to block unsuccessfully. I had very fast muta build and I won pretty easily, BUT there's no way I would win to that guy if he played standard cus he never lost to a foreigner before and was 3-4 ranks above me.
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So if it gets hard-countered by 9 pool it's cheese?
... actually, that's not a bad definition.
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It is based upon no scouting before you make the decision, and it is countered/hard countered by a more or less standard build (9pool). Unless u do it in base, witch makes the build so much more worse, but very different from a proxy 8 rax.
On December 25 2009 09:16 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
So if it gets hard-countered by 9 pool it's cheese?
... actually, that's not a bad definition.
Ohh? It is a very bad definition. But it is so much luck dependent that I would call it a cheese.
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9 pool is NOT standard ZvT
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8 rax into bunker rush is cheese, because if it fails you are really far behind esp if u pull 2-3 scvs.
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9 pool speedling best zvt build, who u kidding zerg_russian
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Flash's 8 rax is NOT cheese.
it was perfectly positioned and timed against the overlord, and while jd is supply stuck (but not really suffering from it other than scouting information) Flash goes in for the kill.
even if the bunker failed flash is still on a base with same number of scvs. not all-in at all.
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EPT
