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My standard opener for TvZ is an 8 rax into mech.
After using it on many players, and having lots of bm thrown my way for "fucking cheese", I have to ask:
Why is 8 rax considered cheese?
It doesn't really set you behind very far in terms of economy, but it's upside is great.
2-3 marines, and 1-2 scvs are at his base before the spawning pool finishes.
The zerg is then forced to make a choice.
They either have to pull almost all of their drones, and lose 3-4 of them.
or
Stall and make around 14-16 zerglings to surround the bunker.
Either way, the bunker and early rax have already paid for themselves, in addition to allowing you to dictate the pace of the game early on.
Why is this not considered a standard opener for TvZ?
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i would Consider something like 8 rax a standard opening now because of the fact that its kinda saying 9 pool is a cheese in a way. you are applying pressure but not killing the zerg if he hatch. the same for zerg if he 9 pool and attacks you. he is also applying that pressure and there is a minimal chance for either build to win.
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what's stopping him from sending those 14-16 lings to your base?
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Even if it was "cheese" who cares? The point of the game is to win. There is no other criteria for success (perhaps "fun" but it's more fun if you win right?).
Otoh, unless it's an all-in, I wouldn't call it cheese. Cheese is generally something that if countered, you're screwed. In this case you are just applying early pressure to disrupt and then going for a solid follow up. Not cheese, IMO. Oh, and I'm a zerg player too, so I'm trying not to speak with bias.
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Well I guess it's like when a protoss 1 gate proxies or gas steals or both.
If you're on the receiving end you'll want to call it cheese.
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United States9107 Posts
8 rax isn't cheese, and even if it was, people who complain about cheese are just stupid noobs.
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United States9107 Posts
No build is truly cheese in fact really. I just watched a rep from TL's rep section where Oystein goes 6 pool and the game ends up being a close 40+ minute match.
The reason why I think it's silly to call 8 rax cheese is because it's not allin at all really.
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No its not cheese, but you can make it a cheese by pulling all of your scvs without enough info!
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I don't think this is cheese. 8BBS is, but this is more of just utilizing every building to their max efficiency. Obviously, mech doesn't require marines, so what's the point of having that barrack sitting in your base?
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Its hard to say what cheese really is... as Chill said in as he closed a thread in the recent past. I wouldn't say its cheese until you make it an all-in like pulling scvs like Stylish said.
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Its hard to define cheese.
But the fact that Terran can open up 8 rax and fail the rush and still come out ahead makes some Zerg player mad at the imbalance. You can easily transition to mech and lift off the rax so you don't even lose your building lol. Just the fact that its not risky at all and its great non-standard opening, used to make me more pissed off when I used to play Zerg
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8 rax isnt cheese.
bbs or proxy rax is cheese
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I'm going to have to say that if proxy'd it's cheese because if they pool first you lose the game hands down. If you do 8 rax in base it's not really cheese. I also feel that if you do it on a 4 player map it's fairly cheesy since you need to scout super early to make it guaranteed effective. It has happened to me as zerg on python and honestly I do feel that it is cheese there since if they pool first and you're streaming rines and have 2 scvs out you are screwed.
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Who cares if it's cheese? Pointless classification. Everyone sets a different bar for the level of early aggression considered "standard", and they're all arbitrary and absurdly stupid in a game of strategy where the norm is always changing to defy what is expected.
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On December 19 2009 14:02 lazz wrote:
8 rax isnt cheese.
bbs or proxy rax is cheese
Ya, I gotta agree with this.
When someone criticizes you for winning a certain way, just ignore them and laugh to yourself because your opponent is a whinny little bitch.
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It wins the game or it doesn't. There is no cheese.
Some builds are less stable than others, and this will contribute to losses. Avoiding losses is a good idea, so playing stable builds is a good idea.
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I concur with pretty much everyone here. 8 Rax by itself isn't cheese. It's a more aggressive opening then your standard 10 rax, doesn't make it cheese. Funny thing is they yell at terrans for turtling, and then when they do an aggressive opening its cheese. You can make an 8 rax into cheese tho ... smthn like bbs with massive scv pulling I'd consider cheese. I'm not sure I would even consider a standard 8 rax bunker rush with an scv or 2 cheese anymore. How else is terran supposed to punish the other races for 12 pool/12 nexus.
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it doesnt really matter; and it isn't cheese. your opponent is just angry he/she(yeah right) lost.
its a strong counter to zerg standard 12hatch vs T, so it would be stupid NOT to go it if you are good at it.
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8 rax makes zerg mad because of how much it isn't cheese; and by that I mean if it's countered it's not a big deal.
I'm fine with it, but that's probably the main reason.
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EPT
