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On December 20 2009 02:17 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Cheese is a build where you don't think behind: you want to win straight away and if opponent defends you are fucked. Period.
BBS in TvT is a cheese, because it has no future. 8rax into mech cannot be a cheese.
Cheese should not be defined about how risky it is. Because 8 rax can be a decent threat to a Zerg early game and its not risky but its non-standard.
I think Cheese should be defined as something people wouldn't do on a standard basis.
Just because 8 rax is not risky just shows TvZ is imba matchup, 8 rax SHOULD have been risky if it fails
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8 rax into mech was popular with pros in early/mid 2009, I remember seeing it a lot on one of the blue maps, like Neo Medusa or RotK.
And it's not a cheese, many of those games were pretty standard.
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i wouldnt consider 8 rax cheese, just an offensive pressure bo
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its cheese if you bring a lot of scvs
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Yeah, like ^he said, it's cheese if you pull a bunch of SCVs for some sort of early kill, but if you just do it to put a little bit of pressure on, and maybe get some drone kills, it's not really cheese, but that's why I usually open 9 pool into 2 or 3 hatch, because it's a decent counter to it, and if you can kill off the rallied rines, the terran is screwed (unless they wall of something).
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I guess the thing about this is that the Terran can proxy 8rax, bring like 8 SCVs to the natural, and even if the Z somehow fights it off making like 2 sunkens and a crapton of lings, the T just brings his SCVs back home and he's ahead. Fair.
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On December 19 2009 16:14 SkepTicAL wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2009 16:12 Avidkeystamper wrote:On December 19 2009 16:05 SkepTicAL wrote:
8 rax is a build order, not a cheese. Cheese is something that you can't recover from if it fails. 8 rax you can transition to mech or fe carrying on the game from there. That's not a very good definition. It's hard to recover from anything if it fails. I would consider cheese more something that would never work if your opponent knew it was coming. Thats not true either then lol, you can see a cannon rush coming and still lose. Cheese is something completely all-in imo, bunker rush(unless you send every worker you have) isn't all-in.
No, I mean if hypothetically you knew they were gonna do it before, then they have NO chance of succeeding.
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lets see a replay of your 8 rax.
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my definition of cheese is something that will set you behind if you dont do economic damage. 8 rax is like half-cheese. with starcraft being such a macro game these days, based around mechanics, one base builds like sparks terran or 1 gate tech pvz seem cheesy anymore 
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On December 19 2009 16:12 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2009 16:05 SkepTicAL wrote:
8 rax is a build order, not a cheese. Cheese is something that you can't recover from if it fails. 8 rax you can transition to mech or fe carrying on the game from there. That's not a very good definition. It's hard to recover from anything if it fails. I would consider cheese more something that would never work if your opponent knew it was coming.
Ok so if you intend to do a probe drop on a terrans SCV's and you don't lose the shuttle but you lose 2 probes 30 minutes in game its hard to recover from that?
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On December 20 2009 09:33 sS.NuB wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2009 16:12 Avidkeystamper wrote:On December 19 2009 16:05 SkepTicAL wrote:
8 rax is a build order, not a cheese. Cheese is something that you can't recover from if it fails. 8 rax you can transition to mech or fe carrying on the game from there. That's not a very good definition. It's hard to recover from anything if it fails. I would consider cheese more something that would never work if your opponent knew it was coming. Ok so if you intend to do a probe drop on a terrans SCV's and you don't lose the shuttle but you lose 2 probes 30 minutes in game its hard to recover from that?
Ask iris, he failed an SCV drop on savior and then lost the game.
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On December 19 2009 13:41 AzureEye wrote:
Its hard to define cheese.
cheese isn't defined at all
there is no fine line between cheese and standard
if someone says a build is cheese they're just mad they didn't scout it and lost to it...
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Nowadays everything is considered "cheese" and is an excuse to BM like a little fag.
quick DT's against a T? cheese.
2 gate opening against a Z? cheese.
2 gate opening against a P? also a cheese, it seems.
anything that's not super-standard and unexpected? cheese.
IC Cup sometimes pisses me off.
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lets see a replay of your 8 rax.
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there's really no such thing as cheese
man i'm a problem solver 8]
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On December 20 2009 03:05 AzureEye wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2009 02:17 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Cheese is a build where you don't think behind: you want to win straight away and if opponent defends you are fucked. Period.
BBS in TvT is a cheese, because it has no future. 8rax into mech cannot be a cheese. Cheese should not be defined about how risky it is. Because 8 rax can be a decent threat to a Zerg early game and its not risky but its non-standard. I think Cheese should be defined as something people wouldn't do on a standard basis. Just because 8 rax is not risky just shows TvZ is imba matchup, 8 rax SHOULD have been risky if it fails
Aren't you the guy who was claiming PvT was hard? Do you have a vendetta against Terran players or something?
Anyways, I generally don't like opening 8 rax because I find that it's just not a fun build. Sure it might win games but it's still kind of... boring.
I like playing against 8 rax the few times I play Zerg because I feel awesome when I kill that first marine with just drones 
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Slight offtopic here. On 2 player maps, why do you not got 8rax every time you open mech? I have such a hard time seeing how any other build can be better than this when going mech, since it's so hard to stop without losing a drone or two and much mining time. And as others have pointed out, it has the potential to end the game (even Jaedong loses to this -.-, even on 3 player maps), while it has a relatively little downside economically. Yes, I know it's shit compared to 1 rax shit in econ, but the ammount you fuckup the zerg, I think it's completely worth it, plus some more. So, any answer why every terran opening mech doesn't do it with 8 rax?
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On December 21 2009 02:55 Papvin wrote:
Slight offtopic here. On 2 player maps, why do you not got 8rax every time you open mech? I have such a hard time seeing how any other build can be better than this when going mech, since it's so hard to stop without losing a drone or two and much mining time. And as others have pointed out, it has the potential to end the game (even Jaedong loses to this -.-, even on 3 player maps), while it has a relatively little downside economically. Yes, I know it's shit compared to 1 rax shit in econ, but the ammount you fuckup the zerg, I think it's completely worth it, plus some more. So, any answer why every terran opening mech doesn't do it with 8 rax?
I can see going 8rax on two player maps, but not every single time. When you say losing a drone, are you sending the first marine and an scv to kill it? (faking a bunker and then killing the drones). Even if you cancel the bunker, I feel that the zerg would still come out ahead.
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Umm, for a while, I got sick of losing to 5 pool or 9 pools speed, so I started going for a 9 BBS build, just to get enough marines out to survive that early rush, and if they don't rush, I can put some pressure on them to try to equalize the game.
I got flak from opponents for thinking it was cheesy whenever I won..... Oddly enough, I didn't try for some kind of all-in build, and I ended up having late gas, and a late expansion because of it. It was worse for me than it was for them.....
Honestly, some players are really, really dumb. They think that any non-standard play is cheesy. Mine put me at a disadvantage, yet apparently it was "cheesy"..... Should I go for a 2 CC before rax build, so I don't rush and get called for a "cheesy build"?
Just ignore people like that. Let them think that they play like a pro-gamer, because they try to imitate them, when in reality, those kinds of players suck.
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These threads are horrible.
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EPT
