On December 19 2009 18:16 Mortician wrote: Everything that can help you win the game is cheese, and if you don't cheese, "you win by doing retarded shit" as IdrA said. Damn you with all these threads...
SRSLY: 8 Rax is a great opening that puts you in an advantage and you can transition into anything. It is like saying 3 hatch spire, 5 hatch hydra is a cheese, because it is easy executable and wins you a lot of games
On December 19 2009 17:45 unSpeake wrote: if zerg goes 9 pool or even overpool you basically lose as a terran player, which is why it is considered cheese; you are assuming the zerg 12hatches without even scouting which makes it mostly a luck based build and with the recent influx of 8rax / proxy factory based builds because fantasy loves them overpool is becoming more common anyway
Yeah, cuz zergs go 9/Overpool every game... The new maps have big rush distances ('cept Match Point) so even if the Zerg opens with early pool and you open 8 rax, you can stil defend pretty easily
If a zerg goes 9pool/overpool vs 8 rax it isn't even about defending. Your tech is severely delayed (and you are forced to go mech if you proxy the 8 rax) and have no real option of pressuring the zerg for a good amount of time after that since you need to wall-in and you also have your tech delayed a bunch. On the flip side, zerg can effectively deny scouting if they clear the initial 2-3 rines/scvs out of the way since the terran is forced to wall-in. A lot of the maps out right now are prime meat for proxy 8 raxing (desti, HBR, outsider) which means overpool opening is much more viable (not that it isn't always)
if u put at at ur natural at like othello or andromeda its not cheese, ur in ok shape if they find it out or open 9pool
if u put it on the side of the enemy bridges on destination then yes its cheese, cause if they scout it its practically gg
cheese is just a sloppy term for making decisions without intel. but then ofcourse we stretch this far how we like it and thats why we end up arguing asking if 8rax is cheese 12hatch without scouting is also cheese, but when its on the economical side its something we call abusive
the key point to understand is that ur goal is to win the game, it doesnt matter how u do it. if a zerg goes 12hatch in the first game against me without scouting then i might aswell just bbs in the next game and own him hard, and then 3rd game he opens 9pool, and the list goes on..
It depends on the intent. If it's aggressive with a few SCVs with an intent to transition into another followup I could see it not being cheese. If it's proxied with a huge amount of SCVs pulled it is definitely cheese by the standard definition.
Zergs get MAD at this and its understandable , its such a gay build to play vs , you lose right away or you are more or less behind anyways if u defend very well ( which is really hard and a bit random at times ) ...... this is unfair and thus frustrates as hell .
On December 19 2009 18:16 Mortician wrote: Everything that can help you win the game is cheese, and if you don't cheese, "you win by doing retarded shit" as IdrA said. Damn you with all these threads...
SRSLY: 8 Rax is a great opening that puts you in an advantage and you can transition into anything. It is like saying 3 hatch spire, 5 hatch hydra is a cheese, because it is easy executable and wins you a lot of games
On December 19 2009 17:45 unSpeake wrote: if zerg goes 9 pool or even overpool you basically lose as a terran player, which is why it is considered cheese; you are assuming the zerg 12hatches without even scouting which makes it mostly a luck based build and with the recent influx of 8rax / proxy factory based builds because fantasy loves them overpool is becoming more common anyway
Yeah, cuz zergs go 9/Overpool every game... The new maps have big rush distances ('cept Match Point) so even if the Zerg opens with early pool and you open 8 rax, you can stil defend pretty easily
If a zerg goes 9pool/overpool vs 8 rax it isn't even about defending. Your tech is severely delayed (and you are forced to go mech if you proxy the 8 rax) and have no real option of pressuring the zerg for a good amount of time after that since you need to wall-in and you also have your tech delayed a bunch. On the flip side, zerg can effectively deny scouting if they clear the initial 2-3 rines/scvs out of the way since the terran is forced to wall-in. A lot of the maps out right now are prime meat for proxy 8 raxing (desti, HBR, outsider) which means overpool opening is much more viable (not that it isn't always)
You can count the times zerg opened with an early pool that wasn't versus Flash or the zerg wasn't Kwanro. It's like once in a 20 or 30 games. I know on ladder it is more often, but still, i rarely see zergs going pool first if it isn't Python, where you can scout the opponent fast and he can't make a ling tigh wall without a Fact.
Not to mention that you have to scout with 8th drone or even 7th to see it coming in time to put an early pool. And if you blindly go 9 pool/overpool, especially with gas, and don't do ANY damage, you are pretty much fucked.
On December 19 2009 22:35 UFO wrote: Zergs get MAD at this and its understandable , its such a gay build to play vs , you lose right away or you are more or less behind anyways if u defend very well ( which is really hard and a bit random at times ) ...... this is unfair and thus frustrates as hell .
Isn`t a cheeze tho.
That's what I've been trying to say. Mech is gay, it is easier than bio and will win you more games JUST LIKE THAT ZVP BUILD.
What makes 8 rax more "imbalanced" are 2 player maps. Zerg has to deal with that gay ebay on natural shit. "oh just go overpool man!". Yeah right, then you are playing on destination and he just makes a perfect wall goes mech and you just made the 6 more useless lings ever, also wont be prepared on time to face a speed vulture rush. So: the bo is not cheese, some maps are just imba. (destination) :D
8rax is cheese if you bunker rush with like 8 SCVs and so on. 8rax isn't cheese if you do it into mech and do the bunker rush with like 1-2 marines and 2 or so SCVs.
On December 19 2009 14:33 DefMatrixUltra wrote: It wins the game or it doesn't. There is no cheese.
And there is no spoon.
Of course there's such a thing as cheese. 4pool, BBS, Horror Gate and the such are tactics that anyone who doesn't hard-counter them and goes for a standard econ build will just die, yet if countered usually spell doom for the person trying them.
8rax is the Terran 9pool. 8rax bunker rush is 9pool speed. Those are legitimate tactics that can be countered with a solid build, can be transitioned out of into a standard game.
On December 19 2009 23:57 Tropics wrote: It's a build that should be all in but isn't
you shouldn't be able to cut that much early on for units and be safe even if you get destroyed, damn it
9pool speed should leave you economically crippled and unable to have a mid-game dammit.
On December 19 2009 13:26 Jonoman92 wrote: No build is truly cheese in fact really. I just watched a rep from TL's rep section where Oystein goes 6 pool and the game ends up being a close 40+ minute match.
The reason why I think it's silly to call 8 rax cheese is because it's not allin at all really.
Well 5pool is kinda cheesy, I mean if your opponent makes a gate first you pretty much auto lose unless he fucks up. However its a pretty good build if your certain your opponent will FE (for example on maps like Medusa where there really ain`t any other choice) and you only make 6lings and transitions straight into a normal game after that.
I always considered cheese, builds you cant recover from if they fail, for example 2hatch hydra breaks, either you win the game there or if the toss made cannons you lose.
On December 19 2009 16:25 Weryeery wrote: 8 rax is not a cheese. its just an illustration of the imbalance of the match up.
Its a game winning opening if its not defended properly, and even if its perfectly defended you're still ahead.
So dont be suprised if some Z players get pissed at you if you use 8 rax
Agree 100%
Its retarded how they have the option to use 8 rax as cheese (that is not risky at all) and can still come out ahead if it fails. Just shows that TvZ is the most imba matchup in SC. Even if Protoss gas stole the Terran, he still loses 100 minerals early on which delays his tech as well as the Terran's. In this case, you use the early barracks to get early factory which forces Zerg to get early sunken and you don't even lose your damn building because it fucking floats lol. So Terran's tech advances, while Zerg delays his tech. Is that even fair?
EPT
