EPTOn December 21 2009 02:24 Day[9] wrote:
there's really no such thing as cheese
man i'm a problem solver 8]
there's really no such thing as cheese
man i'm a problem solver 8]
My point exactly
8 rax = cheese? - Page 5
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Saturnize
United States2473 Posts
My point exactly | ||
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WeSt
Portugal918 Posts
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letsfighting
United States5 Posts
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6632 Posts
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stink123
United States241 Posts
Also 8 rax is really great versus REAL cheese such as 4/5/6 pool. | ||
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Chunkybuddha
Canada347 Posts
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True Swifty
Poland22 Posts
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
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King K. Rool
Canada4408 Posts
On December 21 2009 11:42 ArvickHero wrote: I say we stop using the word "cheese" and start using the phrase "strategic play" like the Koreans to describe any non-management type of strategy. Yeah, but cheese rolls off the tongue so much better and is easier to yell (and if you're embarassed about SC then people just think you like cheese too much). Zergs should just man the fuck up. The first real games ofStarcraft I played against my friends all he did was bunker rush me with some sort of 8-rax build. Just get used to it; it's not like you're that far behind if you defend it, if you kill the first 1-2 marines then he backs off. If you do a pool first build you're likely to not lose any drones at all. Build a sunken for the vulture, you're building one anyways if they're going mech. | ||
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ZeKk
Sweden320 Posts
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NrG.Bamboo
United States2756 Posts
An example of cheese would be, of course, 8rax. An example of an all-in TvZ would be proxy BBS. The difference is that if it is directly countered, there is little to no way the BBS player would win, while the 8rax player will probably be set behind. On December 21 2009 12:00 ZeKk wrote: Well even if 8 rax cheese seems kinda imba to zerg, you can always count on that protoss doing the same thing to terran and wheter they fail or not they came out as the terran after the cheese namely: even or ahead with you Exactly, going something like DT rush -> quick expand -> 2base arbiters would be a normal build in my opinion. Cheese, yes, but far from all-in (that is, of course, if the Terran didn't 2fac vult or something and win right off the bat). | ||
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AzureEye
United States1360 Posts
On December 21 2009 12:00 ZeKk wrote: Well even if 8 rax cheese seems kinda imba to zerg, you can always count on that protoss doing the same thing to terran and wheter they fail or not they came out as the terran after the cheese namely: even or ahead with you On December 20 2009 03:00 AzureEye wrote: Agree 100% Its retarded how they have the option to use 8 rax as cheese (that is not risky at all) and can still come out ahead if it fails. Just shows that TvZ is the most imba matchup in SC. Even if Protoss gas stole the Terran, he still loses 100 minerals early on which delays his tech as well as the Terran's. In this case, you use the early barracks to get early factory which forces Zerg to get early sunken and you don't even lose your damn building because it fucking floats lol. So Terran's tech advances, while Zerg delays his tech. Is that even fair? | ||
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Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
BBS, however, is though. | ||
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yarkO
Canada810 Posts
(*: or 2nd if you count factory) zerg cheese (imo) is all-in speedlings. anything else is just aggressive or strategic play. | ||
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LxRogue
United States1415 Posts
8rax implies that you will bring 2-3 scvs and bunker rush, excepted only if the zerg went pool first. Really, the only more aggressive build TvZ is BBS, which is almost totally all in. | ||
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Stuslegend
Canada168 Posts
On December 19 2009 14:33 DefMatrixUltra wrote: There is no cheese. but is there spoons? | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
On December 21 2009 14:16 Valentine wrote: The way I see it, cheese is simply a tactic or build that depends on simple chance. Cheese != all-in. Cheese is simply using "chance" to either put you ahead or put you behind. So 12 hatch in ZvZ is cheese? You might have something different in mind, but the definition you gave is retarded. | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
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DreaM)XeRO
Korea (South)4667 Posts
.. the downside is that you might be sacrificing economy for the faster rax however i dont think the 8 rax is cheese you could be using it for the faster factory 8 rax coupled with the bunker rush could be counted as cheese or a fast rine push.. idk zergs have to learn how to deal with early rine pressure | ||
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old times sake
165 Posts
A. Your earliest effective attacks = "cheese" builds B. Maximize your advantage vs A = "middle" builds, "normal" builds C. Maximize your advantage vs C = hurt by A, stronger vs B Rock paper scissors, but weighted. So what I mean by "loser strategies" is that class A, the "cheese", overall is weak and shouldn't win often and therefore, maybe nobody should do it. However, if there is zero threat of A, then nobody should really do B either. In fact, in a world where everybody is doing C, you should probably just do A, though... even though overall, it's a bad bet. There are also variations of these, for instance "almost C" builds that seek to "almost tie" with A (cancel hatch ZvZ). There are "almost A" builds that seek to "almost beat" (advantage but not beat) C's, while "almost keeping up" with B. You can see how this works. Anyways, I think of "cheese" as one of the three classes of extremes under which you can place advantages between BO's. They are the ones that gain the advantage early against certain builds and find themselves behind _strongly_ against others. Maybe I haven't said it perfectly but I think I have shown you how I think of "cheese," but others may define it differently. edit: Oh, so in this framework, if what you say is correct, 8 rax is closer to a "B"; it's an "almost B", slightly behind a straight up advantage-vs-cheese maximizer, in order to have a "partial A" (punish C but not as fully as a maximal cheese, maximal A). If others say that 8 rax loses more hardcore then I would count it as a pure "cheese", but you don't seem to think this at all... on the other hand, something that hurts a lot more when it fails would be Proxy BBS. | ||
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