if 8 rax isnt cheese. then i hope i never hear you cry about some protoss who goes proxy gate zealot harass into dt into arbiter. but i am sure you QQ all day about protoss

jello_biafra

United Kingdom6639 Posts

December 20 2009 23:04 GMT

#84

It's definitely cheese, the entire point of it is to gay your opponent early in the game. 9 pool speed is of course cheese as well.

stink123

United States241 Posts

December 20 2009 23:06 GMT

#85

If cheese is defined as something that depends more on surprise than execution to determine its effectiveness, then 8 rax isn't a cheese anymore than 9 pool is a cheese. They're both aggressive builds that sacrifice economy and/or tech, and can easily transition to midgame.

Also 8 rax is really great versus REAL cheese such as 4/5/6 pool.

Chunkybuddha

Canada347 Posts

December 20 2009 23:29 GMT

#86

Cheese is all-in. Anybody has a build order for this 8 rax? Buddy doesn't want to produce a replay.

True Swifty

Poland22 Posts

December 20 2009 23:32 GMT

#87

Cheese don't need to be all-in. Imo 8 rax itself is not, but when youre adding bunker to it = then yes it is.

ArvickHero

10387 Posts

December 21 2009 02:42 GMT

#88

I say we stop using the word "cheese" and start using the phrase "strategic play" like the Koreans to describe any non-management type of strategy.

King K. Rool

Canada4408 Posts

December 21 2009 02:58 GMT

#89

On December 21 2009 11:42 ArvickHero wrote:
I say we stop using the word "cheese" and start using the phrase "strategic play" like the Koreans to describe any non-management type of strategy.

Yeah, but cheese rolls off the tongue so much better and is easier to yell (and if you're embarassed about SC then people just think you like cheese too much).

Zergs should just man the fuck up. The first real games ofStarcraft I played against my friends all he did was bunker rush me with some sort of 8-rax build. Just get used to it; it's not like you're that far behind if you defend it, if you kill the first 1-2 marines then he backs off. If you do a pool first build you're likely to not lose any drones at all. Build a sunken for the vulture, you're building one anyways if they're going mech.

ZeKk

Sweden320 Posts

December 21 2009 03:00 GMT

#90

Well even if 8 rax cheese seems kinda imba to zerg, you can always count on that protoss doing the same thing to terran and wheter they fail or not they came out as the terran after the cheese namely: even or ahead with you

NrG.Bamboo

United States2756 Posts

December 21 2009 05:16 GMT

#91

The way I see it, cheese is simply a tactic or build that depends on simple chance. Cheese != all-in. Cheese is simply using "chance" to either put you ahead or put you behind.

An example of cheese would be, of course, 8rax. An example of an all-in TvZ would be proxy BBS. The difference is that if it is directly countered, there is little to no way the BBS player would win, while the 8rax player will probably be set behind.

On December 21 2009 12:00 ZeKk wrote:
Well even if 8 rax cheese seems kinda imba to zerg, you can always count on that protoss doing the same thing to terran and wheter they fail or not they came out as the terran after the cheese namely: even or ahead with you

Exactly, going something like DT rush -> quick expand -> 2base arbiters would be a normal build in my opinion. Cheese, yes, but far from all-in (that is, of course, if the Terran didn't 2fac vult or something and win right off the bat).

AzureEye

United States1360 Posts

December 21 2009 10:09 GMT

#92

On December 20 2009 03:00 AzureEye wrote:

Show nested quote +

Agree 100%

Its retarded how they have the option to use 8 rax as cheese (that is not risky at all) and can still come out ahead if it fails. Just shows that TvZ is the most imba matchup in SC. Even if Protoss gas stole the Terran, he still loses 100 minerals early on which delays his tech as well as the Terran's. In this case, you use the early barracks to get early factory which forces Zerg to get early sunken and you don't even lose your damn building because it fucking floats lol. So Terran's tech advances, while Zerg delays his tech. Is that even fair?

Grobyc

Canada18410 Posts

December 21 2009 10:16 GMT

#93

8rax != cheese

BBS, however, is though.

yarkO

Canada810 Posts

December 21 2009 10:52 GMT

#94

if you proxy your first* production facility as protoss or terran, it's cheesy.

(*: or 2nd if you count factory)

zerg cheese (imo) is all-in speedlings.

anything else is just aggressive or strategic play.

LxRogue

United States1415 Posts

December 21 2009 11:25 GMT

#95

Doesn't matter what you call it, but it's certainly a rush build.

8rax implies that you will bring 2-3 scvs and bunker rush, excepted only if the zerg went pool first. Really, the only more aggressive build TvZ is BBS, which is almost totally all in.

Stuslegend

Canada168 Posts

December 21 2009 12:37 GMT

#96

On December 19 2009 14:33 DefMatrixUltra wrote: There is no cheese.

but is there spoons?

ZERG_RUSSIAN

10417 Posts

December 21 2009 22:35 GMT

#97

On December 21 2009 14:16 Valentine wrote:
The way I see it, cheese is simply a tactic or build that depends on simple chance. Cheese != all-in. Cheese is simply using "chance" to either put you ahead or put you behind.

So 12 hatch in ZvZ is cheese? You might have something different in mind, but the definition you gave is retarded.

ZERG_RUSSIAN

10417 Posts

December 21 2009 22:37 GMT

#98

And where the fuck did everyone get off saying 8 rax is cheese? 8 rax is one of the STANDARD openings for terrans in TvZ, if you don't expect it 20% of the time you're a retard and if you can't defend it half the time you suck.

DreaM)XeRO

Korea (South)4667 Posts

December 21 2009 22:41 GMT

#99

8 rax is very strong vs the 12 hatch
.. the downside is that you might be sacrificing economy for the faster rax
however i dont think the 8 rax is cheese
you could be using it for the faster factory

8 rax coupled with the bunker rush could be counted as cheese
or a fast rine push.. idk

zergs have to learn how to deal with early rine pressure

old times sake

165 Posts

December 21 2009 22:55 GMT

#100

I always thought of cheese as "loser strategies" (not really in a derogatory way). Your earliest possible attacks come from builds that will be at a sharp disadvantage if they come up against a player who gets units just in time to stop those attacks. IMO these "stop cheese" builds tend to be the normal builds, and so the fast attack ones are the "cheese" ones. A third class hopes that they won't be cheesed, trying to gain an economic advantage on the "stop cheese" builds. If you do a normal build you aren't really screwed against these builds, just a little behind. But if you do an advantage build against a cheese you are going to get hurt bad, or the cheese is stupid and should never be done.

A. Your earliest effective attacks = "cheese" builds
B. Maximize your advantage vs A = "middle" builds, "normal" builds
C. Maximize your advantage vs C = hurt by A, stronger vs B

Rock paper scissors, but weighted. So what I mean by "loser strategies" is that class A, the "cheese", overall is weak and shouldn't win often and therefore, maybe nobody should do it. However, if there is zero threat of A, then nobody should really do B either. In fact, in a world where everybody is doing C, you should probably just do A, though... even though overall, it's a bad bet.

There are also variations of these, for instance "almost C" builds that seek to "almost tie" with A (cancel hatch ZvZ). There are "almost A" builds that seek to "almost beat" (advantage but not beat) C's, while "almost keeping up" with B. You can see how this works.

Anyways, I think of "cheese" as one of the three classes of extremes under which you can place advantages between BO's. They are the ones that gain the advantage early against certain builds and find themselves behind _strongly_ against others.

Maybe I haven't said it perfectly but I think I have shown you how I think of "cheese," but others may define it differently.

edit: Oh, so in this framework, if what you say is correct, 8 rax is closer to a "B"; it's an "almost B", slightly behind a straight up advantage-vs-cheese maximizer, in order to have a "partial A" (punish C but not as fully as a maximal cheese, maximal A). If others say that 8 rax loses more hardcore then I would count it as a pure "cheese", but you don't seem to think this at all... on the other hand, something that hurts a lot more when it fails would be Proxy BBS.