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On December 25 2009 21:16 Lozzo.cu wrote:
Flash's 8 rax is NOT cheese.
it was perfectly positioned and timed against the overlord, and while jd is supply stuck (but not really suffering from it other than scouting information) Flash goes in for the kill.
even if the bunker failed flash is still on a base with same number of scvs. not all-in at all.
Proxy barracks, bunker rush, pulling four scvs. If that isn't cheese, then what is?
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On December 25 2009 21:41 De4ngus wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2009 21:16 Lozzo.cu wrote:
Flash's 8 rax is NOT cheese.
it was perfectly positioned and timed against the overlord, and while jd is supply stuck (but not really suffering from it other than scouting information) Flash goes in for the kill.
even if the bunker failed flash is still on a base with same number of scvs. not all-in at all. Proxy barracks, bunker rush, pulling four scvs. If that isn't cheese, then what is?
Cheese is some sort of attack you commit to where you are blindly hoping to do a lot of damage through surprise and if you fail, you generally lose. In this case, the only thing Flash blindly committed to was his proxy rax. The rax was barely outside of his nat. He would hardly lose if he failed to do damage with it. He didn't commit to the attack until after he killed the overlord. To me, his attack seemed more like a timing attack than a cheese rush.
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On December 25 2009 21:41 De4ngus wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2009 21:16 Lozzo.cu wrote:
Flash's 8 rax is NOT cheese.
it was perfectly positioned and timed against the overlord, and while jd is supply stuck (but not really suffering from it other than scouting information) Flash goes in for the kill.
even if the bunker failed flash is still on a base with same number of scvs. not all-in at all. Proxy barracks, bunker rush, pulling four scvs. If that isn't cheese, then what is?
4 pool
rax outside his base
pulling 8 scvs
etc
Flash put a rax outside HIS OWN main, got the overlord (all planned), scouted the 12 hatch and went for the bunker. If Jaedong had gone pool first Flash could have taken the overlord anyway, floated the rax back into his main (its v close) while gassing for tech. He would have been at least even with Jaedong, prob ahead because of the OL snipe.
In other words, his build doesn't rely on killing drones or the main to get an advantage or stay even.
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On December 25 2009 21:41 De4ngus wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2009 21:16 Lozzo.cu wrote:
Flash's 8 rax is NOT cheese.
it was perfectly positioned and timed against the overlord, and while jd is supply stuck (but not really suffering from it other than scouting information) Flash goes in for the kill.
even if the bunker failed flash is still on a base with same number of scvs. not all-in at all. Proxy barracks, bunker rush, pulling four scvs. If that isn't cheese, then what is?
cheese is something noobs do to other noobs. at S class progaming what flash did is a carefully thought out early attack. you and especially those who are sour at losing to "cheese" seem to think thatjust about anybody can do what FLASH did to the BEST ZERG IN THE HISTORY OF PROGAMING and the DEFENDING CHAMPION JAEDONG at the RO8 of the 2009 EVER OSL,
i mean, it's "cheese" after all.
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On December 25 2009 21:54 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2009 21:41 De4ngus wrote:On December 25 2009 21:16 Lozzo.cu wrote:
Flash's 8 rax is NOT cheese.
it was perfectly positioned and timed against the overlord, and while jd is supply stuck (but not really suffering from it other than scouting information) Flash goes in for the kill.
even if the bunker failed flash is still on a base with same number of scvs. not all-in at all. Proxy barracks, bunker rush, pulling four scvs. If that isn't cheese, then what is? Cheese is some sort of attack you commit to where you are blindly hoping to do a lot of damage through surprise and if you fail, you generally lose. In this case, the only thing Flash blindly committed to was his proxy rax. The rax was barely outside of his nat. He would hardly lose if he failed to do damage with it. He didn't commit to the attack until after he killed the overlord. To me, his attack seemed more like a timing attack than a cheese rush.
Okay, this makes sense.
On December 25 2009 22:55 mmgoose wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2009 21:41 De4ngus wrote:On December 25 2009 21:16 Lozzo.cu wrote:
Flash's 8 rax is NOT cheese.
it was perfectly positioned and timed against the overlord, and while jd is supply stuck (but not really suffering from it other than scouting information) Flash goes in for the kill.
even if the bunker failed flash is still on a base with same number of scvs. not all-in at all. Proxy barracks, bunker rush, pulling four scvs. If that isn't cheese, then what is? cheese is something noobs do to other noobs. at S class progaming what flash did is a carefully thought out early attack. you and especially those who are sour at losing to "cheese" seem to think thatjust about anybody can do what FLASH did to the BEST ZERG IN THE HISTORY OF PROGAMING and the DEFENDING CHAMPION JAEDONG at the RO8 of the 2009 EVER OSL, i mean, it's "cheese" after all.
This one, on the other hand..... I have no clue, lol.
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The reason I hate 8rax is because it's not cheese... no matter what the Zerg does Terran generally ends up ahead or at least even.
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I dunno how you guys can say that wasn't cheese from Flash, it fucked Jaedong up, was easy to do and didn't even set him far behind, therefore it is very cheese!
I'd say cheese is something that is easy to do but difficult to counter and can happen at any point in the game, if it doesn't set someone far back then it is even more cheese.
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On December 25 2009 21:54 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2009 21:41 De4ngus wrote:On December 25 2009 21:16 Lozzo.cu wrote:
Flash's 8 rax is NOT cheese.
it was perfectly positioned and timed against the overlord, and while jd is supply stuck (but not really suffering from it other than scouting information) Flash goes in for the kill.
even if the bunker failed flash is still on a base with same number of scvs. not all-in at all. Proxy barracks, bunker rush, pulling four scvs. If that isn't cheese, then what is? Cheese is some sort of attack you commit to where you are blindly hoping to do a lot of damage through surprise and if you fail, you generally lose. In this case, the only thing Flash blindly committed to was his proxy rax. The rax was barely outside of his nat. He would hardly lose if he failed to do damage with it. He didn't commit to the attack until after he killed the overlord. To me, his attack seemed more like a timing attack than a cheese rush.
Thats a horrible definition of Cheese. Cheese should not be determined by how all-in it is. There are different types of cheese: hydra cannon break, 3 hatch ling all-in, 5 pool, Bio Rush TvP, etc that have different amounts of all-in. And since these are all cheese, you can't determine whats different just by the riskiness of it.
Cheese is simply nonstandard play, just because it wasn't risky doesn't mean its not cheese. Terran Cheese versus Zerg is not risky at all and can do potential massive damage because TvZ is imbalanced, so therefore, that does not mean 8 rax bunker rush does not qualify as cheese. Its just the imbalance of the matchup, thats all
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On December 25 2009 22:55 mmgoose wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2009 21:41 De4ngus wrote:On December 25 2009 21:16 Lozzo.cu wrote:
Flash's 8 rax is NOT cheese.
it was perfectly positioned and timed against the overlord, and while jd is supply stuck (but not really suffering from it other than scouting information) Flash goes in for the kill.
even if the bunker failed flash is still on a base with same number of scvs. not all-in at all. Proxy barracks, bunker rush, pulling four scvs. If that isn't cheese, then what is?
cheese is something noobs do to other noobs. at S class progaming what flash did is a carefully thought out early attack. you and especially those who are sour at losing to "cheese" seem to think thatjust about anybody can do what FLASH did to the BEST ZERG IN THE HISTORY OF PROGAMING and the DEFENDING CHAMPION JAEDONG at the RO8 of the 2009 EVER OSL, i mean, it's "cheese" after all.
Wtf? Stopped reading after the 1st sentence. Worst post ever
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Way too many people arguing about what cheese is without a primary source. Research it and maybe people will stop saying you're wrong.
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I can't believe we've arrived at the point when people 8 proxy rax into bunker rush with pulled SCVs not cheese, and 12 hatch 11 pool a greedy build.
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On December 26 2009 05:25 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I can't believe we've arrived at the point when people 8 proxy rax into bunker rush with pulled SCVs not cheese, and 12 hatch 11 pool a greedy build.
7 proxy rax iirc
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United States47024 Posts
On December 26 2009 02:53 dasanivan wrote:
Way too many people arguing about what cheese is without a primary source. Research it and maybe people will stop saying you're wrong.
I think part of it is that "cheese" only really has a stigma against it outside Korea. Notice that the equivalent term in progamer interviews is translated as "strategic play". That doesn't have the same bad connotations.
On December 26 2009 05:25 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I can't believe we've arrived at the point when people 8 proxy rax into bunker rush with pulled SCVs not cheese, and 12 hatch 11 pool a greedy build.
IMO the 7rax in and of itself is not cheese. It's the pulled SCVs and bunker rush that turned it into a cheese.
That's really where the disagreement is, I think. The main argument for it not being cheese is that you can transition from a 7rax into a wall-in and tech, and come out even. The thing is, once you pull the SCVs and the bunker goes up, you're cheesing, no other real way to put it. When your SCVs are at his base, and the bunker is building, that has no real "transition".
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On December 26 2009 02:31 AzureEye wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2009 22:55 mmgoose wrote:On December 25 2009 21:41 De4ngus wrote:On December 25 2009 21:16 Lozzo.cu wrote:
Flash's 8 rax is NOT cheese.
it was perfectly positioned and timed against the overlord, and while jd is supply stuck (but not really suffering from it other than scouting information) Flash goes in for the kill.
even if the bunker failed flash is still on a base with same number of scvs. not all-in at all. Proxy barracks, bunker rush, pulling four scvs. If that isn't cheese, then what is?
cheese is something noobs do to other noobs. at S class progaming what flash did is a carefully thought out early attack. you and especially those who are sour at losing to "cheese" seem to think thatjust about anybody can do what FLASH did to the BEST ZERG IN THE HISTORY OF PROGAMING and the DEFENDING CHAMPION JAEDONG at the RO8 of the 2009 EVER OSL, i mean, it's "cheese" after all. Wtf? Stopped reading after the 1st sentence. Worst post ever
well that's the thing isn't it. it's "cheese" regardless of who executes it. be it boxer, or d+ iccup noobs. it's SO EASY TO DO, you don't have to think about resource timing, unit movement and the overall success rate.
let us all comfort ourselves that jaedong is the better player regardless of how he lost because he got "cheesed" out of the osl. boo hoo.
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On December 26 2009 10:09 mmgoose wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2009 02:31 AzureEye wrote:On December 25 2009 22:55 mmgoose wrote:On December 25 2009 21:41 De4ngus wrote:On December 25 2009 21:16 Lozzo.cu wrote:
Flash's 8 rax is NOT cheese.
it was perfectly positioned and timed against the overlord, and while jd is supply stuck (but not really suffering from it other than scouting information) Flash goes in for the kill.
even if the bunker failed flash is still on a base with same number of scvs. not all-in at all. Proxy barracks, bunker rush, pulling four scvs. If that isn't cheese, then what is?
cheese is something noobs do to other noobs. at S class progaming what flash did is a carefully thought out early attack. you and especially those who are sour at losing to "cheese" seem to think thatjust about anybody can do what FLASH did to the BEST ZERG IN THE HISTORY OF PROGAMING and the DEFENDING CHAMPION JAEDONG at the RO8 of the 2009 EVER OSL, i mean, it's "cheese" after all. Wtf? Stopped reading after the 1st sentence. Worst post ever well that's the thing isn't it. it's "cheese" regardless of who executes it. be it boxer, or d+ iccup noobs. it's SO EASY TO DO, you don't have to think about resource timing, unit movement and the overall success rate. let us all comfort ourselves that jaedong is the better player regardless of how he lost because he got "cheesed" out of the osl. boo hoo.
Jaedong lost because TvZ is imbalanced. Simple as that. And lets not forget Flash is a monster player
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For those of you who are still saying that Flash's "8rax"(which was actually 7 rax) was not cheese (when he cut SCVs to get the early rax, which he proxied, hoping that Jaedong went for something like a 12 hatch), well, it was cheese, and that's all there is to it. Maybe if he had gone 8rax into a factory or something, (and DIDNT pull SCVs for the kill), then people wouldnt be kicking and screaming cheese, but what Flash did was.
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On December 26 2009 05:32 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2009 02:53 dasanivan wrote:
Way too many people arguing about what cheese is without a primary source. Research it and maybe people will stop saying you're wrong. I think part of it is that "cheese" only really has a stigma against it outside Korea. Notice that the equivalent term in progamer interviews is translated as "strategic play". That doesn't have the same bad connotations. Show nested quote +On December 26 2009 05:25 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I can't believe we've arrived at the point when people 8 proxy rax into bunker rush with pulled SCVs not cheese, and 12 hatch 11 pool a greedy build. IMO the 7rax in and of itself is not cheese. It's the pulled SCVs and bunker rush that turned it into a cheese. That's really where the disagreement is, I think. The main argument for it not being cheese is that you can transition from a 7rax into a wall-in and tech, and come out even. The thing is, once you pull the SCVs and the bunker goes up, you're cheesing, no other real way to put it. When your SCVs are at his base, and the bunker is building, that has no real "transition".
of course there is, a bunker rush forces a trade, getting ovies sniped forces you to use up larva and extra minerals. in order to destroy the bunker you are forced to make sunkens, pull drones and make extra lings. which of course delays everything giving you time to get medics.
on hbr and neo hbr you have a safety feature of an extremely narrow easily defensible choke. being a two player map makes it usable and should've been given a higher probability of being used on you.
so no. it wasn't cheese or an all-in.
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On December 26 2009 10:38 AzureEye wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2009 10:09 mmgoose wrote:On December 26 2009 02:31 AzureEye wrote:On December 25 2009 22:55 mmgoose wrote:On December 25 2009 21:41 De4ngus wrote:On December 25 2009 21:16 Lozzo.cu wrote:
Flash's 8 rax is NOT cheese.
it was perfectly positioned and timed against the overlord, and while jd is supply stuck (but not really suffering from it other than scouting information) Flash goes in for the kill.
even if the bunker failed flash is still on a base with same number of scvs. not all-in at all. Proxy barracks, bunker rush, pulling four scvs. If that isn't cheese, then what is?
cheese is something noobs do to other noobs. at S class progaming what flash did is a carefully thought out early attack. you and especially those who are sour at losing to "cheese" seem to think thatjust about anybody can do what FLASH did to the BEST ZERG IN THE HISTORY OF PROGAMING and the DEFENDING CHAMPION JAEDONG at the RO8 of the 2009 EVER OSL, i mean, it's "cheese" after all. Wtf? Stopped reading after the 1st sentence. Worst post ever well that's the thing isn't it. it's "cheese" regardless of who executes it. be it boxer, or d+ iccup noobs. it's SO EASY TO DO, you don't have to think about resource timing, unit movement and the overall success rate. let us all comfort ourselves that jaedong is the better player regardless of how he lost because he got "cheesed" out of the osl. boo hoo. Jaedong lost because TvZ is imbalanced. Simple as that. And lets not forget Flash is a monster player
Dude, what are you smoking?
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On December 26 2009 10:39 NeCroPoTeNce wrote:
For those of you who are still saying that Flash's "8rax"(which was actually 7 rax) was not cheese (when he cut SCVs to get the early rax, which he proxied, hoping that Jaedong went for something like a 12 hatch), well, it was cheese, and that's all there is to it. Maybe if he had gone 8rax into a factory or something, (and DIDNT pull SCVs for the kill), then people wouldnt be kicking and screaming cheese, but what Flash did was.
no to execute that bunker rush you can't transition into mech, it's just not viable. it's always medics, which you can easily get provided the rush was somewhat successful.
plus, it wasn't even a proxy, it was nowhere near the middle let alone jaedong's nat. just a forward position just outside of ovie sight.
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On December 26 2009 02:30 AzureEye wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2009 21:54 Qatol wrote:On December 25 2009 21:41 De4ngus wrote:On December 25 2009 21:16 Lozzo.cu wrote:
Flash's 8 rax is NOT cheese.
it was perfectly positioned and timed against the overlord, and while jd is supply stuck (but not really suffering from it other than scouting information) Flash goes in for the kill.
even if the bunker failed flash is still on a base with same number of scvs. not all-in at all. Proxy barracks, bunker rush, pulling four scvs. If that isn't cheese, then what is? Cheese is some sort of attack you commit to where you are blindly hoping to do a lot of damage through surprise and if you fail, you generally lose. In this case, the only thing Flash blindly committed to was his proxy rax. The rax was barely outside of his nat. He would hardly lose if he failed to do damage with it. He didn't commit to the attack until after he killed the overlord. To me, his attack seemed more like a timing attack than a cheese rush. Thats a horrible definition of Cheese. Cheese should not be determined by how all-in it is. There are different types of cheese: hydra cannon break, 3 hatch ling all-in, 5 pool, Bio Rush TvP, etc that have different amounts of all-in. And since these are all cheese, you can't determine whats different just by the riskiness of it. Cheese is simply nonstandard play, just because it wasn't risky doesn't mean its not cheese. Terran Cheese versus Zerg is not risky at all and can do potential massive damage because TvZ is imbalanced, so therefore, that does not mean 8 rax bunker rush does not qualify as cheese. Its just the imbalance of the matchup, thats all
I would say less than 5% of the entire population of Teamliquid would agree with you on that. That's completely ridiculous to say that cheese is anything nonstandard. That's like saying Corsair/Reaver is cheese, or skipping a corsair after FE is cheese, or something of that sort.
In fact, I (personally) would say he had the BEST definition of cheese seen so far. And Flash's build was not cheese whatsoever, it didn't matter what Jaedong's buildorder was - Flash would have been able to adapt no matter what, unless Jaedong did something alone the line of 4 pooling (5 pool vs Terran on HBR would be retarded). Proxy rax into mech is a very standard build order - there's no reason not to do that in fact.
They don't really have "different amounts" of all-in. Does that make sense? It's ALL-IN. That's key. If that SPECIFIC attack doesn't accomplish it's goal - you LOSE. If 3 hatch all-in ling doesn't work - you LOSE. Simple. If Bio Rush TvP doesn't work - you're going to LOSE. If hydra cannon break doesn't end up working - you LOSE. Hence the definition of "all-in."
8 Rax was not all-in whatsoever, as stated, because he carefully calculated where the overlord would be, so he would have had an overlord snipe to delay lings if he decided to go pool first anyways. Even if he made the 6 lings before the overlord snipe - Flash would have two marines he could send back to his main (after sniping the overlord) and build a bunker (or just block with SCVs) and transition into mech play since the travel distance for lings is so long on HBR.
The build is so smart and precise by Flash 8 rax might even become STANDARD on HBR, or Zergs will have to change their OL scouting path, or something will end up changing. It's the exact same concept as why Zergs almost never 12 hatch on Destination vs Protoss simply because Protoss will just 14 Nexus as a result and be economically ahead - while at the same time having a very easy time blocking the hatchery placement.
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