i would Consider something like 8 rax a standard opening now because of the fact that its kinda saying 9 pool is a cheese in a way. you are applying pressure but not killing the zerg if he hatch. the same for zerg if he 9 pool and attacks you. he is also applying that pressure and there is a minimal chance for either build to win.
Even if it was "cheese" who cares? The point of the game is to win. There is no other criteria for success (perhaps "fun" but it's more fun if you win right?).
Otoh, unless it's an all-in, I wouldn't call it cheese. Cheese is generally something that if countered, you're screwed. In this case you are just applying early pressure to disrupt and then going for a solid follow up. Not cheese, IMO. Oh, and I'm a zerg player too, so I'm trying not to speak with bias.
No build is truly cheese in fact really. I just watched a rep from TL's rep section where Oystein goes 6 pool and the game ends up being a close 40+ minute match.
The reason why I think it's silly to call 8 rax cheese is because it's not allin at all really.
I don't think this is cheese. 8BBS is, but this is more of just utilizing every building to their max efficiency. Obviously, mech doesn't require marines, so what's the point of having that barrack sitting in your base?
Its hard to say what cheese really is... as Chill said in as he closed a thread in the recent past. I wouldn't say its cheese until you make it an all-in like pulling scvs like Stylish said.
But the fact that Terran can open up 8 rax and fail the rush and still come out ahead makes some Zerg player mad at the imbalance. You can easily transition to mech and lift off the rax so you don't even lose your building lol. Just the fact that its not risky at all and its great non-standard opening, used to make me more pissed off when I used to play Zerg
I'm going to have to say that if proxy'd it's cheese because if they pool first you lose the game hands down. If you do 8 rax in base it's not really cheese. I also feel that if you do it on a 4 player map it's fairly cheesy since you need to scout super early to make it guaranteed effective. It has happened to me as zerg on python and honestly I do feel that it is cheese there since if they pool first and you're streaming rines and have 2 scvs out you are screwed.
Who cares if it's cheese? Pointless classification. Everyone sets a different bar for the level of early aggression considered "standard", and they're all arbitrary and absurdly stupid in a game of strategy where the norm is always changing to defy what is expected.
I concur with pretty much everyone here. 8 Rax by itself isn't cheese. It's a more aggressive opening then your standard 10 rax, doesn't make it cheese. Funny thing is they yell at terrans for turtling, and then when they do an aggressive opening its cheese. You can make an 8 rax into cheese tho ... smthn like bbs with massive scv pulling I'd consider cheese. I'm not sure I would even consider a standard 8 rax bunker rush with an scv or 2 cheese anymore. How else is terran supposed to punish the other races for 12 pool/12 nexus.
I would suppose it would have to do with where you build the rax. If it's in a proxy location it would be hard to defend if your initial attack doesn't work, but if you build it in your base it's not cheese at all.
8 rax is a build order, not a cheese. Cheese is something that you can't recover from if it fails. 8 rax you can transition to mech or fe carrying on the game from there.
1. It's not cheese. 2. It's pretty standard. 3. It's not "more standard" than it is because it's more easily defended than you might think (at least on most maps).
On December 19 2009 16:05 SkepTicAL wrote: 8 rax is a build order, not a cheese. Cheese is something that you can't recover from if it fails. 8 rax you can transition to mech or fe carrying on the game from there.
That's not a very good definition. It's hard to recover from anything if it fails. I would consider cheese more something that would never work if your opponent knew it was coming.
On December 19 2009 16:05 SkepTicAL wrote: 8 rax is a build order, not a cheese. Cheese is something that you can't recover from if it fails. 8 rax you can transition to mech or fe carrying on the game from there.
That's not a very good definition. It's hard to recover from anything if it fails. I would consider cheese more something that would never work if your opponent knew it was coming.
Thats not true either then lol, you can see a cannon rush coming and still lose. Cheese is something completely all-in imo, bunker rush(unless you send every worker you have) isn't all-in.
Well, obviously it's "knew it was coming before it's too late". If you know beforehand you are gonna get cannon rushed there really isn't any reason it should work
On December 19 2009 16:05 SkepTicAL wrote: 8 rax is a build order, not a cheese. Cheese is something that you can't recover from if it fails. 8 rax you can transition to mech or fe carrying on the game from there.
which means the build Skyhigh did vs Jaedong on Destination was not cheesy (floating hidden rax into main)?
if zerg goes 9 pool or even overpool you basically lose as a terran player, which is why it is considered cheese; you are assuming the zerg 12hatches without even scouting which makes it mostly a luck based build and with the recent influx of 8rax / proxy factory based builds because fantasy loves them overpool is becoming more common anyway
Everything that can help you win the game is cheese, and if you don't cheese, "you win by doing retarded shit" as IdrA said. Damn you with all these threads...
SRSLY: 8 Rax is a great opening that puts you in an advantage and you can transition into anything. It is like saying 3 hatch spire, 5 hatch hydra is a cheese, because it is easy executable and wins you a lot of games
On December 19 2009 17:45 unSpeake wrote: if zerg goes 9 pool or even overpool you basically lose as a terran player, which is why it is considered cheese; you are assuming the zerg 12hatches without even scouting which makes it mostly a luck based build and with the recent influx of 8rax / proxy factory based builds because fantasy loves them overpool is becoming more common anyway
Yeah, cuz zergs go 9/Overpool every game... The new maps have big rush distances ('cept Match Point) so even if the Zerg opens with early pool and you open 8 rax, you can stil defend pretty easily
On December 19 2009 18:16 Mortician wrote: Everything that can help you win the game is cheese, and if you don't cheese, "you win by doing retarded shit" as IdrA said. Damn you with all these threads...
SRSLY: 8 Rax is a great opening that puts you in an advantage and you can transition into anything. It is like saying 3 hatch spire, 5 hatch hydra is a cheese, because it is easy executable and wins you a lot of games
On December 19 2009 17:45 unSpeake wrote: if zerg goes 9 pool or even overpool you basically lose as a terran player, which is why it is considered cheese; you are assuming the zerg 12hatches without even scouting which makes it mostly a luck based build and with the recent influx of 8rax / proxy factory based builds because fantasy loves them overpool is becoming more common anyway
Yeah, cuz zergs go 9/Overpool every game... The new maps have big rush distances ('cept Match Point) so even if the Zerg opens with early pool and you open 8 rax, you can stil defend pretty easily
If a zerg goes 9pool/overpool vs 8 rax it isn't even about defending. Your tech is severely delayed (and you are forced to go mech if you proxy the 8 rax) and have no real option of pressuring the zerg for a good amount of time after that since you need to wall-in and you also have your tech delayed a bunch. On the flip side, zerg can effectively deny scouting if they clear the initial 2-3 rines/scvs out of the way since the terran is forced to wall-in. A lot of the maps out right now are prime meat for proxy 8 raxing (desti, HBR, outsider) which means overpool opening is much more viable (not that it isn't always)
if u put at at ur natural at like othello or andromeda its not cheese, ur in ok shape if they find it out or open 9pool
if u put it on the side of the enemy bridges on destination then yes its cheese, cause if they scout it its practically gg
cheese is just a sloppy term for making decisions without intel. but then ofcourse we stretch this far how we like it and thats why we end up arguing asking if 8rax is cheese 12hatch without scouting is also cheese, but when its on the economical side its something we call abusive
the key point to understand is that ur goal is to win the game, it doesnt matter how u do it. if a zerg goes 12hatch in the first game against me without scouting then i might aswell just bbs in the next game and own him hard, and then 3rd game he opens 9pool, and the list goes on..
It depends on the intent. If it's aggressive with a few SCVs with an intent to transition into another followup I could see it not being cheese. If it's proxied with a huge amount of SCVs pulled it is definitely cheese by the standard definition.
Zergs get MAD at this and its understandable , its such a gay build to play vs , you lose right away or you are more or less behind anyways if u defend very well ( which is really hard and a bit random at times ) ...... this is unfair and thus frustrates as hell .
On December 19 2009 18:16 Mortician wrote: Everything that can help you win the game is cheese, and if you don't cheese, "you win by doing retarded shit" as IdrA said. Damn you with all these threads...
SRSLY: 8 Rax is a great opening that puts you in an advantage and you can transition into anything. It is like saying 3 hatch spire, 5 hatch hydra is a cheese, because it is easy executable and wins you a lot of games
On December 19 2009 17:45 unSpeake wrote: if zerg goes 9 pool or even overpool you basically lose as a terran player, which is why it is considered cheese; you are assuming the zerg 12hatches without even scouting which makes it mostly a luck based build and with the recent influx of 8rax / proxy factory based builds because fantasy loves them overpool is becoming more common anyway
Yeah, cuz zergs go 9/Overpool every game... The new maps have big rush distances ('cept Match Point) so even if the Zerg opens with early pool and you open 8 rax, you can stil defend pretty easily
If a zerg goes 9pool/overpool vs 8 rax it isn't even about defending. Your tech is severely delayed (and you are forced to go mech if you proxy the 8 rax) and have no real option of pressuring the zerg for a good amount of time after that since you need to wall-in and you also have your tech delayed a bunch. On the flip side, zerg can effectively deny scouting if they clear the initial 2-3 rines/scvs out of the way since the terran is forced to wall-in. A lot of the maps out right now are prime meat for proxy 8 raxing (desti, HBR, outsider) which means overpool opening is much more viable (not that it isn't always)
You can count the times zerg opened with an early pool that wasn't versus Flash or the zerg wasn't Kwanro. It's like once in a 20 or 30 games. I know on ladder it is more often, but still, i rarely see zergs going pool first if it isn't Python, where you can scout the opponent fast and he can't make a ling tigh wall without a Fact.
Not to mention that you have to scout with 8th drone or even 7th to see it coming in time to put an early pool. And if you blindly go 9 pool/overpool, especially with gas, and don't do ANY damage, you are pretty much fucked.
On December 19 2009 22:35 UFO wrote: Zergs get MAD at this and its understandable , its such a gay build to play vs , you lose right away or you are more or less behind anyways if u defend very well ( which is really hard and a bit random at times ) ...... this is unfair and thus frustrates as hell .
Isn`t a cheeze tho.
That's what I've been trying to say. Mech is gay, it is easier than bio and will win you more games JUST LIKE THAT ZVP BUILD.
What makes 8 rax more "imbalanced" are 2 player maps. Zerg has to deal with that gay ebay on natural shit. "oh just go overpool man!". Yeah right, then you are playing on destination and he just makes a perfect wall goes mech and you just made the 6 more useless lings ever, also wont be prepared on time to face a speed vulture rush. So: the bo is not cheese, some maps are just imba. (destination) :D
8rax is cheese if you bunker rush with like 8 SCVs and so on. 8rax isn't cheese if you do it into mech and do the bunker rush with like 1-2 marines and 2 or so SCVs.
On December 19 2009 14:33 DefMatrixUltra wrote: It wins the game or it doesn't. There is no cheese.
And there is no spoon.
Of course there's such a thing as cheese. 4pool, BBS, Horror Gate and the such are tactics that anyone who doesn't hard-counter them and goes for a standard econ build will just die, yet if countered usually spell doom for the person trying them.
8rax is the Terran 9pool. 8rax bunker rush is 9pool speed. Those are legitimate tactics that can be countered with a solid build, can be transitioned out of into a standard game.
On December 19 2009 23:57 Tropics wrote: It's a build that should be all in but isn't
you shouldn't be able to cut that much early on for units and be safe even if you get destroyed, damn it
9pool speed should leave you economically crippled and unable to have a mid-game dammit.
On December 19 2009 13:26 Jonoman92 wrote: No build is truly cheese in fact really. I just watched a rep from TL's rep section where Oystein goes 6 pool and the game ends up being a close 40+ minute match.
The reason why I think it's silly to call 8 rax cheese is because it's not allin at all really.
Well 5pool is kinda cheesy, I mean if your opponent makes a gate first you pretty much auto lose unless he fucks up. However its a pretty good build if your certain your opponent will FE (for example on maps like Medusa where there really ain`t any other choice) and you only make 6lings and transitions straight into a normal game after that.
I always considered cheese, builds you cant recover from if they fail, for example 2hatch hydra breaks, either you win the game there or if the toss made cannons you lose.
On December 19 2009 16:25 Weryeery wrote: 8 rax is not a cheese. its just an illustration of the imbalance of the match up.
Its a game winning opening if its not defended properly, and even if its perfectly defended you're still ahead.
So dont be suprised if some Z players get pissed at you if you use 8 rax
Agree 100%
Its retarded how they have the option to use 8 rax as cheese (that is not risky at all) and can still come out ahead if it fails. Just shows that TvZ is the most imba matchup in SC. Even if Protoss gas stole the Terran, he still loses 100 minerals early on which delays his tech as well as the Terran's. In this case, you use the early barracks to get early factory which forces Zerg to get early sunken and you don't even lose your damn building because it fucking floats lol. So Terran's tech advances, while Zerg delays his tech. Is that even fair?
On December 20 2009 02:17 Biff The Understudy wrote: Cheese is a build where you don't think behind: you want to win straight away and if opponent defends you are fucked. Period.
BBS in TvT is a cheese, because it has no future. 8rax into mech cannot be a cheese.
Cheese should not be defined about how risky it is. Because 8 rax can be a decent threat to a Zerg early game and its not risky but its non-standard.
I think Cheese should be defined as something people wouldn't do on a standard basis.
Just because 8 rax is not risky just shows TvZ is imba matchup, 8 rax SHOULD have been risky if it fails
Yeah, like ^he said, it's cheese if you pull a bunch of SCVs for some sort of early kill, but if you just do it to put a little bit of pressure on, and maybe get some drone kills, it's not really cheese, but that's why I usually open 9 pool into 2 or 3 hatch, because it's a decent counter to it, and if you can kill off the rallied rines, the terran is screwed (unless they wall of something).
I guess the thing about this is that the Terran can proxy 8rax, bring like 8 SCVs to the natural, and even if the Z somehow fights it off making like 2 sunkens and a crapton of lings, the T just brings his SCVs back home and he's ahead. Fair.
On December 19 2009 16:05 SkepTicAL wrote: 8 rax is a build order, not a cheese. Cheese is something that you can't recover from if it fails. 8 rax you can transition to mech or fe carrying on the game from there.
That's not a very good definition. It's hard to recover from anything if it fails. I would consider cheese more something that would never work if your opponent knew it was coming.
Thats not true either then lol, you can see a cannon rush coming and still lose. Cheese is something completely all-in imo, bunker rush(unless you send every worker you have) isn't all-in.
No, I mean if hypothetically you knew they were gonna do it before, then they have NO chance of succeeding.
my definition of cheese is something that will set you behind if you dont do economic damage. 8 rax is like half-cheese. with starcraft being such a macro game these days, based around mechanics, one base builds like sparks terran or 1 gate tech pvz seem cheesy anymore
On December 19 2009 16:05 SkepTicAL wrote: 8 rax is a build order, not a cheese. Cheese is something that you can't recover from if it fails. 8 rax you can transition to mech or fe carrying on the game from there.
That's not a very good definition. It's hard to recover from anything if it fails. I would consider cheese more something that would never work if your opponent knew it was coming.
Ok so if you intend to do a probe drop on a terrans SCV's and you don't lose the shuttle but you lose 2 probes 30 minutes in game its hard to recover from that?
On December 19 2009 16:05 SkepTicAL wrote: 8 rax is a build order, not a cheese. Cheese is something that you can't recover from if it fails. 8 rax you can transition to mech or fe carrying on the game from there.
That's not a very good definition. It's hard to recover from anything if it fails. I would consider cheese more something that would never work if your opponent knew it was coming.
Ok so if you intend to do a probe drop on a terrans SCV's and you don't lose the shuttle but you lose 2 probes 30 minutes in game its hard to recover from that?
Ask iris, he failed an SCV drop on savior and then lost the game.
On December 20 2009 02:17 Biff The Understudy wrote: Cheese is a build where you don't think behind: you want to win straight away and if opponent defends you are fucked. Period.
BBS in TvT is a cheese, because it has no future. 8rax into mech cannot be a cheese.
Cheese should not be defined about how risky it is. Because 8 rax can be a decent threat to a Zerg early game and its not risky but its non-standard.
I think Cheese should be defined as something people wouldn't do on a standard basis.
Just because 8 rax is not risky just shows TvZ is imba matchup, 8 rax SHOULD have been risky if it fails
Aren't you the guy who was claiming PvT was hard? Do you have a vendetta against Terran players or something?
Anyways, I generally don't like opening 8 rax because I find that it's just not a fun build. Sure it might win games but it's still kind of... boring.
I like playing against 8 rax the few times I play Zerg because I feel awesome when I kill that first marine with just drones
Slight offtopic here. On 2 player maps, why do you not got 8rax every time you open mech? I have such a hard time seeing how any other build can be better than this when going mech, since it's so hard to stop without losing a drone or two and much mining time. And as others have pointed out, it has the potential to end the game (even Jaedong loses to this -.-, even on 3 player maps), while it has a relatively little downside economically. Yes, I know it's shit compared to 1 rax shit in econ, but the ammount you fuckup the zerg, I think it's completely worth it, plus some more. So, any answer why every terran opening mech doesn't do it with 8 rax?
On December 21 2009 02:55 Papvin wrote: Slight offtopic here. On 2 player maps, why do you not got 8rax every time you open mech? I have such a hard time seeing how any other build can be better than this when going mech, since it's so hard to stop without losing a drone or two and much mining time. And as others have pointed out, it has the potential to end the game (even Jaedong loses to this -.-, even on 3 player maps), while it has a relatively little downside economically. Yes, I know it's shit compared to 1 rax shit in econ, but the ammount you fuckup the zerg, I think it's completely worth it, plus some more. So, any answer why every terran opening mech doesn't do it with 8 rax?
I can see going 8rax on two player maps, but not every single time. When you say losing a drone, are you sending the first marine and an scv to kill it? (faking a bunker and then killing the drones). Even if you cancel the bunker, I feel that the zerg would still come out ahead.
Umm, for a while, I got sick of losing to 5 pool or 9 pools speed, so I started going for a 9 BBS build, just to get enough marines out to survive that early rush, and if they don't rush, I can put some pressure on them to try to equalize the game.
I got flak from opponents for thinking it was cheesy whenever I won..... Oddly enough, I didn't try for some kind of all-in build, and I ended up having late gas, and a late expansion because of it. It was worse for me than it was for them.....
Honestly, some players are really, really dumb. They think that any non-standard play is cheesy. Mine put me at a disadvantage, yet apparently it was "cheesy"..... Should I go for a 2 CC before rax build, so I don't rush and get called for a "cheesy build"?
Just ignore people like that. Let them think that they play like a pro-gamer, because they try to imitate them, when in reality, those kinds of players suck.
if 8 rax isnt cheese. then i hope i never hear you cry about some protoss who goes proxy gate zealot harass into dt into arbiter. but i am sure you QQ all day about protoss
If cheese is defined as something that depends more on surprise than execution to determine its effectiveness, then 8 rax isn't a cheese anymore than 9 pool is a cheese. They're both aggressive builds that sacrifice economy and/or tech, and can easily transition to midgame.
Also 8 rax is really great versus REAL cheese such as 4/5/6 pool.
On December 21 2009 11:42 ArvickHero wrote: I say we stop using the word "cheese" and start using the phrase "strategic play" like the Koreans to describe any non-management type of strategy.
Yeah, but cheese rolls off the tongue so much better and is easier to yell (and if you're embarassed about SC then people just think you like cheese too much).
Zergs should just man the fuck up. The first real games ofStarcraft I played against my friends all he did was bunker rush me with some sort of 8-rax build. Just get used to it; it's not like you're that far behind if you defend it, if you kill the first 1-2 marines then he backs off. If you do a pool first build you're likely to not lose any drones at all. Build a sunken for the vulture, you're building one anyways if they're going mech.
Well even if 8 rax cheese seems kinda imba to zerg, you can always count on that protoss doing the same thing to terran and wheter they fail or not they came out as the terran after the cheese namely: even or ahead with you
The way I see it, cheese is simply a tactic or build that depends on simple chance. Cheese != all-in. Cheese is simply using "chance" to either put you ahead or put you behind.
An example of cheese would be, of course, 8rax. An example of an all-in TvZ would be proxy BBS. The difference is that if it is directly countered, there is little to no way the BBS player would win, while the 8rax player will probably be set behind.
On December 21 2009 12:00 ZeKk wrote: Well even if 8 rax cheese seems kinda imba to zerg, you can always count on that protoss doing the same thing to terran and wheter they fail or not they came out as the terran after the cheese namely: even or ahead with you
Exactly, going something like DT rush -> quick expand -> 2base arbiters would be a normal build in my opinion. Cheese, yes, but far from all-in (that is, of course, if the Terran didn't 2fac vult or something and win right off the bat).
On December 21 2009 12:00 ZeKk wrote: Well even if 8 rax cheese seems kinda imba to zerg, you can always count on that protoss doing the same thing to terran and wheter they fail or not they came out as the terran after the cheese namely: even or ahead with you
On December 19 2009 16:25 Weryeery wrote: 8 rax is not a cheese. its just an illustration of the imbalance of the match up.
Its a game winning opening if its not defended properly, and even if its perfectly defended you're still ahead.
So dont be suprised if some Z players get pissed at you if you use 8 rax
Agree 100%
Its retarded how they have the option to use 8 rax as cheese (that is not risky at all) and can still come out ahead if it fails. Just shows that TvZ is the most imba matchup in SC. Even if Protoss gas stole the Terran, he still loses 100 minerals early on which delays his tech as well as the Terran's. In this case, you use the early barracks to get early factory which forces Zerg to get early sunken and you don't even lose your damn building because it fucking floats lol. So Terran's tech advances, while Zerg delays his tech. Is that even fair?
Doesn't matter what you call it, but it's certainly a rush build.
8rax implies that you will bring 2-3 scvs and bunker rush, excepted only if the zerg went pool first. Really, the only more aggressive build TvZ is BBS, which is almost totally all in.
On December 21 2009 14:16 Valentine wrote: The way I see it, cheese is simply a tactic or build that depends on simple chance. Cheese != all-in. Cheese is simply using "chance" to either put you ahead or put you behind.
So 12 hatch in ZvZ is cheese? You might have something different in mind, but the definition you gave is retarded.
And where the fuck did everyone get off saying 8 rax is cheese? 8 rax is one of the STANDARD openings for terrans in TvZ, if you don't expect it 20% of the time you're a retard and if you can't defend it half the time you suck.
8 rax is very strong vs the 12 hatch .. the downside is that you might be sacrificing economy for the faster rax however i dont think the 8 rax is cheese you could be using it for the faster factory
8 rax coupled with the bunker rush could be counted as cheese or a fast rine push.. idk
zergs have to learn how to deal with early rine pressure
I always thought of cheese as "loser strategies" (not really in a derogatory way). Your earliest possible attacks come from builds that will be at a sharp disadvantage if they come up against a player who gets units just in time to stop those attacks. IMO these "stop cheese" builds tend to be the normal builds, and so the fast attack ones are the "cheese" ones. A third class hopes that they won't be cheesed, trying to gain an economic advantage on the "stop cheese" builds. If you do a normal build you aren't really screwed against these builds, just a little behind. But if you do an advantage build against a cheese you are going to get hurt bad, or the cheese is stupid and should never be done.
A. Your earliest effective attacks = "cheese" builds B. Maximize your advantage vs A = "middle" builds, "normal" builds C. Maximize your advantage vs C = hurt by A, stronger vs B
Rock paper scissors, but weighted. So what I mean by "loser strategies" is that class A, the "cheese", overall is weak and shouldn't win often and therefore, maybe nobody should do it. However, if there is zero threat of A, then nobody should really do B either. In fact, in a world where everybody is doing C, you should probably just do A, though... even though overall, it's a bad bet.
There are also variations of these, for instance "almost C" builds that seek to "almost tie" with A (cancel hatch ZvZ). There are "almost A" builds that seek to "almost beat" (advantage but not beat) C's, while "almost keeping up" with B. You can see how this works.
Anyways, I think of "cheese" as one of the three classes of extremes under which you can place advantages between BO's. They are the ones that gain the advantage early against certain builds and find themselves behind _strongly_ against others.
Maybe I haven't said it perfectly but I think I have shown you how I think of "cheese," but others may define it differently.
edit: Oh, so in this framework, if what you say is correct, 8 rax is closer to a "B"; it's an "almost B", slightly behind a straight up advantage-vs-cheese maximizer, in order to have a "partial A" (punish C but not as fully as a maximal cheese, maximal A). If others say that 8 rax loses more hardcore then I would count it as a pure "cheese", but you don't seem to think this at all... on the other hand, something that hurts a lot more when it fails would be Proxy BBS.
I respectfully disagree. If there is a well-defined follow-up build order then I don't consider it cheese, and proxy 8 rax -> vulture -> wraith -> m/m drop is SOOOOO good in TvZ.
I don't really care about calling it cheese or not. Everyone has their own definition of it. But seriously, there is nothing comparable in zerg build orders that is as gay as 8 rax into a fast vulture. You gotta pull your drones to defend and somehow get that sunken up in time and afford early den and lair because you have no clue of what the terran is doing and he easily dictates the game. Surely that is pretty damn gay for a build that just requires cutting on a couple scvs.
On December 22 2009 09:09 Cloud wrote: I don't really care about calling it cheese or not. Everyone has their own definition of it. But seriously, there is nothing comparable in zerg build orders that is as gay as 8 rax into a fast vulture. You gotta pull your drones to defend and somehow get that sunken up in time and afford early den and lair because you have no clue of what the terran is doing and he easily dictates the game. Surely that is pretty damn gay for a build that just requires cutting on a couple scvs.
On December 21 2009 14:16 Valentine wrote: The way I see it, cheese is simply a tactic or build that depends on simple chance. Cheese != all-in. Cheese is simply using "chance" to either put you ahead or put you behind.
So 12 hatch in ZvZ is cheese? You might have something different in mind, but the definition you gave is retarded.
With my definition, yes, I consider it cheesy. I was actually thinking more of this today when I was bored. In the way I see things, any type of strategy or tactic that is used by you with my earlier definiton which is not being forced on you.
So play along, a Terran is pushing your third expansion (Protoss), and you think that if you all-in counter his natural, you might be able to turn the tide. I don't think this is cheesy due to the fact that the Terran was pretty much placed into the situation by the flow of the game.
Now this is coming from someone who loves to cheese, and tells his teammates to cheese him and all-in him more often in practice games. I hate people who cry about being cheesed (I used to be one of them), but now it's just annoying for me to read ;___; Just practice more against them and get better at defending/reading opponents :D
So does anyone else think my definitions are reasonable? o__o;;
On December 19 2009 16:05 SkepTicAL wrote: 8 rax is a build order, not a cheese. Cheese is something that you can't recover from if it fails. 8 rax you can transition to mech or fe carrying on the game from there.
That's not a very good definition. It's hard to recover from anything if it fails. I would consider cheese more something that would never work if your opponent knew it was coming.
Ok so if you intend to do a probe drop on a terrans SCV's and you don't lose the shuttle but you lose 2 probes 30 minutes in game its hard to recover from that?
Did you have an actual point or do you just love nitpicking and thinking you've proven someone else's point wrong? I think it's obvious what I'm saying here. It's called common sense and inference. Use it. Edit: seeing that you're banned, guess you didnt'.
On December 21 2009 11:42 ArvickHero wrote: I say we stop using the word "cheese" and start using the phrase "strategic play" like the Koreans to describe any non-management type of strategy.
On December 19 2009 14:38 789 wrote: I ...Funny thing is they yell at terrans for turtling, and then when they do an aggressive opening its cheese.... How else is terran supposed to punish the other races for 12 pool/12 nexus.
Completely agree on that mate, Z and P has a lot of cheese options and us terrans got only BBS and maybe proxy fac on their main or something. and still they complain.
On December 22 2009 16:15 checo wrote: If zergs would stop tryng to 12 hatch all the time they wouldn't even mind 8rax.... greedy bastards
If Terrans would stop 12 raxing all the time, they wouldn't even mind 4 pools. /sarcasm off, 12 Hatch is necessary for zergs to stay on economic par with terrans.
On December 19 2009 14:38 789 wrote: I ...Funny thing is they yell at terrans for turtling, and then when they do an aggressive opening its cheese.... How else is terran supposed to punish the other races for 12 pool/12 nexus.
Completely agree on that mate, Z and P has a lot of cheese options and us terrans got only BBS and maybe proxy fac on their main or something. and still they complain.
ehh terrans have as many "cheeses", it's just that most terrans only knows how to go 1rax cc in TvZ / 1fac cc in TvP->turtle, and then complain if other players wants to be agressive and not to die to boredom.
On December 19 2009 14:38 789 wrote: I ...Funny thing is they yell at terrans for turtling, and then when they do an aggressive opening its cheese.... How else is terran supposed to punish the other races for 12 pool/12 nexus.
Completely agree on that mate, Z and P has a lot of cheese options and us terrans got only BBS and maybe proxy fac on their main or something. and still they complain.
Z dont have cheese option, they have allin builds. that means if the aggression fail its over you can leave.
Whats magical with T and P is they have builds that are as deadly than Z allin but even if it miserably fail you can still recover.
On December 19 2009 14:38 789 wrote: I ...Funny thing is they yell at terrans for turtling, and then when they do an aggressive opening its cheese.... How else is terran supposed to punish the other races for 12 pool/12 nexus.
Completely agree on that mate, Z and P has a lot of cheese options and us terrans got only BBS and maybe proxy fac on their main or something. and still they complain.
Z dont have cheese option, they have allin builds. that means if the aggression fail its over you can leave.
Whats magical with T and P is they have builds that are as deadly than Z allin but even if it miserably fail you can still recover.
yes, when the zerg is nub. z can survive anything with just few lurkers and defilers. and cheap scourges.
Yeah but if you fail an all-in you won't survive long enough to get defilers which is the point he's trying to make. What kind of all-in occurs at hive tech?
On December 23 2009 00:19 QuakerOats wrote: Yeah but if you fail an all-in you won't survive long enough to get defilers which is the point he's trying to make. What kind of all-in occurs at hive tech?
On December 23 2009 00:19 QuakerOats wrote: Yeah but if you fail an all-in you won't survive long enough to get defilers which is the point he's trying to make. What kind of all-in occurs at hive tech?
read my earlier post, think for a moment and you realize why there is no all-ins after hive-tech it's impossible to all-in if you can recover from anything!
On December 22 2009 16:15 checo wrote: If zergs would stop tryng to 12 hatch all the time they wouldn't even mind 8rax.... greedy bastards
If Terrans would stop 12 raxing all the time, they wouldn't even mind 4 pools. /sarcasm off, 12 Hatch is necessary for zergs to stay on economic par with terrans.
Thats why i don't mind 4pools i have never lost to that i never 12 rax... Well if you wan't econ advantage then you take the risk, just like 12 rax or 14 cc, no chesse at all
On December 22 2009 16:15 checo wrote: If zergs would stop tryng to 12 hatch all the time they wouldn't even mind 8rax.... greedy bastards
If Terrans would stop 12 raxing all the time, they wouldn't even mind 4 pools. /sarcasm off, 12 Hatch is necessary for zergs to stay on economic par with terrans.
Thats why i don't mind 4pools i have never lost to that i never 12 rax... Well if you wan't econ advantage then you take the risk, just like 12 rax or 14 cc, no chesse at all
which is probably why ull never get higher than d+
On December 22 2009 16:15 checo wrote: If zergs would stop tryng to 12 hatch all the time they wouldn't even mind 8rax.... greedy bastards
If Terrans would stop 12 raxing all the time, they wouldn't even mind 4 pools. /sarcasm off, 12 Hatch is necessary for zergs to stay on economic par with terrans.
Thats why i don't mind 4pools i have never lost to that i never 12 rax... Well if you wan't econ advantage then you take the risk, just like 12 rax or 14 cc, no chesse at all
which is probably why ull never get higher than d+
Maybe XD but i don't call 8 rax chesse neither and i just dont get higher than D+ cause school takes to much time from me, can't even play 2hrs in a row, thats why no because i use greedy builds
Countered By - (From Liquipedia) * 9 pool - pretty much negates this rush, but it doesn't really give Zerg any big advantage as Terran will defend against the Pool easily. * Zergling run-by - If the bunker is poorly placed and the SCVs are not ready to block it, the Zerg players can get his 6 first Zerglings through and run to the Terran main, killing the few SCVs that are left. The Zerg natural will die, but Zerg still wins
.
An 8 rax is more known for a bunker rush, therefore cheese. Though it is not all-in such as a BBS. This is a SOFT counter to the 12 hatch 11 pool build of the century. However, with good drone micro this build should be thwarted away. The best transitioning from this build (considering the deeds are applied) is into the standard 1 rax into FE. If you actually kill the zerg natural the zerg is forced (or will most likely if he wants a chance of winning to go into lurkers. If this does happen, best is to run on 1 base terran while OPing the zerg and not letting him expand till the lurkers are out. A quick factory (usually after 2nd barracks) with 1 tank (tanks may be cut, one may be enough for 1 base lurker) may counteract the lurkers considering you have decent micro.
Micro is really intense in this build, as it is needed to apply damage. Though it may not seem, the economic difference between the two builds (while the other being the basic 1 rax>FE) are huge. This would be considered cheese, highly depending on the barracks placement. Inside the main would be a standard aggressive opening. I myself would put it in the natural. As said this build is micro intense. if you can't deal with a 9 pool (without a bunker or ramp block, this is pretty much testing your scv-marine skills) I wouldn't recommend this build.
Countered By - (From Liquipedia) * 9 pool - pretty much negates this rush, but it doesn't really give Zerg any big advantage as Terran will defend against the Pool easily. * Zergling run-by - If the bunker is poorly placed and the SCVs are not ready to block it, the Zerg players can get his 6 first Zerglings through and run to the Terran main, killing the few SCVs that are left. The Zerg natural will die, but Zerg still wins
.
An 8 rax is more known for a bunker rush, therefore cheese. Though it is not all-in such as a BBS. This is a SOFT counter to the 12 hatch 11 pool build of the century. However, with good drone micro this build should be thwarted away. The best transitioning from this build (considering the deeds are applied) is into the standard 1 rax into FE. If you actually kill the zerg natural the zerg is forced (or will most likely if he wants a chance of winning to go into lurkers. If this does happen, best is to run on 1 base terran while OPing the zerg and not letting him expand till the lurkers are out. A quick factory (usually after 2nd barracks) with 1 tank (tanks may be cut, one may be enough for 1 base lurker) may counteract the lurkers considering you have decent micro.
Micro is really intense in this build, as it is needed to apply damage. Though it may not seem, the economic difference between the two builds (while the other being the basic 1 rax>FE) are huge. This would be considered cheese, highly depending on the barracks placement. Inside the main would be a standard aggressive opening. I myself would put it in the natural. As said this build is micro intense. if you can't deal with a 9 pool (without a bunker or ramp block, this is pretty much testing your scv-marine skills) I wouldn't recommend this build.
You just covered everything of what everyone already knows in perfect detail!
I would call 8 rax cheese because I recently met a Korean doing it in the middle of the map on Blue Storm and pulling away some SCV:s with a couple marines, but when he saw my 9 pool he lifted the rax and made factory and tried to block unsuccessfully. I had very fast muta build and I won pretty easily, BUT there's no way I would win to that guy if he played standard cus he never lost to a foreigner before and was 3-4 ranks above me.
It is based upon no scouting before you make the decision, and it is countered/hard countered by a more or less standard build (9pool). Unless u do it in base, witch makes the build so much more worse, but very different from a proxy 8 rax.
On December 25 2009 09:16 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: So if it gets hard-countered by 9 pool it's cheese?
... actually, that's not a bad definition.
Ohh? It is a very bad definition. But it is so much luck dependent that I would call it a cheese.
it was perfectly positioned and timed against the overlord, and while jd is supply stuck (but not really suffering from it other than scouting information) Flash goes in for the kill.
even if the bunker failed flash is still on a base with same number of scvs. not all-in at all.
On December 25 2009 21:16 Lozzo.cu wrote: Flash's 8 rax is NOT cheese.
it was perfectly positioned and timed against the overlord, and while jd is supply stuck (but not really suffering from it other than scouting information) Flash goes in for the kill.
even if the bunker failed flash is still on a base with same number of scvs. not all-in at all.
Proxy barracks, bunker rush, pulling four scvs. If that isn't cheese, then what is?
On December 25 2009 21:16 Lozzo.cu wrote: Flash's 8 rax is NOT cheese.
it was perfectly positioned and timed against the overlord, and while jd is supply stuck (but not really suffering from it other than scouting information) Flash goes in for the kill.
even if the bunker failed flash is still on a base with same number of scvs. not all-in at all.
Proxy barracks, bunker rush, pulling four scvs. If that isn't cheese, then what is?
Cheese is some sort of attack you commit to where you are blindly hoping to do a lot of damage through surprise and if you fail, you generally lose. In this case, the only thing Flash blindly committed to was his proxy rax. The rax was barely outside of his nat. He would hardly lose if he failed to do damage with it. He didn't commit to the attack until after he killed the overlord. To me, his attack seemed more like a timing attack than a cheese rush.
On December 25 2009 21:16 Lozzo.cu wrote: Flash's 8 rax is NOT cheese.
it was perfectly positioned and timed against the overlord, and while jd is supply stuck (but not really suffering from it other than scouting information) Flash goes in for the kill.
even if the bunker failed flash is still on a base with same number of scvs. not all-in at all.
Proxy barracks, bunker rush, pulling four scvs. If that isn't cheese, then what is?
4 pool rax outside his base pulling 8 scvs etc
Flash put a rax outside HIS OWN main, got the overlord (all planned), scouted the 12 hatch and went for the bunker. If Jaedong had gone pool first Flash could have taken the overlord anyway, floated the rax back into his main (its v close) while gassing for tech. He would have been at least even with Jaedong, prob ahead because of the OL snipe.
In other words, his build doesn't rely on killing drones or the main to get an advantage or stay even.
On December 25 2009 21:16 Lozzo.cu wrote: Flash's 8 rax is NOT cheese.
it was perfectly positioned and timed against the overlord, and while jd is supply stuck (but not really suffering from it other than scouting information) Flash goes in for the kill.
even if the bunker failed flash is still on a base with same number of scvs. not all-in at all.
Proxy barracks, bunker rush, pulling four scvs. If that isn't cheese, then what is?
cheese is something noobs do to other noobs. at S class progaming what flash did is a carefully thought out early attack. you and especially those who are sour at losing to "cheese" seem to think thatjust about anybody can do what FLASH did to the BEST ZERG IN THE HISTORY OF PROGAMING and the DEFENDING CHAMPION JAEDONG at the RO8 of the 2009 EVER OSL,
On December 25 2009 21:16 Lozzo.cu wrote: Flash's 8 rax is NOT cheese.
it was perfectly positioned and timed against the overlord, and while jd is supply stuck (but not really suffering from it other than scouting information) Flash goes in for the kill.
even if the bunker failed flash is still on a base with same number of scvs. not all-in at all.
Proxy barracks, bunker rush, pulling four scvs. If that isn't cheese, then what is?
Cheese is some sort of attack you commit to where you are blindly hoping to do a lot of damage through surprise and if you fail, you generally lose. In this case, the only thing Flash blindly committed to was his proxy rax. The rax was barely outside of his nat. He would hardly lose if he failed to do damage with it. He didn't commit to the attack until after he killed the overlord. To me, his attack seemed more like a timing attack than a cheese rush.
On December 25 2009 21:16 Lozzo.cu wrote: Flash's 8 rax is NOT cheese.
it was perfectly positioned and timed against the overlord, and while jd is supply stuck (but not really suffering from it other than scouting information) Flash goes in for the kill.
even if the bunker failed flash is still on a base with same number of scvs. not all-in at all.
Proxy barracks, bunker rush, pulling four scvs. If that isn't cheese, then what is?
cheese is something noobs do to other noobs. at S class progaming what flash did is a carefully thought out early attack. you and especially those who are sour at losing to "cheese" seem to think thatjust about anybody can do what FLASH did to the BEST ZERG IN THE HISTORY OF PROGAMING and the DEFENDING CHAMPION JAEDONG at the RO8 of the 2009 EVER OSL,
i mean, it's "cheese" after all.
This one, on the other hand..... I have no clue, lol.
I dunno how you guys can say that wasn't cheese from Flash, it fucked Jaedong up, was easy to do and didn't even set him far behind, therefore it is very cheese!
I'd say cheese is something that is easy to do but difficult to counter and can happen at any point in the game, if it doesn't set someone far back then it is even more cheese.
On December 25 2009 21:16 Lozzo.cu wrote: Flash's 8 rax is NOT cheese.
it was perfectly positioned and timed against the overlord, and while jd is supply stuck (but not really suffering from it other than scouting information) Flash goes in for the kill.
even if the bunker failed flash is still on a base with same number of scvs. not all-in at all.
Proxy barracks, bunker rush, pulling four scvs. If that isn't cheese, then what is?
Cheese is some sort of attack you commit to where you are blindly hoping to do a lot of damage through surprise and if you fail, you generally lose. In this case, the only thing Flash blindly committed to was his proxy rax. The rax was barely outside of his nat. He would hardly lose if he failed to do damage with it. He didn't commit to the attack until after he killed the overlord. To me, his attack seemed more like a timing attack than a cheese rush.
Thats a horrible definition of Cheese. Cheese should not be determined by how all-in it is. There are different types of cheese: hydra cannon break, 3 hatch ling all-in, 5 pool, Bio Rush TvP, etc that have different amounts of all-in. And since these are all cheese, you can't determine whats different just by the riskiness of it.
Cheese is simply nonstandard play, just because it wasn't risky doesn't mean its not cheese. Terran Cheese versus Zerg is not risky at all and can do potential massive damage because TvZ is imbalanced, so therefore, that does not mean 8 rax bunker rush does not qualify as cheese. Its just the imbalance of the matchup, thats all
On December 25 2009 21:16 Lozzo.cu wrote: Flash's 8 rax is NOT cheese.
it was perfectly positioned and timed against the overlord, and while jd is supply stuck (but not really suffering from it other than scouting information) Flash goes in for the kill.
even if the bunker failed flash is still on a base with same number of scvs. not all-in at all.
Proxy barracks, bunker rush, pulling four scvs. If that isn't cheese, then what is?
cheese is something noobs do to other noobs. at S class progaming what flash did is a carefully thought out early attack. you and especially those who are sour at losing to "cheese" seem to think thatjust about anybody can do what FLASH did to the BEST ZERG IN THE HISTORY OF PROGAMING and the DEFENDING CHAMPION JAEDONG at the RO8 of the 2009 EVER OSL,
i mean, it's "cheese" after all.
Wtf? Stopped reading after the 1st sentence. Worst post ever
On December 26 2009 05:25 Avidkeystamper wrote: I can't believe we've arrived at the point when people 8 proxy rax into bunker rush with pulled SCVs not cheese, and 12 hatch 11 pool a greedy build.
On December 26 2009 02:53 dasanivan wrote: Way too many people arguing about what cheese is without a primary source. Research it and maybe people will stop saying you're wrong.
I think part of it is that "cheese" only really has a stigma against it outside Korea. Notice that the equivalent term in progamer interviews is translated as "strategic play". That doesn't have the same bad connotations.
On December 26 2009 05:25 Avidkeystamper wrote: I can't believe we've arrived at the point when people 8 proxy rax into bunker rush with pulled SCVs not cheese, and 12 hatch 11 pool a greedy build.
IMO the 7rax in and of itself is not cheese. It's the pulled SCVs and bunker rush that turned it into a cheese.
That's really where the disagreement is, I think. The main argument for it not being cheese is that you can transition from a 7rax into a wall-in and tech, and come out even. The thing is, once you pull the SCVs and the bunker goes up, you're cheesing, no other real way to put it. When your SCVs are at his base, and the bunker is building, that has no real "transition".
On December 25 2009 21:16 Lozzo.cu wrote: Flash's 8 rax is NOT cheese.
it was perfectly positioned and timed against the overlord, and while jd is supply stuck (but not really suffering from it other than scouting information) Flash goes in for the kill.
even if the bunker failed flash is still on a base with same number of scvs. not all-in at all.
Proxy barracks, bunker rush, pulling four scvs. If that isn't cheese, then what is?
cheese is something noobs do to other noobs. at S class progaming what flash did is a carefully thought out early attack. you and especially those who are sour at losing to "cheese" seem to think thatjust about anybody can do what FLASH did to the BEST ZERG IN THE HISTORY OF PROGAMING and the DEFENDING CHAMPION JAEDONG at the RO8 of the 2009 EVER OSL,
i mean, it's "cheese" after all.
Wtf? Stopped reading after the 1st sentence. Worst post ever
well that's the thing isn't it. it's "cheese" regardless of who executes it. be it boxer, or d+ iccup noobs. it's SO EASY TO DO, you don't have to think about resource timing, unit movement and the overall success rate.
let us all comfort ourselves that jaedong is the better player regardless of how he lost because he got "cheesed" out of the osl. boo hoo.
On December 25 2009 21:16 Lozzo.cu wrote: Flash's 8 rax is NOT cheese.
it was perfectly positioned and timed against the overlord, and while jd is supply stuck (but not really suffering from it other than scouting information) Flash goes in for the kill.
even if the bunker failed flash is still on a base with same number of scvs. not all-in at all.
Proxy barracks, bunker rush, pulling four scvs. If that isn't cheese, then what is?
cheese is something noobs do to other noobs. at S class progaming what flash did is a carefully thought out early attack. you and especially those who are sour at losing to "cheese" seem to think thatjust about anybody can do what FLASH did to the BEST ZERG IN THE HISTORY OF PROGAMING and the DEFENDING CHAMPION JAEDONG at the RO8 of the 2009 EVER OSL,
i mean, it's "cheese" after all.
Wtf? Stopped reading after the 1st sentence. Worst post ever
well that's the thing isn't it. it's "cheese" regardless of who executes it. be it boxer, or d+ iccup noobs. it's SO EASY TO DO, you don't have to think about resource timing, unit movement and the overall success rate.
let us all comfort ourselves that jaedong is the better player regardless of how he lost because he got "cheesed" out of the osl. boo hoo.
Jaedong lost because TvZ is imbalanced. Simple as that. And lets not forget Flash is a monster player
For those of you who are still saying that Flash's "8rax"(which was actually 7 rax) was not cheese (when he cut SCVs to get the early rax, which he proxied, hoping that Jaedong went for something like a 12 hatch), well, it was cheese, and that's all there is to it. Maybe if he had gone 8rax into a factory or something, (and DIDNT pull SCVs for the kill), then people wouldnt be kicking and screaming cheese, but what Flash did was.
On December 26 2009 02:53 dasanivan wrote: Way too many people arguing about what cheese is without a primary source. Research it and maybe people will stop saying you're wrong.
I think part of it is that "cheese" only really has a stigma against it outside Korea. Notice that the equivalent term in progamer interviews is translated as "strategic play". That doesn't have the same bad connotations.
On December 26 2009 05:25 Avidkeystamper wrote: I can't believe we've arrived at the point when people 8 proxy rax into bunker rush with pulled SCVs not cheese, and 12 hatch 11 pool a greedy build.
IMO the 7rax in and of itself is not cheese. It's the pulled SCVs and bunker rush that turned it into a cheese.
That's really where the disagreement is, I think. The main argument for it not being cheese is that you can transition from a 7rax into a wall-in and tech, and come out even. The thing is, once you pull the SCVs and the bunker goes up, you're cheesing, no other real way to put it. When your SCVs are at his base, and the bunker is building, that has no real "transition".
of course there is, a bunker rush forces a trade, getting ovies sniped forces you to use up larva and extra minerals. in order to destroy the bunker you are forced to make sunkens, pull drones and make extra lings. which of course delays everything giving you time to get medics.
on hbr and neo hbr you have a safety feature of an extremely narrow easily defensible choke. being a two player map makes it usable and should've been given a higher probability of being used on you.
On December 25 2009 21:16 Lozzo.cu wrote: Flash's 8 rax is NOT cheese.
it was perfectly positioned and timed against the overlord, and while jd is supply stuck (but not really suffering from it other than scouting information) Flash goes in for the kill.
even if the bunker failed flash is still on a base with same number of scvs. not all-in at all.
Proxy barracks, bunker rush, pulling four scvs. If that isn't cheese, then what is?
cheese is something noobs do to other noobs. at S class progaming what flash did is a carefully thought out early attack. you and especially those who are sour at losing to "cheese" seem to think thatjust about anybody can do what FLASH did to the BEST ZERG IN THE HISTORY OF PROGAMING and the DEFENDING CHAMPION JAEDONG at the RO8 of the 2009 EVER OSL,
i mean, it's "cheese" after all.
Wtf? Stopped reading after the 1st sentence. Worst post ever
well that's the thing isn't it. it's "cheese" regardless of who executes it. be it boxer, or d+ iccup noobs. it's SO EASY TO DO, you don't have to think about resource timing, unit movement and the overall success rate.
let us all comfort ourselves that jaedong is the better player regardless of how he lost because he got "cheesed" out of the osl. boo hoo.
Jaedong lost because TvZ is imbalanced. Simple as that. And lets not forget Flash is a monster player
On December 26 2009 10:39 NeCroPoTeNce wrote: For those of you who are still saying that Flash's "8rax"(which was actually 7 rax) was not cheese (when he cut SCVs to get the early rax, which he proxied, hoping that Jaedong went for something like a 12 hatch), well, it was cheese, and that's all there is to it. Maybe if he had gone 8rax into a factory or something, (and DIDNT pull SCVs for the kill), then people wouldnt be kicking and screaming cheese, but what Flash did was.
no to execute that bunker rush you can't transition into mech, it's just not viable. it's always medics, which you can easily get provided the rush was somewhat successful.
plus, it wasn't even a proxy, it was nowhere near the middle let alone jaedong's nat. just a forward position just outside of ovie sight.
On December 25 2009 21:16 Lozzo.cu wrote: Flash's 8 rax is NOT cheese.
it was perfectly positioned and timed against the overlord, and while jd is supply stuck (but not really suffering from it other than scouting information) Flash goes in for the kill.
even if the bunker failed flash is still on a base with same number of scvs. not all-in at all.
Proxy barracks, bunker rush, pulling four scvs. If that isn't cheese, then what is?
Cheese is some sort of attack you commit to where you are blindly hoping to do a lot of damage through surprise and if you fail, you generally lose. In this case, the only thing Flash blindly committed to was his proxy rax. The rax was barely outside of his nat. He would hardly lose if he failed to do damage with it. He didn't commit to the attack until after he killed the overlord. To me, his attack seemed more like a timing attack than a cheese rush.
Thats a horrible definition of Cheese. Cheese should not be determined by how all-in it is. There are different types of cheese: hydra cannon break, 3 hatch ling all-in, 5 pool, Bio Rush TvP, etc that have different amounts of all-in. And since these are all cheese, you can't determine whats different just by the riskiness of it.
Cheese is simply nonstandard play, just because it wasn't risky doesn't mean its not cheese. Terran Cheese versus Zerg is not risky at all and can do potential massive damage because TvZ is imbalanced, so therefore, that does not mean 8 rax bunker rush does not qualify as cheese. Its just the imbalance of the matchup, thats all
I would say less than 5% of the entire population of Teamliquid would agree with you on that. That's completely ridiculous to say that cheese is anything nonstandard. That's like saying Corsair/Reaver is cheese, or skipping a corsair after FE is cheese, or something of that sort.
In fact, I (personally) would say he had the BEST definition of cheese seen so far. And Flash's build was not cheese whatsoever, it didn't matter what Jaedong's buildorder was - Flash would have been able to adapt no matter what, unless Jaedong did something alone the line of 4 pooling (5 pool vs Terran on HBR would be retarded). Proxy rax into mech is a very standard build order - there's no reason not to do that in fact.
They don't really have "different amounts" of all-in. Does that make sense? It's ALL-IN. That's key. If that SPECIFIC attack doesn't accomplish it's goal - you LOSE. If 3 hatch all-in ling doesn't work - you LOSE. Simple. If Bio Rush TvP doesn't work - you're going to LOSE. If hydra cannon break doesn't end up working - you LOSE. Hence the definition of "all-in."
8 Rax was not all-in whatsoever, as stated, because he carefully calculated where the overlord would be, so he would have had an overlord snipe to delay lings if he decided to go pool first anyways. Even if he made the 6 lings before the overlord snipe - Flash would have two marines he could send back to his main (after sniping the overlord) and build a bunker (or just block with SCVs) and transition into mech play since the travel distance for lings is so long on HBR.
The build is so smart and precise by Flash 8 rax might even become STANDARD on HBR, or Zergs will have to change their OL scouting path, or something will end up changing. It's the exact same concept as why Zergs almost never 12 hatch on Destination vs Protoss simply because Protoss will just 14 Nexus as a result and be economically ahead - while at the same time having a very easy time blocking the hatchery placement.
On December 25 2009 21:16 Lozzo.cu wrote: Flash's 8 rax is NOT cheese.
it was perfectly positioned and timed against the overlord, and while jd is supply stuck (but not really suffering from it other than scouting information) Flash goes in for the kill.
even if the bunker failed flash is still on a base with same number of scvs. not all-in at all.
Which 8rax are you talking about? Flash just beat Jaedong with a 7rax is that what ur talking about?
I don't think that it was cheese, in my opinion. The way Flash played it made it seem more like a timing attack aimed at sniping the overlord that was vulnerable because of the different terrain of New Heartbreak Ridge. The forward barracks at 7 capitalized on that timing window and was placed just outside of his natural to avoid the scouting path. That's all that Flash wanted to prove, and he risked absolutely nothing. He'd have consolidated and been in a good position for the midgame if he hadn't scouted the 12hatch. At that point he realized that the game was simply over, committed his forces to a bunker rush, and cashed in.
To me, at that point with the overlord sniped, it was the same thing as if a Zerg player went 9pool and then scouted a Terran going 14cc. No reason to twiddle your thumbs and let the Terran fortify himself, just waltz into his base, kill all his doodz, and collect your build order win.
Like a few people said, it was amazing preparation.. sort of like a powerful novelty refuting an opening variation in chess. Since he risked nothing, it was the kind of thing that makes one wonder if the map, or even the matchup, is imbalanced. At least we know that it forces Zergs to switch things up.
If 8 rax is cheese 9pool is cheese. You take a slight hit to your economy to push units out faster than if you go for a more economical based build. I don't see 8rax as cheese at all, aggressive and riskier but not cheese.
Even if it is cheese who gives a shit it's strong vs a 12hatch opening by zerg especially if you get that first overlord.
On December 26 2009 12:08 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote: I don't think that it was cheese, in my opinion. The way Flash played it made it seem more like a timing attack aimed at sniping the overlord that was vulnerable because of the different terrain of New Heartbreak Ridge. The forward barracks at 7 capitalized on that timing window and was placed just outside of his natural to avoid the scouting path. That's all that Flash wanted to prove, and he risked absolutely nothing. He'd have consolidated and been in a good position for the midgame if he hadn't scouted the 12hatch. At that point he realized that the game was simply over, committed his forces to a bunker rush, and cashed in.
To me, at that point with the overlord sniped, it was the same thing as if a Zerg player went 9pool and then scouted a Terran going 14cc. No reason to twiddle your thumbs and let the Terran fortify himself, just waltz into his base, kill all his doodz, and collect your build order win.
Like a few people said, it was amazing preparation.. sort of like a powerful novelty refuting an opening variation in chess. Since he risked nothing, it was the kind of thing that makes one wonder if the map, or even the matchup, is imbalanced. At least we know that it forces Zergs to switch things up.
On December 26 2009 11:32 IdrA wrote: and what flash did is obviously cheese, 7 rax and pulling 4 scvs? it doesnt really matter if it was a good decision or planned out or what, he was going for a quick kill and if it had failed he would have lost. that kind of build IS what cheese is. the fact that it was really likely to work just means its a good cheese.
On December 26 2009 02:53 dasanivan wrote: Way too many people arguing about what cheese is without a primary source. Research it and maybe people will stop saying you're wrong.
I think part of it is that "cheese" only really has a stigma against it outside Korea. Notice that the equivalent term in progamer interviews is translated as "strategic play". That doesn't have the same bad connotations.
Its because its a interview thats going to be viewed by the public. Of course they have to use terms like that. There are words for stuff like cheese and all in builds in korean that have negative connatations.
On December 26 2009 11:32 IdrA wrote: and what flash did is obviously cheese, 7 rax and pulling 4 scvs? it doesnt really matter if it was a good decision or planned out or what, he was going for a quick kill and if it had failed he would have lost. that kind of build IS what cheese is. the fact that it was really likely to work just means its a good cheese.
I know on TL it's heretical not to immediately defer to IdrA's wisdom, but I stick by what I wrote.
On December 26 2009 12:08 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote: I don't think that it was cheese, in my opinion. The way Flash played it made it seem more like a timing attack aimed at sniping the overlord that was vulnerable because of the different terrain of New Heartbreak Ridge. The forward barracks at 7 capitalized on that timing window and was placed just outside of his natural to avoid the scouting path. That's all that Flash wanted to prove, and he risked absolutely nothing. He'd have consolidated and been in a good position for the midgame if he hadn't scouted the 12hatch. At that point he realized that the game was simply over, committed his forces to a bunker rush, and cashed in.
To me, at that point with the overlord sniped, it was the same thing as if a Zerg player went 9pool and then scouted a Terran going 14cc. No reason to twiddle your thumbs and let the Terran fortify himself, just waltz into his base, kill all his doodz, and collect your build order win.
Like a few people said, it was amazing preparation.. sort of like a powerful novelty refuting an opening variation in chess. Since he risked nothing, it was the kind of thing that makes one wonder if the map, or even the matchup, is imbalanced. At least we know that it forces Zergs to switch things up.
I don't consider this cheese the same way I don't consider 9pool autowinning against 12hatch or 14cc to be cheesy. Flash only moved out because he had a build order win--simply, the overlord snipe decisively magnified the power of a bunker rush. Comparison to a standard 8rax bunker rush seems irrelevant.
I think everyone should realize that Koreans only use the term "cheese" when they're discussing SCV + marine rushes.
I have no idea how it went on to mean anything else, and it's just weird watching people talk about Protoss and Zerg "cheese" builds.
If you're going to argue semantics you should think about the origins of the word!! Now I realize that the meaning of words can evolve across languages and whatever, but if nobody has agreed on a meaning, why not just go back to basics and refer to SCV + Marine rushes only as "cheese?"
There's a term for all-in builds that isn't "cheese." They're called "all-in."
I wrote this as I watched Iris vs Perfectman live. Kingdom was talking about Iris and the possibility of him cheese rushing the 12 nexus after he saw it. Notice Iris had not proxy raxed, nor did he prepare an all-in build. It's strictly used by Koreans when discussing pulling SCVs to accompany marines to rush, whether or not it was planned.
I propose that we accept this meaning and be done with it.
even the koreans seem somewhat unsure of the origin of the meaning, but in general there were three theories: one was that the strategy was dirty like cheese, something you could sniff out. the next was that it is a shortening of cheater's, and the third was that the strategy is as easy to pull off as eating a small piece of cheese. while most seem to agree that scv+marines is THE cheese rush, others disagree that the term is so exclusive.
the last few replies in the thread include these posts:
"Even if it's not a marine+scv rush, in zerg vs protoss if you do hardcore zealots [2 gate all zeals] and send a bunch of probes along --;; this is also called a cheese rush."
"... so in fact a cheese rush isn't exclusive to terran..."
and then
"-_-; The meaning, that it is as easy as eating a small piece of cheese is correct -_-; There were message board posts by Ongamenet's Kim Chang Sun and Commentator Um Jae Gyung at one point. You'll indeed be able to find that they wrote this if you search. But these days it seems people are taking it as the second meaning, that it's "cheater's rush."
The thread originates from 2003.
In general everything else, including a 2004-5 starcraft book by um jae kyung seems to point to 7, 8, rax marine + scv as the definition of cheese.
On December 25 2009 21:16 Lozzo.cu wrote: Flash's 8 rax is NOT cheese.
it was perfectly positioned and timed against the overlord, and while jd is supply stuck (but not really suffering from it other than scouting information) Flash goes in for the kill.
even if the bunker failed flash is still on a base with same number of scvs. not all-in at all.
Proxy barracks, bunker rush, pulling four scvs. If that isn't cheese, then what is?
Cheese is some sort of attack you commit to where you are blindly hoping to do a lot of damage through surprise and if you fail, you generally lose. In this case, the only thing Flash blindly committed to was his proxy rax. The rax was barely outside of his nat. He would hardly lose if he failed to do damage with it. He didn't commit to the attack until after he killed the overlord. To me, his attack seemed more like a timing attack than a cheese rush.
Thats a horrible definition of Cheese. Cheese should not be determined by how all-in it is. There are different types of cheese: hydra cannon break, 3 hatch ling all-in, 5 pool, Bio Rush TvP, etc that have different amounts of all-in. And since these are all cheese, you can't determine whats different just by the riskiness of it.
Cheese is simply nonstandard play, just because it wasn't risky doesn't mean its not cheese. Terran Cheese versus Zerg is not risky at all and can do potential massive damage because TvZ is imbalanced, so therefore, that does not mean 8 rax bunker rush does not qualify as cheese. Its just the imbalance of the matchup, thats all
I would say less than 5% of the entire population of Teamliquid would agree with you on that. That's completely ridiculous to say that cheese is anything nonstandard. That's like saying Corsair/Reaver is cheese, or skipping a corsair after FE is cheese, or something of that sort.
In fact, I (personally) would say he had the BEST definition of cheese seen so far. And Flash's build was not cheese whatsoever, it didn't matter what Jaedong's buildorder was - Flash would have been able to adapt no matter what, unless Jaedong did something alone the line of 4 pooling (5 pool vs Terran on HBR would be retarded). Proxy rax into mech is a very standard build order - there's no reason not to do that in fact.
They don't really have "different amounts" of all-in. Does that make sense? It's ALL-IN. That's key. If that SPECIFIC attack doesn't accomplish it's goal - you LOSE. If 3 hatch all-in ling doesn't work - you LOSE. Simple. If Bio Rush TvP doesn't work - you're going to LOSE. If hydra cannon break doesn't end up working - you LOSE. Hence the definition of "all-in.
uh actually ur wrong, cuz thats how me and lots of people define cheese, as "unstandard play". because the goal of cheese isnt always to kill the opponent, it can sometimes be to sacrifice a bit of economy to either kill the opponent or damage him enough so that your initial disadvantage can become an advantage, which is what flash did
it also has to have a "surprise factor" because if the opponent can expect it, then it will do no damage at all. do you get it? if 3 hatch all in ling doesn't kill the protoss but it kills most of his probes or his main, u are ahead. if bio rush tvp doesn't kill the protoss, but kills his natural, you're ahead. tvz is just unfair since they aren't that behind even with their cheeses
On December 25 2009 21:16 Lozzo.cu wrote: Flash's 8 rax is NOT cheese.
it was perfectly positioned and timed against the overlord, and while jd is supply stuck (but not really suffering from it other than scouting information) Flash goes in for the kill.
even if the bunker failed flash is still on a base with same number of scvs. not all-in at all.
Proxy barracks, bunker rush, pulling four scvs. If that isn't cheese, then what is?
Cheese is some sort of attack you commit to where you are blindly hoping to do a lot of damage through surprise and if you fail, you generally lose. In this case, the only thing Flash blindly committed to was his proxy rax. The rax was barely outside of his nat. He would hardly lose if he failed to do damage with it. He didn't commit to the attack until after he killed the overlord. To me, his attack seemed more like a timing attack than a cheese rush.
Thats a horrible definition of Cheese. Cheese should not be determined by how all-in it is. There are different types of cheese: hydra cannon break, 3 hatch ling all-in, 5 pool, Bio Rush TvP, etc that have different amounts of all-in. And since these are all cheese, you can't determine whats different just by the riskiness of it.
Cheese is simply nonstandard play, just because it wasn't risky doesn't mean its not cheese. Terran Cheese versus Zerg is not risky at all and can do potential massive damage because TvZ is imbalanced, so therefore, that does not mean 8 rax bunker rush does not qualify as cheese. Its just the imbalance of the matchup, thats all
I would say less than 5% of the entire population of Teamliquid would agree with you on that. That's completely ridiculous to say that cheese is anything nonstandard. That's like saying Corsair/Reaver is cheese, or skipping a corsair after FE is cheese, or something of that sort.
In fact, I (personally) would say he had the BEST definition of cheese seen so far. And Flash's build was not cheese whatsoever, it didn't matter what Jaedong's buildorder was - Flash would have been able to adapt no matter what, unless Jaedong did something alone the line of 4 pooling (5 pool vs Terran on HBR would be retarded). Proxy rax into mech is a very standard build order - there's no reason not to do that in fact.
They don't really have "different amounts" of all-in. Does that make sense? It's ALL-IN. That's key. If that SPECIFIC attack doesn't accomplish it's goal - you LOSE. If 3 hatch all-in ling doesn't work - you LOSE. Simple. If Bio Rush TvP doesn't work - you're going to LOSE. If hydra cannon break doesn't end up working - you LOSE. Hence the definition of "all-in.
uh actually ur wrong, cuz thats how me and lots of people define cheese, as "unstandard play". because the goal of cheese isnt always to kill the opponent, it can sometimes be to sacrifice a bit of economy to either kill the opponent or damage him enough so that your initial disadvantage can become an advantage, which is what flash did
it also has to have a "surprise factor" because if the opponent can expect it, then it will do no damage at all. do you get it? if 3 hatch all in ling doesn't kill the protoss but it kills most of his probes or his main, u are ahead. if bio rush tvp doesn't kill the protoss, but kills his natural, you're ahead. tvz is just unfair since they aren't that behind even with their cheeses
I never said the goal of cheese is to always kill the opponent - so I'm not sure what you said that. I am fully aware it is not. To sacrifice a bit of economy to either kill the opponent or damage him enough so that your initial disadvantage can become an advantage? Hardly.
There is aggressive play and management style play. By your definition aggressive play would always be cheese and management play is the ONLY way to play Zerg. Thus Jaedong is probably one of the cheesiest Zergs due to his aggressive Zerg playstyle. Is 2 hatch muta cheese vs Terran because you definitely sacrifice potential econ in order to do damage to the Terran. You pretty much HAVE to dmg the Terran, even if minimally, with your mutas or you're going to be behind. Yet currently 2 hatch muta is THE standard ZvT build, or at least was for quite a bit.
Is vulture harassing cheese, simply because if scouted it wouldn't do much dmg and could be stopped? Or is it more so that it works one way but not the other (much like the square/rectangle analogy). Was the Fantasy build (using dropship 4 vultures in main) to kill drones cheese simply because it wasn't scouted? In fact- if it's unstandard play - was the Bisu Build used to 3-0 Savior cheese simply because it was "unstandard play" DESPITE it attempting to MAXIMIZE economy?
Two gate is "unstandard play," yet is not considered cheese. By no means is 2gate standard with the exception of certain maps like Outsider. You going to tell me 2gate is cheese? Because yeah, I'll find a shitton of people on TL and another topic to show you otherwise. And proxy rax into mech isn't even cheese, it IS standard for a lot of mech builds. The pulling the SCVs as soon as he saw 12 hatch is a standard response and not cheese simply because that's the BEST move at that point in time. It's like how someone else said - if you went 9pool and you scouted the other person going 14 CC are you going to just sit around with your lings or kill your opponent? Just because SCVs are pulled doesn't mean shit. Hell you cut probes during a standard 10/12 2gate for a few seconds even so you can maximize zealot production.
Simply put, cheese is something gay. Cannon rush - Gay. 4 pool - Gay. 7 rax into bunker rush - Gay. It doesn't have to be all in, it doesn't have to be blind, it doesn't mean you will die if it fails. Cheese is just something non-standard that has the aim of crippling your opponent enough that the game will shortly end afterwards.
On December 25 2009 21:16 Lozzo.cu wrote: Flash's 8 rax is NOT cheese.
it was perfectly positioned and timed against the overlord, and while jd is supply stuck (but not really suffering from it other than scouting information) Flash goes in for the kill.
even if the bunker failed flash is still on a base with same number of scvs. not all-in at all.
Proxy barracks, bunker rush, pulling four scvs. If that isn't cheese, then what is?
Cheese is some sort of attack you commit to where you are blindly hoping to do a lot of damage through surprise and if you fail, you generally lose. In this case, the only thing Flash blindly committed to was his proxy rax. The rax was barely outside of his nat. He would hardly lose if he failed to do damage with it. He didn't commit to the attack until after he killed the overlord. To me, his attack seemed more like a timing attack than a cheese rush.
Thats a horrible definition of Cheese. Cheese should not be determined by how all-in it is. There are different types of cheese: hydra cannon break, 3 hatch ling all-in, 5 pool, Bio Rush TvP, etc that have different amounts of all-in. And since these are all cheese, you can't determine whats different just by the riskiness of it.
Cheese is simply nonstandard play, just because it wasn't risky doesn't mean its not cheese. Terran Cheese versus Zerg is not risky at all and can do potential massive damage because TvZ is imbalanced, so therefore, that does not mean 8 rax bunker rush does not qualify as cheese. Its just the imbalance of the matchup, thats all
I would say less than 5% of the entire population of Teamliquid would agree with you on that. That's completely ridiculous to say that cheese is anything nonstandard. That's like saying Corsair/Reaver is cheese, or skipping a corsair after FE is cheese, or something of that sort.
In fact, I (personally) would say he had the BEST definition of cheese seen so far. And Flash's build was not cheese whatsoever, it didn't matter what Jaedong's buildorder was - Flash would have been able to adapt no matter what, unless Jaedong did something alone the line of 4 pooling (5 pool vs Terran on HBR would be retarded). Proxy rax into mech is a very standard build order - there's no reason not to do that in fact.
They don't really have "different amounts" of all-in. Does that make sense? It's ALL-IN. That's key. If that SPECIFIC attack doesn't accomplish it's goal - you LOSE. If 3 hatch all-in ling doesn't work - you LOSE. Simple. If Bio Rush TvP doesn't work - you're going to LOSE. If hydra cannon break doesn't end up working - you LOSE. Hence the definition of "all-in.
uh actually ur wrong, cuz thats how me and lots of people define cheese, as "unstandard play". because the goal of cheese isnt always to kill the opponent, it can sometimes be to sacrifice a bit of economy to either kill the opponent or damage him enough so that your initial disadvantage can become an advantage, which is what flash did
it also has to have a "surprise factor" because if the opponent can expect it, then it will do no damage at all. do you get it? if 3 hatch all in ling doesn't kill the protoss but it kills most of his probes or his main, u are ahead. if bio rush tvp doesn't kill the protoss, but kills his natural, you're ahead. tvz is just unfair since they aren't that behind even with their cheeses
I never said the goal of cheese is to always kill the opponent - so I'm not sure what you said that. I am fully aware it is not. To sacrifice a bit of economy to either kill the opponent or damage him enough so that your initial disadvantage can become an advantage? Hardly.
There is aggressive play and management style play. By your definition aggressive play would always be cheese and management play is the ONLY way to play Zerg. Thus Jaedong is probably one of the cheesiest Zergs due to his aggressive Zerg playstyle. Is 2 hatch muta cheese vs Terran because you definitely sacrifice potential econ in order to do damage to the Terran. You pretty much HAVE to dmg the Terran, even if minimally, with your mutas or you're going to be behind. Yet currently 2 hatch muta is THE standard ZvT build, or at least was for quite a bit.
Is vulture harassing cheese, simply because if scouted it wouldn't do much dmg and could be stopped? Or is it more so that it works one way but not the other (much like the square/rectangle analogy). Was the Fantasy build (using dropship 4 vultures in main) to kill drones cheese simply because it wasn't scouted? In fact- if it's unstandard play - was the Bisu Build used to 3-0 Savior cheese simply because it was "unstandard play" DESPITE it attempting to MAXIMIZE economy?
Two gate is "unstandard play," yet is not considered cheese. By no means is 2gate standard with the exception of certain maps like Outsider. You going to tell me 2gate is cheese? Because yeah, I'll find a shitton of people on TL and another topic to show you otherwise. And proxy rax into mech isn't even cheese, it IS standard for a lot of mech builds. The pulling the SCVs as soon as he saw 12 hatch is a standard response and not cheese simply because that's the BEST move at that point in time. It's like how someone else said - if you went 9pool and you scouted the other person going 14 CC are you going to just sit around with your lings or kill your opponent? Just because SCVs are pulled doesn't mean shit. Hell you cut probes during a standard 10/12 2gate for a few seconds even so you can maximize zealot production.
the main definition of cheese is unstandard play, period, nothing to do with how "all-in" a build is. you said less than 5% would agree with him, probably less than 5% would agree with you, thats even how liquidpedia defines it
there's a difference between harassing and cheese, because harassing is standard, and every race tries to do it. and the bisu build could be considered cheese then, since it was unstandard. for example, when protosses go 12 nexus against terrans, people call it economy cheese
yeah you can probably call two gate unstandard play (although you see it a lot at D - C levels) but you won't even see it on any other map apart from outsider, just because the rush distances are so far for it to do damage.
On December 19 2009 13:24 Jonoman92 wrote: 8 rax isn't cheese, and even if it was, people who complain about cheese are just stupid noobs.
I agree with this entirely. And especially with how often Zergs do aggressive builds nowadays, 8 rax is my standard opening, although I dont mech anymore.
On December 25 2009 21:16 Lozzo.cu wrote: Flash's 8 rax is NOT cheese.
it was perfectly positioned and timed against the overlord, and while jd is supply stuck (but not really suffering from it other than scouting information) Flash goes in for the kill.
even if the bunker failed flash is still on a base with same number of scvs. not all-in at all.
Proxy barracks, bunker rush, pulling four scvs. If that isn't cheese, then what is?
Cheese is some sort of attack you commit to where you are blindly hoping to do a lot of damage through surprise and if you fail, you generally lose. In this case, the only thing Flash blindly committed to was his proxy rax. The rax was barely outside of his nat. He would hardly lose if he failed to do damage with it. He didn't commit to the attack until after he killed the overlord. To me, his attack seemed more like a timing attack than a cheese rush.
Thats a horrible definition of Cheese. Cheese should not be determined by how all-in it is. There are different types of cheese: hydra cannon break, 3 hatch ling all-in, 5 pool, Bio Rush TvP, etc that have different amounts of all-in. And since these are all cheese, you can't determine whats different just by the riskiness of it.
Cheese is simply nonstandard play, just because it wasn't risky doesn't mean its not cheese. Terran Cheese versus Zerg is not risky at all and can do potential massive damage because TvZ is imbalanced, so therefore, that does not mean 8 rax bunker rush does not qualify as cheese. Its just the imbalance of the matchup, thats all
I would say less than 5% of the entire population of Teamliquid would agree with you on that. That's completely ridiculous to say that cheese is anything nonstandard. That's like saying Corsair/Reaver is cheese, or skipping a corsair after FE is cheese, or something of that sort.
In fact, I (personally) would say he had the BEST definition of cheese seen so far. And Flash's build was not cheese whatsoever, it didn't matter what Jaedong's buildorder was - Flash would have been able to adapt no matter what, unless Jaedong did something alone the line of 4 pooling (5 pool vs Terran on HBR would be retarded). Proxy rax into mech is a very standard build order - there's no reason not to do that in fact.
They don't really have "different amounts" of all-in. Does that make sense? It's ALL-IN. That's key. If that SPECIFIC attack doesn't accomplish it's goal - you LOSE. If 3 hatch all-in ling doesn't work - you LOSE. Simple. If Bio Rush TvP doesn't work - you're going to LOSE. If hydra cannon break doesn't end up working - you LOSE. Hence the definition of "all-in.
uh actually ur wrong, cuz thats how me and lots of people define cheese, as "unstandard play". because the goal of cheese isnt always to kill the opponent, it can sometimes be to sacrifice a bit of economy to either kill the opponent or damage him enough so that your initial disadvantage can become an advantage, which is what flash did
it also has to have a "surprise factor" because if the opponent can expect it, then it will do no damage at all. do you get it? if 3 hatch all in ling doesn't kill the protoss but it kills most of his probes or his main, u are ahead. if bio rush tvp doesn't kill the protoss, but kills his natural, you're ahead. tvz is just unfair since they aren't that behind even with their cheeses
I never said the goal of cheese is to always kill the opponent - so I'm not sure what you said that. I am fully aware it is not. To sacrifice a bit of economy to either kill the opponent or damage him enough so that your initial disadvantage can become an advantage? Hardly.
There is aggressive play and management style play. By your definition aggressive play would always be cheese and management play is the ONLY way to play Zerg. Thus Jaedong is probably one of the cheesiest Zergs due to his aggressive Zerg playstyle. Is 2 hatch muta cheese vs Terran because you definitely sacrifice potential econ in order to do damage to the Terran. You pretty much HAVE to dmg the Terran, even if minimally, with your mutas or you're going to be behind. Yet currently 2 hatch muta is THE standard ZvT build, or at least was for quite a bit.
Is vulture harassing cheese, simply because if scouted it wouldn't do much dmg and could be stopped? Or is it more so that it works one way but not the other (much like the square/rectangle analogy). Was the Fantasy build (using dropship 4 vultures in main) to kill drones cheese simply because it wasn't scouted? In fact- if it's unstandard play - was the Bisu Build used to 3-0 Savior cheese simply because it was "unstandard play" DESPITE it attempting to MAXIMIZE economy?
Two gate is "unstandard play," yet is not considered cheese. By no means is 2gate standard with the exception of certain maps like Outsider. You going to tell me 2gate is cheese? Because yeah, I'll find a shitton of people on TL and another topic to show you otherwise. And proxy rax into mech isn't even cheese, it IS standard for a lot of mech builds. The pulling the SCVs as soon as he saw 12 hatch is a standard response and not cheese simply because that's the BEST move at that point in time. It's like how someone else said - if you went 9pool and you scouted the other person going 14 CC are you going to just sit around with your lings or kill your opponent? Just because SCVs are pulled doesn't mean shit. Hell you cut probes during a standard 10/12 2gate for a few seconds even so you can maximize zealot production.
the main definition of cheese is unstandard play, period, nothing to do with how "all-in" a build is. you said less than 5% would agree with him, probably less than 5% would agree with you, thats even how liquidpedia defines it
there's a difference between harassing and cheese, because harassing is standard, and every race tries to do it. and the bisu build could be considered cheese then, since it was unstandard. for example, when protosses go 12 nexus against terrans, people call it economy cheese
yeah you can probably call two gate unstandard play (although you see it a lot at D - C levels) but you won't even see it on any other map apart from outsider, just because the rush distances are so far for it to do damage.
Bullshit
Liquipedia Definition: Cheese is a pejorative expression which refers to a strategy that is highly unconventional and designed to take one's opponent by surprise. In general, cheese is nearly impossible to defeat if it is not scouted but easy to defeat if it is scouted.
Highly unconventional =/= "unstandard play." Unstandard play also does not have to take an opponent by surprise. Unstandard play also is not nearly impossible to defeat if not scouted but easy to defeat if scouted.
Oh and I'll poitn to you the TL topic simply about 2gate and not a single poster said it was cheese. And many people say that 12 nexus against terrans is not cheese. Myself included. 12 Nexus does nothing more than take advantage of the fact that most terrans will 11 rax and fail to all-in if the rush distance is long. Which is the same as 12 hatch.
1 gate tech is also cheese by your definition. Even though it is EASILY scouted. So is 2gate. None of these meet the criteria of liquipedia.
What flash did there was 7 Proxy Barracks, pulled out SCVs along with Marines to attack at Jaedong's natural AND bunker rushed. If that's not the definition of a 'cheese' I don't know what is.
On December 28 2009 00:27 Xiphos wrote: What flash did there was 7 Proxy Barracks, pulled out SCVs along with Marines to attack at Jaedong's natural AND bunker rushed. If that's not the definition of a 'cheese' I don't know what is.
Cheese: 1. -a. A solid food prepared from the pressed curd of milk, often seasoned and aged. -b. A molded mass of this substance. 2. Something resembling this substance in shape or consistency.
On December 28 2009 00:27 Xiphos wrote: What flash did there was 7 Proxy Barracks, pulled out SCVs along with Marines to attack at Jaedong's natural AND bunker rushed. If that's not the definition of a 'cheese' I don't know what is.
Cheese: 1. -a. A solid food prepared from the pressed curd of milk, often seasoned and aged. -b. A molded mass of this substance. 2. Something resembling this substance in shape or consistency.
12hatch just doesnt work anymore even standard 10 rax u can presure zerg early on with an scv and marine but the early scout would let zerg kno what was coming
EPT
![[image loading]](http://www.scriptoriumdaily.com/disjectamembra/wp-content/photos/cheese_oh_cheese.jpg)
and still they complain.![[image loading]](http://www.repdepot.net/img/thumbs/27034.jpg)
