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On December 25 2009 21:16 Lozzo.cu wrote:
Flash's 8 rax is NOT cheese.
it was perfectly positioned and timed against the overlord, and while jd is supply stuck (but not really suffering from it other than scouting information) Flash goes in for the kill.
even if the bunker failed flash is still on a base with same number of scvs. not all-in at all.
Which 8rax are you talking about? Flash just beat Jaedong with a 7rax is that what ur talking about?
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Flash's build is cheese. 7rax, cutting SCVs, taking advantage of standard "safe" economic play.
... not that there is anything wrong with that 
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I don't think that it was cheese, in my opinion. The way Flash played it made it seem more like a timing attack aimed at sniping the overlord that was vulnerable because of the different terrain of New Heartbreak Ridge. The forward barracks at 7 capitalized on that timing window and was placed just outside of his natural to avoid the scouting path. That's all that Flash wanted to prove, and he risked absolutely nothing. He'd have consolidated and been in a good position for the midgame if he hadn't scouted the 12hatch. At that point he realized that the game was simply over, committed his forces to a bunker rush, and cashed in.
To me, at that point with the overlord sniped, it was the same thing as if a Zerg player went 9pool and then scouted a Terran going 14cc. No reason to twiddle your thumbs and let the Terran fortify himself, just waltz into his base, kill all his doodz, and collect your build order win.
Like a few people said, it was amazing preparation.. sort of like a powerful novelty refuting an opening variation in chess. Since he risked nothing, it was the kind of thing that makes one wonder if the map, or even the matchup, is imbalanced. At least we know that it forces Zergs to switch things up.
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If 8 rax is cheese 9pool is cheese. You take a slight hit to your economy to push units out faster than if you go for a more economical based build. I don't see 8rax as cheese at all, aggressive and riskier but not cheese.
Even if it is cheese who gives a shit it's strong vs a 12hatch opening by zerg especially if you get that first overlord.
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United States11393 Posts
On December 26 2009 12:08 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:
I don't think that it was cheese, in my opinion. The way Flash played it made it seem more like a timing attack aimed at sniping the overlord that was vulnerable because of the different terrain of New Heartbreak Ridge. The forward barracks at 7 capitalized on that timing window and was placed just outside of his natural to avoid the scouting path. That's all that Flash wanted to prove, and he risked absolutely nothing. He'd have consolidated and been in a good position for the midgame if he hadn't scouted the 12hatch. At that point he realized that the game was simply over, committed his forces to a bunker rush, and cashed in.
To me, at that point with the overlord sniped, it was the same thing as if a Zerg player went 9pool and then scouted a Terran going 14cc. No reason to twiddle your thumbs and let the Terran fortify himself, just waltz into his base, kill all his doodz, and collect your build order win.
Like a few people said, it was amazing preparation.. sort of like a powerful novelty refuting an opening variation in chess. Since he risked nothing, it was the kind of thing that makes one wonder if the map, or even the matchup, is imbalanced. At least we know that it forces Zergs to switch things up.
On December 26 2009 11:32 IdrA wrote:
and what flash did is obviously cheese, 7 rax and pulling 4 scvs? it doesnt really matter if it was a good decision or planned out or what, he was going for a quick kill and if it had failed he would have lost. that kind of build IS what cheese is. the fact that it was really likely to work just means its a good cheese.
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On December 26 2009 05:32 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2009 02:53 dasanivan wrote:
Way too many people arguing about what cheese is without a primary source. Research it and maybe people will stop saying you're wrong. I think part of it is that "cheese" only really has a stigma against it outside Korea. Notice that the equivalent term in progamer interviews is translated as "strategic play". That doesn't have the same bad connotations.
Its because its a interview thats going to be viewed by the public. Of course they have to use terms like that. There are words for stuff like cheese and all in builds in korean that have negative connatations.
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On December 26 2009 12:38 Harem wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2009 11:32 IdrA wrote:
and what flash did is obviously cheese, 7 rax and pulling 4 scvs? it doesnt really matter if it was a good decision or planned out or what, he was going for a quick kill and if it had failed he would have lost. that kind of build IS what cheese is. the fact that it was really likely to work just means its a good cheese.
I know on TL it's heretical not to immediately defer to IdrA's wisdom, but I stick by what I wrote.
On December 26 2009 12:08 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:
I don't think that it was cheese, in my opinion. The way Flash played it made it seem more like a timing attack aimed at sniping the overlord that was vulnerable because of the different terrain of New Heartbreak Ridge. The forward barracks at 7 capitalized on that timing window and was placed just outside of his natural to avoid the scouting path. That's all that Flash wanted to prove, and he risked absolutely nothing. He'd have consolidated and been in a good position for the midgame if he hadn't scouted the 12hatch. At that point he realized that the game was simply over, committed his forces to a bunker rush, and cashed in.
To me, at that point with the overlord sniped, it was the same thing as if a Zerg player went 9pool and then scouted a Terran going 14cc. No reason to twiddle your thumbs and let the Terran fortify himself, just waltz into his base, kill all his doodz, and collect your build order win.
Like a few people said, it was amazing preparation.. sort of like a powerful novelty refuting an opening variation in chess. Since he risked nothing, it was the kind of thing that makes one wonder if the map, or even the matchup, is imbalanced. At least we know that it forces Zergs to switch things up.
I don't consider this cheese the same way I don't consider 9pool autowinning against 12hatch or 14cc to be cheesy. Flash only moved out because he had a build order win--simply, the overlord snipe decisively magnified the power of a bunker rush. Comparison to a standard 8rax bunker rush seems irrelevant.
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lol at citing idra. as if here's what idra has to say, and that's the end of it.
never mind flash waiting for the nat hatch to finish and then go build the bunker or that the "proxy" barracks was just outside flash's own nat.
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I think everyone should realize that Koreans only use the term "cheese" when they're discussing SCV + marine rushes.
I have no idea how it went on to mean anything else, and it's just weird watching people talk about Protoss and Zerg "cheese" builds.
If you're going to argue semantics you should think about the origins of the word!! Now I realize that the meaning of words can evolve across languages and whatever, but if nobody has agreed on a meaning, why not just go back to basics and refer to SCV + Marine rushes only as "cheese?"
There's a term for all-in builds that isn't "cheese." They're called "all-in."
I wrote this as I watched Iris vs Perfectman live. Kingdom was talking about Iris and the possibility of him cheese rushing the 12 nexus after he saw it. Notice Iris had not proxy raxed, nor did he prepare an all-in build. It's strictly used by Koreans when discussing pulling SCVs to accompany marines to rush, whether or not it was planned.
I propose that we accept this meaning and be done with it.
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hmm, i did a little more research and after a couple of pages involving nothing but scv + marine rushes, i found a little korean thread here. http://ruliweb.nate.com/mypi/bread.htm?id=jaki5525&table=guild_star&page=12&sort=reply&num=1175
even the koreans seem somewhat unsure of the origin of the meaning, but in general there were three theories: one was that the strategy was dirty like cheese, something you could sniff out. the next was that it is a shortening of cheater's, and the third was that the strategy is as easy to pull off as eating a small piece of cheese. while most seem to agree that scv+marines is THE cheese rush, others disagree that the term is so exclusive.
the last few replies in the thread include these posts:
"Even if it's not a marine+scv rush, in zerg vs protoss if you do hardcore zealots [2 gate all zeals] and send a bunch of probes along --;; this is also called a cheese rush."
"... so in fact a cheese rush isn't exclusive to terran..."
and then
"-_-; The meaning, that it is as easy as eating a small piece of cheese is correct -_-; There were message board posts by Ongamenet's Kim Chang Sun and Commentator Um Jae Gyung at one point. You'll indeed be able to find that they wrote this if you search. But these days it seems people are taking it as the second meaning, that it's "cheater's rush."
The thread originates from 2003.
In general everything else, including a 2004-5 starcraft book by um jae kyung seems to point to 7, 8, rax marine + scv as the definition of cheese.
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On December 26 2009 11:10 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2009 02:30 AzureEye wrote:On December 25 2009 21:54 Qatol wrote:On December 25 2009 21:41 De4ngus wrote:On December 25 2009 21:16 Lozzo.cu wrote:
Flash's 8 rax is NOT cheese.
it was perfectly positioned and timed against the overlord, and while jd is supply stuck (but not really suffering from it other than scouting information) Flash goes in for the kill.
even if the bunker failed flash is still on a base with same number of scvs. not all-in at all. Proxy barracks, bunker rush, pulling four scvs. If that isn't cheese, then what is? Cheese is some sort of attack you commit to where you are blindly hoping to do a lot of damage through surprise and if you fail, you generally lose. In this case, the only thing Flash blindly committed to was his proxy rax. The rax was barely outside of his nat. He would hardly lose if he failed to do damage with it. He didn't commit to the attack until after he killed the overlord. To me, his attack seemed more like a timing attack than a cheese rush. Thats a horrible definition of Cheese. Cheese should not be determined by how all-in it is. There are different types of cheese: hydra cannon break, 3 hatch ling all-in, 5 pool, Bio Rush TvP, etc that have different amounts of all-in. And since these are all cheese, you can't determine whats different just by the riskiness of it. Cheese is simply nonstandard play, just because it wasn't risky doesn't mean its not cheese. Terran Cheese versus Zerg is not risky at all and can do potential massive damage because TvZ is imbalanced, so therefore, that does not mean 8 rax bunker rush does not qualify as cheese. Its just the imbalance of the matchup, thats all I would say less than 5% of the entire population of Teamliquid would agree with you on that. That's completely ridiculous to say that cheese is anything nonstandard. That's like saying Corsair/Reaver is cheese, or skipping a corsair after FE is cheese, or something of that sort. In fact, I (personally) would say he had the BEST definition of cheese seen so far. And Flash's build was not cheese whatsoever, it didn't matter what Jaedong's buildorder was - Flash would have been able to adapt no matter what, unless Jaedong did something alone the line of 4 pooling (5 pool vs Terran on HBR would be retarded). Proxy rax into mech is a very standard build order - there's no reason not to do that in fact. They don't really have "different amounts" of all-in. Does that make sense? It's ALL-IN. That's key. If that SPECIFIC attack doesn't accomplish it's goal - you LOSE. If 3 hatch all-in ling doesn't work - you LOSE. Simple. If Bio Rush TvP doesn't work - you're going to LOSE. If hydra cannon break doesn't end up working - you LOSE. Hence the definition of "all-in.
uh actually ur wrong, cuz thats how me and lots of people define cheese, as "unstandard play". because the goal of cheese isnt always to kill the opponent, it can sometimes be to sacrifice a bit of economy to either kill the opponent or damage him enough so that your initial disadvantage can become an advantage, which is what flash did
it also has to have a "surprise factor" because if the opponent can expect it, then it will do no damage at all. do you get it? if 3 hatch all in ling doesn't kill the protoss but it kills most of his probes or his main, u are ahead. if bio rush tvp doesn't kill the protoss, but kills his natural, you're ahead. tvz is just unfair since they aren't that behind even with their cheeses
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On December 26 2009 15:17 saltywet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2009 11:10 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 26 2009 02:30 AzureEye wrote:On December 25 2009 21:54 Qatol wrote:On December 25 2009 21:41 De4ngus wrote:On December 25 2009 21:16 Lozzo.cu wrote:
Flash's 8 rax is NOT cheese.
it was perfectly positioned and timed against the overlord, and while jd is supply stuck (but not really suffering from it other than scouting information) Flash goes in for the kill.
even if the bunker failed flash is still on a base with same number of scvs. not all-in at all. Proxy barracks, bunker rush, pulling four scvs. If that isn't cheese, then what is? Cheese is some sort of attack you commit to where you are blindly hoping to do a lot of damage through surprise and if you fail, you generally lose. In this case, the only thing Flash blindly committed to was his proxy rax. The rax was barely outside of his nat. He would hardly lose if he failed to do damage with it. He didn't commit to the attack until after he killed the overlord. To me, his attack seemed more like a timing attack than a cheese rush. Thats a horrible definition of Cheese. Cheese should not be determined by how all-in it is. There are different types of cheese: hydra cannon break, 3 hatch ling all-in, 5 pool, Bio Rush TvP, etc that have different amounts of all-in. And since these are all cheese, you can't determine whats different just by the riskiness of it. Cheese is simply nonstandard play, just because it wasn't risky doesn't mean its not cheese. Terran Cheese versus Zerg is not risky at all and can do potential massive damage because TvZ is imbalanced, so therefore, that does not mean 8 rax bunker rush does not qualify as cheese. Its just the imbalance of the matchup, thats all I would say less than 5% of the entire population of Teamliquid would agree with you on that. That's completely ridiculous to say that cheese is anything nonstandard. That's like saying Corsair/Reaver is cheese, or skipping a corsair after FE is cheese, or something of that sort. In fact, I (personally) would say he had the BEST definition of cheese seen so far. And Flash's build was not cheese whatsoever, it didn't matter what Jaedong's buildorder was - Flash would have been able to adapt no matter what, unless Jaedong did something alone the line of 4 pooling (5 pool vs Terran on HBR would be retarded). Proxy rax into mech is a very standard build order - there's no reason not to do that in fact. They don't really have "different amounts" of all-in. Does that make sense? It's ALL-IN. That's key. If that SPECIFIC attack doesn't accomplish it's goal - you LOSE. If 3 hatch all-in ling doesn't work - you LOSE. Simple. If Bio Rush TvP doesn't work - you're going to LOSE. If hydra cannon break doesn't end up working - you LOSE. Hence the definition of "all-in. uh actually ur wrong, cuz thats how me and lots of people define cheese, as "unstandard play". because the goal of cheese isnt always to kill the opponent, it can sometimes be to sacrifice a bit of economy to either kill the opponent or damage him enough so that your initial disadvantage can become an advantage, which is what flash did it also has to have a "surprise factor" because if the opponent can expect it, then it will do no damage at all. do you get it? if 3 hatch all in ling doesn't kill the protoss but it kills most of his probes or his main, u are ahead. if bio rush tvp doesn't kill the protoss, but kills his natural, you're ahead. tvz is just unfair since they aren't that behind even with their cheeses
I never said the goal of cheese is to always kill the opponent - so I'm not sure what you said that. I am fully aware it is not. To sacrifice a bit of economy to either kill the opponent or damage him enough so that your initial disadvantage can become an advantage? Hardly.
There is aggressive play and management style play. By your definition aggressive play would always be cheese and management play is the ONLY way to play Zerg. Thus Jaedong is probably one of the cheesiest Zergs due to his aggressive Zerg playstyle. Is 2 hatch muta cheese vs Terran because you definitely sacrifice potential econ in order to do damage to the Terran. You pretty much HAVE to dmg the Terran, even if minimally, with your mutas or you're going to be behind. Yet currently 2 hatch muta is THE standard ZvT build, or at least was for quite a bit.
Is vulture harassing cheese, simply because if scouted it wouldn't do much dmg and could be stopped? Or is it more so that it works one way but not the other (much like the square/rectangle analogy). Was the Fantasy build (using dropship 4 vultures in main) to kill drones cheese simply because it wasn't scouted? In fact- if it's unstandard play - was the Bisu Build used to 3-0 Savior cheese simply because it was "unstandard play" DESPITE it attempting to MAXIMIZE economy?
Two gate is "unstandard play," yet is not considered cheese. By no means is 2gate standard with the exception of certain maps like Outsider. You going to tell me 2gate is cheese? Because yeah, I'll find a shitton of people on TL and another topic to show you otherwise. And proxy rax into mech isn't even cheese, it IS standard for a lot of mech builds. The pulling the SCVs as soon as he saw 12 hatch is a standard response and not cheese simply because that's the BEST move at that point in time. It's like how someone else said - if you went 9pool and you scouted the other person going 14 CC are you going to just sit around with your lings or kill your opponent? Just because SCVs are pulled doesn't mean shit. Hell you cut probes during a standard 10/12 2gate for a few seconds even so you can maximize zealot production.
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Simply put, cheese is something gay. Cannon rush - Gay. 4 pool - Gay. 7 rax into bunker rush - Gay. It doesn't have to be all in, it doesn't have to be blind, it doesn't mean you will die if it fails. Cheese is just something non-standard that has the aim of crippling your opponent enough that the game will shortly end afterwards.
Also, when did 9 pool turn into a cheese build?
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ah yes. i feel so vindicated after reading flash's interview.
idra might be the foreigner nerdking, but i believe flash has a better insight on his build and how it can work against jaedong.
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7 proxy rax is cheese. It's a definition, no point elaborating it.
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On December 26 2009 16:26 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2009 15:17 saltywet wrote:On December 26 2009 11:10 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 26 2009 02:30 AzureEye wrote:On December 25 2009 21:54 Qatol wrote:On December 25 2009 21:41 De4ngus wrote:On December 25 2009 21:16 Lozzo.cu wrote:
Flash's 8 rax is NOT cheese.
it was perfectly positioned and timed against the overlord, and while jd is supply stuck (but not really suffering from it other than scouting information) Flash goes in for the kill.
even if the bunker failed flash is still on a base with same number of scvs. not all-in at all. Proxy barracks, bunker rush, pulling four scvs. If that isn't cheese, then what is? Cheese is some sort of attack you commit to where you are blindly hoping to do a lot of damage through surprise and if you fail, you generally lose. In this case, the only thing Flash blindly committed to was his proxy rax. The rax was barely outside of his nat. He would hardly lose if he failed to do damage with it. He didn't commit to the attack until after he killed the overlord. To me, his attack seemed more like a timing attack than a cheese rush. Thats a horrible definition of Cheese. Cheese should not be determined by how all-in it is. There are different types of cheese: hydra cannon break, 3 hatch ling all-in, 5 pool, Bio Rush TvP, etc that have different amounts of all-in. And since these are all cheese, you can't determine whats different just by the riskiness of it. Cheese is simply nonstandard play, just because it wasn't risky doesn't mean its not cheese. Terran Cheese versus Zerg is not risky at all and can do potential massive damage because TvZ is imbalanced, so therefore, that does not mean 8 rax bunker rush does not qualify as cheese. Its just the imbalance of the matchup, thats all I would say less than 5% of the entire population of Teamliquid would agree with you on that. That's completely ridiculous to say that cheese is anything nonstandard. That's like saying Corsair/Reaver is cheese, or skipping a corsair after FE is cheese, or something of that sort. In fact, I (personally) would say he had the BEST definition of cheese seen so far. And Flash's build was not cheese whatsoever, it didn't matter what Jaedong's buildorder was - Flash would have been able to adapt no matter what, unless Jaedong did something alone the line of 4 pooling (5 pool vs Terran on HBR would be retarded). Proxy rax into mech is a very standard build order - there's no reason not to do that in fact. They don't really have "different amounts" of all-in. Does that make sense? It's ALL-IN. That's key. If that SPECIFIC attack doesn't accomplish it's goal - you LOSE. If 3 hatch all-in ling doesn't work - you LOSE. Simple. If Bio Rush TvP doesn't work - you're going to LOSE. If hydra cannon break doesn't end up working - you LOSE. Hence the definition of "all-in. uh actually ur wrong, cuz thats how me and lots of people define cheese, as "unstandard play". because the goal of cheese isnt always to kill the opponent, it can sometimes be to sacrifice a bit of economy to either kill the opponent or damage him enough so that your initial disadvantage can become an advantage, which is what flash did it also has to have a "surprise factor" because if the opponent can expect it, then it will do no damage at all. do you get it? if 3 hatch all in ling doesn't kill the protoss but it kills most of his probes or his main, u are ahead. if bio rush tvp doesn't kill the protoss, but kills his natural, you're ahead. tvz is just unfair since they aren't that behind even with their cheeses I never said the goal of cheese is to always kill the opponent - so I'm not sure what you said that. I am fully aware it is not. To sacrifice a bit of economy to either kill the opponent or damage him enough so that your initial disadvantage can become an advantage? Hardly. There is aggressive play and management style play. By your definition aggressive play would always be cheese and management play is the ONLY way to play Zerg. Thus Jaedong is probably one of the cheesiest Zergs due to his aggressive Zerg playstyle. Is 2 hatch muta cheese vs Terran because you definitely sacrifice potential econ in order to do damage to the Terran. You pretty much HAVE to dmg the Terran, even if minimally, with your mutas or you're going to be behind. Yet currently 2 hatch muta is THE standard ZvT build, or at least was for quite a bit. Is vulture harassing cheese, simply because if scouted it wouldn't do much dmg and could be stopped? Or is it more so that it works one way but not the other (much like the square/rectangle analogy). Was the Fantasy build (using dropship 4 vultures in main) to kill drones cheese simply because it wasn't scouted? In fact- if it's unstandard play - was the Bisu Build used to 3-0 Savior cheese simply because it was "unstandard play" DESPITE it attempting to MAXIMIZE economy? Two gate is "unstandard play," yet is not considered cheese. By no means is 2gate standard with the exception of certain maps like Outsider. You going to tell me 2gate is cheese? Because yeah, I'll find a shitton of people on TL and another topic to show you otherwise. And proxy rax into mech isn't even cheese, it IS standard for a lot of mech builds. The pulling the SCVs as soon as he saw 12 hatch is a standard response and not cheese simply because that's the BEST move at that point in time. It's like how someone else said - if you went 9pool and you scouted the other person going 14 CC are you going to just sit around with your lings or kill your opponent? Just because SCVs are pulled doesn't mean shit. Hell you cut probes during a standard 10/12 2gate for a few seconds even so you can maximize zealot production.
the main definition of cheese is unstandard play, period, nothing to do with how "all-in" a build is. you said less than 5% would agree with him, probably less than 5% would agree with you, thats even how liquidpedia defines it
there's a difference between harassing and cheese, because harassing is standard, and every race tries to do it. and the bisu build could be considered cheese then, since it was unstandard. for example, when protosses go 12 nexus against terrans, people call it economy cheese
yeah you can probably call two gate unstandard play (although you see it a lot at D - C levels) but you won't even see it on any other map apart from outsider, just because the rush distances are so far for it to do damage.
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On December 19 2009 13:24 Jonoman92 wrote:
8 rax isn't cheese, and even if it was, people who complain about cheese are just stupid noobs.
I agree with this entirely. And especially with how often Zergs do aggressive builds nowadays, 8 rax is my standard opening, although I dont mech anymore.
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On December 27 2009 01:40 saltywet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2009 16:26 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 26 2009 15:17 saltywet wrote:On December 26 2009 11:10 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 26 2009 02:30 AzureEye wrote:On December 25 2009 21:54 Qatol wrote:On December 25 2009 21:41 De4ngus wrote:On December 25 2009 21:16 Lozzo.cu wrote:
Flash's 8 rax is NOT cheese.
it was perfectly positioned and timed against the overlord, and while jd is supply stuck (but not really suffering from it other than scouting information) Flash goes in for the kill.
even if the bunker failed flash is still on a base with same number of scvs. not all-in at all. Proxy barracks, bunker rush, pulling four scvs. If that isn't cheese, then what is? Cheese is some sort of attack you commit to where you are blindly hoping to do a lot of damage through surprise and if you fail, you generally lose. In this case, the only thing Flash blindly committed to was his proxy rax. The rax was barely outside of his nat. He would hardly lose if he failed to do damage with it. He didn't commit to the attack until after he killed the overlord. To me, his attack seemed more like a timing attack than a cheese rush. Thats a horrible definition of Cheese. Cheese should not be determined by how all-in it is. There are different types of cheese: hydra cannon break, 3 hatch ling all-in, 5 pool, Bio Rush TvP, etc that have different amounts of all-in. And since these are all cheese, you can't determine whats different just by the riskiness of it. Cheese is simply nonstandard play, just because it wasn't risky doesn't mean its not cheese. Terran Cheese versus Zerg is not risky at all and can do potential massive damage because TvZ is imbalanced, so therefore, that does not mean 8 rax bunker rush does not qualify as cheese. Its just the imbalance of the matchup, thats all I would say less than 5% of the entire population of Teamliquid would agree with you on that. That's completely ridiculous to say that cheese is anything nonstandard. That's like saying Corsair/Reaver is cheese, or skipping a corsair after FE is cheese, or something of that sort. In fact, I (personally) would say he had the BEST definition of cheese seen so far. And Flash's build was not cheese whatsoever, it didn't matter what Jaedong's buildorder was - Flash would have been able to adapt no matter what, unless Jaedong did something alone the line of 4 pooling (5 pool vs Terran on HBR would be retarded). Proxy rax into mech is a very standard build order - there's no reason not to do that in fact. They don't really have "different amounts" of all-in. Does that make sense? It's ALL-IN. That's key. If that SPECIFIC attack doesn't accomplish it's goal - you LOSE. If 3 hatch all-in ling doesn't work - you LOSE. Simple. If Bio Rush TvP doesn't work - you're going to LOSE. If hydra cannon break doesn't end up working - you LOSE. Hence the definition of "all-in. uh actually ur wrong, cuz thats how me and lots of people define cheese, as "unstandard play". because the goal of cheese isnt always to kill the opponent, it can sometimes be to sacrifice a bit of economy to either kill the opponent or damage him enough so that your initial disadvantage can become an advantage, which is what flash did it also has to have a "surprise factor" because if the opponent can expect it, then it will do no damage at all. do you get it? if 3 hatch all in ling doesn't kill the protoss but it kills most of his probes or his main, u are ahead. if bio rush tvp doesn't kill the protoss, but kills his natural, you're ahead. tvz is just unfair since they aren't that behind even with their cheeses I never said the goal of cheese is to always kill the opponent - so I'm not sure what you said that. I am fully aware it is not. To sacrifice a bit of economy to either kill the opponent or damage him enough so that your initial disadvantage can become an advantage? Hardly. There is aggressive play and management style play. By your definition aggressive play would always be cheese and management play is the ONLY way to play Zerg. Thus Jaedong is probably one of the cheesiest Zergs due to his aggressive Zerg playstyle. Is 2 hatch muta cheese vs Terran because you definitely sacrifice potential econ in order to do damage to the Terran. You pretty much HAVE to dmg the Terran, even if minimally, with your mutas or you're going to be behind. Yet currently 2 hatch muta is THE standard ZvT build, or at least was for quite a bit. Is vulture harassing cheese, simply because if scouted it wouldn't do much dmg and could be stopped? Or is it more so that it works one way but not the other (much like the square/rectangle analogy). Was the Fantasy build (using dropship 4 vultures in main) to kill drones cheese simply because it wasn't scouted? In fact- if it's unstandard play - was the Bisu Build used to 3-0 Savior cheese simply because it was "unstandard play" DESPITE it attempting to MAXIMIZE economy? Two gate is "unstandard play," yet is not considered cheese. By no means is 2gate standard with the exception of certain maps like Outsider. You going to tell me 2gate is cheese? Because yeah, I'll find a shitton of people on TL and another topic to show you otherwise. And proxy rax into mech isn't even cheese, it IS standard for a lot of mech builds. The pulling the SCVs as soon as he saw 12 hatch is a standard response and not cheese simply because that's the BEST move at that point in time. It's like how someone else said - if you went 9pool and you scouted the other person going 14 CC are you going to just sit around with your lings or kill your opponent? Just because SCVs are pulled doesn't mean shit. Hell you cut probes during a standard 10/12 2gate for a few seconds even so you can maximize zealot production. the main definition of cheese is unstandard play, period, nothing to do with how "all-in" a build is. you said less than 5% would agree with him, probably less than 5% would agree with you, thats even how liquidpedia defines it there's a difference between harassing and cheese, because harassing is standard, and every race tries to do it. and the bisu build could be considered cheese then, since it was unstandard. for example, when protosses go 12 nexus against terrans, people call it economy cheese yeah you can probably call two gate unstandard play (although you see it a lot at D - C levels) but you won't even see it on any other map apart from outsider, just because the rush distances are so far for it to do damage.
Bullshit
Liquipedia Definition: Cheese is a pejorative expression which refers to a strategy that is highly unconventional and designed to take one's opponent by surprise. In general, cheese is nearly impossible to defeat if it is not scouted but easy to defeat if it is scouted.
Highly unconventional =/= "unstandard play." Unstandard play also does not have to take an opponent by surprise. Unstandard play also is not nearly impossible to defeat if not scouted but easy to defeat if scouted.
Oh and I'll poitn to you the TL topic simply about 2gate and not a single poster said it was cheese. And many people say that 12 nexus against terrans is not cheese. Myself included. 12 Nexus does nothing more than take advantage of the fact that most terrans will 11 rax and fail to all-in if the rush distance is long. Which is the same as 12 hatch.
1 gate tech is also cheese by your definition. Even though it is EASILY scouted. So is 2gate. None of these meet the criteria of liquipedia.
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On December 19 2009 14:01 2minutevictory wrote:
it's cheese if it works
seriously did you create this account just to post this =p
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Belgium9949 Posts
i hate this type of thread
the term 'cheese' has never been precisely defined, of course people are gonna have 10 million interpretations
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EPT
