|
On October 12 2009 21:48 ProoM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2009 15:07 Ian Ian Ian wrote:
I'm an awful player and I could stll bet that I could eliminate enough units from an enemy zerg to balance the cost of teching to it.
I don't even really understand why everyone complains so much about microing it :s
I recently started meleeing after playing alot of UMS and I am astounded by the APM of some players, but when watching fpvods of progamers I am not impressed by their battle micro at all, it's really not that great and imo, could use improvement.
<grabs flame shield> because the new style of gameplay requires more macro than micro. It doesn't matter if u lose 1 more unit if u have 5 more because of that coming up.
If really small amounts of units being lost aren't too important, then it's not like the units you lose for the cost of DA will kill you either. And it's not that big of a cost, and if it comes after storm, your not really losing anything, and against zerg, which is bio heavy, I can't see you not making use of it.
And raptor really gets the point across that I was trying to make. Toss is so much a macro game right now, if your honestly complaining about mael because you need micro to use it, then well.. :/ And imo, progamers shouldn't be able to use that excuse. With their APM around 300 and they can't find time to cast mael, somethings wrong.
|
On October 13 2009 01:12 KnightOfNi wrote:
If you've had a chance to watch several of Sangho's games, he is one of the few progamers that actually uses the big red blobs on a semi-regular basis. I've seen 3 of his games where he has made DAs and if I recall he ended up going 2-1 in those games. The thing about using dark archons is that your opponent CANNOT see them if you really want them to be useful against the muta batch - if the zerg sees it then he just won't make the muta batch lol, instead he will just grab another expo. Its a difficult unit to predict if the metagame will really change around, but I see the validity of your point and it would be awesome to see mind controlled ultras or huge drops being repelled by a giant mael on all of the ovies coming in :D.
On October 13 2009 01:20 Neverborn wrote:
Other people have touched on this, but it can't really be a "metagame" shift because if protoss started doing DA every game, zerg would just stop making the mutas at that timing and then protoss would be behind.
It can never be a standard opening because if you know it's coming, it's too easy to counter.
If zergs don't make any mutas to snipe templars, the protoss will have plenty of storms ready. Mass hydra certainly has a hard time if there are so many HTs left (that's why the muta switch was introduced, you'd rather have 9 mutas than 12-15 hydras, even if the mutas only kill a few HTs and die in the process). Also, toss doesn't have to merge all his HTs after casting if they are safe from mutas, and can instead pull them back and spend the gas on goons/reavers. Of course this works best against mass hydra armies, because against any ling heavy army you'd want to have more archons, while archons suck against hydras.
Imo DA encourages fairly defensive lurker/ling (aiming for map control) from the zergs side, because both mutas and hydras have trouble against DA supported armies. Lurkers are so fat that you rarely can maelstom many of them, and maelstrom is less effective on lings too imo. Also, once the lurkers are set up, maelstrom does nothing. So you'd need a good gameplan that prepares for lurk/ling. But even if all the DA achieves is pushing the zerg into using lurk/ling (or any other single strat), without granting any player a decent advantage, it would definately help toss. Having to prepare for a single unit composition only makes it much easier to figure out a way to beat it.
|
Re: the DA, an extremely high level of control would be required though
Re: Today's game of Jangbi vs Roro
+ Show Spoiler +Jangbi went early 1 archon 1 DA but pushed everything out without any defence at home (not even cannons) along his mining lines.
As a result Roro with mutas just flew in, raped probes at the nat, flew to the main and raped again, went around to snipe the 3rd base attempt, and came back for more probe goodness. The DA didnt manage to get off a maelstrom as it was stuck outside in the field. No templar were defending and after the 1st muta harass jangbi's probecount suffered such that he could either macro or make cannons, and he chose to maintain his push and ultimately lost to a group of repeatedly marauding mutas
DAs seem like the next step but the clunkiness has to be solved by Protosses with extremely keen gamesense, control and positioning. If a mael+storm actually rapes a ctrl group of mutas however that can indeed be gamechanging.
|
On October 13 2009 02:22 Ian Ian Ian wrote:
If really small amounts of units being lost aren't too important, then it's not like the units you lose for the cost of DA will kill you either. And it's not that big of a cost, and if it comes after storm, your not really losing anything, and against zerg, which is bio heavy, I can't see you not making use of it.
And raptor really gets the point across that I was trying to make. Toss is so much a macro game right now, if your honestly complaining about mael because you need micro to use it, then well.. :/ And imo, progamers shouldn't be able to use that excuse. With their APM around 300 and they can't find time to cast mael, somethings wrong.
Have you ever played protoss before? Seriously.
You're acting as if having 300 apm is no big deal. Go play some melee games and not UMS games and you'll understand exactly what everybody is talking about.
The cost of the DA is at least 1 ht and 2 zealots. Just the HT could have netted you at least 5 hydra kills or something.
Oh, and offtopic: Protoss isn't 1a2a3a at higher levels.
I've played other races and when you're trying to micro an army (sair reaver) where you could lose 1000+ minerals and 500+ gas in 2 or 3 seconds is just as hard as say....muta micro.
Sure, people might think that you can just 1a2a3a4a5a the crap out of terrans and zergs at D ranks, but when they begin to follow that strategy against better terrans and zergs, they get crushed, hence why most protosses cap at C.
|
But the DA indirectly nets 9 muta kills plus 4 times 5 hydra kills through 2-4 saved HTs.
|
I think this could work if Dts did some damage to Z's eco. And then switching to Dark Archon for Maelstorm just in time that Mutalisk gets out but Protoss need tons of timing to pull this off because you basically have to get one Archon out to kill off the Maelstormed Mutalisk and then get ready for a Hydralisk rush with Lurker or Lings, it COULD work but not 100% at time.
|
On October 13 2009 03:41 ArcticxWolf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2009 02:22 Ian Ian Ian wrote:
If really small amounts of units being lost aren't too important, then it's not like the units you lose for the cost of DA will kill you either. And it's not that big of a cost, and if it comes after storm, your not really losing anything, and against zerg, which is bio heavy, I can't see you not making use of it.
And raptor really gets the point across that I was trying to make. Toss is so much a macro game right now, if your honestly complaining about mael because you need micro to use it, then well.. :/ And imo, progamers shouldn't be able to use that excuse. With their APM around 300 and they can't find time to cast mael, somethings wrong. Have you ever played protoss before? Seriously. You're acting as if having 300 apm is no big deal. Go play some melee games and not UMS games and you'll understand exactly what everybody is talking about. The cost of the DA is at least 1 ht and 2 zealots. Just the HT could have netted you at least 5 hydra kills or something. Oh, and offtopic: Protoss isn't 1a2a3a at higher levels. I've played other races and when you're trying to micro an army (sair reaver) where you could lose 1000+ minerals and 500+ gas in 2 or 3 seconds is just as hard as say....muta micro. Sure, people might think that you can just 1a2a3a4a5a the crap out of terrans and zergs at D ranks, but when they begin to follow that strategy against better terrans and zergs, they get crushed, hence why most protosses cap at C.
Have you ever passed an English class before? Seriously?
I have no fucking idea how you can get that I think 300 APM is no big deal out of
And imo, progamers shouldn't be able to use that excuse. With their APM around 300 and they can't find time to cast mael, somethings wrong
The point I'm trying to make is that 300 APM is a big deal, and players that can do that should surely be able to control one unit. And the fact that high level players complain about being able to micro a DA is just sad.
A DA is going to net you way more kills then a templar and 2 zealots. Hands down.. I lol @ the fact that you can't see that. In a deciding battle if you can manage to protect your templars from muta harass then that is pay off enough imo. Not to mention that if you manage to get more then one mael off, you can completely freeze another group of hydra which can be immediately targetted and by a storm that they cannot dodge.
|
On October 13 2009 04:06 Ian Ian Ian wrote:
Have you ever passed an English class before? Seriously?
Ooh, bringing out the insults now eh?
How mature...
I have no fucking idea how you can get that I think 300 APM is no big deal out of Show nested quote +And imo, progamers shouldn't be able to use that excuse. With their APM around 300 and they can't find time to cast mael, somethings wrong The point I'm trying to make is that 300 APM is a big deal, and players that can do that should surely be able to control one unit.
You have no idea how many things you have to do, even when they have 300 apm. It's proven that even JAEDONG said that it took too much micro to use queens, and i would say that DAs are along the same line... You're acting as if, oh, hi, lets press the maelstrom button in the bottom right and merrily take 20 seconds to click on the mutalisk while your whole army gets owned by hydralisks.
Storming and microing your other shit while macroing in your base while teching while thinking about your game plan while thinking strategically takes priority over a DA.
And the fact that high level players complain about being able to micro a DA is just sad.
I salute you, player who claims he is superior to jaedong.
A DA is going to net you way more kills then a templar and 2 zealots. Hands down..
kk, gl with that
A DA is going to net you way more kills then a templar and 2 zealots. Hands down.. I lol @ the fact that you can't see that. In a deciding battle if you can manage to protect your templars from muta harass then that is pay off enough imo.
I lol @ the fact that to be able to actually hit anything with maelstrom you'd be sacrificing much more than you would gain, unless you happen to get lucky and catch like, 8 mutas with your DA. Even if you did, subtract that 350 minerals and 300 gas you spent to do it, and also subtract the time that you took to actually do that, and now, perhaps the profit is less worth it.
Not to mention that if you manage to get more then one mael off, you can completely freeze another group of hydra which can be immediately targetted and by a storm that they cannot dodge.
Or, I could just cast three storms instead of 1 and still have an extra 3 zealots!
Here's a tip: Play some more melee games, try the strategy, and you'll understand why people with 300 apm can't afford to do it. I assure you that you'll either fuck up your maelstrom or spend 15-30 seconds trying to do it, then realize the zerg has 36 hydras waiting for your 2 templar with no energy for storm, 7 zealots, and 7 dragoons. oh! we can't forget the DA, which is perfectly useful against 36 hydras and can net you 12 kills, right?
Oh, and one more thing: + Show Spoiler +UMS players have ~30 apm, and they can afford to spend 20 seconds to micro one unit around because they don't have anything else to do.
EDIT: Just saw this:
On October 13 2009 03:44 spinesheath wrote:
But the DA indirectly nets 9 muta kills plus 4 times 5 hydra kills through 2-4 saved HTs.
I assure you that you will mess up one of the other 300 things you have to do in that minute, even if you successfully a) maelstrom the mutas and b) have enough dragoons to kill them before they unfreeze...because: if you use a storm, then you're saving 5 hydras, remember? If you use an archon, thats 10 hydras you're saving, remember?
|
There is no reason progamers cannot learn to control a dark archon the same way they've learned to control all the other units with which they've spent countless hours practicing their control. This has nothing to do with skill and everything to do with familiarity: protoss players regularly bring high templars with their armies, even though they are slow and easily sniped, and often miss completely when they storm. Dark archons are not slow or easily sniped, they just have a different role and it's going to take a bit before the kinks are worked out.
Also, just FYI ian has 200 apm in melee, he's just bad at it from lack of experience. Dismissing UMS players is fun until they can challenge you in melee and win, meanwhile you have absolutely no chance whatsoever vs him in diplo.
|
Another idea: can you just hide the Dark Archon inside the Shuttle so they won't find out? Dark Archon can also feedback Defilers for late game as well rendering Dark Swarm useless, they are REALLY fun to play around with actually.
|
wat @ people who think a DA is too much APM.
When the muta flock comes do you know what toss players do? They storm their hardest to try and kill them before all those HTs get picked off. That's clicking a tiny unit, pressing a hotkey, then clicking on the mutalisks or predicting where they are going, hoping to god you do enough damage to not lose the actual damaging part of your army.
A Dark Archon is much easier. You click one FAT unit that sticks out from your army with it's garish colour, press a hotkey, and then click the mutas. There is no prediction. No guessing. And if that one click works the zerg loses 1.1k min/gas. Don't people understand how unbelievably cost effective that is?
And something else a lot of people don't understand - there's not really any cost to this. You don't lose a timing window, your army doesn't magically shrink to half size. The only cost is the cost of researching maelstrom. Toss players are already making the 2 DTs required, the only difference now is that after they roam the map a little they come back and morph into a dark archon.
A progamer like Jangbi isn't trying this out just for kicks in proleague. It's something he thinks has actual merit and there's obviously a reason for that. I'm not going to say that this is the next evolution of toss gameplay, but the fact that the vast majority of people here trying to shoot this down don't even seem to understand what it takes to add in this DA is shocking.
And why do you think there needs to be any surprise element? Zerg sees DA -> Zerg doesn't make mutas. Mission accomplished. Now the footing is completely equal - toss gets to keep his HT, zerg makes lurkers instead. If the zerg made mutas, had them all raped by the DA, protoss would win every game because you can't just throw away 1k min and gas for free. Try and understand this before you shoot it down. Most of the people commenting here haven't even taken the time to think about it.
|
Ooh, bringing out the insults now eh?
How mature...
Yeah actually I was mocking you. I guess you didn't get it.
You have no idea how many things you have to do, even when they have 300 apm. It's proven that even JAEDONG said that it took too much micro to use queens, and i would say that DAs are along the same line... You're acting as if, oh, hi, lets press the maelstrom button in the bottom right and merrily take 20 seconds to click on the mutalisk while your whole army gets owned by hydralisks.
Storming and microing your other shit while macroing in your base while teching while thinking about your game plan while thinking strategically takes priority over a DA .
Sorry, I forgot that the God-King Jaedong sent out a decree about protoss players not being able to use DA's.
Just because they are both spellcasters doesn't mean they are the same.
And I feel that my experience of playing UMS games would actually help in this situation. I would find it incredibly easy to spot the muta's, grab my DA and hit them with a mael. This is due to the fact that I spend too much of my time in melee micoring my units and not enough macroing. But again, that's just experience. And I'm a bad player. If I can do it I'm sure a progamer can.
Here's a tip: Play some more melee games, try the strategy, and you'll understand why people with 300 apm can't afford to do it. I assure you that you'll either fuck up your maelstrom or spend 15-30 seconds trying to do it, then realize the zerg has 36 hydras waiting for your 2 templar with no energy for storm, 7 zealots, and 7 dragoons. oh! we can't forget the DA, which is perfectly useful against 36 hydras and can net you 12 kills, right?
Consdiering that most players follow the popular bisu build now in zvp, they have 2 dark templar's out anyways, so really the only "cost" you have to make up for is the research for mael.
Your right about my templar's having no energy though. I forgot that DA's magically sap energy from HT's and that if I didn't have a DA they'd magically have more energy even though they would've been created at the same time. Seriously, sorry for my noobiness. /end sarcasm
I assure you that you will mess up one of the other 300 things you have to do in that minute, even if you successfully a) maelstrom the mutas and b) have enough dragoons to kill them before they unfreeze...because: if you use a storm, then you're saving 5 hydras, remember? If you use an archon, thats 10 hydras you're saving, remember?
Imo saving HT's and taking out a group of muta's is worth whatever the fuck it is you are argueing for.
And intergral you flatter me, that's only on a really good day. Lol. But your point rings true, dismissing my ideas simply because I used to play UMS just shows ignorance on your part, Arctix. I'll do the same and assume your some noob because you have <20 posts. Go ignorance!
|
Russian Federation4235 Posts
People, your argument that it's laughable for a progamer to complain about maelstorm casting is really working against you. They are perfectly able to do that and yet they don't. There is a reason why.
|
And yet, they're trying. I don't think the issue of control has ever, ever been the problem with dark archons, it's always been the fact that having another storm is infinitely better. Now we're in a situation where all having that extra HT does is give mutalisks something else to kill.
|
On October 13 2009 05:30 Ian Ian Ian wrote:Yeah actually I was mocking you. I guess you didn't get it. Show nested quote +You have no idea how many things you have to do, even when they have 300 apm. It's proven that even JAEDONG said that it took too much micro to use queens, and i would say that DAs are along the same line... You're acting as if, oh, hi, lets press the maelstrom button in the bottom right and merrily take 20 seconds to click on the mutalisk while your whole army gets owned by hydralisks.
Storming and microing your other shit while macroing in your base while teching while thinking about your game plan while thinking strategically takes priority over a DA . Sorry, I forgot that the God-King Jaedong sent out a decree about protoss players not being able to use DA's. Just because they are both spellcasters doesn't mean they are the same. And I feel that my experience of playing UMS games would actually help in this situation. I would find it incredibly easy to spot the muta's, grab my DA and hit them with a mael. This is due to the fact that I spend too much of my time in melee micoring my units and not enough macroing. But again, that's just experience. And I'm a bad player. If I can do it I'm sure a progamer can. Show nested quote +Here's a tip: Play some more melee games, try the strategy, and you'll understand why people with 300 apm can't afford to do it. I assure you that you'll either fuck up your maelstrom or spend 15-30 seconds trying to do it, then realize the zerg has 36 hydras waiting for your 2 templar with no energy for storm, 7 zealots, and 7 dragoons. oh! we can't forget the DA, which is perfectly useful against 36 hydras and can net you 12 kills, right? Consdiering that most players follow the popular bisu build now in zvp, they have 2 dark templar's out anyways, so really the only "cost" you have to make up for is the research for mael. Your right about my templar's having no energy though. I forgot that DA's magically sap energy from HT's and that if I didn't have a DA they'd magically have more energy even though they would've been created at the same time. Seriously, sorry for my noobiness. /end sarcasm Show nested quote +I assure you that you will mess up one of the other 300 things you have to do in that minute, even if you successfully a) maelstrom the mutas and b) have enough dragoons to kill them before they unfreeze...because: if you use a storm, then you're saving 5 hydras, remember? If you use an archon, thats 10 hydras you're saving, remember? Imo saving HT's and taking out a group of muta's is worth whatever the fuck it is you are argueing for. And intergral you flatter me, that's only on a really good day. Lol. But your point rings true, dismissing my ideas simply because I used to play UMS just shows ignorance on your part, Arctix. I'll do the same and assume your some noob because you have <20 posts. Go ignorance!
kkk
|
Actually thinking about it, the really amazing thing about this idea, is how perfectly a protoss player can transition the usual
stargate>citadel>archive+gw>2dt's+2gw>templars+zea/goon
play into an army with 1 DA.
Think about it. Most of the time we open with this opening is to
1) stop zerg taking an easy 4th (think savior)
2) force an OL in each base, sunkens, and units
3) force research OL speed before zerg can attack/expand safely
However, nowadays, zergs are so used to it and goes 5 hatch on 3 bases, and makes sure that sunkens and ol's are up to "greet" the 2 dt's sent by the vanila protoss player to the nat and 3rd, they keep their ling/hydra count low, mass drones, and try to topple 6 gate 1 stargate protoss under the weight of 5 hatch hydra's (which works really well).
So the toss player has really 2 choices, "contain" with the dt's and go ling hunting, or suicide them for psi (lol).
But with this, i can clear my base of Ol's with goons and sairs, and morph my DA, making sure zerg wont see it till scourges/muta's are out.
With this, the "dt's presence" is still there , at the same time, protoss is getting ready for any muta harass on the ht's
Now lets think of it this way.
The DT's has paid for themselves, since they did the 3 things i mentioned earlier. So for 100 minerals and 100 gas, protoss gets an immediate benefit of being more immune to muta harass.
Now lets think of it in the long run.
If the zerg didnt get muta's and went all-ground instead? then i still have a maelstrom or two which could easily pay off my 100/100 invested by stunning a couple of hydra's.
With the 100/100 i invested, now my HT's could go for full force without any worries. I dont even have to oblige about archoning my ht's, since out-of-energy ht's are still awesome in giving the chills to Z even when placed in the base or something.
With the 100/100 i invested, i can also counter lategame ultralings+defiler since DA's are awesome for lowering defiler count
Both feedback and maelstrom has incredible range (abit less then siege tank sight) and has pretty good endgame abilities
for 100 gas and 100 minerals, i get immediate return of investments, and also tons of late game potential.
If you ask me, its the perfect transition from FE sair/dt, if only it were my standard opening.
|
I think that dark archons should probably be made a bit later than is suggested in this thread. The initial push out/muta defense only requires a very small amount of HT, getting storm and these and then pushing out to try and take your third takes priority over the dark archon. ]
It's generally around this point, where the P has kicked in fully to 2 base macro and is about to take a third that the muta switch happens. The Z will run in with their group of hydras, try and snipe the third, then if that fails they retreat, tech to lurkers, and either make a group of mutas or take another expo.
So that's the timing you should really be aiming to have the dark archon having 100 energy at and having maelstrom finished. There's no need for 200 energy until late game, it's not that useful vs Hydras. The best way to do this that I could see would be to skip getting HT energy and getting mael when you usually would, and merging two dark archons and keeping them in your natural.
Then after this getting HT energy - Maelstrom is a really, really fast upgrade. I don't know of any others that are as fast.
|
On October 13 2009 04:29 ArcticxWolf wrote:EDIT: Just saw this: Show nested quote +On October 13 2009 03:44 spinesheath wrote:
But the DA indirectly nets 9 muta kills plus 4 times 5 hydra kills through 2-4 saved HTs. I assure you that you will mess up one of the other 300 things you have to do in that minute, even if you successfully a) maelstrom the mutas and b) have enough dragoons to kill them before they unfreeze...because: if you use a storm, then you're saving 5 hydras, remember? If you use an archon, thats 10 hydras you're saving, remember?
And I assure you that you will mess up those 3 stroms you are hecticly casting on those mutas that are about to snipe your 4 HTs will kill 2 of your HTs and damage half your army, while the zerg still snipes 1 HT and escapes at 50% health. Your leftover HT is at 5 energy and can't be morphed into an archon because there is none of his fellow templars around.
At that point in the game you rarely have any goons, and if you have some, it would most likely be a completely different build that barely has room for early DAs. Instead you usually have at least 1 archon in your army from earlier.
Also notice that 4 x 5 = 20, which is more than 10, and especially more than 5. Don't try to counter my statement with one that actually supports mine.
|
|
|
Just want to mention that Kwark displayed a timing that worked to counter the Muta switch on stream with ret. However, he ended up losing shortly after due to a lack of units following his first army. I'm not sure if it was solely because of getting the DA's or not, but it was really satisfying to see all 10-11 mutas just die to a storm xP. And yea, ret didn't see the DA until it was too late.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
