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Ian Ian Ian
913 Posts
I don't even really understand why everyone complains so much about microing it :s I recently started meleeing after playing alot of UMS and I am astounded by the APM of some players, but when watching fpvods of progamers I am not impressed by their battle micro at all, it's really not that great and imo, could use improvement. <grabs flame shield> | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On October 12 2009 15:07 Ian Ian Ian wrote: I'm an awful player and I could stll bet that I could eliminate enough units from an enemy zerg to balance the cost of teching to it. I don't even really understand why everyone complains so much about microing it :s I recently started meleeing after playing alot of UMS and I am astounded by the APM of some players, but when watching fpvods of progamers I am not impressed by their battle micro at all, it's really not that great and imo, could use improvement. <grabs flame shield> Then show it in a replay. You comment about your skill, so I'll take it you don't understand timings too well. A protoss on 2 base is fairly gas starved (despite still having more gas than they used to play off the old builds). Building a dark archon and maelstorm would have to take priority after getting high templar. High templar are necessary from getting absolutely overwhelmed by hydralisks. If you build Dark Archons, that's less high templar you have, as well as less DT to harass. The only use it has whatsoever is maelstorm. It's nearly completely useless midgame except to stop mutalisks - and if you can't effectively stop them after that single maelstorm you're kinda fucked. DA aren't exactly too hard to snipe either, they have only 200/25 (shields/hp) as opposed to archons. And anyways, you've already given up the cost of two high templar anyways, reducing the effective storms you could do vs hydralisks anyways. Dark Archons also will just run up to the enemy when selected with other units, which is the issue with excess APM. You have to worry about it because of it's speed, and hydralisks will pick it off in a second (high templar, in contrast, lag behind because of a slower speed). Maelstorms vs hydralisks just don't cut it in terms of effectiveness. I'm not sure how you aren't impressed or whatever, what do you think they could do better. They obviously spend 10+ hours daily practicing to improve their gameplay, and if they say they can't find ways to do it, what makes you think you could make up for the cost of teching it..? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying DA couldn't be implemented, but timings are the most key factor when debating on whether or not it's feasible. | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8551 Posts
It's honestly not as big of a cost as it seems. | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On October 12 2009 15:25 Avidkeystamper wrote: Like in Calm vs Movie yesterday, by the time Calm made mutas, Movie had a huge army on the ground. Getting DAs instead of 3? zealots and 2? dragoons but having 3 more templar is worth it. It's honestly not as big of a cost as it seems. Wouldn't you want to tech both storm and templar energy before maelstorm though? EVERY game I've ever seen a progamer use a DA he lets the DA run ahead with the zealots and it gets sniped =/. Maybe better control is necessary but if you have to go through all those techs... I dunno. It also doesn't ENSURE that you won't lose any high templar... | ||
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iamho
United States3345 Posts
On October 12 2009 15:07 Ian Ian Ian wrote: I'm an awful player and I could stll bet that I could eliminate enough units from an enemy zerg to balance the cost of teching to it. I don't even really understand why everyone complains so much about microing it :s I recently started meleeing after playing alot of UMS and I am astounded by the APM of some players, but when watching fpvods of progamers I am not impressed by their battle micro at all, it's really not that great and imo, could use improvement. <grabs flame shield> trying to macro and control units all over the map is alot harder to microing a few units in a UMS | ||
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JMave
Singapore1802 Posts
What most people don't really notice is the amount of attention you need to spend to protect your HTs right when he does a muta switch to snipe off templars. Since mutas are clumped when they attack, a maelstrom will totally catch all the mutas and it can leave for a few decent storms to wipe out the muta clump. You are not likely to make archons to counter the muta threat at the stage where you push out because you will need the storms to counter the hydras. Even then, you'd be getting more goons to fend off the mutalisks and not many people have the Bisu skill of controlling their HTs. So I think the little investment in DAs can really work out with the muta threat and significantly change the game play. DAs are not useless right when they take out the mutas.. a nice spread out maelstrom of 2 can kill an entire group of hydras with storms or even stall his army right when lurkers are formed. I think we should just look into this idea more and expand instead of shutting it down. | ||
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jbk613
United States65 Posts
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Soulforged
Latvia904 Posts
Basically, I totally agree with the op. Current mid-game PvZ problem is that with a lot of hydra, even if Z suicides a stack of mutas to kill templars, hydra just absolutely rolls the protoss army. "a good number of sairs" doesn't work too good since all mutas need to do is kill high templars. Once this is done, zerg has army dominance up to next wave of HTs - which usually translates into safe zerg 4th and, depending on the map, dead protoss 3rd. Sairs don't stop mutas immediately, unlike DA. Having a single DA is well worth it with current 5hatch hydra trends. Basically, there are 2 switches that protosses hates these days: 1)Muta HT snipe. 2)Hydra drop in main on gateways. DA helps with both. And the most improtant point, imo, is that if zerg "sees the DA" and decides not to do any of those 2 switches, he's pretty fucked. Mass hydra/lurk head on just melts against storm anyway. And having 1 to 2(if you usually skip DTs) less templar for 2 maelstroms in that situation wouldn't matter much because Z was unable to force you back home/reduce templar count. I myself'd add maelstrom into army in a situation where i have obs and cannoned main/nat, though. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66071 Posts
I guess it's viable in going DA + Maelstrom + 1 or 2 archons if you're SURE that he's going mutas (at least one group). After that, you can immediately push out with zealots and archons (which killed the mutas) and deal damage to the Zerg's 2nd expansion, which should have very little (if any) defense at that point of time. | ||
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fAnTaCy
United States893 Posts
On October 12 2009 19:23 konadora wrote: I think this happened in one of the Proleague games or something few months ago on HBR. Went pretty well in fending off mutas (as long as you don't get your DA seen until it's too late). I guess it's viable in going DA + Maelstrom + 1 or 2 archons if you're SURE that he's going mutas (at least one group). After that, you can immediately push out with zealots and archons (which killed the mutas) and deal damage to the Zerg's 2nd expansion, which should have very little (if any) defense at that point of time. PL spoiler for Wemade vs Khan below...click at your own risk + Show Spoiler + this also just happened with jangbi's game and he failled horrible with DA's and roro lolstomped him afterwards so =/...yeah | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
The situations: Anything without mutas: Usually storm takes priority, unless you spot a big clump of units that will likely move out of your storms or will deal heavy damage even while stormed. For example a group of hydras or scourge aiming for your observers should be maelstromed instead of stormed, That will leave you plenty of time to cast your storms better. Only mutas: If you have maelstrom, use it. Storm is useless against mutas compared to maelstrom. Not only will the mutas fly out of it before they take serious damage, you also will hit your own units more than 50% of the time. Often you will even kill the HT that the zerg wanted to snipe. Maelstrom saves all your HTs and indirectly kills all mutas. Mutas + other units: Here the mutas will try to snipe your HTs, while the rest of the zergs army engages your army. You will have to cast all storms in a very short time because otherwise all your HTs will be sniped. Because of that, your storms won't hit as many units as they could. If you cast one maelstrom at first, you can focus on getting good storms out. So if you know if there are mutas, always select your DA at first and check for targets. If you know there are no mutas, select an HT first. If you don't know, I'd start with the DA because it immediately nullifies a threat, as opposed to stroms which take a while to kill a unit. The key to using DAs is to find a proper attack timing where it is save to get a DA without allowing the zerg to macro up too much. That DA supported attack should be strong enough to cancel all economical advantages the zerg might have gained. | ||
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Count9
China10928 Posts
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
i think use of dark archon could create some great timing attacks or even just use it in bigger battles later game vs ultralisks (altho thats nothing new as OP mentioned :p) also the thing about micro maps is that your only goal is to destroy your opponents army. in a real game there are tons of factors so the actual "micro" is just a small part of the actual micro, i hope u understand this xd, | ||
Aesop
Hungary11240 Posts
Stargate / Zealspeed opening, for example the Violet Build (explained somewhere here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Protoss_Early_Timing_Windows_(vs._Zerg) ). Once your Archives finish, you build 2 DT anyway with that BO. Your Zealot attack shows you, if there are weak points for DT to sneak into. If there aren't any, your harassment would be ineffective anyway, so you invest into the later game by getting a DA. With that timing, he might have 200/200 Energy once the Mutas arrive. As I said, when playing a competent player, the chance your DT do nothing might be greater than to be successful with them. | ||
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
On October 12 2009 15:07 Ian Ian Ian wrote: I'm an awful player and I could stll bet that I could eliminate enough units from an enemy zerg to balance the cost of teching to it. I don't even really understand why everyone complains so much about microing it :s I recently started meleeing after playing alot of UMS and I am astounded by the APM of some players, but when watching fpvods of progamers I am not impressed by their battle micro at all, it's really not that great and imo, could use improvement. <grabs flame shield> because the new style of gameplay requires more macro than micro. It doesn't matter if u lose 1 more unit if u have 5 more because of that coming up. | ||
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RaptorX
Germany646 Posts
Those complaining about "apm intensive" should realize that terrans and zergs require a lot of amp... then why in hell protoss should be the only "less apm intensive"... I guess this would help getting rid of the "1a2a3a toss player" joke. Storming requires good apm and maelstorm is the same thing... I dont see where the problem is. Also those saying that is "resource intensive" should read carefully. In normal bisu builds you make 2 DTs to harass, so... you check if you can harass and if not then you merge them, by that time your storm is already researched (or finishing) and you have 2-4 hts... you can start researching maelstorm soon so where is the big deal? I would say that the key here is that, your first timing attack should be normal, and you should keep your DA at home waiting for muta harass and gaining energy... after your first attack finishes and you get ready for your second pass (this time with HTs or Archons) then you include your DA in to the mix to punish the hell out of the zerg. Two scenarios here: He has a little clump of mutas to snipe your HTs, bingo you have a main use for your DA. Maelstorm -> Storm them and thats it, you have the upper hand. He went mass hydras or lurkerling, then you will play normally except for the fact that 1) you will try to maelstorm his lurkers *before* burring = instant win/pretty big advantage 2) he burried his lurkers but you maelstorm/storm his hydras allowing you to keep your obs alive a little longer and rape his lurkers... For me it looks like a win/win situation here. And no you dont have to hide your DA... when a zerg sees a DA he should be smart enough to not try muta harass or drop... which gives you little bit of time to macro AND you know that his "only option" is a contain, which you are smart enough to be prepared for it, right? | ||
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KnightOfNi
United States1508 Posts
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Igakusei
United States610 Posts
It can never be a standard opening because if you know it's coming, it's too easy to counter. | ||
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