EPT[I] Dark Archon key to next metagame shift in PvZ? - Page 3
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
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GiftPflanZe
Germany623 Posts
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Traveler
United States451 Posts
On October 12 2009 09:41 BluzMan wrote: So now you try to justify a "metagame shift" with a tactic that requires surprise to be effective? C'mon, good builds are good because they are versatile, either being prepared for a multitude of scenarios or forcing the opponent to do that what you want. A DA with mind control can totally rape a fast drop terran, the problem arises when a terran does not drop. Zerg will scout your force with a suicide ling and will see your DA, surprise failed. This line alone will win the ineptitude contest. If you're not planning to harass, just DON'T build those DT! That easy, get another archon! Producing harassing units to not harass is just stupid, especially in the case when they are invisible because then the zerg will not even assume anything. Likewise, zerg doesn't exclusively produce mutas to snipe your templar. I'm not saying this won't work at all. In a perfect world with pink butterflies, maybe it will. I'm saying this lacks versatility. Totally, it will fail in 10x more situations than it will win and you always have to assume everything will go your way beforehand to conserve energy. And it's much easier to scout than you apparently think, zergs suicide lings into your army for a reason. No where does this need to be a suprise. The TS doesn't even mention that. DA's use would be evident after that first Maelstrom, simply the threat of taking away a zergs mobility is a nightmare for a zerg, who relies on his large fast armies. I mean almost every single commonly uses zerg unit has a speed upgrade except for lurkers and defilers and they are already pretty fast. SO now imagine you are a zerg player who has mutas and knows that your opponent has DA's, are you going to run in and try to harass when you know there is a possibility of losing all your mutas in one go? NO. And the DA's are not limited in usage to stopping muta harass, something some people forget. That applications of Maelstrom are incredibly versatile, from getting lurkers before they burrow to killing lings and hydras who are trying to dodge storms, to stopping drops simply by maelstroming them as they come in... As for the not using the dt's to harass, alot of time the point of harassment is not to do damage, rather the threat that you can do damage, dt's in PvZ are not intended to kill the zerg (duh because the have overlords everywhere) even in the Bisu build, rather they are to gain map control and prevent the zerg from taking expos, thus if you let the zerg know you have Dt's and then morph them into a DA, you have accomplished your goal. | ||
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AcrossFiveJulys
United States3612 Posts
On October 12 2009 09:41 BluzMan wrote: So now you try to justify a "metagame shift" with a tactic that requires surprise to be effective? C'mon, good builds are good because they are versatile, either being prepared for a multitude of scenarios or forcing the opponent to do that what you want. A DA with mind control can totally rape a fast drop terran, the problem arises when a terran does not drop. Zerg will scout your force with a suicide ling and will see your DA, surprise failed. If zerg sees you make a DA and realize that mutas are futile, then you have one less thing to worry about. I think it's possible that getting a DA, which is helpful against other zerg strats as well as muta, might be worth eliminating the muta threat. If you're not planning to harass, just DON'T build those DT! That easy, get another archon! Producing harassing units to not harass is just stupid, especially in the case when they are invisible because then the zerg will not even assume anything. Likewise, zerg doesn't exclusively produce mutas to snipe your templar. You still aren't getting it. Let me spell it out for you. We are saying that getting the DA fits in well with current standard toss builds, as in if you skip the DTs and get a DA instead, you'll have the same army as normal but without the harass units. With the DA with maelstrom, you have a hard counter to a zerg that makes muta to snipe hts. Yes, you can make an archon instead of the DA, but that isn't stopping the muta sniping problem. So in essence, getting the DA is a hard counter to one zerg option (ht sniping mutas), and is helpful against other zerg options as well. | ||
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cosiant
Canada616 Posts
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Another_Pro
United States66 Posts
On October 12 2009 10:10 cosiant wrote: Looks like some people need to see that epic game where Reach and Grrr... used DAs. Shows their real worth. Yes but in both cases the DA's were used in lategame. reach vs chojja (Might have spelled that wrong) reach uses the da's to counter the 2-3 control groups of devours. grr vs zerglee, grr uses da combined with archon and storm to whittle away ultraling armies. | ||
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
Most modern PvZ's are lost because of inept corsair usage. Most zergs open with spire and see what happens - if you lose your first corsair to scourge, all other sairs you build are useless. If you lose the first one, a good zerg will never allow you to make a critical mass of them, therefore even more of your resources you spent on sairs 2 and 3 have gone to waste. That's what happens to worse tosses, even then they sometimes keep building corsairs dumping even more money only to lose them eventually. Sairs cost a lot of gas (with 40 buildtime they eat up slightly less gas than a gate producing non-stop HT), yes, and that is why toss doesn't have other forms of antiair ready when mutas come. But don't mistake those late reactionary mutas for a staple zerg strat. Once again - lose first sair, continue sair production and muta/scourge will eat you alive. Massing mutas when toss has archons, corsairs, HT, observers and DA is like 5 minutes late. If anything, I've only seen successful late mutalisks when toss dumped his first corsairs and slowed down his ground tech. People here seem to ignore the simple fact that there is no magic that forces zerg to stack mutas. If you only have DA/HT to defend your base, he will just fly unstacked over your minerals and watch in awe how you storm your own probes. If you have DA/HT/Archon/Sair and mutas still didn't come, they won't unless you fuck up. Late game DA rock vs Ultraling on maps like Tau Cross or Luna. But that's a different story, I can only imagine a midgame DA morph as a desperation effort when you already have DT and your harass is somehow falling apart before it started (being lurker contained on 2 bases with no corsair to escort a shuttle in a scourge-filled sky looks like a good scenario) but if you're not going to do damage with DT, just don't build them. It's easier and cheaper, DA don't provide anything other than unstable ability to freeze a bunch of units for 4 seconds and much unlike War3, gameplay in SC doesn't revolve around one crucial cast of one ability, you've gotta stay consistent. On the other hand, people losing their harassing DT for nothing are not executing a strategy, they are failing it. That's no metagame shift, just their nerves/ineptitude. Anyway, there's so much wrong with the above justification that I'm tired. The most obvious and completely unbeatable argumentation is the fact that nobody is doing it. Explaining why they don't might make someone understand the MU better. Explaining why they should helps noone. | ||
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madnessman
United States1581 Posts
I can't remember who it was but there is a FPVOD somewhere on TL (and YT) where a foreigner does it. I think it was white-ra or something. | ||
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Mobius
Canada1268 Posts
On October 12 2009 05:13 slOosh wrote: It seems a bit costly though. You have two dts + the research cost. It would have to come after storm research though, or otherwise muta harass would be too dangerous. I mean, sair/dt defends well against mutas, but aren't there usually ht to help block? And with a sair/dt build, P would be focused on limiting the Z to maybe 3 bases max since the dts would prevent expos. Yet the investment into DA would allow zerg to macro up and could afford the loss in mutas thanks to the increase in economy. I would think this would only be viable on certain maps, ones where muta harass would be weak or the 3rd/ 4th base extremely hard to take (perhaps HBR??) sure.. but if u kill 9 mutas its well worth it | ||
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Gnarly
United States151 Posts
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On October 12 2009 11:41 Gnarly wrote: Aside from DA play in PvZ, what about PvP? You see people tech to reavers or storm often, and DAs can feedback HT's and MC shuttles with reavers in them, or out... It would require a bit more precise clicking but if you're good then so what? Feedback is 50, and DAs can have 250 energy = 5 HT for one DA. 250/750 for what 250/200? Or a possible 900/400 for getting 2 reavers in a shuttle, with scarabs built, from one MC. I believe any possible economic setback by going DA is already negated at this point. Just keep them alive as long as possible. there was a multitude of reasons why DA werent viable at all in PvP. i dont tihnk you can survive the first reaver attack when youre investing all your tech into dark archons and mind control. | ||
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Gnarly
United States151 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
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29 fps
United States5725 Posts
just the presence of a DA can make a zerg user be a little more careful with his mutas or else they'll be maelstromed and sniped. also, the presence of a DA might make the zerg user think "uh oh, he has a plan up his sleeve" the problem with the DA is that it takes up too many resources and that it can die just about as easily as a templar can to muta snipe. plus, it's a big red ball that sticks out like a sore thumb, so it's easily spotted. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On October 12 2009 11:53 FabledIntegral wrote: I've seen much attempt to do this... and fail... he successfully maelstormed the mutas but still lost hte game... too expensive of a unit. On October 12 2009 11:50 Gnarly wrote: Why not find ways to be able to survive attacks? If you use good tactics, you can buy time to be able to defend a possible attack that could be coming if your opponents knows exactly what to do in the situation that he knew you were investing all of your tech into DA. Just think a few steps ahead of his game. Find a way to survive? Wtf... that isn't advice at all, that's "i'm not going to address the point whatsoever and just say 'play better'." On October 12 2009 11:01 BluzMan wrote: Reach and Grrr would lose to a modern B-team zerg in a humiliating way. Lots of stupidity in that statement... Reach can still beat A team Zergs... and by "can" I mean "still does." | ||
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Gnarly
United States151 Posts
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On October 12 2009 11:45 arb wrote: there was a multitude of reasons why DA werent viable at all in PvP. i dont tihnk you can survive the first reaver attack when youre investing all your tech into dark archons and mind control. Er? Violet used them very effectively mid game vs Guemchi. The only viable purpose of them is feedbacking HTs, and that might be a bit too much of an apm sink. They get seen pretty frequently to counter super fast carriers as well, but that's gone out of style pvp. They also can work well at preventing recalls, much more effective than science vessels actually, and it does a ton of damage to the arbiter as well. | ||
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Another_Pro
United States66 Posts
 ) to figure out when/why to build DA's and make it a common thing to do.At one time or another Fast Expanding with protoss was considered cheese or an act of desperation. Now 2 gate and 1 gate tech are considered the obsolete builds and FE is mainstream.... funny how things work isn't it. Edit: If queens and DA's become mainstream I'll have a lot of fun watching ZvP's. (I mean mainstream as in built in at least a 1/3 of the games, like valks have currently gained popularity.) | ||
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Ian Ian Ian
915 Posts
Of course, I guess I just don't understand the game like some of you guys. Melee is not UMS obviously. But I still think it's underused. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On October 12 2009 14:56 Ian Ian Ian wrote: I'm a really low level p player but I think Mael is horribly underused. It's basically free kills. I used to play this one UMS map that was sort of lotrish and one race had a DA hero and he could turn the tide of every battle with a well placed mael. Of course, I guess I just don't understand the game like some of you guys. Melee is not UMS obviously. But I still think it's underused. Eh... not really any relevance... it's not basically free kills, and money spent on that DA for maelstorm is money you aren't spending elsewhere realize. | ||
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