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Guys, it's two dark templar that are already used in virtually many Protoss builds, there is no massive resource drain like everyone is making out, and there is no hit to your army size, except those two dark templar which are never part of the main army in the first place.
There also is no delay in storm research or normal templar production, the entire point of the initial two DT merging is to accumulate energy. You research maelstrom much later after that. Everything else with normal ratios or production of zealots/templar/goon etc. remain the same, except now you have 1 DA mid-game.
No one puts much effort to attempt these things until one player finally finds a way to make it work THEN everyone is like, "OHHHHHHHHH"
Happened with corsairs, happened with reavers, happened with arbiters, happened with vessels, happened with vultures in modern times.
DA is continuously overlooked =/
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I've used DA's against Terran to nice effect too, you'd be surprised how much damage a cloaked DA who mind controls a tank in the middle of a tank cluster can do.
I played against a friend and felt like trying it out, so I grabbed about 3 DA's and got MC ready, then put them in with my arby/goon/zeal group, and during the battle if you MC some key tanks(or any key unit I suppose but clustered tanks are great) you can do nicely.
Obviously the only issue here is EMP, so it does come back to the whole problem of 'too much micro' which I agree with, the APM is a limiting factor which puts DA use into question. OP's idea however has merit if it's only 1 DA to control mutas. I'd like to see what some of the higher-level iccup'ers have to say.
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How about playing with some reaver & dt action to harras the zerg and then later push out with a dark archon and ht ? in the fight you can protect youre HTs due the maelstorm and the Hts will storm everything.The reaver and dt harras allows you to get more time to get ht and dark archon.
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Pulling a build involving a DA is possible, but it will depend a lot on micro since you will have fewer units.
Now if the zerg were to instead go lurkers, you would likely die. A bit risky I think.
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I think this could really work in the context of the current pvz metagame. There's no concern of missing the maelstrom against the mutas since it has instant effect, and you are going to get 90%+ of the mutas in that maelstrom... then of course the mutas will eat 2 storms and die. Also, since DAs have so many hit points there is no concern of the mutas sniping it first.
Note that if in the worst case scenario the zerg doesn't build any mutas at all, maelstorm is still helpful against hydras anyway, or even against lurkers when you don't have any obs -- maelstrom a few of those bastards before they burrow. And, like people have mentioned, it's no big deal to make the DA... just sack the initial DT harass/map control attempt which doesn't work very well nowadays anyway.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On October 12 2009 05:10 valaki wrote:
If the zerg ever gets to ultras it would be awesome to just mind control 6-7 of them. Vs lurk/hyra it's simply not worth it/you can use your apm for storms or reaver micro instead.
Ultras are worthless without their upgrades and unless you mind control a drone, you ain't getting them. MC'ing an ultra is close to just killing it, all the while putting the DA himself on the verge of death. Funnily enough, DA is a more expensive unit than ultra.
I don't see a metagame shift coming from DA, honestly. This unit is almost useless in midgame as it deals no damage and may misfire vs a muta clump to a micro error, wasting it's power completely.
Furthermore, a metagame shift simply cannot happen at late game. Late game is the time when both players' plans to win the game somewhat failed and they're playing by instinct and knowledge instead of thorough preparation for a specific set of scenarios. Through more than 10 years of StarCraft's existence that has been extremely well-studied, what works and what doesn't. Metagame shifts revolve around specific builds and playstyles - early and midgame. And there's no fucking way a DA will be a better midgame investment than 2 DT because it's applicability area is one situation (maelstorm a muta clump when there's an Archon nearby) whereas DT can hurt the zerg in many different game situations. DA gets somewhat useful in late game when protoss needs to stop large attacking zerg armies with tons of AoE, but that simply doesn't happen in midgame.
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Number of times "Metagame" used: 9
Killing a stack of mutalisks: Priceless
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On October 12 2009 07:44 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
I think this could really work in the context of the current pvz metagame. There's no concern of missing the maelstrom against the mutas since it has instant effect, and you are going to get 90%+ of the mutas in that maelstrom... then of course the mutas will eat 2 storms and die. Also, since DAs have so many hit points there is no concern of the mutas sniping it first.
Note that if in the worst case scenario the zerg doesn't build any mutas at all, maelstorm is still helpful against hydras anyway, or even against lurkers when you don't have any obs -- maelstrom a few of those bastards before they burrow. And, like people have mentioned, it's no big deal to make the DA... just sack the initial DT harass/map control attempt which doesn't work very well nowadays anyway.
So you ought to have: maelstorm and psi storm researched (which are at the same building so can't be done at the same time), an HT with 150 energy (that's a lot) and a DA with 100? And a sizeable amount of cannons because otherwise he will just split the mutas and laugh at you since none of your units directly attack air. You'll be dead by then. I can imagine DA being done on time with a regular Archon, but with storm you'll be late. This won't work. Instant effect on maelstorm is cool, but what if you misclick? A strategy that totally crumbles because of one bad click is not really reliable.
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On October 12 2009 05:10 valaki wrote:
Ultras are worthless without their upgrades and unless you mind control a drone, you ain't getting them.
when you MC you get there upgrades
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I think people are missing the point of the dark archons, they can be used to get rid of the mutas as well as to maelstrom other things, it's not like the DA's become useless after the mutas leave the field, like sairs do. Rather you can use them to maelstrom hydras and lings and lurkers (before they burrow) and then couple that with storm.
Late game used to be so zerg biased because of doom drops filled with cracklings and ultra's which just seemed invicible against anything the toss could throw at it. Now there have been recent games where players will have a DA around the dropable bases and just maelstrom the overlords as they are dropping and then storm everything.
All in all the spell maelstrom has been hugely overlooked, and its not like DA's cost much more than a regular archon, just a few more minerals. The Maelstrom/Storm combo in my opinion is extremely deadly.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On October 12 2009 08:07 StalinRusH wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2009 05:10 valaki wrote:
Ultras are worthless without their upgrades and unless you mind control a drone, you ain't getting them. when you MC you get there upgrades
No they don't get upgrades other than speed and their +2 armor but by the time you MC them zerg will have +3 attack anyway. 6 armor ultra = 2 ling damage, worthwhile, 3 armor ultra = 5 ling damage, worthless. Unless you're both mining out and you've got spare DA with spare energy, maelstorming a bunch of ultraling is way better.
Goddamit, sairs are WAY more useful after mutas leave the field than DA's will ever be.
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On October 12 2009 08:05 BluzMan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2009 07:44 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
I think this could really work in the context of the current pvz metagame. There's no concern of missing the maelstrom against the mutas since it has instant effect, and you are going to get 90%+ of the mutas in that maelstrom... then of course the mutas will eat 2 storms and die. Also, since DAs have so many hit points there is no concern of the mutas sniping it first.
Note that if in the worst case scenario the zerg doesn't build any mutas at all, maelstorm is still helpful against hydras anyway, or even against lurkers when you don't have any obs -- maelstrom a few of those bastards before they burrow. And, like people have mentioned, it's no big deal to make the DA... just sack the initial DT harass/map control attempt which doesn't work very well nowadays anyway. So you ought to have: maelstorm and psi storm researched (which are at the same building so can't be done at the same time), an HT with 150 energy (that's a lot) and a DA with 100? And a sizeable amount of cannons because otherwise he will just split the mutas and laugh at you since none of your units directly attack air. You'll be dead by then. I can imagine DA being done on time with a regular Archon, but with storm you'll be late. This won't work..
Are you not familiar with the standard situation where the toss moves out with 2 or 3 hts (each with enough charge for at least one storm), an archon, a few goons, and a bunch of zealots? A common zerg strategy against this push is to have about 2 groups of hydra and a handful of muta, where the mutas will snipe all the hts and then the hydras are able to take down the rest of the toss army. If you just maelstrom those mutas before they can snipe hts, you can kill them all with 1 storm and the archon/goons or just 2 storms. Of course you still need to take standard precautions against potential muta harass in your main/natural, i.e. if your first sair sees mutas react with another cannon or two and an appropriate number of sairs, but that's no different than normal.
If you read the rest of the thread you'll find people showing why getting the DA + maelstrom makes very little effect on your army size, and just involves getting the DA instead of the initial 2 dts meant for harass and map control.
Instant effect on maelstorm is cool, but what if you misclick? A strategy that totally crumbles because of one bad click is not really reliable
I agree that it does hinge on being able to click on the mutas, but I don't think it's terribly difficult, and even if you misclick, the AOE of maelstrom and quick cast effect means you'll probably catch most of the mutas anyway. I think you would catch most of the mutas 90% of the time if you are moderately accurate with your clicking.
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Or... We could drop this maelstroming mutas stuff and make a decent amount of corsairs. With the said Corsairs you can harrass overlords and own mutas. Problem solved. There is a reason Dark Archons are reserved for late game play.
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On October 12 2009 08:21 selboN wrote:
Or... We could drop this maelstroming mutas stuff and make a decent amount of corsairs. With the said Corsairs you can harrass overlords and own mutas. Problem solved. There is a reason Dark Archons are reserved for late game play.
Exactly, I think people are missing the point that the mutas are usually out to snipe hts at A SPECIFIC TIMING. If you've gone for DA and Maelstrom instead of hts and storm, you've missed the timing anyway and have just done the job of the mutas for them.
By lategame where the DA's don't cost your timing anymore, P's don't even have that much trouble keeping hts alive.
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On October 12 2009 08:27 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2009 08:21 selboN wrote:
Or... We could drop this maelstroming mutas stuff and make a decent amount of corsairs. With the said Corsairs you can harrass overlords and own mutas. Problem solved. There is a reason Dark Archons are reserved for late game play. Exactly, I think people are missing the point that the mutas are usually out to snipe hts at A SPECIFIC TIMING. If you've gone for DA and Maelstrom instead of hts and storm, you've missed the timing anyway and have just done the job of the mutas for them. By lategame where the DA's don't cost your timing anymore, P's don't even have that much trouble keeping hts alive.
You are not "going" for anything. You are building 1 Dark Archon. You are NOT researching maelstrom b4 storm, you are NOT building massive amounts of dark templar, if any, after those initial two.
Storm is not going to be delayed at all. You will have the same exact amount of units, energy, and economy just as you would have with the standard "bisu style," the only difference is you are undermining the Zerg by not doing a typical dark templar harrass thatis expected, and instead merging your first two DT to accumulate energy.
In the current "metagame" climate (yeh i said it again) most Zergs are prepared for the typical dark templars that attempt harrass. So the theory on this is, rather than grabbing a couple drone kills or having an unsuccessful harrass you ideally will instead have a situation where the Zerg put the "standard" defense in place at the typical DT harrass locations, and then you are NOT harrassing, but prepping for the mid-game move out by having that one DA.
Everything after that is exactly the same as it is during a "standard game/style" except you have 1 dark archon in play, and you research maelstrom slightly before you plan to move out, either to secure a third or attack the Zerg, which is where the maelstrom comes in vs the muta snipe group.
Corsair are of course effective vs Mutalisk, but the key difference here is that rather than accumulating corsairs you are pouring all of that potential Sair money into gateway based units and you will be able to stop the Mutas.
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DA has some potentials. DA got higher hitpoints, move faster, and is more effective against mutalisks.
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I think it is important that the Zerg does not see your dark archon or they could just react by making an extra control group of lurkers instead of mutalisks which effectively made you waste 350 minerals and 300 gas (money and gas that could be spent for 1 gateway, 1 pylon and 2 high templars, and not to mention the time spent for adding energy). Maelstorm is not very effective against lurker contains.
Getting a dark archon with maelstorm at a specific timing could be a game-changing counter, but I think it depends too much on whether the Zerg sees your dark archon and builds mutalisks or not. Most players prefer to take control of the game into their own hands and for me, building a dark archon is kinda like getting an early wraith in tvp because you expected reaver harass (and if it doesn't come, you would have wasted resources).
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On October 12 2009 09:00 meegrean wrote:
I think it is important that the Zerg does not see your dark archon or they could just react by making an extra control group of lurkers instead of mutalisks which effectively made you waste 350 minerals and 300 gas (money and gas that could be spent for 1 gateway, 1 pylon and 2 high templars, and not to mention the time spent for adding energy). Maelstorm is not very effective against lurker contains.
Getting a dark archon with maelstorm at a specific timing could be a game-changing counter, but I think it depends too much on whether the Zerg sees your dark archon and builds mutalisks or not. Most players prefer to take control of the game into their own hands and for me, building a dark archon is kinda like getting an early wraith in tvp because you expected reaver harass (and if it doesn't come, you would have wasted resources).
I think the key to using the Dark Archon to defend the mutalisks is surprise like you said if they see it they obviously arent gonna make mutas and your gonna end up with a dark archon that can still disable part of the zergs army for a bit so i dont see it being totally useless. But as we both said surprise is what you need here to make this effective.
I think if you can ge the timing correct to catch the mutas and end up winning th game still then this could very much cause a metagame shift in favor of protoss, thus ending the Z>>>>P debate alot of people are having recently with the 3hatch->5hatch build.
EDIT : though i disagree with the wasted resources part, as someone said above youre gonna end up making DT to harass anyway so its not like youre wasting money on anything except maelstrom. so in reality even if they dont make mutas you lose (100/100?) or something like that, which isnt all that much anyways.
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On October 12 2009 09:16 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2009 09:00 meegrean wrote:
I think it is important that the Zerg does not see your dark archon or they could just react by making an extra control group of lurkers instead of mutalisks which effectively made you waste 350 minerals and 300 gas (money and gas that could be spent for 1 gateway, 1 pylon and 2 high templars, and not to mention the time spent for adding energy). Maelstorm is not very effective against lurker contains.
Getting a dark archon with maelstorm at a specific timing could be a game-changing counter, but I think it depends too much on whether the Zerg sees your dark archon and builds mutalisks or not. Most players prefer to take control of the game into their own hands and for me, building a dark archon is kinda like getting an early wraith in tvp because you expected reaver harass (and if it doesn't come, you would have wasted resources). I think the key to using the Dark Archon to defend the mutalisks is surprise like you said if they see it they obviously arent gonna make mutas and your gonna end up with a dark archon that can still disable part of the zergs army for a bit so i dont see it being totally useless. But as we both said surprise is what you need here to make this effective. I think if you can ge the timing correct to catch the mutas and end up winning th game still then this could very much cause a metagame shift in favor of protoss, thus ending the Z>>>>P debate alot of people are having recently with the 3hatch->5hatch build. EDIT : though i disagree with the wasted resources part, as someone said above youre gonna end up making DT to harass anyway so its not like youre wasting money on anything except maelstrom. so in reality even if they dont make mutas you lose (100/100?) or something like that, which isnt all that much anyways.
but if they don't make mutas then you don't resource maelstorm right? (maelstorm researches fast) I don't think any resources are wasted. I would personally just make the 2 dt and use them to harass anyways and just force them to play cautious and make a little more defense. Try hard not to lose the dt and just bring them back home for DA when they do their job. Make sense?
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
So now you try to justify a "metagame shift" with a tactic that requires surprise to be effective?
C'mon, good builds are good because they are versatile, either being prepared for a multitude of scenarios or forcing the opponent to do that what you want. A DA with mind control can totally rape a fast drop terran, the problem arises when a terran does not drop.
Zerg will scout your force with a suicide ling and will see your DA, surprise failed.
the only difference is you are undermining the Zerg by not doing a typical dark templar harrass thatis expected, and instead merging your first two DT to accumulate energy.
This line alone will win the ineptitude contest. If you're not planning to harass, just DON'T build those DT! That easy, get another archon! Producing harassing units to not harass is just stupid, especially in the case when they are invisible because then the zerg will not even assume anything. Likewise, zerg doesn't exclusively produce mutas to snipe your templar.
I'm not saying this won't work at all. In a perfect world with pink butterflies, maybe it will. I'm saying this lacks versatility. Totally, it will fail in 10x more situations than it will win and you always have to assume everything will go your way beforehand to conserve energy. And it's much easier to scout than you apparently think, zergs suicide lings into your army for a reason.
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EPT
