EPTprogames included.
yes it could work, but then again it could fuck up terribly.
and no there will not be a shift in metagame because if everyone did it then zergs would stop trying to ht snipe with mutastacks.
[I] Dark Archon key to next metagame shift in PvZ? - Page 6
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pyrogenetix
China5098 Posts
progames included. yes it could work, but then again it could fuck up terribly. and no there will not be a shift in metagame because if everyone did it then zergs would stop trying to ht snipe with mutastacks. | ||
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Ian Ian Ian
915 Posts
On October 13 2009 07:14 Gnarly wrote: The whole APM discussion is touchy. There is a reason why the pros are the pros. They should always be trying to surpass themselves. I think not using DA, or queens, just because of the APM usage is stupid and very unprofessional. Pros should be able to learn to deal with it, right? Maybe they have actually already tried, really, really tried, and this is why they say they can't, or they just simply don't know how to incorporate DA micro into their micro/macro system, and refuse to try, thus saying it's too hard. I can't put any weight on this, just simply because how the hell am I, or even you, supposed to know? Blah. Maybe a case of peole not wanting to adapt? | ||
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JMave
Singapore1806 Posts
Sad to say, its really hard to use a DA considering that the muta snipe force arrives from early-mid game transition stage and at that point, macro, upgrades and microing your army to hydras that attack already takes up so much attention. Sad to say, your DA must be where the mutas are which means that they have to be near the high templars. But since the mutas arrive right when you push out, your army is slightly mispositioned and you may not be able to get a maelstorm off at all. Probably Bisu could pull it off but not me. | ||
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Another_Pro
United States66 Posts
As long as you can find a timing to build the DA nobody, not even noobs, should have a problem actually using the spell. | ||
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JohannesH
Finland1364 Posts
On October 13 2009 07:33 pyrogenetix wrote: and no there will not be a shift in metagame because if everyone did it then zergs would stop trying to ht snipe with mutastacks. 1 less option for zergs then. But if everyone stopped sniping hts with muta then nobody would get DA for that anymore... Then muta ht sniping would be safe again :O So I dont think its that simple. | ||
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flag
United States228 Posts
On October 13 2009 07:33 pyrogenetix wrote: and no there will not be a shift in metagame because if everyone did it then zergs would stop trying to ht snipe with mutastacks. correct me if i am wrong, but isn't not doing something (which is in the current metagame), by its very definition a shift in the metagame? there is alot of debate here, but it is all pointless, yes maelstrom will counter the muta ht snipes, yes it will require some additional resource/micro. no amount criticizing on this thread will decide if it is worth it. just go play and try it if you think it has potential, time will tell. metagame shift doesn't happen by debate, it happens by what people do. then again thanks to the OP for bringing this idea to everyones attention. btw i hate the word metagame over used buzzword just meaning best set of strategies (alright i guess it shortens that a little) | ||
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rredtooth
5461 Posts
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RoieTRS
United States2569 Posts
On October 13 2009 07:56 Ian Ian Ian wrote: Maybe a case of peole not wanting to adapt? A wise man once said "If you think you have infinite focus and play accordingly, you will lose". I'd imagine that the game would be played very much differently if players could see the game frame by frame and make all the decisions he wants to for each frame. That is not the case, however, so we shouldn't play like we can do it all. | ||
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GGYouMake
United States69 Posts
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Mirror0423
United States175 Posts
Admitted, if you know for sure that zerg is going to rely heavily on mutals, then going for DA wouldn't be such a bad idea at all. | ||
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bellweather
United States404 Posts
On October 13 2009 15:44 TossNub wrote: If you were SURE that the zerg was gonna go with mutals, then i feel like getting DA might be worth more than storm. The problem that i can see is, when zerg is getting den/spire, and you aren't sure yet, which units zerg is going to be going for, hydras, or mutals, which upgrade are you going to be getting, and what units. If you start upgrading/making DA after you see mutals, there's no way you'll be able to get them in time. If you assume they're going mutals, and zerg ends up getting hydras, you're pretty much F-ed. I think that's why people choose storm. Storm, though not as useful against mutals, is at least more useful against both of zerg's tech than DA is. Admitted, if you know for sure that zerg is going to rely heavily on mutals, then going for DA wouldn't be such a bad idea at all. You're discounting maelstrom's effectiveness against hydras. Granted it'd be so much better taking out 9 stacked mutas, but it's not impossibly useless. Also if you have a corsair flying around you can count larvae, although I'm not exactly sure how you'd want the DA timing compared to the current storm timing. | ||
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Ota Solgryn
Denmark2011 Posts
On October 13 2009 09:14 JMave wrote: I've tried a build with DAs and I must say that its incredibly hard to adapt with. Sad to say, its really hard to use a DA considering that the muta snipe force arrives from early-mid game transition stage and at that point, macro, upgrades and microing your army to hydras that attack already takes up so much attention. Sad to say, your DA must be where the mutas are which means that they have to be near the high templars. But since the mutas arrive right when you push out, your army is slightly mispositioned and you may not be able to get a maelstorm off at all. Probably Bisu could pull it off but not me. Yeah but the zergs has learned to micro the mutas around, dodge storm with hyds and macro, so why shouldnt protoss be able to. Its all in your head. | ||
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Divinek
Canada4045 Posts
On October 13 2009 12:52 flag wrote: correct me if i am wrong, but isn't not doing something (which is in the current metagame), by its very definition a shift in the metagame? You are indeed correct sir! You catch him on a misunderstanding like I catch him on his extreme lack of art production! Even if they dont go mutas it has some use against mass hydras, so if you can only mael like 5-6 however many a clump would be it's a sure storm hit, which is some compensation. While mael definitely isnt as good as a storm, it's much better being able to deny a muta change>ht pick off switch for the whole game than losing like all your hts at the start, or some point in the game. And DA do actually scale late game with feedback on defilers, and maelings on ultras is extremely useful. If you KNOW he cant go mutas because you're going DA you'd practically never have to make defensive cannons in your min lines early to stop a muta threat, which is very very nice too. Seems totally viable and very interesting at least. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
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SturmAddict
Malaysia176 Posts
And the only reason archons are easy to snipe, is because most players group them with zealots so that they can get to the lings asap when they come. but i dont see any reason for DA' to be grouped with lots and archons in the front line... | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
I don't see how DAs are sniped easier than Archons. DAs have no attack, so they RUN if they are hit. Archons ATTACK the hydras. And if the two units are following the same order (move, attack move, patrol, hold) they are sniped equally well. | ||
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Mirror0423
United States175 Posts
On October 13 2009 16:34 InsideTheBox wrote: You're discounting maelstrom's effectiveness against hydras. Granted it'd be so much better taking out 9 stacked mutas, but it's not impossibly useless. Also if you have a corsair flying around you can count larvae, although I'm not exactly sure how you'd want the DA timing compared to the current storm timing. A single maelstrom V a single storm might be comparable, but with energy costs, and since DA needs 2 DTs, with storms a toss can get 2, if lucky up to 3 storms by the time a hydra army comes in, but with DA i can't really see more than 1 maelstrom being ready in time. | ||
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mOnion
United States5657 Posts
and its amazing how many people think its maelSTORM when its actually maelSTROM gogo gadget spelling! | ||
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Mirror0423
United States175 Posts
As for the APM matter, i've always been confused as to why people joke around like "1a2a3a toss" it's not that toss doesn't need micro, but it takes longer for toss to macro. for example (by the way 1a2a3a is late game, so i'm setting up scenarios in late game) If a zerg players wants to mass up 12 units (with no lings) they require 4 "unit building actions". to match that a toss player is required to do i would say around 6 to 8 "unit building actions" depending on the unit composition and upgrades. in the beginning it doesn't seem like that big of a deal but late game, when zerg is pouring out from 9 to 12 "unit building actions" toss is required to spend a lot more time macroing their units. not to mention the fact that zerg can just save up their larvas and produce, while toss has to keep their gates constantly pumping. Against terran it's a little different, which is why i think toss does have some advantage against terran. If a terran player produces from 8 facts, toss is required to produce from 10 gates or so (due to terran units being more effective... especially late game with upgrades). which only requires very small time spent on "unit producing actions" than the terran player. So a zerg player with 200 apm could spend a considerably longer time microing his units while a toss player with 200 apm is busy keep their unit count up to par. Against terran you do see more micro, such as zelot bombing or running your zelots, making sure your goons aren't hiting the building that's floating around for meat shield. etc etc. So yeah, toss does micro less than zerg/terran players, but it's because we want to keep out with zerg/terran's macro. That's just my 2 cents o_O. Don't bash me too much. | ||
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
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