On April 03 2009 00:21 snapcrackle wrote: I personally don't care about the Kespa hate thing or whether or not it should be hated. But in my opinion what the mods are doing seems like the right choice.
On April 02 2009 19:40 PoP wrote: The reason we care about "Kespa sanctioned" is because the original game list brought into TLPD was only composed of such leagues. If we start counting every single one of them now, the stats would be skewed until we add all the previous ones as well.
So the only other real solution would be to add all the old leagues we're missing (quite a lot imo) and decide (ourselves) which ones should be counted towards ELO and which ones shouldn't. That'd require tons of grunt work tho.
But also because of the following reason: Currently Season 3 contains no SKT players as well as OGN and MBC (correct me if i'm wrong on OGN and MBC please) i believe there are more. Season 1 and 2 also had teams that did not participate. This in effect would also skew the TLPD elo stats. It would create an imbalance where teams aren't playing against all teams fairly (proleagues)/randomly(OSL/MSL). An example so you can get a better view of it. Lets say Person A and Person B are on fire right now. Person A is allowed to play in GOM while Person B is not allowed to play in GOM. Person A gets a high number of games played thereby his ELO rose significantly. Person B however is an ace for his team and ONLY gets to play around 2-3 televised matches a month. Had he been in GOM he might have had a chance to establish a higher peak ELO but sadly he isn't.
To bring another example with said reason above: Imagine a tournament with only 2 or 3 or 4 teams participating in it... would you count that into the ELO?
Don't wanna edit the second reason to make it sound easier/better but i'm sure if you read it enough times you can get what i mean
ur arguments are retarded, the number of games played should have no effect on ELO it's supposed to show raw skill it isnt like a ladder where you get more points for a win and less points taken away when you lose.
jaedong can lose to joeblowkorean no ELO rating in the first round and lose 20 points because of it just as easy as he can earn 1-2 points from beating them
On April 03 2009 00:33 p4NDemik wrote: They had no ACE players in them because ACE coaches opted out of letting the players play in the prelims. The situation was no different than MBC/OGN/SKT/eSTRO deciding not to play in GOM, just the motivations behind it where different (their PL results were so bad that they weren't allowed in individual leagues).
Completely different reasoning. Ace coaches opted out of prelims because their motivation was to make them do better in proleagues. This sacrifice would allow them to have more practice winning proleague matches. Thereby is a more strategic sense of getting wins. Whereas opting out due to competition reasoning (as BS as it is) doesn't give a team an edge. But then again ... as double standard as it does sound... having 1 team out of the OSL/MSL doesn't affect much as having 4 teams out of the GOM Tournament
On April 03 2009 00:21 snapcrackle wrote: I personally don't care about the Kespa hate thing or whether or not it should be hated. But in my opinion what the mods are doing seems like the right choice.
Not only because of this:
On April 02 2009 19:40 PoP wrote: The reason we care about "Kespa sanctioned" is because the original game list brought into TLPD was only composed of such leagues. If we start counting every single one of them now, the stats would be skewed until we add all the previous ones as well.
So the only other real solution would be to add all the old leagues we're missing (quite a lot imo) and decide (ourselves) which ones should be counted towards ELO and which ones shouldn't. That'd require tons of grunt work tho.
But also because of the following reason: Currently Season 3 contains no SKT players as well as OGN and MBC (correct me if i'm wrong on OGN and MBC please) i believe there are more. Season 1 and 2 also had teams that did not participate. This in effect would also skew the TLPD elo stats. It would create an imbalance where teams aren't playing against all teams fairly (proleagues)/randomly(OSL/MSL). An example so you can get a better view of it. Lets say Person A and Person B are on fire right now. Person A is allowed to play in GOM while Person B is not allowed to play in GOM. Person A gets a high number of games played thereby his ELO rose significantly. Person B however is an ace for his team and ONLY gets to play around 2-3 televised matches a month. Had he been in GOM he might have had a chance to establish a higher peak ELO but sadly he isn't.
To bring another example with said reason above: Imagine a tournament with only 2 or 3 or 4 teams participating in it... would you count that into the ELO?
Don't wanna edit the second reason to make it sound easier/better but i'm sure if you read it enough times you can get what i mean
ur arguments are retarded, the number of games played should have no effect on ELO it's supposed to show raw skill it isnt like a ladder where you get more points for a win and less points taken away when you lose.
jaedong can lose to joeblowkorean no ELO rating in the first round and lose 20 points because of it just as easy as he can earn 1-2 points from beating them
no my arguments aren't retarded. sorry but no it isn't. Did you just see what happened to ELO peaks by removing GOM season 2? My arguments aren't retarded. Now learn to be civil rather than ignorantly calling someones point "retarded"
On April 02 2009 19:40 PoP wrote: The reason we care about "Kespa sanctioned" is because the original game list brought into TLPD was only composed of such leagues. If we start counting every single one of them now, the stats would be skewed until we add all the previous ones as well.
So the only other real solution would be to add all the old leagues we're missing (quite a lot imo) and decide (ourselves) which ones should be counted towards ELO and which ones shouldn't. That'd require tons of grunt work tho.
I know there's a lot of people who would be willing to help out including myself on trying to make TLPD a COMPLETE database.
Unfortunately, I haven't been around that long so I don't know all of the touraments or whatnot that went on like '06 or earlier...
But if you need grunt work there's definitely people who are willing to volunteer.
On April 03 2009 00:21 snapcrackle wrote: I personally don't care about the Kespa hate thing or whether or not it should be hated. But in my opinion what the mods are doing seems like the right choice.
Not only because of this:
On April 02 2009 19:40 PoP wrote: The reason we care about "Kespa sanctioned" is because the original game list brought into TLPD was only composed of such leagues. If we start counting every single one of them now, the stats would be skewed until we add all the previous ones as well.
So the only other real solution would be to add all the old leagues we're missing (quite a lot imo) and decide (ourselves) which ones should be counted towards ELO and which ones shouldn't. That'd require tons of grunt work tho.
But also because of the following reason: Currently Season 3 contains no SKT players as well as OGN and MBC (correct me if i'm wrong on OGN and MBC please) i believe there are more. Season 1 and 2 also had teams that did not participate. This in effect would also skew the TLPD elo stats. It would create an imbalance where teams aren't playing against all teams fairly (proleagues)/randomly(OSL/MSL). An example so you can get a better view of it. Lets say Person A and Person B are on fire right now. Person A is allowed to play in GOM while Person B is not allowed to play in GOM. Person A gets a high number of games played thereby his ELO rose significantly. Person B however is an ace for his team and ONLY gets to play around 2-3 televised matches a month. Had he been in GOM he might have had a chance to establish a higher peak ELO but sadly he isn't.
To bring another example with said reason above: Imagine a tournament with only 2 or 3 or 4 teams participating in it... would you count that into the ELO?
Don't wanna edit the second reason to make it sound easier/better but i'm sure if you read it enough times you can get what i mean
ur arguments are retarded, the number of games played should have no effect on ELO it's supposed to show raw skill it isnt like a ladder where you get more points for a win and less points taken away when you lose.
jaedong can lose to joeblowkorean no ELO rating in the first round and lose 20 points because of it just as easy as he can earn 1-2 points from beating them
no my arguments aren't retarded. sorry but no it isn't. Did you just see what happened to ELO peaks by removing GOM season 2? My arguments aren't retarded. Now learn to be civil rather than ignorantly calling someones point "retarded"
The elo's changed because jaedong should have a higher ELO than he does right now, playing more games does not equate into getting a better elo
I'm pretty sure ELO is affected theoretically, but probably not in practice, because of the exclusion of teams, not because of Jaedong playing extra games. (Although a player like Bisu not being able to get enough games in to display his dominance before he loses it is a problem.) If Jaedong is weaker than normal against OGN, MBC, and/or SKT players, (0-2 han comes to mind :O) then it's not fair that Jaedong is allowed to dodge them and have his ELO reflect the results of a partial group of players.
I don't understand why you guys can't dare to be different. Just because Kespa doesn't respect GOM doesn't mean we shouldn't. Hell, those games happened, and since we're never going to have any affect on Korean programing (other than hanging out with Sea[shield] and stuff) I don't see what's wrong with counting them.
I still don't get why KeSPA wouldn't sanction GOM. I mean, to increase the audience and reach out e-Sports to more people, they should do this. I'm guessing that the teams in Proleague or the major sponsors (Shinhan Bank, for example) are somehow pulling the streams to keep the Proleague shining brighter than GOM.
On April 03 2009 08:26 konadora wrote: I still don't get why KeSPA wouldn't sanction GOM. I mean, to increase the audience and reach out e-Sports to more people, they should do this. I'm guessing that the teams in Proleague or the major sponsors (Shinhan Bank, for example) are somehow pulling the streams to keep the Proleague shining brighter than GOM.
it's mostly due to pressure from OGN, MBC, and IEF. they don't want any added competition to their own leagues, and IEF has rights to broadcast games (don't remember if it was msl / osl, or proleague).
On April 03 2009 08:00 Athos wrote: I don't understand why you guys can't dare to be different. Just because Kespa doesn't respect GOM doesn't mean we shouldn't. Hell, those games happened, and since we're never going to have any affect on Korean programing (other than hanging out with Sea[shield] and stuff) I don't see what's wrong with counting them.
i agree!! its silly that the games arent counted just because of little political battles within kespa
On April 03 2009 08:45 Warrior Madness wrote: I'm still waiting for the... "April fools!" ):
Sadly, it's not an April Fools joke. It's true. GOM is recognized as a starcraft tournament but not actually sanctioned, thus doesnt go into the Kespa ratings and whatnot. when I used to give stats on "7 wins, 3 losses in the last 10 games" no GOM match had been included - because Kespa never included them as official games that counted towards the player's stats.
On April 03 2009 08:45 Warrior Madness wrote: I'm still waiting for the... "April fools!" ):
Sadly, it's not an April Fools joke. It's true. GOM is recognized as a starcraft tournament but not actually sanctioned, thus doesnt go into the Kespa ratings and whatnot. when I used to give stats on "7 wins, 3 losses in the last 10 games" no GOM match had been included - because Kespa never included them as official games that counted towards the player's stats.
EPT
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