EPTTLPD / ELO Change - Page 7
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Scaramanga
Australia8091 Posts
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Magic84
Russian Federation1381 Posts
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36383 Posts
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Piste
6180 Posts
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Magic84
Russian Federation1381 Posts
On April 04 2009 21:38 Hot_Bid wrote: Gom1 2 and 3 will all count alright then, why's idra still 0-0 for example, it's coming or the round is too early to include? Flash's tl.net peak was a lie all this time then, he never surpassed oov, heh. | ||
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Bosu
United States3247 Posts
On April 04 2009 21:42 Piste wrote: Kinda not fair to count gom-games to elo, since not all teams play there People don't lose ELO for not playing so it doesn't matter. They only lose and gain points for winning or losing. | ||
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Piste
6180 Posts
On April 04 2009 21:55 Bosu wrote: People don't lose ELO for not playing so it doesn't matter. They only lose and gain points for winning or losing. But it's less games for bisu to gain points from ^^ | ||
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Lachrymose
Australia1928 Posts
seems especially weird after skt participated last season. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On April 04 2009 10:06 Hot_Bid wrote: 1.So should we count Superfights? Shinhan Masters? Since counting GOM really is breaking the letter of our "rules" for TLPD but validating the spirit, maybe its time to reexamine exactly why we exclude invitationals. Here are the reasons why invitationals were historically not counted (despite KTF Premiere League counting) 1. The players did not deserve to be invited to the tournament, i.e. no qualifiers or fair selection system like OSL or MSL - as a result it's not good for rankings or ELO GOM Invitational - pure invite on who GOM thought were the best 16 players GOM S1 - much larger invite, but still invite, and forced race balance (33% each race) GOM S2 - same GOM S3 - same Bisu-Jaedong - I don't think anyone would argue that they didn't qualify legitimately by winning their respective seasons 2. The players will not prepare as hard or play their best, i.e. players throwing games, screwing around, this is not good for ELO or rankings GOM Invitational - nobody was not caring / throwing games GOM S1 - same, though you could argue some top players didn't prioritize it as high GOM S2 - same GOM S3 - same Bisu-Jaedong - They practiced ridiculously hard, even requesting extra week for more preparation. GOM Invite was on who was most popular at the time  Why else would players like boxer be invited? GOMS1 was open afaik, but many teams opted out of it because it was not sanction by KeSPA (teams that didn't play were ace, skt, mbc, estro, ogn) GOMS2 was also open, but when it became "recognized" SKT and Ace decided to participate; MBC, OGN and estro still did not participate because it wasn't sanctioned (presumably). S3 as above Bisu-Jaedong was a match that was going to happen regardless; they announced that S1 winner would vs S2 winner a long time ago, just like what happened with SH Masters. 2. Gom Invite - it could be argued that players did not practice as hard for it as other tournaments (a reason GOM made their map pool off of the KeSPA maps) Gom S2-3 as above Bisu-Jaedong; we have no evidence that they practiced extra hard for the series other than GOM's word (afaik) either way, when theres that much money on the line players will take it seriously. Similarly, anything outside of the top 16 typically gets prioritized lower than OSL/MSL/PL unless the players aren't active in anything else. On April 04 2009 10:14 Hot_Bid wrote: The thing is, SKT didn't boycott that MSL. SKT forced the players to choose between participating either in the OSL or the MSL. All but two of the players chose to participate in the OSL, the other two (kingdom and canata iirc) played in the MSL (and failed in the qualis). Thus, SKT never really boycotted the league.. just forced players to dedicate more time to proleague. MBC/OGN/eStro are flat out boycotting the league and indeed if Bisu hadn't have switched teams he wouldn't have participated in GOMS2 and wouldn't have won it. When you eliminate the competition these teams offer (like sea, light, leta, yarnc, luxury (not anymore), hyvaa, up, really) you get left with weird players making the Ro16 like Ganzi. You can make the same argument about GOM2, or the MSL which SKT boycotted way back when at the guy above me; estro don't play because they are owned by IEG (same people who own scforall) and they don't participate because they paid big moneys for the proleague rights hence they "own" proleauge atm | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On April 04 2009 22:09 Lachrymose wrote: ogn/mbc is pretty obvious, but does anybody have a good guess at why estro/skt aren't playing? obviously they won't come out and say, i just don't really see what kind of interest they have in kespa/ogn/mbc? seems especially weird after skt participated last season. SKT I'm not sure, but eStro's sponsors own the rights to broadcast proleague etc (right?) so they have a stake in this too. | ||
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Lachrymose
Australia1928 Posts
one down, one to go? :D | ||
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
On April 04 2009 10:12 Hot_Bid wrote: SuperFight and Shinhan Masters Analysis SuperFight 1 - Boxer vs Yellow, Boxer vs Savior Obviously these shouldn't count, Boxer and Yellow were far below Savior in skills at the time and it'd be ridiculous to have these as official tournament games. SuperFight 2 - Canata vs Sea, Nada vs Reach Old vs New theme, again purely exhibition and shouldn't count, the "old" players did nothing recently to warrant being invited. SuperFight 3 - Jju vs Tossgirl, Nada vs Savior Girl vs Guy obviously not counted as its a showmatch. The Nada vs Savior was the MSL vs OSL winner, which is essentially the same as GOM Special Match except that it was organized by an outside party. I would feel much better counting this if MSL/OSL approved the showmatch or agreed to it ahead of time. GOM made it seem like this was their plan all along, since they ran GOM1 and GOM2 and intended for the winners to play. That makes it seem a lot less like a showmatch or exhibition. Superfight 4 - Proleague style tourney Not counted for obvious reasons, aside from many teams simply not caring that much about it and CJ sending Savior out every round for the eventual win. Superfight 5 - Tossgirl vs 2 amateurs and Boxer vs Savior Not counted for same reasons as Superfight 1. This all being said, I see no problem with Superfight being included in ELO!  | ||
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stevethemacguy
United States137 Posts
Of course, it's pretty obvious which games are "just for fun" and probably shouldn't be counted (but it's still nice to have them listed). I guess you really just have to draw the line somewhere. Perhaps a definition should be made that is independent of Kespa. For example: if a game is played between pro-gamers (who are members of a recognized team), in a tournament, where there is prize money on the line, than the games should be counted. I don't understand what the big fuss is as long as every game is listed. With or without Kespa's blessing, I think it's pretty obvious what games are serious and which aren't...the Gom Seasons for example, are tournaments that involve over 100 Progamers and have large prizes, so to me it makes sense for them to be included. | ||
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Deleted User 31060
3788 Posts
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GGQ
Canada2653 Posts
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Avidkeystamper
United States8556 Posts
The coach asked GOM to push back the match for one week in order to get sufficient practice time, so this point is invalid. | ||
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36383 Posts
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
but really, it sux that they can't take gom serious. why not make it kespa sanctioned and all teams would join, better tournament, more money hello=!? | ||
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Mooncat
Germany1228 Posts
On April 02 2009 15:04 Carnac wrote: anyone else tired of that elo peak shit anyway? Most definitely. | ||
disciple
9070 Posts
On April 05 2009 03:31 Hot_Bid wrote: Yes, they pushed back the start date to give them more time to practice, but it really should be obvious if you watched the games that it was the most high level PvZ series ever. The original statement in fomos said they are pushing the event back because SKT and OZ had deciding matches for PL, AND because both of them need more time to prepare | ||
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