Update: After much discussion with staff: 1. For now, GOM2 will count as results and for ELO rankings. 2. To be consistent, we have added GOM1 to results and ELO rankings as well. 3. GOM Invitational still won't count, but the Bisu/Jaedong Bo5 does count.
With these both added the top 5 ELO Peaks look like this now: 2352 - Bisu 2343 - Jaedong 2329 - iloveoov 2322 - Flash 2301 - sAviOr
It has been brought to our attention that GOM Classic 2 was not sanctioned by KeSPA, and thus we mistakenly counted GOM2 and the special invite match between Bisu and Jaedong to their records and ELO ratings. Because GOM is not a KeSPA sanctioned event, we will treat it like any other invitational tournament, by storing the match records but not counting them toward player ELO ratings or total match records.
This is important because it greatly changes the ELO peaks of some of the players, notably Bisu and Jaedong. Bisu had an ELO peak of ~2350 and Jaedong ~2340, which were the two highest in history. After this correction, the top five look like this:
Yes, I know this is a sad day for Bisu fans, but it is the correct thing to do. The first GOM invitational tournament was not counted toward ELO and rankings for the same reason (not KeSPA sanctioned), so including the second season simply because it was bigger (despite certain teams not participating) is inconsistent with how we've treated special invitational tournaments in the past in the TLPD.
Also, Jaedong is currently at 2315 and has a chance in the OSL Finals in two days to get within striking distance of Flash's ELO peak record.
something makes me want to say "late april fools." Where does KeSPA say GOM isn't sanctioned? of course, if i'm wrong, then that sucks for bisu/jaedong fans.
Does anyone know why KeSPA wouldn't sanction the GOM tournament? I think "KeSPA sanctioned" is a pretty worthless qualifier, based on what I know about the organization.
On April 02 2009 15:03 JWD wrote: Does anyone know why KeSPA wouldn't sanction the GOM tournament? I think "KeSPA sanctioned" is a pretty worthless qualifier, based on what I know about the organization.
I agree it's not a great distinction as the GOM competition was pretty fierce, but its the only real bright line rule we have to distinguish between invite and special tournaments and official ones that count.
Meh, even though I am a Jaedong fan I consider this good news. With GOM S2 not counting, Jaedong will have the highest ELO after he rapes fantasy and not Bisu.
why do you even care about KESPA's rules ? GOM was a very big event. Even prize says itself. It is completely unreasonable. It should be changed to old system.
Fine with me, for I really don't care so much about ELO and such, however, it bothers me that Kespa isn't sanctioning GOM, and teams aren't participating... Why is this, anyway? I would assume more events and more money is a GOOD THING for Starcraft... Why would Kespa (And some teams) continually facepalm GOM?
can we get Gom S1 put in the database but not counted towards ELO? seems strange to have S2 in but now S1 now. Plus Jaedong's accomplishments would look nicer going into his OSL championship bid.
On April 02 2009 16:09 p4NDemik wrote: can we get Gom S1 put in the database but not counted towards ELO? seems strange to have S2 in but now S1 now. Plus Jaedong's accomplishments would look nicer going into his OSL championship bid.
We asked GOM for full brackets for GOM1 but they haven't gotten back to us despite many attempts to get this information.
Season 2 has incomplete information too, and it was still included. You've got everything for the Ro32 and up, why not at least add just those games, and you can add the earlier rounds whenever all the information comes to light?
Following Kespa is so arbitrary. An all-star game I can understand since it's more of a fun thing and people don't really try like in the race battles. But counting ELO in a whole tournament with big money and top players and great finals like bisu vs jangbi and jaedong vs flash helps show the current state/power of the players.
However, I do agree that it's either count all seasons or count none for consistency.
I have one thing to say.. I'm all against that change but there is something bugging me.. Why did you change the stats also ? Even if you remove gaining ELO points from those games , still the games could be included to stats for general information..
On April 02 2009 15:19 benjammin wrote: eh, why do people care about the kespa sanctioned? a check doesn't need to be kespa sanctioned, and iirc the gom prize was a big fat one
edit: by this i mean why would some teams not participate
i guess ogn and mbc make sense because of competing networks, but why not skt1?
Yeah, I don't get this either. It'd be nice if the only tournament that's cast in English got a bit more legitimacy, not to mention all teams on board.
The reason we care about "Kespa sanctioned" is because the original game list brought into TLPD was only composed of such leagues. If we start counting every single one of them now, the stats would be skewed until we add all the previous ones as well.
So the only other real solution would be to add all the old leagues we're missing (quite a lot imo) and decide (ourselves) which ones should be counted towards ELO and which ones shouldn't. That'd require tons of grunt work tho.
That's a pretty silly argument in my opinion. Just because there was some issue about the past does not mean we should not try to do the right thing for the present (and for the future) where we can (and will be able to) get our hands on the data.
I believe I speak not only for myself when I say we want a database that is complete or able to be complete to as reasonable an extent as possible. If going through the past is unreasonable then so be it. However, ignoring such significant events (for which the data is readily available) based on the whim of a body like Kespa does not do justice to the actual records of the players we want to build a database about.
If you feel that the factor about Kespa sanctioning is so important, at least allow us the data and the analysis that flows from that data that is invalid due to not being Kespa sanctioned to be available through options or some other such means. I, myself, prefer accurate and whole data that reflects the competitive environment of televised starcraft as opposed to data only for those that Kespa sanctions.
I think this is completely wrong, both GOM tournaments should be counted. They are major tournaments with big prizes and many strong players, I don't care if Kespa "sanctions" them (whatever that means) or not.
Jesus Christ all the confusion about this or that being officially sanctioned or not. It's still StarCraft all of it!
On April 02 2009 15:05 Fr33t wrote: Meh, even though I am a Jaedong fan I consider this good news. With GOM S2 not counting, Jaedong will have the highest ELO after he rapes fantasy and not Bisu.
But at least this factual statement makes me happy
On April 02 2009 19:40 PoP wrote: The reason we care about "Kespa sanctioned" is because the original game list brought into TLPD was only composed of such leagues. If we start counting every single one of them now, the stats would be skewed until we add all the previous ones as well.
So the only other real solution would be to add all the old leagues we're missing (quite a lot imo) and decide (ourselves) which ones should be counted towards ELO and which ones shouldn't. That'd require tons of grunt work tho.
I can't think of a single league the size of GOM from the past.. Hell, even ITV and GhemTV are counted, and they are smaller.
WCG isn't counted (the national prelims are tho!).
I don't think we'd be missing almost anything by just saying "starting from Gom S1, we will be tracking their games".
On April 02 2009 19:08 FrozenArbiter wrote: Hrm, how about saying "fuck the KESPA" (corrupt organization that they are), and adding all the Gom leagues?
Honestly, I think that's the most fair choice..
I think FA just proved why he is my most favourite TL moderator.
In any case, I agree with him. KESPA sanctioned or not, the GOM leagues are too big of events to be ignored when it comes to player performance. TeamLiquid is a fansite, not a KESPA outpost outside Korea.
On April 03 2009 00:11 Ideas wrote: man KESPA is so fucking stupid. There's no reason that the GOMs shouldn't be sanctioned.
I guess with enormous proleague and non-stop msl, osl action, schedule is way too tight on players another official league would dilute starcraft or something like that. I can see how it is not accepted yet.
I personally don't care about the Kespa hate thing or whether or not it should be hated. But in my opinion what the mods are doing seems like the right choice.
Not only because of this:
On April 02 2009 19:40 PoP wrote: The reason we care about "Kespa sanctioned" is because the original game list brought into TLPD was only composed of such leagues. If we start counting every single one of them now, the stats would be skewed until we add all the previous ones as well.
So the only other real solution would be to add all the old leagues we're missing (quite a lot imo) and decide (ourselves) which ones should be counted towards ELO and which ones shouldn't. That'd require tons of grunt work tho.
But also because of the following reason: Currently Season 3 contains no SKT players as well as OGN and MBC (correct me if i'm wrong on OGN and MBC please) i believe there are more. Season 1 and 2 also had teams that did not participate. This in effect would also skew the TLPD elo stats. It would create an imbalance where teams aren't playing against all teams fairly (proleagues)/randomly(OSL/MSL). An example so you can get a better view of it. Lets say Person A and Person B are on fire right now. Person A is allowed to play in GOM while Person B is not allowed to play in GOM. Person A gets a high number of games played thereby his ELO rose significantly. Person B however is an ace for his team and ONLY gets to play around 2-3 televised matches a month. Had he been in GOM he might have had a chance to establish a higher peak ELO but sadly he isn't.
To bring another example with said reason above: Imagine a tournament with only 2 or 3 or 4 teams participating in it... would you count that into the ELO?
Don't wanna edit the second reason to make it sound easier/better but i'm sure if you read it enough times you can get what i mean
On April 03 2009 00:21 snapcrackle wrote: I personally don't care about the Kespa hate thing or whether or not it should be hated. But in my opinion what the mods are doing seems like the right choice.
On April 02 2009 19:40 PoP wrote: The reason we care about "Kespa sanctioned" is because the original game list brought into TLPD was only composed of such leagues. If we start counting every single one of them now, the stats would be skewed until we add all the previous ones as well.
So the only other real solution would be to add all the old leagues we're missing (quite a lot imo) and decide (ourselves) which ones should be counted towards ELO and which ones shouldn't. That'd require tons of grunt work tho.
But also because of the following reason: Currently Season 3 contains no SKT players as well as OGN and MBC (correct me if i'm wrong on OGN and MBC please) i believe there are more. Season 1 and 2 also had teams that did not participate. This in effect would also skew the TLPD elo stats. It would create an imbalance where teams aren't playing against all teams fairly (proleagues)/randomly(OSL/MSL). An example so you can get a better view of it. Lets say Person A and Person B are on fire right now. Person A is allowed to play in GOM while Person B is not allowed to play in GOM. Person A gets a high number of games played thereby his ELO rose significantly. Person B however is an ace for his team and ONLY gets to play around 2-3 televised matches a month. Had he been in GOM he might have had a chance to establish a higher peak ELO but sadly he isn't.
To bring another example with said reason above: Imagine a tournament with only 2 or 3 or 4 teams participating in it... would you count that into the ELO?
Don't wanna edit the second reason to make it sound easier/better but i'm sure if you read it enough times you can get what i mean
So the last MSL and OSL don't count because they had no ACE players?
I disagree with this decision, couldn't care less about Kespa. Why so serious...
On April 03 2009 00:21 snapcrackle wrote: I personally don't care about the Kespa hate thing or whether or not it should be hated. But in my opinion what the mods are doing seems like the right choice.
Not only because of this:
On April 02 2009 19:40 PoP wrote: The reason we care about "Kespa sanctioned" is because the original game list brought into TLPD was only composed of such leagues. If we start counting every single one of them now, the stats would be skewed until we add all the previous ones as well.
So the only other real solution would be to add all the old leagues we're missing (quite a lot imo) and decide (ourselves) which ones should be counted towards ELO and which ones shouldn't. That'd require tons of grunt work tho.
But also because of the following reason: Currently Season 3 contains no SKT players as well as OGN and MBC (correct me if i'm wrong on OGN and MBC please) i believe there are more. Season 1 and 2 also had teams that did not participate. This in effect would also skew the TLPD elo stats. It would create an imbalance where teams aren't playing against all teams fairly (proleagues)/randomly(OSL/MSL). An example so you can get a better view of it. Lets say Person A and Person B are on fire right now. Person A is allowed to play in GOM while Person B is not allowed to play in GOM. Person A gets a high number of games played thereby his ELO rose significantly. Person B however is an ace for his team and ONLY gets to play around 2-3 televised matches a month. Had he been in GOM he might have had a chance to establish a higher peak ELO but sadly he isn't.
To bring another example with said reason above: Imagine a tournament with only 2 or 3 or 4 teams participating in it... would you count that into the ELO?
Don't wanna edit the second reason to make it sound easier/better but i'm sure if you read it enough times you can get what i mean
So the last MSL and OSL don't count because they had no ACE players?
I disagree with this decision, couldn't care less about Kespa. Why so serious...
Did they have no ACE because ace wasn't recognized? Or because no ACE qualified? Very big difference
They had no ACE players in them because ACE coaches opted out of letting the players play in the prelims. The situation was no different than MBC/OGN/SKT/eSTRO deciding not to play in GOM, just the motivations behind it where different (their PL results were so bad that they weren't allowed in individual leagues).
On April 03 2009 00:21 snapcrackle wrote: I personally don't care about the Kespa hate thing or whether or not it should be hated. But in my opinion what the mods are doing seems like the right choice.
On April 02 2009 19:40 PoP wrote: The reason we care about "Kespa sanctioned" is because the original game list brought into TLPD was only composed of such leagues. If we start counting every single one of them now, the stats would be skewed until we add all the previous ones as well.
So the only other real solution would be to add all the old leagues we're missing (quite a lot imo) and decide (ourselves) which ones should be counted towards ELO and which ones shouldn't. That'd require tons of grunt work tho.
But also because of the following reason: Currently Season 3 contains no SKT players as well as OGN and MBC (correct me if i'm wrong on OGN and MBC please) i believe there are more. Season 1 and 2 also had teams that did not participate. This in effect would also skew the TLPD elo stats. It would create an imbalance where teams aren't playing against all teams fairly (proleagues)/randomly(OSL/MSL). An example so you can get a better view of it. Lets say Person A and Person B are on fire right now. Person A is allowed to play in GOM while Person B is not allowed to play in GOM. Person A gets a high number of games played thereby his ELO rose significantly. Person B however is an ace for his team and ONLY gets to play around 2-3 televised matches a month. Had he been in GOM he might have had a chance to establish a higher peak ELO but sadly he isn't.
To bring another example with said reason above: Imagine a tournament with only 2 or 3 or 4 teams participating in it... would you count that into the ELO?
Don't wanna edit the second reason to make it sound easier/better but i'm sure if you read it enough times you can get what i mean
ur arguments are retarded, the number of games played should have no effect on ELO it's supposed to show raw skill it isnt like a ladder where you get more points for a win and less points taken away when you lose.
jaedong can lose to joeblowkorean no ELO rating in the first round and lose 20 points because of it just as easy as he can earn 1-2 points from beating them
On April 03 2009 00:33 p4NDemik wrote: They had no ACE players in them because ACE coaches opted out of letting the players play in the prelims. The situation was no different than MBC/OGN/SKT/eSTRO deciding not to play in GOM, just the motivations behind it where different (their PL results were so bad that they weren't allowed in individual leagues).
Completely different reasoning. Ace coaches opted out of prelims because their motivation was to make them do better in proleagues. This sacrifice would allow them to have more practice winning proleague matches. Thereby is a more strategic sense of getting wins. Whereas opting out due to competition reasoning (as BS as it is) doesn't give a team an edge. But then again ... as double standard as it does sound... having 1 team out of the OSL/MSL doesn't affect much as having 4 teams out of the GOM Tournament
On April 03 2009 00:21 snapcrackle wrote: I personally don't care about the Kespa hate thing or whether or not it should be hated. But in my opinion what the mods are doing seems like the right choice.
Not only because of this:
On April 02 2009 19:40 PoP wrote: The reason we care about "Kespa sanctioned" is because the original game list brought into TLPD was only composed of such leagues. If we start counting every single one of them now, the stats would be skewed until we add all the previous ones as well.
So the only other real solution would be to add all the old leagues we're missing (quite a lot imo) and decide (ourselves) which ones should be counted towards ELO and which ones shouldn't. That'd require tons of grunt work tho.
But also because of the following reason: Currently Season 3 contains no SKT players as well as OGN and MBC (correct me if i'm wrong on OGN and MBC please) i believe there are more. Season 1 and 2 also had teams that did not participate. This in effect would also skew the TLPD elo stats. It would create an imbalance where teams aren't playing against all teams fairly (proleagues)/randomly(OSL/MSL). An example so you can get a better view of it. Lets say Person A and Person B are on fire right now. Person A is allowed to play in GOM while Person B is not allowed to play in GOM. Person A gets a high number of games played thereby his ELO rose significantly. Person B however is an ace for his team and ONLY gets to play around 2-3 televised matches a month. Had he been in GOM he might have had a chance to establish a higher peak ELO but sadly he isn't.
To bring another example with said reason above: Imagine a tournament with only 2 or 3 or 4 teams participating in it... would you count that into the ELO?
Don't wanna edit the second reason to make it sound easier/better but i'm sure if you read it enough times you can get what i mean
ur arguments are retarded, the number of games played should have no effect on ELO it's supposed to show raw skill it isnt like a ladder where you get more points for a win and less points taken away when you lose.
jaedong can lose to joeblowkorean no ELO rating in the first round and lose 20 points because of it just as easy as he can earn 1-2 points from beating them
no my arguments aren't retarded. sorry but no it isn't. Did you just see what happened to ELO peaks by removing GOM season 2? My arguments aren't retarded. Now learn to be civil rather than ignorantly calling someones point "retarded"
On April 02 2009 19:40 PoP wrote: The reason we care about "Kespa sanctioned" is because the original game list brought into TLPD was only composed of such leagues. If we start counting every single one of them now, the stats would be skewed until we add all the previous ones as well.
So the only other real solution would be to add all the old leagues we're missing (quite a lot imo) and decide (ourselves) which ones should be counted towards ELO and which ones shouldn't. That'd require tons of grunt work tho.
I know there's a lot of people who would be willing to help out including myself on trying to make TLPD a COMPLETE database.
Unfortunately, I haven't been around that long so I don't know all of the touraments or whatnot that went on like '06 or earlier...
But if you need grunt work there's definitely people who are willing to volunteer.
On April 03 2009 00:21 snapcrackle wrote: I personally don't care about the Kespa hate thing or whether or not it should be hated. But in my opinion what the mods are doing seems like the right choice.
Not only because of this:
On April 02 2009 19:40 PoP wrote: The reason we care about "Kespa sanctioned" is because the original game list brought into TLPD was only composed of such leagues. If we start counting every single one of them now, the stats would be skewed until we add all the previous ones as well.
So the only other real solution would be to add all the old leagues we're missing (quite a lot imo) and decide (ourselves) which ones should be counted towards ELO and which ones shouldn't. That'd require tons of grunt work tho.
But also because of the following reason: Currently Season 3 contains no SKT players as well as OGN and MBC (correct me if i'm wrong on OGN and MBC please) i believe there are more. Season 1 and 2 also had teams that did not participate. This in effect would also skew the TLPD elo stats. It would create an imbalance where teams aren't playing against all teams fairly (proleagues)/randomly(OSL/MSL). An example so you can get a better view of it. Lets say Person A and Person B are on fire right now. Person A is allowed to play in GOM while Person B is not allowed to play in GOM. Person A gets a high number of games played thereby his ELO rose significantly. Person B however is an ace for his team and ONLY gets to play around 2-3 televised matches a month. Had he been in GOM he might have had a chance to establish a higher peak ELO but sadly he isn't.
To bring another example with said reason above: Imagine a tournament with only 2 or 3 or 4 teams participating in it... would you count that into the ELO?
Don't wanna edit the second reason to make it sound easier/better but i'm sure if you read it enough times you can get what i mean
ur arguments are retarded, the number of games played should have no effect on ELO it's supposed to show raw skill it isnt like a ladder where you get more points for a win and less points taken away when you lose.
jaedong can lose to joeblowkorean no ELO rating in the first round and lose 20 points because of it just as easy as he can earn 1-2 points from beating them
no my arguments aren't retarded. sorry but no it isn't. Did you just see what happened to ELO peaks by removing GOM season 2? My arguments aren't retarded. Now learn to be civil rather than ignorantly calling someones point "retarded"
The elo's changed because jaedong should have a higher ELO than he does right now, playing more games does not equate into getting a better elo
I'm pretty sure ELO is affected theoretically, but probably not in practice, because of the exclusion of teams, not because of Jaedong playing extra games. (Although a player like Bisu not being able to get enough games in to display his dominance before he loses it is a problem.) If Jaedong is weaker than normal against OGN, MBC, and/or SKT players, (0-2 han comes to mind :O) then it's not fair that Jaedong is allowed to dodge them and have his ELO reflect the results of a partial group of players.
I don't understand why you guys can't dare to be different. Just because Kespa doesn't respect GOM doesn't mean we shouldn't. Hell, those games happened, and since we're never going to have any affect on Korean programing (other than hanging out with Sea[shield] and stuff) I don't see what's wrong with counting them.
I still don't get why KeSPA wouldn't sanction GOM. I mean, to increase the audience and reach out e-Sports to more people, they should do this. I'm guessing that the teams in Proleague or the major sponsors (Shinhan Bank, for example) are somehow pulling the streams to keep the Proleague shining brighter than GOM.
On April 03 2009 08:26 konadora wrote: I still don't get why KeSPA wouldn't sanction GOM. I mean, to increase the audience and reach out e-Sports to more people, they should do this. I'm guessing that the teams in Proleague or the major sponsors (Shinhan Bank, for example) are somehow pulling the streams to keep the Proleague shining brighter than GOM.
it's mostly due to pressure from OGN, MBC, and IEF. they don't want any added competition to their own leagues, and IEF has rights to broadcast games (don't remember if it was msl / osl, or proleague).
On April 03 2009 08:00 Athos wrote: I don't understand why you guys can't dare to be different. Just because Kespa doesn't respect GOM doesn't mean we shouldn't. Hell, those games happened, and since we're never going to have any affect on Korean programing (other than hanging out with Sea[shield] and stuff) I don't see what's wrong with counting them.
i agree!! its silly that the games arent counted just because of little political battles within kespa
On April 03 2009 08:45 Warrior Madness wrote: I'm still waiting for the... "April fools!" ):
Sadly, it's not an April Fools joke. It's true. GOM is recognized as a starcraft tournament but not actually sanctioned, thus doesnt go into the Kespa ratings and whatnot. when I used to give stats on "7 wins, 3 losses in the last 10 games" no GOM match had been included - because Kespa never included them as official games that counted towards the player's stats.
On April 03 2009 08:45 Warrior Madness wrote: I'm still waiting for the... "April fools!" ):
Sadly, it's not an April Fools joke. It's true. GOM is recognized as a starcraft tournament but not actually sanctioned, thus doesnt go into the Kespa ratings and whatnot. when I used to give stats on "7 wins, 3 losses in the last 10 games" no GOM match had been included - because Kespa never included them as official games that counted towards the player's stats.
Sonu, it was never sanctioned in the first place, just "recognized."
And this really doesn't have anything to do with how organized KeSPA is as much as it does have to do with all the crap that goes on behind the scenes because of bickering sponsors/conflicts of interest.
Update: After much discussion with staff: 1. For now, GOM2 will count as results and for ELO rankings. 2. To be consistent, we have added GOM1 to results and ELO rankings as well. 3. GOM Invitational still won't count, but the Bisu/Jaedong Bo5 does count.
With these both added the top 5 ELO Peaks look like this now: 2352 - Bisu 2343 - Jaedong 2329 - iloveoov 2322 - Flash 2301 - sAviOr
On April 04 2009 09:38 Hot_Bid wrote: Update: After much discussion with staff: 1. For now, GOM2 will count as results and for ELO rankings. 2. To be consistent, we have added GOM1 to results and ELO rankings as well.
With these both added the top 5 ELO Peaks look like this now: 2352 - Bisu 2343 - Jaedong 2329 - iloveoov 2322 - Flash 2301 - sAviOr
How did JD's peak go down after adding Gom1? And how did Bisu's go up?
Oh nvm, the special showmatch wasn't counted, could you explain the reasoning behind this?
On April 04 2009 09:38 Hot_Bid wrote: Update: After much discussion with staff: 1. For now, GOM2 will count as results and for ELO rankings. 2. To be consistent, we have added GOM1 to results and ELO rankings as well.
With these both added the top 5 ELO Peaks look like this now: 2361 - Bisu 2329 - iloveoov 2328 - Jaedong 2322 - Flash 2301 - sAviOr
How did JD's peak go down after adding Gom1? And how did Bisu's go up?
Bisu's went up because we had the AI Classic Special Event (The Jaedong 3-2 Bisu) counting.
Jaedong's went down because he won 2-1 vs some scrubs and that drove his rating down. Same for Flash.
Ooooh, this is such an exciting direction for the TLPD, the lines have been blurred. Oh, on the TLPD for GOM S1, you have AzAng as a zerg for one of his games vs JD.
Anyone wanna argue that JD-Bisu should be counted?
1. If we treat it like an "invite" special showmatch then it shouldn't be counted. 2. If we treat it like a "Grand Finals" that is a culmination of both tournaments, then we should count it.
Since it's up for interpretation, we could really go either way, but for now we're treating it as #2.
I dont see why the special match should be counted since the super fights are not but I dont care either way But its a double standard anyway. Imho all tournament matches should be counted in the ELO calculation,but everything else with the word "special" should not be in it. Just my 2 cents
On April 04 2009 09:54 disciple wrote: I dont see why the special match should be counted since the super fights are not but I dont care either way
So should we count Superfights? Shinhan Masters?
Since counting GOM really is breaking the letter of our "rules" for TLPD but validating the spirit, maybe its time to reexamine exactly why we exclude invitationals.
Here are the reasons why invitationals were historically not counted (despite KTF Premiere League counting)
1. The players did not deserve to be invited to the tournament, i.e. no qualifiers or fair selection system like OSL or MSL - as a result it's not good for rankings or ELO GOM Invitational - pure invite on who GOM thought were the best 16 players GOM S1 - much larger invite, but still invite, and forced race balance (33% each race) GOM S2 - same GOM S3 - same Bisu-Jaedong - I don't think anyone would argue that they didn't qualify legitimately by winning their respective seasons
2. The players will not prepare as hard or play their best, i.e. players throwing games, screwing around, this is not good for ELO or rankings GOM Invitational - nobody was not caring / throwing games GOM S1 - same, though you could argue some top players didn't prioritize it as high GOM S2 - same GOM S3 - same Bisu-Jaedong - They practiced ridiculously hard, even requesting extra week for more preparation.
On April 04 2009 10:01 BWdero wrote: Thats probably because the superfights were isolated, whereas the special match was a direct result of GOM season 1 and 2.
well I can bring the "JD was winner of S1 partly because 4 team didnt participate in the event at all" argument. Not that I question the fact that he would've won the hole thing again, but there are a lot of what-ifs. Just keep all tournament games in. Gom themselves call it Special Match and not Grand Finals so... But I guess if gom decide to do this every season (winners of the seasons the face each other) then it indeed should be counted. Right now GOM just used the opportunity to drag some viewer's attention by making a match between the two currently most popular and stronger player in the scene.
GOM S1 - much larger invite, but still invite, and forced race balance (33% each race)
Wow I had no idea about this. Not that it really matters since basically everyone got an invite anyway and those who didn't probably wouldn't have made it past the first round, but still that's interesting.
SuperFight 1 - Boxer vs Yellow, Boxer vs Savior Obviously these shouldn't count, Boxer and Yellow were far below Savior in skills at the time and it'd be ridiculous to have these as official tournament games.
SuperFight 2 - Canata vs Sea, Nada vs Reach Old vs New theme, again purely exhibition and shouldn't count, the "old" players did nothing recently to warrant being invited.
SuperFight 3 - Jju vs Tossgirl, Nada vs Savior Girl vs Guy obviously not counted as its a showmatch. The Nada vs Savior was the MSL vs OSL winner, which is essentially the same as GOM Special Match except that it was organized by an outside party. I would feel much better counting this if MSL/OSL approved the showmatch or agreed to it ahead of time. GOM made it seem like this was their plan all along, since they ran GOM1 and GOM2 and intended for the winners to play. That makes it seem a lot less like a showmatch or exhibition.
Superfight 4 - Proleague style tourney Not counted for obvious reasons, aside from many teams simply not caring that much about it and CJ sending Savior out every round for the eventual win.
Superfight 5 - Tossgirl vs 2 amateurs and Boxer vs Savior Not counted for same reasons as Superfight 1.
On April 04 2009 10:01 BWdero wrote: Thats probably because the superfights were isolated, whereas the special match was a direct result of GOM season 1 and 2.
well I can bring the "JD was winner of S1 partly because 4 team didnt participate in the event at all" argument. Not that I question the fact that he would've won the hole thing again, but there are a lot of what-ifs. Just keep all tournament games in. Gom themselves call it Special Match and not Grand Finals so...
You can make the same argument about GOM2, or the MSL which SKT boycotted way back when.
The difference I'd say between Superfight 3 (MSL champ vs OSL champ Nada vs Savior) was that CJ organized it not MSL/OSL itself, while here GOM organized it. Sure it was called "Special Match" in name, but you could also see S1 and S2 of GOM as qualifiers and this "Special Match" was the real final.
On April 04 2009 10:13 StylishVODs wrote: Will gom season 3 be kespa sanctioned? If not, why? I heard some teams will not participate.. maybe im going offtopic here.
GOM3 won't be sanctioned and SKT, eStro, MBC, and OGN won't be participating.
On April 04 2009 10:01 BWdero wrote: Thats probably because the superfights were isolated, whereas the special match was a direct result of GOM season 1 and 2.
well I can bring the "JD was winner of S1 partly because 4 team didnt participate in the event at all" argument. Not that I question the fact that he would've won the hole thing again, but there are a lot of what-ifs. Just keep all tournament games in. Gom themselves call it Special Match and not Grand Finals so...
You can make the same argument about GOM2, or the MSL which SKT boycotted way back when.
The difference I'd say between Superfight 3 (MSL champ vs OSL champ Nada vs Savior) was that CJ organized it not MSL/OSL itself, while here GOM organized it. Sure it was called "Special Match" in name, but you could also see S1 and S2 of GOM as qualifiers and this "Special Match" was the real final.
I think the main argument against that train of thought would be that the Special Match was decided upon well after S1 was over. Unless someone else can show me an earlier time, I think the earliest we even knew about it was around the semi-finals for S2.
On April 04 2009 10:01 BWdero wrote: Thats probably because the superfights were isolated, whereas the special match was a direct result of GOM season 1 and 2.
well I can bring the "JD was winner of S1 partly because 4 team didnt participate in the event at all" argument. Not that I question the fact that he would've won the hole thing again, but there are a lot of what-ifs. Just keep all tournament games in. Gom themselves call it Special Match and not Grand Finals so...
True, but the fact remains that the special match was a direct result of GOM 1 and 2. It would not even have existed were it not for those two seasons. If you include GOM 1 and 2 it only makes sense to include the special match, since it is a direct product of those two tournaments. And it's not Jaedongs fault that 4 teams did not participate. He beat every contestant thrown at him and as such he earned his spot in the special match.
On April 04 2009 10:01 BWdero wrote: Thats probably because the superfights were isolated, whereas the special match was a direct result of GOM season 1 and 2.
well I can bring the "JD was winner of S1 partly because 4 team didnt participate in the event at all" argument. Not that I question the fact that he would've won the hole thing again, but there are a lot of what-ifs. Just keep all tournament games in. Gom themselves call it Special Match and not Grand Finals so...
You can make the same argument about GOM2, or the MSL which SKT boycotted way back when.
The difference I'd say between Superfight 3 (MSL champ vs OSL champ Nada vs Savior) was that CJ organized it not MSL/OSL itself, while here GOM organized it. Sure it was called "Special Match" in name, but you could also see S1 and S2 of GOM as qualifiers and this "Special Match" was the real final.
well as I said we should just wait and see if GOM are planning to make this match a tradition, otherwise this Special Match would be just an effort by GOM to abuse the huge hype around a possible bo5 between bisu and jd
Discussing including past invitationals is opening up a whole new can of worms. Can't we just look at the Classic as being on such a large scale that it can be viewed as an exception to the previous norm? Dipping into these old showmatches/invitationals so long after the fact just isn't going to lead to the best decision making. The scene has changed since then, and a lot of people here weren't even around when these games were played.
From my point of view the Special Match was a pure invitational event. GOM knew that the community wants a Bo5 between bisu and JD so badly. It just happened so that those two were the respective champions of season 1 and season 2. The concept of this match emerged after it was clear that KTY and LJD won the tournament, I doubt GOM wouldve came to such an idea if the winners were just two other guys. All they did is putting money on the line, so that JD and Bisu might have some motivation to take part of the thing, because lets be clear about that, I doubt those two would ever face eachother in smth called "special match" with only their pride on the line. Then GOM advertised the event like "hey look we will make the most wanted to be seen match in the scene, because our tournaments are so high level, that only the two best players can become champs".
On April 04 2009 10:32 disciple wrote: From my point of view the Special Match was a pure invitational event. GOM knew that the community wants a Bo5 between bisu and JD so badly. It just happened so that those two were the respective champions of season 1 and season 2. The concept of this match emerged after it was clear that KTY and LJD won the tournament, I doubt GOM wouldve came to such an idea if the winners were just two other guys. All they did is putting money on the line, so that JD and Bisu might have some motivation to take part of the thing, because lets be clear about that, I doubt those two would ever face eachother in smth called "special match" with only their pride on the line. Then GOM advertised the event like "hey look we will make the most wanted to be seen match in the scene, because our tournaments are so high level, that only the two best players can become a champs".
If I recall correctly, the special match was announced before Bisu won season 2, so if Jangbi had beaten Bisu the special match would have been Jaedong vs Jangbi, implying that it wasn't just a 'omg we should let bisu fight jaedong' thing. Though I'm sure the fact that it did turn out to be Bisu vs Jaedong made things a lot easier on their marketing department.
On April 04 2009 10:32 disciple wrote: From my point of view the Special Match was a pure invitational event. GOM knew that the community wants a Bo5 between bisu and JD so badly. It just happened so that those two were the respective champions of season 1 and season 2. The concept of this match emerged after it was clear that KTY and LJD won the tournament, I doubt GOM wouldve came to such an idea if the winners were just two other guys. All they did is putting money on the line, so that JD and Bisu might have some motivation to take part of the thing, because lets be clear about that, I doubt those two would ever face eachother in smth called "special match" with only their pride on the line. Then GOM advertised the event like "hey look we will make the most wanted to be seen match in the scene, because our tournaments are so high level, that only the two best players can become a champs".
If I recall correctly, the special match was announced before Bisu won season 2, so if Jangbi had beaten Bisu the special match would have been Jaedong vs Jangbi, implying that it wasn't just a 'omg we should let bisu fight jaedong' thing. Though I'm sure the fact that it did turn out to be Bisu vs Jaedong made things a lot easier on their marketing department.
On April 04 2009 10:32 disciple wrote: From my point of view the Special Match was a pure invitational event. GOM knew that the community wants a Bo5 between bisu and JD so badly. It just happened so that those two were the respective champions of season 1 and season 2. The concept of this match emerged after it was clear that KTY and LJD won the tournament, I doubt GOM wouldve came to such an idea if the winners were just two other guys. All they did is putting money on the line, so that JD and Bisu might have some motivation to take part of the thing, because lets be clear about that, I doubt those two would ever face eachother in smth called "special match" with only their pride on the line. Then GOM advertised the event like "hey look we will make the most wanted to be seen match in the scene, because our tournaments are so high level, that only the two best players can become a champs".
If I recall correctly, the special match was announced before Bisu won season 2, so if Jangbi had beaten Bisu the special match would have been Jaedong vs Jangbi, implying that it wasn't just a 'omg we should let bisu fight jaedong' thing. Though I'm sure the fact that it did turn out to be Bisu vs Jaedong made things a lot easier on their marketing department.
well if this is true,then you are 100% right,sir
I just did a quick search and there is indeed an announcement of Jaedong facing off against the winner of season 2 prior to Bisu winning. As well as several people in the hype/live report threads of Bisu vs Jangbi saying 'doesn't the winner face off against jaedong?/yeah he does so I'm hoping bisu wins' and similar stuff going on.
well I guess the best solution will be to add the match in to the ELO calculation and then to remove it again if GOM decide not to make another match with the same concept after S3
I would say weather or not GOM does this after season 3 is irrelevant. Since it has no bearing on the special match and it's nature as a product of season 1 & 2. Though I would enjoy it if they made it a tradition. Could really help out on giving GOM some prestige, which they are currently lacking in.
I still feel that it shouldn't be counted. If you discount the Superfight 3 - Nada v Savior because it wasn't planned ahead of time and was is treated like an invite, then the Special Match shouldn't count either. I could argue that, using the same logic as Superfight 3, Jaedong should be treated as an "invite" rather than earning the position because it was planned/announced way after he won.
On April 04 2009 11:12 Origami wrote: I still feel that it shouldn't be counted. If you discount the Superfight 3 - Nada v Savior because it wasn't planned ahead of time and was is treated like an invite, then the Special Match shouldn't count either. I could argue that, using the same logic as Superfight 3, Jaedong should be treated as an "invite" rather than earning the position because it was planned/announced way after he won.
He did earn it, if Flash had won instead It would have been Flash vs Bisu. Just because it was announced a long time after he won (quite logical really, since it happened a whole season later and all that) doesn't somehow invalidate his victory.
On April 04 2009 10:13 StylishVODs wrote: Will gom season 3 be kespa sanctioned? If not, why? I heard some teams will not participate.. maybe im going offtopic here.
GOM3 won't be sanctioned and SKT, eStro, MBC, and OGN won't be participating.
it wont be sanctioned? WHAT THE HELL? Can you link some article-translations?
On April 04 2009 10:13 StylishVODs wrote: Will gom season 3 be kespa sanctioned? If not, why? I heard some teams will not participate.. maybe im going offtopic here.
GOM3 won't be sanctioned and SKT, eStro, MBC, and OGN won't be participating.
it wont be sanctioned? WHAT THE HELL? Can you link some article-translations?
None of the GOM tournaments have been sanctioned. Unless there's an article or translation that says KeSPA is sanctioning them, the default view should be that they aren't.
I see "old" peaks are back. OP now says Gom1 is counted, but it seems jd - bisu peaks are unaffected by it, same 2340-350+. And now S3 won't count, that's inconsistency. The correct way was to remove gom stuff from records, elo, i'm surprised to see it changed back. How is S3 worse than S1-2?
ogn/mbc is pretty obvious, but does anybody have a good guess at why estro/skt aren't playing? obviously they won't come out and say, i just don't really see what kind of interest they have in kespa/ogn/mbc?
seems especially weird after skt participated last season.
On April 04 2009 09:54 disciple wrote: I dont see why the special match should be counted since the super fights are not but I dont care either way
So should we count Superfights? Shinhan Masters?
Since counting GOM really is breaking the letter of our "rules" for TLPD but validating the spirit, maybe its time to reexamine exactly why we exclude invitationals.
Here are the reasons why invitationals were historically not counted (despite KTF Premiere League counting)
1. The players did not deserve to be invited to the tournament, i.e. no qualifiers or fair selection system like OSL or MSL - as a result it's not good for rankings or ELO GOM Invitational - pure invite on who GOM thought were the best 16 players GOM S1 - much larger invite, but still invite, and forced race balance (33% each race) GOM S2 - same GOM S3 - same Bisu-Jaedong - I don't think anyone would argue that they didn't qualify legitimately by winning their respective seasons
2. The players will not prepare as hard or play their best, i.e. players throwing games, screwing around, this is not good for ELO or rankings GOM Invitational - nobody was not caring / throwing games GOM S1 - same, though you could argue some top players didn't prioritize it as high GOM S2 - same GOM S3 - same Bisu-Jaedong - They practiced ridiculously hard, even requesting extra week for more preparation.
1. GOM Invite was on who was most popular at the time Why else would players like boxer be invited? GOMS1 was open afaik, but many teams opted out of it because it was not sanction by KeSPA (teams that didn't play were ace, skt, mbc, estro, ogn) GOMS2 was also open, but when it became "recognized" SKT and Ace decided to participate; MBC, OGN and estro still did not participate because it wasn't sanctioned (presumably). S3 as above Bisu-Jaedong was a match that was going to happen regardless; they announced that S1 winner would vs S2 winner a long time ago, just like what happened with SH Masters.
2. Gom Invite - it could be argued that players did not practice as hard for it as other tournaments (a reason GOM made their map pool off of the KeSPA maps) Gom S2-3 as above Bisu-Jaedong; we have no evidence that they practiced extra hard for the series other than GOM's word (afaik) either way, when theres that much money on the line players will take it seriously. Similarly, anything outside of the top 16 typically gets prioritized lower than OSL/MSL/PL unless the players aren't active in anything else.
On April 04 2009 10:01 BWdero wrote: Thats probably because the superfights were isolated, whereas the special match was a direct result of GOM season 1 and 2.
well I can bring the "JD was winner of S1 partly because 4 team didnt participate in the event at all" argument. Not that I question the fact that he would've won the hole thing again, but there are a lot of what-ifs. Just keep all tournament games in. Gom themselves call it Special Match and not Grand Finals so...
You can make the same argument about GOM2, or the MSL which SKT boycotted way back when
The thing is, SKT didn't boycott that MSL. SKT forced the players to choose between participating either in the OSL or the MSL. All but two of the players chose to participate in the OSL, the other two (kingdom and canata iirc) played in the MSL (and failed in the qualis). Thus, SKT never really boycotted the league.. just forced players to dedicate more time to proleague. MBC/OGN/eStro are flat out boycotting the league and indeed if Bisu hadn't have switched teams he wouldn't have participated in GOMS2 and wouldn't have won it. When you eliminate the competition these teams offer (like sea, light, leta, yarnc, luxury (not anymore), hyvaa, up, really) you get left with weird players making the Ro16 like Ganzi.
at the guy above me; estro don't play because they are owned by IEG (same people who own scforall) and they don't participate because they paid big moneys for the proleague rights hence they "own" proleauge atm
On April 04 2009 22:09 Lachrymose wrote: ogn/mbc is pretty obvious, but does anybody have a good guess at why estro/skt aren't playing? obviously they won't come out and say, i just don't really see what kind of interest they have in kespa/ogn/mbc?
seems especially weird after skt participated last season.
SKT I'm not sure, but eStro's sponsors own the rights to broadcast proleague etc (right?) so they have a stake in this too.
On April 04 2009 10:12 Hot_Bid wrote: SuperFight and Shinhan Masters Analysis
SuperFight 1 - Boxer vs Yellow, Boxer vs Savior Obviously these shouldn't count, Boxer and Yellow were far below Savior in skills at the time and it'd be ridiculous to have these as official tournament games.
SuperFight 2 - Canata vs Sea, Nada vs Reach Old vs New theme, again purely exhibition and shouldn't count, the "old" players did nothing recently to warrant being invited.
SuperFight 3 - Jju vs Tossgirl, Nada vs Savior Girl vs Guy obviously not counted as its a showmatch. The Nada vs Savior was the MSL vs OSL winner, which is essentially the same as GOM Special Match except that it was organized by an outside party. I would feel much better counting this if MSL/OSL approved the showmatch or agreed to it ahead of time. GOM made it seem like this was their plan all along, since they ran GOM1 and GOM2 and intended for the winners to play. That makes it seem a lot less like a showmatch or exhibition.
Superfight 4 - Proleague style tourney Not counted for obvious reasons, aside from many teams simply not caring that much about it and CJ sending Savior out every round for the eventual win.
Superfight 5 - Tossgirl vs 2 amateurs and Boxer vs Savior Not counted for same reasons as Superfight 1.
This all being said, I see no problem with Superfight being included in ELO!
The most important thing in my opinion, is that all games be listed in the Database. Whether they "count" towards ELO or not to see who's the "best" player at the time is somewhat less important because the great players are still great. The small differences do produce more fanboy-ism, but I've always read TLPD from a historical standpoint. If match results were completely removed, I wouldn't know that they ever happened! It almost makes me want to just say every game should be counted. If a player doesn't want to take a game seriously it's his own choice, but it doesn't change the fact that he won or lost against that person/race.
Of course, it's pretty obvious which games are "just for fun" and probably shouldn't be counted (but it's still nice to have them listed). I guess you really just have to draw the line somewhere. Perhaps a definition should be made that is independent of Kespa. For example: if a game is played between pro-gamers (who are members of a recognized team), in a tournament, where there is prize money on the line, than the games should be counted.
I don't understand what the big fuss is as long as every game is listed. With or without Kespa's blessing, I think it's pretty obvious what games are serious and which aren't...the Gom Seasons for example, are tournaments that involve over 100 Progamers and have large prizes, so to me it makes sense for them to be included.
"Bisu-Jaedong; we have no evidence that they practiced extra hard for the series other than GOM's word (afaik) either way," The coach asked GOM to push back the match for one week in order to get sufficient practice time, so this point is invalid.
Yes, they pushed back the start date to give them more time to practice, but it really should be obvious if you watched the games that it was the most high level PvZ series ever.
On April 05 2009 03:31 Hot_Bid wrote: Yes, they pushed back the start date to give them more time to practice, but it really should be obvious if you watched the games that it was the most high level PvZ series ever.
The original statement in fomos said they are pushing the event back because SKT and OZ had deciding matches for PL, AND because both of them need more time to prepare
On April 02 2009 19:40 PoP wrote: The reason we care about "Kespa sanctioned" is because the original game list brought into TLPD was only composed of such leagues. If we start counting every single one of them now, the stats would be skewed until we add all the previous ones as well.
Stats don't really work that way. The more of them you have, the more accurate your final data is. The question is whether you want the TLPD ELO to be as accurate a description of the players as possible, or whether you simply want it to reflect their performance in Kespa sanctioned matches. Since the latter is an entirely artificial construct, it only makes sense to include as much data as you have. Mining every last unofficial game is obviously impossible, but since you've got a whole league of games already there it can only make your stats more accurate to include them. The only reason not to would be if you believed in some sort of magical force which altered the physical capabilities of the players when they were playing under Kespa's umbrella. So long as we are content that Stork playing in the GOM studio is the same Stork which attends Proleague, the MSL, the OSL, and who plays in Khan's house, then the choice is pretty clear.
Doesn't this decision take away a lot from YellOw's legacy? We all know him as the "Special Events King", who knows how high his numbers could be if they were counted. If the reasoning is that those special events that YellOw won aren't counted because other players competing in them weren't serious about it, should you legitimize a league/tournament that didn't even have the participation of elite players from 3 entire teams?
On April 02 2009 19:40 PoP wrote: The reason we care about "Kespa sanctioned" is because the original game list brought into TLPD was only composed of such leagues. If we start counting every single one of them now, the stats would be skewed until we add all the previous ones as well.
Stats don't really work that way. The more of them you have, the more accurate your final data is. The question is whether you want the TLPD ELO to be as accurate a description of the players as possible, or whether you simply want it to reflect their performance in Kespa sanctioned matches. Since the latter is an entirely artificial construct, it only makes sense to include as much data as you have. Mining every last unofficial game is obviously impossible, but since you've got a whole league of games already there it can only make your stats more accurate to include them. The only reason not to would be if you believed in some sort of magical force which altered the physical capabilities of the players when they were playing under Kespa's umbrella. So long as we are content that Stork playing in the GOM studio is the same Stork which attends Proleague, the MSL, the OSL, and who plays in Khan's house, then the choice is pretty clear.
Sure you want as much data as you can get but the data won`t be accurate of the players aren`t trying. I`m sure some players put more effort into one league than another and those leagues seem to be kespa sanctioned.
On April 05 2009 15:05 soudo wrote: Doesn't this decision take away a lot from YellOw's legacy? We all know him as the "Special Events King", who knows how high his numbers could be if they were counted. If the reasoning is that those special events that YellOw won aren't counted because other players competing in them weren't serious about it, should you legitimize a league/tournament that didn't even have the participation of elite players from 3 entire teams?
They didn't have participation because those 3 teams are all interested in seeing GOM fail.
And you cannot seriously be comparing GOM to - say - Blizzcon, or King of Kings events?
I don't really know what I think of it. Though I do have to agree with adding the GOM leagues into this, I don't like how my two of my favorite players who were #1 and #2 dropped down and submitted to... Flash.
On April 05 2009 19:16 pindleskin wrote: Has jaedong's elo caught up to flash's peak???
= /..
not including GOM, which is not kespa sanctioned.
Yes, JD has the same ELO Peak with or without Gom S1 or Gom S2.
When they removed S2 JD and Bisu peaks dropped below Flash. Now they've been restored and Flash peak got raped instead.
No, that was the showmatch that caused JD's peak to drop, Adding Gom S1 had no impact on Jaedong's peak.
And it's weird. How is his peak not affected even minimally. he played some(a lot) games there. Was it the same 2343 before change? Since he won s1, and it wasn't 10 years ago it should affect his every elo number after his every match since s1.
On April 05 2009 19:16 pindleskin wrote: Has jaedong's elo caught up to flash's peak???
= /..
not including GOM, which is not kespa sanctioned.
Yes, JD has the same ELO Peak with or without Gom S1 or Gom S2.
When they removed S2 JD and Bisu peaks dropped below Flash. Now they've been restored and Flash peak got raped instead.
No, that was the showmatch that caused JD's peak to drop, Adding Gom S1 had no impact on Jaedong's peak.
And it's weird. How is his peak not affected even minimally. he played some(a lot) games there. Was it the same 2343 before change? Since he won s1, and it wasn't 10 years ago it should affect his every elo number after his every match since s1.
The only noticeable change is to his ELO peak vs P and vs T but nothing in his overall.
On April 04 2009 10:59 disciple wrote: well I guess the best solution will be to add the [JD/Bisu special] match in to the ELO calculation and then to remove it again if GOM decide not to make another match with the same concept after S3
If you are going to count Gom tournaments, you should also count other large non-sanctioned tournaments towards results and elo peak. It's only fair.
I'm talking about things like the 256 man tournament where Jaedong beat Jangbi, and that old Ghem TV tournament where YellOw beat Nada. The TLPD crew is going to have to do a lot of digging.
Bisu gained a shitload of ELO points when he beat everyone in that Batoo OSL wildcard after Backho dropped out. I have to wonder: do wildcard games/tournaments count for Kespa? And should it count for ELO? I see that wildcard tournament as like a second preliminary.
On April 06 2009 13:47 TheTyranid wrote: If you are going to count Gom tournaments, you should also count other large non-sanctioned tournaments towards results and elo peak. It's only fair.
I'm talking about things like the 256 man tournament where Jaedong beat Jangbi, and that old Ghem TV tournament where YellOw beat Nada. The TLPD crew is going to have to do a lot of digging.
what 256 man tournament where jaedong beat jangbi? do we have results somewhere?
On April 06 2009 13:47 TheTyranid wrote: If you are going to count Gom tournaments, you should also count other large non-sanctioned tournaments towards results and elo peak. It's only fair.
I'm talking about things like the 256 man tournament where Jaedong beat Jangbi, and that old Ghem TV tournament where YellOw beat Nada. The TLPD crew is going to have to do a lot of digging.
what 256 man tournament where jaedong beat jangbi? do we have results somewhere?
I think he's talking about the E-sports festival that happened in the summer of 2007.
On April 06 2009 13:47 TheTyranid wrote: If you are going to count Gom tournaments, you should also count other large non-sanctioned tournaments towards results and elo peak. It's only fair.
I'm talking about things like the 256 man tournament where Jaedong beat Jangbi, and that old Ghem TV tournament where YellOw beat Nada. The TLPD crew is going to have to do a lot of digging.
You aren't seriously comparing a 1 day (maybe 2?) event, mostly not broadcasted, to GOM ?
On April 06 2009 13:47 TheTyranid wrote: If you are going to count Gom tournaments, you should also count other large non-sanctioned tournaments towards results and elo peak. It's only fair.
I'm talking about things like the 256 man tournament where Jaedong beat Jangbi, and that old Ghem TV tournament where YellOw beat Nada. The TLPD crew is going to have to do a lot of digging.
You aren't seriously comparing a 1 day (maybe 2?) event, mostly not broadcasted, to GOM ?
None of the GomTV hosted leagues were broadcasted either. They're streamed online, and while it is very well advertized to the foreign communities, the same cannot be said to the Korean communities. The lack of television station hosting it, deliberate sabotaging by Kespa, OGN, MBC Game and numerous e-Sports related organizations, basically made it less visible to the Korean community despite its merits as an e-Sports competition.
As of now, GomTV hosted leagues are not aired on Korean television, are very poorly covered by the Korean e-Sports news sites, has very limited number of viewers compared to the OGN and MBC Game hosted competitions, are not sanctioned by Kespa (this is more important than it seems, as retarded as this organization is) and have multiple teams not taking part.
GhemTV hosted leagues were the only leagues that actually managed to get the title of the "third major league" by the Korean communities, but quickly slipped out of everyone's memories by going out of business. Don't be so quick to dismiss them just to signify the relative importance of GomTV hosted leagues, because MBC Game hosted leagues were just as pathetic back then, and are only recognized as "major individual leagues" because of the prestige of MSL nowadays.
I personally think it really doesn't matter if TLPD decides to add GomTV hosted leagues to be database; it's just a matter of personal preference. There are literally dozens of competitions left of the TLPD, and people are going to have different opinions on which competitions to add. Let's not pretend that a certain "method" of selection is correct, otherwise you'd be making the same retarded conclusions that Kespa is making.
Here's some criterias that needs some thinking over. I'm only counting Korean based competitive Starcraft here, and even then, there's no one that has an accurate record of all those compeitions.
1) Being aired on television. Has the games been broadcasted on television? Should we only count OGN and MBC Game hosted games? What about broadcasting stations that died out, or competitions (not neccessarily the most important) that were broadcasted on national television(which meant more people could watch since its not cable TV)? 2) The prize money. Some of the earlier leagues had some ridiculous cash prizes. Does a larger cash prize mean the competiton matters more? We're going to re-evaluate a lot if that is the case. 3) Number of players participating. Same as number two, some competitions literally had hundreds of players from all over trying to win. More competition means a larger skill pool overall right? 4) Duration of the competition. This is where we rule out a lot of the earlier tournaments I guess. Early progaming in Korea basically was top gamers going from one tournament to another collecting huge sums of cash prizes. In fact, I've heard that players were actually reluctant to participate in competitions that took up a lot of their time, since it was more profitable winning multiple shortly ran tournaments with large cash prizes. But what about the time spent on preparation? Shouldn't that count? If the tournament is only run for a couple of days, then there's basically no thourough preparation we're used to seeing. Then again, there's different priorities for every gamer. The duration of the competition doesn't neccessarily guarantee thourough prepartation, especially nowadays with heavy team duties. 5) The gamers. What do the gamers think? I remember when Go Rush won his first MSL title, people expected him to cry because it was his first "major" title. Instead of crying, he simply said "I'll save my tears for a larger stage", which people interpreted as the OGN Starleague finals. We have some gamers who desperately wanted to win the WCG (I think Yellow once said that he wanted to win this competition the most when he was young), and some who can't be bothered to even participate. Even gamers have different priorities. 6) The fans. What do the fans think? How many people actually watched the competition? How many were there at the stage? How many recall the competition and discuss it after it is over? Then again, we have retarded 11 year olds who think Boxer is overrated because he happened to win "only" three major individual leagues, without knowing he won much more elsewhere, that are not recorded by Kespa. Should we leave the judgement to people some of whom are even more idiotic than Kespa?
I think we have no way of knowing which competitions are the most important. Nobody has been able to witness every single competitive Starcraft gaming in Korea, and even if that was possible, we'll still be having slightly different opinions.
What I am sure of, however, is that if GomTV hosted leagues manage to build up a history as extensive as OGN or MBC Game hosted leagues, we'll be recognizing all their leagues as important, even if some of the earlier ones were very "questionable". Until then, everything we do is a matter of personal taste.
EPT
Bisu
Jaedong
iloveoov
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