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I know it's probably just another "MMR is broken" post. Let's hope things will improve with rankings, but here's a couple of words from a completely new player.
As an example in Warcraft 3 you have a decent level system. First you go up to like level 25-30 then stay there for a while until you learn how to play properly then eventually go up to levels 35-40 which meant you're pretty good.
In SC2 there's was decent ranking system as well. You play constantly and you see how you go up the ladder, eventually you get transferred from bronze to silver then to gold then to plat etc.
Overall you play and you see the results. Like before I was lvl 20 in WC3 or in bronze SC2 and now after a year I'm in plat or diamond, or have 40 lvl battle.net. That boosts your confidence and you see that you are actually making some progress, you improve.
I feel like SC:R battle.net does not have this at all. I started playing a year ago (never played BW before). I play almost every day and my MMR stays the same all the time. When I just started it was around 1100-1500 going up and down like crazy. Having over 1000 games played it's still the same. MMR goes around the same range, never goes higher than 1500. Most of the time around 1250-1400 range. I face the same opponents. I win the same people and lose to the same guys. It's like there's a wall you hit every time you go closer to 1500. Something happens around this MMR (maybe smurfs of pros) and you drop down with like 15-20 loses in a row sometimes.
I feel that (subjectively) no matter how long you play you just stay exactly where you were all the time. I don't see any results or any progress. It's hard to say even by past replays whether I played worse or not. I wonder if it's possible to improve eventually over the years without devoting to the game 8-10 hrs a day like Koreans do. It's very frustrating..
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Nah it just takes time, way more time than you think to level up. Learning has diminishing returns, it is not as easy to go from 1000 to 1500 as it is to go from 1500 to 1800. And going from 2000 to 2500 is extremely hard, I know talented players who can't do it.
I assure you there are no pros below 2000 mmr, in fact 1600-1800 players are generally mediocre, and in the KSL stream the pros played 2200 mmr players and completely destroyed them as well, like the games were hilariously one-sided.
Keep practising, be more systemathic about your learning, write down what you want to focus on next, which BOs, and so on.
Here are some mistakes I still make as a 1900 player that leave a lot to improve, for example:
- I don't know some BOs very well
- Some kinds of rushes still work against some of my BOs, they are not fine tuned
- I get supply blocked when approaching 200/200 sometimes
- My handling of large armies is sub-par
- My APM goes way down in late game
There's always room to improve...
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On July 12 2018 22:23 RAPiDCasting wrote:
What's your APM?
The question should be: What is your opponents APM
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By my experience when I hit such a wall, I try to dedicate more time to watching replays, analyzing games of mine and pros. Try to differentiate what is useful, what is not, and what is cool and based on that improve my game.
And I'd like to underline watching replays, not VODs. VODs and streams are for fun.
By watching FPVods you can gain a lot but first, you need to have very good know-how how to handle starcraft.
The knowledge you gain from streams is very limited as the casters aren't so good as they used to be 10 years ago. Nowadays they just follow the game and often do mistakes in their commentary because of the lack of strategic knowledge that you can gain only through many replays and keeping on with the trends - it's just impossible for them with the pace nowadays.
I know many many people who continue playing the game and don't improve their ranking and gamestyle just because they continue to do the same mistakes over and over again or try to handle the situations in the same manner... which doesn't work so well.
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Making progress in BW is just super hard. Everyone feels that, ppl who dont play 8h/day stays at same rank for years sometimes, im pretty sure most of ppl know this how to be C-/C and dreaming for years about being B rank et cetera. However, the lower the rating, the easier it is to go further. Also Im not sure 1000 is games enought to jump over the D-/D, with i think is todays 1500-1600mmr, there are ppl who plays 10 years and sitting at this lvl.
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I think, unfortunatelly, your experience is rather normal for everyone who picks up this game today and doesn't, as you wrote, makes it a half-time-job to play/learn/study BW.
The hardcore-nature of the game, the size and composition of the community, and the ladder-system lead to all the things you mentioned: facing a lot of better-than-you-players who're smurfing (but probably not as many as you think); remaining around the same level for a long time; playing the same people again and again.
- This game is insanely hard, and not only that, people have been practicing - more or less dedicated - for years, many for over a decade... The game is figured out in so many ways you wouldn't even know about even after playing it for months, so you're really only inching forward if you don't play several hours per day. So once you get over a very basic threshold (in your case quickly, because you're an RTS-veteran), it can take months to make a perceivable step forward.
- It's even harder to see your progress because of the small player pool. There are just not so many people slightly ahead of you which you could out-class like there are in more lively communities like WC3 or SC2. Whenever I log on (Eu-server), it's almost like when ICCup (the private-server everyone used before SC:R) was still around: 300-400 people online, 30-60 games being played. Yes, sadly only a few hundred/thousand people still play this game regularly outside Korea.
- That also means that on your range of the ladder you meet the same guys again and again, especially if you play around the same hours of the day everyday.
- As for smurfing: Nothing keeps experienced players from making new accounts and slaying "noobs". Additionally, the higher you get on ladder, the harder it is to find games, so not even all of them are intentional noob-bashers, but just people who want to play ladder...
Thus, I don't think it's the MMR that is broken. It just takes hell of a commitment to get significantly better, in relation to the people who actually play this game.
On the bright side: I don't know any game in which it is so fullfilling to realize that you actually got better. Or to realize, if you come back after a pause, that the stuff you practiced is still there after a few rounds, the muscle memory and BO knowledge.
Imo the game "opens up" in a new way after you'e played for a long time, taken a longer break maybe. Once all the basic stuff has sunk in, your mechanics are sufficiently developed, you kind of get more humble and don't first of all play for rank/improvement. You find joy in just trying out that one thing you saw on a stream, and thus bit by bit you grow as a player.
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Me too, you can find out me. My ID: SCRVN
I am a Terran player
My win rate:
vs Zerg ~ 30%. Zerg can beat me by all the way. 4 pool, 9 pool, 12 pool. By all the units of the Zerg. I always don't know how do Zerg take strategies and units to combat to me.
vs Terran ~ 53%. I thankful many other Terrans who let me free win.
vs Protoss ~ 55%. I like vs Protoss. Win or lost I even like. I feel like this matchup is very balance for Terran and Protoss.
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On July 12 2018 22:23 RAPiDCasting wrote:
What's your APM?
I have seen many people who have more than 300 apm with 1400 ~ 1499 mmr . So in the 1500 mmr, APM isn't important.
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On July 12 2018 22:44 bovienchien wrote:I have seen many people who have more than 300 apm with 1400 ~ 1499 mmr . So in the 1500 mmr, APM isn't important.
Or they simply smurf the shit out of the game
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On July 12 2018 22:44 bovienchien wrote:I have seen many people who have more than 300 apm with 1400 ~ 1499 mmr . So in the 1500 mmr, APM isn't important.
Yeah but you are not getting to 2000 with < 200 apm
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Nice how, in the course of an hour, everyone who has lived through what you did has gathered here and told you "yeah, sounds about right". xD
I'd also like to give some "advice":
Don't care for rank/points in this game.
If you practice, you will improve, no doubt about that.
Try to practice efficiently, that means: when you're in the mood to learn, and go one step at a time. Watch your replays, find mistakes, start with the very basics that you spot easily, and value structural (macro) mistakes, that show up again and again, over singular situations that cost you one game. Don't try to fix everything at once. E.g. if you notice you're having problems spending all your money in Matchup X around minute Y, work on that and only that for now. If you fix that one thing, you've become a better player.
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It took me some serious improvement to get out of 1500 with zerg. I'm playing at ~1650 right now and am mostly carrying myself with mechanics and playing at around 230-250 apm. I think you can probably make it out with more refined play than mine as opposed to being kinda fast, but either way its difficult.
Yeah but you are not getting to 2000 with < 200 apm
baku is easily 2.2k with like 150 apm as zerg.
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On July 12 2018 22:51 LG)Sabbath wrote:
Yeah but you are not getting to 2000 with < 200 apm
Have you ever watch qualifier of KSL1?
Some players who have less than 150 apm, they are in the group 256 strongest people at offline stage.
I don't want to get 2000 mmr. So I know I can't do it. I just want around 1700 mmr but I have never reached it.
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To be honest though: Bakuryu is an exception.
And you won't find a Terran with 150apm anywhere near even 2k.
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I know a Terrans on 2400 with less than 200apm, and 120apm Terrans on 1800+. APM means nothin, as long as u dont have knowledge how to use it.
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I'll believe it when I see it. Not talking about a few odd games obviously.
And I can imagine there's a way to be 120APM/1800 poins on ladder - in a lockdown in that place.
You cannot play a TvP lategame against a decent Protoss for example with 120 APM...
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I think 1500 may be a barrier as that is where all the accounts start. So when you get there it's a high likelihood that you'll face new accounts of any player, incl. those with much higher MMR.
So when you play vs players below 1500.. you actually play vs players with that skill. When you hit 1500~ there are MOST accounts of any level players, especially that some of them only play few games on that account without laddering it to higher level. And when you get above that level you will start playing with players that are in that range.
So:
<1500 any player with MMR below 1500
=1500 could be any player, and assuming there aren't that many players laddering, a big chance to hit someone who just created a new account
> 1500 high probability to hit someone with that specific MMR
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On July 12 2018 22:26 10dla wrote:The question should be: What is your opponents APM
My APM is around 160-220. My opponent's APM is roughly 120-250, sometimes 300-350, but I never win those matches. When I just started my APM was 120. Now it's higher. That's the only thing I can count as a progress..
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On July 12 2018 23:08 Highgamer wrote:
I'll believe it when I see it. Not talking about a few odd games obviously.
And I can imagine there's a way to be 120APM/1800 poins on ladder - in a lockdown in that place.
You cannot play a TvP lategame against a decent Protoss for example with 120 APM...
If you beat Protoss in first or mid game, you never play in late game.
Probably, I knew why low apm person who can get high mmr. He has only one build order for each race.
Examples:
TvZ: 14 CC and mass 200 M&M
TvT: 3 factories and mass 200 Vultures
TvP: BBS.
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EPT
