People keep coming in here and saying “practice more” and a bunch of other phrases about macro.
I assure you, most of the people here ARE practicing. Stop dismissing our experiences because you don’t understand how frustrating it is to have a ladder that doesn’t reward any progression. That is the whole point of this thread.
It’s a chaotic cluster of shit that doesn’t give a player any gauge on if they’re improving or not. Everyone here probably is slowly improving, but since the ladder is an utter mess at the “skill level” we’re at, it’s incredibly aggravating to go up and down in MMR massive amounts.
On July 13 2018 01:54 rel wrote: BlueStar saying FiShEyE having 150 apm, like it has relevance with how the game is today lol.
Lol exactly. The overall level of play is always improving. So it could be that OP is improving but also the people he plays at 1500 are also improving at the same rate so it is hard to see progress.
Fact of the matter is that Fisheye just has a very good understanding of the game and of course if he played 100% identical to how he played back then he wouldn't reach 2000. If he would just practice a bit and play again now then I'm sure he would have no trouble getting to 2000. But yea, we are not just talking about any random player here though, but one of the better/more talented foreigners at that time.
On July 13 2018 13:59 SchAmToo wrote: People keep coming in here and saying “practice more” and a bunch of other phrases about macro.
I assure you, most of the people here ARE practicing. Stop dismissing our experiences because you don’t understand how frustrating it is to have a ladder that doesn’t reward any progression. That is the whole point of this thread.
No...we are explaining the nature of reality, if you get pissy about that, its on you. We all came from far more harrowing ladders than fucking remastered ever was, with a hell of a more smurfs, random variance, and grinding. Your coddled.
On July 13 2018 13:59 SchAmToo wrote: It’s a chaotic cluster of shit that doesn’t give a player any gauge on if they’re improving or not.
Going up in mmr and playing better players doesnt give you any indication? I'm sorry but using hyperbole to make a point just makes you seem silly.
On July 13 2018 13:59 SchAmToo wrote: Everyone here probably is slowly improving, but since the ladder is an utter mess at the “skill level” we’re at, it’s incredibly aggravating to go up and down in MMR massive amounts.
Everyone is suffering that. It's not just a <1500 problem. Thats why the answer is and always will remain [until blizzard fixes the algorithm] focus on your own weaknesses and have fun. It's not like the OP posted this in the strategy forum asking us to critque his replays. What else are we supposed to do then tell him to buck up and explain the difficulty in getting better in broodwar? Pat his head? Wash his ass?
edit: and the op has stated numerous times hes grateful for the replies. You are the one with the problem.
edit: Let me tell you one thing though, I KNOW your macro is crap. If you simply consistently build workers, don't get supply blocked, spend your money, and follow a half-way decent build order you WILL be able to get WELL past 1500 MMR. Don't get caught up in spending too much effort over microing units if it means your money piles up.
Disagree with the bold strongly:
-Players should do what they find fun, thats the best way to improve, as its a game afterall. improvement shouldnt come at the expense of fun
-pushing your micro to the limits while trying to spend your money is an impossible task for a beginner, but is the process by which you work on multitasking. Your never going to be able to micro and macro unless you first fail a thousand times trying.
Worst trap to fall into for a new player: I wont try x because i cant do it. Exactly wrong.
My point is that micro tends to have diminishing returns, ie: the first 20% of effort accomplishes 80% of the desired effect. Getting your army into the correct general position and then letting a few "a-clicks" take the wheel while you go back for a round of macro and build a new nexus or add on a few gateways is usually the correct decision (especially the building of more units part).
I feel that a lot of new players get caught up watching their army do battle. Meanwhile, they are building up a bank, and even if you slightly out-micro your opponent, if they have 10 more units on the way and you don't, you'll still lose.
Yeah, I agree with you there-- just feel like you have to be careful when talking to newbs. "Dont focus on over microing" might make a new player think: if im microing my mutas and i cant macro while i do that, i shouldnt focus on microing my mutas. But the reality is he should continue to try and do both, fail, and then rise above that plateau. He will be a better player than if he took the quicker route to improvement. You are ofc right about what u said tho.
On July 13 2018 13:59 SchAmToo wrote: People keep coming in here and saying “practice more” and a bunch of other phrases about macro.
I assure you, most of the people here ARE practicing. Stop dismissing our experiences because you don’t understand how frustrating it is to have a ladder that doesn’t reward any progression. That is the whole point of this thread.
No...we are explaining the nature of reality, if you get pissy about that, its on you. We all came from far more harrowing ladders than fucking remastered ever was, with a hell of a more smurfs, random variance, and grinding. Your coddled.
I played ICCUP. I've played many other ranked games. "It was worse in the past" is not a great argument against "this still needs work".
On July 13 2018 13:59 SchAmToo wrote: It’s a chaotic cluster of shit that doesn’t give a player any gauge on if they’re improving or not.
Going up in mmr and playing better players doesnt give you any indication? I'm sorry but using hyperbole to make a point just makes you seem silly.
My entire point is that I, and others, wildly go up and down several hundred MMR, even though we are improving. I know I am, and many many people who review my replays say so too, but my MMR is still a function of RNG.
On July 13 2018 13:59 SchAmToo wrote: Everyone here probably is slowly improving, but since the ladder is an utter mess at the “skill level” we’re at, it’s incredibly aggravating to go up and down in MMR massive amounts.
Everyone is suffering that. It's not just a <1500 problem. Thats why the answer is and always will remain [until blizzard fixes the algorithm] focus on your own weaknesses and have fun. It's not like the OP posted this in the strategy forum asking us to critque his replays. What else are we supposed to do then tell him to buck up and explain the difficulty in getting better in broodwar? Pat his head? Wash his ass?
edit: and the op has stated numerous times hes grateful for the replies. You are the one with the problem.
Yeah I do have a problem? lol? You took a lot of effort to say to a person saying "I have problem" to say "You have a problem." Detective on the case!
You should not think you are not improving because of your mmr, there isn't enough players for your to face opponent around your same level very often, so it is more likely you will play worse or much better than you. Plus it is easier to lose vs weaker than win vs stronger. That means even with a ratio of 3 wins to 1 lose you might get a +10 +9 +9 -25 = +3 pts (awesome). To summarize your improvement isn't proportional to your mmr. It will take more times than you expect. I am in the same situation as you being stuck at that lame 1900mmr because I am gonna lose 25pts on a stupid zvz where I am bad.
I do not know how long you've played or anything other about your personal way of practicing. Likewise I completely acknowledge the frustration you have; practicing and not feeling or getting ladder progress.
But let me tell, I have the exact same experience back when I played on iccup. Getting out of the basic bracket is NOT a smooth ride. I could go up to D+ and D- within a day, between hitting smurfs and newbies.
BUT over time, once you skill evolves to a certain level you will see your rank rising. I was stuck at D for a looong time, but suddently everything clicked and I started rising stability in ranks until I hit my peak.
I think it is part due to the point where you suddently start to "get" how to win and part due to having to play a larger number of games due to the instability of the lower ranks that smurfs give, which can be very frustrating.
So keep playing and improving and suddenly everything will be fun again and then you made a great achievement.
Hey guys ! I coule be wrong but as a 2k mmr player myself i can Tell you that APM is not the core of your problem .
The ladder expérience is not fun and not rewarding for most people due to Not enough player and to laggy.
Back in the days we didnt even have a good ladder système and even iccup wasnt great ! People were smurfing and choosing their mu -the map and even the opponent they would face . #rigged
On July 13 2018 13:59 SchAmToo wrote: People keep coming in here and saying “practice more” and a bunch of other phrases about macro.
I assure you, most of the people here ARE practicing. Stop dismissing our experiences because you don’t understand how frustrating it is to have a ladder that doesn’t reward any progression. That is the whole point of this thread.
It’s a chaotic cluster of shit that doesn’t give a player any gauge on if they’re improving or not. Everyone here probably is slowly improving, but since the ladder is an utter mess at the “skill level” we’re at, it’s incredibly aggravating to go up and down in MMR massive amounts.
Nah, I think most people are saying focused practice is important, not more practice. As I said, I've tried both, I've been playing forever now, I've competed, and the best results I got were from focusing on 1-2 things to improve, constantly reminding myself to do/pay attention to them during the match. When I just spammed games, I rarely improved as much.
Also, as someone mentioned, taking a break helps a lot, weirdly. I find it if I practice/play for a while, then take like a week off and come back, I can see things more clearly and play better.
StarCraft uses a system similar to ELO. It will place you where you belong very quickly, unlike WC3 and to a lesser extent SC2, which take time to place you where you belong. This means that you won't advance in score until you start winning more, meaning that you got better. Then you'll be back to winning 50% and being stuck, once your score again reflects your skill level.
Dear OP. Most people in this thread have given you enough adivce about practice, but I want to suggest something else I think is important. JOIN CPL SEASON 3. I have gained 100-200(yes I fluctuate alot) MMR just from the knowledge and experience I learned there. But more importantly, it is a fun and engaging way to play, grinding the ladder can get old some days, and customs with your team-members are arguably even better. I was on a team with coaches Dragon and Beast, and I learned so much from them already. I have seen people improve so much in not that much time, because we get quick feedback, and extremely good builds to master. I recommend this to all new players, it gives the game a new sense of purpose that you wouldn't get laddering, as necessary as that is.
On July 13 2018 20:00 vOdToasT wrote: StarCraft uses a system similar to ELO. It will place you where you belong very quickly, unlike WC3 and to a lesser extent SC2, which take time to place you where you belong. This means that you won't advance in score until you start winning more, meaning that you got better. Then you'll be back to winning 50% and being stuck, once your score again reflects your skill level.
with a small player base no system works well, tho.
if you want to learn, learn outside ladder with allies and only use ladder to improve certain general aspects, everything else will eat your soul.
On July 13 2018 21:44 MarcoJ wrote: Why are we not waiting for the new ladder system, which will have placement matches and then discuss further improvements?
Because we waited a year for frontier to end thinking it would only be a month or two, waiting to give eventual feedback hasn't been an effective strategy.
On July 13 2018 21:44 MarcoJ wrote: Why are we not waiting for the new ladder system, which will have placement matches and then discuss further improvements?
Because we waited a year for frontier to end thinking it would only be a month or two, waiting to give eventual feedback hasn't been an effective strategy.
between thinking and knowing is a difference though.
I swear I try to give reasonable explanations to why the current ranked system is terrible for low-end players and its goes basically unacknowledged. I guess I need to ask questions about apm to get some feedback.
On July 13 2018 22:22 aweb wrote: I swear I try to give reasonable explanations to why the current ranked system is terrible for low-end players and its goes basically unacknowledged. I guess I need to ask questions about apm to get some feedback.
I read it and found it quite interesting, though doubtful if it would change too much, depending on what you expect of a ladder. Training via ladder usually means you want to get paired up against people a rank above you in an ideal case, so you can explore your own errors. This Blizzard seems to provide to some extent, but not a very nicely supported one. There are many issues with the ladder, the ones you adressed surely are among the more important things.
I can only suggest again you mainly use the ladder to befriend people and train with those, or even better: join a clan that actively participates in leagues and tournaments. In talking about the game and training against similar people, you can achieve a bit more and train on a variety of different maps, than just the standard Blizz offers.
Honestly the normal distribution is probably centered on 1500. I think that happens with these ELO rating systems. I play chess at a few different sites. I checked out one (lichess.org) and the center of the bell curve for all the different time controls in 1500, which is the starting rating for all the members. That means the vast majority of players are in Brood War are likely fluctuating between 1400 and 1600. So it's not just you, it's most people.
Not sure why people think the ladder system itself, MMR and what not is broken. There is a simple solution: 1 Account-1 ladder account. People smurf the shit out of every game in which they can create a new account with 4-5 clicks. When i joined Shield Battery i first tried a smurf. People seem to be bored or dont want to play exhausting games on their level
EPT
