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On July 12 2018 23:17 QuadroX wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2018 22:26 10dla wrote:On July 12 2018 22:23 RAPiDCasting wrote:
What's your APM? The question should be: What is your opponents APM My APM is around 160-220. My opponent's APM is roughly 120-250, sometimes 300-350, but I never win those matches. When I just started my APM was 120. Now it's higher. That's the only thing I can count as a progress..
"Only thing I can count as a progress".
Did you ever have a good player watch/analyse your replays? What would you consider a progress? Seems like a fixiation on the rank/points or win/loss-ratio, and as this thread should have shown you, that's not a good indicator in this particular community (for now).
It's impossible to learn this game without reading quality guides or having exchange with better players than yourself and then watching your replays, fixing mistake after mistake. This way there should always be something to point out that has improved.
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Well, only from Poland becouse I do not actively follow anymore scene. WolF = ~200APM terran - 2400MMR, mca64 also terran was C/C+ (1800-2000) with 120-150apm. I might be wrong but as i remember iopq is also very low apm (~150) with 2000MMR, but he is zerg. I know some guy from Sweden who was like 150apm B rank terran, lel. Your imagination about APM is just wrong bro, focus on understanding game, speed will come with that.
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On July 12 2018 23:14 kogeT wrote:
I think 1500 may be a barrier as that is where all the accounts start. So when you get there it's a high likelihood that you'll face new accounts of any player, incl. those with much higher MMR.
So when you play vs players below 1500.. you actually play vs players with that skill. When you hit 1500~ there are MOST accounts of any level players, especially that some of them only play few games on that account without laddering it to higher level. And when you get above that level you will start playing with players that are in that range.
So:
<1500 any player with MMR below 1500
=1500 could be any player, and assuming there aren't that many players laddering, a big chance to hit someone who just created a new account
> 1500 high probability to hit someone with that specific MMR
This is an interesting post, but to put it a little bluntly perhaps, the level of opposition in the average ~ 1500 skill game really isn't that formidable.
This isn't to say that a 200-200 1500 mmr player cannot be an impossible opponent to beat for a new player, but rather that for a player around that level, identifying and working on improving the most critical factors of his game and climbing past the "ladder wall" you are describing should be quite achievable!
I'm not so familiar with what resources are available for new players like yourself, but lots of people will be willing to help you out I am sure. Maybe post a thread with a few replays in the strategy section?
What do you consider to be the strengths and weaknesses of your game? If you know what your weaknesses are, great! Go work on them. If you don't have any idea, improving will probably be much harder.
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Wow reading through the posts game me so much insight. I guess in BW it's by far harder to improve than in any other RTS, so I can't compare it to SC2/WC3. Also didn't know that people could play this game for 10 years and still be at my level (which is a bit less than 1 year).
Answering questions of Highgamer. I do watch replays, Korean streams, watch my own games, ask people questions, take part in some foreign tournaments and clan leagues. I have a proper fat paper notebook dedicated to BroodWar and take all the notes there. It's already like 50 pages long with general tips, build orders, drawings of good positions to flank and stuff like that. Occasionally I re-read those things. I've read many articles, read Boxer's memoirs. I do my homework if you see what I mean. The point was is regardless of doing all those things I feel like I'm not getting anywhere. Me half a year ago and me now play roughly the same despite all those things. It's hard to notice that you're getting better.
As for the long breaks that someone suggested. I took almost a week without BW and it's like I'm starting the game all over again (in a bad sense). It gets much harder to play without practicing daily. Controlling workers, supply blocks, hitting the build timings, everything goes wrong. I highly doubt taking long breaks would help to improve.
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On July 12 2018 21:55 QuadroX wrote:
I know it's probably just another "MMR is broken" post. Let's hope things will improve with rankings, but here's a couple of words from a completely new player.
As an example in Warcraft 3 you have a decent level system. First you go up to like level 25-30 then stay there for a while until you learn how to play properly then eventually go up to levels 35-40 which meant you're pretty good.
In SC2 there's was decent ranking system as well. You play constantly and you see how you go up the ladder, eventually you get transferred from bronze to silver then to gold then to plat etc.
Overall you play and you see the results. Like before I was lvl 20 in WC3 or in bronze SC2 and now after a year I'm in plat or diamond, or have 40 lvl battle.net. That boosts your confidence and you see that you are actually making some progress, you improve.
I feel like SC:R battle.net does not have this at all. I started playing a year ago (never played BW before). I play almost every day and my MMR stays the same all the time. When I just started it was around 1100-1500 going up and down like crazy. Having over 1000 games played it's still the same. MMR goes around the same range, never goes higher than 1500. Most of the time around 1250-1400 range. I face the same opponents. I win the same people and lose to the same guys. It's like there's a wall you hit every time you go closer to 1500. Something happens around this MMR (maybe smurfs of pros) and you drop down with like 15-20 loses in a row sometimes.
I feel that (subjectively) no matter how long you play you just stay exactly where you were all the time. I don't see any results or any progress. It's hard to say even by past replays whether I played worse or not. I wonder if it's possible to improve eventually over the years without devoting to the game 8-10 hrs a day like Koreans do. It's very frustrating..
Hey when I used to play I was stuck in the same situation. I was playing for years as a casual gamer at the same skill level. I think for like 5 years I was just average. You have to really tell yourself you will improve. Like read wikipedia for a better understanding of strategies and ask better players for tips on bnet. After I committed to focusing on improving I went from C-/C to B-/B.
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I'll just say that Fisheye got 2nd in WCG with 150 APM, please stop with this nonsense.
APM is just noob benchmark tool, nothing more.
On the topic - I believe breaks do help, maybe not directly but you can get a different kind of perspective some times!
I look at the game in a different way after a week or month off the game. At first it's really tough to do all the things that you do in SC tho 
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1500 is supposed to be the meaty part of ladder, and every 100 points is a standard deviation. Obviously with a low population pool and idiosyncratic abilities, the reality of 100=standard deviation is not true, you can get decent fluctuations. But still, overall 1500 compared to like 1700 is night and day. If your overall swings are getting progressively closer to 1500/past 1500, that is progress. But as I said, this is the meaty part of ladder, once you get past 1500, you are better than the average bw player. And its been out twenty years, so expect slow progress. Just enjoy the game.
I know some people who never made it out of D ranks in iccup (1100-1400 I think?) even after a decade of playing. 
edit: you should try image training. imagine yourself playing a game from start to finish, provably this is a way to accelerate learning.
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On July 13 2018 00:21 BlueStar wrote:I'll just say that Fisheye got 2nd in WCG with 150 APM, please stop with this nonsense. APM is just noob benchmark tool, nothing more. On the topic - I believe breaks do help, maybe not directly but you can get a different kind of perspective some times! I look at the game in a different way after a week or month off the game. At first it's really tough to do all the things that you do in SC tho
It is a useful benchmark for newbies, who have <100 apm. Ok the barrier might not be 200, let's say it's 150. You are not going to reach 2000mmr with <100 apm, period. It is useful for a newbie to know this, to know that some hand speed is required to play this game, let's not act like an 80 year old with no hand speed can become a pro.
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TLADT24920 Posts
OP, if you've been playing that much for the past year, I'm more than positive that your game has gotten much better. Best way to realize this is to compare the reps of a game from half a year ago to a present one. Take a look at resources, supply, upgrades, tech etc... at various times and I'm more than positive you will see a difference.
I agree with the idea of taking breaks. I'm a pretty casual player and every time I've taken a break, my game has improved considerably. Of course, it may take 2-3 games to 'feel back' again, but everything about my game improves. One of the biggest and most important thing in BW is awareness and I feel that mine goes up every time I come back. Working on that should help you improve quite a bit.
What some folks stated about 1500 being a meaty MMR is something I also agree with. Best of luck!
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On July 13 2018 00:16 QuadroX wrote:
Wow reading through the posts game me so much insight. I guess in BW it's by far harder to improve than in any other RTS, so I can't compare it to SC2/WC3. Also didn't know that people could play this game for 10 years and still be at my level (which is a bit less than 1 year).
Yeah it's common, I probably stayed at 1700-1800 level for many years myself, now getting a little better with more focused practice (write down BOs, play many games with same BO, compare with how pros do it in VODs, etc.)
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I am in the same situation as QuadroX.
I think this thread is turning to a referendum on our play, and less on the matchmaking system. This might start to sound like a cop-out for not being good enough, but blaming us as players might also be a cop-out for a bad ranked system?
I hadn't played BW until shortly after the announcement of SC:RM. I was a decent Wings of Liberty player (Plat, beating Diamonds), but was really intrigued by the idea of being competent at the grand-daddy of esports - Broodwar. Since the RM release, I feel completely unrewarded for the amount of time that I spend playing the game (aside from a pretty cool Mutalisk player icon).
A lot of this comes down to the fact that the matchmaking system is completely demoralizing. I consider myself to be a pretty persistent/determined person but after a year I have nothing notable to tell other gamers from an outside perspective* (no promotions, rating is too susceptible to 150 pt swings). For people in our situation, it seems like we're just as likely to have a competitive match in Ranked as we are in joining '1v1 FS' in the public game section.
There needs to be a way to differentiate players < 1500 because they seem to be worlds different in skill, but all stuck in the same spot. Personally I don't mind arbitrarily setting a new account's MMR to 1500, but giving them 1500 rating is crushing developing players. Let's walk through this 100% probable scenario for a new player.
Create account - 1500
Lose 8 games straight - 1330
Win 1 game - 1345
Lose another 4 games - 1200
Wait in queue
Lose a close match - 1185
Wait in queue
Lose again - 1160
Wait in queue
Create new account - 1500
Repeat
We need to understand that basically no new players are actually 1500 players. Dropping 350 points in an afternoon then waiting in queue is not a pleasant experience. There is no level of accomplishment until after players breach the 1500 mark, which is actually quite a feet for new players. I'd be curious to see how many people bought SC:RM got destroyed in a few Ranked games and never came back because they they didn't think there was anyone as bad as them.
The simplest solution I can come up with for Season 2 of ranked would be to reduce the starting rating from 1500 to 0. Players are comfortable losing a handful of games until they're matched against an equal opponent, but there is no place for them to settle when they can just create a new account at 1500 every afternoon. MMR and Rating are separate from one another, so if Flash creates a new account he will probably be vs pros again in 10-20 games, but his actual rating might still be ~1200 until he gets enough games in. Once MMR and Rating meet that's a pretty good indicator of what your actual skill level is.
* I know I'm improving. - Muta micro, sniping obs & vessels, syncing dark swarm with zerglings & lurkers engagements, advancing through tech tree more quickly.
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Why make a new account, though?
It'd be a good way to find a game quickly, but you're unlikely to get an even match, then.
There's no way past this. If you're starting out, you'll have to wait in queue, there just isn't enough other beginners.
You'll have to wait in queue once you break past 1900-something, too.
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BlueStar saying FiShEyE having 150 apm, like it has relevance with how the game is today lol.
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On July 13 2018 01:54 rel wrote:
BlueStar saying FiShEyE having 150 apm, like it has relevance with how the game is today lol.
I'd bet, fisheye would win vs most of us after 100 games, with his skills from back then.
guess, we'll never know...
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real playas worry about the quality of play instead of quantity of points.
get good enough to be able to evaluate your own play objectively and doors will open faster (and yes more points will come).
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@aweb: i think your mostly right, but its also mostly moot. 1.22 is going to place people into categories off of only 5 games, just like sc2. Going forward there should be far more accurate sorting.
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On July 13 2018 01:41 Soulforged wrote:
Why make a new account, though?
It'd be a good way to find a game quickly, but you're unlikely to get an even match, then.
There's no way past this. If you're starting out, you'll have to wait in queue, there just isn't enough other beginners.
You'll have to wait in queue once you break past 1900-something, too.
I'm sure you have more than one account. Everyone does it. You already said its faster queues. Not to mention, there is a case to be made that you improve more when you play against people who are slightly better than you. So it's possible that we're seeing MMR < 1500 caught in the undercurrent of an effect like that.
Every new player hypothetically has a rating floor which is effectively where their rating would settle if they played maybe 50ish games, but the floor begins to be more fuzzy when you consider that some of those < 1500 players continue to reset their rating by making new accounts. Even if you're one of the people who chooses to keep things to one specific account, you might not be matched up against others who are similar skill because they keep playing on new accounts in their attempts to compete against tougher opponents.
Consider:
A true 1450 player wants to push to 1500 without the threat of losing rating. Would they be better off on their main account or making a smurf, and getting free practice against slightly tougher competition? If their goal is to brag about their current standing on ranked, then they should smurf until they are improved enough to push their main account.
Now consider that if I'm 1400 and I think that if I want to improve I want to play vs 1450 people, the best thing I can do is create a new account and do the same thing as the 1450 player. What is my best solution? To make a new account.
It's a whirlpool of players that are all trying to get an edge in learning by playing vs tougher competition that is simply caused by an arbitrary starting point that provides little benefit to the SC:BW scene.
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On July 13 2018 02:28 Dazed. wrote:
@aweb: i think your mostly right, but its also mostly moot. 1.22 is going to place people into categories off of only 5 games, just like sc2. Going forward there should be far more accurate sorting.
Wow I didnt know that. That's a relief
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@aweb: you make really good points.
I believe for newer players who havent played iccup much, the actual ranking (MMR) value is very important for motivation and i also have some friends who tried and were obsessed with trying "not to lose points" after starting at 1500. So if you start at 0 then obviously you dont have this problem. But then the problem is if you do that, you will forever be on the region where people start their new account and it will actually make it way harder to ever improve as opposed to hovering around, say, 1200MMR.
The new league system will hopefully fix this by introducing ranks so that 1000-1550 is D (for example, the numbers dont matter) and then people will focus on the letter (D/silver, w/e you want to call it) and not the difference between 1450 and 1448 (if that makes sense).
All the past ladders such as WGT, PGT and iccup used that rank system rather than the MMR/points. Sure the points were there but nobody would use that to give their rank and it worked pretty well.
@op: sadly the player population is fairly small so the steps can feel higher but dont despair! I m sure you ve improved more than you think in little ways. Sometimes it s just a little thing holding you back and when it clicks it feels great. I sucked at pvt for 15years, always being below 25% and 2yrs ago for some reason i finally started getting better, there is no single root cause: slightly better macro probably, better army (goon) control, faster expo (less afraid of vults) etc... They all pile up and you need to fix one at a time. Good luck!
Edit: typo because i cant write properly on my phone TT
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@WGT-Baal Thanks!
Also, I did a bit of testing
https://imgur.com/a/7OzzStX
Here are some profiles I have on my accounts that show just how many people are playing between 1-0 and 0-1. There exists more accounts between the two than there are above 1-0 total, and 1.5x more than the number of accounts between 1442 & 1248.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://imgur.com/a/7OzzStX)
