I completely understand your point. And I think you are getting fed information that is irrelevant and/or nothing to do with what you're asking. I along with many others are facing similar situations as you and the answer is simple. It really comes down to 2 points of interest, 1 of which KogeT hit on the head (kudos to KogeT).
Point 1: As KogeT mentioned, there are constantly new names and smurfs being created. So it doesn't matter what your MMR is. Depending on the location and time you play, you may very well end up playing 2K++ MMR people on smurf on new name over and over (until they achieve too many points to match with you anymore). The solution to this is simple...people should only be allowed to have one name for laddering. People will start bitching and whining about "what if I need to practice blah blah blah"....then just play a melee game. Host a "1v1 zerg only" or something. You don't NEED to ladder. Laddering is about finding good 1;1 games and trying to see your rank and how far up the totem pole you can move. Me for example, I've gotten slammed by Nyoken about 8 times in 30 games under various accounts of his. That should literally never happen. I should never even be considered in the same stratosphere. So this is point 1 about why it happens. Whoever is powerbombing you over and over is just some really good player who made a new name for any number of reasons.
Point 2: The second point is about Blizzard itself. They fucked up the ladder system big time. People are gonna cry and bitch and moan here too but basically I don't care. I use myself an example. When the ladder system was still fresh, I was playing ALL kinds of people from all over the world. This was awesome. I got to play people of all different skill levels. I was playing mostly competative games with a few lopsided ones. Now, with whatever "fix" (fix my ass) blizzard did, it takes forever to match me. And when I do, I play the same 10 people over and over. I either stomp them or they stomp me. It is not enjoyable and I hover around the same MMR...moving up and down quickly, for no reason. The solution to this is simple; go back to how it was or improve it to be similar to how it was, minus the lag.
So this is basically the correct answer. You can ignore everything else in the thread. I just saved you 2 hours of your time.
You're welcome.
Wow, that's one of the best replies here so far, thanks! I completely agree with you man.
I felt the same on the day Remastered went to public there were better games (closer skill matching) and better ladder system. Then people started bitching about the lag and after constant waves of "fixing" this system we come to this point. I also think there might be way more players online when SC:R was just out (like for the first couple of weeks since the release date), especially new players, then they realized how hard the game is and left. They had a very good idea of global matchmaking and it was the way to go since the player pool is so low. If not for this damn "semi-local matchmaking" fix! I tried to post this to blizzard forums about that issue but the majority of players still prefer lesser lag over the queue time and better ladder. In the last Developer Update post they say they finally got the ladder system right in terms of latency and they are pretty happy about the change, so I doubt it would be reconsidered in the future updates. Glad that not only I think that lag fixes should not be at the cost of good match making.
On July 12 2018 21:55 QuadroX wrote: I feel that (subjectively) no matter how long you play you just stay exactly where you were all the time. I don't see any results or any progress. It's hard to say even by past replays whether I played worse or not. I wonder if it's possible to improve eventually over the years without devoting to the game 8-10 hrs a day like Koreans do. It's very frustrating..
Here are some resources that may be interesting to you.
What are your goals in starcraft? I think the easiest race to play at low to intermediate levels is protoss, but you can play whatever you enjoy the most.
You can ignore most of the the discussion on APM. I don't really play anymore but I'm a 2000+ protoss player with ~150 APM.
edit: Let me tell you one thing though, I KNOW your macro is crap. If you simply consistently build workers, don't get supply blocked, spend your money, and follow a half-way decent build order you WILL be able to get WELL past 1500 MMR. Don't get caught up in spending too much effort over microing units if it means your money piles up.
Thank you, I've read the first two articles before and listened to Day9 podcasts. Good stuff! Yeah I suck at all fronts even pumping army and not ever getting supply block is hard. There's definitely room for improvement let's see how I do in another year from now. :D Also somebody suggested to look at my army count at a certain game time. That's very good point, I'll compare my first and last replays. Hope I'll see the difference.
On July 12 2018 21:55 QuadroX wrote: I know it's probably just another "MMR is broken" post. Let's hope things will improve with rankings, but here's a couple of words from a completely new player.
As an example in Warcraft 3 you have a decent level system. First you go up to like level 25-30 then stay there for a while until you learn how to play properly then eventually go up to levels 35-40 which meant you're pretty good.
In SC2 there's was decent ranking system as well. You play constantly and you see how you go up the ladder, eventually you get transferred from bronze to silver then to gold then to plat etc.
Overall you play and you see the results. Like before I was lvl 20 in WC3 or in bronze SC2 and now after a year I'm in plat or diamond, or have 40 lvl battle.net. That boosts your confidence and you see that you are actually making some progress, you improve.
I feel like SC:R battle.net does not have this at all. I started playing a year ago (never played BW before). I play almost every day and my MMR stays the same all the time. When I just started it was around 1100-1500 going up and down like crazy. Having over 1000 games played it's still the same. MMR goes around the same range, never goes higher than 1500. Most of the time around 1250-1400 range. I face the same opponents. I win the same people and lose to the same guys. It's like there's a wall you hit every time you go closer to 1500. Something happens around this MMR (maybe smurfs of pros) and you drop down with like 15-20 loses in a row sometimes.
I feel that (subjectively) no matter how long you play you just stay exactly where you were all the time. I don't see any results or any progress. It's hard to say even by past replays whether I played worse or not. I wonder if it's possible to improve eventually over the years without devoting to the game 8-10 hrs a day like Koreans do. It's very frustrating..
I completely understand your point. And I think you are getting fed information that is irrelevant and/or nothing to do with what you're asking. I along with many others are facing similar situations as you and the answer is simple. It really comes down to 2 points of interest, 1 of which KogeT hit on the head (kudos to KogeT).
Point 1: As KogeT mentioned, there are constantly new names and smurfs being created. So it doesn't matter what your MMR is. Depending on the location and time you play, you may very well end up playing 2K++ MMR people on smurf on new name over and over (until they achieve too many points to match with you anymore). The solution to this is simple...people should only be allowed to have one name for laddering. People will start bitching and whining about "what if I need to practice blah blah blah"....then just play a melee game. Host a "1v1 zerg only" or something. You don't NEED to ladder. Laddering is about finding good 1;1 games and trying to see your rank and how far up the totem pole you can move. Me for example, I've gotten slammed by Nyoken about 8 times in 30 games under various accounts of his. That should literally never happen. I should never even be considered in the same stratosphere. So this is point 1 about why it happens. Whoever is powerbombing you over and over is just some really good player who made a new name for any number of reasons.
Point 2: The second point is about Blizzard itself. They fucked up the ladder system big time. People are gonna cry and bitch and moan here too but basically I don't care. I use myself an example. When the ladder system was still fresh, I was playing ALL kinds of people from all over the world. This was awesome. I got to play people of all different skill levels. I was playing mostly competative games with a few lopsided ones. Now, with whatever "fix" (fix my ass) blizzard did, it takes forever to match me. And when I do, I play the same 10 people over and over. I either stomp them or they stomp me. It is not enjoyable and I hover around the same MMR...moving up and down quickly, for no reason. The solution to this is simple; go back to how it was or improve it to be similar to how it was, minus the lag.
So this is basically the correct answer. You can ignore everything else in the thread. I just saved you 2 hours of your time.
You're welcome.
Yeah, isnt it odd that you played everyone when everyone was in the same MMR? What do you want, a MMR reset every month?
On July 13 2018 13:59 SchAmToo wrote: People keep coming in here and saying “practice more” and a bunch of other phrases about macro.
I assure you, most of the people here ARE practicing. Stop dismissing our experiences because you don’t understand how frustrating it is to have a ladder that doesn’t reward any progression. That is the whole point of this thread.
It’s a chaotic cluster of shit that doesn’t give a player any gauge on if they’re improving or not. Everyone here probably is slowly improving, but since the ladder is an utter mess at the “skill level” we’re at, it’s incredibly aggravating to go up and down in MMR massive amounts.
Yeah actually that was the point. 100% agree on that one. Though some people found FishEye APM discussions more interesting. :D
Tranlating for blizzard devs: K-factor of elo aka mmr is just to high, so point fluctuations are also to high. Also there should be some lock for ladder acounts, like 2 max - per person. Thats all.
On July 12 2018 22:30 Poegim wrote: Making progress in BW is just super hard. Everyone feels that, ppl who dont play 8h/day stays at same rank for years sometimes, im pretty sure most of ppl know this how to be C-/C and dreaming for years about being B rank et cetera. However, the lower the rating, the easier it is to go further. Also Im not sure 1000 is games enought to jump over the D-/D, with i think is todays 1500-1600mmr, there are ppl who plays 10 years and sitting at this lvl.
1500 generally feels around D+/low C- level. Most of the guys I know that were solid C players seem to be between 1600-1800 depending. Most near B before are hanging close to 2k now.
Even guys at 1200 are playing okay, concepts of builds and usually something that at least resembles macro, aka D level.
On July 12 2018 22:30 Poegim wrote: Making progress in BW is just super hard. Everyone feels that, ppl who dont play 8h/day stays at same rank for years sometimes, im pretty sure most of ppl know this how to be C-/C and dreaming for years about being B rank et cetera. However, the lower the rating, the easier it is to go further. Also Im not sure 1000 is games enought to jump over the D-/D, with i think is todays 1500-1600mmr, there are ppl who plays 10 years and sitting at this lvl.
1500 generally feels around D+/low C- level. Most of the guys I know that were solid C players seem to be between 1600-1800 depending. Most near B before are hanging close to 2k now.
Even guys at 1200 are playing okay, concepts of builds and usually something that at least resembles macro, aka D level.
If 1500 is the very middle of the bell curve, which it probably is, then a 1500 player should be "C" by definition
Not sure if you are familiar with Day[9]'s BW podcasts and videos, but they are an invaluable educational resource. They are quite old but it'll help at this level (L_Master said that 1500 is about D+ to low C-).
I got to D+ (pre ICCUP rank inflation) a long time ago in large part due to what I've learnt from him, and I'm sure his advice doesn't stop being useful at D+.
His videos were very different back then as his target audience was to a small group of BW enthusiasts, so try to have an open mind if you don't like his newer videos.
Why do people complain playing someone better than then? I'm happy if I meet someone much better at my 1500 level. I can learn so much from the replay by studying a better BO the opponent had, his macro, and most important - the timings of a good BO.
Let me give you an example - what time does muta come to terran base? If you play against a bad player, maybe it will be 20-30 seconds late, and you will learn the wrong timing to build turrets. Yes the game will be more "equal", but you will be learning the wrong stuff. A good zerg will force you to learn the correct timing, and also force you to learn correct micro against muta.
Also winning against someone, just because they didn't have zergling/overlord in front of your base and you walked that person with 2 rax mm, doesn't feel that good... It just feels that your opponent made a terrible mistake, and you know you'd never win this way against proper play, just maybe get a slight lead.
In addition to all the links posted here, check out these vids by artosis:
After 1000 games I'm still in 1450-1500 range, but recently I finally got to make 200/200 2-1 mech army at 13:30 and roll over my opponent. So by studying my timings, I know I'm improving, even though my mmr is around the same.
On July 14 2018 09:29 angrypofke wrote: Why do people complain playing someone better than then? [when here you could learn how to lose correctly etc.]
Another point that is made again and again in these kinds of threads, which doesn't react to what OP actually talked about, praising a personal preference how games should be played, implying that another persons opinion is wrong.
I'm sure you meant it in the best way, trying to show OP another perspective on the harshness of BW, but:
Why complain? Because not everyone is 100% unaffected by getting bashed regularly by better players, on a "ladder" of which the developers officially claim that it's able match you against people of your caliber. Sometimes some people want to face people of their caliber, they want this and there's nothing wrong with it.
I think I learned something from the posts of people who actually answered to OP and I feel a bit sorry for being part of those who almost derailed a thread again.
Why complain? Because not everyone is 100% unaffected by getting bashed regularly by better players, on a "ladder" of which the developers officially claim that it's able match you against people of your caliber. Sometimes some people want to face people of their caliber, they want this and there's nothing wrong with it.
The problem is the implication that its something special to the ladder or unique to their own experience, or unique to this time. D on ICC was always a cluster fuck. So was C. So was B. So was Fish. I've played people at my level and 8-0d them one day, they embarrassed me the next.
The mm isnt ideal but it will never be ideal because this is a fucking hard game with a small population pool and the skill sets vary so wildly that mere idiosyncratic matchups can result in wildly divergent consequences. Hell, I regularly ran into 200+ apm macro bots at low levels in bw, who could do nothing but a single build, macro well. Any deviation from standard by their opponent, any harass, any pressure, they collapse. You know how long it took me to realize the difference between a macro bot and a good player? Long enough for me to roll my eyes with indifference when I hear complete newbs say they're being crushed by smurfs.
If you cant handle losing a lopsided game frequently, you cant handle broodwar. Because thats what broodwar is even with evenly matched opponents.
Also, if you sometimes you get crushed, doesn't mean your opponent is necessary stronger than you. Maybe he just got away with faster expansion (and you didn't punish for it), maybe a quicker tech. And the end result is it looks like you got owned.
Matches between players, who don't know BOs and counters that well, can easily become one sided. Hell, even pros sometimes make other pros look like total noobs.
Why complain? Because not everyone is 100% unaffected by getting bashed regularly by better players, on a "ladder" of which the developers officially claim that it's able match you against people of your caliber. Sometimes some people want to face people of their caliber, they want this and there's nothing wrong with it.
The problem is the implication that its something special to the ladder or unique to their own experience, or unique to this time. D on ICC was always a cluster fuck. So was C. So was B. So was Fish. I've played people at my level and 8-0d them one day, they embarrassed me the next.
The mm isnt ideal but it will never be ideal because this is a fucking hard game with a small population pool and the skill sets vary so wildly that mere idiosyncratic matchups can result in wildly divergent consequences. Hell, I regularly ran into 200+ apm macro bots at low levels in bw, who could do nothing but a single build, macro well. Any deviation from standard by their opponent, any harass, any pressure, they collapse. You know how long it took me to realize the difference between a macro bot and a good player? Long enough for me to roll my eyes with indifference when I hear complete newbs say they're being crushed by smurfs.
If you cant handle losing a lopsided game frequently, you cant handle broodwar. Because thats what broodwar is even with evenly matched opponents.
The matchmaking isnt ideal because people can reset their entire MMR with a couple of clicks. This is whats killing proper matchmaking and "skill calculation". You can deny that as much as you want. This bullshit is just poisen for the game
Why complain? Because not everyone is 100% unaffected by getting bashed regularly by better players, on a "ladder" of which the developers officially claim that it's able match you against people of your caliber. Sometimes some people want to face people of their caliber, they want this and there's nothing wrong with it.
The problem is the implication that its something special to the ladder or unique to their own experience, or unique to this time. D on ICC was always a cluster fuck. So was C. So was B. So was Fish. I've played people at my level and 8-0d them one day, they embarrassed me the next.
The mm isnt ideal but it will never be ideal because this is a fucking hard game with a small population pool and the skill sets vary so wildly that mere idiosyncratic matchups can result in wildly divergent consequences. Hell, I regularly ran into 200+ apm macro bots at low levels in bw, who could do nothing but a single build, macro well. Any deviation from standard by their opponent, any harass, any pressure, they collapse. You know how long it took me to realize the difference between a macro bot and a good player? Long enough for me to roll my eyes with indifference when I hear complete newbs say they're being crushed by smurfs.
If you cant handle losing a lopsided game frequently, you cant handle broodwar. Because thats what broodwar is even with evenly matched opponents.
The matchmaking isnt ideal because people can reset their entire MMR with a couple of clicks. This is whats killing proper matchmaking and "skill calculation". You can deny that as much as you want. This bullshit is just poisen for the game
Happened on ICC, happened on fish. Same old same old. Smurfs raise faster now, it is simply undeniable that MM provides a more accurate and timely experience for the -vast- majority of players.
Why complain? Because not everyone is 100% unaffected by getting bashed regularly by better players, on a "ladder" of which the developers officially claim that it's able match you against people of your caliber. Sometimes some people want to face people of their caliber, they want this and there's nothing wrong with it.
The problem is the implication that its something special to the ladder or unique to their own experience, or unique to this time. D on ICC was always a cluster fuck. So was C. So was B. So was Fish. I've played people at my level and 8-0d them one day, they embarrassed me the next.
The mm isnt ideal but it will never be ideal because this is a fucking hard game with a small population pool and the skill sets vary so wildly that mere idiosyncratic matchups can result in wildly divergent consequences. Hell, I regularly ran into 200+ apm macro bots at low levels in bw, who could do nothing but a single build, macro well. Any deviation from standard by their opponent, any harass, any pressure, they collapse. You know how long it took me to realize the difference between a macro bot and a good player? Long enough for me to roll my eyes with indifference when I hear complete newbs say they're being crushed by smurfs.
If you cant handle losing a lopsided game frequently, you cant handle broodwar. Because thats what broodwar is even with evenly matched opponents.
I agree with this sentiment and think it answers the op and explains the frustration. Whenever I get frustrated with bw, which isn't often because i've learned there is no point, I remind myself that it's supposed to be reeeeally fucking hard and really hard to make noticeable improvements. Especially without coaching from some one who is better than you who can point out 'no-brainer' mistakes and bad habits we have all built from playing the game relatively incorrectly for years and years.
There will always be a huge swell of players of varying skill levels close to 1500 because a player of any skill level can have infinite accounts which invariably start at 1500. This applies to players, preeminently, who are way above and way below 1500 which drives players who "would be" farther away from 1500 closer to 1500 if they play on that account over a long period of time.
Ladder has gotten tough because it went from being global to practically being regional. Sadly players are having a tough time finding games at even 1.8k MMR which leads them to smurf for quicker Q's. On top of that the player base has shrunk since the release of SC:R because people got tired of playing on the same ladder for a year and our gaming experience hasn't gotten any better.
With this in mind, what steps should we take in order to increase player activity, especially in the foreign scene? For starters widening the MM parameters would help, let us Q up vs Europeans more frequently and vice versa (while trying to improve the netcode in order to have more playable games vs kors, if this doesn't happen then the 2v2 ladder system will ultimately fail).
Secondly, we have to make b.net a more fun and interactive place. Right now a lot of players just log in and Q up for games, which ends up creating a very isolating gaming experience. Sadly that's 1 downside of the matchmaking system. It reduces interaction between players, a lot of the fun banter/gossipy aspect of the game has been removed. On ICCup everyone was together in chat channels, people would talk with each other to find games (obviously because the ladder system was manual) and it created a more fun gaming environment. People were also able to meet/friend add and practice with other similarly skilled players.
Blizzard needs to focus on improving our ladder/bnet experience because that's the biggest hurdle the foreign scene has when it comes to attracting and keeping players around. So what does that entail specifically?
1) Improving the net-code and ultimately re-tweaking the MM so we can have more global games (Blizzard is constantly working on this)
2) Add a ranking system in order to incentivize practice so players can feel rewarded for improving (by adding leagues which is being done in 1.22). They can take this even further by creating ranking subgroups like ICCup/PGT had by adding - and + ranks, that way newer players won't feel like they're eternally stuck in the same rank and there's more sense of progress.
3) Improving on the social aspect of the game so we can draw more players and keep them around. Ultimately this is what will help make BW a self sustaining game, the foreign scene in particular needs help in this regard. I strongly believe that bnet is too big and isolating as is and Blizzard needs to help bring us together. This is achieved by creating default ladder chat channels and merging the foreign servers. They've said that they're gonna add a clan system down the line which will also help.
4) Adding a team ladder, obviously this is and has always been a big part of BW. This can't be achieved without improving the net-code first. I feel like there needs to be a bit more focus paid to the UMS and team game communities once all the MM/ladder issues are resolved.
And the best advice i can give you for improving (other than taking advantage of all the ressources available to you such as guides/CPL coaches etc.) is to not look at your rank/rating. This can help any non progamer level player tbh but it helps lower ranked players in particular because it reduces a lot of the stress/pressure that people put on themselves. You can keep yourself updated by checking your rating like once every week or two.
Also, don't evaluate yourself based on wins and losses, that's not a good reward system.. especially when you're new to the game. Evaluate yourself by setting goals and achieving them. Things such as: i won't get supply blocked more than 4 times this game, follow a build order and try to hit X amount of supply by X minute, there's plenty of in game goals you can aim for.
On July 14 2018 19:30 TT1 wrote: Ladder has gotten tough because it went from being global to practically being regional. Sadly players are having a tough time finding games at even 1.8k MMR which leads them to smurf for quicker Q's. On top of that the player base has shrunk since the release of SC:R because people got tired of playing on the same ladder for a year and our gaming experience hasn't gotten any better.
With this in mind, what steps should we take in order to increase player activity, especially in the foreign scene? For starters widening the MM parameters would help, let us Q up vs Europeans more frequently and vice versa (while trying to improve the netcode in order to have more playable games vs kors, if this doesn't happen then the 2v2 ladder system will ultimately fail).
Secondly, we have to make b.net a more fun and interactive place. Right now a lot of players just log in and Q up for games, which ends up creating a very isolating gaming experience. Sadly that's 1 downside of the matchmaking system. It reduces interaction between players, a lot of the fun banter/gossipy aspect of the game has been removed. On ICCup everyone was together in chat channels, people would talk with each other to find games (obviously because the ladder system was manual) and it created a more fun gaming environment. People were also able to meet/friend add and practice with other similarly skilled players.
Blizzard needs to focus on improving our ladder/bnet experience because that's the biggest hurdle the foreign scene has when it comes to attracting and keeping players around. So what does that entail specifically?
1) Improving the net-code and ultimately re-tweaking the MM so we can have more global games (Blizzard is constantly working on this)
2) Add a ranking system in order to incentivize practice so players can feel rewarded for improving (by adding leagues which is being done in 1.22). They can take this even further by creating ranking subgroups like ICCup/PGT had by adding - and + ranks, that way newer players won't feel like they're eternally stuck in the same rank and there's more sense of progress.
3) Improving on the social aspect of the game so we can draw more players and keep them around. Ultimately this is what will help make BW a self sustaining game, the foreign scene in particular needs help in this regard. I strongly believe that bnet is too big and isolating as is and Blizzard needs to help bring us together. This is achieved by creating default ladder chat channels and merging the foreign servers. They've said that they're gonna add a clan system down the line which will also help.
4) Adding a team ladder, obviously this is and has always been a big part of BW. This can't be achieved without improving the net-code first. I feel like there needs to be a bit more focus paid to the UMS and team game communities once all the MM/ladder issues are resolved.
First you have to get rid of bullshit like Mouse and Keyboard block. Its the biggest blockage. And the game has to be free to play since people dont like paying for games. But that would make things even more complicating. Net-Code is more than fine. Played from europe against someone from USA with TR of 12-16
Good suggestions by TT1. Also, why not just ban all the smurfs? Just leave only one account you can play under which is your Battle.net ID. After the ladder reset, I think that would make the most sense. As somebody said already if you want to practice new builds then go create a custom game named "zerg join" or whatever.
EPT
How to practice
