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Artosis
United States2134 Posts
The Difference between Koreans and Foreigners
or
How to get realllllllllllly good
I've learned a lot about the differences between the foreigner and
korean scenes in terms of game play / attitude / practice styles /
etc in the past 10 months. I write this with a general idea of where I want to go with it
but i'm not sure exactly how i will get there. hopefully my thoughts
won't come out too garbled. sorry in advance for the lack of commas. i
ripped that key out years ago t.t
Foreigners don't practice correctly. They just don't know how. There
is a way to practice to become a progamer. While StarCraft is a hugely
complex game it is being narrowed down strategically as people get
better and better. As I write this I am looking at the Strategy Forum
here on TL. Let's look at the way foreigners are trying to learn
StarCraft right now:
[Q] DT rush has been scouted?
I noticed there are no apm guide threads...
[Q] Multitasking
[Q] ZvP vs sair/reaver into standard ground army
[Q] Ultralisk Defiler Push--TvZ
Totally valid threads. When I started trying to get good I went right
to the Strategy & Tactics forum on battle.net. Back then StarCraft was
a game almost completely of strategy. Now these threads are much less
valuable in 2008. Yes they still will help you but your time would be
better spent doing what aspiring Koreans do. You just don't really
know what that is or how to approach it. Unfortunately there is very
little high level discussion in the foreigner scene. Our scene is the sum of many different countries and languages. Yes we can all talk to each other some but its definitely easier to convey complicated information in your first language.
Now when you play a bunch on ICCup and want to improve ranks it is quite important to know what to do when a DT rush has been scouted. But thats not how you become a progamer level player. Not at all. Low level progamers massively practice basic play against each other. There are basic paths on how a game goes. I will use TvZ to demonstrate this.
Here is how you play TvZ against 3 hatch muta (most common ZvT build):
9 Depot
11 Barracks
14 Depot
begin marine production (stop at 6 marines)
19 Command Center
23 Depot
25 Refinery
28 Academy (stim + bat then med when done)
32 Barracks
35 Engineering Bay (+1 attack research when done)
36 Barracks
From here it gets more loose. Get range immediately when stim is done. Get comstats before your factory. Get your factory before 60 supply. Build turrets immediately upon your factory starting. Go straight to vessel and get 3 tanks on the way.
That is an exact build order used by one of the best terrans in the world. Every pro terran knows this build and practices the hell out of it. Their training partner zergs in the mean time do the same 3 hatchery muta build over and over. By doing basically the same game OVER AND OVER AND OVER you will memorize it quite well and see the holes in your game. This basic play is the result of countless hours of progamers playing each other and finding the most robust and powerful builds and styles. YES you can bunker rush and SHOULD bunker rush from time to time. Yes BoxeR has probably never done nor will ever do anything like this. But overall this is how you should practice.
As you master this build order in TvZ you will have to learn how to adapt to various things different zergs do. That is the last thing you really need to learn. Because if you know this build inside out and can macro it control it know your timings and everything like that then you are just going to roll people over who do lesser builds.
When you know every in and out of this build then you can truely increase your speed. One of the biggest reasons why progamers are so much faster than foriegners is because they know just what they are going to do. The game is completely mapped out in their mind. So they follow that map as quickly as they can. When you are a player who relies on being clever you simply cannot do that. Sure your APM can go up through hotkey cycling or something like that but that won't really help you as much as what the progamer is doing. Yes you might out think a progamer but he's going to be following a very very solid plan all game very well. He's going to have just about as many units as is possible all the time. His choices in odd situations will almost always be less intelligent than a top foreigner player but he has the extra economy and units to be able to get away with that.
The point of this:
Mechanics are more important than any other aspect of the game currently. The game is getting more and more mapped out. You need to be able to follow that map.
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Norway27786 Posts
the sad thing that you are very much correct about this is prolly the main reason why i no longer play 
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Thanks dan,
I asked you to write something like this maybe 2 months ago. Interesting read, I'll practice that build order in my tvz 
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Artosis
United States2134 Posts
On September 14 2008 19:17 Liquid`Drone wrote:the sad thing that you are very much correct about this is prolly the main reason why i no longer play
yep the game used to be more fun for sure. its ok ill write why foreigners will be better than koreans at sc2 until the game stops being patched at some point.
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häh?
Its quite the opposite...u can only be pro if you make the best decisions...mechanics has everyone.
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On September 14 2008 19:28 Artosis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2008 19:17 Liquid`Drone wrote:the sad thing that you are very much correct about this is prolly the main reason why i no longer play yep the game used to be more fun for sure. its ok ill write why foreigners will be better than koreans at sc2 until the game stops being patched at some point.
I'm interested to see how this will turn out. Korea is a big country filled with a bunch of kids who all possess all sorts of playstyles and I'm sure some of them will be very talented at SC2. Of course, the same could be said of the foreigners, with a much bigger player base, but less practice time and the lack of a valid career path.
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On September 14 2008 19:32 thunk wrote:
I'm interested to see how this will turn out. Korea is a big country filled with a bunch of kids who all possess all sorts of playstyles and I'm sure some of them will be very talented at SC2. Of course, the same could be said of the foreigners, with a much bigger player base, but less practice time and the lack of a valid career path.
you talk as if pro starcraft is a valid career path?
come on dude....think
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I agree with op although for a terran player mechanics matters even more. At least zergs have zvp, the matchup that still varies a little every game and strategy pays off a bit more. But besides zvp every matchup is basically the same game over and over.
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Russian Federation386 Posts
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I have to disagree. Every player at high level (no matter foreigner or korean) have pretty good mechanics. Draco, Dreiven - they can keep they minerals down, have right unit combination and so on. But Bisu or Best basically do right decisions. If you look at the game of C+ player and B+ player - their mechanics are pretty equal. Ok maybe little difference but not that influencing game. And then B+ player totally rapes C+, wtf? B+ does right decisions, have better tactics. I am always against saying that SC is only making more units and controlling them better. If this would be right - I could be top player because I can force myself to macro at very good level, and generally play mechanics at top level. But this factor that makes MIStrZZZ 999999999999x better than me is that he have better tactics - he uses his units more effectively, attacking at right moment. He predict enemys situation better, he gets his advantage step by step to the point he can just rape me. Look at the sAviOr vs Dreiven from latest WWI and then watch Mondragon vs Dreiven at TSL. sAviOr did his lair when he had like 180 gas: that mean his mechanics are not so godlike. He was bothered controlling zerglings and forgot to make lair. Look at iloveoov and sAviOr - their APM is like 250! Ah and one more thing about game between Maestro and Dreiven: Zerg basically did PERFECT decision. Every action in StarCraft gives you advantages and disadvantages. For example: I do Nexus First build in PvT. Advantage is great economy. Disadvantages: I am vulnerable to rushes, lack of early aggresion from my side. And good player use disadvantage of enemy build (for example going 2 factories to break or does a lot quicker expand than normal [using lack of enemys aggresion]). This example is reaaaaally basic but shows whole problem. In high level game decision made by players are so advanced, they think a lot and winner is player who has better tactics.
Artosis I respect you as player and commentator (I like you analysis on game - actually only commentator who analyses tactics and decision making in game he commentate) but in this aspect I have to disagree. Sorry. 
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On September 14 2008 19:42 PobTheCad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2008 19:32 thunk wrote:
I'm interested to see how this will turn out. Korea is a big country filled with a bunch of kids who all possess all sorts of playstyles and I'm sure some of them will be very talented at SC2. Of course, the same could be said of the foreigners, with a much bigger player base, but less practice time and the lack of a valid career path. you talk as if pro starcraft is a valid career path? come on dude....think
It's about as valid as becoming a profession athlete in the United States. Being a Korean and trying to go Pro in Korean Starcraft. There are very few foreign kids who even got to play in the Korean big leagues.
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I agree with NergalSC actually.
If you watch games of pros their mechanics (especially macro) are not that much better, if at all better than top foreigners.
Constantly better decisions + better map awarness are what puts them ahead every game.
But I agree with artosis saying that koreans can play faster with equal apm due to knowing what to do in advance all the time.
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i think the point is that progamers are able to take a build and play it so many times so they are able to adapt optimally to any situation
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So I have decided to show examples:
Mondragon vs Dreiven
Dreiven have one moment when his macro is pretty sloppy, he loses few Zealots for nothing, do not manage to do any bigger harras early on. So why the hell he wins game? He know what Zerg can have. He knew that Mondragon invested a lot in mutas, then he was supposed to do lurkers and a lot of sunkens. His saturation of drones suffered from it. Dreiven remained on two bases for longer time. Slowly built his advantage. He knew when he have to camp and when he have to attack. Generally decision making of Dreiven was better = he won game. Mondragon is also smart player. When I looked at his few replays, he was not that far ahead in mechanics. Sometimes his macro was pretty sloppy but his tactics are stronger than most people on damned Earth - he wins.
sAviOr vs Dreiven
sAviOr know what Dreivens advantages and disadvantages are. First game - Andromeda. He knew that attack from front is not good idea. He need hydras to fight reavers but cannot use them to attack directly. Then he does great switch to mutalisks. Does a lot of harras everywhere, while getting drops. He load a lot of hydras to the oerlords and place them in Dreiven main. Polish player have to order some of his reavers to go back to main. Okaaay so at this point sAviOr attacks from the front. GG. So sAviOr showed better strategy thinking. I believe that if sAviOr would play against Best and he would do same build like Dreiven, Best could predict sAviOr options better and prepare for them while using his advantages. OK so lets proceed to the next game. Dreiven played his famous Zealot+Archon combo. sAviOr used maximum of his units - that was ridiculous: he sniped templars, he ran lings to Dreivens base in perfect moment so he have seen what is Dreiven up to. And then he just outplayed him. Not because he have milion APM and never miss overlord. He was basically smarter in this game.
Lets compare two players from foreigner community. First guy is IdrA. Second White-Ra. IdrA is macro player. He concentrates his game on mechanics mostly, his scouting is not so good, he can't predict enemy that well like for example NonY. And other guy - White-Ra. His macro is not so good. He have problems at keeping his money down in many games. His biggest advantage is his strategy. He is one of smartest players. I have to admit that White-Ra wins most games. I respect IdrA of course but White-Ra usually wins games vs IdrA. This is example that great mechanics < strong strategy.
I do not see big difference in mechanics between Draco and for example Kal. But Draco loses to JF in TSL final while Kal wins over JF pretty easily. High level games might look basic - by the book so this is illusion that they play using mechanics only. But this is ONLY illusion.
There is one point when I can agree with you, Artosis. I think that 80% of Terran skill is mechanics. Terran is race that is hard mechanically but simple strategically. But when playing Zerg or Protoss you need more in-game thinking than pure mechanics. Thanx for listening. :D
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Here is how you play TvZ against 3 hatch muta (most common ZvT build):
9 Depot
11 Barracks
14 Depot
begin marine production (stop at 6 marines)
19 Command Center
23 Depot
25 Refinery
28 Academy (stim + bat then med when done)
32 Barracks
35 Engineering Bay (+1 attack research when done)
36 Barracks
From here it gets more loose. Get range immediately when stim is done. Get comstats before your factory. Get your factory before 60 supply. Build turrets immediately upon your factory starting. Go straight to vessel and get 3 tanks on the way.
Man, you own!
Good Job
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Ah and I forgot to mention one thing. When I play on ICCup mechanically, using strategies that I do from my memory basically macroing a lot of troops and microing them nicely I play worser than in situation when I concentrate on strategy, tactics and thinking in the game. IMHO player need to have something like 200 APM to play at high level but as I said, you can meet players like that on C/C+ rank. You have decent mechanics but now you have to use your brain. :D
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Mechanics is relative, foreigners have good mechanics compared to other foreigners but not to Koreans, mechanics does not equal apm, it's simply multitasking.
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Yes I know but one of aspects of the multitasking/mechanics is APM. I do not want to say - C+ do not miss pylon, sometimes misses probe, have problem at defending harras and attack at once. I just wanted to say it shortly. In this case APM meant mechanics. :D
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I've been playing sc for 2 months and around 2-3 weeks now(switched from warcraft).I've been training very good thanks to my previous experience in how to train.So far I've achieve rank C in iccup and I've coupe kills of B/B+ players.The best way to practise is to get one pro replay and just study the shit out of him.I've memorized the reactions of other race players so I can figure out what he is teching if he doesn't allow me to scout him, when to attack ,when to place second,third,fourth factory etc.
My advise to you is this: If u want to be good at starcraft threat it like a poem that you need to learn.
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On September 14 2008 21:20 Morello wrote:
I've been playing sc for 2 months and around 2-3 weeks now(switched from warcraft).I've been training very good thanks to my previous experience in how to train.So far I've achieve rank C in iccup and I've coupe kills of B/B+ players.The best way to practise is to get one pro replay and just study the shit out of him.I've memorized the reactions of other race players so I can figure out what he is teching if he doesn't allow me to scout him, when to attack ,when to place second,third,fourth factory etc.
My advise to you is this: If u want to be good at starcraft threat it like a poem that you need to learn.
Yeah and I play 1 week and I will soon reach A!!1
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EPT
