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On September 14 2008 21:20 Morello wrote:
I've been playing sc for 2 months and around 2-3 weeks now(switched from warcraft).I've been training very good thanks to my previous experience in how to train.So far I've achieve rank C in iccup and I've coupe kills of B/B+ players.The best way to practise is to get one pro replay and just study the shit out of him.I've memorized the reactions of other race players so I can figure out what he is teching if he doesn't allow me to scout him, when to attack ,when to place second,third,fourth factory etc.
My advise to you is this: If u want to be good at starcraft threat it like a poem that you need to learn.
C rank in less than 3 months? 
Impressive!
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This is impossible to get such rank. He probably play for longer time - just wanted to get impressed. One really good player I know (I will not say nickname) said that I am getting skill at rapid rate but still I was not able to get C in 2 months. And this is even more impossible to beat someone on B+ rank after so short period of time playing. To get your hotkeys going like it should, know strategies and so you have to practise at least half year and then you can reach C. He says that you should just remember tactics and play them - this is approach of D+ player. No offense but this is impossible to get C in 2 months.
EDIT: haha now I suddenly realized that B+ is sometimes rank of top on-koreans LOLOL.
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Absolutely. Like I've always said, the answer to 99% of questions on the strategy forum - get faster, practice your build more and macro better. Also nice to finally see someone fully explain the APM question, as in, why the progamers are faster and why.
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On September 14 2008 21:50 NergalSC wrote:
He says that you should just remember tactics and play them - this is approach of D+ player.
actually its the approach of progamers. artosis was not talking out of his ass, like you are, hes speaking from experience of watching progamers practice and talking to their coaches. this is not something thats up for debate, it is reality.
you're right that savior beat dreiven because he plays more intelligently than him. however he also won because has better macro than him. and better micro than him. and better timing than him. comparing players of that difference in caliber is pointless, its just a whole different level. what artosis is talking about is how everything, strategically, is becoming very standardized among progaming and the defining factor among progamers is now execution. hes extending this to foreigners, pointing out that the best way to beat everyone else is to pick solid, basic builds and practice the shit out of them. hes trying to help you. stop spouting bullshit and listen.
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LOL I just said my opinion nothing bad I think?
Yeah I agree that basic build trained a lot get best result. I agree with many things there but not with this that SC is only mechanics. Even if you play by the book build, still tactic is big factor.
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On September 14 2008 21:50 NergalSC wrote:
This is impossible to get such rank. He probably play for longer time - just wanted to get impressed. One really good player I know (I will not say nickname) said that I am getting skill at rapid rate but still I was not able to get C in 2 months. And this is even more impossible to beat someone on B+ rank after so short period of time playing. To get your hotkeys going like it should, know strategies and so you have to practise at least half year and then you can reach C. He says that you should just remember tactics and play them - this is approach of D+ player. No offense but this is impossible to get C in 2 months.
EDIT: haha now I suddenly realized that B+ is sometimes rank of top on-koreans LOLOL.
I guess your "good player" friend is the authority. Whatever he says must be true. End of discussion.
The reason I agree with Artosis and not with you Nergal, is that korean's react instinctively on everything they see DUE to having done what Artosis just described 10 hours a day for years and years.
They instinctively know how to react to about every single variation, because they've studied it -- much like top chess players study openings and their variations.
It's not that they necessarily are more creative. But rather korean's have to think less about the "trivialities" of tech switches, base management, timings; and are able to leave more time to effectively make use of their multitasking with superior harass, map control and economy as a result.
What the OP argues essentially IMO is that korean's gain more on instinctively knowing how to act in every situation than does a foreigner from truly being creative and original in a match. The korean's quick reactions to every bit of information levels out any effect that a truly creative play might have had.
The OP isn't necessarily saying korean's are worse at strategy Nergal, but rather that them being better at what we perceive as "strategy" is infact a result of the strict practice regime of a standard strategy and its thousands of different variations. Essentially turning what is "strategy" for foreigners into "mechanics" for koreans.
I can really relate to Artosis' post. I returned to broodwar after a two (or more) year break last fall, and I quickly rushed from C- to B within half a year from persistently using the same standard macro openings against any race and any opponent I would face.
There is no point in practising all-ins if you truly intend on improving in Starcraft. All-ins are better utilised when you truly have got a grasp of the game itself. Not when you're trying to gain a rank from C to C+.
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who the hell would not play better if he practices 5-8 hrs per day... plus practices with their fellow progamer teammates... plus the fame in their country, the money prizes, endorsements and televised games...
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Hmmm... I agree with most things you said. But still I think that biggest part of SC is strategy. I just do not know what to say. Now I realized that we speak about one thing in two ways. XD IMO strategy cannot exist without mechanics and vice versa. I do not like when someone says that foreigner reactions are better and more clever but they have better mechanics. T.T This is pretty ridiculous for me. You know when you have good strategy to attack in good moment, you can name it strategy but you can name it timing (mechanics...).
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On September 14 2008 22:47 NergalSC wrote:
LOL I just said my opinion nothing bad I think?
Yeah I agree that basic build trained a lot get best result. I agree with many things there but not with this that SC is only mechanics. Even if you play by the book build, still tactic is big factor.
"One of the biggest reasons why progamers are so much faster than foriegners is because they know just what they are going to do. The game is completely mapped out in their mind. So they follow that map as quickly as they can. "
tactics are a result of billions of hours of practice. you play the same general game plan over and over, so you experience all of the likely scenarios and the best responses become engrained in your brain, so you execute them without thought
a foreigner sits there thinking 'what can i do to fuck him up' while he banks 4k minerals with 150 supply and runs his army into mines. a korean does what hes done a thousand times before in practice while keeping his money below 500 and constantly watching his army.
now maybe the foreigner makes a better decision for a specific scenario, because he evaluates whats going on and decides what to do based on that. but he still loses because he has a quarter of the army of the korean who acted on similar situations thats hes played over and over.
also, you agree? you just said that that was the thinking of a D+ player
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On September 14 2008 22:54 Stimpacked wrote:
who the hell would not play better if he practices 5-8 hrs per day... plus practices with their fellow progamer teammates... plus the fame in their country, the money prizes, endorsements and televised games...
What you're saying is obvious, but not related at all to what we're discussing here.
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Calgary26004 Posts
Why are people so resistant to this? It's common sense.
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It definitely makes sense, but it's kind of depressing. Hopefully SC2 will be balanced in such a way that it will take a lot longer to find an "optimum" build order for each matchup due to more options.
Anyway, good article Artosis.
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On September 14 2008 23:09 kemoryan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2008 22:54 Stimpacked wrote:
who the hell would not play better if he practices 5-8 hrs per day... plus practices with their fellow progamer teammates... plus the fame in their country, the money prizes, endorsements and televised games... What you're saying is obvious, but not related at all to what we're discussing here.
the topic is the difference between us and koreans(progamers) and that's the main reason...
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Does this mean that playing comp stomps is time well spent?
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Um I don't understand. You're saying the difference is that Koreans play the same build order over and over? That's what I do, usually, and I still suck. I can't imagine that any good player is just improvising a new build order every game, most have just one that they prefer.
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United States24806 Posts
On September 14 2008 22:34 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2008 21:50 NergalSC wrote:
He says that you should just remember tactics and play them - this is approach of D+ player. actually its the approach of progamers. artosis was not talking out of his ass, like you are, hes speaking from experience of watching progamers practice and talking to their coaches. this is not something thats up for debate, it is reality.
The reason why I agree with you and Artosis other than that you both know more than anyone else in this thread, is that they pointed out in that episode of National Geographic how the progamer was using the 'memory' parts of his brain, whereas the amateur was using the 'creative' part (iirc).
I also experienced this firsthand playing Sea[shield]. It's a stretch (especially since he offraced) but he didn't beat me with smart choices or anything like that, he just perfectly played by a script, and then later in the game his experience and awesome micro took over. And this was with him more or less screwing around... I can't imagine if he was 100% serious, or playing his main.
I think the principle Artosis talked about is an effect that tapers off towards the lategame.. and that's when the countless hours of extra experience kick in, and continue to give the top Korean player an advantage.
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On September 14 2008 23:33 Tadzio00 wrote:
Does this mean that playing comp stomps is time well spent?
yes, mass practicing comp stomps will make you better at comp stomps
just like mass practicing 1v1 would make you better than 1v1
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On September 14 2008 23:45 Luddite wrote:
Um I don't understand. You're saying the difference is that Koreans play the same build order over and over? That's what I do, usually, and I still suck. I can't imagine that any good player is just improvising a new build order every game, most have just one that they prefer.
Do you get to play 8-10 hours a day with progamers who help you point out things in person? Buddy you think playing like 15 games is alot for you, im sure thats minimal in a progamer house. These guys have access to all 3 match ups and as many games as they want vs TOP PLAYERS. Don't compare your training regiment with a pros lol.
I wonder if foreigners got to have a facility to live and train together if they would get as good as the pros under the same training standards. Obviously there isnt any money in it, but it would be interesting 
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On September 14 2008 22:47 NergalSC wrote:
LOL I just said my opinion nothing bad I think?
Yeah I agree that basic build trained a lot get best result. I agree with many things there but not with this that SC is only mechanics. Even if you play by the book build, still tactic is big factor.
I read the whole thing and never saw artosis say "SC is only mechanics, decision making, timing, etc dont matter"
He's saying mechanics are the MOST important part of the game not the ONLY important part of the game. And it's quite clear if you look at the progression of SC over the years. Go look at a game from 2004 and a game from 2008.
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EPT
