EPTThe Difference between Koreans and Foreigners - Page 16
| Forum Index > Brood War Strategy |
|
stk01001
United States786 Posts
| ||
|
Rice
United States1332 Posts
| ||
Chill
Calgary25990 Posts
On March 06 2009 22:40 polarwolf wrote: this example with music is really really bad and ignorant in my opinion. If you take this serious then of course americans would be the best SC games obvioulsy BroodWar is an American game. hmm i dont follow your logic. | ||
|
Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
 | ||
|
Biff The Understudy
France7925 Posts
On March 07 2009 01:15 Rice wrote: it turned into a musical flame thread or something We pretty much discussed everything except strategy here: chess, music, culture and civilizations. Don't ask me how and why. Artosis is talented, have to admit. | ||
|
gameguard
Korea (South)2132 Posts
| ||
Legionnaire
Australia4514 Posts
On September 14 2008 19:14 Artosis wrote: [One of the biggest reasons why progamers are so much faster than foriegners is because they know just what they are going to do. The game is completely mapped out in their mind. | ||
|
Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
Like, that moonshine vs sarens rep, sure the guys are great mechanically so it eventually turned into a good game,. but the BOs just sucked. The zerg took his gas late, made his mutas late and didnt even produce 9 at a single time. The terran of course overcompensated and made his first tank at something ridiculous like 10 minutes into the game. Now about the argument of mechanics > creativity, well.. this isnt a real yes or no question, i mean, theres a limit to how dumb your opponent can be, and that someone is playing smart doesnt mean they were born with some god given gift of starcraft, it always takes practice, but some people seem to think practice only hones mechanics, while being 'naturally talented' whatever the hell that means, is actually better. /rant | ||
|
GreenTea321
United States3 Posts
I will train by practicing all of the abilities that are required of my strategies. Controlling units. using hotkeys, setting hotkeys, managing multiple screens. If I have mastery over myself, i can do anything I chose with speed and accuracy.Tap tap click tap tap click click tap click tap click. That is my keyboard and mouse in one second. Well, not now of course because I suck. I win gg. Wait there's more! I have to play against another person. I am god like at controlling my army but I don't know what to do. If my mechanics are much better than my opponent, I can just react to what he does and counter him. If they match my mechanics, I have to out think them or out guess them. That means I need to know what he knows. If he's missing strategy I can use mechanics while pressuring him with something he doesn't know which I know better. If I can't find that weakness, I move on to using my knowledge about what he likes best, 2nd best 3rd best and so on. He has mechanics linked to his mind and if i can understand his mechanics I can counter him exactly by predicting his next move. The higher in number and more firmly rooted mixups the harder it is to predict. But if I need to predict my opponent to win, it probably means I need to improve my mechanics as strategy turns into mechanics if practiced enough. . It all comes down to improving your mechanics and gaining advantage faster while balancing it. I will be spending my time doing just that. Hopefully I can beat my Korean friend in time. | ||
|
ilistis
United States828 Posts
Tell me how it goes though. Although I don't see you winning if your friend is C level and up. | ||
|
NeVeR
1352 Posts
A lot of foreigners would look at such a game and say, "Well, Flash defended the attack because his execution/micro was just so good!" But why were his execution and micro so good? Was it not because he was making very calculated strategical decisions? My point is, there is still a lot of strategy to be found in StarCraft at a high level of play; many of us noobie foreigners simply lack the understanding to acknowledge much of it. We look at something brilliant and call it simply good mechanics, when in fact those "good mechanics" are largely a result of subtle strategical decision making. | ||
|
anotak
United States1537 Posts
On March 08 2009 11:25 GreenTea321 wrote: This is a great topic which reassures me about my plans. I am a gamer who plays a lot and consider myself a top player in Street Fighter. Foreign students land in my house in New York and they play Starcraft. Koreans of course. They are better than me but I made a bet that I could beat them in Starcraft in 4 months. "Beat me in starcraft? No way. I am average in Korea but I've played for years", says my Korean friend. Since I have no life at the moment, I can devote my time to playing Starcraft. i'm curious, define "top player" at street fighter. and for that matter, WHICH street fighter. 2? 3? 4? I think you'll find that getting good at Starcraft will be harder than you expect. | ||
|
GreenTea321
United States3 Posts
| ||
|
Biff The Understudy
France7925 Posts
On March 08 2009 12:23 NeVeR wrote: What is "execution"? Can it not be thought of as a series of strategical decisions? I think the mistake many people here are making is that they define strategy as simply a set of builds and counter-builds. But actually strategy is much more than just that. I would advise everyone to watch this short video clip that FConnectionUK has subtitled: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6R7maYAAKk A lot of foreigners would look at such a game and say, "Well, Flash defended the attack because his execution/micro was just so good!" But why were his execution and micro so good? Was it not because he was making very calculated strategical decisions? My point is, there is still a lot of strategy to be found in StarCraft at a high level of play; many of us noobie foreigners simply lack the understanding to acknowledge much of it. We look at something brilliant and call it simply good mechanics, when in fact those "good mechanics" are largely a result of subtle strategical decision making. Amen. | ||
|
0xDEADBEEF
Germany1235 Posts
On March 08 2009 12:23 NeVeR wrote: What is "execution"? Can it not be thought of as a series of strategical decisions? I think the mistake many people here are making is that they define strategy as simply a set of builds and counter-builds. But actually strategy is much more than just that. I would advise everyone to watch this short video clip that FConnectionUK has subtitled: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6R7maYAAKk A lot of foreigners would look at such a game and say, "Well, Flash defended the attack because his execution/micro was just so good!" But why were his execution and micro so good? Was it not because he was making very calculated strategical decisions? My point is, there is still a lot of strategy to be found in StarCraft at a high level of play; many of us noobie foreigners simply lack the understanding to acknowledge much of it. We look at something brilliant and call it simply good mechanics, when in fact those "good mechanics" are largely a result of subtle strategical decision making. While it's true that the S-class progamers know about such small details and react well in such situations (have the right amount of units where they need to be), you're overrating it a bit, and also the analysis from the guy could be slightly wrong (or at least: there are other equally plausible explanations). You are overrating this because: It was just one dropship with 4 vults, and although this cost Flash mining time, he doesn't need to bring all his units just to stop 4 vults. Furthermore, he only had to send 1 tank because 2 new tanks rolled out of his factories the moment his one tank arrived at the scene, so in the end he had 3 tanks up there anyway, and his natural was also secure because he didn't send all of his initial tanks up there. The coach didn't take the 2 new tanks into account at all, and I can almost guarantee you that Flash knew that the 2 tanks he ordered were almost finished (at this rather early stage in the game, all progamers have enough free APM to spam select their factories and monitor the status every few seconds). And the second point is: if you see 1 dropship dropping 4 vults you know this is not a full-scale attack (in a TvT), but merely a harassment, and to defend against a harass you do not send your whole army which would leave you open for a real attack on a different position (in this case: the front) - this is very common sense and has nothing to do with genius or something. Every S class gamer knows what to take care of in the early to mid game. And the timing of Flash's supply depot which allowed him to "scout" the dropship early was just a fluke - in fact he should have built a depot there *earlier* already to have extended vision for the whole game. Because if you don't know that a dropship is coming right now and you send an SCV to the corner of your base and just then you scout the dropship unloading its is pure luck (although a certain amount of timing skill/knowledge also plays a role, e.g. if you anticipate the build your opponent is doing and you think to yourself "with the build he's doing, he MIGHT send a dropship at approximately THIS time, so I'll better check... oh wow there is one!" - but this depends on a large amount of luck too (e.g.: what if the opponent delays his drop shortly just to make Flash think he's not going to drop?) - so in the end it pays off to build the depot as early as possible to have advantage of the extended vision, instead of trying to send an SCV *right* when you think the opponent might drop now. So you see, there are always lots of different aspects and angles to be taken into account, and you (and the coach) only focus on one which (coincidentally *g*) happens to let his own Flash (and the game of Starcraft as a whole) stand in a better light. I don't see this action as being overly genius, it's something all S class progamers can pull off and do in several games. And I'd give Flash less credit for building that depot up there too late (although it happened to be JUST in time, this sort of timing is nothing you should rely upon, as explained above. And maybe it was no "timing skill" at all - maybe he was just building it there because he needed another depot without thinking at all that the opponent could drop right now. In the end we don't know for 100% sure what Flash thought to himself during that game). | ||
|
KlaCkoN
Sweden1661 Posts
On March 08 2009 23:03 0xDEADBEEF wrote: While it's true that the S-class progamers know about such small details and react well in such situations (have the right amount of units where they need to be), you're overrating it a bit, and also the analysis from the guy could be slightly wrong (or at least: there are other equally plausible explanations). You are overrating this because: It was just one dropship with 4 vults, and although this cost Flash mining time, he doesn't need to bring all his units just to stop 4 vults. Furthermore, he only had to send 1 tank because 2 new tanks rolled out of his factories the moment his one tank arrived at the scene, so in the end he had 3 tanks up there anyway, and his natural was also secure because he didn't send all of his initial tanks up there. The coach didn't take the 2 new tanks into account at all, and I can almost guarantee you that Flash knew that the 2 tanks he ordered were almost finished (at this rather early stage in the game, all progamers have enough free APM to spam select their factories and monitor the status every few seconds). And the second point is: if you see 1 dropship dropping 4 vults you know this is not a full-scale attack (in a TvT), but merely a harassment, and to defend against a harass you do not send your whole army which would leave you open for a real attack on a different position (in this case: the front) - this is very common sense and has nothing to do with genius or something. Every S class gamer knows what to take care of in the early to mid game. And the timing of Flash's supply depot which allowed him to "scout" the dropship early was just a fluke - in fact he should have built a depot there *earlier* already to have extended vision for the whole game. Because if you don't know that a dropship is coming right now and you send an SCV to the corner of your base and just then you scout the dropship unloading its is pure luck (although a certain amount of timing skill/knowledge also plays a role, e.g. if you anticipate the build your opponent is doing and you think to yourself "with the build he's doing, he MIGHT send a dropship at approximately THIS time, so I'll better check... oh wow there is one!" - but this depends on a large amount of luck too (e.g.: what if the opponent delays his drop shortly just to make Flash think he's not going to drop?) - so in the end it pays off to build the depot as early as possible to have advantage of the extended vision, instead of trying to send an SCV *right* when you think the opponent might drop now. So you see, there are always lots of different aspects and angles to be taken into account, and you (and the coach) only focus on one which (coincidentally *g*) happens to let his own Flash (and the game of Starcraft as a whole) stand in a better light. I don't see this action as being overly genius, it's something all S class progamers can pull off and do in several games. And I'd give Flash less credit for building that depot up there too late (although it happened to be JUST in time, this sort of timing is nothing you should rely upon, as explained above. And maybe it was no "timing skill" at all - maybe he was just building it there because he needed another depot without thinking at all that the opponent could drop right now. In the end we don't know for 100% sure what Flash thought to himself during that game). Didn't you post in this thread when it was first made and took it as an example that brood war was strategically solved and didn't develop anymore? =p Kind of funny because the game now plays very differently to how it was played when artosis made this topic. Your post about flash is also a bit strange. Mind clearly stated that he didn't lose _one_ game in practice performing that build, so apparantly you are wrong about it beeing an "obvious" choice to leave two tanks behind. And Flash does the kind of "lucky" scouting seen here quite often with mnm versus incoming muta, svcs versus drops etc. If it was nothing but flukes he would be the luckiest man alive imo. | ||
|
0xDEADBEEF
Germany1235 Posts
On March 08 2009 23:32 KlaCkoN wrote: Your post about flash is also a bit strange. Mind clearly stated that he didn't lose _one_ game in practice performing that build, so apparantly you are wrong about it beeing an "obvious" choice to leave two tanks behind. And Flash does the kind of "lucky" scouting seen here quite often with mnm versus incoming muta, svcs versus drops etc. If it was nothing but flukes he would be the luckiest man alive imo. These are no reasons/arguments. | ||
|
rei
United States3594 Posts
On March 07 2009 11:05 Legionnaire wrote: I'm going offtopic, by going back on topic. Zomg what did the legendary Legionnaire said? it's been editted!!~~!~!~!~ | ||
|
GreenTea321
United States3 Posts
I think it's best to define your meaning before trying to prove your word which you only feel but cannot explain. Their feeling with a word mismatches what I feel with a word and since I don't understand what they feel I apply my view and then we are all confused. The best way to practice in my opinion is to learn the most important deciding factors in a game(Starcraft: keep minerals low, control keyboard+mouse well, understand the opponent) First figure out one of the main fundamentals you lack in,such as mouse speed, and practice using mouse speed in many different ways until you can do it with your eyes closed or to where you are happy and don't need to think as much. As you master the different fundamentals, you start to combine them and create higher layers and levels of fundamentals such as hot keying anything on the screen. You combine mouse and keyboard fundamentals. The best can control their units to fight with effective micro while looking at their minimap for drops while understanding their opponent better than they understand themselves. And this is as instantaneous as you know the answer to 2+2 is. Ill also mention that I think having a high spirit while playing will help you learn quicker or help you do any activity since it activates the brain to act faster thus you can focus much more than if you are yawning while practicing. We don't remember boring things We remember intense and vibrant things. People might claim it makes you act stupid but I say it makes you act stupid quicker. | ||
|
niteReloaded
Croatia5282 Posts
If yes get him to play ICC and see how he does. If he's back to korea..... do the same thing I guess. It is absolutely VITAL to know his ICC rank, I cannot stress this enough. + Show Spoiler + I'm using exaggeration humor here, but yeah, do make him play ICC | ||
| ||
