I know it's probably just another "MMR is broken" post. Let's hope things will improve with rankings, but here's a couple of words from a completely new player.
As an example in Warcraft 3 you have a decent level system. First you go up to like level 25-30 then stay there for a while until you learn how to play properly then eventually go up to levels 35-40 which meant you're pretty good.
In SC2 there's was decent ranking system as well. You play constantly and you see how you go up the ladder, eventually you get transferred from bronze to silver then to gold then to plat etc.
Overall you play and you see the results. Like before I was lvl 20 in WC3 or in bronze SC2 and now after a year I'm in plat or diamond, or have 40 lvl battle.net. That boosts your confidence and you see that you are actually making some progress, you improve.
I feel like SC:R battle.net does not have this at all. I started playing a year ago (never played BW before). I play almost every day and my MMR stays the same all the time. When I just started it was around 1100-1500 going up and down like crazy. Having over 1000 games played it's still the same. MMR goes around the same range, never goes higher than 1500. Most of the time around 1250-1400 range. I face the same opponents. I win the same people and lose to the same guys. It's like there's a wall you hit every time you go closer to 1500. Something happens around this MMR (maybe smurfs of pros) and you drop down with like 15-20 loses in a row sometimes.
I feel that (subjectively) no matter how long you play you just stay exactly where you were all the time. I don't see any results or any progress. It's hard to say even by past replays whether I played worse or not. I wonder if it's possible to improve eventually over the years without devoting to the game 8-10 hrs a day like Koreans do. It's very frustrating..
Nah it just takes time, way more time than you think to level up. Learning has diminishing returns, it is not as easy to go from 1000 to 1500 as it is to go from 1500 to 1800. And going from 2000 to 2500 is extremely hard, I know talented players who can't do it.
I assure you there are no pros below 2000 mmr, in fact 1600-1800 players are generally mediocre, and in the KSL stream the pros played 2200 mmr players and completely destroyed them as well, like the games were hilariously one-sided.
Keep practising, be more systemathic about your learning, write down what you want to focus on next, which BOs, and so on.
Here are some mistakes I still make as a 1900 player that leave a lot to improve, for example: - I don't know some BOs very well - Some kinds of rushes still work against some of my BOs, they are not fine tuned - I get supply blocked when approaching 200/200 sometimes - My handling of large armies is sub-par - My APM goes way down in late game
By my experience when I hit such a wall, I try to dedicate more time to watching replays, analyzing games of mine and pros. Try to differentiate what is useful, what is not, and what is cool and based on that improve my game.
And I'd like to underline watching replays, not VODs. VODs and streams are for fun. By watching FPVods you can gain a lot but first, you need to have very good know-how how to handle starcraft. The knowledge you gain from streams is very limited as the casters aren't so good as they used to be 10 years ago. Nowadays they just follow the game and often do mistakes in their commentary because of the lack of strategic knowledge that you can gain only through many replays and keeping on with the trends - it's just impossible for them with the pace nowadays.
I know many many people who continue playing the game and don't improve their ranking and gamestyle just because they continue to do the same mistakes over and over again or try to handle the situations in the same manner... which doesn't work so well.
Making progress in BW is just super hard. Everyone feels that, ppl who dont play 8h/day stays at same rank for years sometimes, im pretty sure most of ppl know this how to be C-/C and dreaming for years about being B rank et cetera. However, the lower the rating, the easier it is to go further. Also Im not sure 1000 is games enought to jump over the D-/D, with i think is todays 1500-1600mmr, there are ppl who plays 10 years and sitting at this lvl.
I think, unfortunatelly, your experience is rather normal for everyone who picks up this game today and doesn't, as you wrote, makes it a half-time-job to play/learn/study BW.
The hardcore-nature of the game, the size and composition of the community, and the ladder-system lead to all the things you mentioned: facing a lot of better-than-you-players who're smurfing (but probably not as many as you think); remaining around the same level for a long time; playing the same people again and again.
- This game is insanely hard, and not only that, people have been practicing - more or less dedicated - for years, many for over a decade... The game is figured out in so many ways you wouldn't even know about even after playing it for months, so you're really only inching forward if you don't play several hours per day. So once you get over a very basic threshold (in your case quickly, because you're an RTS-veteran), it can take months to make a perceivable step forward. - It's even harder to see your progress because of the small player pool. There are just not so many people slightly ahead of you which you could out-class like there are in more lively communities like WC3 or SC2. Whenever I log on (Eu-server), it's almost like when ICCup (the private-server everyone used before SC:R) was still around: 300-400 people online, 30-60 games being played. Yes, sadly only a few hundred/thousand people still play this game regularly outside Korea. - That also means that on your range of the ladder you meet the same guys again and again, especially if you play around the same hours of the day everyday. - As for smurfing: Nothing keeps experienced players from making new accounts and slaying "noobs". Additionally, the higher you get on ladder, the harder it is to find games, so not even all of them are intentional noob-bashers, but just people who want to play ladder...
Thus, I don't think it's the MMR that is broken. It just takes hell of a commitment to get significantly better, in relation to the people who actually play this game.
On the bright side: I don't know any game in which it is so fullfilling to realize that you actually got better. Or to realize, if you come back after a pause, that the stuff you practiced is still there after a few rounds, the muscle memory and BO knowledge. Imo the game "opens up" in a new way after you'e played for a long time, taken a longer break maybe. Once all the basic stuff has sunk in, your mechanics are sufficiently developed, you kind of get more humble and don't first of all play for rank/improvement. You find joy in just trying out that one thing you saw on a stream, and thus bit by bit you grow as a player.
I am a Terran player My win rate: vs Zerg ~ 30%. Zerg can beat me by all the way. 4 pool, 9 pool, 12 pool. By all the units of the Zerg. I always don't know how do Zerg take strategies and units to combat to me. vs Terran ~ 53%. I thankful many other Terrans who let me free win. vs Protoss ~ 55%. I like vs Protoss. Win or lost I even like. I feel like this matchup is very balance for Terran and Protoss.
Nice how, in the course of an hour, everyone who has lived through what you did has gathered here and told you "yeah, sounds about right". xD
I'd also like to give some "advice":
Don't care for rank/points in this game.
If you practice, you will improve, no doubt about that.
Try to practice efficiently, that means: when you're in the mood to learn, and go one step at a time. Watch your replays, find mistakes, start with the very basics that you spot easily, and value structural (macro) mistakes, that show up again and again, over singular situations that cost you one game. Don't try to fix everything at once. E.g. if you notice you're having problems spending all your money in Matchup X around minute Y, work on that and only that for now. If you fix that one thing, you've become a better player.
It took me some serious improvement to get out of 1500 with zerg. I'm playing at ~1650 right now and am mostly carrying myself with mechanics and playing at around 230-250 apm. I think you can probably make it out with more refined play than mine as opposed to being kinda fast, but either way its difficult.
Yeah but you are not getting to 2000 with < 200 apm
I think 1500 may be a barrier as that is where all the accounts start. So when you get there it's a high likelihood that you'll face new accounts of any player, incl. those with much higher MMR.
So when you play vs players below 1500.. you actually play vs players with that skill. When you hit 1500~ there are MOST accounts of any level players, especially that some of them only play few games on that account without laddering it to higher level. And when you get above that level you will start playing with players that are in that range.
So:
<1500 any player with MMR below 1500 =1500 could be any player, and assuming there aren't that many players laddering, a big chance to hit someone who just created a new account > 1500 high probability to hit someone with that specific MMR
On July 12 2018 22:23 RAPiDCasting wrote: What's your APM?
The question should be: What is your opponents APM
My APM is around 160-220. My opponent's APM is roughly 120-250, sometimes 300-350, but I never win those matches. When I just started my APM was 120. Now it's higher. That's the only thing I can count as a progress..
On July 12 2018 22:23 RAPiDCasting wrote: What's your APM?
The question should be: What is your opponents APM
My APM is around 160-220. My opponent's APM is roughly 120-250, sometimes 300-350, but I never win those matches. When I just started my APM was 120. Now it's higher. That's the only thing I can count as a progress..
"Only thing I can count as a progress".
Did you ever have a good player watch/analyse your replays? What would you consider a progress? Seems like a fixiation on the rank/points or win/loss-ratio, and as this thread should have shown you, that's not a good indicator in this particular community (for now).
It's impossible to learn this game without reading quality guides or having exchange with better players than yourself and then watching your replays, fixing mistake after mistake. This way there should always be something to point out that has improved.
Well, only from Poland becouse I do not actively follow anymore scene. WolF = ~200APM terran - 2400MMR, mca64 also terran was C/C+ (1800-2000) with 120-150apm. I might be wrong but as i remember iopq is also very low apm (~150) with 2000MMR, but he is zerg. I know some guy from Sweden who was like 150apm B rank terran, lel. Your imagination about APM is just wrong bro, focus on understanding game, speed will come with that.
On July 12 2018 23:14 kogeT wrote: I think 1500 may be a barrier as that is where all the accounts start. So when you get there it's a high likelihood that you'll face new accounts of any player, incl. those with much higher MMR.
So when you play vs players below 1500.. you actually play vs players with that skill. When you hit 1500~ there are MOST accounts of any level players, especially that some of them only play few games on that account without laddering it to higher level. And when you get above that level you will start playing with players that are in that range.
So:
<1500 any player with MMR below 1500 =1500 could be any player, and assuming there aren't that many players laddering, a big chance to hit someone who just created a new account > 1500 high probability to hit someone with that specific MMR
This is an interesting post, but to put it a little bluntly perhaps, the level of opposition in the average ~ 1500 skill game really isn't that formidable.
This isn't to say that a 200-200 1500 mmr player cannot be an impossible opponent to beat for a new player, but rather that for a player around that level, identifying and working on improving the most critical factors of his game and climbing past the "ladder wall" you are describing should be quite achievable!
I'm not so familiar with what resources are available for new players like yourself, but lots of people will be willing to help you out I am sure. Maybe post a thread with a few replays in the strategy section?
What do you consider to be the strengths and weaknesses of your game? If you know what your weaknesses are, great! Go work on them. If you don't have any idea, improving will probably be much harder.
Wow reading through the posts game me so much insight. I guess in BW it's by far harder to improve than in any other RTS, so I can't compare it to SC2/WC3. Also didn't know that people could play this game for 10 years and still be at my level (which is a bit less than 1 year).
Answering questions of Highgamer. I do watch replays, Korean streams, watch my own games, ask people questions, take part in some foreign tournaments and clan leagues. I have a proper fat paper notebook dedicated to BroodWar and take all the notes there. It's already like 50 pages long with general tips, build orders, drawings of good positions to flank and stuff like that. Occasionally I re-read those things. I've read many articles, read Boxer's memoirs. I do my homework if you see what I mean. The point was is regardless of doing all those things I feel like I'm not getting anywhere. Me half a year ago and me now play roughly the same despite all those things. It's hard to notice that you're getting better.
As for the long breaks that someone suggested. I took almost a week without BW and it's like I'm starting the game all over again (in a bad sense). It gets much harder to play without practicing daily. Controlling workers, supply blocks, hitting the build timings, everything goes wrong. I highly doubt taking long breaks would help to improve.
On July 12 2018 21:55 QuadroX wrote: I know it's probably just another "MMR is broken" post. Let's hope things will improve with rankings, but here's a couple of words from a completely new player.
As an example in Warcraft 3 you have a decent level system. First you go up to like level 25-30 then stay there for a while until you learn how to play properly then eventually go up to levels 35-40 which meant you're pretty good.
In SC2 there's was decent ranking system as well. You play constantly and you see how you go up the ladder, eventually you get transferred from bronze to silver then to gold then to plat etc.
Overall you play and you see the results. Like before I was lvl 20 in WC3 or in bronze SC2 and now after a year I'm in plat or diamond, or have 40 lvl battle.net. That boosts your confidence and you see that you are actually making some progress, you improve.
I feel like SC:R battle.net does not have this at all. I started playing a year ago (never played BW before). I play almost every day and my MMR stays the same all the time. When I just started it was around 1100-1500 going up and down like crazy. Having over 1000 games played it's still the same. MMR goes around the same range, never goes higher than 1500. Most of the time around 1250-1400 range. I face the same opponents. I win the same people and lose to the same guys. It's like there's a wall you hit every time you go closer to 1500. Something happens around this MMR (maybe smurfs of pros) and you drop down with like 15-20 loses in a row sometimes.
I feel that (subjectively) no matter how long you play you just stay exactly where you were all the time. I don't see any results or any progress. It's hard to say even by past replays whether I played worse or not. I wonder if it's possible to improve eventually over the years without devoting to the game 8-10 hrs a day like Koreans do. It's very frustrating..
Hey when I used to play I was stuck in the same situation. I was playing for years as a casual gamer at the same skill level. I think for like 5 years I was just average. You have to really tell yourself you will improve. Like read wikipedia for a better understanding of strategies and ask better players for tips on bnet. After I committed to focusing on improving I went from C-/C to B-/B.
I'll just say that Fisheye got 2nd in WCG with 150 APM, please stop with this nonsense. APM is just noob benchmark tool, nothing more.
On the topic - I believe breaks do help, maybe not directly but you can get a different kind of perspective some times! I look at the game in a different way after a week or month off the game. At first it's really tough to do all the things that you do in SC tho
1500 is supposed to be the meaty part of ladder, and every 100 points is a standard deviation. Obviously with a low population pool and idiosyncratic abilities, the reality of 100=standard deviation is not true, you can get decent fluctuations. But still, overall 1500 compared to like 1700 is night and day. If your overall swings are getting progressively closer to 1500/past 1500, that is progress. But as I said, this is the meaty part of ladder, once you get past 1500, you are better than the average bw player. And its been out twenty years, so expect slow progress. Just enjoy the game.
I know some people who never made it out of D ranks in iccup (1100-1400 I think?) even after a decade of playing.
edit: you should try image training. imagine yourself playing a game from start to finish, provably this is a way to accelerate learning.
On July 13 2018 00:21 BlueStar wrote: I'll just say that Fisheye got 2nd in WCG with 150 APM, please stop with this nonsense. APM is just noob benchmark tool, nothing more.
On the topic - I believe breaks do help, maybe not directly but you can get a different kind of perspective some times! I look at the game in a different way after a week or month off the game. At first it's really tough to do all the things that you do in SC tho
It is a useful benchmark for newbies, who have <100 apm. Ok the barrier might not be 200, let's say it's 150. You are not going to reach 2000mmr with <100 apm, period. It is useful for a newbie to know this, to know that some hand speed is required to play this game, let's not act like an 80 year old with no hand speed can become a pro.
OP, if you've been playing that much for the past year, I'm more than positive that your game has gotten much better. Best way to realize this is to compare the reps of a game from half a year ago to a present one. Take a look at resources, supply, upgrades, tech etc... at various times and I'm more than positive you will see a difference.
I agree with the idea of taking breaks. I'm a pretty casual player and every time I've taken a break, my game has improved considerably. Of course, it may take 2-3 games to 'feel back' again, but everything about my game improves. One of the biggest and most important thing in BW is awareness and I feel that mine goes up every time I come back. Working on that should help you improve quite a bit.
What some folks stated about 1500 being a meaty MMR is something I also agree with. Best of luck!
On July 13 2018 00:16 QuadroX wrote: Wow reading through the posts game me so much insight. I guess in BW it's by far harder to improve than in any other RTS, so I can't compare it to SC2/WC3. Also didn't know that people could play this game for 10 years and still be at my level (which is a bit less than 1 year).
Yeah it's common, I probably stayed at 1700-1800 level for many years myself, now getting a little better with more focused practice (write down BOs, play many games with same BO, compare with how pros do it in VODs, etc.)
I think this thread is turning to a referendum on our play, and less on the matchmaking system. This might start to sound like a cop-out for not being good enough, but blaming us as players might also be a cop-out for a bad ranked system?
I hadn't played BW until shortly after the announcement of SC:RM. I was a decent Wings of Liberty player (Plat, beating Diamonds), but was really intrigued by the idea of being competent at the grand-daddy of esports - Broodwar. Since the RM release, I feel completely unrewarded for the amount of time that I spend playing the game (aside from a pretty cool Mutalisk player icon).
A lot of this comes down to the fact that the matchmaking system is completely demoralizing. I consider myself to be a pretty persistent/determined person but after a year I have nothing notable to tell other gamers from an outside perspective* (no promotions, rating is too susceptible to 150 pt swings). For people in our situation, it seems like we're just as likely to have a competitive match in Ranked as we are in joining '1v1 FS' in the public game section.
There needs to be a way to differentiate players < 1500 because they seem to be worlds different in skill, but all stuck in the same spot. Personally I don't mind arbitrarily setting a new account's MMR to 1500, but giving them 1500 rating is crushing developing players. Let's walk through this 100% probable scenario for a new player.
Create account - 1500 Lose 8 games straight - 1330 Win 1 game - 1345 Lose another 4 games - 1200 Wait in queue Lose a close match - 1185 Wait in queue Lose again - 1160 Wait in queue Create new account - 1500 Repeat
We need to understand that basically no new players are actually 1500 players. Dropping 350 points in an afternoon then waiting in queue is not a pleasant experience. There is no level of accomplishment until after players breach the 1500 mark, which is actually quite a feet for new players. I'd be curious to see how many people bought SC:RM got destroyed in a few Ranked games and never came back because they they didn't think there was anyone as bad as them.
The simplest solution I can come up with for Season 2 of ranked would be to reduce the starting rating from 1500 to 0. Players are comfortable losing a handful of games until they're matched against an equal opponent, but there is no place for them to settle when they can just create a new account at 1500 every afternoon. MMR and Rating are separate from one another, so if Flash creates a new account he will probably be vs pros again in 10-20 games, but his actual rating might still be ~1200 until he gets enough games in. Once MMR and Rating meet that's a pretty good indicator of what your actual skill level is.
* I know I'm improving. - Muta micro, sniping obs & vessels, syncing dark swarm with zerglings & lurkers engagements, advancing through tech tree more quickly.
Why make a new account, though? It'd be a good way to find a game quickly, but you're unlikely to get an even match, then. There's no way past this. If you're starting out, you'll have to wait in queue, there just isn't enough other beginners. You'll have to wait in queue once you break past 1900-something, too.
@aweb: i think your mostly right, but its also mostly moot. 1.22 is going to place people into categories off of only 5 games, just like sc2. Going forward there should be far more accurate sorting.
On July 13 2018 01:41 Soulforged wrote: Why make a new account, though? It'd be a good way to find a game quickly, but you're unlikely to get an even match, then. There's no way past this. If you're starting out, you'll have to wait in queue, there just isn't enough other beginners. You'll have to wait in queue once you break past 1900-something, too.
I'm sure you have more than one account. Everyone does it. You already said its faster queues. Not to mention, there is a case to be made that you improve more when you play against people who are slightly better than you. So it's possible that we're seeing MMR < 1500 caught in the undercurrent of an effect like that.
Every new player hypothetically has a rating floor which is effectively where their rating would settle if they played maybe 50ish games, but the floor begins to be more fuzzy when you consider that some of those < 1500 players continue to reset their rating by making new accounts. Even if you're one of the people who chooses to keep things to one specific account, you might not be matched up against others who are similar skill because they keep playing on new accounts in their attempts to compete against tougher opponents.
Consider: A true 1450 player wants to push to 1500 without the threat of losing rating. Would they be better off on their main account or making a smurf, and getting free practice against slightly tougher competition? If their goal is to brag about their current standing on ranked, then they should smurf until they are improved enough to push their main account.
Now consider that if I'm 1400 and I think that if I want to improve I want to play vs 1450 people, the best thing I can do is create a new account and do the same thing as the 1450 player. What is my best solution? To make a new account.
It's a whirlpool of players that are all trying to get an edge in learning by playing vs tougher competition that is simply caused by an arbitrary starting point that provides little benefit to the SC:BW scene.
On July 13 2018 02:28 Dazed. wrote: @aweb: i think your mostly right, but its also mostly moot. 1.22 is going to place people into categories off of only 5 games, just like sc2. Going forward there should be far more accurate sorting.
I believe for newer players who havent played iccup much, the actual ranking (MMR) value is very important for motivation and i also have some friends who tried and were obsessed with trying "not to lose points" after starting at 1500. So if you start at 0 then obviously you dont have this problem. But then the problem is if you do that, you will forever be on the region where people start their new account and it will actually make it way harder to ever improve as opposed to hovering around, say, 1200MMR.
The new league system will hopefully fix this by introducing ranks so that 1000-1550 is D (for example, the numbers dont matter) and then people will focus on the letter (D/silver, w/e you want to call it) and not the difference between 1450 and 1448 (if that makes sense).
All the past ladders such as WGT, PGT and iccup used that rank system rather than the MMR/points. Sure the points were there but nobody would use that to give their rank and it worked pretty well.
@op: sadly the player population is fairly small so the steps can feel higher but dont despair! I m sure you ve improved more than you think in little ways. Sometimes it s just a little thing holding you back and when it clicks it feels great. I sucked at pvt for 15years, always being below 25% and 2yrs ago for some reason i finally started getting better, there is no single root cause: slightly better macro probably, better army (goon) control, faster expo (less afraid of vults) etc... They all pile up and you need to fix one at a time. Good luck!
Edit: typo because i cant write properly on my phone TT
Here are some profiles I have on my accounts that show just how many people are playing between 1-0 and 0-1. There exists more accounts between the two than there are above 1-0 total, and 1.5x more than the number of accounts between 1442 & 1248.
On July 13 2018 02:45 WGT-Baal wrote: @aweb: you make really good points.
I believe for newer players who havent played iccup much, the actual ranking (MMR) value is very important for motivation and i also have some friends who tried and were obsessed with trying "not to lose points" after starting at 1500. So if you start at 0 then obviously you dont have this problem. But then the problem is if you do that, you will forever be on the region where people start their new account and it will actually make it way harder to ever improve as opposed to hovering around, say, 1200MMR.
The new league system will hopefully fix this by introducing ranks so that 1000-1550 is D (for example, the numbers dont matter) and then people will focus on the letter (D/silver, w/e you want to call it) and not the difference between 1450 and 1448 (if that makes sense).
All the past ladders such as WGT, PGT and iccup used that rank system rather than the MMR/points. Sure the points were there but nobody would use that to give their rank and it worked pretty well.
@op: sadly the player population is fairly small so the steps can feel higher but dont despair! I m sure you ve improved more than you think in little ways. Sometimes it s just a little thing holding you back and when it clicks it feels great. I sucked at pvt for 15years, always being below 25% and 2yrs ago for some reason i finally started getting better, there is no single root cause: slightly better macro probably, better army (goon) control, faster expo (less afraid of vults) etc... They all pile up and you need to fix one at a time. Good luck!
Edit: typo because i cant write properly on my phone TT
A bit late to the party, but in his own words Stork won a championship under 200 APM. While he is a Protoss so comparatively fewer APM is needed, it does show that knowing where to spend APM is far more important than having more APM.
On July 13 2018 02:45 WGT-Baal wrote: @aweb: you make really good points.
I believe for newer players who havent played iccup much, the actual ranking (MMR) value is very important for motivation and i also have some friends who tried and were obsessed with trying "not to lose points" after starting at 1500. So if you start at 0 then obviously you dont have this problem. But then the problem is if you do that, you will forever be on the region where people start their new account and it will actually make it way harder to ever improve as opposed to hovering around, say, 1200MMR.
The new league system will hopefully fix this by introducing ranks so that 1000-1550 is D (for example, the numbers dont matter) and then people will focus on the letter (D/silver, w/e you want to call it) and not the difference between 1450 and 1448 (if that makes sense).
All the past ladders such as WGT, PGT and iccup used that rank system rather than the MMR/points. Sure the points were there but nobody would use that to give their rank and it worked pretty well.
@op: sadly the player population is fairly small so the steps can feel higher but dont despair! I m sure you ve improved more than you think in little ways. Sometimes it s just a little thing holding you back and when it clicks it feels great. I sucked at pvt for 15years, always being below 25% and 2yrs ago for some reason i finally started getting better, there is no single root cause: slightly better macro probably, better army (goon) control, faster expo (less afraid of vults) etc... They all pile up and you need to fix one at a time. Good luck!
Edit: typo because i cant write properly on my phone TT
Like you could type properly ever
Rotfl. Fair point. But in the old PL LR threads I was too excited about CJ or too sad about players (hydra...) doing ridiculous things to type properly
On July 12 2018 21:55 QuadroX wrote: I know it's probably just another "MMR is broken" post. Let's hope things will improve with rankings, but here's a couple of words from a completely new player.
As an example in Warcraft 3 you have a decent level system. First you go up to like level 25-30 then stay there for a while until you learn how to play properly then eventually go up to levels 35-40 which meant you're pretty good.
In SC2 there's was decent ranking system as well. You play constantly and you see how you go up the ladder, eventually you get transferred from bronze to silver then to gold then to plat etc.
Overall you play and you see the results. Like before I was lvl 20 in WC3 or in bronze SC2 and now after a year I'm in plat or diamond, or have 40 lvl battle.net. That boosts your confidence and you see that you are actually making some progress, you improve.
I feel like SC:R battle.net does not have this at all. I started playing a year ago (never played BW before). I play almost every day and my MMR stays the same all the time. When I just started it was around 1100-1500 going up and down like crazy. Having over 1000 games played it's still the same. MMR goes around the same range, never goes higher than 1500. Most of the time around 1250-1400 range. I face the same opponents. I win the same people and lose to the same guys. It's like there's a wall you hit every time you go closer to 1500. Something happens around this MMR (maybe smurfs of pros) and you drop down with like 15-20 loses in a row sometimes.
I feel that (subjectively) no matter how long you play you just stay exactly where you were all the time. I don't see any results or any progress. It's hard to say even by past replays whether I played worse or not. I wonder if it's possible to improve eventually over the years without devoting to the game 8-10 hrs a day like Koreans do. It's very frustrating..
I completely understand your point. And I think you are getting fed information that is irrelevant and/or nothing to do with what you're asking. I along with many others are facing similar situations as you and the answer is simple. It really comes down to 2 points of interest, 1 of which KogeT hit on the head (kudos to KogeT).
Point 1: As KogeT mentioned, there are constantly new names and smurfs being created. So it doesn't matter what your MMR is. Depending on the location and time you play, you may very well end up playing 2K++ MMR people on smurf on new name over and over (until they achieve too many points to match with you anymore). The solution to this is simple...people should only be allowed to have one name for laddering. People will start bitching and whining about "what if I need to practice blah blah blah"....then just play a melee game. Host a "1v1 zerg only" or something. You don't NEED to ladder. Laddering is about finding good 1;1 games and trying to see your rank and how far up the totem pole you can move. Me for example, I've gotten slammed by Nyoken about 8 times in 30 games under various accounts of his. That should literally never happen. I should never even be considered in the same stratosphere. So this is point 1 about why it happens. Whoever is powerbombing you over and over is just some really good player who made a new name for any number of reasons.
Point 2: The second point is about Blizzard itself. They fucked up the ladder system big time. People are gonna cry and bitch and moan here too but basically I don't care. I use myself an example. When the ladder system was still fresh, I was playing ALL kinds of people from all over the world. This was awesome. I got to play people of all different skill levels. I was playing mostly competative games with a few lopsided ones. Now, with whatever "fix" (fix my ass) blizzard did, it takes forever to match me. And when I do, I play the same 10 people over and over. I either stomp them or they stomp me. It is not enjoyable and I hover around the same MMR...moving up and down quickly, for no reason. The solution to this is simple; go back to how it was or improve it to be similar to how it was, minus the lag.
So this is basically the correct answer. You can ignore everything else in the thread. I just saved you 2 hours of your time.
On July 13 2018 04:37 RWLabs wrote: A bit late to the party, but in his own words Stork won a championship under 200 APM. While he is a Protoss so comparatively fewer APM is needed, it does show that knowing where to spend APM is far more important than having more APM.
Good post.
It's fairly simple actually.
Spammed APM is 100% useless. Effective APM can be very useful/important.
If your opponent makes smarter moves than you, your APM won't help you much (unless he's really slow as F).
If you're both equally smart/experienced, the one with more APM is very likely to win. + Show Spoiler +
Unless he's Protoss and you're Terran, then you'll need more APM anyway :p
Point 2: The second point is about Blizzard itself. They fucked up the ladder system big time. People are gonna cry and bitch and moan here too but basically I don't care. I use myself an example. When the ladder system was still fresh, I was playing ALL kinds of people from all over the world. This was awesome. I got to play people of all different skill levels. I was playing mostly competative games with a few lopsided ones. Now, with whatever "fix" (fix my ass) blizzard did, it takes forever to match me. And when I do, I play the same 10 people over and over. I either stomp them or they stomp me. It is not enjoyable and I hover around the same MMR...moving up and down quickly, for no reason. The solution to this is simple; go back to how it was or improve it to be similar to how it was, minus the lag.
Yeah, agreed. They said they did it to control lag, but if they had designed it properly, I would still be playing as many people as before. I didnt lag against anyone, european, korean, south american. I mean the tr changed but I got tr8-10 maybe 3 times, ever. Playing the same guy again and again is hugely demotivating.
As you mentioned, BW is just sooo much more difficult then any other RTS game to improve on. But as someone said, there is nothing more reward when u do improve on it, for me personally it took me years to get anywhere close to where i wanted to be skill wise. And that took hours of playing, and back then we didn't have any vods or anything like that. So i still think Replays is the best way to go, and dont rush thru the replay.. Play it at slow speed so you can see how ur opponent reacts to you moves, and see what you could have done different and how you could have fooled him somehow. 1 year is baby years in BW to be honest, and that is why this game has survived this long i imagine, because when u actually get close to the skill level you want to be.. No better feeling actually! So just keep grinding, even if u get a player that is much better then you, watch and study the replay! And try to learn different build orders, that will help you big time!
Good luck, and you need a thick head to survive brood war
SoonTM we will have a brand new ranking system, with letters and most likely tiers, so the feeling of progression should be much better than it is now. Just hang in there! you should be proud of having put that much effort in the hardest game. As for judging your progress a decent way to do it is to check your population in relation to the in-game clock.
On July 12 2018 22:22 LG)Sabbath wrote: Nah it just takes time, way more time than you think to level up. Learning has diminishing returns, it is not as easy to go from 1000 to 1500 as it is to go from 1500 to 1800. And going from 2000 to 2500 is extremely hard, I know talented players who can't do it.
I assure you there are no pros below 2000 mmr, in fact 1600-1800 players are generally mediocre, and in the KSL stream the pros played 2200 mmr players and completely destroyed them as well, like the games were hilariously one-sided.
Keep practising, be more systemathic about your learning, write down what you want to focus on next, which BOs, and so on.
Here are some mistakes I still make as a 1900 player that leave a lot to improve, for example: - I don't know some BOs very well - Some kinds of rushes still work against some of my BOs, they are not fine tuned - I get supply blocked when approaching 200/200 sometimes - My handling of large armies is sub-par - My APM goes way down in late game
There's always room to improve...
man, the skills of progamers are so under rated by the casual viewer just because people have no idea what they're seeing in a first person vod or a replay. Once you realize everything that's going on in a progamer's game you understand it's WAY harder than you imagined.
Like, to constantly create workers from all your expansions without queuing, upgrading to +2 as soon as +1 is done, monitoring the mini map, keeping ahead of supply, controlling your army, casting your spell, AND on top of it you constantly have to adjust your strategy based on what the opponent is doing and be ABOVE 300 APM just to stay alive.
I can do 1, maybe 2 of those things, but not ALL of them. The more you know how progamers play, the more you realize how hard it really is.
ty2: let me add +1 post to let you know your thread is popular.
1 year is a very short amount of time to learn anything. Continue to focus on the basic mechanics of the game, and your APM will gradually climb. Using hotkeys is the only way to increase APM.
You gotta do focused training/improvement. Focus on improving 1-2 things at a time, while doing a solid build that's not too fragile. If you just spam games mindlessly, you won't be able to improve much. It also helps if a good player gives you a blueprint for playing a match, and some tips where to improve, after watching a few of your replays or obsing you.
I'll chime in with everyone from FBW about to collective sigh because it's "Schamtoo ranting about ladder again."
I think the few points hit are excellent, and I agree with EvilEye a ton. I think the worst of it, is most times I complain as a person who's been playing for a year plus (which doesn't mean a ton, I know) is that the people who bark down at me are the ones not at my skill level.
Smurfing/new accounts are probably the biggest problem. This creates a weird problem laddering, I've run into people who literally have never played the game before,and then people who made a new 1500 account to get some queues. While, both are good for practice, for laddering, which is _literally to prove a ranking_ it's maddening. Some of my points won feel like I don't deserve them because I gained 15 from some person who had 30 apm. The other feel like it's unfair to lose because I'm literally being matched against someone who's 2k+. I guarantee at least 25% of my matches are like this.
To further new account problems, there's no weighted average of games to rank. So a new player with 0 games can take 30 points off of me at 1600, even though I have 500 games proving I'm 1600. This knocks me down to 1570. In SC2, a weighted avg is applied (iirc) so it generally keeps you at a stabilized MMR until you have some truly breakthrough performance. I have a 50-50 winrate but my MMR changes WILDLY all the time when I ladder, that makes ZERO sense.
On July 12 2018 21:55 QuadroX wrote: I feel that (subjectively) no matter how long you play you just stay exactly where you were all the time. I don't see any results or any progress. It's hard to say even by past replays whether I played worse or not. I wonder if it's possible to improve eventually over the years without devoting to the game 8-10 hrs a day like Koreans do. It's very frustrating..
Here are some resources that may be interesting to you.
What are your goals in starcraft? I think the easiest race to play at low to intermediate levels is protoss, but you can play whatever you enjoy the most.
You can ignore most of the the discussion on APM. I don't really play anymore but I'm a 2000+ protoss player with ~150 APM.
edit: Let me tell you one thing though, I KNOW your macro is crap. If you simply consistently build workers, don't get supply blocked, spend your money, and follow a half-way decent build order you WILL be able to get WELL past 1500 MMR. Don't get caught up in spending too much effort over microing units if it means your money piles up.
edit: Let me tell you one thing though, I KNOW your macro is crap. If you simply consistently build workers, don't get supply blocked, spend your money, and follow a half-way decent build order you WILL be able to get WELL past 1500 MMR. Don't get caught up in spending too much effort over microing units if it means your money piles up.
Disagree with the bold strongly:
-Players should do what they find fun, thats the best way to improve, as its a game afterall. improvement shouldnt come at the expense of fun
-pushing your micro to the limits while trying to spend your money is an impossible task for a beginner, but is the process by which you work on multitasking. Your never going to be able to micro and macro unless you first fail a thousand times trying.
Worst trap to fall into for a new player: I wont try x because i cant do it. Exactly wrong.
edit: Let me tell you one thing though, I KNOW your macro is crap. If you simply consistently build workers, don't get supply blocked, spend your money, and follow a half-way decent build order you WILL be able to get WELL past 1500 MMR. Don't get caught up in spending too much effort over microing units if it means your money piles up.
Disagree with the bold strongly:
-Players should do what they find fun, thats the best way to improve, as its a game afterall. improvement shouldnt come at the expense of fun
-pushing your micro to the limits while trying to spend your money is an impossible task for a beginner, but is the process by which you work on multitasking. Your never going to be able to micro and macro unless you first fail a thousand times trying.
Worst trap to fall into for a new player: I wont try x because i cant do it. Exactly wrong.
My point is that micro tends to have diminishing returns, ie: the first 20% of effort accomplishes 80% of the desired effect. Getting your army into the correct general position and then letting a few "a-clicks" take the wheel while you go back for a round of macro and build a new nexus or add on a few gateways is usually the correct decision (especially the building of more units part).
I feel that a lot of new players get caught up watching their army do battle. Meanwhile, they are building up a bank, and even if you slightly out-micro your opponent, if they have 10 more units on the way and you don't, you'll still lose.
On July 13 2018 01:54 rel wrote: BlueStar saying FiShEyE having 150 apm, like it has relevance with how the game is today lol.
Lol exactly. The overall level of play is always improving. So it could be that OP is improving but also the people he plays at 1500 are also improving at the same rate so it is hard to see progress.
People keep coming in here and saying “practice more” and a bunch of other phrases about macro.
I assure you, most of the people here ARE practicing. Stop dismissing our experiences because you don’t understand how frustrating it is to have a ladder that doesn’t reward any progression. That is the whole point of this thread.
It’s a chaotic cluster of shit that doesn’t give a player any gauge on if they’re improving or not. Everyone here probably is slowly improving, but since the ladder is an utter mess at the “skill level” we’re at, it’s incredibly aggravating to go up and down in MMR massive amounts.
On July 13 2018 01:54 rel wrote: BlueStar saying FiShEyE having 150 apm, like it has relevance with how the game is today lol.
Lol exactly. The overall level of play is always improving. So it could be that OP is improving but also the people he plays at 1500 are also improving at the same rate so it is hard to see progress.
Fact of the matter is that Fisheye just has a very good understanding of the game and of course if he played 100% identical to how he played back then he wouldn't reach 2000. If he would just practice a bit and play again now then I'm sure he would have no trouble getting to 2000. But yea, we are not just talking about any random player here though, but one of the better/more talented foreigners at that time.
On July 13 2018 13:59 SchAmToo wrote: People keep coming in here and saying “practice more” and a bunch of other phrases about macro.
I assure you, most of the people here ARE practicing. Stop dismissing our experiences because you don’t understand how frustrating it is to have a ladder that doesn’t reward any progression. That is the whole point of this thread.
No...we are explaining the nature of reality, if you get pissy about that, its on you. We all came from far more harrowing ladders than fucking remastered ever was, with a hell of a more smurfs, random variance, and grinding. Your coddled.
On July 13 2018 13:59 SchAmToo wrote: It’s a chaotic cluster of shit that doesn’t give a player any gauge on if they’re improving or not.
Going up in mmr and playing better players doesnt give you any indication? I'm sorry but using hyperbole to make a point just makes you seem silly.
On July 13 2018 13:59 SchAmToo wrote: Everyone here probably is slowly improving, but since the ladder is an utter mess at the “skill level” we’re at, it’s incredibly aggravating to go up and down in MMR massive amounts.
Everyone is suffering that. It's not just a <1500 problem. Thats why the answer is and always will remain [until blizzard fixes the algorithm] focus on your own weaknesses and have fun. It's not like the OP posted this in the strategy forum asking us to critque his replays. What else are we supposed to do then tell him to buck up and explain the difficulty in getting better in broodwar? Pat his head? Wash his ass?
edit: and the op has stated numerous times hes grateful for the replies. You are the one with the problem.
edit: Let me tell you one thing though, I KNOW your macro is crap. If you simply consistently build workers, don't get supply blocked, spend your money, and follow a half-way decent build order you WILL be able to get WELL past 1500 MMR. Don't get caught up in spending too much effort over microing units if it means your money piles up.
Disagree with the bold strongly:
-Players should do what they find fun, thats the best way to improve, as its a game afterall. improvement shouldnt come at the expense of fun
-pushing your micro to the limits while trying to spend your money is an impossible task for a beginner, but is the process by which you work on multitasking. Your never going to be able to micro and macro unless you first fail a thousand times trying.
Worst trap to fall into for a new player: I wont try x because i cant do it. Exactly wrong.
My point is that micro tends to have diminishing returns, ie: the first 20% of effort accomplishes 80% of the desired effect. Getting your army into the correct general position and then letting a few "a-clicks" take the wheel while you go back for a round of macro and build a new nexus or add on a few gateways is usually the correct decision (especially the building of more units part).
I feel that a lot of new players get caught up watching their army do battle. Meanwhile, they are building up a bank, and even if you slightly out-micro your opponent, if they have 10 more units on the way and you don't, you'll still lose.
Yeah, I agree with you there-- just feel like you have to be careful when talking to newbs. "Dont focus on over microing" might make a new player think: if im microing my mutas and i cant macro while i do that, i shouldnt focus on microing my mutas. But the reality is he should continue to try and do both, fail, and then rise above that plateau. He will be a better player than if he took the quicker route to improvement. You are ofc right about what u said tho.
On July 13 2018 13:59 SchAmToo wrote: People keep coming in here and saying “practice more” and a bunch of other phrases about macro.
I assure you, most of the people here ARE practicing. Stop dismissing our experiences because you don’t understand how frustrating it is to have a ladder that doesn’t reward any progression. That is the whole point of this thread.
No...we are explaining the nature of reality, if you get pissy about that, its on you. We all came from far more harrowing ladders than fucking remastered ever was, with a hell of a more smurfs, random variance, and grinding. Your coddled.
I played ICCUP. I've played many other ranked games. "It was worse in the past" is not a great argument against "this still needs work".
On July 13 2018 13:59 SchAmToo wrote: It’s a chaotic cluster of shit that doesn’t give a player any gauge on if they’re improving or not.
Going up in mmr and playing better players doesnt give you any indication? I'm sorry but using hyperbole to make a point just makes you seem silly.
My entire point is that I, and others, wildly go up and down several hundred MMR, even though we are improving. I know I am, and many many people who review my replays say so too, but my MMR is still a function of RNG.
On July 13 2018 13:59 SchAmToo wrote: Everyone here probably is slowly improving, but since the ladder is an utter mess at the “skill level” we’re at, it’s incredibly aggravating to go up and down in MMR massive amounts.
Everyone is suffering that. It's not just a <1500 problem. Thats why the answer is and always will remain [until blizzard fixes the algorithm] focus on your own weaknesses and have fun. It's not like the OP posted this in the strategy forum asking us to critque his replays. What else are we supposed to do then tell him to buck up and explain the difficulty in getting better in broodwar? Pat his head? Wash his ass?
edit: and the op has stated numerous times hes grateful for the replies. You are the one with the problem.
Yeah I do have a problem? lol? You took a lot of effort to say to a person saying "I have problem" to say "You have a problem." Detective on the case!
You should not think you are not improving because of your mmr, there isn't enough players for your to face opponent around your same level very often, so it is more likely you will play worse or much better than you. Plus it is easier to lose vs weaker than win vs stronger. That means even with a ratio of 3 wins to 1 lose you might get a +10 +9 +9 -25 = +3 pts (awesome). To summarize your improvement isn't proportional to your mmr. It will take more times than you expect. I am in the same situation as you being stuck at that lame 1900mmr because I am gonna lose 25pts on a stupid zvz where I am bad.
I do not know how long you've played or anything other about your personal way of practicing. Likewise I completely acknowledge the frustration you have; practicing and not feeling or getting ladder progress.
But let me tell, I have the exact same experience back when I played on iccup. Getting out of the basic bracket is NOT a smooth ride. I could go up to D+ and D- within a day, between hitting smurfs and newbies.
BUT over time, once you skill evolves to a certain level you will see your rank rising. I was stuck at D for a looong time, but suddently everything clicked and I started rising stability in ranks until I hit my peak.
I think it is part due to the point where you suddently start to "get" how to win and part due to having to play a larger number of games due to the instability of the lower ranks that smurfs give, which can be very frustrating.
So keep playing and improving and suddenly everything will be fun again and then you made a great achievement.
Hey guys ! I coule be wrong but as a 2k mmr player myself i can Tell you that APM is not the core of your problem .
The ladder expérience is not fun and not rewarding for most people due to Not enough player and to laggy.
Back in the days we didnt even have a good ladder système and even iccup wasnt great ! People were smurfing and choosing their mu -the map and even the opponent they would face . #rigged
On July 13 2018 13:59 SchAmToo wrote: People keep coming in here and saying “practice more” and a bunch of other phrases about macro.
I assure you, most of the people here ARE practicing. Stop dismissing our experiences because you don’t understand how frustrating it is to have a ladder that doesn’t reward any progression. That is the whole point of this thread.
It’s a chaotic cluster of shit that doesn’t give a player any gauge on if they’re improving or not. Everyone here probably is slowly improving, but since the ladder is an utter mess at the “skill level” we’re at, it’s incredibly aggravating to go up and down in MMR massive amounts.
Nah, I think most people are saying focused practice is important, not more practice. As I said, I've tried both, I've been playing forever now, I've competed, and the best results I got were from focusing on 1-2 things to improve, constantly reminding myself to do/pay attention to them during the match. When I just spammed games, I rarely improved as much.
Also, as someone mentioned, taking a break helps a lot, weirdly. I find it if I practice/play for a while, then take like a week off and come back, I can see things more clearly and play better.
StarCraft uses a system similar to ELO. It will place you where you belong very quickly, unlike WC3 and to a lesser extent SC2, which take time to place you where you belong. This means that you won't advance in score until you start winning more, meaning that you got better. Then you'll be back to winning 50% and being stuck, once your score again reflects your skill level.
Dear OP. Most people in this thread have given you enough adivce about practice, but I want to suggest something else I think is important. JOIN CPL SEASON 3. I have gained 100-200(yes I fluctuate alot) MMR just from the knowledge and experience I learned there. But more importantly, it is a fun and engaging way to play, grinding the ladder can get old some days, and customs with your team-members are arguably even better. I was on a team with coaches Dragon and Beast, and I learned so much from them already. I have seen people improve so much in not that much time, because we get quick feedback, and extremely good builds to master. I recommend this to all new players, it gives the game a new sense of purpose that you wouldn't get laddering, as necessary as that is.
On July 13 2018 20:00 vOdToasT wrote: StarCraft uses a system similar to ELO. It will place you where you belong very quickly, unlike WC3 and to a lesser extent SC2, which take time to place you where you belong. This means that you won't advance in score until you start winning more, meaning that you got better. Then you'll be back to winning 50% and being stuck, once your score again reflects your skill level.
with a small player base no system works well, tho.
if you want to learn, learn outside ladder with allies and only use ladder to improve certain general aspects, everything else will eat your soul.
On July 13 2018 21:44 MarcoJ wrote: Why are we not waiting for the new ladder system, which will have placement matches and then discuss further improvements?
Because we waited a year for frontier to end thinking it would only be a month or two, waiting to give eventual feedback hasn't been an effective strategy.
On July 13 2018 21:44 MarcoJ wrote: Why are we not waiting for the new ladder system, which will have placement matches and then discuss further improvements?
Because we waited a year for frontier to end thinking it would only be a month or two, waiting to give eventual feedback hasn't been an effective strategy.
between thinking and knowing is a difference though.
I swear I try to give reasonable explanations to why the current ranked system is terrible for low-end players and its goes basically unacknowledged. I guess I need to ask questions about apm to get some feedback.
On July 13 2018 22:22 aweb wrote: I swear I try to give reasonable explanations to why the current ranked system is terrible for low-end players and its goes basically unacknowledged. I guess I need to ask questions about apm to get some feedback.
I read it and found it quite interesting, though doubtful if it would change too much, depending on what you expect of a ladder. Training via ladder usually means you want to get paired up against people a rank above you in an ideal case, so you can explore your own errors. This Blizzard seems to provide to some extent, but not a very nicely supported one. There are many issues with the ladder, the ones you adressed surely are among the more important things.
I can only suggest again you mainly use the ladder to befriend people and train with those, or even better: join a clan that actively participates in leagues and tournaments. In talking about the game and training against similar people, you can achieve a bit more and train on a variety of different maps, than just the standard Blizz offers.
Honestly the normal distribution is probably centered on 1500. I think that happens with these ELO rating systems. I play chess at a few different sites. I checked out one (lichess.org) and the center of the bell curve for all the different time controls in 1500, which is the starting rating for all the members. That means the vast majority of players are in Brood War are likely fluctuating between 1400 and 1600. So it's not just you, it's most people.
Not sure why people think the ladder system itself, MMR and what not is broken. There is a simple solution: 1 Account-1 ladder account. People smurf the shit out of every game in which they can create a new account with 4-5 clicks. When i joined Shield Battery i first tried a smurf. People seem to be bored or dont want to play exhausting games on their level
I completely understand your point. And I think you are getting fed information that is irrelevant and/or nothing to do with what you're asking. I along with many others are facing similar situations as you and the answer is simple. It really comes down to 2 points of interest, 1 of which KogeT hit on the head (kudos to KogeT).
Point 1: As KogeT mentioned, there are constantly new names and smurfs being created. So it doesn't matter what your MMR is. Depending on the location and time you play, you may very well end up playing 2K++ MMR people on smurf on new name over and over (until they achieve too many points to match with you anymore). The solution to this is simple...people should only be allowed to have one name for laddering. People will start bitching and whining about "what if I need to practice blah blah blah"....then just play a melee game. Host a "1v1 zerg only" or something. You don't NEED to ladder. Laddering is about finding good 1;1 games and trying to see your rank and how far up the totem pole you can move. Me for example, I've gotten slammed by Nyoken about 8 times in 30 games under various accounts of his. That should literally never happen. I should never even be considered in the same stratosphere. So this is point 1 about why it happens. Whoever is powerbombing you over and over is just some really good player who made a new name for any number of reasons.
Point 2: The second point is about Blizzard itself. They fucked up the ladder system big time. People are gonna cry and bitch and moan here too but basically I don't care. I use myself an example. When the ladder system was still fresh, I was playing ALL kinds of people from all over the world. This was awesome. I got to play people of all different skill levels. I was playing mostly competative games with a few lopsided ones. Now, with whatever "fix" (fix my ass) blizzard did, it takes forever to match me. And when I do, I play the same 10 people over and over. I either stomp them or they stomp me. It is not enjoyable and I hover around the same MMR...moving up and down quickly, for no reason. The solution to this is simple; go back to how it was or improve it to be similar to how it was, minus the lag.
So this is basically the correct answer. You can ignore everything else in the thread. I just saved you 2 hours of your time.
You're welcome.
Wow, that's one of the best replies here so far, thanks! I completely agree with you man.
I felt the same on the day Remastered went to public there were better games (closer skill matching) and better ladder system. Then people started bitching about the lag and after constant waves of "fixing" this system we come to this point. I also think there might be way more players online when SC:R was just out (like for the first couple of weeks since the release date), especially new players, then they realized how hard the game is and left. They had a very good idea of global matchmaking and it was the way to go since the player pool is so low. If not for this damn "semi-local matchmaking" fix! I tried to post this to blizzard forums about that issue but the majority of players still prefer lesser lag over the queue time and better ladder. In the last Developer Update post they say they finally got the ladder system right in terms of latency and they are pretty happy about the change, so I doubt it would be reconsidered in the future updates. Glad that not only I think that lag fixes should not be at the cost of good match making.
On July 12 2018 21:55 QuadroX wrote: I feel that (subjectively) no matter how long you play you just stay exactly where you were all the time. I don't see any results or any progress. It's hard to say even by past replays whether I played worse or not. I wonder if it's possible to improve eventually over the years without devoting to the game 8-10 hrs a day like Koreans do. It's very frustrating..
Here are some resources that may be interesting to you.
What are your goals in starcraft? I think the easiest race to play at low to intermediate levels is protoss, but you can play whatever you enjoy the most.
You can ignore most of the the discussion on APM. I don't really play anymore but I'm a 2000+ protoss player with ~150 APM.
edit: Let me tell you one thing though, I KNOW your macro is crap. If you simply consistently build workers, don't get supply blocked, spend your money, and follow a half-way decent build order you WILL be able to get WELL past 1500 MMR. Don't get caught up in spending too much effort over microing units if it means your money piles up.
Thank you, I've read the first two articles before and listened to Day9 podcasts. Good stuff! Yeah I suck at all fronts even pumping army and not ever getting supply block is hard. There's definitely room for improvement let's see how I do in another year from now. :D Also somebody suggested to look at my army count at a certain game time. That's very good point, I'll compare my first and last replays. Hope I'll see the difference.
On July 12 2018 21:55 QuadroX wrote: I know it's probably just another "MMR is broken" post. Let's hope things will improve with rankings, but here's a couple of words from a completely new player.
As an example in Warcraft 3 you have a decent level system. First you go up to like level 25-30 then stay there for a while until you learn how to play properly then eventually go up to levels 35-40 which meant you're pretty good.
In SC2 there's was decent ranking system as well. You play constantly and you see how you go up the ladder, eventually you get transferred from bronze to silver then to gold then to plat etc.
Overall you play and you see the results. Like before I was lvl 20 in WC3 or in bronze SC2 and now after a year I'm in plat or diamond, or have 40 lvl battle.net. That boosts your confidence and you see that you are actually making some progress, you improve.
I feel like SC:R battle.net does not have this at all. I started playing a year ago (never played BW before). I play almost every day and my MMR stays the same all the time. When I just started it was around 1100-1500 going up and down like crazy. Having over 1000 games played it's still the same. MMR goes around the same range, never goes higher than 1500. Most of the time around 1250-1400 range. I face the same opponents. I win the same people and lose to the same guys. It's like there's a wall you hit every time you go closer to 1500. Something happens around this MMR (maybe smurfs of pros) and you drop down with like 15-20 loses in a row sometimes.
I feel that (subjectively) no matter how long you play you just stay exactly where you were all the time. I don't see any results or any progress. It's hard to say even by past replays whether I played worse or not. I wonder if it's possible to improve eventually over the years without devoting to the game 8-10 hrs a day like Koreans do. It's very frustrating..
I completely understand your point. And I think you are getting fed information that is irrelevant and/or nothing to do with what you're asking. I along with many others are facing similar situations as you and the answer is simple. It really comes down to 2 points of interest, 1 of which KogeT hit on the head (kudos to KogeT).
Point 1: As KogeT mentioned, there are constantly new names and smurfs being created. So it doesn't matter what your MMR is. Depending on the location and time you play, you may very well end up playing 2K++ MMR people on smurf on new name over and over (until they achieve too many points to match with you anymore). The solution to this is simple...people should only be allowed to have one name for laddering. People will start bitching and whining about "what if I need to practice blah blah blah"....then just play a melee game. Host a "1v1 zerg only" or something. You don't NEED to ladder. Laddering is about finding good 1;1 games and trying to see your rank and how far up the totem pole you can move. Me for example, I've gotten slammed by Nyoken about 8 times in 30 games under various accounts of his. That should literally never happen. I should never even be considered in the same stratosphere. So this is point 1 about why it happens. Whoever is powerbombing you over and over is just some really good player who made a new name for any number of reasons.
Point 2: The second point is about Blizzard itself. They fucked up the ladder system big time. People are gonna cry and bitch and moan here too but basically I don't care. I use myself an example. When the ladder system was still fresh, I was playing ALL kinds of people from all over the world. This was awesome. I got to play people of all different skill levels. I was playing mostly competative games with a few lopsided ones. Now, with whatever "fix" (fix my ass) blizzard did, it takes forever to match me. And when I do, I play the same 10 people over and over. I either stomp them or they stomp me. It is not enjoyable and I hover around the same MMR...moving up and down quickly, for no reason. The solution to this is simple; go back to how it was or improve it to be similar to how it was, minus the lag.
So this is basically the correct answer. You can ignore everything else in the thread. I just saved you 2 hours of your time.
You're welcome.
Yeah, isnt it odd that you played everyone when everyone was in the same MMR? What do you want, a MMR reset every month?
On July 13 2018 13:59 SchAmToo wrote: People keep coming in here and saying “practice more” and a bunch of other phrases about macro.
I assure you, most of the people here ARE practicing. Stop dismissing our experiences because you don’t understand how frustrating it is to have a ladder that doesn’t reward any progression. That is the whole point of this thread.
It’s a chaotic cluster of shit that doesn’t give a player any gauge on if they’re improving or not. Everyone here probably is slowly improving, but since the ladder is an utter mess at the “skill level” we’re at, it’s incredibly aggravating to go up and down in MMR massive amounts.
Yeah actually that was the point. 100% agree on that one. Though some people found FishEye APM discussions more interesting. :D
Tranlating for blizzard devs: K-factor of elo aka mmr is just to high, so point fluctuations are also to high. Also there should be some lock for ladder acounts, like 2 max - per person. Thats all.
On July 12 2018 22:30 Poegim wrote: Making progress in BW is just super hard. Everyone feels that, ppl who dont play 8h/day stays at same rank for years sometimes, im pretty sure most of ppl know this how to be C-/C and dreaming for years about being B rank et cetera. However, the lower the rating, the easier it is to go further. Also Im not sure 1000 is games enought to jump over the D-/D, with i think is todays 1500-1600mmr, there are ppl who plays 10 years and sitting at this lvl.
1500 generally feels around D+/low C- level. Most of the guys I know that were solid C players seem to be between 1600-1800 depending. Most near B before are hanging close to 2k now.
Even guys at 1200 are playing okay, concepts of builds and usually something that at least resembles macro, aka D level.
On July 12 2018 22:30 Poegim wrote: Making progress in BW is just super hard. Everyone feels that, ppl who dont play 8h/day stays at same rank for years sometimes, im pretty sure most of ppl know this how to be C-/C and dreaming for years about being B rank et cetera. However, the lower the rating, the easier it is to go further. Also Im not sure 1000 is games enought to jump over the D-/D, with i think is todays 1500-1600mmr, there are ppl who plays 10 years and sitting at this lvl.
1500 generally feels around D+/low C- level. Most of the guys I know that were solid C players seem to be between 1600-1800 depending. Most near B before are hanging close to 2k now.
Even guys at 1200 are playing okay, concepts of builds and usually something that at least resembles macro, aka D level.
If 1500 is the very middle of the bell curve, which it probably is, then a 1500 player should be "C" by definition
Not sure if you are familiar with Day[9]'s BW podcasts and videos, but they are an invaluable educational resource. They are quite old but it'll help at this level (L_Master said that 1500 is about D+ to low C-).
I got to D+ (pre ICCUP rank inflation) a long time ago in large part due to what I've learnt from him, and I'm sure his advice doesn't stop being useful at D+.
His videos were very different back then as his target audience was to a small group of BW enthusiasts, so try to have an open mind if you don't like his newer videos.
Why do people complain playing someone better than then? I'm happy if I meet someone much better at my 1500 level. I can learn so much from the replay by studying a better BO the opponent had, his macro, and most important - the timings of a good BO.
Let me give you an example - what time does muta come to terran base? If you play against a bad player, maybe it will be 20-30 seconds late, and you will learn the wrong timing to build turrets. Yes the game will be more "equal", but you will be learning the wrong stuff. A good zerg will force you to learn the correct timing, and also force you to learn correct micro against muta.
Also winning against someone, just because they didn't have zergling/overlord in front of your base and you walked that person with 2 rax mm, doesn't feel that good... It just feels that your opponent made a terrible mistake, and you know you'd never win this way against proper play, just maybe get a slight lead.
In addition to all the links posted here, check out these vids by artosis:
After 1000 games I'm still in 1450-1500 range, but recently I finally got to make 200/200 2-1 mech army at 13:30 and roll over my opponent. So by studying my timings, I know I'm improving, even though my mmr is around the same.
On July 14 2018 09:29 angrypofke wrote: Why do people complain playing someone better than then? [when here you could learn how to lose correctly etc.]
Another point that is made again and again in these kinds of threads, which doesn't react to what OP actually talked about, praising a personal preference how games should be played, implying that another persons opinion is wrong.
I'm sure you meant it in the best way, trying to show OP another perspective on the harshness of BW, but:
Why complain? Because not everyone is 100% unaffected by getting bashed regularly by better players, on a "ladder" of which the developers officially claim that it's able match you against people of your caliber. Sometimes some people want to face people of their caliber, they want this and there's nothing wrong with it.
I think I learned something from the posts of people who actually answered to OP and I feel a bit sorry for being part of those who almost derailed a thread again.
Why complain? Because not everyone is 100% unaffected by getting bashed regularly by better players, on a "ladder" of which the developers officially claim that it's able match you against people of your caliber. Sometimes some people want to face people of their caliber, they want this and there's nothing wrong with it.
The problem is the implication that its something special to the ladder or unique to their own experience, or unique to this time. D on ICC was always a cluster fuck. So was C. So was B. So was Fish. I've played people at my level and 8-0d them one day, they embarrassed me the next.
The mm isnt ideal but it will never be ideal because this is a fucking hard game with a small population pool and the skill sets vary so wildly that mere idiosyncratic matchups can result in wildly divergent consequences. Hell, I regularly ran into 200+ apm macro bots at low levels in bw, who could do nothing but a single build, macro well. Any deviation from standard by their opponent, any harass, any pressure, they collapse. You know how long it took me to realize the difference between a macro bot and a good player? Long enough for me to roll my eyes with indifference when I hear complete newbs say they're being crushed by smurfs.
If you cant handle losing a lopsided game frequently, you cant handle broodwar. Because thats what broodwar is even with evenly matched opponents.
Also, if you sometimes you get crushed, doesn't mean your opponent is necessary stronger than you. Maybe he just got away with faster expansion (and you didn't punish for it), maybe a quicker tech. And the end result is it looks like you got owned.
Matches between players, who don't know BOs and counters that well, can easily become one sided. Hell, even pros sometimes make other pros look like total noobs.
Why complain? Because not everyone is 100% unaffected by getting bashed regularly by better players, on a "ladder" of which the developers officially claim that it's able match you against people of your caliber. Sometimes some people want to face people of their caliber, they want this and there's nothing wrong with it.
The problem is the implication that its something special to the ladder or unique to their own experience, or unique to this time. D on ICC was always a cluster fuck. So was C. So was B. So was Fish. I've played people at my level and 8-0d them one day, they embarrassed me the next.
The mm isnt ideal but it will never be ideal because this is a fucking hard game with a small population pool and the skill sets vary so wildly that mere idiosyncratic matchups can result in wildly divergent consequences. Hell, I regularly ran into 200+ apm macro bots at low levels in bw, who could do nothing but a single build, macro well. Any deviation from standard by their opponent, any harass, any pressure, they collapse. You know how long it took me to realize the difference between a macro bot and a good player? Long enough for me to roll my eyes with indifference when I hear complete newbs say they're being crushed by smurfs.
If you cant handle losing a lopsided game frequently, you cant handle broodwar. Because thats what broodwar is even with evenly matched opponents.
The matchmaking isnt ideal because people can reset their entire MMR with a couple of clicks. This is whats killing proper matchmaking and "skill calculation". You can deny that as much as you want. This bullshit is just poisen for the game
Why complain? Because not everyone is 100% unaffected by getting bashed regularly by better players, on a "ladder" of which the developers officially claim that it's able match you against people of your caliber. Sometimes some people want to face people of their caliber, they want this and there's nothing wrong with it.
The problem is the implication that its something special to the ladder or unique to their own experience, or unique to this time. D on ICC was always a cluster fuck. So was C. So was B. So was Fish. I've played people at my level and 8-0d them one day, they embarrassed me the next.
The mm isnt ideal but it will never be ideal because this is a fucking hard game with a small population pool and the skill sets vary so wildly that mere idiosyncratic matchups can result in wildly divergent consequences. Hell, I regularly ran into 200+ apm macro bots at low levels in bw, who could do nothing but a single build, macro well. Any deviation from standard by their opponent, any harass, any pressure, they collapse. You know how long it took me to realize the difference between a macro bot and a good player? Long enough for me to roll my eyes with indifference when I hear complete newbs say they're being crushed by smurfs.
If you cant handle losing a lopsided game frequently, you cant handle broodwar. Because thats what broodwar is even with evenly matched opponents.
The matchmaking isnt ideal because people can reset their entire MMR with a couple of clicks. This is whats killing proper matchmaking and "skill calculation". You can deny that as much as you want. This bullshit is just poisen for the game
Happened on ICC, happened on fish. Same old same old. Smurfs raise faster now, it is simply undeniable that MM provides a more accurate and timely experience for the -vast- majority of players.
Why complain? Because not everyone is 100% unaffected by getting bashed regularly by better players, on a "ladder" of which the developers officially claim that it's able match you against people of your caliber. Sometimes some people want to face people of their caliber, they want this and there's nothing wrong with it.
The problem is the implication that its something special to the ladder or unique to their own experience, or unique to this time. D on ICC was always a cluster fuck. So was C. So was B. So was Fish. I've played people at my level and 8-0d them one day, they embarrassed me the next.
The mm isnt ideal but it will never be ideal because this is a fucking hard game with a small population pool and the skill sets vary so wildly that mere idiosyncratic matchups can result in wildly divergent consequences. Hell, I regularly ran into 200+ apm macro bots at low levels in bw, who could do nothing but a single build, macro well. Any deviation from standard by their opponent, any harass, any pressure, they collapse. You know how long it took me to realize the difference between a macro bot and a good player? Long enough for me to roll my eyes with indifference when I hear complete newbs say they're being crushed by smurfs.
If you cant handle losing a lopsided game frequently, you cant handle broodwar. Because thats what broodwar is even with evenly matched opponents.
I agree with this sentiment and think it answers the op and explains the frustration. Whenever I get frustrated with bw, which isn't often because i've learned there is no point, I remind myself that it's supposed to be reeeeally fucking hard and really hard to make noticeable improvements. Especially without coaching from some one who is better than you who can point out 'no-brainer' mistakes and bad habits we have all built from playing the game relatively incorrectly for years and years.
There will always be a huge swell of players of varying skill levels close to 1500 because a player of any skill level can have infinite accounts which invariably start at 1500. This applies to players, preeminently, who are way above and way below 1500 which drives players who "would be" farther away from 1500 closer to 1500 if they play on that account over a long period of time.
Ladder has gotten tough because it went from being global to practically being regional. Sadly players are having a tough time finding games at even 1.8k MMR which leads them to smurf for quicker Q's. On top of that the player base has shrunk since the release of SC:R because people got tired of playing on the same ladder for a year and our gaming experience hasn't gotten any better.
With this in mind, what steps should we take in order to increase player activity, especially in the foreign scene? For starters widening the MM parameters would help, let us Q up vs Europeans more frequently and vice versa (while trying to improve the netcode in order to have more playable games vs kors, if this doesn't happen then the 2v2 ladder system will ultimately fail).
Secondly, we have to make b.net a more fun and interactive place. Right now a lot of players just log in and Q up for games, which ends up creating a very isolating gaming experience. Sadly that's 1 downside of the matchmaking system. It reduces interaction between players, a lot of the fun banter/gossipy aspect of the game has been removed. On ICCup everyone was together in chat channels, people would talk with each other to find games (obviously because the ladder system was manual) and it created a more fun gaming environment. People were also able to meet/friend add and practice with other similarly skilled players.
Blizzard needs to focus on improving our ladder/bnet experience because that's the biggest hurdle the foreign scene has when it comes to attracting and keeping players around. So what does that entail specifically?
1) Improving the net-code and ultimately re-tweaking the MM so we can have more global games (Blizzard is constantly working on this)
2) Add a ranking system in order to incentivize practice so players can feel rewarded for improving (by adding leagues which is being done in 1.22). They can take this even further by creating ranking subgroups like ICCup/PGT had by adding - and + ranks, that way newer players won't feel like they're eternally stuck in the same rank and there's more sense of progress.
3) Improving on the social aspect of the game so we can draw more players and keep them around. Ultimately this is what will help make BW a self sustaining game, the foreign scene in particular needs help in this regard. I strongly believe that bnet is too big and isolating as is and Blizzard needs to help bring us together. This is achieved by creating default ladder chat channels and merging the foreign servers. They've said that they're gonna add a clan system down the line which will also help.
4) Adding a team ladder, obviously this is and has always been a big part of BW. This can't be achieved without improving the net-code first. I feel like there needs to be a bit more focus paid to the UMS and team game communities once all the MM/ladder issues are resolved.
And the best advice i can give you for improving (other than taking advantage of all the ressources available to you such as guides/CPL coaches etc.) is to not look at your rank/rating. This can help any non progamer level player tbh but it helps lower ranked players in particular because it reduces a lot of the stress/pressure that people put on themselves. You can keep yourself updated by checking your rating like once every week or two.
Also, don't evaluate yourself based on wins and losses, that's not a good reward system.. especially when you're new to the game. Evaluate yourself by setting goals and achieving them. Things such as: i won't get supply blocked more than 4 times this game, follow a build order and try to hit X amount of supply by X minute, there's plenty of in game goals you can aim for.
On July 14 2018 19:30 TT1 wrote: Ladder has gotten tough because it went from being global to practically being regional. Sadly players are having a tough time finding games at even 1.8k MMR which leads them to smurf for quicker Q's. On top of that the player base has shrunk since the release of SC:R because people got tired of playing on the same ladder for a year and our gaming experience hasn't gotten any better.
With this in mind, what steps should we take in order to increase player activity, especially in the foreign scene? For starters widening the MM parameters would help, let us Q up vs Europeans more frequently and vice versa (while trying to improve the netcode in order to have more playable games vs kors, if this doesn't happen then the 2v2 ladder system will ultimately fail).
Secondly, we have to make b.net a more fun and interactive place. Right now a lot of players just log in and Q up for games, which ends up creating a very isolating gaming experience. Sadly that's 1 downside of the matchmaking system. It reduces interaction between players, a lot of the fun banter/gossipy aspect of the game has been removed. On ICCup everyone was together in chat channels, people would talk with each other to find games (obviously because the ladder system was manual) and it created a more fun gaming environment. People were also able to meet/friend add and practice with other similarly skilled players.
Blizzard needs to focus on improving our ladder/bnet experience because that's the biggest hurdle the foreign scene has when it comes to attracting and keeping players around. So what does that entail specifically?
1) Improving the net-code and ultimately re-tweaking the MM so we can have more global games (Blizzard is constantly working on this)
2) Add a ranking system in order to incentivize practice so players can feel rewarded for improving (by adding leagues which is being done in 1.22). They can take this even further by creating ranking subgroups like ICCup/PGT had by adding - and + ranks, that way newer players won't feel like they're eternally stuck in the same rank and there's more sense of progress.
3) Improving on the social aspect of the game so we can draw more players and keep them around. Ultimately this is what will help make BW a self sustaining game, the foreign scene in particular needs help in this regard. I strongly believe that bnet is too big and isolating as is and Blizzard needs to help bring us together. This is achieved by creating default ladder chat channels and merging the foreign servers. They've said that they're gonna add a clan system down the line which will also help.
4) Adding a team ladder, obviously this is and has always been a big part of BW. This can't be achieved without improving the net-code first. I feel like there needs to be a bit more focus paid to the UMS and team game communities once all the MM/ladder issues are resolved.
First you have to get rid of bullshit like Mouse and Keyboard block. Its the biggest blockage. And the game has to be free to play since people dont like paying for games. But that would make things even more complicating. Net-Code is more than fine. Played from europe against someone from USA with TR of 12-16
Good suggestions by TT1. Also, why not just ban all the smurfs? Just leave only one account you can play under which is your Battle.net ID. After the ladder reset, I think that would make the most sense. As somebody said already if you want to practice new builds then go create a custom game named "zerg join" or whatever.
Funnily enough I think brood war is one of the easiest games in the world to get better at, precisely because there's so many areas to improve in.
When I started back in august 2015 it took me a couple of months to reach B rank on iccup. As I continued playing and getting better, there never really was a moment where I wasn't embarrassed when looking at my own replays.
Here are some tips on how to improve at this game:
1. Pick 1-2 build orders per match up. Exclusively play 1 race. 2. Practice these build orders against the AI, push your own multitasking while doing so. For example, I would play the regular 3 hatch spire into 6 hatch hydra build against the protoss AI, and I would use a couple of zerglings to keep all the zealots busy until I had enough units to easily crush the push. Then my 2nd goal was to max out by 12 minutes. 3. Watch and analyze your own replays. Open up notepad, and really think about every single action you're doing in the game from both your and your opponent's perspective. 4. Record your own gameplay. Put it side by side with the corresponding replay. Now cringe at seeing yourself lose units in a stupid manner, or have workers idle in the replay while you're doing something stupidly unimportant in the VOD. 5. Actively watch pro streamers, AND old VODs. The reason for this is, you have to work on your knowledge of the game. You have to understand the evolution of the game, and why certain builds fell out of favor. 6. While practicing online you absolutely NEED to have a list of 3 items you want to focus on that game. These items can be something as simple as (true story for me!): A. Don't forget your overlord at 16/18. B. Get the extractor vs protoss at the latest by 2:45! C. Don't forget the overlord at 23/27. (Yes getting supply blocked is/was one of my biggest weaknesses) 7. Ditch the bad mentality of thinking you lost due to any other reason than you not being good enough at the game. 8. Embrace playing players that are better than you, and listen to their advice.
This is how you improve, it worked excellent for me back when I played the game.
On July 14 2018 19:30 TT1 wrote: Ladder has gotten tough because it went from being global to practically being regional. Sadly players are having a tough time finding games at even 1.8k MMR which leads them to smurf for quicker Q's. On top of that the player base has shrunk since the release of SC:R because people got tired of playing on the same ladder for a year and our gaming experience hasn't gotten any better.
With this in mind, what steps should we take in order to increase player activity, especially in the foreign scene? For starters widening the MM parameters would help, let us Q up vs Europeans more frequently and vice versa (while trying to improve the netcode in order to have more playable games vs kors, if this doesn't happen then the 2v2 ladder system will ultimately fail).
Secondly, we have to make b.net a more fun and interactive place. Right now a lot of players just log in and Q up for games, which ends up creating a very isolating gaming experience. Sadly that's 1 downside of the matchmaking system. It reduces interaction between players, a lot of the fun banter/gossipy aspect of the game has been removed. On ICCup everyone was together in chat channels, people would talk with each other to find games (obviously because the ladder system was manual) and it created a more fun gaming environment. People were also able to meet/friend add and practice with other similarly skilled players.
Blizzard needs to focus on improving our ladder/bnet experience because that's the biggest hurdle the foreign scene has when it comes to attracting and keeping players around. So what does that entail specifically?
1) Improving the net-code and ultimately re-tweaking the MM so we can have more global games (Blizzard is constantly working on this)
2) Add a ranking system in order to incentivize practice so players can feel rewarded for improving (by adding leagues which is being done in 1.22). They can take this even further by creating ranking subgroups like ICCup/PGT had by adding - and + ranks, that way newer players won't feel like they're eternally stuck in the same rank and there's more sense of progress.
3) Improving on the social aspect of the game so we can draw more players and keep them around. Ultimately this is what will help make BW a self sustaining game, the foreign scene in particular needs help in this regard. I strongly believe that bnet is too big and isolating as is and Blizzard needs to help bring us together. This is achieved by creating default ladder chat channels and merging the foreign servers. They've said that they're gonna add a clan system down the line which will also help.
4) Adding a team ladder, obviously this is and has always been a big part of BW. This can't be achieved without improving the net-code first. I feel like there needs to be a bit more focus paid to the UMS and team game communities once all the MM/ladder issues are resolved.
First you have to get rid of bullshit like Mouse and Keyboard block. Its the biggest blockage. And the game has to be free to play since people dont like paying for games. But that would make things even more complicating. Net-Code is more than fine. Played from europe against someone from USA with TR of 12-16
Yeah man mouse and keyboard block is the real issue. The biggest blockage. If not for that, you'd be 3k mmr.
On July 15 2018 01:53 QuadroX wrote: Good suggestions by TT1. Also, why not just ban all the smurfs? Just leave only one account you can play under which is your Battle.net ID. After the ladder reset, I think that would make the most sense. As somebody said already if you want to practice new builds then go create a custom game named "zerg join" or whatever.
One good solution imo: Separate mmrs for each race selection. Right now I have three accounts, cuz i enjoy playing all three races, but I also think playing random is a tad dickish/my races are no where near equal anyway. Separate MMR for each race would mitigate a lot of the need for smurf accts.
@broyal, all your tips are dead on, but for the first few, most people dont have the time, inclination, or patience to dedicate themselves to a game, to the point where they spend time playing against a computer just to get it obsessively correct. You are right that its "easy" to get better that way, but few people-- and none, really, who are older than teenagers-- are going to be capable of following that advice and actually enjoy the game. "Play only one build" is great advice at getting better, its also a great way to convince someone to simply quit the game because their options at getting better are stale and obsessive.
If your 15 and have a ton of free time, play ai periodically and play only one build on ladder.
@Dazed Yep separate race/random MMR would also be great. And I agree that playing against the computer tons of times to get just one build nailed perfectly by benchmarks (e.g. how Artosis does on his stream linked here a couple of pages ago) is a sure good way to quit this game altogether especially for new players. It's not fun at all, boring and tiresome. Also, you put yourself in a box, and there will be tons of stress on the ladder when you missed the timing that you trained vs. AI 50 games before to some weird ass build ur opponent did. You don't know how to react from here and lose the game. Though still, almost everybody here says that to get better you should play nail down one build vs AI by playing thousands of games. The Korean way I guess. It might work if you play full time, but every day coming from work tired just to play your remaining 2-4 hours vs freaking AI before getting into bed that's not a bright future. Thanks, but no thanks.
Though still, almost everybody here says that to get better you should play nail down one build vs AI by playing thousands of games.
every day coming from work tired just to play your remaining 2-4 hours vs freaking AI before getting into bed that's not a bright future.
wtf are you talking about? Who has said you should play against the computer for 2-4 hours a day? Or thousands of times? Maybe a few times when you're first trying a new build, but that's not even necessary.
MMR is broken
I've played 1000 games and no matter how long you play you just stay exactly where you were all the time
ban smurfs
If you stopped posting bullshit excuses you should be above 1500 by now. Or maybe you just never will be, and that's on you. Not because the game is just too hard, not because the ladder system is broken, or there's too many smurfs, the opponent got his favorite color, you were facing west instead of east, you didn't get a fresh haircut before your ladder session, or you forgot to pray to Flash.
There are 100 times as many resources to improve now than ever before. A few years ago you'd have to watch a 360p stream at 4 am without resources or supply counts showing, and now the best players in the world are making first person view guides on youtube with commentary explaining everything you should do. There are discord servers full of people with nothing better to do than answer every question you have about strategy. If you can't improve now, you never will. No, people aren't stuck at D rank for years unless they're morons. Maybe the echo chamber of low rank players who also want to cry instead of getting better will make you feel better though.
every day coming from work tired just to play your remaining 2-4 hours vs freaking AI before getting into bed that's not a bright future.
wtf are you talking about? Who has said you should play against the computer for 2-4 hours a day? Or thousands of times? Maybe a few times when you're first trying a new build, but that's not even necessary.
If you stopped posting bullshit excuses you should be above 1500 by now. Or maybe you just never will be, and that's on you. Not because the game is just too hard, not because the ladder system is broken, or there's too many smurfs, the opponent got his favorite color, you were facing west instead of east, you didn't get a fresh haircut before your ladder session, or you forgot to pray to Flash.
There are 100 times as many resources to improve now than ever before. A few years ago you'd have to watch a 360p stream at 4 am without resources or supply counts showing, and now the best players in the world are making first person view guides on youtube with commentary explaining everything you should do. There are discord servers full of people with nothing better to do than answer every question you have about strategy. If you can't improve now, you never will. No, people aren't stuck at D rank for years unless they're morons. Maybe the echo chamber of low rank players who also want to cry instead of getting better will make you feel better though.
Someone who joined less than a year ago complaining they're bad, that shouldnt surprise you Sero
On July 14 2018 19:30 TT1 wrote: Ladder has gotten tough because it went from being global to practically being regional. Sadly players are having a tough time finding games at even 1.8k MMR which leads them to smurf for quicker Q's. On top of that the player base has shrunk since the release of SC:R because people got tired of playing on the same ladder for a year and our gaming experience hasn't gotten any better.
With this in mind, what steps should we take in order to increase player activity, especially in the foreign scene? For starters widening the MM parameters would help, let us Q up vs Europeans more frequently and vice versa (while trying to improve the netcode in order to have more playable games vs kors, if this doesn't happen then the 2v2 ladder system will ultimately fail).
Secondly, we have to make b.net a more fun and interactive place. Right now a lot of players just log in and Q up for games, which ends up creating a very isolating gaming experience. Sadly that's 1 downside of the matchmaking system. It reduces interaction between players, a lot of the fun banter/gossipy aspect of the game has been removed. On ICCup everyone was together in chat channels, people would talk with each other to find games (obviously because the ladder system was manual) and it created a more fun gaming environment. People were also able to meet/friend add and practice with other similarly skilled players.
Blizzard needs to focus on improving our ladder/bnet experience because that's the biggest hurdle the foreign scene has when it comes to attracting and keeping players around. So what does that entail specifically?
1) Improving the net-code and ultimately re-tweaking the MM so we can have more global games (Blizzard is constantly working on this)
2) Add a ranking system in order to incentivize practice so players can feel rewarded for improving (by adding leagues which is being done in 1.22). They can take this even further by creating ranking subgroups like ICCup/PGT had by adding - and + ranks, that way newer players won't feel like they're eternally stuck in the same rank and there's more sense of progress.
3) Improving on the social aspect of the game so we can draw more players and keep them around. Ultimately this is what will help make BW a self sustaining game, the foreign scene in particular needs help in this regard. I strongly believe that bnet is too big and isolating as is and Blizzard needs to help bring us together. This is achieved by creating default ladder chat channels and merging the foreign servers. They've said that they're gonna add a clan system down the line which will also help.
4) Adding a team ladder, obviously this is and has always been a big part of BW. This can't be achieved without improving the net-code first. I feel like there needs to be a bit more focus paid to the UMS and team game communities once all the MM/ladder issues are resolved.
First you have to get rid of bullshit like Mouse and Keyboard block. Its the biggest blockage. And the game has to be free to play since people dont like paying for games. But that would make things even more complicating. Net-Code is more than fine. Played from europe against someone from USA with TR of 12-16
Yeah man mouse and keyboard block is the real issue. The biggest blockage. If not for that, you'd be 3k mmr.
What a shame that there are Mods. Well i dont care. Hey Fuck: What post did i quote and what was this post all about
On July 14 2018 19:30 TT1 wrote: Ladder has gotten tough because it went from being global to practically being regional. Sadly players are having a tough time finding games at even 1.8k MMR which leads them to smurf for quicker Q's. On top of that the player base has shrunk since the release of SC:R because people got tired of playing on the same ladder for a year and our gaming experience hasn't gotten any better.
With this in mind, what steps should we take in order to increase player activity, especially in the foreign scene? For starters widening the MM parameters would help, let us Q up vs Europeans more frequently and vice versa (while trying to improve the netcode in order to have more playable games vs kors, if this doesn't happen then the 2v2 ladder system will ultimately fail).
Secondly, we have to make b.net a more fun and interactive place. Right now a lot of players just log in and Q up for games, which ends up creating a very isolating gaming experience. Sadly that's 1 downside of the matchmaking system. It reduces interaction between players, a lot of the fun banter/gossipy aspect of the game has been removed. On ICCup everyone was together in chat channels, people would talk with each other to find games (obviously because the ladder system was manual) and it created a more fun gaming environment. People were also able to meet/friend add and practice with other similarly skilled players.
Blizzard needs to focus on improving our ladder/bnet experience because that's the biggest hurdle the foreign scene has when it comes to attracting and keeping players around. So what does that entail specifically?
1) Improving the net-code and ultimately re-tweaking the MM so we can have more global games (Blizzard is constantly working on this)
2) Add a ranking system in order to incentivize practice so players can feel rewarded for improving (by adding leagues which is being done in 1.22). They can take this even further by creating ranking subgroups like ICCup/PGT had by adding - and + ranks, that way newer players won't feel like they're eternally stuck in the same rank and there's more sense of progress.
3) Improving on the social aspect of the game so we can draw more players and keep them around. Ultimately this is what will help make BW a self sustaining game, the foreign scene in particular needs help in this regard. I strongly believe that bnet is too big and isolating as is and Blizzard needs to help bring us together. This is achieved by creating default ladder chat channels and merging the foreign servers. They've said that they're gonna add a clan system down the line which will also help.
4) Adding a team ladder, obviously this is and has always been a big part of BW. This can't be achieved without improving the net-code first. I feel like there needs to be a bit more focus paid to the UMS and team game communities once all the MM/ladder issues are resolved.
First you have to get rid of bullshit like Mouse and Keyboard block. Its the biggest blockage. And the game has to be free to play since people dont like paying for games. But that would make things even more complicating. Net-Code is more than fine. Played from europe against someone from USA with TR of 12-16
Yeah man mouse and keyboard block is the real issue. The biggest blockage. If not for that, you'd be 3k mmr.
What a shame that there are Mods. Well i dont care. Hey Fuck: What post did i quote and what was this post all about
Yeah man mouse and keyboard block is the real issue. It's the biggest blockage. If not for that, Brood War would be more popular than Fortnite and League of Legends combined, but instead everyone out there is like "I'd play bw if not for that darn mouse and keyboard block!" Is that better?
On July 14 2018 19:30 TT1 wrote: Ladder has gotten tough because it went from being global to practically being regional. Sadly players are having a tough time finding games at even 1.8k MMR which leads them to smurf for quicker Q's. On top of that the player base has shrunk since the release of SC:R because people got tired of playing on the same ladder for a year and our gaming experience hasn't gotten any better.
With this in mind, what steps should we take in order to increase player activity, especially in the foreign scene? For starters widening the MM parameters would help, let us Q up vs Europeans more frequently and vice versa (while trying to improve the netcode in order to have more playable games vs kors, if this doesn't happen then the 2v2 ladder system will ultimately fail).
Secondly, we have to make b.net a more fun and interactive place. Right now a lot of players just log in and Q up for games, which ends up creating a very isolating gaming experience. Sadly that's 1 downside of the matchmaking system. It reduces interaction between players, a lot of the fun banter/gossipy aspect of the game has been removed. On ICCup everyone was together in chat channels, people would talk with each other to find games (obviously because the ladder system was manual) and it created a more fun gaming environment. People were also able to meet/friend add and practice with other similarly skilled players.
Blizzard needs to focus on improving our ladder/bnet experience because that's the biggest hurdle the foreign scene has when it comes to attracting and keeping players around. So what does that entail specifically?
1) Improving the net-code and ultimately re-tweaking the MM so we can have more global games (Blizzard is constantly working on this)
2) Add a ranking system in order to incentivize practice so players can feel rewarded for improving (by adding leagues which is being done in 1.22). They can take this even further by creating ranking subgroups like ICCup/PGT had by adding - and + ranks, that way newer players won't feel like they're eternally stuck in the same rank and there's more sense of progress.
3) Improving on the social aspect of the game so we can draw more players and keep them around. Ultimately this is what will help make BW a self sustaining game, the foreign scene in particular needs help in this regard. I strongly believe that bnet is too big and isolating as is and Blizzard needs to help bring us together. This is achieved by creating default ladder chat channels and merging the foreign servers. They've said that they're gonna add a clan system down the line which will also help.
4) Adding a team ladder, obviously this is and has always been a big part of BW. This can't be achieved without improving the net-code first. I feel like there needs to be a bit more focus paid to the UMS and team game communities once all the MM/ladder issues are resolved.
First you have to get rid of bullshit like Mouse and Keyboard block. Its the biggest blockage. And the game has to be free to play since people dont like paying for games. But that would make things even more complicating. Net-Code is more than fine. Played from europe against someone from USA with TR of 12-16
Yeah man mouse and keyboard block is the real issue. The biggest blockage. If not for that, you'd be 3k mmr.
What a shame that there are Mods. Well i dont care. Hey Fuck: What post did i quote and what was this post all about
Yeah man mouse and keyboard block is the real issue. It's the biggest blockage. If not for that, Brood War would be more popular than Fortnite and League of Legends combined, but instead everyone out there is like "I'd play bw if not for that darn mouse and keyboard block!" Is that better?
Ripping posts out of context, exaggerate and being an asshole. You are going all the way, arent you
On July 14 2018 19:30 TT1 wrote: Ladder has gotten tough because it went from being global to practically being regional. Sadly players are having a tough time finding games at even 1.8k MMR which leads them to smurf for quicker Q's. On top of that the player base has shrunk since the release of SC:R because people got tired of playing on the same ladder for a year and our gaming experience hasn't gotten any better.
With this in mind, what steps should we take in order to increase player activity, especially in the foreign scene? For starters widening the MM parameters would help, let us Q up vs Europeans more frequently and vice versa (while trying to improve the netcode in order to have more playable games vs kors, if this doesn't happen then the 2v2 ladder system will ultimately fail).
Secondly, we have to make b.net a more fun and interactive place. Right now a lot of players just log in and Q up for games, which ends up creating a very isolating gaming experience. Sadly that's 1 downside of the matchmaking system. It reduces interaction between players, a lot of the fun banter/gossipy aspect of the game has been removed. On ICCup everyone was together in chat channels, people would talk with each other to find games (obviously because the ladder system was manual) and it created a more fun gaming environment. People were also able to meet/friend add and practice with other similarly skilled players.
Blizzard needs to focus on improving our ladder/bnet experience because that's the biggest hurdle the foreign scene has when it comes to attracting and keeping players around. So what does that entail specifically?
1) Improving the net-code and ultimately re-tweaking the MM so we can have more global games (Blizzard is constantly working on this)
2) Add a ranking system in order to incentivize practice so players can feel rewarded for improving (by adding leagues which is being done in 1.22). They can take this even further by creating ranking subgroups like ICCup/PGT had by adding - and + ranks, that way newer players won't feel like they're eternally stuck in the same rank and there's more sense of progress.
3) Improving on the social aspect of the game so we can draw more players and keep them around. Ultimately this is what will help make BW a self sustaining game, the foreign scene in particular needs help in this regard. I strongly believe that bnet is too big and isolating as is and Blizzard needs to help bring us together. This is achieved by creating default ladder chat channels and merging the foreign servers. They've said that they're gonna add a clan system down the line which will also help.
4) Adding a team ladder, obviously this is and has always been a big part of BW. This can't be achieved without improving the net-code first. I feel like there needs to be a bit more focus paid to the UMS and team game communities once all the MM/ladder issues are resolved.
First you have to get rid of bullshit like Mouse and Keyboard block. Its the biggest blockage. And the game has to be free to play since people dont like paying for games. But that would make things even more complicating. Net-Code is more than fine. Played from europe against someone from USA with TR of 12-16
Yeah man mouse and keyboard block is the real issue. The biggest blockage. If not for that, you'd be 3k mmr.
What a shame that there are Mods. Well i dont care. Hey Fuck: What post did i quote and what was this post all about
Yeah man mouse and keyboard block is the real issue. It's the biggest blockage. If not for that, Brood War would be more popular than Fortnite and League of Legends combined, but instead everyone out there is like "I'd play bw if not for that darn mouse and keyboard block!" Is that better?
Ripping posts out of context, exaggerate and being an asshole. You are going all the way, arent you
What exactly is out of context? Sure, I'm exaggerating, because you're claiming that mouse/keyboard input is a major - no, the biggest - barrier to attracting and retaining new players. How many new players would suddenly come to the game if they changed that? Literally zero, but you personally dislike it, so it's a huge problem and needs to be changed even though it's been part of the game for decades.
On July 15 2018 05:33 QuadroX wrote: @Dazed Yep separate race/random MMR would also be great. And I agree that playing against the computer tons of times to get just one build nailed perfectly by benchmarks (e.g. how Artosis does on his stream linked here a couple of pages ago) is a sure good way to quit this game altogether especially for new players. It's not fun at all, boring and tiresome. Also, you put yourself in a box, and there will be tons of stress on the ladder when you missed the timing that you trained vs. AI 50 games before to some weird ass build ur opponent did. You don't know how to react from here and lose the game. Though still, almost everybody here says that to get better you should play nail down one build vs AI by playing thousands of games. The Korean way I guess. It might work if you play full time, but every day coming from work tired just to play your remaining 2-4 hours vs freaking AI before getting into bed that's not a bright future. Thanks, but no thanks.
It's like saying you don't want to go jogging everyday to get some stamina to play football, because "you're just playing for fun", but then complaining that you can't keep up with the rest of the players on the field.
If you're just playing for fun, just accept the fact that you will not improve, and have fun! No need to blame blizzard or mmr system for that.
On July 14 2018 19:30 TT1 wrote: Ladder has gotten tough because it went from being global to practically being regional. Sadly players are having a tough time finding games at even 1.8k MMR which leads them to smurf for quicker Q's. On top of that the player base has shrunk since the release of SC:R because people got tired of playing on the same ladder for a year and our gaming experience hasn't gotten any better.
With this in mind, what steps should we take in order to increase player activity, especially in the foreign scene? For starters widening the MM parameters would help, let us Q up vs Europeans more frequently and vice versa (while trying to improve the netcode in order to have more playable games vs kors, if this doesn't happen then the 2v2 ladder system will ultimately fail).
Secondly, we have to make b.net a more fun and interactive place. Right now a lot of players just log in and Q up for games, which ends up creating a very isolating gaming experience. Sadly that's 1 downside of the matchmaking system. It reduces interaction between players, a lot of the fun banter/gossipy aspect of the game has been removed. On ICCup everyone was together in chat channels, people would talk with each other to find games (obviously because the ladder system was manual) and it created a more fun gaming environment. People were also able to meet/friend add and practice with other similarly skilled players.
Blizzard needs to focus on improving our ladder/bnet experience because that's the biggest hurdle the foreign scene has when it comes to attracting and keeping players around. So what does that entail specifically?
1) Improving the net-code and ultimately re-tweaking the MM so we can have more global games (Blizzard is constantly working on this)
2) Add a ranking system in order to incentivize practice so players can feel rewarded for improving (by adding leagues which is being done in 1.22). They can take this even further by creating ranking subgroups like ICCup/PGT had by adding - and + ranks, that way newer players won't feel like they're eternally stuck in the same rank and there's more sense of progress.
3) Improving on the social aspect of the game so we can draw more players and keep them around. Ultimately this is what will help make BW a self sustaining game, the foreign scene in particular needs help in this regard. I strongly believe that bnet is too big and isolating as is and Blizzard needs to help bring us together. This is achieved by creating default ladder chat channels and merging the foreign servers. They've said that they're gonna add a clan system down the line which will also help.
4) Adding a team ladder, obviously this is and has always been a big part of BW. This can't be achieved without improving the net-code first. I feel like there needs to be a bit more focus paid to the UMS and team game communities once all the MM/ladder issues are resolved.
First you have to get rid of bullshit like Mouse and Keyboard block. Its the biggest blockage. And the game has to be free to play since people dont like paying for games. But that would make things even more complicating. Net-Code is more than fine. Played from europe against someone from USA with TR of 12-16
Yeah man mouse and keyboard block is the real issue. The biggest blockage. If not for that, you'd be 3k mmr.
What a shame that there are Mods. Well i dont care. Hey Fuck: What post did i quote and what was this post all about
Yeah man mouse and keyboard block is the real issue. It's the biggest blockage. If not for that, Brood War would be more popular than Fortnite and League of Legends combined, but instead everyone out there is like "I'd play bw if not for that darn mouse and keyboard block!" Is that better?
Ripping posts out of context, exaggerate and being an asshole. You are going all the way, arent you
What exactly is out of context? Sure, I'm exaggerating, because you're claiming that mouse/keyboard input is a major - no, the biggest - barrier to attracting and retaining new players. How many new players would suddenly come to the game if they changed that? Literally zero, but you personally dislike it, so it's a huge problem and needs to be changed even though it's been part of the game for decades.
You just said that unresponsive control has nothing to do with how someone perceits a game. My job is done. But nice try covering up your first out of conext post
lol now that's a compelling argument. First off, there's nothing unresponsive about the mouse and keyboard input. The reason you think it's unresponsive is because you're bad at the game. Second, I didn't say anything about how someone "perceits a game."
Do I have to quote posts that are directly above you? You said that "it's the biggest blockage" to new players, which isn't true at all.
Yeah, your job is done. Now you can go back to crying about smurfs like in the other 5 posts you made in this thread. That's the real reason you're bad at this game, right? It's very difficult not to be rude when your arguments are this stupid, sorry.
On July 15 2018 11:22 Sero wrote: lol now that's a compelling argument. First off, there's nothing unresponsive about the mouse and keyboard input. The reason you think it's unresponsive is because you're bad at the game. Second, I didn't say anything about how someone "perceits a game."
Do I have to quote posts that are directly above you? You said that "it's the biggest blockage" to new players, which isn't true at all.
Yeah, your job is done. Now you can go back to crying about smurfs like in the other 5 posts you made in this thread. That's the real reason you're bad at this game, right? It's very difficult not to be rude when your arguments are this stupid, sorry.
Sero is the biggest smurf. He creates a new account each time he loses one game on ladder b/c he's so insecure about himself. People like him are toxic to the community and are ruining the foreign scene.
As a higher MMR player that consistently smurfs in the lower brackets, I can say that it seems like only a small percentage of the games I play in there are against people smurfing.
On July 15 2018 17:16 heyitsMiro wrote: As a higher MMR player that consistently smurfs in the lower brackets, I can say that it seems like only a small percentage of the games I play in there are against people smurfing.
Seems like a mostly made up problem.
I honestly can't tell if this is satire or not anymore.
As someone who belongs being stuck in 1500, I honestly feel the whole smurf situation seems wildly exaggerated. Some players are better, some are worse, sometimes I have a good day, sometimes my opponent has a good day. Part of being bad, is being inconsistent. I've got clan mates who've crushed me one day, and then I've crushed them the other.
However, there's no getting around that the low player population makes the ladder function difficult to work the way we may want to.
If the desire is to see rewards for your improvements, I reckon playingi tournaments could be of great help. Or simply comparing replays, or join a clan where you have in-clan rankings or something. I've improved a LOT since I started playing again, but when I'm manure without talent in the first place, it's not like that'll automatically translate into 1800 MMR. It's not smurfs holding me down. It's my own lack of talent and training.
Broodwar is merciless. It gives nothing. If you're weak like me, you'll be stuck like me. The low player population might make it harder to get out of the 1500 pile, but it is doable. Strong players fly out of it. We really just have to admit that we suck and wildly overestimate how good we are.
Though I reckon the real discussion in this thread is about how to maintain motivation through periodical rewards in a functioning ladder system. I guess as long as we're not focusing on what makes us happy about the game and showing that to the "outside world", we'll be stuck with a low player population. I'd rather focus on showing the world why we endure the games' faults, in order to have more people join in on the fun. Then it'd be easier to get some small rewards for neglible improvements we assume are big.
hm.. isn't there this kind of discussion every time when there is a ladder? didn't think BW would be affected though aswell, since the win depends solely on oneself.
I used multiple accounts aswell, but only in the first week or so of remastered, stuck to one since then and the problem is just, that there are almost no bad people playin ranked anymore. i just guess newcomers will drop below 1500 when they start very fast. 1500 is already above the average BW player ,haven't you already improved if you reach that mark again after some games?
On July 15 2018 02:20 B-royal wrote: Funnily enough I think brood war is one of the easiest games in the world to get better at, precisely because there's so many areas to improve in.
When I started back in august 2015 it took me a couple of months to reach B rank on iccup. As I continued playing and getting better, there never really was a moment where I wasn't embarrassed when looking at my own replays.
You're an exception if you improved that fast. Either that or you played 40h/week.
On July 16 2018 01:26 Navane wrote: I heard B-rank in 2015 wasnt what it used to be.
should've still been a solid C at least, even when taking into account that the variation of points and opponents became a lot higher. a somewhat impressive feat if you consider that iccup really wasn't that easy above a certain range of players, which played the game for more than a decade.
On July 15 2018 11:22 Sero wrote: lol now that's a compelling argument. First off, there's nothing unresponsive about the mouse and keyboard input. The reason you think it's unresponsive is because you're bad at the game. Second, I didn't say anything about how someone "perceits a game."
Do I have to quote posts that are directly above you? You said that "it's the biggest blockage" to new players, which isn't true at all.
Yeah, your job is done. Now you can go back to crying about smurfs like in the other 5 posts you made in this thread. That's the real reason you're bad at this game, right? It's very difficult not to be rude when your arguments are this stupid, sorry.
Actually, there is unresponsiveness. I even think it's more unresponsive compared to 1.16, but I'd have to test to confirm.
But saying theres nothing unresponsive is just flat out wrong. Dont exaggerate like the post you quoted.
While I appreciate the point that OP makes about the ladder system feeling unrewarding, I don't think it's fair to write off every poster who came in here with advice on how to get better and explaining why the system isn't the issue overall.
First of all, one must realize that people experience reward differently. Maybe a younger player who has been spoonfed achievements and daily quests and on-screen instructions for how to play a game, there is a greater demand for coddling and pats on the back than there are for older players who were perhaps raised on games that are unforgiving and don't care about your ego or self-esteem. There's not really anything we can do to change how individual people, much less so generations of players, perceive reward and what their demands for reward are. Just like how in life one person may crack a beer and never stop drinking until they black out because they are addicted to reward, another person can leave a half empty beer glass after their lunch. The spectrum is pretty wide and that is what both OP and the veterans who responded to him have to realize - that there is perhaps no objective "right" way to handle reward systems. Something that can seem obnoxiously hand-holding and baby-talking to you, would still not leave another person satisfied with themselves.
There are many studies out there that insinuate that the system of education used in the 90s and 00s (in America, at least) that heavily stressed raising self-esteem had missed the point. That people are successful not because they have self-esteem based on nothing but feelgood platitudes and mantras, but that they have high self-esteem because they overcame adversity or conquered challenges and thus it came as a result of their successes. When the education system tried to foster self-esteem before accomplishment, this was a misunderstanding of causality. As a result, recent generations of young adults and teenagers have these reward issues - because of feelings of entitlement, or self-esteem vulnerability, or what have you.
Anyway, to get back to my point that it's wrong to write off veterans who are giving advice on how to improve here and how it will help circumvent the perceived issues of the ladder, one must realize that as veterans we have seen both sides of the coin. Not one veteran who has achieved even minimal ladder success (getting past D+/1600, for example) started out that good. We know what it's like to suck, and to get beat up on, and we know of the great smurf illusion. This isn't to say that smurfs don't exist, but there are plenty of times years ago where I thought for sure I just got crushed by someone's smurf only to look at their ladder history and their record, stats, and the players that beat them all indicate that this player should have been worse than me. As others have mentioned, this game is so multi-faceted that you may one day simply run into a player who is your kryptonite, so to speak. Most importantly, this is way more frequent at lower ranks/MMR because the average player's skill set is more spotty, with bigger gaps and thus bigger weaknesses that can be taken advantage of, wittingly or unwittingly by the opponent.
Ultimately, there is no escape from 1500 MMR because you're simply not good enough. That's really all there is to it. Again, as others have mentioned, it's been that way since forever. At 1500 you encounter players of all skill levels, but to pretend that MOST or even a significant proportion of players are above ~1500 MMR is absurd. What IS true is that at every rank, in every match, you are going to be playing against a person who is one of 3 things - trending upwards, trending downwards, or pretty much plateaud. People at 2000 MMR may play a person whose "true" MMR is like 2200 but they went on a series of bad losses to players who were climbing to 2400, for example. They might also play a "true" 1800 MMR player who got a series of lucky wins with cheese and then they would absolutely crush them. So, the moral of the story is that at EVERY rank you will ALWAYS face people better, worse, evenly matched, or mismatched with you. Always. To act like your gameplay experience at 1500 is somehow harder than it would be at 1600 or 1700 is fallacious, because the average skill of the players you will face will steadily climb. If you're stuck at 1500, that means you're a 1500 player, plain and simple; this puts you at roughly the 50-55th percentile. To bring it full circle, to get out of 1500 you need to beat the players you're supposed to beat, not lose as much to players who are around your skill level, and then you will probably be forced to drop the games you play against better players who are climbing up.
Also, let's not forget that while you improve, many of your opponents are improving as well. The average skill level of a 1500 players is much higher than it was a year ago, not simply because of noob and hypebeast pruning, but also because any 1500 that has been playing since a year ago has improved right alongside of you; to escape 1500 you need to invest more time and effort than other 1500s do.
In other words, the way to "escape" from 1500 MMR and the way to reap the rewarding feeling you're looking for, is to git gud.
On July 15 2018 11:22 Sero wrote: lol now that's a compelling argument. First off, there's nothing unresponsive about the mouse and keyboard input. The reason you think it's unresponsive is because you're bad at the game. Second, I didn't say anything about how someone "perceits a game."
Do I have to quote posts that are directly above you? You said that "it's the biggest blockage" to new players, which isn't true at all.
Yeah, your job is done. Now you can go back to crying about smurfs like in the other 5 posts you made in this thread. That's the real reason you're bad at this game, right? It's very difficult not to be rude when your arguments are this stupid, sorry.
Actually, there is unresponsiveness. I even think it's more unresponsive compared to 1.16, but I'd have to test to confirm.
But saying theres nothing unresponsive is just flat out wrong. Dont exaggerate like the post you quoted.
From what I understand, the most likely reason you are experiencing this is if you played with launchers which had the feature that created a click buffer in 1.16. I'm no expert but if I recall correctly, it would just delay one of your simultaneous inputs to be the minimum difference necessary between keyboard and mouse click in order for your 1a click to not block one another.
What posters like 10dla don't realize is that progamers had played for well over a decade without any sort of "mods" or ways of circumventing the "keyboard mouse block." If progamers can reach such stellar heights of skill and APM despite such a perceived fault of the game's inputs, then you really only make yourself like a baby back bitch when you complain about it and act like it's the only thing stopping you from playing. It's not hard, just don't press both buttons at the same time, use a rhythm.
Seems like we went from a system that allowed for deliberate practice on specific maps with the ablity to filter specific opponents/races for deliberate/targetted practice if you could host. .
Now we have blind queue into map pools that have contained outsider with vetoes that will match you 300 points above your mmr consistently if your region is pretty dead.
Rather than start a war about who was truly coddled in which environment can we try to iterate on ladder 1.0?
There's no perfect system. Automated matchmaking has pros and cons. A pro (and con) of manual matchmaking was that the host could look up your record on iccup.com and if you're D+ but are 8-0 you might get banned. (From my recollection, when you joined a lobby it only showed your rating, not your record.)
I think people should just stop complaining though really, because with a player pool this small it's tough to have a perfect system. Consolidating the pool would be good though. I don't get quite how it works, but if EU to US (or other "cross-region" type play) ping isn't that bad they should be matched vs each other. Someone above said that that currently is not how it works?
I, too climbed steadily in WC3 and SC2, while I was stuck at D / D- in ICCUP for the longest time. I actually had to get significantly better in order to get into D+. I don't know what the ranking system is like in RM but the I feel like the 'ranking' system of WC3 and SC2 also rewards someone who plays more games instead of just someone who is getting better. In addition, there are very few casuals left in BW, and the ones who are still playing are much better than a casual. In contrast, back then WC3 and SC2 was filled with casuals, and I managed to get to platinum in WOL without knowing any SC2 strategies and played with BW build orders and BW mechanics an I was figuring out what works while laddering.
On July 14 2018 05:23 JieXian wrote: Not sure if you are familiar with Day[9]'s BW podcasts and videos, but they are an invaluable educational resource. They are quite old but it'll help at this level (L_Master said that 1500 is about D+ to low C-).
I got to D+ (pre ICCUP rank inflation) a long time ago in large part due to what I've learnt from him, and I'm sure his advice doesn't stop being useful at D+.
His videos were very different back then as his target audience was to a small group of BW enthusiasts, so try to have an open mind if you don't like his newer videos.
You should be able to find the videos on youtube also.
Sorry but I don't have RM so I don't know how good 1500 is, and I'm not sure whether people are referring to ICCUP pre or post rank inflation.
I've just found some newer videos from Day[9]. They are extremely well presented up to the level of being proper "lectures" in their own right. t will be obvious to you one you start watching it that he had put in many many hours of effort.
On July 15 2018 17:16 heyitsMiro wrote: As a higher MMR player that consistently smurfs in the lower brackets, I can say that it seems like only a small percentage of the games I play in there are against people smurfing.
Seems like a mostly made up problem.
I honestly can't tell if this is satire or not anymore.
I hope he is joking because it's hilarious if he were. It's so good that I'm jealous I didn't think of this earlier.
On July 16 2018 03:27 JieXian wrote: I, too climbed steadily in WC3 and SC2, while I was stuck at D / D- in ICCUP for the longest time. I actually had to get significantly better in order to get into D+. I don't know what the ranking system is like in RM but the I feel like the 'ranking' system of WC3 and SC2 also rewards someone who plays more games instead of just someone who is getting better. In addition, there are very few casuals left in BW, and the ones who are still playing are much better than a casual. In contrast, back then WC3 and SC2 was filled with casuals, and I managed to get to platinum in WOL without knowing any SC2 strategies and played with BW build orders and BW mechanics an I was figuring out what works while laddering.
On July 14 2018 05:23 JieXian wrote: Not sure if you are familiar with Day[9]'s BW podcasts and videos, but they are an invaluable educational resource. They are quite old but it'll help at this level (L_Master said that 1500 is about D+ to low C-).
I got to D+ (pre ICCUP rank inflation) a long time ago in large part due to what I've learnt from him, and I'm sure his advice doesn't stop being useful at D+.
His videos were very different back then as his target audience was to a small group of BW enthusiasts, so try to have an open mind if you don't like his newer videos.
You should be able to find the videos on youtube also.
Sorry but I don't have RM so I don't know how good 1500 is, and I'm not sure whether people are referring to ICCUP pre or post rank inflation.
I've just found some newer videos from Day[9]. They are extremely well presented up to the level of being proper "lectures" in their own right. t will be obvious to you one you start watching it that he had put in many many hours of effort.
On July 15 2018 17:16 heyitsMiro wrote: As a higher MMR player that consistently smurfs in the lower brackets, I can say that it seems like only a small percentage of the games I play in there are against people smurfing.
Seems like a mostly made up problem.
I honestly can't tell if this is satire or not anymore.
I hope he is joking because it's hilarious if he were. It's so good that I'm jealous I didn't think of this earlier.
If it makes you feel better, i was able to get top 10 in my masters league in WoL without even looking up buildorders, and top in beta without even looking at the units
On July 16 2018 03:27 JieXian wrote: I, too climbed steadily in WC3 and SC2, while I was stuck at D / D- in ICCUP for the longest time. I actually had to get significantly better in order to get into D+. I don't know what the ranking system is like in RM but the I feel like the 'ranking' system of WC3 and SC2 also rewards someone who plays more games instead of just someone who is getting better. In addition, there are very few casuals left in BW, and the ones who are still playing are much better than a casual. In contrast, back then WC3 and SC2 was filled with casuals, and I managed to get to platinum in WOL without knowing any SC2 strategies and played with BW build orders and BW mechanics an I was figuring out what works while laddering.
On July 14 2018 05:23 JieXian wrote: Not sure if you are familiar with Day[9]'s BW podcasts and videos, but they are an invaluable educational resource. They are quite old but it'll help at this level (L_Master said that 1500 is about D+ to low C-).
I got to D+ (pre ICCUP rank inflation) a long time ago in large part due to what I've learnt from him, and I'm sure his advice doesn't stop being useful at D+.
His videos were very different back then as his target audience was to a small group of BW enthusiasts, so try to have an open mind if you don't like his newer videos.
You should be able to find the videos on youtube also.
Sorry but I don't have RM so I don't know how good 1500 is, and I'm not sure whether people are referring to ICCUP pre or post rank inflation.
I've just found some newer videos from Day[9]. They are extremely well presented up to the level of being proper "lectures" in their own right. t will be obvious to you one you start watching it that he had put in many many hours of effort.
On July 15 2018 17:16 heyitsMiro wrote: As a higher MMR player that consistently smurfs in the lower brackets, I can say that it seems like only a small percentage of the games I play in there are against people smurfing.
Seems like a mostly made up problem.
I honestly can't tell if this is satire or not anymore.
I hope he is joking because it's hilarious if he were. It's so good that I'm jealous I didn't think of this earlier.
If it makes you feel better, i was able to get top 10 in my masters league in WoL without even looking up buildorders, and top in beta without even looking at the units
On July 16 2018 03:27 JieXian wrote: I, too climbed steadily in WC3 and SC2, while I was stuck at D / D- in ICCUP for the longest time. I actually had to get significantly better in order to get into D+. I don't know what the ranking system is like in RM but the I feel like the 'ranking' system of WC3 and SC2 also rewards someone who plays more games instead of just someone who is getting better. In addition, there are very few casuals left in BW, and the ones who are still playing are much better than a casual. In contrast, back then WC3 and SC2 was filled with casuals, and I managed to get to platinum in WOL without knowing any SC2 strategies and played with BW build orders and BW mechanics an I was figuring out what works while laddering.
On July 14 2018 05:23 JieXian wrote: Not sure if you are familiar with Day[9]'s BW podcasts and videos, but they are an invaluable educational resource. They are quite old but it'll help at this level (L_Master said that 1500 is about D+ to low C-).
I got to D+ (pre ICCUP rank inflation) a long time ago in large part due to what I've learnt from him, and I'm sure his advice doesn't stop being useful at D+.
His videos were very different back then as his target audience was to a small group of BW enthusiasts, so try to have an open mind if you don't like his newer videos.
You should be able to find the videos on youtube also.
Sorry but I don't have RM so I don't know how good 1500 is, and I'm not sure whether people are referring to ICCUP pre or post rank inflation.
I've just found some newer videos from Day[9]. They are extremely well presented up to the level of being proper "lectures" in their own right. t will be obvious to you one you start watching it that he had put in many many hours of effort.
On July 15 2018 17:16 heyitsMiro wrote: As a higher MMR player that consistently smurfs in the lower brackets, I can say that it seems like only a small percentage of the games I play in there are against people smurfing.
Seems like a mostly made up problem.
I honestly can't tell if this is satire or not anymore.
I hope he is joking because it's hilarious if he were. It's so good that I'm jealous I didn't think of this earlier.
If it makes you feel better, i was able to get top 10 in my masters league in WoL without even looking up buildorders, and top in beta without even looking at the units
Well I'm not surprised, I don't know how good you are but at that time I was really bad (D-/low D) on iccup (pre rank inflation), so it stands to reason that anyone above that would have gone further. I was making 3 hatch lair into muta ling until I realised that it didn't work in SC2, and I needed to use my queens to larva inject haha.
Either way my point was not to brag or put anyone down, but to say that the competition in BW is a lot tougher and it's no surprise why it would be more difficult for anyone to "climb the ranks" when if it were a softer ladder, he might have already been high up the ranks.
I mean in my first season of iccup in ~2007-2008 I went 4-32 and I think those 4 wins were from people whom I had cheesed or were just as bad as me. At the same time, I was level 15 on the WC3 private server in my country with a positive winrate (can't remember my stats). The difference is vast.
On July 12 2018 21:55 QuadroX wrote: I know it's probably just another "MMR is broken" post. Let's hope things will improve with rankings, but here's a couple of words from a completely new player.
As an example in Warcraft 3 you have a decent level system. First you go up to like level 25-30 then stay there for a while until you learn how to play properly then eventually go up to levels 35-40 which meant you're pretty good.
In SC2 there's was decent ranking system as well. You play constantly and you see how you go up the ladder, eventually you get transferred from bronze to silver then to gold then to plat etc.
Overall you play and you see the results. Like before I was lvl 20 in WC3 or in bronze SC2 and now after a year I'm in plat or diamond, or have 40 lvl battle.net. That boosts your confidence and you see that you are actually making some progress, you improve.
I feel like SC:R battle.net does not have this at all. I started playing a year ago (never played BW before). I play almost every day and my MMR stays the same all the time. When I just started it was around 1100-1500 going up and down like crazy. Having over 1000 games played it's still the same. MMR goes around the same range, never goes higher than 1500. Most of the time around 1250-1400 range. I face the same opponents. I win the same people and lose to the same guys. It's like there's a wall you hit every time you go closer to 1500. Something happens around this MMR (maybe smurfs of pros) and you drop down with like 15-20 loses in a row sometimes.
I feel that (subjectively) no matter how long you play you just stay exactly where you were all the time. I don't see any results or any progress. It's hard to say even by past replays whether I played worse or not. I wonder if it's possible to improve eventually over the years without devoting to the game 8-10 hrs a day like Koreans do. It's very frustrating..
I completely understand your point. And I think you are getting fed information that is irrelevant and/or nothing to do with what you're asking. I along with many others are facing similar situations as you and the answer is simple. It really comes down to 2 points of interest, 1 of which KogeT hit on the head (kudos to KogeT).
Point 1: As KogeT mentioned, there are constantly new names and smurfs being created. So it doesn't matter what your MMR is. Depending on the location and time you play, you may very well end up playing 2K++ MMR people on smurf on new name over and over (until they achieve too many points to match with you anymore). The solution to this is simple...people should only be allowed to have one name for laddering. People will start bitching and whining about "what if I need to practice blah blah blah"....then just play a melee game. Host a "1v1 zerg only" or something. You don't NEED to ladder. Laddering is about finding good 1;1 games and trying to see your rank and how far up the totem pole you can move. Me for example, I've gotten slammed by Nyoken about 8 times in 30 games under various accounts of his. That should literally never happen. I should never even be considered in the same stratosphere. So this is point 1 about why it happens. Whoever is powerbombing you over and over is just some really good player who made a new name for any number of reasons.
Point 2: The second point is about Blizzard itself. They fucked up the ladder system big time. People are gonna cry and bitch and moan here too but basically I don't care. I use myself an example. When the ladder system was still fresh, I was playing ALL kinds of people from all over the world. This was awesome. I got to play people of all different skill levels. I was playing mostly competative games with a few lopsided ones. Now, with whatever "fix" (fix my ass) blizzard did, it takes forever to match me. And when I do, I play the same 10 people over and over. I either stomp them or they stomp me. It is not enjoyable and I hover around the same MMR...moving up and down quickly, for no reason. The solution to this is simple; go back to how it was or improve it to be similar to how it was, minus the lag.
So this is basically the correct answer. You can ignore everything else in the thread. I just saved you 2 hours of your time.
You're welcome.
Yeah, isnt it odd that you played everyone when everyone was in the same MMR? What do you want, a MMR reset every month?
Clearly you understood 0% of what I said. I didn't say it had anything to do with the MMR. I said the way blizzard "fixed" the lag issue is by not allowing me to play besides anyone near me and at similar MMR. Which causes me to play the same 6 people over and over. That, coupled with people constantly making new names, means I am either playing the same person over and over or a pro over and over. Every game is lopsided; one way or the other.
Next time you want to use sarcasm to illustrate your point and attempt to offend me, at least make sure you read what I wrote and that what you wrote makes sense....which it doesn't.
You want to have a battle of wits but you're showing up unarmed....
On July 12 2018 21:55 QuadroX wrote: I know it's probably just another "MMR is broken" post. Let's hope things will improve with rankings, but here's a couple of words from a completely new player.
As an example in Warcraft 3 you have a decent level system. First you go up to like level 25-30 then stay there for a while until you learn how to play properly then eventually go up to levels 35-40 which meant you're pretty good.
In SC2 there's was decent ranking system as well. You play constantly and you see how you go up the ladder, eventually you get transferred from bronze to silver then to gold then to plat etc.
Overall you play and you see the results. Like before I was lvl 20 in WC3 or in bronze SC2 and now after a year I'm in plat or diamond, or have 40 lvl battle.net. That boosts your confidence and you see that you are actually making some progress, you improve.
I feel like SC:R battle.net does not have this at all. I started playing a year ago (never played BW before). I play almost every day and my MMR stays the same all the time. When I just started it was around 1100-1500 going up and down like crazy. Having over 1000 games played it's still the same. MMR goes around the same range, never goes higher than 1500. Most of the time around 1250-1400 range. I face the same opponents. I win the same people and lose to the same guys. It's like there's a wall you hit every time you go closer to 1500. Something happens around this MMR (maybe smurfs of pros) and you drop down with like 15-20 loses in a row sometimes.
I feel that (subjectively) no matter how long you play you just stay exactly where you were all the time. I don't see any results or any progress. It's hard to say even by past replays whether I played worse or not. I wonder if it's possible to improve eventually over the years without devoting to the game 8-10 hrs a day like Koreans do. It's very frustrating..
I completely understand your point. And I think you are getting fed information that is irrelevant and/or nothing to do with what you're asking. I along with many others are facing similar situations as you and the answer is simple. It really comes down to 2 points of interest, 1 of which KogeT hit on the head (kudos to KogeT).
Point 1: As KogeT mentioned, there are constantly new names and smurfs being created. So it doesn't matter what your MMR is. Depending on the location and time you play, you may very well end up playing 2K++ MMR people on smurf on new name over and over (until they achieve too many points to match with you anymore). The solution to this is simple...people should only be allowed to have one name for laddering. People will start bitching and whining about "what if I need to practice blah blah blah"....then just play a melee game. Host a "1v1 zerg only" or something. You don't NEED to ladder. Laddering is about finding good 1;1 games and trying to see your rank and how far up the totem pole you can move. Me for example, I've gotten slammed by Nyoken about 8 times in 30 games under various accounts of his. That should literally never happen. I should never even be considered in the same stratosphere. So this is point 1 about why it happens. Whoever is powerbombing you over and over is just some really good player who made a new name for any number of reasons.
Point 2: The second point is about Blizzard itself. They fucked up the ladder system big time. People are gonna cry and bitch and moan here too but basically I don't care. I use myself an example. When the ladder system was still fresh, I was playing ALL kinds of people from all over the world. This was awesome. I got to play people of all different skill levels. I was playing mostly competative games with a few lopsided ones. Now, with whatever "fix" (fix my ass) blizzard did, it takes forever to match me. And when I do, I play the same 10 people over and over. I either stomp them or they stomp me. It is not enjoyable and I hover around the same MMR...moving up and down quickly, for no reason. The solution to this is simple; go back to how it was or improve it to be similar to how it was, minus the lag.
So this is basically the correct answer. You can ignore everything else in the thread. I just saved you 2 hours of your time.
You're welcome.
Yeah, isnt it odd that you played everyone when everyone was in the same MMR? What do you want, a MMR reset every month?
Clearly you understood 0% of what I said. I didn't say it had anything to do with the MMR. I said the way blizzard "fixed" the lag issue is by not allowing me to play besides anyone near me and at similar MMR. Which causes me to play the same 6 people over and over. That, coupled with people constantly making new names, means I am either playing the same person over and over or a pro over and over. Every game is lopsided; one way or the other.
Next time you want to use sarcasm to illustrate your point and attempt to offend me, at least make sure you read what I wrote and that what you wrote makes sense....which it doesn't.
You want to have a battle of wits but you're showing up unarmed....
GG
I was playing from Mid-Europe to USA with 12-16 TR (24 TR to US just a moment ago). How much more range do you need? Funny how this UNPLAYABLE release with NOTHING but lag in EVERY game is very well perceived now People creating new accounts? But...But...People in here say thats just an illusion! Also: Try to argue against that the release of a game brings an influx of player and variety. Go ahead
On July 12 2018 21:55 QuadroX wrote: I know it's probably just another "MMR is broken" post. Let's hope things will improve with rankings, but here's a couple of words from a completely new player.
As an example in Warcraft 3 you have a decent level system. First you go up to like level 25-30 then stay there for a while until you learn how to play properly then eventually go up to levels 35-40 which meant you're pretty good.
In SC2 there's was decent ranking system as well. You play constantly and you see how you go up the ladder, eventually you get transferred from bronze to silver then to gold then to plat etc.
Overall you play and you see the results. Like before I was lvl 20 in WC3 or in bronze SC2 and now after a year I'm in plat or diamond, or have 40 lvl battle.net. That boosts your confidence and you see that you are actually making some progress, you improve.
I feel like SC:R battle.net does not have this at all. I started playing a year ago (never played BW before). I play almost every day and my MMR stays the same all the time. When I just started it was around 1100-1500 going up and down like crazy. Having over 1000 games played it's still the same. MMR goes around the same range, never goes higher than 1500. Most of the time around 1250-1400 range. I face the same opponents. I win the same people and lose to the same guys. It's like there's a wall you hit every time you go closer to 1500. Something happens around this MMR (maybe smurfs of pros) and you drop down with like 15-20 loses in a row sometimes.
I feel that (subjectively) no matter how long you play you just stay exactly where you were all the time. I don't see any results or any progress. It's hard to say even by past replays whether I played worse or not. I wonder if it's possible to improve eventually over the years without devoting to the game 8-10 hrs a day like Koreans do. It's very frustrating..
I completely understand your point. And I think you are getting fed information that is irrelevant and/or nothing to do with what you're asking. I along with many others are facing similar situations as you and the answer is simple. It really comes down to 2 points of interest, 1 of which KogeT hit on the head (kudos to KogeT).
Point 1: As KogeT mentioned, there are constantly new names and smurfs being created. So it doesn't matter what your MMR is. Depending on the location and time you play, you may very well end up playing 2K++ MMR people on smurf on new name over and over (until they achieve too many points to match with you anymore). The solution to this is simple...people should only be allowed to have one name for laddering. People will start bitching and whining about "what if I need to practice blah blah blah"....then just play a melee game. Host a "1v1 zerg only" or something. You don't NEED to ladder. Laddering is about finding good 1;1 games and trying to see your rank and how far up the totem pole you can move. Me for example, I've gotten slammed by Nyoken about 8 times in 30 games under various accounts of his. That should literally never happen. I should never even be considered in the same stratosphere. So this is point 1 about why it happens. Whoever is powerbombing you over and over is just some really good player who made a new name for any number of reasons.
Point 2: The second point is about Blizzard itself. They fucked up the ladder system big time. People are gonna cry and bitch and moan here too but basically I don't care. I use myself an example. When the ladder system was still fresh, I was playing ALL kinds of people from all over the world. This was awesome. I got to play people of all different skill levels. I was playing mostly competative games with a few lopsided ones. Now, with whatever "fix" (fix my ass) blizzard did, it takes forever to match me. And when I do, I play the same 10 people over and over. I either stomp them or they stomp me. It is not enjoyable and I hover around the same MMR...moving up and down quickly, for no reason. The solution to this is simple; go back to how it was or improve it to be similar to how it was, minus the lag.
So this is basically the correct answer. You can ignore everything else in the thread. I just saved you 2 hours of your time.
You're welcome.
Yeah, isnt it odd that you played everyone when everyone was in the same MMR? What do you want, a MMR reset every month?
Clearly you understood 0% of what I said. I didn't say it had anything to do with the MMR. I said the way blizzard "fixed" the lag issue is by not allowing me to play besides anyone near me and at similar MMR. Which causes me to play the same 6 people over and over. That, coupled with people constantly making new names, means I am either playing the same person over and over or a pro over and over. Every game is lopsided; one way or the other.
Next time you want to use sarcasm to illustrate your point and attempt to offend me, at least make sure you read what I wrote and that what you wrote makes sense....which it doesn't.
You want to have a battle of wits but you're showing up unarmed....
GG
I was playing from Mid-Europe to USA with 12-16 TR. How much more range do you need? Funny how this UNPLAYABLE release with NOTHING but lag in EVERY game is very well perceived now People creating new accounts? But...But...People in here say thats just any illusion! Also: Try to argue against that the release of a game brings an influx of player and variety. Go ahead
GG
I had virtually no lag at all, only three of my ladder games lagged, one was against an American. Go figure. He doesnt have to argue release had more players, its simply irrelevant.
StarCraft is a game where you need to study. -Flash
People have been playing this game for 20 years.
TWENTY YEARS. That's a long time, longer than getting a degree from a university, and probably more people dedicated to improving their skills in Starcraft than in uni subjects lol.
I have a different problem that is somewhat related though.
I'm 1300 Terran and every ladder session i have to lose 2-3 games before getting a win. This is because I only que into players with higher mmr because there aren't anybody lower that is queing, but that's not blizzards fault but it sucks. Part of the fun in playing 1v1 is facing people around the same skill. This is really difficult now that there are so few players online these days and I get used as a filler player for 15-1600's..
i play a few games on my account ( i play mainly nighttime) and then i sit there with 1800-1900mrr and X-0 wins and i dont find any more games ... i sit and sit and it finds no games for me ... so i play with next account cause i not wannna wait 30 minutes for game ...
i think its a matchmaking problem first, people not wanna wait 30 minute for a game
On July 18 2018 16:54 Drake wrote: i play a few games on my account ( i play mainly nighttime) and then i sit there with 1800-1900mrr and X-0 wins and i dont find any more games ... i sit and sit and it finds no games for me ... so i play with next account cause i not wannna wait 30 minutes for game ...
i think its a matchmaking problem first, people not wanna wait 30 minute for a game
How is that a Matchmaking problem? You can find games on new accounts. And its Global after all. The people on your mmr are simply not there. And when people are allowed to reroll every time they simply pour gasoline into the problem
On July 18 2018 16:54 Drake wrote: i play a few games on my account ( i play mainly nighttime) and then i sit there with 1800-1900mrr and X-0 wins and i dont find any more games ... i sit and sit and it finds no games for me ... so i play with next account cause i not wannna wait 30 minutes for game ...
i think its a matchmaking problem first, people not wanna wait 30 minute for a game
How is that a Matchmaking problem? You can find games on new accounts. And its Global after all. The people on your mmr are simply not there. And when people are allowed to reroll every time they simply pour gasoline into the problem
It's not global. It's pretty obviously a match making problem: He doesnt get matched against players when he ques in the match maker. Get that? And how are we supposed to take you seriously when you dont even know the global match maker isnt global?
On July 18 2018 16:54 Drake wrote: i play a few games on my account ( i play mainly nighttime) and then i sit there with 1800-1900mrr and X-0 wins and i dont find any more games ... i sit and sit and it finds no games for me ... so i play with next account cause i not wannna wait 30 minutes for game ...
i think its a matchmaking problem first, people not wanna wait 30 minute for a game
How is that a Matchmaking problem? You can find games on new accounts. And its Global after all. The people on your mmr are simply not there. And when people are allowed to reroll every time they simply pour gasoline into the problem
It's not global. It's pretty obviously a match making problem: He doesnt get matched against players when he ques in the match maker. Get that? And how are we supposed to take you seriously when you dont even know the global match maker isnt global?
What is your understanding for Global? Or is Global=Korea for you?
On July 18 2018 16:54 Drake wrote: i play a few games on my account ( i play mainly nighttime) and then i sit there with 1800-1900mrr and X-0 wins and i dont find any more games ... i sit and sit and it finds no games for me ... so i play with next account cause i not wannna wait 30 minutes for game ...
i think its a matchmaking problem first, people not wanna wait 30 minute for a game
How is that a Matchmaking problem? You can find games on new accounts. And its Global after all. The people on your mmr are simply not there. And when people are allowed to reroll every time they simply pour gasoline into the problem
It's not global. It's pretty obviously a match making problem: He doesnt get matched against players when he ques in the match maker. Get that? And how are we supposed to take you seriously when you dont even know the global match maker isnt global?
What is your understanding for Global? Or is Global=Korea for you?
User was temp banned for this post.
I think the meaning of global is pretty apparent. We are all region locked; I cant even play europeans, let alone "the globe."
On July 18 2018 16:54 Drake wrote: i play a few games on my account ( i play mainly nighttime) and then i sit there with 1800-1900mrr and X-0 wins and i dont find any more games ... i sit and sit and it finds no games for me ... so i play with next account cause i not wannna wait 30 minutes for game ...
i think its a matchmaking problem first, people not wanna wait 30 minute for a game
How is that a Matchmaking problem? You can find games on new accounts. And its Global after all. The people on your mmr are simply not there. And when people are allowed to reroll every time they simply pour gasoline into the problem
It's not global. It's pretty obviously a match making problem: He doesnt get matched against players when he ques in the match maker. Get that? And how are we supposed to take you seriously when you dont even know the global match maker isnt global?
What is your understanding for Global? Or is Global=Korea for you?
User was temp banned for this post.
I think the meaning of global is pretty apparent. We are all region locked; I cant even play europeans, let alone "the globe."
no we are not actually region locked. The only "region" lock is latency/con. I played NA West ppl from EU, no VPN. Still its interesting that eon can play Koreans via KR VPN with TR 16. Id assume, the latency check just checks con to the VPN not to actually eon. And bc KR is so crowded, koreans find player with better con than EU faster and thus the MM alg correctly matches them.
On July 18 2018 16:54 Drake wrote: i play a few games on my account ( i play mainly nighttime) and then i sit there with 1800-1900mrr and X-0 wins and i dont find any more games ... i sit and sit and it finds no games for me ... so i play with next account cause i not wannna wait 30 minutes for game ...
i think its a matchmaking problem first, people not wanna wait 30 minute for a game
How is that a Matchmaking problem? You can find games on new accounts. And its Global after all. The people on your mmr are simply not there. And when people are allowed to reroll every time they simply pour gasoline into the problem
It's not global. It's pretty obviously a match making problem: He doesnt get matched against players when he ques in the match maker. Get that? And how are we supposed to take you seriously when you dont even know the global match maker isnt global?
What is your understanding for Global? Or is Global=Korea for you?
User was temp banned for this post.
I think the meaning of global is pretty apparent. We are all region locked; I cant even play europeans, let alone "the globe."
no we are not actually region locked. The only "region" lock is latency/con. I played NA West ppl from EU, no VPN. Still its interesting that eon can play Koreans via KR VPN with TR 16. Id assume, the latency check just checks con to the VPN not to actually eon. And bc KR is so crowded, koreans find player with better con than EU faster and thus the MM alg correctly matches them.
I think its more a player base problem.
I didnt lag against europeans or koreans, I only play americans and canadians now. Usually canadians. My player pool is like ten people large. Its a match making issue. They fucked up. Bad. Ever since the ladder has been in a tail spin, the problem is self perpetuating. The smaller your pool becomes the more likely you are to either restart your account or leave the ladder altogether, which reinforces the same for others. In six months the ladder will be dead outside of korea unless they change something.
I was on my offrace zerg account, got down 1500, and faced the same opponent 5 times in a row. I thus went 0-5 (the guy was 1900mmr, but offracing). I played about 5 ZvPs that day before this, so in the end I ended up with 10 ZvPs and the system kept pairing me against the guy I had already lost to 5 times. It actually queued us up for the 6th time (keep in mind it was the 10th same MU in a row also). This shit is broken AF.
And it's not like I lag or anything, used to be able to play just fine in Iccup era. And it's not like there should be no other players at 1500mmr.
I get that its a tricky issue to get MM/latency right, but the devs need to keep working on this. It's been a year, and this is still beta.
I play the same two regular smurfs a few times every week at low mmr. 18-1900 players that lose 12 games straight on new profiles every few days before playing. I've seen them snipe pretty much every streamer that sets up a sub 1500 stream, even queued into Schamtoo and styled all over him. No one has come close to taking a game off of them.
Assholes smurfs + regional latency matchmaking ladder means that I'll play these guys once every couple of days as long as they decide to be this way. Months later and still the same guys doing the same shit.
Probably the most frustrating is how regionally isolated this experience is. Someone in Europe might not have to deal with American degeneracy, but I don't know how this will ever change for my personal experience.
Now from a strict mmr perspective this experience is fine, I'll lose points but someone else will get them donated while these people tank. But it just means a lot of stupid one-sided games for everyone.
On July 19 2018 04:16 kaboombaby wrote: I play the same two regular smurfs a few times every week at low mmr. 18-1900 players that lose 12 games straight on new profiles every few days before playing. I've seen them snipe pretty much every streamer that sets up a sub 1500 stream, even queued into Schamtoo and styled all over him. No one has come close to taking a game off of them.
Assholes smurfs + regional latency matchmaking ladder means that I'll play these guys once every couple of days as long as they decide to be this way. Months later and still the same guys doing the same shit.
Probably the most frustrating is how regionally isolated this experience is. Someone in Europe might not have to deal with American degeneracy, but I don't know how this will ever change for my personal experience.
Now from a strict mmr perspective this experience is fine, I'll lose points but someone else will get them donated while these people tank. But it just means a lot of stupid one-sided games for everyone.
I just want to reiterate that this is how it has always been and it will never change. There's no outwardly discernible difference between a 1800/1900 player dropping down to 1500 by manually losing games, or an 1800/1900 player who just started a new account to find more games, or an 1800/1900 player who hasn't played in years and just started a new account, or an 1800/1900 player with multiple accounts one for each race, or an 1800/1900 player who went on a legitimately bad losing streak in his worst MU, or an 1800/1900 player who is drunk and high as a kite and is playing with one hand while lapsing in and out of consciousness over the course of multiple games, so on and so forth.
I was an 1800/1900 level player in February and one time I lost over 100 points in one hour, putting me at 16##. I destroyed a few 1600/1700 players to get back to 1800/1900. Was what I did smurfing or somehow immoral? Absolutely not, but I bet at least one of those players at 1600 metaphorically threw his hands up in the air, said "this is bullshit, fucking smurfs," and just sat there being butthurt.
In other ladder systems prior to this, there were seasons that were ~3-4 months long. At the start of the season, EVERYONE is D rank. The people who get their feelings hurt when losing to a superior player would just wait out the first week or two, giving most of the good players a chance to move on to higher ratings, and so that they could have a greater chance to play against people of their own skill level. The people who approach the game with a different mentality relished the opportunity to play against top level players at D rank, when otherwise those players would never give them the time.
In those same ladder systems, you had people who would clear their stats as soon as they reached C-. You had people who got to B with a record of 120-2 because they would only play vs. D ranked players and verify their scores. You had Koreans who normally play on their ladder server (fish) who come onto ICCup for a few games at D level and trounce everyone.
This is NOT an exclusively American problem. This is NOT an exclusively Blizzard MM problem. This is just a fact of life. There is no REASONABLE way to prevent this. If that's something that frustrates you to the point where you don't want to play anymore (not you specifically, OP), then perhaps the game isn't right for you. Or maybe you should get tougher skin.
On July 19 2018 04:47 Jealous wrote: I just want to reiterate that this is how it has always been and it will never change. There's no difference between a 1800/1900 player dropping down to 1500 by manually losing games, or an 1800/1900 player who just started a new account, or an 1800/1900 player who hasn't played in years and just started a new account, or an 1800/1900 player with multiple accounts one for each race, so on and so forth.
There is a difference. That difference is playing at 1300 and running into 1800 players vs playing at 1500 and having some ability to see it coming. People preying on the bottom vs preying on the middle is a pretty big difference. There's also a fairly large amount of room for improvement to this system.
On July 19 2018 04:47 Jealous wrote: In other ladder systems prior to this, there were seasons that were ~3-4 months long. At the start of the season, EVERYONE is D rank. The people who get their feelings hurt when losing to a superior player would just wait out the first week or two, giving most of the good players a chance to move on to higher ratings, and so that they could have a greater chance to play against people of their own skill level. The people who approach the game with a different mentality relished the opportunity to play against top level players at D rank, when otherwise those players would never give them the time.
In those same ladder systems, you had people who would clear their stats as soon as they reached C-. You had people who got to B with a record of 120-2 because they would only play vs. D ranked players and verify their scores. You had Koreans who normally play on their ladder server (fish) who come onto ICCup for a few games at D level and trounce everyone.
I could have hosted on ICCUP and avoided the smurf I can see coming a mile away. It was different actually. How quickly we forget.
And you still don't seem to grasp that the problem isn't being smashed at the entrylevel of D. This is tanking to E/F then getting run the fuck over because players in the BW community think it's hilarious to smash people at low levels.
On July 19 2018 04:47 Jealous wrote:
This is NOT an exclusively American problem. This is NOT an exclusively Blizzard MM problem. This is just a fact of life. There is no REASONABLE way to prevent this. If that's something that frustrates you to the point where you don't want to play anymore (not you specifically, OP), then perhaps the game isn't right for you. Or maybe you should get tougher skin.
I don't know why certain people in the community cry "get the fuck out" so readily. Clearly I'm still playing the game. "There is no REASONABLE way to prevent this" does not indicate that nothing can be done whatsoever. Seems like such a lazy defeatist approach to take towards system design. In a space with evolving tech/systems we're just going to throw our hands up because you think it must be so. So much to say about laziness from new players yet so much intellectual laziness when it comes to potential improvements to a bare-bones antiquated ladder.
I'm providing my feedback. If your inclination is to ignore it entirely in favor of waxing on about how entitled I am then that's your prerogative.
On July 12 2018 21:55 QuadroX wrote: I know it's probably just another "MMR is broken" post. Let's hope things will improve with rankings, but here's a couple of words from a completely new player.
As an example in Warcraft 3 you have a decent level system. First you go up to like level 25-30 then stay there for a while until you learn how to play properly then eventually go up to levels 35-40 which meant you're pretty good.
In SC2 there's was decent ranking system as well. You play constantly and you see how you go up the ladder, eventually you get transferred from bronze to silver then to gold then to plat etc.
Overall you play and you see the results. Like before I was lvl 20 in WC3 or in bronze SC2 and now after a year I'm in plat or diamond, or have 40 lvl battle.net. That boosts your confidence and you see that you are actually making some progress, you improve.
I feel like SC:R battle.net does not have this at all. I started playing a year ago (never played BW before). I play almost every day and my MMR stays the same all the time. When I just started it was around 1100-1500 going up and down like crazy. Having over 1000 games played it's still the same. MMR goes around the same range, never goes higher than 1500. Most of the time around 1250-1400 range. I face the same opponents. I win the same people and lose to the same guys. It's like there's a wall you hit every time you go closer to 1500. Something happens around this MMR (maybe smurfs of pros) and you drop down with like 15-20 loses in a row sometimes.
I feel that (subjectively) no matter how long you play you just stay exactly where you were all the time. I don't see any results or any progress. It's hard to say even by past replays whether I played worse or not. I wonder if it's possible to improve eventually over the years without devoting to the game 8-10 hrs a day like Koreans do. It's very frustrating..
I completely understand your point. And I think you are getting fed information that is irrelevant and/or nothing to do with what you're asking. I along with many others are facing similar situations as you and the answer is simple. It really comes down to 2 points of interest, 1 of which KogeT hit on the head (kudos to KogeT).
Point 1: As KogeT mentioned, there are constantly new names and smurfs being created. So it doesn't matter what your MMR is. Depending on the location and time you play, you may very well end up playing 2K++ MMR people on smurf on new name over and over (until they achieve too many points to match with you anymore). The solution to this is simple...people should only be allowed to have one name for laddering. People will start bitching and whining about "what if I need to practice blah blah blah"....then just play a melee game. Host a "1v1 zerg only" or something. You don't NEED to ladder. Laddering is about finding good 1;1 games and trying to see your rank and how far up the totem pole you can move. Me for example, I've gotten slammed by Nyoken about 8 times in 30 games under various accounts of his. That should literally never happen. I should never even be considered in the same stratosphere. So this is point 1 about why it happens. Whoever is powerbombing you over and over is just some really good player who made a new name for any number of reasons.
Point 2: The second point is about Blizzard itself. They fucked up the ladder system big time. People are gonna cry and bitch and moan here too but basically I don't care. I use myself an example. When the ladder system was still fresh, I was playing ALL kinds of people from all over the world. This was awesome. I got to play people of all different skill levels. I was playing mostly competative games with a few lopsided ones. Now, with whatever "fix" (fix my ass) blizzard did, it takes forever to match me. And when I do, I play the same 10 people over and over. I either stomp them or they stomp me. It is not enjoyable and I hover around the same MMR...moving up and down quickly, for no reason. The solution to this is simple; go back to how it was or improve it to be similar to how it was, minus the lag.
So this is basically the correct answer. You can ignore everything else in the thread. I just saved you 2 hours of your time.
You're welcome.
Yeah, isnt it odd that you played everyone when everyone was in the same MMR? What do you want, a MMR reset every month?
Clearly you understood 0% of what I said. I didn't say it had anything to do with the MMR. I said the way blizzard "fixed" the lag issue is by not allowing me to play besides anyone near me and at similar MMR. Which causes me to play the same 6 people over and over. That, coupled with people constantly making new names, means I am either playing the same person over and over or a pro over and over. Every game is lopsided; one way or the other.
Next time you want to use sarcasm to illustrate your point and attempt to offend me, at least make sure you read what I wrote and that what you wrote makes sense....which it doesn't.
You want to have a battle of wits but you're showing up unarmed....
On July 18 2018 16:54 Drake wrote: i play a few games on my account ( i play mainly nighttime) and then i sit there with 1800-1900mrr and X-0 wins and i dont find any more games ... i sit and sit and it finds no games for me ... so i play with next account cause i not wannna wait 30 minutes for game ...
i think its a matchmaking problem first, people not wanna wait 30 minute for a game
How is that a Matchmaking problem? You can find games on new accounts. And its Global after all. The people on your mmr are simply not there. And when people are allowed to reroll every time they simply pour gasoline into the problem
It's not global. It's pretty obviously a match making problem: He doesnt get matched against players when he ques in the match maker. Get that? And how are we supposed to take you seriously when you dont even know the global match maker isnt global?
Two personal attacks. Abrasive and aggressive. How do i report them? Tested 5 games in a row: Peru, Brasil, 2 USA (Long Island) and Russia. 2-5 minute waiting. I live in mid europe. Both USA had 24 TR, Russia 20, South America some terrible latency. Now that asshole says that matchmaking isnt global. What? Both of them are blatantly lying. How much further does it have to go without having terrible latency in every second game? Is this bullshit going on again that you can only say what people want to hear?
On July 12 2018 21:55 QuadroX wrote: I know it's probably just another "MMR is broken" post. Let's hope things will improve with rankings, but here's a couple of words from a completely new player.
As an example in Warcraft 3 you have a decent level system. First you go up to like level 25-30 then stay there for a while until you learn how to play properly then eventually go up to levels 35-40 which meant you're pretty good.
In SC2 there's was decent ranking system as well. You play constantly and you see how you go up the ladder, eventually you get transferred from bronze to silver then to gold then to plat etc.
Overall you play and you see the results. Like before I was lvl 20 in WC3 or in bronze SC2 and now after a year I'm in plat or diamond, or have 40 lvl battle.net. That boosts your confidence and you see that you are actually making some progress, you improve.
I feel like SC:R battle.net does not have this at all. I started playing a year ago (never played BW before). I play almost every day and my MMR stays the same all the time. When I just started it was around 1100-1500 going up and down like crazy. Having over 1000 games played it's still the same. MMR goes around the same range, never goes higher than 1500. Most of the time around 1250-1400 range. I face the same opponents. I win the same people and lose to the same guys. It's like there's a wall you hit every time you go closer to 1500. Something happens around this MMR (maybe smurfs of pros) and you drop down with like 15-20 loses in a row sometimes.
I feel that (subjectively) no matter how long you play you just stay exactly where you were all the time. I don't see any results or any progress. It's hard to say even by past replays whether I played worse or not. I wonder if it's possible to improve eventually over the years without devoting to the game 8-10 hrs a day like Koreans do. It's very frustrating..
I completely understand your point. And I think you are getting fed information that is irrelevant and/or nothing to do with what you're asking. I along with many others are facing similar situations as you and the answer is simple. It really comes down to 2 points of interest, 1 of which KogeT hit on the head (kudos to KogeT).
Point 1: As KogeT mentioned, there are constantly new names and smurfs being created. So it doesn't matter what your MMR is. Depending on the location and time you play, you may very well end up playing 2K++ MMR people on smurf on new name over and over (until they achieve too many points to match with you anymore). The solution to this is simple...people should only be allowed to have one name for laddering. People will start bitching and whining about "what if I need to practice blah blah blah"....then just play a melee game. Host a "1v1 zerg only" or something. You don't NEED to ladder. Laddering is about finding good 1;1 games and trying to see your rank and how far up the totem pole you can move. Me for example, I've gotten slammed by Nyoken about 8 times in 30 games under various accounts of his. That should literally never happen. I should never even be considered in the same stratosphere. So this is point 1 about why it happens. Whoever is powerbombing you over and over is just some really good player who made a new name for any number of reasons.
Point 2: The second point is about Blizzard itself. They fucked up the ladder system big time. People are gonna cry and bitch and moan here too but basically I don't care. I use myself an example. When the ladder system was still fresh, I was playing ALL kinds of people from all over the world. This was awesome. I got to play people of all different skill levels. I was playing mostly competative games with a few lopsided ones. Now, with whatever "fix" (fix my ass) blizzard did, it takes forever to match me. And when I do, I play the same 10 people over and over. I either stomp them or they stomp me. It is not enjoyable and I hover around the same MMR...moving up and down quickly, for no reason. The solution to this is simple; go back to how it was or improve it to be similar to how it was, minus the lag.
So this is basically the correct answer. You can ignore everything else in the thread. I just saved you 2 hours of your time.
You're welcome.
Yeah, isnt it odd that you played everyone when everyone was in the same MMR? What do you want, a MMR reset every month?
Clearly you understood 0% of what I said. I didn't say it had anything to do with the MMR. I said the way blizzard "fixed" the lag issue is by not allowing me to play besides anyone near me and at similar MMR. Which causes me to play the same 6 people over and over. That, coupled with people constantly making new names, means I am either playing the same person over and over or a pro over and over. Every game is lopsided; one way or the other.
Next time you want to use sarcasm to illustrate your point and attempt to offend me, at least make sure you read what I wrote and that what you wrote makes sense....which it doesn't.
You want to have a battle of wits but you're showing up unarmed....
On July 18 2018 16:54 Drake wrote: i play a few games on my account ( i play mainly nighttime) and then i sit there with 1800-1900mrr and X-0 wins and i dont find any more games ... i sit and sit and it finds no games for me ... so i play with next account cause i not wannna wait 30 minutes for game ...
i think its a matchmaking problem first, people not wanna wait 30 minute for a game
How is that a Matchmaking problem? You can find games on new accounts. And its Global after all. The people on your mmr are simply not there. And when people are allowed to reroll every time they simply pour gasoline into the problem
It's not global. It's pretty obviously a match making problem: He doesnt get matched against players when he ques in the match maker. Get that? And how are we supposed to take you seriously when you dont even know the global match maker isnt global?
Two personal attacks. Abrasive and aggressive. How do i report them? Tested 5 games in a row: Peru, Brasil, 2 USA (Long Island) and Russia. 2-5 minute waiting. I live in mid europe. Both USA had 24 TR, Russia 20, South America some terrible latency. Now that asshole says that matchmaking isnt global. What? Both of them are blatantly lying. How much further does it have to go without having terrible latency in every second game? Is this bullshit going on again that you can only say what people want to hear?
Alright, you have a better connection experience, and? I dont. Plenty of people dont, plenty of people wait in que for 30 minutes only to get a matchup they can sleep through and win, and then play the guy endlessly on repeat. Plenty of players have recorded videos of their epic que times, or +1 point wins, which is why so many people are paying to use VPN's.
And where did I insult you or anyone? I can clearly see where you called me an asshole, but my insult? Seems imaginary...
edit: 1 post...shouldnt of taken the bait. i apologize everyone.
On July 12 2018 21:55 QuadroX wrote: I know it's probably just another "MMR is broken" post. Let's hope things will improve with rankings, but here's a couple of words from a completely new player.
As an example in Warcraft 3 you have a decent level system. First you go up to like level 25-30 then stay there for a while until you learn how to play properly then eventually go up to levels 35-40 which meant you're pretty good.
In SC2 there's was decent ranking system as well. You play constantly and you see how you go up the ladder, eventually you get transferred from bronze to silver then to gold then to plat etc.
Overall you play and you see the results. Like before I was lvl 20 in WC3 or in bronze SC2 and now after a year I'm in plat or diamond, or have 40 lvl battle.net. That boosts your confidence and you see that you are actually making some progress, you improve.
I feel like SC:R battle.net does not have this at all. I started playing a year ago (never played BW before). I play almost every day and my MMR stays the same all the time. When I just started it was around 1100-1500 going up and down like crazy. Having over 1000 games played it's still the same. MMR goes around the same range, never goes higher than 1500. Most of the time around 1250-1400 range. I face the same opponents. I win the same people and lose to the same guys. It's like there's a wall you hit every time you go closer to 1500. Something happens around this MMR (maybe smurfs of pros) and you drop down with like 15-20 loses in a row sometimes.
I feel that (subjectively) no matter how long you play you just stay exactly where you were all the time. I don't see any results or any progress. It's hard to say even by past replays whether I played worse or not. I wonder if it's possible to improve eventually over the years without devoting to the game 8-10 hrs a day like Koreans do. It's very frustrating..
I completely understand your point. And I think you are getting fed information that is irrelevant and/or nothing to do with what you're asking. I along with many others are facing similar situations as you and the answer is simple. It really comes down to 2 points of interest, 1 of which KogeT hit on the head (kudos to KogeT).
Point 1: As KogeT mentioned, there are constantly new names and smurfs being created. So it doesn't matter what your MMR is. Depending on the location and time you play, you may very well end up playing 2K++ MMR people on smurf on new name over and over (until they achieve too many points to match with you anymore). The solution to this is simple...people should only be allowed to have one name for laddering. People will start bitching and whining about "what if I need to practice blah blah blah"....then just play a melee game. Host a "1v1 zerg only" or something. You don't NEED to ladder. Laddering is about finding good 1;1 games and trying to see your rank and how far up the totem pole you can move. Me for example, I've gotten slammed by Nyoken about 8 times in 30 games under various accounts of his. That should literally never happen. I should never even be considered in the same stratosphere. So this is point 1 about why it happens. Whoever is powerbombing you over and over is just some really good player who made a new name for any number of reasons.
Point 2: The second point is about Blizzard itself. They fucked up the ladder system big time. People are gonna cry and bitch and moan here too but basically I don't care. I use myself an example. When the ladder system was still fresh, I was playing ALL kinds of people from all over the world. This was awesome. I got to play people of all different skill levels. I was playing mostly competative games with a few lopsided ones. Now, with whatever "fix" (fix my ass) blizzard did, it takes forever to match me. And when I do, I play the same 10 people over and over. I either stomp them or they stomp me. It is not enjoyable and I hover around the same MMR...moving up and down quickly, for no reason. The solution to this is simple; go back to how it was or improve it to be similar to how it was, minus the lag.
So this is basically the correct answer. You can ignore everything else in the thread. I just saved you 2 hours of your time.
You're welcome.
Yeah, isnt it odd that you played everyone when everyone was in the same MMR? What do you want, a MMR reset every month?
Clearly you understood 0% of what I said. I didn't say it had anything to do with the MMR. I said the way blizzard "fixed" the lag issue is by not allowing me to play besides anyone near me and at similar MMR. Which causes me to play the same 6 people over and over. That, coupled with people constantly making new names, means I am either playing the same person over and over or a pro over and over. Every game is lopsided; one way or the other.
Next time you want to use sarcasm to illustrate your point and attempt to offend me, at least make sure you read what I wrote and that what you wrote makes sense....which it doesn't.
You want to have a battle of wits but you're showing up unarmed....
GG
On July 19 2018 02:28 Dazed. wrote:
On July 19 2018 01:46 10dla wrote:
On July 18 2018 16:54 Drake wrote: i play a few games on my account ( i play mainly nighttime) and then i sit there with 1800-1900mrr and X-0 wins and i dont find any more games ... i sit and sit and it finds no games for me ... so i play with next account cause i not wannna wait 30 minutes for game ...
i think its a matchmaking problem first, people not wanna wait 30 minute for a game
How is that a Matchmaking problem? You can find games on new accounts. And its Global after all. The people on your mmr are simply not there. And when people are allowed to reroll every time they simply pour gasoline into the problem
It's not global. It's pretty obviously a match making problem: He doesnt get matched against players when he ques in the match maker. Get that? And how are we supposed to take you seriously when you dont even know the global match maker isnt global?
Two personal attacks. Abrasive and aggressive. How do i report them? Tested 5 games in a row: Peru, Brasil, 2 USA (Long Island) and Russia. 2-5 minute waiting. I live in mid europe. Both USA had 24 TR, Russia 20, South America some terrible latency. Now that asshole says that matchmaking isnt global. What? Both of them are blatantly lying. How much further does it have to go without having terrible latency in every second game? Is this bullshit going on again that you can only say what people want to hear?
Alright, you have a better connection experience, and? I dont. Plenty of people dont, plenty of people wait in que for 30 minutes only to get a matchup they can sleep through and win, and then play the guy endlessly on repeat. Plenty of players have recorded videos of their epic que times, or +1 point wins, which is why so many people are paying to use VPN's.
And where did I insult you or anyone? I can clearly see where you called me an asshole, but my insult? Seems imaginary...
If you want to be matched globally, you have to make sure you have a good connection. This is how this peer to peer bullshit works. You cant have a shitty connection and make everyone else experience miserable. Why do you guys blame Matchmaking for that? I got matched with Peru after ~4-5 minutes, so the matchmaking clearly isnt even about perfect connection
On July 12 2018 21:55 QuadroX wrote: I know it's probably just another "MMR is broken" post. Let's hope things will improve with rankings, but here's a couple of words from a completely new player.
As an example in Warcraft 3 you have a decent level system. First you go up to like level 25-30 then stay there for a while until you learn how to play properly then eventually go up to levels 35-40 which meant you're pretty good.
In SC2 there's was decent ranking system as well. You play constantly and you see how you go up the ladder, eventually you get transferred from bronze to silver then to gold then to plat etc.
Overall you play and you see the results. Like before I was lvl 20 in WC3 or in bronze SC2 and now after a year I'm in plat or diamond, or have 40 lvl battle.net. That boosts your confidence and you see that you are actually making some progress, you improve.
I feel like SC:R battle.net does not have this at all. I started playing a year ago (never played BW before). I play almost every day and my MMR stays the same all the time. When I just started it was around 1100-1500 going up and down like crazy. Having over 1000 games played it's still the same. MMR goes around the same range, never goes higher than 1500. Most of the time around 1250-1400 range. I face the same opponents. I win the same people and lose to the same guys. It's like there's a wall you hit every time you go closer to 1500. Something happens around this MMR (maybe smurfs of pros) and you drop down with like 15-20 loses in a row sometimes.
I feel that (subjectively) no matter how long you play you just stay exactly where you were all the time. I don't see any results or any progress. It's hard to say even by past replays whether I played worse or not. I wonder if it's possible to improve eventually over the years without devoting to the game 8-10 hrs a day like Koreans do. It's very frustrating..
I completely understand your point. And I think you are getting fed information that is irrelevant and/or nothing to do with what you're asking. I along with many others are facing similar situations as you and the answer is simple. It really comes down to 2 points of interest, 1 of which KogeT hit on the head (kudos to KogeT).
Point 1: As KogeT mentioned, there are constantly new names and smurfs being created. So it doesn't matter what your MMR is. Depending on the location and time you play, you may very well end up playing 2K++ MMR people on smurf on new name over and over (until they achieve too many points to match with you anymore). The solution to this is simple...people should only be allowed to have one name for laddering. People will start bitching and whining about "what if I need to practice blah blah blah"....then just play a melee game. Host a "1v1 zerg only" or something. You don't NEED to ladder. Laddering is about finding good 1;1 games and trying to see your rank and how far up the totem pole you can move. Me for example, I've gotten slammed by Nyoken about 8 times in 30 games under various accounts of his. That should literally never happen. I should never even be considered in the same stratosphere. So this is point 1 about why it happens. Whoever is powerbombing you over and over is just some really good player who made a new name for any number of reasons.
Point 2: The second point is about Blizzard itself. They fucked up the ladder system big time. People are gonna cry and bitch and moan here too but basically I don't care. I use myself an example. When the ladder system was still fresh, I was playing ALL kinds of people from all over the world. This was awesome. I got to play people of all different skill levels. I was playing mostly competative games with a few lopsided ones. Now, with whatever "fix" (fix my ass) blizzard did, it takes forever to match me. And when I do, I play the same 10 people over and over. I either stomp them or they stomp me. It is not enjoyable and I hover around the same MMR...moving up and down quickly, for no reason. The solution to this is simple; go back to how it was or improve it to be similar to how it was, minus the lag.
So this is basically the correct answer. You can ignore everything else in the thread. I just saved you 2 hours of your time.
You're welcome.
Yeah, isnt it odd that you played everyone when everyone was in the same MMR? What do you want, a MMR reset every month?
Clearly you understood 0% of what I said. I didn't say it had anything to do with the MMR. I said the way blizzard "fixed" the lag issue is by not allowing me to play besides anyone near me and at similar MMR. Which causes me to play the same 6 people over and over. That, coupled with people constantly making new names, means I am either playing the same person over and over or a pro over and over. Every game is lopsided; one way or the other.
Next time you want to use sarcasm to illustrate your point and attempt to offend me, at least make sure you read what I wrote and that what you wrote makes sense....which it doesn't.
You want to have a battle of wits but you're showing up unarmed....
GG
On July 19 2018 02:28 Dazed. wrote:
On July 19 2018 01:46 10dla wrote:
On July 18 2018 16:54 Drake wrote: i play a few games on my account ( i play mainly nighttime) and then i sit there with 1800-1900mrr and X-0 wins and i dont find any more games ... i sit and sit and it finds no games for me ... so i play with next account cause i not wannna wait 30 minutes for game ...
i think its a matchmaking problem first, people not wanna wait 30 minute for a game
How is that a Matchmaking problem? You can find games on new accounts. And its Global after all. The people on your mmr are simply not there. And when people are allowed to reroll every time they simply pour gasoline into the problem
It's not global. It's pretty obviously a match making problem: He doesnt get matched against players when he ques in the match maker. Get that? And how are we supposed to take you seriously when you dont even know the global match maker isnt global?
Two personal attacks. Abrasive and aggressive. How do i report them? Tested 5 games in a row: Peru, Brasil, 2 USA (Long Island) and Russia. 2-5 minute waiting. I live in mid europe. Both USA had 24 TR, Russia 20, South America some terrible latency. Now that asshole says that matchmaking isnt global. What? Both of them are blatantly lying. How much further does it have to go without having terrible latency in every second game? Is this bullshit going on again that you can only say what people want to hear?
Alright, you have a better connection experience, and? I dont. Plenty of people dont, plenty of people wait in que for 30 minutes only to get a matchup they can sleep through and win, and then play the guy endlessly on repeat. Plenty of players have recorded videos of their epic que times, or +1 point wins, which is why so many people are paying to use VPN's.
And where did I insult you or anyone? I can clearly see where you called me an asshole, but my insult? Seems imaginary...
If you want to be matched globally, you have to make sure you have a good connection. This is how this peer to peer bullshit works. You cant have a shitty connection and make everyone else experience miserable. Why do you guys blame Matchmaking for that?
Already explained: I previously connected to others fine. Then they region locked me. Its inexplicable. Call it bad coding, I dont know. I'm not a technologically apt person. If i log into ladder its a genuine shock if i play more than one guy.
On July 19 2018 05:00 kaboombaby wrote: There is a difference. That difference is playing at 1300 and running into 1800 players vs playing at 1500 and having some ability to see it coming. People preying on the bottom vs preying on the middle is a pretty big difference. There's also a fairly large amount of room for improvement to this system.
The numbers themselves don't really matter. At 1300, getting smashed by a true 1500 would be hard to distinguish from getting smashed by an 1800, as has been noted many times in this thread so far. If I was a worse player, and my loss of over 100 points happened at 1500 rather than at 1800, I'd be at 1300 smashing the bottom of the skill floor too. My point was that while there are malicious users out there, not every story is such - but people at the bottom of the barrel never fail to equate every "strong" player at low/mid tier with a progamer smurf or something. The problem is that people at the bottom of the barrel lack perspective. People who have gotten past the midrange level of play have experienced every level of play before that - being a total noob, being terrible, being bad, being mediocre, then being middle-tier, then a little beyond that. Everyone who has ever gotten good at the game has gone through the same things you are complaining about.
On July 19 2018 05:00 kaboombaby wrote: I could have hosted on ICCUP and avoided the smurf I can see coming a mile away. It was different actually. How quickly we forget.
That's true. My point was that the behavior was the same, not that you had less options for avoiding it.
On July 19 2018 05:00 kaboombaby wrote: I don't know why certain people in the community cry "get the fuck out" so readily. Clearly I'm still playing the game. "There is no REASONABLE way to prevent this" does not indicate that nothing can be done whatsoever. Seems like such a lazy defeatist approach to take towards system design. In a space with evolving tech/systems we're just going to throw our hands up because you think it must be so. So much to say about laziness from new players yet so much intellectual laziness when it comes to potential improvements to a bare-bones antiquated ladder.
I'm providing my feedback. If your inclination is to ignore it entirely in favor of waxing on about how entitled I am then that's your prerogative.
As I said in my response, I didn't mean YOU, kaboombaby, specifically. I said it as a general "you." If the game is too tough, if getting crushed is something you take to heart, and if you're not used to working hard to get good at a game, then this game is not for "you," plain and simple. (EDIT: at least not 1v1 ladder, you can still UMS fastest and 3v3 hunt)
It is much easier to change your individual mentality than it is to stop some anonymous trolls who grief lower tier players. The answer is within you, not within changing the system. As I said above, EVERY player who has gotten above 1500 had to get crushed hundreds of times by superior and sometimes far superior players. It's a fact of the game, a fact of the skill level and disparity. Again, if a few trolls are enough to ruin the experience for "you," then "you" have already lost.
You try to defend noobie laziness (which I never asserted) by attacking veteran intellectual laziness (?), which is a fallacious argument to begin with, but more importantly it's wrong. It's hilarious to see players who are at 1300 MMR and below put their foot down and tell people who have played for years that "this is the way it is and your interpretation is wrong," when we had to go through the SAME thing but unlike you we made it to the other side of the admittedly low hurdle. Yea, sure, you could SOMETIMES sniff out smurfs on ICCup and ban them, but that means you were already coddling your ego by checking every person who joined your game to make sure they weren't better than you? You were proactively making sure you never had to get seriously challenged and pushed to improve? That's laziness, or vulnerability I guess. That's why some people never got anywhere, because they were too afraid to lose and get outclassed to improve.
What is your feedback, exactly? That griefers are bad and the community has some poopyheads in it? I haven't seen any constructive suggestions from you about how to approach this "fairly large amount of room for improvement."
Here are the things that I think might help:
1. One account can have 3 different MMRs, one for each race. 2. Being able to race-pick (PvT, PvP, TvZ). 3. More frequent seasons.
Here are things you probably want but are unreasonable:
1. 1 Ladder account per CD key. 2. Some sort of investigative team that bans people who grief or appear to grief.
I think this thread has devolved into people arguing apples and oranges. On the one hand it's counterproductive and harmful to your personal growth as a player to give up personal accountability for stagnation and blame the ladder system for all your statecraft woes, but I also think that not acknowledging that these issues affect peoples experiences is willfully ignorant. That being said, being trapped at any mmr is 100% on the player and the onus is on you to improve your mmr. Additionally I think for anybody who isn't a progamer, obsessing over your mmr vs your own perceived skill level is pointless.
While I do think it's fair to say there's tons of problems with the ladder system (although I agree with posts that say it's your fault for being "stuck"), something underappreciated about this game that I think alleviates the issue is just how much improvement you can do in single player, without having to worry about the ladder at all.
Seriously, if ladder is getting you down, go grind out some builds in single player vs. AI, especially if you're in that 1400-1550 range or lower!
Seriously, if ladder is getting you down, go grind out some builds in single player vs. AI, especially if you're in that 1400-1550 range or lower!
Great advice but it doesn't help much if you queue into people 900mmr above you, (which happened to me today) Getting super uneven matches is a waste of time for both parts imo.
Seriously, if ladder is getting you down, go grind out some builds in single player vs. AI, especially if you're in that 1400-1550 range or lower!
Great advice but it doesn't help much if you queue into people 900mmr above you, (which happened to me today) Getting super uneven matches is a waste of time for both parts imo.
As someone who got repeatedly smashed in arena shooters for a while, especially in ones with a low population and high volume of veteran players, typically getting smashed was the only way to play. I would spend 40% of my time dead in the game, instead of actually being able to play. However, it was trial by fire that allowed me to quickly gain experience and become better at the game, and personally I feel I was better off for it.
Similarly, I would always want to play against better players in brood war, no matter how far apart our game play is. I agree with the poster you quoted that if you feel like your execution is behind, then single player is a great way to refine that, before jumping back in and getting smashed. It doesn't matter too much who you play, it just matters that you try your best and improve at all times, regardless of how much better your opponent is.
People Who complaint about skillz being to much apart are people Who want to be able to Win . Pratice is not the main concern for them imo. But rather a close game us what they want.
On July 19 2018 05:00 kaboombaby wrote: I don't know why certain people in the community cry "get the fuck out" so readily.
Get used to it. You are writing in a BW forum, there is not much else to expect. If you want cuddles go play another more casual game.
That's a pretty terrible attitude to have.
There are plenty of players out there that want to help others improve because when others improve, we strive to get improve ourselves.
There shouldn't be an expectation of "It's BW so GTFO". People have been playing chess for hundreds of years and yet down the road from me you can go and learn chess rather than "Chess is for hardcore nerds gtfo" They invite anyone and everyone to play and learn.
In the end, it doesn't matter about your skill level or your MMR or your league, there's nothing wrong with being below 1500mmr.
Play the game, have fun and enjoy yourself and improve together.
Find a community. Perhaps, join the CPL league -- there's pretty good coaches there who can help guide you and do replay analysis directly with you.
The "community" aspect of that league is huge. I'm friends with many of the CPL folks who are ranging from 1300-1800 (right in your range). They all practice together and help each other improve.
I would suggest you look into a league like this. I've seen, first hand, these guys growing from 1300 to 1400 to 1500 and so on. Some of them, slowly, but steadily, are in the 1700 range nowadays and still improving.
Also, just forget about MMR for a moment. If you find a community like this and just practice with similar folks, you will improve (as long as you put in the work and do analysis). Also, you'll have fun in the process. If I recall, a lot of these guys just did private practice/learning sessions, and none of them laddered for months and months. The next time they went to ladder, they cruised through 1500 and were able to see the fruits of their labor. Another key piece is, the league sets up you up against other opponents in team matches, so you're incentivized to improve and be motivated.
I highly advise this route. And if a "big" community like this isn't your cup of tea, that's fine, but I would still say you should find someone who can help you with analysis/build orders/etc.
My opinion may not be perceived well by some others in this thread but I do not like people who play 15 games off a 1500 account to get their 15-0, 14-1 record just to reset and do it all over. I honestly think those people have some sort of superiority complex issue, it will also never improve you as a player and is overall just a scummy way to play the ladder.
On the other hand, many people here are crying about not advancing on the ladder due to smurfs and what not. Which I do get but if you’re playing ladder which is meant to be competitive and if you’re trying to improve your sc abilities, isn’t it kind of nice to play someone higher than your skill to get a better grasp on what strategies you are weak against and this way you can view replays of “smurfs” beating you and try to improve your game.
I remember Jaedong saying in an interview once he became an official pro that he would get owned like 1-12 in practice games but he honestly enjoyed it because he felt this way was the best way to view his mistakes more clearly and improve his game
On July 19 2018 05:00 kaboombaby wrote: I don't know why certain people in the community cry "get the fuck out" so readily.
Get used to it. You are writing in a BW forum, there is not much else to expect. If you want cuddles go play another more casual game.
That's a pretty terrible attitude to have.
There are plenty of players out there that want to help others improve because when others improve, we strive to get improve ourselves.
There shouldn't be an expectation of "It's BW so GTFO". People have been playing chess for hundreds of years and yet down the road from me you can go and learn chess rather than "Chess is for hardcore nerds gtfo" They invite anyone and everyone to play and learn.
In the end, it doesn't matter about your skill level or your MMR or your league, there's nothing wrong with being below 1500mmr.
Play the game, have fun and enjoy yourself and improve together.
Generally my attitude towards learning BW is playing against slightly better opponents. You want a fighting chance but you "want" to be punished for your mistakes to learn from them.
However this is generally not the advice I see in this forum. Everyone here is basically just telling newcomers to "git gud or GTFO" and that it is the only way to play and that everybody went through that, so new players should too.
Should is a stupid way to put it. We’ve complained about the inadequate match maker but failing a change the only answer that anyone COULD give is deal with losses or don’t deal with them. At bottom this thread only exists to give the fragile amongst us a chance to pout and stomp their feet... or be given practical advice on how to improve, which leads to arguments with the aforementioned fragiles.
EPT
![[image loading]](https://imgur.com/a/7OzzStX)
How to practice
