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On December 15 2017 04:20 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 04:18 mishimaBeef wrote:
what is the harm for letting him stream? the disagreement to let him make money from it?
here is the potential benefit for letting him stream: more high level skill for viewing By high level, you mean Britney level of skill, sure.
so called "pros" get beaten pretty often imo by off-race opponents... so...
just like 2 days ago larva absolutely demolished some zerg with terran... and finished two games vs protoss in very short time...
and overall the level of play i see isn't that impressive on streams, except probably for flash who seems to take his play pretty seriously in comparison
also that doesn't answer my question...
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On December 15 2017 04:23 james1024 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 04:20 jinjin5000 wrote:On December 15 2017 04:18 mishimaBeef wrote:
what is the harm for letting him stream? the disagreement to let him make money from it?
here is the potential benefit for letting him stream: more high level skill for viewing By high level, you mean Britney level of skill, sure. We all lose some games yo, savior is really talented and very creative, i'm not zerg anymore but it's fun to watch because he has sucha slow apm, but controls zerg so well... at times...
Like when was the last time you've seen him play? 2013? Since we're imagining that Savior magically is allowed to play BW on stream again, he will never be competitive, I'm thinking he might be on the level of Lx atm.
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On December 15 2017 04:04 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 03:57 ReachTheSky wrote:On December 15 2017 03:51 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On December 15 2017 03:27 ArvickHero wrote:
what is this young guy bullshit excuse
He was 23. You could be almost done with a masters degree at that age. When I was 23 I never felt like my age was an excuse for anything stupid or malicious. did u live in a team house since u were a kid without parents playing full time games to a corporation ? The guy was well compensated when he was playing. Savior made a choice to play games for a corporation. Stop acting as if he is a victim. compesate to what ? he was part of the GO team in the wcg2005,check the documentary... he is not a victim,i want to make clear that most of these progamers didnt live a normal life like most of the people here complaining in the fórums. fórum Warriors...
Ah yes! I'm a forum warrior for telling the facts! You are cherry picking a very small portion of data in an effort to justify him as a victim in order to gain sympathy out of fellow forum lurkers/posters. Just stop it. He was on a pro team with a salary that allowed him to live a comfortable life. He got greedy, wanted more and did very UNETHICAL things to earn extra money which resulted in the downfall of the korean bw scene.
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yeah well if streaming was a thing back then maybe he would have done that instead of the UNETHICAL thing ... the advent of streaming was a pretty big deal... something to consider
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On December 15 2017 03:15 RCCar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 03:02 L_Master wrote:On December 15 2017 02:28 RCCar wrote:On December 15 2017 02:13 Dazed. wrote:
The fact is: Savior took money almost a decade ago, when he was closer to being a kid than a man, and it was a non violent crime. He did it within a social context where, A, he went into a niche industry that really doesnt earn much but is inundated with the mob, and B, a society that pays a lot of importance to age and education, and he had deferred both (in a sense) in order to play video games. Right? So a desperate situation, and he fucked up. The fact that anyone is even considering not forgiving him, and at the very least just leaving him the fuck alone, is really sad. Its a sad reflection on humanity, and its a sad reflection on the character of the people who do it. Anyone who doesnt understand forgiveness, or change, is a child.
I'm serious. Look inside yourself, and ask what the fuck it is your doing? Desperate? Desperate? DESPERATE? Oh please tell that to the countless professional gamers that were training 10+ hours a day just to get on stage. Please tell them that the reason for their dream and life's career being crushed was because the one of the most successful players of all time was "desperate" Please tell that to DarkElf, who didn't know what matchfixing was, manipulated into losing his games through peer pressure by Savior (and didn't get paid btw) what the fuck are you doing, jerking off to that "I'm a good guy" feel train? Yea. This attitude is...well I can't relate. It's incredibly unmerited if you think Savior's apology is sincere. Even if you don't though, it's still overkill. Dude made some bad decisions, fucked up hard and screwed many people over in the process. These are all very bad things, and that's an understatement. That said, the guy was barely out of his teens and pressured by people significantly more powerful than him. That has to factor into the decision. What he did was terrible, but it's also not some unforgivable action like raping someone or a cold blooded murder. Those are things for which I would not even forgive a 15 year old. Matchfixing is not one of those things. Young men have done stupid, borderline evil shit before, whether that's stealing, assaulting someone, harassment, etc. Many of them have gone on to recognize what they did was terrible, reform themselves, and move on to being good productive citizens. Good husbands, good fathers. Many don't, but people absolutely can change. We are always aware of their past, but recognize that who someone was ten, twenty, or fifty years ago is not a reflection of who they are today. One thing I will say is that Savior should never be allowed to play a tournament again. In that sense, it's an unforgivable crime. I'd put that in the same category as doping, do it once and it should be a perma ban from competitive play. What we are doing with Savior is trying to say not only can he not play tournaments, but he can't play a game he enjoys and share it with people. Do we have a problem is a great, banned athlete makes youtube videos about how to be better at their sport? Nope. Lance was close to destroying cycling, and he is rightfully banned from all competitive sports. Nobody has a problem if he still wants to ride his bike, interact with fans, do podcasts discussing the Tour de France or other races, or upload pictures of himself riding to instagram or strava. The same applies to any other athletes. Savior should not be allowed back around competitive BW in any way. He should absolutely be allowed to play BW and share BW content. Those are two VERY different things. Literally kills off the scene, then tries to make money off of it, and people are supposed to love it... make sense....?
I'm not sure what this means, no one outside of some hardcore fanboys are suggesting we should just love Savior, kiss and make up like nothing happened.
On December 15 2017 03:15 RCCar wrote:
Savior has never displayed sincerity.
His multiple apologies were always half hearted at best, and he prevented anyone from ever bringing his matchfixing scandal up, to the point where his list of banned words grew over 114 words because he would get triggered at everything remotely related to matchfixing.
Pitbull's tchu tchu cha was even banned because it sounded too much like the korean pronunciation of matchfix.
If you are truly apologetic for matchfixing, you would accept you did a wrong, understand, and let people make their decisions, like people on TL tell others to do.
Unfortunately, Savior does not want to accept he did a wrong and expects everyone to love him the instant he makes an apology. How is anyone (outside of TL i guess) supposed to believe he is sincere? Especially when his most recent stream, about a year and a half ago, still showed him unapologetic to his fans and bragging about his uber work?
Could well be. Savior has never seemed like a likeable guy. Reminds me in a ton of ways of Lance Armstrong. Arrogant prick in real life who isn't sorry about what he did at all. I don't know him well enough to actually call Savior that, but it's the vibe I get from the snippets that come through.
On December 15 2017 03:15 RCCar wrote:
Thankfully, Savior is already banned from streaming KeSPA sanctioned games on all the major platforms. Since people from Afreeca say they already reached out to him about the games he couldn't play, I personally don't really care what he does on stream. Maybe he can go back into the totally young and naiive Savior who made mistakes and tell his viewers to fuck off, that his uber driving makes more money. Oh wait- that was in 2016.
6 years didn't make a difference- how many more chances do people have to give him before he finally realizes what he's done?
How do you expect us to believe that he is being sincere with that "on your knees" type deal? Everyone does it when they try to sound sorry. Savior just finally realized that after 7 years of trial and error.
I'm not arguing or suggesting that anyone believe Saviors apology, or that he has changed.
I'm DEFINITELY NOT suggesting he be given additional chances. I've already said he should be banned from competition permanently. In that regard there is no forgiveness.
He should not be allowed to play in ASLs, or any other formal BW tournament. Ever.
That said, that has no bearing on his streaming. We don't treat any other athlete, personal, or celebrity like that. There is no "oh hey Lance, you asshole doper, you can't ever ride your bike again or interact with other cyclists". If people want to pay Lance to ride with them, or to put out content, they should be able to.
It's that side of it that is crazy to me. If this was a normal standard that we held other people to it would perhaps be reasonable, but it's not consistent with the treatment any other athlete in this position has ever been dealt. Bans from competition are standard and accepted, attempts to completely block the athlete from ever participating in the sport in any fashion is utterly unhead of.
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On an unrelated note, I don't understand why people want to watch Savior. I could see why they might be interested in his thoughts on the pro scene or other players, but watching him play Starcraft? He's an ancient history great that is now, being generous, decidedly mediocre at the pro level.
What's the draw there?
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On December 15 2017 04:33 mishimaBeef wrote:
yeah well if streaming was a thing back then maybe he would have done that instead of the UNETHICAL thing ... the advent of streaming was a pretty big deal... something to consider
Yes, I am certainly considering what you have said... And I can't figure out wtf it has to do with anything.
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Literally going around in circles.
L Master made some of the best points I think from a pro savior streaming scbw standpoint.
I'll attempt to address things here.
-> Savior was desperate for money
1. Savior wasn't desperate for money. He joined a conglomerate team in 2006 making 6 figure salary. I'm pretty sure it went up to 200~300k at his peak. He did get paid less as his form started falling off but considering that YellOw in his later days still made 6 figure salary... I don't think he would have gotten any less.
-> But what about after BW? What could he do?
2. Savior had a very good transition awaiting him in the area of eSports. He could have been a coach, worked for CJ as a brand, heck, streaming was around in 2009 and I doubt Savior would have had no viewers. BoxeR wanted Savior to continue the scene after him and placed trust in the man.
-> He was young, he couldn't have foreseen it.
3. He was 23. Aside from the 1 guy who thinks that you can't make rational decisions until 25, he matchfixed, then pushed in many younger gamers to do the same thing. He didn't pay them what he said he would either.
-> Why are we judging strangers here? He has redeeming qualities.
4. Skipping past the part where "redeeming qualities" are also technically judging strangers, professional gamers who were close to him expressed distaste. Earlier on this thread, (pg 3 I think), I translated what Iris said about Savior's personality and how despicable it was. I don't think he has the best personality.
-> Its been so long since he matchfixed- surely he has repented by now.
5. Savior has streamed many times before apologizing, Unfortunately, instead of acknowledging his "mistake", he has downplayed his errors and went so far as to ban any and all mentions relating to matchfixing. His list of banned words were over 100 including sports teams that matchfixed like Juventus. Considering how Hwasin apologized properly and took callouts and questions about matchfixing in stride during his stream, and was still discovered insincere, I think there is no doubt that Savior is not sincere at all.
-> Let savior stream, its just streaming.
6. Savior has streamed in 2016, showing off his name brand clothing on stream, and hanging with cam streamers. He quit soon. He is completely free to stream, just not certain games such as BW, SC2, OW, and LoL. The reason this thread is going through debate at all is because people want him to stream Starcraft.
-> He can play high quality games, we need every streamer.
7. Savior, even back in 2013, showed miserable form. I doubt that he can show competitive games 4 years later. Also, streamers already showed disgust at being asked to play against him- namely Best who refused 1000 dollars worth of donations to play against him in the future.
-> What would be the problem with him streaming/ coming into mainstream starcraft?
8. Starcraft in the Korean scene, is just recently coming into popularity again, with OGN even considering a starcraft league. (They haven't said anything about it since, but haven't retracted their statement officially so still praying). For potential sponsors, former matchfixers such as Savior playing the game, and the community endorsing such actions, will more than likely harm their image sponsoring. In Korea, public opinion is overwhelmingly negative. For Starcraft to get big sponsors again, the scene has to show they do not condone illegal/ dangerous actions. Streamers like Larva or Best leaving Terror as they strive for a more mainstream audience would be one of the examples. I'm not a marketing major, so take these words with a grain of salt.
As for the community aspect of it, it is the morality issue that he is making money off of the scene that he has destroyed almost singlehandedly. Now that many former pros make money off of streaming, I think you can imagine the insult they would feel. Hwasin's incident was like this as well, and pros such as firebathero called him out on his hypocrisy.
-> But Savior needs money too.
9. Perhaps he can get it in a way that he doesn't further manipulate the scene he has already destroyed. He could have had an insane amount of money during his career but voluntarily kicked it all away.
-> Savior didn't make much during his BW Career.
10. back to 1.
P.S. Before we say something something korean scene, lets do some research on it first, ok?
I will be happy to translate articles as needed if you find something that thinks will help. Just PM me. comment on 빠따정 actually has me triggered atm.
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prefrontal cortex related to decision making shown to fully develop at 30 (according to brain book from library), though quick internet search shows 25, actually mixed results on a quick web search
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On December 15 2017 05:05 mishimaBeef wrote:
prefrontal cortex related to decision making shown to fully develop at 30 (according to brain book from library), though quick internet search shows 25, actually mixed results on a quick web search
Yea fuck off about it both here and reddit. You are down to correcting grammar now
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On December 15 2017 04:26 mishimaBeef wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 04:20 jinjin5000 wrote:On December 15 2017 04:18 mishimaBeef wrote:
what is the harm for letting him stream? the disagreement to let him make money from it?
here is the potential benefit for letting him stream: more high level skill for viewing By high level, you mean Britney level of skill, sure. so called "pros" get beaten pretty often imo by off-race opponents... so... just like 2 days ago larva absolutely demolished some zerg with terran... and finished two games vs protoss in very short time... and overall the level of play i see isn't that impressive on streams, except probably for flash who seems to take his play pretty seriously in comparison also that doesn't answer my question...
Watching sAviOr's streams for high Brood War skill is like going to Baskin-Robbins for the nutritional value. There are much better options if it is pure skill that you are after, and expecting everybody (tournament organizers, other streamers, and the viewers) to be just fine and just be chill with sAviOr returning to the Brood War scene is naive beyond words. It is going to create controversy and drama, and that is the only thing that is guaranteed should he return to streaming Brood War content. I don't know whether you are ignorant or optimistic by expecting great Brood War skills from sAviOr especially considering his form in recent years.
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On December 15 2017 05:18 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 05:05 mishimaBeef wrote:
prefrontal cortex related to decision making shown to fully develop at 30 (according to brain book from library), though quick internet search shows 25, actually mixed results on a quick web search Yea fuck off about it both here and reddit. You are down to correcting grammar now
lol? what's this about reddit?
i just posted a scientifically backed position in response to "1 guy thinks you can't make rational decisions until..."
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On December 15 2017 05:24 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 04:26 mishimaBeef wrote:On December 15 2017 04:20 jinjin5000 wrote:On December 15 2017 04:18 mishimaBeef wrote:
what is the harm for letting him stream? the disagreement to let him make money from it?
here is the potential benefit for letting him stream: more high level skill for viewing By high level, you mean Britney level of skill, sure. so called "pros" get beaten pretty often imo by off-race opponents... so... just like 2 days ago larva absolutely demolished some zerg with terran... and finished two games vs protoss in very short time... and overall the level of play i see isn't that impressive on streams, except probably for flash who seems to take his play pretty seriously in comparison also that doesn't answer my question... Watching sAviOr's streams for high Brood War skill is like going to Baskin-Robbins for the nutritional value. There are much better options if it is pure skill that you are after, and expecting everybody (tournament organizers, other streamers, and the viewers) to be just fine and just be chill with sAviOr returning to the Brood War scene is naive beyond words. It is going to create controversy and drama, and that is the only thing that is guaranteed should he return to streaming Brood War content. I don't know whether you are ignorant or optimistic by expecting great Brood War skills from sAviOr especially considering his form in recent years.
what? who said anything about tournament organizers?
so your point is that something that is potentially capable of creating drama should be disallowed?
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did he admit to match-fixing? last I read, he only spoke about introducing others to these circles and acting as a broker
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I have pirated tens of thousands of dollars in music, movies, PPVs over the years and each of those can get me up to five years of jail time and fines up to $250,000. I dont bat an eye over it. I dont think about the consequences of getting caught. I rationalize that most people are doing it, and that those im stealing from are already rich, while Im barely scraping by. I can very easily see myself doing something Savior did if I was in his position. We all have our own moral compass. Savior did something we as a society deemed illegal and he paid the price that the law deemed necessary. Now if your the type of person who does not want to give him a second chance, but see his punishment continued and his ability to earn a living diminished, all while you stream the latest movie or tv show tonight then shame on you.
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The only reason he is here begging is because he needs more money but never developed any skills outside of Brood War and corrupt practices. I have no sympathy for him in that regard.
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On December 15 2017 05:33 mishimaBeef wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 05:24 Letmelose wrote:On December 15 2017 04:26 mishimaBeef wrote:On December 15 2017 04:20 jinjin5000 wrote:On December 15 2017 04:18 mishimaBeef wrote:
what is the harm for letting him stream? the disagreement to let him make money from it?
here is the potential benefit for letting him stream: more high level skill for viewing By high level, you mean Britney level of skill, sure. so called "pros" get beaten pretty often imo by off-race opponents... so... just like 2 days ago larva absolutely demolished some zerg with terran... and finished two games vs protoss in very short time... and overall the level of play i see isn't that impressive on streams, except probably for flash who seems to take his play pretty seriously in comparison also that doesn't answer my question... Watching sAviOr's streams for high Brood War skill is like going to Baskin-Robbins for the nutritional value. There are much better options if it is pure skill that you are after, and expecting everybody (tournament organizers, other streamers, and the viewers) to be just fine and just be chill with sAviOr returning to the Brood War scene is naive beyond words. It is going to create controversy and drama, and that is the only thing that is guaranteed should he return to streaming Brood War content. I don't know whether you are ignorant or optimistic by expecting great Brood War skills from sAviOr especially considering his form in recent years. what? who said anything about tournament organizers? so your point is that something that is potentially capable of creating drama should be disallowed?
It's not a potential outcome. It is guaranteed. It is the only thing that sAviOr has brought to the scene since he stopped being a professional. Pretending that he has brought good Brood War content from a sheer skill perspective is only possible if you have a flawed metric for what constitutes skill, or have not been watching Brood War content in recent years. That is my point.
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10387 Posts
On December 15 2017 04:04 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 03:57 ReachTheSky wrote:On December 15 2017 03:51 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On December 15 2017 03:27 ArvickHero wrote:
what is this young guy bullshit excuse
He was 23. You could be almost done with a masters degree at that age. When I was 23 I never felt like my age was an excuse for anything stupid or malicious. did u live in a team house since u were a kid without parents playing full time games to a corporation ? The guy was well compensated when he was playing. Savior made a choice to play games for a corporation. Stop acting as if he is a victim. compesate to what ? he was part of the GO team in the wcg2005,check the documentary... he is not a victim,i want to make clear that most of these progamers didnt live a normal life like most of the people here complaining in the fórums. fórum Warriors...
Yet you look at the majority of the other progamers who went through the same process, and didn't do the same? You can make up all the excuses you want, but let's call a spade a fuckin spade; Savior was greedy and fucked up hard, and poisoned the well for everyone. His mere presence is poisoning the well once again. You can love Savior all you like, but please don't try to make up bullshit excuses to justify his actions.
Perhaps there's a cultural divide at work here. In the west, we don't necessarily think the actions of the individual reflect on the whole of an organization. In Korea, there is a much stronger association between the two. Ever heard of that dumb cliche "u dishonor your family, now you must kill yourself"? Well it's unfortunately true to some extent. That's why his actions wrecked the scene so hard, and why people in the scene are trying their best to reject him. He poisoned the well once, and his mere association is poisoning the well again for any outsiders looking in. There's no way he doesn't recognize that fact, but he just doesn't give a fuck because all he wants is $$$$$ for himself.
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On December 15 2017 01:02 Alpha-NP- wrote:
I'm willing to give Savior a second chance. The man influenced the Zerg metagame. For a long time he was the best Zerg. I once heard a twitch streamer say "we all cheated at one time or another".
A big segment of people on this forum are snowflakes and social justice warriors. The guy apologized immensely. It's time to forgive. A vocal minority of snowflakes will come in here whining but just look at the pool for the silent majority that thinks he should be given a second chance.
Apparently austere upholding of a punishment is now something snowflakes do. The widespread antithetical usage of words among social injustice warriors is amazing. Also, fuck savior.
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The guy barely apologized after his matchfixing story broke out (his excuse was that he was only a broker, as if that makes it all better), streamed BW while the last Starleague was on, and banned just about anyone who dared to talk about his matchfixing.
Let's not forget Hwasin, who acted like a humble and kind person who seemingly accepted his mistakes. In a few short months after his interview on teamliquid he reverted to trying to host a tournament of his own and banning people who criticized him.
People who actually felt regret, like fake Yellow, apologized publicly and left the scene forever. Savior on the other hand was stubbornly profiting from BW via streaming and foreign tournaments after he ruined Starcraft 16x speed when it was dying at 2x speed, destroying jobs and perception of e-sports.
So maybe it's possible Savior changed. But it seems more likely he's pulling a Hwasin.
Also, financial interest is motivating Best? What? He even posted a video where he was asked if he's ever play with Savior if someone handed him a cold million and he said no.
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EPT
