Savior is becoming an adult and owning up to what he did. That's the whole purpose of learning from your punishment. It's unfortunate he couldn't find the right actions and words sooner.
Savior was the reason i started playing SC and zerg. I can't forgive what he's done. With that said, i don't think there is anything wrong with him streaming. I don't think he should ever be allowed to participate in any sc tournament- he's lost that privilege.
Why is savior getting this unfair treatment when there have been other progamers who have conspired to matchfixing but havn't suffered any consequences.
On December 15 2017 00:53 ICanFlyLow wrote: Why is savior getting this unfair treatment when there have been other progamers who have conspired to matchfixing but havn't suffered the same consequences even when caught doing so.
sAviOr was the first big name player to get caught, he hurt the image of the game and the industry because of his star status. A ton of people in the KR BW/esports scene lost their livelihoods because of him.. What he did had a massive impact on the people around him, it isn't up to us decide whether or not he should be forgiven.
On December 15 2017 00:53 ICanFlyLow wrote: Why is savior getting this unfair treatment when there have been other progamers who have conspired to matchfixing but havn't suffered any consequences.
Consequences[edit] In October 2010, aside from being banned the players received the following fines and penalties:
go.go - 11 million won Hwasin - 11 million won Luxury - 12.5 million won type-b - 11.5 million won Upmagic - 6.5 million won Justin - 3 million won, 120 hours community service, 40 hour gambling treatment program, 3 year probation (on an 18 month sentence). YellOw(ArnC) - 2 million won [10] sAviOr - 120 hours community service, 2 year probation (on a 12 month sentence). [11] By.1st - 40 hour gambling treatment program, 1 year probation (on a 6 month sentence). ShinHwA - 40 hour gambling treatment program, 1 year probation (on a 6 month sentence).
I'm willing to give Savior a second chance. The man influenced the Zerg metagame. For a long time he was the best Zerg. I once heard a twitch streamer say "we all cheated at one time or another".
A big segment of people on this forum are snowflakes and social justice warriors. The guy apologized immensely. It's time to forgive. A vocal minority of snowflakes will come in here whining but just look at the pool for the silent majority that thinks he should be given a second chance.
of all the matchfixers he had the most money and the most support from his team, his fans and sponsor. he threw all of that in the trash while dragging others into the hole as the ringleader.
his coach tearfully and continually denied all allegations when the story broke out, and eventually lost his job over the saga.
other players came out and publically apologized and showed remorse
yet throughout all of these regrets and apologies, savior didn't apologize or admit wrongdoing; when he finally did it was a halfassed one that didn't communicate any responsibility over what he did.
he's a little piece of shit who spent all the balloons he siphoned from his fans through afreecatv on luxury products; dude didn't even go to his military service by claiming some bullshit eye injury or whatever
everyone who's like "let bygones be bygones" seriously need to stfu not because it's a bad sentiment, but because it's wasted on this piece of trash.
he apologizes now that he's flat broke and the money's drying up? yeah okay. bitch
On December 15 2017 01:08 CHEONSOYUN wrote: savior is a little bitch.
of all the matchfixers he had the most money and the most support from his team, his fans and sponsor. he threw all of that in the trash while dragging others into the hole as the ringleader.
his coach tearfully and continually denied all allegations when the story broke out, and eventually lost his job over the saga.
other players came out and publically apologized and showed remorse
yet throughout all of these regrets and apologies, savior didn't apologize or admit wrongdoing; when he finally did it was a halfassed one that didn't communicate any responsibility over what he did.
he's a little piece of shit who spent all the balloons he siphoned from his fans through afreecatv on luxury products; dude didn't even go to his military service by claiming some bullshit eye injury or whatever
everyone who's like "let bygones be bygones" seriously need to stfu not because it's a bad sentiment, but because it's wasted on this piece of trash.
he apologizes now that he's flat broke and the money's drying up? yeah okay. bitch
I don't know who is worse - savior for actually doing what he did, or vicious, hateful people like you, who after 10 years of punishment are still able to get out there and flame him in every sentence, because someone lost a job 10 years ago. After reading your bitching I respect him much more than you.
There's a time to punish and a time to forgive. Only after having given at least a second chance would I think it's more alright to be more absolute in the punishment.
We'll have a harsh and heartless community if we never learn to forgive. Punishment should have the goal of reform, not simply to soothe one's anger. And he can never prove he's reformed if he's never given a proper chance.
10 years of milking his fans and showing no remorse for cheating and dragging younger players into an illegal betting ring. that isn't 10 years of punishment, it's 10 years of being a little fucker who clearly doesn't give a shit.
if you want a real apology go read hwasin's interview, who actually had to live with it and accept the consequences of what he had done.
Q: Then you moved to the military service, it wasn't that painful in the army right?
A: Actually quite the opposite. In boot camp since everyone was around the same age, everybody was aware of the matchfixing. Not only the seniors but even the officers would interrogate me and discipline me. Ofcourse there were some people who liked me as a person, they were the ones who got me through it. I tried to see it as that my life in the military was as difficult as everyone else's, and spent alot of time thinking. Why did I do this, I asked myself a thousand times "why".
Q: In those difficult times, what words made you feel the worst?
A: There are no BW leagues now, even today it just doesn't feel real to me. But the words that make me feel the worst are "The ball that was passed down by so many seniors was lost in an instant in the hands of people like you."Regardless of whether this is true, it was because of my instantaneous error and personal ignorance that caused these accusations, they make me feel very difficult.
Q: After retiring, what did you do?
A: I did everything after retiring. I even went to the hiring boards in labour markets, I did manual labour, worked in delivery, and laboured in some net-cafes, I also tried to work in a coffee shop as a cashier and made coffee. I really want to open a coffee shop, one where you make the coffee completely manually, even if it's very small. In that process to find a direction I met an executive in a company, and started working as a secretary. Now I try to learn from many different types of people that I meet.
savior has done none of that kind of contemplation or had to live with the consequences of his actions.
as a bonus you get to read a little bit of savior offering hwasin the money and instructions on how to throw the game.
don't waste your sympathy on someone who's clearly just looking for cash.
if he actually felt any real remorse he would have done this years ago, or you know, before his coach lost his job or when literally every other matchfixer apologized
On December 15 2017 00:53 ICanFlyLow wrote: Why is savior getting this unfair treatment when there have been other progamers who have conspired to matchfixing but havn't suffered the same consequences even when caught doing so.
sAviOr was the first big name player to get caught, he hurt the image of the game and the industry because of his star status. A ton of people in the KR BW/esports scene lost their livelihoods because of him.. What he did had a massive impact on the people around him, it isn't up to us decide whether or not he should be forgiven.
So assuming that forgiveness is something attainable, who gets to decide?
Almost all puzzle pieces are presented in this thread. Many of you need to get your head out of your ass... Savior isn't getting sentenced to death nor life in prison. For god sake!
I don't understand when people say things like "It's already 10 years... Let's finally forgive him...". sAviOr was a star like not many others. He had so much influence on the scene, the people and as we all saw even the jobs of so many people. I was really shocked that someone of his level was part of this whole scandal. He harmed the whole eSports community in a way not many others could have done it. And for what? Just for money. It's not like he was struggling to survive. He was already at the top and still wanted more. Saying his mother spent all his money and he was basically broke all the time? Really? And if I am still feeling like this over sAviOr's actions, then I cannot even imagine how most koreans feel about it.
Keep him out. He isn't welcome. He should NOT have the privilege of participating in/profiting off of a scene that he tainted and ruined the credibility of. Keep him out for good. We don't need this kind of trash in the scene.
I don't see why anyone would care if he streams, and if they do care, that's their problem. Competing in competitive bw events would be a more difficult question.
On December 15 2017 01:37 ReachTheSky wrote: Keep him out. He isn't welcome. He should NOT have the privilege of participating in/profiting off of a scene that he tainted and ruined the credibility of. Keep him out for good.
Exactly this. And although CHEONSOYUN is pretty...blunt, he makes some good points.
The poll in the OP isn't good by the way. Second option should be something like: "No, he shouldn't stream and/or profit off Brood War." "Staying away from Starcraft forever" is distinctly different and also the reason why I haven't voted.
Let the guy prove he's serious. He should contribute to the scene instead of merely milking his fans with donations. But why not let the guy apologize and do something for the community? He could do so many different things, like setting up leagues, commentating them, making tutorials, trying to forge a team of newcomers and train them.
The fact is: Savior took money almost a decade ago, when he was closer to being a kid than a man, and it was a non violent crime. He did it within a social context where, A, he went into a niche industry that really doesnt earn much but is inundated with the mob, and B, a society that pays a lot of importance to age and education, and he had deferred both (in a sense) in order to play video games. Right? So a desperate situation, and he fucked up. The fact that anyone is even considering not forgiving him, and at the very least just leaving him the fuck alone, is really sad. Its a sad reflection on humanity, and its a sad reflection on the character of the people who do it. Anyone who doesnt understand forgiveness, or change, is a child.
I'm serious. Look inside yourself, and ask what the fuck it is your doing?
2016: Turns on stream, streams cam shows- gets salty when not a lot of viewers come in and says he makes more money being an uber for rich people anyway.
2017: I'm so sorry for what I did I'm a humble guy now pls
Fanboys: laps it up.
Losing to the same strategy every time over 10 years smh
On December 15 2017 02:10 CoL_DarkstaR wrote: Let the guy prove he's serious. He should contribute to the scene instead of merely milking his fans with donations. But why not let the guy apologize and do something for the community? He could do so many different things, like setting up leagues, commentating them, making tutorials, trying to forge a team of newcomers and train them.
I actually think this would be really cool. I'd love to see some tutorials from Savior. Not to mention I agree with the premise of letting him prove he's serious about his apology. Like it or not, he was one of the best players to ever play the game. Having tutorials (that would hopefully eventually be translated) from him would be awesome.
I don't think that letting him stream would be such a horrible idea, but I don't think he should ever get to play competitively again.
On December 15 2017 02:13 Dazed. wrote: The fact is: Savior took money almost a decade ago, when he was closer to being a kid than a man, and it was a non violent crime. He did it within a social context where, A, he went into a niche industry that really doesnt earn much but is inundated with the mob, and B, a society that pays a lot of importance to age and education, and he had deferred both (in a sense) in order to play video games. Right? So a desperate situation, and he fucked up. The fact that anyone is even considering not forgiving him, and at the very least just leaving him the fuck alone, is really sad. Its a sad reflection on humanity, and its a sad reflection on the character of the people who do it. Anyone who doesnt understand forgiveness, or change, is a child.
I'm serious. Look inside yourself, and ask what the fuck it is your doing?
I think this is exactly the point. People talk about how sAviOr did this in his actual prime, but to my understanding he was already on the way down and probably panicked that in a way he could never keep up with the new generations of young players. The teamhouse environment we so often praise also led to this, since many players on these teams didn't really earn much (especially compared to nowaday's afreeca streams) besides the very few who were valuable for marketing and actualy won some tournament money. But the rest of these hundreds of players (especially B-teamers like Larva once explained) just lived in these team houses so they could have a bowl of rice and play Starcraft all day. They sacrificed so much and were under so much pressure i think it is very easy to see that they actually had no social competence after being in this training regime for such a long time. Combined with all the pressure of "having to make it" since there is really no exit plan for these Starcraft players. They gave up on education and regular jobs, so at some point they had to make money.
Again, this doesn't make what Savior did right, but if you read the post by Dazed i think it shows that the guy was just in a dire spot and did a stupid, greedy mistake. He well deserved his punishment but after all these years, what do you want savior to do? The guy has no education, is hated in so many contexts and is now really regretting what he did. If you say you can't forgive a child who did some stupid shit and now is willing to man up and apologize, what do you want him to do, kill himself?
@RCAR Or maybe theres more psychological complexity to a person than your black and white interpretations of his actions? Maybe in being rejected by all of society constantly, boasting about being an uber driver was an attempt at saving face? Whether saviors an asshole or not really is none of your business; hes a complete stranger to you. The only thing being requested of anyone here is not to take an active stance in ensuring he cant make money/or reintegrate back into a community, requires nothing of you. Not understanding, not clicking a mouse. But random guy ten years ago did something that endangered your hobby, so apparently thats a blood feud for the rest of your life.
No one saying shit like "He hasnt changed at all!" or "hes scum!" has ever lived a life worthy of note. You've never had someone close to you who was a scum bag, who had anger problems or alcoholism, but also redeeming qualities? You've never been in a spot in your life where you acted poorly and regretted it years later? No one who can condemn someone like this so casually and easily from both a physical and emotional distance could of ever been through any significant in life. Black and white thinking like this is for children. Grow up and spend less time condemning people you dont know.
On December 15 2017 02:13 Dazed. wrote: The fact is: Savior took money almost a decade ago, when he was closer to being a kid than a man, and it was a non violent crime. He did it within a social context where, A, he went into a niche industry that really doesnt earn much but is inundated with the mob, and B, a society that pays a lot of importance to age and education, and he had deferred both (in a sense) in order to play video games. Right? So a desperate situation, and he fucked up. The fact that anyone is even considering not forgiving him, and at the very least just leaving him the fuck alone, is really sad. Its a sad reflection on humanity, and its a sad reflection on the character of the people who do it. Anyone who doesnt understand forgiveness, or change, is a child.
I'm serious. Look inside yourself, and ask what the fuck it is your doing?
Desperate? Desperate? DESPERATE? Oh please tell that to the countless professional gamers that were training 10+ hours a day just to get on stage. Please tell them that the reason for their dream and life's career being crushed was because the one of the most successful players of all time was "desperate" Please tell that to DarkElf, who didn't know what matchfixing was, manipulated into losing his games through peer pressure by Savior (and didn't get paid btw)
what the fuck are you doing, jerking off to that "I'm a good guy" feel train?
On December 15 2017 02:13 Dazed. wrote: The fact is: Savior took money almost a decade ago, when he was closer to being a kid than a man, and it was a non violent crime. He did it within a social context where, A, he went into a niche industry that really doesnt earn much but is inundated with the mob, and B, a society that pays a lot of importance to age and education, and he had deferred both (in a sense) in order to play video games. Right? So a desperate situation, and he fucked up. The fact that anyone is even considering not forgiving him, and at the very least just leaving him the fuck alone, is really sad. Its a sad reflection on humanity, and its a sad reflection on the character of the people who do it. Anyone who doesnt understand forgiveness, or change, is a child.
I'm serious. Look inside yourself, and ask what the fuck it is your doing?
Desperate? Desperate? DESPERATE? Oh please tell that to the countless professional gamers that were training 10+ hours a day just to get on stage. Please tell them that the reason for their dream and life's career being crushed was because the one of the most successful players of all time was "desperate" Please tell that to DarkElf, who didn't know what matchfixing was, manipulated into losing his games through peer pressure by Savior (and didn't get paid btw)
what the fuck are you doing, jerking off to that "I'm a good guy" feel train?
See how...childish this is? Saviors not desperate, because other people were! Well, no, the two can both be true at the same time. Apparently, because Savior screwed over others who had it worse - which im not denying -- i should lack any human sympathy for him, shut off my brain and pretend the fact that he was in his early 20's isnt relevant to his decision, and entirely stop growing as a human being. I get it now. arrararara FUCK SAVIOR!
I agree with dazed. Having savior banned from professional tournaments for the rest of his life, together with a steep fine, and all the inextricable social consequences during an entire decade has been enough of a punishment.
Anyone that still wants to see him suffer more or prevent him from doing something as banal as streaming, is not being fair. I'm still on the fence about whether he should be allowed to participate in tournaments again. On one hand, I believe anyone that cheats in a professional setting should be banned for life, but on the other hand this isn't at all the case in other professional sports where only a temporary ban ranging from 6 months to 2 years seems to be commonplace.
On December 15 2017 02:26 Dazed. wrote: @RCAR Or maybe theres a more psychological complexity to a person than your black and white interpretations of his actions? Maybe in being rejected by all of society constantly, boasting about being an uber driver was an attempt at saving face? Whether saviors an asshole or not really is none of your business; hes a complete stranger to you. The only thing being requested of anyone here is not to take an active stance in ensuring he cant make money/or reintegrate back into a community, requires nothing of you. Not understanding, not clicking a mouse. But random guy ten years ago did something that endangered your hobby, so apparently thats a blood feud for the rest of your life.
No one saying shit like "He hasnt changed at all!" or "hes scum!" has ever lived a life worthy of note. You've never had someone close to you who was a scum bag, who had anger problems or alcoholism, but also redeeming qualities? You've never been in a spot in your life where you acted poorly and regretted it years later? No one who can condemn someone like this so casually and easily from both a physical and emotional distance could of ever been through any significant in life. Black and white thinking like this is for children. Grow up and spend less time condemning people you dont know.
Endangered hobbies-> Killed the scene that is still on its last legs after 7 years. Sent multiple professional gamers as well as countless trainees down the trash. FTFY
Redeeming qualities? Savior? Please. Following are Iris's words from his stream when Savior first started streaming.
1. Savior was OK the first 6 months. Then his true colors showed so I hated him
2. Savior and I are enemies.
3. The suspected game with hyvva- if he matchfixed that then he's a c unt, if he didn't he's seriously a joke. It was a game you could not lose.
4. After getting DarElf to matchfix for him, the initial deal was 5000 dollars. Then, Savior took 3000 dollars for himself. He's a giant dick.
5. I loved it when firebathero beat savior and celebrated. I loved firebathero after that.
6. Regardless of matchfixing, he literally has the worst personality. Nobody in CJ liked him.
7. I've never personally fought Savior, though he provoked me once.
8. When the team kept getting second place, we went into an emergency meeting. Instead of saying he would work harder, Savior spewed stuff like "we should go on more vacations trips". I just told the coach I had to practice for the game tomorrow and went back to the practice room to prepare. I think the coach might have scolded Savior for being so lax compared to me. Savior came up and suddenly took off my headset and started cussing at me, yelling if I was crazy. He really wanted a fight.
9. If I couldn't hold back and actually beat that sucker, he probably would have taken it to the police. You can see how he did to those commenters.
10. When the coach saw Savior looking for a fight with me, he got so angry that he told Savior to pack up and leave.
11. (Oversky texts Iris angrily while Savior telling stories about the matchfixing scandal, saying that fuck still hasn't wisened up.)
12. Like Hwasin said, even outside of matchfixing he's just a terrible person.
13. If his fanboys knew how he really was they probably couldn't ever be his fans.
14. Savior's knee is really fucked up. That's not a lie to get sympathy. I lived with him- its really bad.
15. When he tried to cover up that he had matchfixed, he got a diary and wrote bullshit on it like "Ah why is my performance so bad these days", and placed it open on his bed in a really conspicuous manner for his teammates to see.
16. Conclusion? Trash. I hated him before he matchfixed. Nobody liked Savior, he was basically an outcast because he was just a terrible guy.
17. He was arrogant about his talent, so didn't practice much and went out with girls while his teammates practiced.
18. You think he was close to some members because he took pictures with them looking friendly? Nope. Nobody was close to Savior.
19. When Savior switched races to Terran against GoRush, GoRush got so mad he was frothing. That's how much we hated him. blog.naver.com
20. If someone lower than savior says hi to him, savior just ignores him.
21. He knew what would happen when he matchfixed. He knew, and still did it, and also became a broker, dragging others into it.
22. Look at him going for the chicken leg- literally him everywhere. Always puts himself first like the selfish guy he is //Lol
23. When he sees savior flinching away from Britney's handshake : Thats just who he is.
Maybe in being rejected by all of society constantly, boasting about being an uber driver was an attempt at saving face? Whether saviors an asshole or not really is none of your business; hes a complete stranger to you.
Yeah, I can believe it if he's an arrogant arse that Iris is saying he is. Thanks for backing up my point. Apologizing for matchfixing but trying to save face at the same time- really convincing.
Of course its my business right now - there is a literal poll going on if you weren't aware.
I'm sure you and Savior are best buddies who know everything about each other- that's why you can talk about his redeeming qualities right? Perhaps your'e a CJ team member like Iris was, and Iris iand Oversky are lying? If you have some personal stories to tell, I would love to translate them into Korean and get some exposure for you. I was Savior's fan cafe and fan club member for a couple of years. People loved me because I was so little. I could definitely search up some old contacts and send them out.
Did any of you even watch sAviOr's stream back when he wasn't banned? The guy lives and breathes on controversy and drama, and has so little to offer in terms of actual Brood War skill. sAviOr can be free to do what he wants, but in terms of the quality of Brood War content, AfreecaTV had its best years without sAviOr. It's not like two-versus-two Brood War games versus random nobodies was the epitome of Brood War content that everybody was longing for anyways.
Personally speaking, sAviOr awkwardly trying to make friends with more popular streamers in order to gain leverage isn't my cup of tea. People fighting on other streams over the topic of sAviOr, and interfering with the general vibe of other Brood War streams isn't something I'm looking forward to. As long as the quality of other Brood War content isn't negatively affected, I don't really mind what sAviOr does, but I'm of the opinion that he has way too much baggage for that to happen.
I'm not sure whether it is the idea of sAviOr returning that gives people the butterflies, or the actual content that sAviOr brought as a streamer that they miss, but either way, it isn't a big issue for me so long as the rest of the Brood War content goes on as planned.
People cheat in real sports for much larger sums of money and only get banned for 6 months to a year, I see no logic in the continuous punishment of someone for something that was done over a decade ago.
He was banned, fined, disgraced, and dropped like a bad habit (deservedly) by the community, but after awhile isn't enough enough? After you serve a prison sentence are we as a society implying that you should be continuously punished forever?
Let the man back, you people acting like he went out and molested children or robbed some old lady at gun point are ridiculous and sound like little more then a witch hunting angry mob, especially you RCar, wow, the poster child for angry mob mentality gone wrong.
Let bygones by bygones....after a set amount of time (a fucking decade?) and appropriate punishment (which he was served on a cold dish) what more do you want?
On December 15 2017 02:13 Dazed. wrote: The fact is: Savior took money almost a decade ago, when he was closer to being a kid than a man, and it was a non violent crime. He did it within a social context where, A, he went into a niche industry that really doesnt earn much but is inundated with the mob, and B, a society that pays a lot of importance to age and education, and he had deferred both (in a sense) in order to play video games. Right? So a desperate situation, and he fucked up. The fact that anyone is even considering not forgiving him, and at the very least just leaving him the fuck alone, is really sad. Its a sad reflection on humanity, and its a sad reflection on the character of the people who do it. Anyone who doesnt understand forgiveness, or change, is a child.
I'm serious. Look inside yourself, and ask what the fuck it is your doing?
Desperate? Desperate? DESPERATE? Oh please tell that to the countless professional gamers that were training 10+ hours a day just to get on stage. Please tell them that the reason for their dream and life's career being crushed was because the one of the most successful players of all time was "desperate" Please tell that to DarkElf, who didn't know what matchfixing was, manipulated into losing his games through peer pressure by Savior (and didn't get paid btw)
what the fuck are you doing, jerking off to that "I'm a good guy" feel train?
Yea. This attitude is...well I can't relate. It's incredibly unmerited if you think Savior's apology is sincere. Even if you don't though, it's still overkill.
Dude made some bad decisions, fucked up hard and screwed many people over in the process. These are all very bad things, and that's an understatement. That said, the guy was barely out of his teens and pressured by people significantly more powerful than him. That has to factor into the decision. What he did was terrible, but it's also not some unforgivable action like raping someone or a cold blooded murder. Those are things for which I would not even forgive a 15 year old. Matchfixing is not one of those things.
Young men have done stupid, borderline evil shit before, whether that's stealing, assaulting someone, harassment, etc. Many of them have gone on to recognize what they did was terrible, reform themselves, and move on to being good productive citizens. Good husbands, good fathers. Many don't, but people absolutely can change. We are always aware of their past, but recognize that who someone was ten, twenty, or fifty years ago is not a reflection of who they are today.
One thing I will say is that Savior should never be allowed to play a tournament again. In that sense, it's an unforgivable crime. I'd put that in the same category as doping, do it once and it should be a perma ban from competitive play. What we are doing with Savior is trying to say not only can he not play tournaments, but he can't play a game he enjoys and share it with people.
Do we have a problem is a great, banned athlete makes youtube videos about how to be better at their sport? Nope. Lance was close to destroying cycling, and he is rightfully banned from all competitive sports. Nobody has a problem if he still wants to ride his bike, interact with fans, do podcasts discussing the Tour de France or other races, or upload pictures of himself riding to instagram or strava. The same applies to any other athletes.
Savior should not be allowed back around competitive BW in any way.
He should absolutely be allowed to play BW and share BW content. Those are two VERY different things.
On December 15 2017 03:01 Beelzebub1 wrote: People cheat in real sports for much larger sums of money and only get banned for 6 months to a year, I see no logic in the continuous punishment of someone for something that was done over a decade ago.
This is a different issue all together. It's a travesty that people get those sorts of bans. Use of PEDs should be a lifetime ban.
That said, there is a huge difference between allowing Savior to associate with competitive BW, and allowing him to play BW and produce BW content.
On December 15 2017 03:01 Beelzebub1 wrote: People cheat in real sports for much larger sums of money and only get banned for 6 months to a year, I see no logic in the continuous punishment of someone for something that was done over a decade ago.
This is a different issue all together. It's a travesty that people get those sorts of bans. Use of PEDs should be a lifetime ban.
That said, there is a huge difference between allowing Savior to associate with competitive BW, and allowing him to play BW and produce BW content.
I agree, no tournaments, but should be able to stream freely.
On December 15 2017 02:13 Dazed. wrote: The fact is: Savior took money almost a decade ago, when he was closer to being a kid than a man, and it was a non violent crime. He did it within a social context where, A, he went into a niche industry that really doesnt earn much but is inundated with the mob, and B, a society that pays a lot of importance to age and education, and he had deferred both (in a sense) in order to play video games. Right? So a desperate situation, and he fucked up. The fact that anyone is even considering not forgiving him, and at the very least just leaving him the fuck alone, is really sad. Its a sad reflection on humanity, and its a sad reflection on the character of the people who do it. Anyone who doesnt understand forgiveness, or change, is a child.
I'm serious. Look inside yourself, and ask what the fuck it is your doing?
Desperate? Desperate? DESPERATE? Oh please tell that to the countless professional gamers that were training 10+ hours a day just to get on stage. Please tell them that the reason for their dream and life's career being crushed was because the one of the most successful players of all time was "desperate" Please tell that to DarkElf, who didn't know what matchfixing was, manipulated into losing his games through peer pressure by Savior (and didn't get paid btw)
what the fuck are you doing, jerking off to that "I'm a good guy" feel train?
Yea. This attitude is...well I can't relate. It's incredibly unmerited if you think Savior's apology is sincere. Even if you don't though, it's still overkill.
Dude made some bad decisions, fucked up hard and screwed many people over in the process. These are all very bad things, and that's an understatement. That said, the guy was barely out of his teens and pressured by people significantly more powerful than him. That has to factor into the decision. What he did was terrible, but it's also not some unforgivable action like raping someone or a cold blooded murder. Those are things for which I would not even forgive a 15 year old. Matchfixing is not one of those things.
Young men have done stupid, borderline evil shit before, whether that's stealing, assaulting someone, harassment, etc. Many of them have gone on to recognize what they did was terrible, reform themselves, and move on to being good productive citizens. Good husbands, good fathers. Many don't, but people absolutely can change. We are always aware of their past, but recognize that who someone was ten, twenty, or fifty years ago is not a reflection of who they are today.
One thing I will say is that Savior should never be allowed to play a tournament again. In that sense, it's an unforgivable crime. I'd put that in the same category as doping, do it once and it should be a perma ban from competitive play. What we are doing with Savior is trying to say not only can he not play tournaments, but he can't play a game he enjoys and share it with people.
Do we have a problem is a great, banned athlete makes youtube videos about how to be better at their sport? Nope. Lance was close to destroying cycling, and he is rightfully banned from all competitive sports. Nobody has a problem if he still wants to ride his bike, interact with fans, do podcasts discussing the Tour de France or other races, or upload pictures of himself riding to instagram or strava. The same applies to any other athletes.
Savior should not be allowed back around competitive BW in any way.
He should absolutely be allowed to play BW and share BW content. Those are two VERY different things.
Literally kills off the scene, then tries to make money off of it, and people are supposed to love it... make sense....?
Savior has never displayed sincerity. His multiple apologies were always half hearted at best, and he prevented anyone from ever bringing his matchfixing scandal up, to the point where his list of banned words grew over 114 words because he would get triggered at everything remotely related to matchfixing. Pitbull's tchu tchu cha was even banned because it sounded too much like the korean pronunciation of matchfix. If you are truly apologetic for matchfixing, you would accept you did a wrong, understand, and let people make their decisions, like people on TL tell others to do. Unfortunately, Savior does not want to accept he did a wrong and expects everyone to love him the instant he makes an apology. How is anyone (outside of TL i guess) supposed to believe he is sincere? Especially when his most recent stream, about a year and a half ago, still showed him unapologetic to his fans and bragging about his uber work?
Hwasin, when he streamed, pretended to be sincere and a lot of people were ready to accept his apology. He did not have a ban list of over 100 words so that he could save face. (he kicked it all away with a few scandals that showed he was not sincere after all, but that's not relevant here.)
Thankfully, Savior is already banned from streaming KeSPA sanctioned games on all the major platforms. Since people from Afreeca say they already reached out to him about the games he couldn't play, I personally don't really care what he does on stream. Maybe he can go back into the totally young and naiive Savior who made mistakes and tell his viewers to fuck off, that his uber driving makes more money. Oh wait- that was in 2016. 6 years didn't make a difference- how many more chances do people have to give him before he finally realizes what he's done? How do you expect us to believe that he is being sincere with that "on your knees" type deal? Everyone does it when they try to sound sorry. Savior just finally realized that after 7 years of trial and error.
He was 23. You could be almost done with a masters degree at that age. When I was 23 I never felt like my age was an excuse for anything stupid or malicious.
I think it's fine to let him stream but not bw. This is his 4th,5th chance, not his 2nd if you guys didn't know
But after what he has done, making jokes out of his situation and downplaying his role in previous starcraft streams, he shouldn't be touching BW if he has any sort of conscience. He can stream other games but not BW
If you see Korean streamers opinion, it varies but most of them are negative, from his smug attitude from his afreeca streaming days few years ago, to his progaming days, his statement and downplaying of his crimes that doesn't fit with the official court documents when he was streaming before his ban.
Let him stream? Fine. Touch BW that he destroyed and showed no remorse until he ran out of money so he could go for streaming for the 3rd time? No.
It's not like he is doing this out of pure need. He had a regular job, but he wants to cash on in his fame for the 3rd time with streaming
To people that think savior is good and you just "want to see skillful gameplay" he's worse than britney, the butt joke of streaming scene
On December 15 2017 03:27 ArvickHero wrote: what is this young guy bullshit excuse
He was 23. You could be almost done with a masters degree at that age. When I was 23 I never felt like my age was an excuse for anything stupid or malicious.
On average your prefrontal cortext will be developed at 25 years of age. To coin it in basic terms, let's call this the center of your brains rationality.
Referring to yourself as an argument is an anecdotal fallacy.
What's he doing nowadays? Is he just desperate for money and tries to fool the community so he can earn money with streaming? Not sure I can take him seriously.
On December 15 2017 03:31 Charoisaur wrote: What's he doing nowadays? Is he just desperate for money and tries to fool the community so he can earn money with streaming? Not sure I can take him seriously.
So don't fund his life style. This ain't really rocket science.
On December 15 2017 03:27 ArvickHero wrote: what is this young guy bullshit excuse
He was 23. You could be almost done with a masters degree at that age. When I was 23 I never felt like my age was an excuse for anything stupid or malicious.
On average your prefrontal cortext will be developed at 25 years of age. To coin it in basic terms, let's call this the center of your brains rationality.
Referring to yourself as an argument is an anecdotal fallacy.
20 is the legal age in Korea. It is also the age where you have are expected to know and take on the full responsibility for your actions. I don't know if any country babies people until they're 25, but perhaps Savior could immigrate there. Its not like this was something really complicated... Hmmm... should I do something illegal...? Hmmm... So hard..... Hmmm... should I also invite my coworkers to this matchfixing gang and jeopardize the scene any further..? Oh noes my lack of fully developed prefrontal corex!
On December 15 2017 03:29 jinjin5000 wrote: I think it's fine to let him stream but not bw. This is his 4th,5th chance, not his 2nd if you guys didn't know
But after what he has done, making jokes out of his situation and downplaying his role in previous starcraft streams, he shouldn't be touching BW if he has any sort of conscience. He can stream other games but not BW
If you see Korean streamers opinion, it varies but most of them are negative, from his smug attitude from his afreeca streaming days few years ago, to his progaming days, his statement and downplaying of his crimes that doesn't fit with the official court documents when he was streaming before his ban.
Let him stream? Fine. Touch BW that he destroyed and showed no remorse until he ran out of money so he could go for streaming for the 3rd time? No.
It's not like he is doing this out of pure need. He had a regular job, but he wants to cash on in his fame for the 3rd time with streaming
To people that think savior is good and you just "want to see skillful gameplay" he's worse than britney, the butt joke of streaming scene
Unless you make an argument against market economies in general, you really fall flat of arguing why this person should not be allowed to do whatever he wants to finance his lifestyle.
On December 15 2017 03:27 ArvickHero wrote: what is this young guy bullshit excuse
He was 23. You could be almost done with a masters degree at that age. When I was 23 I never felt like my age was an excuse for anything stupid or malicious.
On average your prefrontal cortext will be developed at 25 years of age. To coin it in basic terms, let's call this the center of your brains rationality.
Referring to yourself as an argument is an anecdotal fallacy.
20 is the legal age in Korea. It is also the age where you have are expected to know and take on the full responsibility for your actions. I don't know if any country babies people until they're 25, but perhaps Savior could immigrate there.
I'm sorry that you feel the need to embarrass yourself with this kind of hyperventilating emotional statement.
Unless you have anything to say about the fact that people's brains on average develope until the age of 25, why say anything at all? Is it to highlight your lack of neuro-scientific knowledge and understanding?
On December 15 2017 03:27 ArvickHero wrote: what is this young guy bullshit excuse
He was 23. You could be almost done with a masters degree at that age. When I was 23 I never felt like my age was an excuse for anything stupid or malicious.
On average your prefrontal cortext will be developed at 25 years of age. To coin it in basic terms, let's call this the center of your brains rationality.
Referring to yourself as an argument is an anecdotal fallacy.
20 is the legal age in Korea. It is also the age where you have are expected to know and take on the full responsibility for your actions. I don't know if any country babies people until they're 25, but perhaps Savior could immigrate there.
I'm sorry that you feel the need to embarrass yourself with this kind of hyperventilating emotional statement.
Unless you have anything to say about the fact that people's brains on average develope until the age of 25, why say anything at all?
sure just read the rest of my comment Edit: I think you may be an aggro with this whole thing The more I read your comments, the more I think so. I think I ignore you from now on.
On December 15 2017 03:31 Charoisaur wrote: What's he doing nowadays? Is he just desperate for money and tries to fool the community so he can earn money with streaming? Not sure I can take him seriously.
Had a regular job, decided he made more streaming, so now he's back for the 3rd time.
Looks like people never saw saviors streams during his 1st and 2nd streaming attempts, or people wouldn't be defending him this hard.
On December 15 2017 03:27 ArvickHero wrote: what is this young guy bullshit excuse
He was 23. You could be almost done with a masters degree at that age. When I was 23 I never felt like my age was an excuse for anything stupid or malicious.
On average your prefrontal cortext will be developed at 25 years of age. To coin it in basic terms, let's call this the center of your brains rationality.
Referring to yourself as an argument is an anecdotal fallacy.
20 is the legal age in Korea. It is also the age where you have are expected to know and take on the full responsibility for your actions. I don't know if any country babies people until they're 25, but perhaps Savior could immigrate there.
I'm sorry that you feel the need to embarrass yourself with this kind of hyperventilating emotional statement.
Unless you have anything to say about the fact that people's brains on average develope until the age of 25, why say anything at all?
sure just read the rest of my comment Edit: I think you may be an aggro with this whole thing The more I read your comments, the more I think so. I think I ignore you from now on.
I could not care less about an hyperventilating ignoramous, who doesn't bother to understand brain developement, ignoring me.
This is tough because I understand what some folks are saying about how he is doing this for easy money. I heard about how he tried to come back before and downplayed his role in the scandal. It's tough to say if he is truly sincere. But I still think we should give him a chance. I doubt he would ever again do anything that was remotely detrimental to BW. It would be suicide at this point and fucking retarded. Thus, the only thing he can do to win favor in our eyes, are things that would be a positive for the BW scene. If he is truly sorry, he will work his ass off by bringing in more viewers and creating BW content. That can only be a plus for us in the end. He's at rock bottom, the only way to go now is up.
Most of the foreigners defending savior hasn't really been exposed to other streamers talking about him or his first streaming attempts so they seem to have made up imaginary persona of savior in their head just based on tiny land video
He was not like that at all.
Let him stream? Fine. But not BW where he will cause largely negative outcome, with established streamers there already. He is just bundle of controversy
Oh, and this isn t his first time streaming. He only did this 180 on attitude because he was forced out.
Out of all matchfixer, saviOr was the most downplaying/arrogant about it. Other matchfixer received relative forgiveness, but never savior.
On December 15 2017 03:40 Golgotha wrote: This is tough because I understand what some folks are saying about how he is doing this for easy money. I heard about how he tried to come back before and downplayed his role in the scandal. It's tough to say if he is truly sincere. But I still think we should give him a chance. I doubt he would ever again do anything that was remotely detrimental to BW. It would be suicide at this point and fucking retarded. Thus, the only thing he can do to win favor in our eyes, are things that would be a positive for the BW scene. If he is truly sorry, he will work his ass off by bringing in more viewers and creating BW content. That can only be a plus for us in the end. He's at rock bottom, the only way to go now is up.
Well, since BW is coming back (kinda sorta) to a professional scene, it is hard to gain sponsors when you see the community endorsing someone who has fucked over the scene multiple times, as well as not displaying sincerity. It creates the sense that the scene is more desperate than it is to the point where matchfixers are welcomed back. The premise behind Terror and how many BJs dropped him as they moved on towards a more "official" scene is the same way. The reactions in Korea are far more negative then on Teamliquid however, so we'll see how big this ends up becoming.
On December 15 2017 03:41 jinjin5000 wrote: Most of the foreigners defending savior hasn't really been exposed to other streamers talking about him or his first streaming attempts so they seem to have made up imaginary persona of savior in their head just based on tiny land video
He was not like that at all.
Let him stream? Fine. But not BW where he will cause largely negative outcome, with established streamers there already. He is just bundle of controversy
Oh, and this isn t his first time streaming. He only did this 180 on attitude because he was forced out.
Out of all matchfixer, saviOr was the most downplaying/arrogant about it. Other matchfixer received relative forgiveness, but never savior.
It's not that people don't understand what's going on.
People are just refusing to understand and believe in what they want to believe in. Regardless of severity. Regardless of scene implications. Regardless of... anything basically.
On December 15 2017 03:27 ArvickHero wrote: what is this young guy bullshit excuse
He was 23. You could be almost done with a masters degree at that age. When I was 23 I never felt like my age was an excuse for anything stupid or malicious.
did u live in a team house since u were a kid without parents playing full time games to a corporation ?
On December 15 2017 03:41 jinjin5000 wrote: Most of the foreigners defending savior hasn't really been exposed to other streamers talking about him or his first streaming attempts so they seem to have made up imaginary persona of savior in their head just based on tiny land video
He was not like that at all.
Let him stream? Fine. But not BW where he will cause largely negative outcome, with established streamers there already. He is just bundle of controversy
Oh, and this isn t his first time streaming. He only did this 180 on attitude because he was forced out.
Out of all matchfixer, saviOr was the most downplaying/arrogant about it. Other matchfixer received relative forgiveness, but never savior.
It's not that people don't understand what's going on.
People are just refusing to understand and believe in what they want to believe in. Regardless of severity. Regardless of scene implications. Regardless of... anything basically.
.
I mean let me say this as a latecomers into BW.
I joined bw in June 2017 so I didn't have much info other than basic knowledge of bonjwa, knowledge of matchfixing scandal (Didn't know how big, just heard it in news).
Even though I just hopped over from sc2 where it suffered matchfixing scandal, I didn't know the situation in BW scene until I was provided with resources such as streamers talking about it, YouTube clips of saviors stream, general Korean community talking about his potential return, and general publics feedback on Facebook and YouTube
I formed my opinion after viewing all that, but a lot of people here don't have the same resources. Yea, some people will stick with forgive savior regardless of what he does, but most people also didn't see saviors ugly side or doesn't even know he streamed before. They only have to tiny land video where they largely just skipped over backstory
On December 15 2017 03:27 ArvickHero wrote: what is this young guy bullshit excuse
He was 23. You could be almost done with a masters degree at that age. When I was 23 I never felt like my age was an excuse for anything stupid or malicious.
did u live in a team house since u were a kid without parents playing full time games to a corporation ?
The guy was well compensated when he was playing. Savior made a choice to play games for a corporation. Stop acting as if he is a victim.
"I dreamed that God would never die; I dreamed that men would be forgiving." Problem is, God died, and people lack the ability to truly forgive (i.e intentionally take upon themselves the burden to pay themselves the consequences of another's crime against them). Nobody wants to suffer double.
It's like cutting in line. Only ok if you can SWAP with someone else so that that person goes to the BACK of the line.
Since nobody can forgive another person, people are filled with regrets and can't do a thing about having messed up - other than suffer punishment or rage or exclusion.
No real redemption in the world of men.
Which is why they allow you to put money in Reincarnation accounts - to help your next life go better. Modern simony it is, but whatevz.
On December 15 2017 03:27 ArvickHero wrote: what is this young guy bullshit excuse
He was 23. You could be almost done with a masters degree at that age. When I was 23 I never felt like my age was an excuse for anything stupid or malicious.
did u live in a team house since u were a kid without parents playing full time games to a corporation ?
The guy was well compensated when he was playing. Savior made a choice to play games for a corporation. Stop acting as if he is a victim.
compesate to what ? he was part of the GO team in the wcg2005,check the documentary...
he is not a victim,i want to make clear that most of these progamers didnt live a normal life like most of the people here complaining in the fórums. fórum Warriors...
It's true that it's not like he killed someone so we shouldn't take this whole situation dead serious. That's why he should stay the fuck away from Starcraft. I don't give a shit about him personally. He's free to do whatever he wants in his life, the world is full of opportunities. However, it's fucking ridiculous to return to a thing you helped destroy and expect people to let you come back. You're free to do whatever but don't you do anything Starcraft related, savior.
On December 15 2017 03:27 ArvickHero wrote: what is this young guy bullshit excuse
He was 23. You could be almost done with a masters degree at that age. When I was 23 I never felt like my age was an excuse for anything stupid or malicious.
did u live in a team house since u were a kid without parents playing full time games to a corporation ?
The guy was well compensated when he was playing. Savior made a choice to play games for a corporation. Stop acting as if he is a victim.
He was well compensated for like two years of it, the rest he was paid little. Your post also seems to have missed the social implication of living away from your family and playing games full time. You also dont seem to understand the pro scene. For instance, at one point, it is known that the KTF head coach threatened to attack yell0w with a bat because he wasnt practicing enough. Shit like that. He was a bit of an outlier, but apply a similar degree of exploitivity to the scene as a whole, and you might gain a little understanding.
On December 15 2017 03:27 ArvickHero wrote: what is this young guy bullshit excuse
He was 23. You could be almost done with a masters degree at that age. When I was 23 I never felt like my age was an excuse for anything stupid or malicious.
did u live in a team house since u were a kid without parents playing full time games to a corporation ?
The guy was well compensated when he was playing. Savior made a choice to play games for a corporation. Stop acting as if he is a victim.
compesate to what ? he was part of the GO team in the wcg2005,check the documentary...
He was in CJ, one of the rich conglomerate teams, starting 2006 and made hella money a year (6 figures), and thats not counting his winnings.... He literally could have continued riding the gravy train off his popularity for the next 6 years. According to Savior, he doesn't have a lot of money because his mom spent all of it while he was too busy playing games, but he realized that after matchfixing, not during. I don't know why people think that, but Savior wasn't exactly hungering for money.
On December 15 2017 03:27 ArvickHero wrote: what is this young guy bullshit excuse
He was 23. You could be almost done with a masters degree at that age. When I was 23 I never felt like my age was an excuse for anything stupid or malicious.
did u live in a team house since u were a kid without parents playing full time games to a corporation ?
The guy was well compensated when he was playing. Savior made a choice to play games for a corporation. Stop acting as if he is a victim.
He was well compensated for like two years of it, the rest he was paid little. Your post also seems to have missed the social implication of living away from your family and playing games full time. You also dont seem to understand the pro scene. For instance, at one point, it is known that the KTF head coach threatened to attack yell0w with a bat because he wasnt practicing enough. Shit like that. He was a bit of an outlier, but apply a similar degree of exploitivity to the scene as a whole, and you might gain a little understanding.
I don't think you understand the korean pro scene, or just kr in general. In fact, you are definitely trying to scandalize one of the most respected coaches in Korea. KTF's coach you are talking about (빠따정), did use his famous bat. In fact, the entire KTF Team- including himself has been hit by it. The reason for that was that the team was falling hard, with players having problems putting gaming over personal life. He berated himself over it, and talked to the players that they needed something to change. He was hit twice (by Blaze), and hit everyone else once, to jolt everyone back into reality. This was poor Nal_Ra's first day in KTF btw. Considering KTF's path from that day onward, many pros look back and think of it as a memory, not something to be hated over. Of course, you can argue that hitting someone is wrong no matter what the case, etc; but it is also important to remember that physical punishments in Korea were widely believed to be one of the best ways. Despite that belief, he refrained from doing so until things got dire. This was also the one and only time he has hit someone.
You literally brought up an event, portrayed it as inaccurately as possible, and denounced someone else for not knowing the scene like what...?
what is the harm for letting him stream? the disagreement to let him make money from it? here is the potential benefit for letting him stream: more high level skill for viewing
On December 15 2017 04:18 mishimaBeef wrote: what is the harm for letting him stream? the disagreement to let him make money from it? here is the potential benefit for letting him stream: more high level skill for viewing
By high level, you mean Britney level of skill, sure.
On December 15 2017 04:18 mishimaBeef wrote: what is the harm for letting him stream? the disagreement to let him make money from it? here is the potential benefit for letting him stream: more high level skill for viewing
By high level, you mean Britney level of skill, sure.
We all lose some games yo, savior is really talented and very creative, i'm not zerg anymore but it's fun to watch because he has sucha slow apm, but controls zerg so well... at times...
On December 15 2017 04:18 mishimaBeef wrote: what is the harm for letting him stream? the disagreement to let him make money from it? here is the potential benefit for letting him stream: more high level skill for viewing
By high level, you mean Britney level of skill, sure.
so called "pros" get beaten pretty often imo by off-race opponents... so...
just like 2 days ago larva absolutely demolished some zerg with terran... and finished two games vs protoss in very short time...
and overall the level of play i see isn't that impressive on streams, except probably for flash who seems to take his play pretty seriously in comparison
On December 15 2017 04:18 mishimaBeef wrote: what is the harm for letting him stream? the disagreement to let him make money from it? here is the potential benefit for letting him stream: more high level skill for viewing
By high level, you mean Britney level of skill, sure.
We all lose some games yo, savior is really talented and very creative, i'm not zerg anymore but it's fun to watch because he has sucha slow apm, but controls zerg so well... at times...
Like when was the last time you've seen him play? 2013? Since we're imagining that Savior magically is allowed to play BW on stream again, he will never be competitive, I'm thinking he might be on the level of Lx atm.
On December 15 2017 03:27 ArvickHero wrote: what is this young guy bullshit excuse
He was 23. You could be almost done with a masters degree at that age. When I was 23 I never felt like my age was an excuse for anything stupid or malicious.
did u live in a team house since u were a kid without parents playing full time games to a corporation ?
The guy was well compensated when he was playing. Savior made a choice to play games for a corporation. Stop acting as if he is a victim.
compesate to what ? he was part of the GO team in the wcg2005,check the documentary...
he is not a victim,i want to make clear that most of these progamers didnt live a normal life like most of the people here complaining in the fórums. fórum Warriors...
Ah yes! I'm a forum warrior for telling the facts! You are cherry picking a very small portion of data in an effort to justify him as a victim in order to gain sympathy out of fellow forum lurkers/posters. Just stop it. He was on a pro team with a salary that allowed him to live a comfortable life. He got greedy, wanted more and did very UNETHICAL things to earn extra money which resulted in the downfall of the korean bw scene.
yeah well if streaming was a thing back then maybe he would have done that instead of the UNETHICAL thing ... the advent of streaming was a pretty big deal... something to consider
On December 15 2017 02:13 Dazed. wrote: The fact is: Savior took money almost a decade ago, when he was closer to being a kid than a man, and it was a non violent crime. He did it within a social context where, A, he went into a niche industry that really doesnt earn much but is inundated with the mob, and B, a society that pays a lot of importance to age and education, and he had deferred both (in a sense) in order to play video games. Right? So a desperate situation, and he fucked up. The fact that anyone is even considering not forgiving him, and at the very least just leaving him the fuck alone, is really sad. Its a sad reflection on humanity, and its a sad reflection on the character of the people who do it. Anyone who doesnt understand forgiveness, or change, is a child.
I'm serious. Look inside yourself, and ask what the fuck it is your doing?
Desperate? Desperate? DESPERATE? Oh please tell that to the countless professional gamers that were training 10+ hours a day just to get on stage. Please tell them that the reason for their dream and life's career being crushed was because the one of the most successful players of all time was "desperate" Please tell that to DarkElf, who didn't know what matchfixing was, manipulated into losing his games through peer pressure by Savior (and didn't get paid btw)
what the fuck are you doing, jerking off to that "I'm a good guy" feel train?
Yea. This attitude is...well I can't relate. It's incredibly unmerited if you think Savior's apology is sincere. Even if you don't though, it's still overkill.
Dude made some bad decisions, fucked up hard and screwed many people over in the process. These are all very bad things, and that's an understatement. That said, the guy was barely out of his teens and pressured by people significantly more powerful than him. That has to factor into the decision. What he did was terrible, but it's also not some unforgivable action like raping someone or a cold blooded murder. Those are things for which I would not even forgive a 15 year old. Matchfixing is not one of those things.
Young men have done stupid, borderline evil shit before, whether that's stealing, assaulting someone, harassment, etc. Many of them have gone on to recognize what they did was terrible, reform themselves, and move on to being good productive citizens. Good husbands, good fathers. Many don't, but people absolutely can change. We are always aware of their past, but recognize that who someone was ten, twenty, or fifty years ago is not a reflection of who they are today.
One thing I will say is that Savior should never be allowed to play a tournament again. In that sense, it's an unforgivable crime. I'd put that in the same category as doping, do it once and it should be a perma ban from competitive play. What we are doing with Savior is trying to say not only can he not play tournaments, but he can't play a game he enjoys and share it with people.
Do we have a problem is a great, banned athlete makes youtube videos about how to be better at their sport? Nope. Lance was close to destroying cycling, and he is rightfully banned from all competitive sports. Nobody has a problem if he still wants to ride his bike, interact with fans, do podcasts discussing the Tour de France or other races, or upload pictures of himself riding to instagram or strava. The same applies to any other athletes.
Savior should not be allowed back around competitive BW in any way.
He should absolutely be allowed to play BW and share BW content. Those are two VERY different things.
Literally kills off the scene, then tries to make money off of it, and people are supposed to love it... make sense....?
I'm not sure what this means, no one outside of some hardcore fanboys are suggesting we should just love Savior, kiss and make up like nothing happened.
On December 15 2017 03:15 RCCar wrote:
Savior has never displayed sincerity.
His multiple apologies were always half hearted at best, and he prevented anyone from ever bringing his matchfixing scandal up, to the point where his list of banned words grew over 114 words because he would get triggered at everything remotely related to matchfixing.
Pitbull's tchu tchu cha was even banned because it sounded too much like the korean pronunciation of matchfix. If you are truly apologetic for matchfixing, you would accept you did a wrong, understand, and let people make their decisions, like people on TL tell others to do.
Unfortunately, Savior does not want to accept he did a wrong and expects everyone to love him the instant he makes an apology. How is anyone (outside of TL i guess) supposed to believe he is sincere? Especially when his most recent stream, about a year and a half ago, still showed him unapologetic to his fans and bragging about his uber work?
Could well be. Savior has never seemed like a likeable guy. Reminds me in a ton of ways of Lance Armstrong. Arrogant prick in real life who isn't sorry about what he did at all. I don't know him well enough to actually call Savior that, but it's the vibe I get from the snippets that come through.
On December 15 2017 03:15 RCCar wrote:
Thankfully, Savior is already banned from streaming KeSPA sanctioned games on all the major platforms. Since people from Afreeca say they already reached out to him about the games he couldn't play, I personally don't really care what he does on stream. Maybe he can go back into the totally young and naiive Savior who made mistakes and tell his viewers to fuck off, that his uber driving makes more money. Oh wait- that was in 2016.
6 years didn't make a difference- how many more chances do people have to give him before he finally realizes what he's done?
How do you expect us to believe that he is being sincere with that "on your knees" type deal? Everyone does it when they try to sound sorry. Savior just finally realized that after 7 years of trial and error.
I'm not arguing or suggesting that anyone believe Saviors apology, or that he has changed.
I'm DEFINITELY NOT suggesting he be given additional chances. I've already said he should be banned from competition permanently. In that regard there is no forgiveness.
He should not be allowed to play in ASLs, or any other formal BW tournament. Ever.
That said, that has no bearing on his streaming. We don't treat any other athlete, personal, or celebrity like that. There is no "oh hey Lance, you asshole doper, you can't ever ride your bike again or interact with other cyclists". If people want to pay Lance to ride with them, or to put out content, they should be able to.
It's that side of it that is crazy to me. If this was a normal standard that we held other people to it would perhaps be reasonable, but it's not consistent with the treatment any other athlete in this position has ever been dealt. Bans from competition are standard and accepted, attempts to completely block the athlete from ever participating in the sport in any fashion is utterly unhead of.
On an unrelated note, I don't understand why people want to watch Savior. I could see why they might be interested in his thoughts on the pro scene or other players, but watching him play Starcraft? He's an ancient history great that is now, being generous, decidedly mediocre at the pro level.
On December 15 2017 04:33 mishimaBeef wrote: yeah well if streaming was a thing back then maybe he would have done that instead of the UNETHICAL thing ... the advent of streaming was a pretty big deal... something to consider
Yes, I am certainly considering what you have said... And I can't figure out wtf it has to do with anything.
Literally going around in circles. L Master made some of the best points I think from a pro savior streaming scbw standpoint. I'll attempt to address things here.
-> Savior was desperate for money 1. Savior wasn't desperate for money. He joined a conglomerate team in 2006 making 6 figure salary. I'm pretty sure it went up to 200~300k at his peak. He did get paid less as his form started falling off but considering that YellOw in his later days still made 6 figure salary... I don't think he would have gotten any less.
-> But what about after BW? What could he do?
2. Savior had a very good transition awaiting him in the area of eSports. He could have been a coach, worked for CJ as a brand, heck, streaming was around in 2009 and I doubt Savior would have had no viewers. BoxeR wanted Savior to continue the scene after him and placed trust in the man.
-> He was young, he couldn't have foreseen it.
3. He was 23. Aside from the 1 guy who thinks that you can't make rational decisions until 25, he matchfixed, then pushed in many younger gamers to do the same thing. He didn't pay them what he said he would either.
-> Why are we judging strangers here? He has redeeming qualities.
4. Skipping past the part where "redeeming qualities" are also technically judging strangers, professional gamers who were close to him expressed distaste. Earlier on this thread, (pg 3 I think), I translated what Iris said about Savior's personality and how despicable it was. I don't think he has the best personality.
-> Its been so long since he matchfixed- surely he has repented by now.
5. Savior has streamed many times before apologizing, Unfortunately, instead of acknowledging his "mistake", he has downplayed his errors and went so far as to ban any and all mentions relating to matchfixing. His list of banned words were over 100 including sports teams that matchfixed like Juventus. Considering how Hwasin apologized properly and took callouts and questions about matchfixing in stride during his stream, and was still discovered insincere, I think there is no doubt that Savior is not sincere at all.
-> Let savior stream, its just streaming.
6. Savior has streamed in 2016, showing off his name brand clothing on stream, and hanging with cam streamers. He quit soon. He is completely free to stream, just not certain games such as BW, SC2, OW, and LoL. The reason this thread is going through debate at all is because people want him to stream Starcraft.
-> He can play high quality games, we need every streamer.
7. Savior, even back in 2013, showed miserable form. I doubt that he can show competitive games 4 years later. Also, streamers already showed disgust at being asked to play against him- namely Best who refused 1000 dollars worth of donations to play against him in the future.
-> What would be the problem with him streaming/ coming into mainstream starcraft?
8. Starcraft in the Korean scene, is just recently coming into popularity again, with OGN even considering a starcraft league. (They haven't said anything about it since, but haven't retracted their statement officially so still praying). For potential sponsors, former matchfixers such as Savior playing the game, and the community endorsing such actions, will more than likely harm their image sponsoring. In Korea, public opinion is overwhelmingly negative. For Starcraft to get big sponsors again, the scene has to show they do not condone illegal/ dangerous actions. Streamers like Larva or Best leaving Terror as they strive for a more mainstream audience would be one of the examples. I'm not a marketing major, so take these words with a grain of salt. As for the community aspect of it, it is the morality issue that he is making money off of the scene that he has destroyed almost singlehandedly. Now that many former pros make money off of streaming, I think you can imagine the insult they would feel. Hwasin's incident was like this as well, and pros such as firebathero called him out on his hypocrisy.
-> But Savior needs money too.
9. Perhaps he can get it in a way that he doesn't further manipulate the scene he has already destroyed. He could have had an insane amount of money during his career but voluntarily kicked it all away.
-> Savior didn't make much during his BW Career.
10. back to 1.
P.S. Before we say something something korean scene, lets do some research on it first, ok? I will be happy to translate articles as needed if you find something that thinks will help. Just PM me. comment on 빠따정 actually has me triggered atm.
prefrontal cortex related to decision making shown to fully develop at 30 (according to brain book from library), though quick internet search shows 25, actually mixed results on a quick web search
On December 15 2017 05:05 mishimaBeef wrote: prefrontal cortex related to decision making shown to fully develop at 30 (according to brain book from library), though quick internet search shows 25, actually mixed results on a quick web search
Yea fuck off about it both here and reddit. You are down to correcting grammar now
On December 15 2017 04:18 mishimaBeef wrote: what is the harm for letting him stream? the disagreement to let him make money from it? here is the potential benefit for letting him stream: more high level skill for viewing
By high level, you mean Britney level of skill, sure.
so called "pros" get beaten pretty often imo by off-race opponents... so...
just like 2 days ago larva absolutely demolished some zerg with terran... and finished two games vs protoss in very short time...
and overall the level of play i see isn't that impressive on streams, except probably for flash who seems to take his play pretty seriously in comparison
also that doesn't answer my question...
Watching sAviOr's streams for high Brood War skill is like going to Baskin-Robbins for the nutritional value. There are much better options if it is pure skill that you are after, and expecting everybody (tournament organizers, other streamers, and the viewers) to be just fine and just be chill with sAviOr returning to the Brood War scene is naive beyond words. It is going to create controversy and drama, and that is the only thing that is guaranteed should he return to streaming Brood War content. I don't know whether you are ignorant or optimistic by expecting great Brood War skills from sAviOr especially considering his form in recent years.
On December 15 2017 05:05 mishimaBeef wrote: prefrontal cortex related to decision making shown to fully develop at 30 (according to brain book from library), though quick internet search shows 25, actually mixed results on a quick web search
Yea fuck off about it both here and reddit. You are down to correcting grammar now
lol? what's this about reddit?
i just posted a scientifically backed position in response to "1 guy thinks you can't make rational decisions until..."
On December 15 2017 04:18 mishimaBeef wrote: what is the harm for letting him stream? the disagreement to let him make money from it? here is the potential benefit for letting him stream: more high level skill for viewing
By high level, you mean Britney level of skill, sure.
so called "pros" get beaten pretty often imo by off-race opponents... so...
just like 2 days ago larva absolutely demolished some zerg with terran... and finished two games vs protoss in very short time...
and overall the level of play i see isn't that impressive on streams, except probably for flash who seems to take his play pretty seriously in comparison
also that doesn't answer my question...
Watching sAviOr's streams for high Brood War skill is like going to Baskin-Robbins for the nutritional value. There are much better options if it is pure skill that you are after, and expecting everybody (tournament organizers, other streamers, and the viewers) to be just fine and just be chill with sAviOr returning to the Brood War scene is naive beyond words. It is going to create controversy and drama, and that is the only thing that is guaranteed should he return to streaming Brood War content. I don't know whether you are ignorant or optimistic by expecting great Brood War skills from sAviOr especially considering his form in recent years.
what? who said anything about tournament organizers?
so your point is that something that is potentially capable of creating drama should be disallowed?
I have pirated tens of thousands of dollars in music, movies, PPVs over the years and each of those can get me up to five years of jail time and fines up to $250,000. I dont bat an eye over it. I dont think about the consequences of getting caught. I rationalize that most people are doing it, and that those im stealing from are already rich, while Im barely scraping by. I can very easily see myself doing something Savior did if I was in his position. We all have our own moral compass. Savior did something we as a society deemed illegal and he paid the price that the law deemed necessary. Now if your the type of person who does not want to give him a second chance, but see his punishment continued and his ability to earn a living diminished, all while you stream the latest movie or tv show tonight then shame on you.
The only reason he is here begging is because he needs more money but never developed any skills outside of Brood War and corrupt practices. I have no sympathy for him in that regard.
On December 15 2017 04:18 mishimaBeef wrote: what is the harm for letting him stream? the disagreement to let him make money from it? here is the potential benefit for letting him stream: more high level skill for viewing
By high level, you mean Britney level of skill, sure.
so called "pros" get beaten pretty often imo by off-race opponents... so...
just like 2 days ago larva absolutely demolished some zerg with terran... and finished two games vs protoss in very short time...
and overall the level of play i see isn't that impressive on streams, except probably for flash who seems to take his play pretty seriously in comparison
also that doesn't answer my question...
Watching sAviOr's streams for high Brood War skill is like going to Baskin-Robbins for the nutritional value. There are much better options if it is pure skill that you are after, and expecting everybody (tournament organizers, other streamers, and the viewers) to be just fine and just be chill with sAviOr returning to the Brood War scene is naive beyond words. It is going to create controversy and drama, and that is the only thing that is guaranteed should he return to streaming Brood War content. I don't know whether you are ignorant or optimistic by expecting great Brood War skills from sAviOr especially considering his form in recent years.
what? who said anything about tournament organizers?
so your point is that something that is potentially capable of creating drama should be disallowed?
It's not a potential outcome. It is guaranteed. It is the only thing that sAviOr has brought to the scene since he stopped being a professional. Pretending that he has brought good Brood War content from a sheer skill perspective is only possible if you have a flawed metric for what constitutes skill, or have not been watching Brood War content in recent years. That is my point.
On December 15 2017 03:27 ArvickHero wrote: what is this young guy bullshit excuse
He was 23. You could be almost done with a masters degree at that age. When I was 23 I never felt like my age was an excuse for anything stupid or malicious.
did u live in a team house since u were a kid without parents playing full time games to a corporation ?
The guy was well compensated when he was playing. Savior made a choice to play games for a corporation. Stop acting as if he is a victim.
compesate to what ? he was part of the GO team in the wcg2005,check the documentary...
he is not a victim,i want to make clear that most of these progamers didnt live a normal life like most of the people here complaining in the fórums. fórum Warriors...
Yet you look at the majority of the other progamers who went through the same process, and didn't do the same? You can make up all the excuses you want, but let's call a spade a fuckin spade; Savior was greedy and fucked up hard, and poisoned the well for everyone. His mere presence is poisoning the well once again. You can love Savior all you like, but please don't try to make up bullshit excuses to justify his actions.
Perhaps there's a cultural divide at work here. In the west, we don't necessarily think the actions of the individual reflect on the whole of an organization. In Korea, there is a much stronger association between the two. Ever heard of that dumb cliche "u dishonor your family, now you must kill yourself"? Well it's unfortunately true to some extent. That's why his actions wrecked the scene so hard, and why people in the scene are trying their best to reject him. He poisoned the well once, and his mere association is poisoning the well again for any outsiders looking in. There's no way he doesn't recognize that fact, but he just doesn't give a fuck because all he wants is $$$$$ for himself.
On December 15 2017 01:02 Alpha-NP- wrote: I'm willing to give Savior a second chance. The man influenced the Zerg metagame. For a long time he was the best Zerg. I once heard a twitch streamer say "we all cheated at one time or another".
A big segment of people on this forum are snowflakes and social justice warriors. The guy apologized immensely. It's time to forgive. A vocal minority of snowflakes will come in here whining but just look at the pool for the silent majority that thinks he should be given a second chance.
Apparently austere upholding of a punishment is now something snowflakes do. The widespread antithetical usage of words among social injustice warriors is amazing. Also, fuck savior.
The guy barely apologized after his matchfixing story broke out (his excuse was that he was only a broker, as if that makes it all better), streamed BW while the last Starleague was on, and banned just about anyone who dared to talk about his matchfixing.
Let's not forget Hwasin, who acted like a humble and kind person who seemingly accepted his mistakes. In a few short months after his interview on teamliquid he reverted to trying to host a tournament of his own and banning people who criticized him.
People who actually felt regret, like fake Yellow, apologized publicly and left the scene forever. Savior on the other hand was stubbornly profiting from BW via streaming and foreign tournaments after he ruined Starcraft 16x speed when it was dying at 2x speed, destroying jobs and perception of e-sports.
So maybe it's possible Savior changed. But it seems more likely he's pulling a Hwasin.
Also, financial interest is motivating Best? What? He even posted a video where he was asked if he's ever play with Savior if someone handed him a cold million and he said no.
On December 15 2017 04:57 RCCar wrote: Literally going around in circles. L Master made some of the best points I think from a pro savior streaming scbw standpoint. I'll attempt to address things here.
-> Savior was desperate for money 1. Savior wasn't desperate for money. He joined a conglomerate team in 2006 making 6 figure salary. I'm pretty sure it went up to 200~300k at his peak. He did get paid less as his form started falling off but considering that YellOw in his later days still made 6 figure salary... I don't think he would have gotten any less.
-> But what about after BW? What could he do?
2. Savior had a very good transition awaiting him in the area of eSports. He could have been a coach, worked for CJ as a brand, heck, streaming was around in 2009 and I doubt Savior would have had no viewers. BoxeR wanted Savior to continue the scene after him and placed trust in the man.
-> He was young, he couldn't have foreseen it.
3. He was 23. Aside from the 1 guy who thinks that you can't make rational decisions until 25, he matchfixed, then pushed in many younger gamers to do the same thing. He didn't pay them what he said he would either.
-> Why are we judging strangers here? He has redeeming qualities.
4. Skipping past the part where "redeeming qualities" are also technically judging strangers, professional gamers who were close to him expressed distaste. Earlier on this thread, (pg 3 I think), I translated what Iris said about Savior's personality and how despicable it was. I don't think he has the best personality.
-> Its been so long since he matchfixed- surely he has repented by now.
5. Savior has streamed many times before apologizing, Unfortunately, instead of acknowledging his "mistake", he has downplayed his errors and went so far as to ban any and all mentions relating to matchfixing. His list of banned words were over 100 including sports teams that matchfixed like Juventus. Considering how Hwasin apologized properly and took callouts and questions about matchfixing in stride during his stream, and was still discovered insincere, I think there is no doubt that Savior is not sincere at all.
-> Let savior stream, its just streaming.
6. Savior has streamed in 2016, showing off his name brand clothing on stream, and hanging with cam streamers. He quit soon. He is completely free to stream, just not certain games such as BW, SC2, OW, and LoL. The reason this thread is going through debate at all is because people want him to stream Starcraft.
-> He can play high quality games, we need every streamer.
7. Savior, even back in 2013, showed miserable form. I doubt that he can show competitive games 4 years later. Also, streamers already showed disgust at being asked to play against him- namely Best who refused 1000 dollars worth of donations to play against him in the future.
-> What would be the problem with him streaming/ coming into mainstream starcraft?
8. Starcraft in the Korean scene, is just recently coming into popularity again, with OGN even considering a starcraft league. (They haven't said anything about it since, but haven't retracted their statement officially so still praying). For potential sponsors, former matchfixers such as Savior playing the game, and the community endorsing such actions, will more than likely harm their image sponsoring. In Korea, public opinion is overwhelmingly negative. For Starcraft to get big sponsors again, the scene has to show they do not condone illegal/ dangerous actions. Streamers like Larva or Best leaving Terror as they strive for a more mainstream audience would be one of the examples. I'm not a marketing major, so take these words with a grain of salt. As for the community aspect of it, it is the morality issue that he is making money off of the scene that he has destroyed almost singlehandedly. Now that many former pros make money off of streaming, I think you can imagine the insult they would feel. Hwasin's incident was like this as well, and pros such as firebathero called him out on his hypocrisy.
-> But Savior needs money too.
9. Perhaps he can get it in a way that he doesn't further manipulate the scene he has already destroyed. He could have had an insane amount of money during his career but voluntarily kicked it all away.
-> Savior didn't make much during his BW Career.
10. back to 1.
P.S. Before we say something something korean scene, lets do some research on it first, ok? I will be happy to translate articles as needed if you find something that thinks will help. Just PM me. comment on 빠따정 actually has me triggered atm.
This is the most detailed and rational explanation of why savior should not be allowed to stream bw and continue to be exiled from the community. Kudos for taking the time to write this out. Thank you for sharing this. 100% agree here.
Afreeca is free to act in its own best interests. If they think Savior's participation is good for profits (directly or indirectly through public relations), they'll let him stream. If they don't, they won't.
That said, regarding the question of moral fairness, I think it would be fair to let him stream, for several reasons.
First, I think that a 10-year KeSPA ban instead of a permanent KeSPA ban would have been perfectly adequate, and that ban either would have expired by now or would be about to expire.
Second, streaming is separate from tournament competition. His ability (or inability) to provide a stream that viewers value is not directly connected to his ability (or inability) to respect the integrity of a tournament.
Third, neither the existing KeSPA ban nor a comprehensive ban on anything related to Brood War would actually prevent him from repeating his misdeeds. Savior is guilty of serving as a broker between shady gamblers and progamers who would agree to fix matches. If the circumstances were right for Savior to do this again, he could do so while being banned from streaming and from every tournament. He would just need some phone numbers. I am not saying I think that he will do it again, but rather that in terms of prevention, the ban does nothing.
Fourth, it seems relevant in this case that Savior was tried and sentenced under the law and that he served his sentence (according to earlier in this thread, it was 120 hours of community service and 2 years of probation).
Overall, I think that his actions merited serious consequences and that he has paid the consequences (including loss of his job and salary on CJ, inability to compete for a decade, and 120 hours of community service). Also, as I said, a continued ban serves no preventive role. Afreeca and other companies will put a finger in the air and make a decision on the basis of which camp is loudest, but personally I'm all right with letting the match fixing be water under the bridge. I formed this opinion without respect to whether I like his personality or believe his sincerity (I don't understand Korean), and without respect to whether he still has any skills. However, I will understand if some people, especially progamers, continue not to like him.
Altough I am quite a hard liner when it comes to match fixing and always say that match fixing should be punished with life time ban (alongside with cheaters), I only think this life time ban should be applied to competition. If he wants to play the game and stream it, then why not? Why would you try to restrain him from streaming? Don't like it? Then don't watch and let other people decide for themselves. Hence I have voted yes, but I still think he may never compete in a tournament ever again (at least in SC:R).
Banning him from streaming seems like a feelgood revenge wish fulfilment. There isn't really a basis for it. Official matches and tournament participation, of course, but streaming? Edit: But as Djabanete mentioned above, Afreeca can do whatever they want without any kind of basis.
To quote myself from a different thread:
I had this fantasy where in an alternate reality one of the match fixers enters the police academy (maybe despite any limitations against individuals with criminal records), begins working in a bureau dealing with fraud, and eventually gets to work on match fixing cases (in any sport). Something akin to Catch Me If You Can.
Savior has some real bad acting in that video. Someone would have to be extremely naive and stupid to believe he is actually remorseful for everything he did. Looks/sounds more like savior is just trying to play the role and feed everyone what he thinks they need to hear in order to be accepted rather than there being any genuine substance. I still vote no.
On December 15 2017 07:01 ReachTheSky wrote: Savior has some real bad acting in that video. Someone would have to be extremely naive and stupid to believe he is actually remorseful for everything he did. Looks/sounds more like savior is just trying to play the role and feed everyone what he thinks they need to hear in order to be accepted rather than there being any genuine substance. I still vote no.
So you decide what he's feeling now? Just let the guy do what he wants. Why do you want to limit his personal freedom to stream on a site where everyone else is allowed to stream?
It's up to anybody if you hate savior or not. You can also just not tune in his stream if you don't want to see it. I think some controversy and discussion would be good for the scene. Right now it's just dying, pros leaving to the military will not help in the long run.
i'm down for a humble stream. no ego, just educational, good games, dealing with trolls and the criticism, and understanding that he is lucky with what he has now. if it doesn't take off, doesn't do well financially, that is honestly even better. frankly i rather him doing it all without taking a dime of donations until most of the dust as settled and people's concerns have at least been somewhat addressed.
i stress that i hope he doesn't make too much money off of it, because streaming is a volatile thing and there's a whole slew of excuses that can be made for say, shutting down the stream all of a sudden. there's no telling how much truth lies in those kinds of excuses.
i guess i'm trying to say that transparency is key, even at the cost of himself and his enjoyment. you have to build trust back up again.
I remember watching this as a kid and getting so fucking hyped. Then Savior literally destroyed everyone two years later.
Fuck Savior.
EDIT: I'm in the same sentiment as Stork - I don't give a shit if he streams, but don't fucking stream BW. Crazy to think he still has somewhat of a fan base in Korea, although I'm guessing most of them are Terror/Britney apologists who thrive off Savior-related drama.
If you think about it, he could stream anything, why not broodwar? People that disagree can simply not support him. Not being able to compete in esports for the rest of his life is already a fitting punishment that he probably regrets everyday, no need to deserve him worse.
Anyone who advocates for his reintroduction to any competitive scene ought to themselves be censored and ostracized from this community for their bleeding ignorance.
However, I'd argue that he's still a star by trade and he ought to be allowed to flaunt it like any other. Matchfixing, although a breach of contract and something he has paid duly and dearly for, is not definitively an abuse of celebrity. Let the man stream and work on his brand under the new, obvious limitations that will need to be set on him.
On December 15 2017 03:27 ArvickHero wrote: what is this young guy bullshit excuse
He was 23. You could be almost done with a masters degree at that age. When I was 23 I never felt like my age was an excuse for anything stupid or malicious.
On average your prefrontal cortext will be developed at 25 years of age. To coin it in basic terms, let's call this the center of your brains rationality.
Referring to yourself as an argument is an anecdotal fallacy.
20 is the legal age in Korea. It is also the age where you have are expected to know and take on the full responsibility for your actions. I don't know if any country babies people until they're 25, but perhaps Savior could immigrate there. Its not like this was something really complicated... Hmmm... should I do something illegal...? Hmmm... So hard..... Hmmm... should I also invite my coworkers to this matchfixing gang and jeopardize the scene any further..? Oh noes my lack of fully developed prefrontal corex!
greatest comment in this whole thread.
anyways, it's not like they didn't teach basic ethics to people playing in the team houses.
people do corrupt stuff when they are 18, people do corrupt stuff when they are 40. Nothing to do with the brain, some people are just shit.
On December 15 2017 03:27 ArvickHero wrote: what is this young guy bullshit excuse
He was 23. You could be almost done with a masters degree at that age. When I was 23 I never felt like my age was an excuse for anything stupid or malicious.
On average your prefrontal cortext will be developed at 25 years of age. To coin it in basic terms, let's call this the center of your brains rationality.
Referring to yourself as an argument is an anecdotal fallacy.
20 is the legal age in Korea. It is also the age where you have are expected to know and take on the full responsibility for your actions. I don't know if any country babies people until they're 25, but perhaps Savior could immigrate there. Its not like this was something really complicated... Hmmm... should I do something illegal...? Hmmm... So hard..... Hmmm... should I also invite my coworkers to this matchfixing gang and jeopardize the scene any further..? Oh noes my lack of fully developed prefrontal corex!
greatest comment in this whole thread.
greatest because it shows the utter lack of perspective of these supposed college educated (or maybe not) posters. like you are expecting a bunch of high school educated/high school dropouts (and only these sort of individuals mingling about in 1 little teamhouse) to never receive bad gangster-esque influence and/or make terrible immature decisions, ever. like Kespa ever continued to provide them with education and proper post career guidance like most top sports academies do even in the past. and then suddenly expecting them to MATURE when they grow older like its some sort of magic spell.
I heard he was very arogant, rude and cocky in his prime. Then after he had a poor showing in 08-09 he turned to corruption. A very selfish and manipulative individual from what I've read
I consider myself a hardliner and thought of Savior as a scumbag when this happened, but it's been 10 years and all he wants is to stream BW. I'm personally not gonna support him but I think it's time to let it go. This doesn't seem like a huge deal to me. It won't hurt BW to forgive him after all this time.
Im all for second chances in life. I hope he can realize what he did so wrong and lead a good life filled with happiness.
What he shouldn't get is a second chance at StarCraft. There is nothing for him there, and to allow him to return would be such a slap in the face of all those he harmed that still play the game today (as in every former pro team player that makes a living off Afreeca)
Saviour Fanboys: A plague upon TL. Saviour always looked like a douche, and turned out to be a douche. He had a reign of dominance, it was quite impressive I guess. So not only do the fans of this guy fall into the "blindly follow the winner" category, but they are wayyyy behind. They're like your dad's friend who tells you that no good music has been released since 1972 or some bullshit. And if a zerg ever plays a macro game well, then they're "almost Savioresque". Nevermind the fact that Savior had basically 0 APM and would lose to Juni or PerfectMan if they played today. OH WAIT THEY CAN'T BECAUSE SAVIOR IS A DIRTY CHEATER AND IS DISGRACED. Thank God.
Fun Fact: These guys love to claim that Savior is the reason the word bonjwa came into existence, which is entirely wrong.
Fun Fact #2: This guy earned a whole bunch of extra fame when he announced he would "destroy everyone in 2009". This was because he's "one of those funny Asian guys" and yet he spoke English. I assure you, it was quite amazing.
Redeeming features: They won't get you kicked off a progaming team, unlike the actual Savior.
-------------------------------
Savior is scum. All the people who know him personally, the people who can actually speak Korean, they can all see it. Most of his fanboys on here, defending him even now, would have no idea what kind of person he is. All they know is he won some games and he spoke some English one time. Maybe stop and pay attention to the people who know a little more about the situation here, I see lots of posts going into detail about *current* events and the reaction of others in the scene to him, and then a million fanboy posts just going but surely he's had a chance to change after ten years!
Yes we are all aware of what he did, it was awful and it hurt the game.
Now we want to watch him play again because it's fun and interesting and he was really good. I'm saying this as a Nada fan that always rooted against Savior back in the day.
On December 15 2017 14:06 orvinreyes wrote: nice poll, nice bickering, as if this thread has any influence whether he'll be allowed to stream again or not
leave the matter to the koreans
Notice the nationalities in this thread hating savior vs loving savior
On December 15 2017 00:53 ICanFlyLow wrote: Why is savior getting this unfair treatment when there have been other progamers who have conspired to matchfixing but havn't suffered the same consequences even when caught doing so.
sAviOr was the first big name player to get caught, he hurt the image of the game and the industry because of his star status. A ton of people in the KR BW/esports scene lost their livelihoods because of him.. What he did had a massive impact on the people around him, it isn't up to us decide whether or not he should be forgiven.
People are forgiven for murder, this is starcraft. How many years is enough?
Also, I'm tired of people using game-fixing as a scapegoat for the decline of this scene. It's just not true, there are so many other reasons people don't have good jobs in this scene.
On December 15 2017 03:27 ArvickHero wrote: what is this young guy bullshit excuse
He was 23. You could be almost done with a masters degree at that age. When I was 23 I never felt like my age was an excuse for anything stupid or malicious.
On average your prefrontal cortext will be developed at 25 years of age. To coin it in basic terms, let's call this the center of your brains rationality.
Referring to yourself as an argument is an anecdotal fallacy.
20 is the legal age in Korea. It is also the age where you have are expected to know and take on the full responsibility for your actions. I don't know if any country babies people until they're 25, but perhaps Savior could immigrate there. Its not like this was something really complicated... Hmmm... should I do something illegal...? Hmmm... So hard..... Hmmm... should I also invite my coworkers to this matchfixing gang and jeopardize the scene any further..? Oh noes my lack of fully developed prefrontal corex!
greatest comment in this whole thread.
greatest because it shows the utter lack of perspective of these supposed college educated (or maybe not) posters. like you are expecting a bunch of high school educated/high school dropouts (and only these sort of individuals mingling about in 1 little teamhouse) to never receive bad gangster-esque influence and/or make terrible immature decisions, ever. like Kespa ever continued to provide them with education and proper post career guidance like most top sports academies do even in the past. and then suddenly expecting them to MATURE when they grow older like its some sort of magic spell.
Yeah I agree, progamers like Savior are probably NOT normal for any sort of age-related expectations. To my knowledge, progamers go into progaming and sacrifice their education, social life, and face an uncertain future in an uncertain field. They don't have a normal upbringing, or education. Like yeah, they should probably know the difference between right and wrong, but at the same time they are also extremely naive and easily influenced.
That said, I have no problem with him streaming, but I don't think he should stream BW.
On December 15 2017 14:06 orvinreyes wrote: nice poll, nice bickering, as if this thread has any influence whether he'll be allowed to stream again or not
leave the matter to the koreans
Notice the nationalities in this thread hating savior vs loving savior
I'm American and I play Zerg and I think he's a terrible person. He just sees an opportunity to make some quick cash off StarCraft because people know who he is.
On December 15 2017 14:06 orvinreyes wrote: nice poll, nice bickering, as if this thread has any influence whether he'll be allowed to stream again or not
leave the matter to the koreans
Notice the nationalities in this thread hating savior vs loving savior
I seriously wonder how much of his enduring popularity is just because he spoke English that one time >_>
No KeSPA, new Remastered game, been almost 8 years which covered SC2 switch, post KeSPA era, downfall of Sonic, rise of Afreeca and launch of SC:R. It's time to let him back.
Good lord guys he's just asking to stream it. So what if he makes a little money off of laddering on his stream? He won't make any by match fixing on it.
Tournaments? Definitely not. Streaming? There's no justification for letting him not stream other than bitterness and hate. Yeah, he seems like a douche and he hurt the scene but it's not why it died, so get over it. Him streaming doesn't hurt anyone.
I'm not the one who should judge what he should do, I don't know anything about him. But why don't he just do something else ? There are tons of beautiful things in life, I fail to see why he wants to come back to starcraft or gaming so bad. It's actually quite sad to see him on his knees for that.
On December 15 2017 19:12 Waxangel wrote: the apology rings hollow
he's had so much time to apologize, and yet he picks this particular time because he thinks he can benefit financially
selfish to the end
lets be honest here,u can pick any time and it will never be the right one.
And lets also be honest here how much savior will win anyway,as many koreans pointed he is not the shit anymore,he is not even good in starcraft.We re in 2018 and we have a guy that did a terrible damage many years ago begging forgiveness on his knees,hell i read an interview that savior played terran vs gorush cuz the msl wasnt getting many viewers and cuz his terran was actually decent,thats how he got his zvt to the next lvl,but the original story changed over the years,and the bw forums warriors will link articles that are made to sell and link tv shows that are made to sell and we are still attacking this human like he is a serial killer,yeah he has a shitty personality blah blah blah,cuz berseker a guy that takes any oportunity or best or wathever are now making videos on youtube to clickbait said so,honestly this is very sad.
there is a human on his knees that apologizes,maybe he needs to do the walk of shame like Cersei ?
On December 15 2017 19:12 Waxangel wrote: the apology rings hollow
he's had so much time to apologize, and yet he picks this particular time because he thinks he can benefit financially
selfish to the end
lets be honest here,u can pick any time and it will never be the right one.
And lets also be honest here how much savior will win anyway,as many koreans pointed he is not the shit anymore,he is not even good in starcraft.We re in 2018 and we have a guy that did a terrible damage many years ago begging forgiveness on his knees,hell i read an interview that savior played terran vs gorush cuz the msl wasnt getting many viewers and cuz his terran was actually decent,thats how he got his zvt to the next lvl,but the original story changed over the years,and the bw forums warriors will link articles that are made to sell and link tv shows that are made to sell and we are still attacking this human like he is a serial killer,yeah he has a shitty personality blah blah blah,cuz berseker a guy that takes any oportunity or best or wathever are now making videos on youtube to clickbait said so,honestly this is very sad.
there is a human on his knees that apologizes,maybe he needs to do the walk of shame like Cersei ?
you're being overdramatic eon, its not like he can't do other things in life, its just that his easiest way of making money happens to be the one thing he isn't allowed to do, with good reason.
I mean for real I think the way it is right now you could destroy him at the game.
I’m still a Savior fan but the guy can’t be allowed back. It’s one thing to broadcast some hollow apology but if he’s truly remorseful he’ll understand he has to suck up the consequences of what he did. He is BW’s Lance Armstrong. Fine, accept the apology but he sold out BW and lost his right to benefit from it.
The hollow hatred of korean netizens will never cease to amaze me. The country has had decades of bullying stars in the public eye to grow up and develop and yet their examples we have here still haven't reached western standards of humanity and tolerance.
The people we used to look at from afar and laugh at are now leading our community's mindset using the ramblings of emotionally stunted teenagers to justify their hatred.
On December 15 2017 20:28 r33k wrote: The hollow hatred of korean netizens will never cease to amaze me. The country has had decades of bullying stars in the public eye to grow up and develop and yet their examples we have here still haven't reached western standards of humanity and tolerance.
The people we used to look at from afar and laugh at are now leading our community's mindset using the ramblings of emotionally stunted teenagers to justify their hatred.
On December 15 2017 18:39 Arrian wrote: There's no justification for letting him not stream other than bitterness and hate.
Maybe read the thread and educate yourself then? Your ignorance doesn't make your statement any less stupid.
Excuse me, but I was around much earlier than you. I know the story well, and I have read the thread. I know why people don't like him, and obviously when I say there's no reason to not let him stream other than bitterness and hate I mean is that whatever justifications people offer, their firm belief that he is an opportunisitic douche is not sufficient grounds to deny him the right to profit from streaming. News flash: there are lots and lots of people who profit from streaming or used to profit from streaming that are opportunisitic douches.
I get that savior should never ever play in a tournament again. I completely agree with that. But it's just streaming, for goodness' sake...
On December 15 2017 04:52 L_Master wrote: On an unrelated note, I don't understand why people want to watch Savior. I could see why they might be interested in his thoughts on the pro scene or other players, but watching him play Starcraft? He's an ancient history great that is now, being generous, decidedly mediocre at the pro level.
What's the draw there?
Because obviously this opinion is pretty narrow minded. He has this touch and mindgame pretty unique and he is much easier to connect with than other players like effort (which is a very subjective point of view for sure, though shared by many). That is to remind you that if the whole purpose of watching a zerg stream was how he compares to other players, then why would you watch anyone else than Effort? So come on let's stop this narrow minded reasoning about what is worth to watch or not.
he basicly had a 10 year ban .... its enough he seems to grew ... let him back in ,,, he already lost all his archievments just for god sake let him stream its not like he wanna be back in tournaments just let him stream
On December 15 2017 11:04 castleeMg wrote: I heard he was very arogant, rude and cocky in his prime. Then after he had a poor showing in 08-09 he turned to corruption. A very selfish and manipulative individual from what I've read
and he got a 10year ban for it already and a lifetime ban from all tournaments ... just let him stream it hurts NO one and its nice to watch him again
On December 15 2017 22:10 noname_ wrote: I forgot how it was figured out that they were matchfixing. Could someone tell the story in a nutshell please?
If he loves StarCraft so much, why won't he play without stream? I guess he doesn't love StarCraft that much ;
In my opinion only Koreans should be allowed to decide of this matter. They know more details than any one of us, also there is a difference in culture between us that we foreigners couldn't understand. We judge Saviour by our own values and Koreans may have very different values, so please respect that.
On December 15 2017 22:47 Bonyth wrote: If he loves StarCraft so much, why won't he play without stream? I guess he doesn't love StarCraft that much ;
In my opinion only Koreans should be allowed to decide of this matter. They know more details than any one of us, also there is a difference in culture between us that we foreigners couldn't understand. We judge Saviour by our own values and Koreans may have very different values, so please respect that.
He has a big fan base.. why wouldn't he want to stream?
And.. this is also a public forum.. obviously people are going to discuss it.
On December 15 2017 19:12 Waxangel wrote: the apology rings hollow
he's had so much time to apologize, and yet he picks this particular time because he thinks he can benefit financially
selfish to the end
lets be honest here,u can pick any time and it will never be the right one.
And lets also be honest here how much savior will win anyway,as many koreans pointed he is not the shit anymore,he is not even good in starcraft.We re in 2018 and we have a guy that did a terrible damage many years ago begging forgiveness on his knees,hell i read an interview that savior played terran vs gorush cuz the msl wasnt getting many viewers and cuz his terran was actually decent,thats how he got his zvt to the next lvl,but the original story changed over the years,and the bw forums warriors will link articles that are made to sell and link tv shows that are made to sell and we are still attacking this human like he is a serial killer,yeah he has a shitty personality blah blah blah,cuz berseker a guy that takes any oportunity or best or wathever are now making videos on youtube to clickbait said so,honestly this is very sad.
there is a human on his knees that apologizes,maybe he needs to do the walk of shame like Cersei ?
you're being overdramatic eon, its not like he can't do other things in life, its just that his easiest way of making money happens to be the one thing he isn't allowed to do, with good reason.
I mean for real I think the way it is right now you could destroy him at the game.
blind maybe im wrong but for me an easy way of making money doesnt include getting insulted by countless people and with the need of kneeing and saying sorry,We are in 2018 already,we dont need to act like our ancesters.
is not about me winning savior,tell me if you wouldnt be happy to watch chojja yellow boxer etc etc,savior is the only zerg bonjwa.and for the good and for the bad he is BW history,sadly he is the yin and the yang we all agree with that,but not allowing him to stream starcraft for starcraft fans ? ASL official competitions etc he is banned forever;i remember watching savior in the terror starleague and winning it vs anytime in the final,is was amazing;and that was many years past his prime.anyway i dont think this thread will change much,is not up to us to decide,the only that will change is some koreans journals talking about this and using articles to get money.
On December 15 2017 22:47 Bonyth wrote: If he loves StarCraft so much, why won't he play without stream? I guess he doesn't love StarCraft that much ;
He has been playing quiet a bit, he never really stopped tbh.
I say given that it has been such a long time and that I believe in second chances, let the man play the game that he loves. I don't know if Koreans will ever allow him to compete again, but for all I care he can sure as hell stream whatever he wants. And honestly every time you see a Zerg play, chances are it's based on what savior brought to the race.
On December 15 2017 22:47 Bonyth wrote: If he loves StarCraft so much, why won't he play without stream? I guess he doesn't love StarCraft that much ;
In my opinion only Koreans should be allowed to decide of this matter. They know more details than any one of us, also there is a difference in culture between us that we foreigners couldn't understand. We judge Saviour by our own values and Koreans may have very different values, so please respect that.
So much this. I was going to post something very similar but Bonyth said it in a great way, so I don't have as much to add.
We can discuss the matters here but we do so from our side of the sea and based on values we developed as a result of our atmosphere. Savior's fate should be decided by the community from which he came and whose rules he violated and whom he hurt most directly. People pushing their morality onto the situation in saying he should be forgiven need to realize that your moral codex isn't somehow superior just because you are taking what you subjectively perceive to be the "high road" and most likely you can't grasp the situation in its entirety because of the cultural differences. As someone said earlier in the thread, think about what country the people who accept his apology and deny his apology are largely from. This is basic anthropological ethics.
The OP poll is kinda messed up. It doesnt capture the feelings of the public.
I suggest:
Poll: Should Savior be allowed to stream BW?
No. Forgiven but face the consequences (no exposure/profit) (23)
43%
Yes. Forgiven and second chance. (19)
35%
No. And not forvgiven. He destroyed BW! (12)
22%
54 total votes
Your vote: Should Savior be allowed to stream BW?
(Vote): Yes. Forgiven and second chance. (Vote): No. Forgiven but face the consequences (no exposure/profit) (Vote): No. And not forvgiven. He destroyed BW!
No. Forgive or not, it will affect negatively on the current Afreeca BW scene (7)
100%
7 total votes
Your vote: Savior streaming BW on Afreeca
(Vote): No. Forgive or not, it will affect negatively on the current Afreeca BW scene
On December 15 2017 04:57 RCCar wrote:
-> What would be the problem with him streaming/ coming into mainstream starcraft?
8. Starcraft in the Korean scene, is just recently coming into popularity again, with OGN even considering a starcraft league. (They haven't said anything about it since, but haven't retracted their statement officially so still praying). For potential sponsors, former matchfixers such as Savior playing the game, and the community endorsing such actions, will more than likely harm their image sponsoring. In Korea, public opinion is overwhelmingly negative. For Starcraft to get big sponsors again, the scene has to show they do not condone illegal/ dangerous actions. Streamers like Larva or Best leaving Terror as they strive for a more mainstream audience would be one of the examples. I'm not a marketing major, so take these words with a grain of salt. As for the community aspect of it, it is the morality issue that he is making money off of the scene that he has destroyed almost singlehandedly. Now that many former pros make money off of streaming, I think you can imagine the insult they would feel. Hwasin's incident was like this as well, and pros such as firebathero called him out on his hypocrisy.
I guess this isn't going anywhere, just like the Larva topic. Everyone has opinions and shared them already, obviously two big groups at conflict (and a moderate group between). In the end it's up to Afreeca and the Korean scene to resolve this matter. One thing we all can't deny though is that these scandalous topics create a lot of fuzz around SC:R and that (atleast to me) is a good thing. Where do we want this game to go? In a few years most recent progamers are gone for military service, who is going to fill the void? Eventually the level of play will also drop. BW is bound to be declining in the next years, and to me it is better to have some star power to fill the void. Even if it means it is a controversial player like savior. Look into other sports and you will see that cheating or doping stars will only get a temporary ban.
But that's only considering competition. Who in hell would think it's okay to forbid some convicted sports star to make videos / stream the sport he once was good at? This is actually what you guys are advocating for. This guy is a free man and has served his punishment. You are trying to limit his personal freedom justified only with your hatred. It's okay to hate the guy, just don't watch his stream.
On December 15 2017 23:54 CoL_DarkstaR wrote: I guess this isn't going anywhere, just like the Larva topic. Everyone has opinions and shared them already, obviously two big groups at conflict (and a moderate group between). In the end it's up to Afreeca and the Korean scene to resolve this matter. One thing we all can't deny though is that these scandalous topics create a lot of fuzz around SC:R and that (atleast to me) is a good thing. Where do we want this game to go? In a few years most recent progamers are gone for military service, who is going to fill the void? Eventually the level of play will also drop. BW is bound to be declining in the next years, and to me it is better to have some star power to fill the void. Even if it means it is a controversial player like savior. Look into other sports and you will see that cheating or doping stars will only get a temporary ban.
But that's only considering competition. Who in hell would think it's okay to forbid some convicted sports star to make videos / stream the sport he once was good at? This is actually what you guys are advocating for. This guy is a free man and has served his punishment. You are trying to limit his personal freedom justified only with your hatred. It's okay to hate the guy, just don't watch his stream.
The PRIVILEGE of streaming on Afreeca and making money from the game he helped damage is not a "personal freedom" or right. Afreeca and all other streaming companies have the absolute right to revoke this privilege. Doing so in respect to the Korean community is culturally sensitive of the audience and probably for the best of Brood War. If he loves Brood War he can play but don't try to slither back into the spotlight just because you haven't started a career elsewhere.
He's going to find a way to stream if he really wants.. and he will always have fans so... pretty much out of anyone's hands. All anyone can do is either not support him... or make it harder for him to stream.
the poll is missing the option "pls close this thread" its painful both for those who grew being fans of Savior and had their hearts broken and for those who suffered the consequences. Nothing good comes out from opening old wounds.
Saying he shouldn't be allowed to stream is too controlling. Whether you hate him or forgive him or whatever, it should be up to the viewers to decide whether or not he can successfully stream. Feedback is already built into the platform. If there are enough people that want him to stream so that he gets lots of viewers and donations, then so be it, obviously enough of the community forgives him and wants him to stream. If not, then I guess the community still hates him to the point that he can't be successful with BW again.
By trying to ban him from streaming people are effectively forcing their opinions of Savior on others, which I hope most of us can agree is wrong.
Also to be clear I'm not a Savior fanboy. I say fuck him, but again, who am I to tell someone else they shouldn't be able to watch him?
Retribution and forgiveness are both aspects of justice. It's hard to support forgiveness, though, when the reaction of so many is "lol like you've never committed felony fraud and conspiracy before".
Savior is one of the main reasons why a well established platform was destroyed and he did nothing to help rebuild it. Now he wants to cash in on this new rebuilt platform where only the top ex-pros manage to make a living. Are you fucking joking? Even if his apology is sincere - which it clearly isn't - he doesn't deserve to make money of BW. Most definitely not via Afreeca. It's a huge insult to all the people's careers he helped destroy and many of its fans! Savior should take a good example of others involved in the matchfixing scandal like Hwasin. All those guys, except for wife beater Luxury seem to at least have decency. (Gee I wonder why I don't see any of them streaming BW.)
Savior threw away his privilege to make money with BW for good, that's the stance of many - if not all - ex-pros. Why would you even argue that? It's very easy to understand. When it comes to making money, he has a million other ways to do it. They may just not be the easiest way to get rich, but that's his own fault. Of course he is free to play BW if he loves it so much.
I'm not impressed by Savior's copy/paste on Light's story about his mom spending 'his earnings' either.
Fuck Savior. And whoever supports him making any more money with BW is being foolish.
On December 16 2017 01:21 Peeano wrote: Savior is one of the main reasons why a well established platform was destroyed and he did nothing to help rebuild it. Now he wants to cash in on this new rebuilt platform where only the top ex-pros manage to make a living. Are you fucking joking? Even if his apology is sincere - which it clearly isn't - he doesn't deserve to make money of BW. Most definitely not via Afreeca. It's a huge insult to all the people's careers he helped destroy and many of its fans! Savior should take a good example of others involved in the matchfixing scandal like Hwasin. All those guys, except for wife beater Luxury seem to at least have decency. (Gee I wonder why I don't see any of them streaming BW.)
Savior threw away his privilege to make money with BW for good, that's the stance of many - if not all - ex-pros. Why would you even argue that? It's very easy to understand. When it comes to making money, he has a million other ways to do it. They may just not be the easiest way to get rich, but that's his own fault. Of course he is free to play BW if he loves it so much.
I'm not impressed by Savior's copy/paste on Light's story about his mom spending 'his earnings' either.
Fuck Savior. And whoever supports him making any more money with BW is being foolish.
you are being foolish if you think Afreeca is about BW,do u even remember how all these ex-pros use to blame afreeca streamers ? + i Heard before that koreans dont like afreeca in general or afreeca streamers.and dont fool yourself.The only people that are getting big benefits from afreeca are the big names.as i said before im not even sure savior with his actual bw skill and his said shitty personality will gain something from afreeca.afreeca is based in donations from viewers.
On December 15 2017 18:39 Arrian wrote: There's no justification for letting him not stream other than bitterness and hate.
Maybe read the thread and educate yourself then? Your ignorance doesn't make your statement any less stupid.
Excuse me, but I was around much earlier than you. I know the story well, and I have read the thread. I know why people don't like him, and obviously when I say there's no reason to not let him stream other than bitterness and hate I mean is that whatever justifications people offer, their firm belief that he is an opportunisitic douche is not sufficient grounds to deny him the right to profit from streaming. News flash: there are lots and lots of people who profit from streaming or used to profit from streaming that are opportunisitic douches.
I get that savior should never ever play in a tournament again. I completely agree with that. But it's just streaming, for goodness' sake...
Around where? Registered on one of the English BW forums that is TL? And it's not like the date even matters, considering I finally registered on a special date. In the same useless fashion I could say that I have 5000+ posts in the BW section, much more than you. Anyway, if you have actually read the thread, then you must have brushed the completely rational reasons such as community perception and sponsor interests aside, either out of ignorance or something else. Whether people like him or not is a completely different matter.
I actually find Boxer getting dominated and emasculated by his 'wife' a lot more apology-needing than Savior. Boxer actually let his fans down by letting a woman make decisions for him.
On December 16 2017 01:45 YourFavoriteTerran wrote: I actually find Boxer getting dominated and emasculated by his 'wife' a lot more apology-needing than Savior. Boxer actually let his fans down by letting a woman make decisions for him.
Backstory? Also, isn't his wife an actress? Seems too contextual to make that claim when she's doing quite well for herself.
On December 15 2017 22:47 Bonyth wrote: If he loves StarCraft so much, why won't he play without stream? I guess he doesn't love StarCraft that much ;
In my opinion only Koreans should be allowed to decide of this matter. They know more details than any one of us, also there is a difference in culture between us that we foreigners couldn't understand. We judge Saviour by our own values and Koreans may have very different values, so please respect that.
He has a big fan base.. why wouldn't he want to stream?
And.. this is also a public forum.. obviously people are going to discuss it.
The majority of the korean and foreign communities despise him.
On December 16 2017 01:21 Peeano wrote: Savior is one of the main reasons why a well established platform was destroyed and he did nothing to help rebuild it. Now he wants to cash in on this new rebuilt platform where only the top ex-pros manage to make a living. Are you fucking joking? Even if his apology is sincere - which it clearly isn't - he doesn't deserve to make money of BW. Most definitely not via Afreeca. It's a huge insult to all the people's careers he helped destroy and many of its fans! Savior should take a good example of others involved in the matchfixing scandal like Hwasin. All those guys, except for wife beater Luxury seem to at least have decency. (Gee I wonder why I don't see any of them streaming BW.)
Savior threw away his privilege to make money with BW for good, that's the stance of many - if not all - ex-pros. Why would you even argue that? It's very easy to understand. When it comes to making money, he has a million other ways to do it. They may just not be the easiest way to get rich, but that's his own fault. Of course he is free to play BW if he loves it so much.
I'm not impressed by Savior's copy/paste on Light's story about his mom spending 'his earnings' either.
Fuck Savior. And whoever supports him making any more money with BW is being foolish.
you are being foolish if you think Afreeca is about BW,do u even remember how all these ex-pros use to blame afreeca streamers ? + i Heard before that koreans dont like afreeca in general or afreeca streamers.and dont fool yourself.The only people that are getting big benefits from afreeca are the big names.as i said before im not even sure savior with his actual bw skill and his said shitty personality will gain something from afreeca.afreeca is based in donations from viewers.
I wasn't saying Afreeca is BW's platform, it's just a part of it whether people like it or not. Korean BW streamers use Afreeca as their medium since it's the biggest in Korea, hence I mention it in this discussion. But we aren't discussing how Koreans like Afreeca's service are we? I also mention only the top ex-pros. Read more carefully. Anyway... No, I haven't forgotten, hence I'm still mad at Savior for helping destroy careers and BW's vitality.
On December 16 2017 04:36 Mattidute wrote: Where would saviOr even stream? Since KeSPA made an agreement with Twitch Korea and AfreecaTV to not allow any match fixers to stream.
Mods or somebody needs to clear up this whole not streaming at all.
1. He can stream, just not certain games like SCBW SC2 OW LoL.
2. Afreeca has already contacted him about this and warning him.
3. He was never banned from streaming- he just considered other streaming unprofitable and left. He came back in 2016 for a while, left again. This isn’t uncommon for him.
Teamliquid is literally dancing PPAP right now off speculation. And many people are expecting him to stream scbw off of the baitey poll rn.
I voted no on the grounds that him making money off of streaming would be a huge slap in the face to all the pro players who remained loyal over the years.
This is probably a controversial post, but I also say he should be able to stream, even BW. Competition should not be allowed.
He will get one hell of a shitstorm for a reception, like he has likely had to deal with IRL and on his previous attempts to stream. He'll get heckled like no tomorrow and so he should.
The viewers can decide for themselves if they want to support him or not. I don't think many would if he was insincere as better informed posters than I are correct.
On December 16 2017 06:30 DSK wrote: This is probably a controversial post, but I also say he should be able to stream, even BW. Competition should not be allowed.
He will get one hell of a shitstorm for a reception, like he has likely had to deal with IRL and on his previous attempts to stream. He'll get heckled like no tomorrow and so he should.
The viewers can decide for themselves if they want to support him or not. I don't think many would if he was insincere as better informed posters than I are correct.
You do realize this isn't his first time streaming? This is his 3rd cash in
On December 16 2017 03:12 deus_073 wrote: Have any of the other match fixing players been exposed to the public? Playing on stream, tournaments, anything?
other matchfixers have had to go through military service and employment and the social stigma of being a known cheater
savior has never had to find gainful employment or go to the military by claiming some bullshit injury
saviors largely insulated himself to just his obsessed fanbase and milked them and broodwar for a living
let the man find some honest living instead of allowing the scum to milk his fans again
On December 16 2017 03:12 deus_073 wrote: Have any of the other match fixing players been exposed to the public? Playing on stream, tournaments, anything?
other matchfixers have had to go through military service and employment and the social stigma of being a known cheater
savior has never had to find gainful employment or go to the military by claiming some bullshit injury
saviors largely insulated himself to just his obsessed fanbase and milked them and broodwar for a living
let the man find some honest living instead of allowing the scum to milk his fans again
Well it certainly sounds like Savior is a douche from the people that know him, but the faking injury thing might be false. Iris says his knee is really messed up (point 14, in a post otherwise listing all savior's faults):
i really don't see why this is an issue - deciding whether he's allowed to stream or not, or which games, is just pointless regulation. let the individual people decide whether he deserves their views and donations. personally i wouldn't watch, but i don't care if others do.
On December 15 2017 02:10 CoL_DarkstaR wrote: Let the guy prove he's serious. He should contribute to the scene instead of merely milking his fans with donations. But why not let the guy apologize and do something for the community? He could do so many different things, like setting up leagues, commentating them, making tutorials, trying to forge a team of newcomers and train them.
On December 16 2017 13:14 ShambhalaWar wrote: I'd like to ask again since I got no answer... How many years is enough punishment?
People are forgiven for murder, this is starcraft.
When his apology comes off as sincere and not with the not so subtle innuendo of "I just wanna make money off of you dumbasses again" You don't forgive someone because n years have passed, you forgive because he repents what he did wrong and is ready to live a life unrelated to all of his past.
On December 16 2017 13:14 ShambhalaWar wrote: I'd like to ask again since I got no answer... How many years is enough punishment?
People are forgiven for murder, this is starcraft.
You are comparing two completely different things.
Sometimes, a murderer is forgiven because it is his or her life what is at stake; nobody owns his or her life. On the other hand, StarCraft and streaming platforms such as AfreecaTV are proprietary entities; in some sense, they reserve the right to ban anyone from using their services.
On December 16 2017 13:14 ShambhalaWar wrote: I'd like to ask again since I got no answer... How many years is enough punishment?
People are forgiven for murder, this is starcraft.
You are comparing two completely different things.
Sometimes, a murderer is forgiven because it is his or her life what is at stake; nobody owns his or her life. On the other hand, StarCraft and streaming platforms such as AfreecaTV are proprietary entities; in some sense, they reserve the right to ban anyone from using their services.
I don't understand your argument, and you don't seem to understand mine.
If people can forgive each other for the taking of someone's life... then it should be possible to forgive someone for cheating in a video game.
How much punishment is enough for the world to say he has paid for past mistakes?
And murder is forgiven not because of some copyright TM on life... It's forgiven because people understand how much of an empty gesture vengeance is, and how it poisons the soul. Also, because the nature of compassion is opposite. There is no amount of pain someone can deliver onto another person to resolve the suffering they internally feel. Inflicting pain is a positive feedback cycle of suffering.
On December 16 2017 13:14 ShambhalaWar wrote: I'd like to ask again since I got no answer... How many years is enough punishment?
People are forgiven for murder, this is starcraft.
When his apology comes off as sincere and not with the not so subtle innuendo of "I just wanna make money off of you dumbasses again" You don't forgive someone because n years have passed, you forgive because he repents what he did wrong and is ready to live a life unrelated to all of his past.
That argument makes sense to me.
But can you truly know his motivation (if he has not explicitly stated it)?
On December 16 2017 06:54 CHEONSOYUN wrote: saviors largely insulated himself to just his obsessed fanbase and milked them and broodwar for a living
let the man find some honest living instead of allowing the scum to milk his fans again
broodwar is a thing you can milk? huh...
his fans are unable to think for themselves and we must protect them from being milked? huh...
the more you know
the larger point i was making was replying to the inquiry as to whether other matchfixers have had to face a similar kind of social repercussion to their involvement with the incident;
savior notably has not faced these repurcussions, despite being A: the senior accomplished player and rolemodel to the younger players, and B: the one who helped coordinate the match fixing and the distribution of cash and instructions.
and he's avoided it by avoiding the military and avoiding employment by making money off the game he stepped all over. it's not even making money it's accepting it from fans who still devotedly follow him despite all his horrendous actions. despite whatever you might of their right to do so, you cannot disagree that it's a pretty sick way to continue your existence after being condemned by the community you poisoned.
10 years of milking his fans and showing no remorse for cheating and dragging younger players into an illegal betting ring. that isn't 10 years of punishment, it's 10 years of being a little fucker who clearly doesn't give a shit.
if you want a real apology go read hwasin's interview, who actually had to live with it and accept the consequences of what he had done.
Q: Then you moved to the military service, it wasn't that painful in the army right?
A: Actually quite the opposite. In boot camp since everyone was around the same age, everybody was aware of the matchfixing. Not only the seniors but even the officers would interrogate me and discipline me. Ofcourse there were some people who liked me as a person, they were the ones who got me through it. I tried to see it as that my life in the military was as difficult as everyone else's, and spent alot of time thinking. Why did I do this, I asked myself a thousand times "why".
Q: In those difficult times, what words made you feel the worst?
A: There are no BW leagues now, even today it just doesn't feel real to me. But the words that make me feel the worst are "The ball that was passed down by so many seniors was lost in an instant in the hands of people like you."Regardless of whether this is true, it was because of my instantaneous error and personal ignorance that caused these accusations, they make me feel very difficult.
A: I did everything after retiring. I even went to the hiring boards in labour markets, I did manual labour, worked in delivery, and laboured in some net-cafes, I also tried to work in a coffee shop as a cashier and made coffee. I really want to open a coffee shop, one where you make the coffee completely manually, even if it's very small. In that process to find a direction I met an executive in a company, and started working as a secretary. Now I try to learn from many different types of people that I meet.
savior has done none of that kind of contemplation or had to live with the consequences of his actions.
as a bonus you get to read a little bit of savior offering hwasin the money and instructions on how to throw the game.
i see a lot of people who want to forgive; i'm telling you that there are plenty of people who deserve that forgiveness and have strived to change and better themselves in spite of what they had done
savior has not changed and has not tried to change, nor has he pleaded for forgiveness until now that he's broke.
he was not naive or stupid; his involvement was not a mistake or a series of mistakes, it was a series of despicable actions that involved dragging other younger players into his schemes to make money from broodwar.
I've thought about this quite a bit. First and firemost, Savior should not be allowed to participate in any BW tournaments. In terms of streaming, he's free to stream whatever he wants except BW. As much as anyone wants to disagree, the whole matchfixing scandal was the start of the end of the scene. Teams disbanded, sponsors ran away etc...
Also, while I don't know his intentions, he's streamed several times in the past and it's never ended well. Heard that it was somewhat bad the last time. My thoughts are with the KR posters in this thread. As much as I want to believe that he cares about the game and acknowledges his mistakes, I highly doubt it from all the info I've come across.
The scene is currently recovering and despite losing ZerO, Bisu and likely other players, it's still in a decent shape. We don't really need him back. BTW, L_Master, the difference between Savior and Lance Armstrong is that afaik, the cycling scene is still trucking along. Sure, the doping or w/e it was revelations probably hurt but it never collapsed. On the other hand, I'm positive that a lot of folks believe that Savior played a big hand in destroying the BW scene. From that perspective, it's extremely easy to see why him streaming and making money off a game that he had a big role in killing its scene leaves a bad taste in the mouth of many folks.
I saw someone mention about featuring or at least adding his stream on TL. Highly doubt that TL will actually move forward with adding his stream, even if it unfeatured. Best thing for anyone who wants to watch is to get the link and randomly check at the normal streaming hours.
No professional sport exists without doping (in general). People are so ignorant, that things like a positive doping test still gets into the news. I think people have this false impression that most of the atheltes don`t use anything because they`re weren`t caught by a pee-test. But on the contrary.
On December 16 2017 06:30 DSK wrote: This is probably a controversial post, but I also say he should be able to stream, even BW. Competition should not be allowed.
He will get one hell of a shitstorm for a reception, like he has likely had to deal with IRL and on his previous attempts to stream. He'll get heckled like no tomorrow and so he should.
The viewers can decide for themselves if they want to support him or not. I don't think many would if he was insincere as better informed posters than I are correct.
You do realize this isn't his first time streaming? This is his 3rd cash in
Yes, jinjin, I stated such in my post. So why is this the third time of trying? If the South Korean posters such as yourself (or perhaps based in Korea at this time) are correct in that sAviOr is insincere and dishonest, and generally an individual with no good qualities, this will reflect in the community's reactions to his stream and content. Perhaps there is something on the Afreeca platform that I am not aware of that will make him a ton of money despite his status and that is why you are against my perspective? However, I can appreciate the fact that some believe he would further impact the BW scene which has come on leaps and bounds in the last few years.
By all means, feel free to correct me if I am missing anything.
I have a question for koreans here or those who have followed savior post scandal.
One of the reasons people bring up why they can't forgive savior is that he is an asshole and is just being opportunistic not that he needs money. And that he this is insincere and that he wouldn't do this if he was earning better. Any truth to this? Proof?
On December 15 2017 00:52 Peeano wrote: Listen to Iris, Stork and Best. Savior destroyed a great thing and the guy is still bullshitting, cuz he only cares about ez money.
Come on, even some prisoners get a second chance. Savior didn't kill anyone, let him have a second chance. Stop living in the stone age.
On December 16 2017 17:00 BigFan wrote: I've thought about this quite a bit. First and firemost, Savior should not be allowed to participate in any BW tournaments. In terms of streaming, he's free to stream whatever he wants except BW. As much as anyone wants to disagree, the whole matchfixing scandal was the start of the end of the scene. Teams disbanded, sponsors ran away etc...
Also, while I don't know his intentions, he's streamed several times in the past and it's never ended well. Heard that it was somewhat bad the last time. My thoughts are with the KR posters in this thread. As much as I want to believe that he cares about the game and acknowledges his mistakes, I highly doubt it from all the info I've come across.
The scene is currently recovering and despite losing ZerO, Bisu and likely other players, it's still in a decent shape. We don't really need him back. BTW, L_Master, the difference between Savior and Lance Armstrong is that afaik, the cycling scene is still trucking along. Sure, the doping or w/e it was revelations probably hurt but it never collapsed. On the other hand, I'm positive that a lot of folks believe that Savior played a big hand in destroying the BW scene. From that perspective, it's extremely easy to see why him streaming and making money off a game that he had a big role in killing its scene leaves a bad taste in the mouth of many folks.
I saw someone mention about featuring or at least adding his stream on TL. Highly doubt that TL will actually move forward with adding his stream, even if it unfeatured. Best thing for anyone who wants to watch is to get the link and randomly check at the normal streaming hours.
I'm sure BW would have been on decline despite Savior. You have SC2, CS: GO, Overwatch, LoL and many other games now. A single person can't destroy BW. It's just a coincidence. I'm not even a fan of Savior.
The reality is SC2 and BW aren't great at exploiting the current "e-sports" scene commercially. Yet, I still play those games from time to time.
On December 15 2017 00:52 Peeano wrote: Listen to Iris, Stork and Best. Savior destroyed a great thing and the guy is still bullshitting, cuz he only cares about ez money.
Come on, even some prisoners get a second chance. Savior didn't kill anyone, let him have a second chance. Stop living in the stone age.
Savior does get a second chance. Just not with BW. A convicted child abuser gets a second chance after serving time, but will never be allowed again to be a school teacher, know what Im saying?
It would set a really bad precedent if Savior was allowed to come back in any significant way (anything that lets him make money off the scene). The threat of match fixing isn't going away, it's been around as long as professional sports. Maybe it was rooted out from BW for a while BECAUSE HE GOT CAUGHT, but if the scene keeps growing it's only a matter of time before someone tries it again. It's probably even easier these days, with cryptocurrencies making it easier to anonymously transfer cash without even being seen together with the person paying bribes. Letting Savior come back would send a message that it's not that bad, even if you're caught you'll be forgiven if you beg enough.
Imagine being some up-and-coming young BW player these days. You can work your ass off and maybe win some tiny prize money. You can't even really win the top prizes, since you'll inevitably lose to Flash or one of the other top players, but *maybe* you can win like $500 and get a few fans. Or you can take a bribe, make 10 times as much money with no risk and way less effort. I doubt there's any serious effort to police them and stop it from happening. It's mostly just community norms making people believe that it's wrong. And that's a very fragile thing.
The Maestro actually used to be my favourite zerg back in the klazart/diggity days of youtube casts. Can't say how honest he is, I'm sure he regrets it, but everybody does once they're caught. Letting him stream should be fine though, it's not like he'll enter tournaments, but maybe he can inspire others to or coach them.
I'm sorry but what do you mean going back to streaming? Did he ever stop? Last stream video I saw was from 2015 & I'm pretty sure he kept playing after that.
I was around during the Savior incident. It was really bad.
My first thought while reading this thread was that after so many years we can forgive Savior. I still believe that. Please let me explain.
On the one hand my opinion on criminals is that they deserve a second chance in life, mostly because I believe in freedom above almost everything else. I think it's important to rehabilitate people as efficiently as possible. Exclusion (like prison) is only productive to a certain extent. At some point it becomes too much. I believe most criminals should be released as soon as possible. Very few criminals should never be released.
That being said, context matters. Letting Savior stream BW is a specific question, not just anything. Is this in particular a good idea or not? I myself am trying to look at it from a practical point of view: How likely is it that Savior will mess up again in some way? Because essentially I think that's the only question we need to answer. Whatever else happens only concerns him. Can he deal with the expectable repercussions or not? That's on him to decide. My answer to the question of what risk Savior poses to BW is: I can't read his mind. Some people here are talking about his sincerity. I'm sorry, but you can't know whether he's sincere or not unless you have specific knowledge about his intent. It's very, very hard to prove intent. Also, I don't see a significant chance of him messing up again considering the consequences this would have on his life. No man in his right mind would do this to himself twice for so little gain comparatively. Do you disagree?
But there's more to consider. How will welcoming Savior back affect other would-be criminals? I don't really know. What has happened to him so far is pretty common knowledge. Anyone new to the scene who's never heard and will never hear of Savior won't be affected by the decision either way, so this is only for those who know some BW history. To me this means it's not a concern.
So, all in all I think letting Savior come back and stream BW seems acceptable, I actually think it's pretty clearly the best decision. In my opinion forgiveness is a strength that should be practiced in the right cases. I think this is one of them. Whether I'm right or not, I don't know. I can't predict the future.
Whether Savior should also be allowed back into tournaments, I think that should be left entirely to the organizers. If they don't want to have him play, they shouldn't be forced to, or pressured into it. In that case and only in that case I'd be ok with Savior even making a full comeback.
To be honest, the testimonies from his ex-teammates and colleagues of his behavior during his heyday to recent events helps to to reinforce the fact that he should not be allowed to broadcast any content related to Brood War or E-sports in general. Beyond that, one can forgive him and he is free to do what he fancies on stream.
After giving this some thought, here's my opinion (after some contextualization.)
On the context of players being banned from sports for cheating, sAviOr cannot be seen in the same light. He didn't cheat, he went further, as he was supposedly (was it ever really substantially proven?) a central figure in facilitating the match-fixing activities.
On the context of crime, well, this one is fairly easy; he didn't exactly commit murder or whatever, so I feel this is out of context.
On the fact that he - hailed as one of, if not the greatest player to grace the game decided to abuse the weight of his name and influence in the pro circuit is very wrong.
On the context of other similar cases in other esports; I don't really know much but I do know people have been banned from tournaments, leagues and even a game's official ladders so there's that
On the context of the gravity of what he did. Well, this one is so subjective that I'd rather not say anything other than fuck him.
With that said, even if he is genuinely repentant of his actions. You don't exactly allow him back because only he knows how genuine he is and there is no way to prove himself without participating in tournaments means that basically, he had virtually locked himself out of StarCraft. IMO putting aside raw emotion, he can stream BW but never participate in tournaments.
Really find it difficult to believe that people here are supporting Savior's return. He played the biggest role in bringing down Brood War as an e-sport. He's responsible for the ruin of so many people whose livelihood is attached to the game. Relatively speaking, this is way bigger than Michael Vick, Pete Rose, or Lance Armstrong. Those guys committed terrible acts, but none can be credited with killing the sport altogether. I understand that people want to see Savior play, myself included, but that is not nearly a good enough reason to have him return.
It's not about forgiveness, or how the scene will be affected by his return. Savior needs to remain an example to ensure nothing like this happens again.
I would wish Savior luck in pursuing whatever direction he decides to take, but he should NEVER be allowed near Brood War again on any level.
On December 16 2017 17:00 BigFan wrote: I've thought about this quite a bit. First and firemost, Savior should not be allowed to participate in any BW tournaments. In terms of streaming, he's free to stream whatever he wants except BW. As much as anyone wants to disagree, the whole matchfixing scandal was the start of the end of the scene. Teams disbanded, sponsors ran away etc...
Also, while I don't know his intentions, he's streamed several times in the past and it's never ended well. Heard that it was somewhat bad the last time. My thoughts are with the KR posters in this thread. As much as I want to believe that he cares about the game and acknowledges his mistakes, I highly doubt it from all the info I've come across.
The scene is currently recovering and despite losing ZerO, Bisu and likely other players, it's still in a decent shape. We don't really need him back. BTW, L_Master, the difference between Savior and Lance Armstrong is that afaik, the cycling scene is still trucking along. Sure, the doping or w/e it was revelations probably hurt but it never collapsed. On the other hand, I'm positive that a lot of folks believe that Savior played a big hand in destroying the BW scene. From that perspective, it's extremely easy to see why him streaming and making money off a game that he had a big role in killing its scene leaves a bad taste in the mouth of many folks.
I saw someone mention about featuring or at least adding his stream on TL. Highly doubt that TL will actually move forward with adding his stream, even if it unfeatured. Best thing for anyone who wants to watch is to get the link and randomly check at the normal streaming hours.
Strongly agree with this. I really don't see why he has to stream (read: monetize) BW. If he wants to play BW, fine, if he wants to stream other games, also fine.
On a sidenote, if TL were to ever feature his stream I would probably be done posting here. It's fine if some people here want to forgive him, but helping him make living of the game he tried his hardest to ruin is a whole 'nother level of absurdity...
On December 17 2017 14:01 c3rberUs wrote: After giving this some thought, here's my opinion (after some contextualization.)
On the context of players being banned from sports for cheating, sAviOr cannot be seen in the same light. He didn't cheat, he went further, as he was supposedly (was it ever really substantially proven?) a central figure in facilitating the match-fixing activities.
On the context of crime, well, this one is fairly easy; he didn't exactly commit murder or whatever, so I feel this is out of context.
On the fact that he - hailed as one of, if not the greatest player to grace the game decided to abuse the weight of his name and influence in the pro circuit is very wrong.
On the context of other similar cases in other esports; I don't really know much but I do know people have been banned from tournaments, leagues and even a game's official ladders so there's that
On the context of the gravity of what he did. Well, this one is so subjective that I'd rather not say anything other than fuck him.
With that said, even if he is genuinely repentant of his actions. You don't exactly allow him back because only he knows how genuine he is and there is no way to prove himself without participating in tournaments means that basically, he had virtually locked himself out of StarCraft. IMO putting aside raw emotion, he can stream BW but never participate in tournaments.
I think it’s fine for him to play the game again but he shouldn’t be making money from it. You can’t shit on the game like he did, particularly from his position of privilege as one of the all time greats, and expect to profit from BW again.
I think that he can play, enjoy and even stream the game, but making profession or money from BW is not acceptable for someone who hurt the industry as much. Match fixing did effect the whole e-Sports industry and individual lives as the industry was hurt. People lost jobs becouse of him. He was young, but not a kid. He should have already known what is right and what is wrong by the age of 23.
If he would reclaim his bonjwa status, attract a lot of fans (and sponsors) to pay back, then his previous actions can be forgotten.
Like Stork says, if Savior is truly sincere with his apology, then he should also accept that he can't make more money out of BW.
There is something that doesn't dissapear from my mind, how the internet culture work on Korea? Is that different from West?
What would ever stopped him from being a nameless anonymous without a cam and a non-monetized afreeca profile from the start? It never went through his head that simply showing up as Ma Jae Yoon sAviOr with cam and all wouldn't upset the community?
He is that convinced that he did nothing wrong or simply is that dumb?
KeSPA was a shitty organization, really, they had 14,15,16 years old working over time for years under the excuse of a brilliant future if they practiced enough... for me sAviOr is a hero.
On December 18 2017 04:15 XenOsky- wrote: KeSPA was a shitty organization, really, they had 14,15,16 years old working over time for years under the excuse of a brilliant future if they practiced enough... for me sAviOr is a hero.
fuck kespa, long live the maestro!
Was that not true? Flash was one of these young people you refer to. What your post doesn't say is only a few become great, but everyone has the same chance. That's because it's a highly competitive environment.
On December 17 2017 23:56 Starecat wrote: There is something that doesn't dissapear from my mind, how the internet culture work on Korea? Is that different from West?
What would ever stopped him from being a nameless anonymous without a cam and a non-monetized afreeca profile from the start? It never went through his head that simply showing up as Ma Jae Yoon sAviOr with cam and all wouldn't upset the community?
He is that convinced that he did nothing wrong or simply is that dumb?
He wants to cash in for the 3rd time. He already streamed before but quit because it wasn't as successful as he thought in long run (unlikable personality, heavy chat moderation, low skill level)
But each time he returns, he would get lots of donation as it generates controversy and interest rather than completely fading away if he had continued streaming
He isn t some noble guy trying to stream his gameplay. He's Fucking cashing in once again. He's done this before....
Afreeca should do what is good for afreeca, which, if the korean comments in this thread are any indication, is not let him stream. The guy can be a prick and asshole and whatnot for all I care, but I'm 1) no korean 2) no businessman. I would be curious to watch him play. I would most certainly not support him financially. I've never been a fan of his, despite his successes. Matchfixing made him a nobody to me afterwards.
That being said, some of the comments here are really overboard. Savior commited an ACTUAL crime, he got the punishment as prescribed by law, he got kicked out from the scene that thrust him into stardom, he probably ran off of money recently. In terms of pure punishment, that should be enough in my book, legally and ethically. I don't know how many of you guys, koreans and foreigners, who hate Savior with a passion, are progamers... did he rob you? Did he deprive you of a chance to shine? Did he destroy the BW scene so you couldn't profit from it? If you did, then there is some justification. If you're as much a viewer and fan of the game as I am, meaning not a progamer, then you should calm the fck down. You're making a disgrace of yourselves in a strictly moral sense, because you're just on the hate wagon, comfortably speaking from a non-professional point of view.
I say let the market decide. If Afreeca deem him risky, they won't let him stream, which is the wisest way to look at the problem anyway. If they actually let him stream, the viewers would decide if he's any good at being a streamer. He's probably a joke compared to most current pros - and I'm not even talking about guys like Soulkey or Effort or Larva, I mean Miso, for example - so if he's smart, he'll find a way to earn a living besides being on a competitive level. If he's not, he'll just fade away.
And if he poisons the community through his stream, sewing discord and intrigue, well, Afreeca can decide on this as well - and the progaming scene.
But us? We're nobodies.
EDIT: I missed the post saying he's actually allowed to stream BW on afreeca. Is he really? Then what is really the point of the discussion? That Afreeca should ban him now? I am a bit confused now. He probably is not sincere and is just looking for a way to get people to watch his stream. If anyone is willing to support him, I don't see why they would be kept from doing it. Their heads, their money. It's a free market for streamers anyway.
On December 19 2017 03:13 TaardadAiel wrote: EDIT: I missed the post saying he's actually allowed to stream BW on afreeca. Is he really? Then what is really the point of the discussion? That Afreeca should ban him now? I am a bit confused now. He probably is not sincere and is just looking for a way to get people to watch his stream. If anyone is willing to support him, I don't see why they would be kept from doing it. Their heads, their money. It's a free market for streamers anyway.
They're discussing whether they should allow/ban him from streaming, and sometimes debating whether he should be allowed to stream BW or not (regardless of platform).
In regards to Afreeca, the current rule atm is that he can stream as long as he doesn't stream games that had relation to KeSPA such as BW.
On December 19 2017 03:13 TaardadAiel wrote: EDIT: I missed the post saying he's actually allowed to stream BW on afreeca. Is he really? Then what is really the point of the discussion? That Afreeca should ban him now? I am a bit confused now. He probably is not sincere and is just looking for a way to get people to watch his stream. If anyone is willing to support him, I don't see why they would be kept from doing it. Their heads, their money. It's a free market for streamers anyway.
They're discussing whether they should allow/ban him from streaming, and sometimes debating whether he should be allowed to stream BW or not (regardless of platform).
In regards to Afreeca, the current rule atm is that he can stream as long as he doesn't stream games that had relation to KeSPA such as BW.
Thank you. Well, I hope Afreeca makes their decision based on as little emotion as possbile. Which actually means for monetary reasons. In the current state of the scene, this would reflect the mood of the general population the best. If they deem it unwise for the platform, so be it.
I almost forgot about the coach guy with the bat. I REALLY don't care how much it is appropriate in Korea to beat somebody up in order to get him to pull himself together. This is pretty simple, it's called assault/battery(if he actually hit them). With a goddamn bat. If a sports coach does that to anyone, they should be fired and banned from coaching, along with mandatory psychiatric counsel. And I seriously don't want to see a word on how this is OK in Korea. There are regions in the world where people do all kinds of ugly shit with impunity, most of us here on TL pretend to live in a somewhat civilized society where beating somebody up with a bat is at the very least frowned upon.
On December 19 2017 03:13 TaardadAiel wrote: EDIT: I missed the post saying he's actually allowed to stream BW on afreeca. Is he really? Then what is really the point of the discussion? That Afreeca should ban him now? I am a bit confused now. He probably is not sincere and is just looking for a way to get people to watch his stream. If anyone is willing to support him, I don't see why they would be kept from doing it. Their heads, their money. It's a free market for streamers anyway.
They're discussing whether they should allow/ban him from streaming, and sometimes debating whether he should be allowed to stream BW or not (regardless of platform).
In regards to Afreeca, the current rule atm is that he can stream as long as he doesn't stream games that had relation to KeSPA such as BW.
Thank you. Well, I hope Afreeca makes their decision based on as little emotion as possbile. Which actually means for monetary reasons. In the current state of the scene, this would reflect the mood of the general population the best. If they deem it unwise for the platform, so be it.
I almost forgot about the coach guy with the bat. I REALLY don't care how much it is appropriate in Korea to beat somebody up in order to get him to pull himself together. This is pretty simple, it's called assault/battery(if he actually hit them). With a goddamn bat. If a sports coach does that to anyone, they should be fired and banned from coaching, along with mandatory psychiatric counsel. And I seriously don't want to see a word on how this is OK in Korea. There are regions in the world where people do all kinds of ugly shit with impunity, most of us here on TL pretend to live in a somewhat civilized society where beating somebody up with a bat is at the very least frowned upon.
On December 19 2017 03:13 TaardadAiel wrote: EDIT: I missed the post saying he's actually allowed to stream BW on afreeca. Is he really? Then what is really the point of the discussion? That Afreeca should ban him now? I am a bit confused now. He probably is not sincere and is just looking for a way to get people to watch his stream. If anyone is willing to support him, I don't see why they would be kept from doing it. Their heads, their money. It's a free market for streamers anyway.
They're discussing whether they should allow/ban him from streaming, and sometimes debating whether he should be allowed to stream BW or not (regardless of platform).
In regards to Afreeca, the current rule atm is that he can stream as long as he doesn't stream games that had relation to KeSPA such as BW.
Thank you. Well, I hope Afreeca makes their decision based on as little emotion as possbile. Which actually means for monetary reasons. In the current state of the scene, this would reflect the mood of the general population the best. If they deem it unwise for the platform, so be it.
If they don't base it on emotions, the decision is very simple.
Supporting Savior's stream + BW is going to give Afreeca platform very bad reps + will potentially (more like most likely) drive main sponsors away from future tournaments, including ASL. The money that they potentially lose (angered fans + bad rep + potential loss of sponsorship) severely outweighs the profit they can make from Savior's stream (via processing fee).
In the end, emotions do play part of the decision on Afreeca because its really up to the viewers + sponsors on how they feel about the overall situation. Discussing how they feel and why someone's right/wrong on their views on this matter is completely different subject, and it starts with understanding how the Korean culture works (even before discussing the incident itself).
I REALLY don't care how much it is appropriate in Korea to beat somebody up in order to get him to pull himself together.
While I agree, the problem with approaching the discussion in this format is that you're trying to apply your own beliefs in a place where they may have completely different standards.
And the only reason why I went back to mention this is because many people here are trying to decide without knowing the context of where this is happening, what the culture is (especially when it comes to someone committing a crime), and how it all comes together and affects the scene IN KOREA.
On December 19 2017 03:13 TaardadAiel wrote: EDIT: I missed the post saying he's actually allowed to stream BW on afreeca. Is he really? Then what is really the point of the discussion? That Afreeca should ban him now? I am a bit confused now. He probably is not sincere and is just looking for a way to get people to watch his stream. If anyone is willing to support him, I don't see why they would be kept from doing it. Their heads, their money. It's a free market for streamers anyway.
They're discussing whether they should allow/ban him from streaming, and sometimes debating whether he should be allowed to stream BW or not (regardless of platform).
In regards to Afreeca, the current rule atm is that he can stream as long as he doesn't stream games that had relation to KeSPA such as BW.
Thank you. Well, I hope Afreeca makes their decision based on as little emotion as possbile. Which actually means for monetary reasons. In the current state of the scene, this would reflect the mood of the general population the best. If they deem it unwise for the platform, so be it.
I almost forgot about the coach guy with the bat. I REALLY don't care how much it is appropriate in Korea to beat somebody up in order to get him to pull himself together. This is pretty simple, it's called assault/battery(if he actually hit them). With a goddamn bat. If a sports coach does that to anyone, they should be fired and banned from coaching, along with mandatory psychiatric counsel. And I seriously don't want to see a word on how this is OK in Korea. There are regions in the world where people do all kinds of ugly shit with impunity, most of us here on TL pretend to live in a somewhat civilized society where beating somebody up with a bat is at the very least frowned upon.
Go watch "Fehér tenyér".
Well, we all know of stuff like that, Whiplash (in recent times) and such.
I work with cardiac surgeons. I know of surgeons who smack their assistants across the hands with surgical tools. They've been known to throw said tools at people in the operating room. Let's just assume the stake of not learning properly is a bit higher in surgery than in a video game. There's still no justification for that kind of stuff. Not to mention the results of such ... teaching/motivating techniques are not necessarily better.
I am willing to accept that if the hit person has decided on not pursuing outright legal action against the offender, that should be the end of it, since it's largely personal. It encourages such behaviour, though.
I'll edit to avoid a double post:
That's what I mean from making a decision without figuring their own emotional stance on the subject into the equation. Nobody wants to prevent Savior from installing the game or playing anonymously on ladder. The issue is whether or not he should be allowed to make money out of it. Let the people who deal with money decide on this. They know better than you or I (though I agree that it would be a bad decision on Afreeca's part) if they should pursue any sort of relations with a person so reviled. I even think Afreeca could make profit on DENYING Savior the right to stream BW, if the public supports such a decision so much. I have no clue how big the savior (residual) fanbase in Korea is.
And yeah, Korean culture does play a big part in the discussion, but the decision is going to be made with the Korean way of thinking in mind anyway - our foreign opinion factors little to none. So please, don't advertise some sort of acceptable degree of violence to the foreign audience. It has nothing to do with the foreign stance on how badly Savior screwed up.
On December 19 2017 03:13 TaardadAiel wrote: EDIT: I missed the post saying he's actually allowed to stream BW on afreeca. Is he really? Then what is really the point of the discussion? That Afreeca should ban him now? I am a bit confused now. He probably is not sincere and is just looking for a way to get people to watch his stream. If anyone is willing to support him, I don't see why they would be kept from doing it. Their heads, their money. It's a free market for streamers anyway.
They're discussing whether they should allow/ban him from streaming, and sometimes debating whether he should be allowed to stream BW or not (regardless of platform).
In regards to Afreeca, the current rule atm is that he can stream as long as he doesn't stream games that had relation to KeSPA such as BW.
Thank you. Well, I hope Afreeca makes their decision based on as little emotion as possbile. Which actually means for monetary reasons. In the current state of the scene, this would reflect the mood of the general population the best. If they deem it unwise for the platform, so be it.
I almost forgot about the coach guy with the bat. I REALLY don't care how much it is appropriate in Korea to beat somebody up in order to get him to pull himself together. This is pretty simple, it's called assault/battery(if he actually hit them). With a goddamn bat. If a sports coach does that to anyone, they should be fired and banned from coaching, along with mandatory psychiatric counsel. And I seriously don't want to see a word on how this is OK in Korea. There are regions in the world where people do all kinds of ugly shit with impunity, most of us here on TL pretend to live in a somewhat civilized society where beating somebody up with a bat is at the very least frowned upon.
Go watch "Fehér tenyér".
Well, we all know of stuff like that, Whiplash (in recent times) and such.
I work with cardiac surgeons. I know of surgeons who smack their assistants across the hands with surgical tools. They've been known to throw said tools at people in the operating room. Let's just assume the stake of not learning properly is a bit higher in surgery than in a video game. There's still no justification for that kind of stuff. Not to mention the results of such ... teaching/motivating techniques are not necessarily better.
I am willing to accept that if the hit person has decided on not pursuing outright legal action against the offender, that should be the end of it, since it's largely personal. It encourages such behaviour, though.
I'll edit to avoid a double post:
That's what I mean from making a decision without figuring their own emotional stance on the subject into the equation. Nobody wants to prevent Savior from installing the game or playing anonymously on ladder. The issue is whether or not he should be allowed to make money out of it. Let the people who deal with money decide on this. They know better than you or I (though I agree that it would be a bad decision on Afreeca's part) if they should pursue any sort of relations with a person so reviled. I even think Afreeca could make profit on DENYING Savior the right to stream BW, if the public supports such a decision so much. I have no clue how big the savior (residual) fanbase in Korea is.
And yeah, Korean culture does play a big part in the discussion, but the decision is going to be made with the Korean way of thinking in mind anyway - our foreign opinion factors little to none. So please, don't advertise some sort of acceptable degree of violence to the foreign audience. It has nothing to do with the foreign stance on how badly Savior screwed up.
Just to make it clear: I only brought up the 'violence' part of the quote not because I wanted to advertise it or to promote it or anything (I could go into another talk about this and how terrible it was for me attending elementary school there in late 90s), I merely brought it up because the approach (and the comparison you made using it) is dangerous for the foreigners who are trying to understand why Savior is banned in Korea. I was suggesting that people should go out and understand the Korean culture and how they usually deal with people who are put into spotlight after doing bad things before trying to make suggestions on how Afreeca should handle the issue.
The biggest problem I have atm (and why I'm incredibly frustrated) is that people are trying to apply their own thoughts and ideology and suggesting what Afreeca should do. It's like going into help out a community in other country, but forcing your own beliefs and methods to help others which may go against the local's beliefs (usually due to culture/religious reasons).
But in the end, you're right. It's up to each individual media platform to decide what's right and what's wrong. People have the power to say otherwise through viewerships, but ultimately the decision to allow streaming is up to the platforms.
He could make his life easier if he picked up a different skill and stayed away from StarCraft. There is a world outside SC. I understand he's jealous of the $$ Flash and JD are raking in, and I'm not even saying that's wrong (I don't understand people saying "all he wants is money" like that's a sin, and I don't think it devalues his apology as much as they do), but this is kinda something he has to accept he screwed up. I see comparisons in this thread to assault or other weird stuff, and although there were some victims of his behaviour, I don't think it is remotely comparable to assault, I don't think his star power makes his crime more heinous, and I sincerely don't believe he single handedly ruined StarCraft. Every sport in history has it's cheaters and thieves and controversies, and it's not cause StarCraft is so young that it couldn't take that heat, cause every other sport had crazy bullshit in their growing years, including people literally being killed in baseball before they realised maybe they should wear helmets, and a long long history of brain damaged athletes in any number of highly violent sports. A couple of fixed matches is not something any sport escapes from.
What I want to say though, is that people's feelings were hurt, people were betrayed. People can forgive Savior without wanting to see him in StarCraft again. We decide that as individuals, and obviously some people never felt particularly hurt even vicariously. I would state that I did feel betrayed, but I would probably watch his matches in a tournament. I believe his style would be interesting and I'd like to see if it still looks good.
The crime Savior committed is most comparable to a partner doing something unscrupulous. You never have to be in a relationship with such a person again. It's a social crime. But everyone has done something shitty to someone else at some point in their lives, people they had a position of power over, or just people who trusted them, and although that specific relationship is sometimes irreparably damaged, it doesn't mean new relationships are forever tainted. So I say it would be easier for him to do that outside of StarCraft, but if he can make new relationships with new fans who didn't feel that affected by what he did in the past, then that's probably actually okay. There is not nearly enough evidence to say he is a sociopath or that he will betray people again and again. That some players didn't like him when he was a pro is not really proof of that either.
I guess what I'm saying is after so many years when StarCraft already feels past its best-by date I just don't care. I would not be upset by a decision either way by Afreeca, to allow him to stream StarCraft or to ban him. I would not be upset to see him banned from tournaments, or allowed to participate. He was fun to watch play. He did not uphold the pride of a professional. Clearly I'd admire unmarred players more, but if he could make a broadcast more interesting to watch... It kinda doesn't matter. I don't idolize these players as much as the people who want to donate while they watch them eat. StarCraft is weird enough right now I could see Savior coming back being not that big of a deal for most people.
Koreans take this shit very seriously which is why that even in their daily lives and politics, people step down and walk away unlike the rest of the world where corruption is a normal thing. I completely understand if the guy is never allowed to do it again. Matchfixing not only ruins whatever sport/esport, it teaches children to start life like a bunch of douchebags. It's really a big deal that esports at least try to remain as clean as possible if it ever wants to be legitimized as a real sport.
Voted Yes. It's been what ? +10 years by now. Should he be allowed to compete again probably not. Should be allowed to stream? I feel he has done his "time" and should be allowed to.
On December 20 2017 01:01 Broodwar4lyf wrote: Koreans take this shit very seriously which is why that even in their daily lives and politics, people step down and walk away unlike the rest of the world where corruption is a normal thing. I completely understand if the guy is never allowed to do it again. Matchfixing not only ruins whatever sport/esport, it teaches children to start life like a bunch of douchebags. It's really a big deal that esports at least try to remain as clean as possible if it ever wants to be legitimized as a real sport.
Just because some people step down doesn't mean corruption isn't a major problem in Korea. South Korea is tied with Rwanda and Namibia when it comes to this issue. If you want to see countries that take corruption seriously, look up Iceland and Denmark. Read what Iceland does with their bankers.
What is your point? We all know South Koreans are very strict and disciplined compared to a lot of other nations and you try to make what I said completely wrong with some random stat sheet index. I'm trying to make a point and everybody cannot deny that they as a people South Koreans do value honor and integrity even in esports where matchfixing is rampant all over different games - I can name you a couple of cheating and matchfixing Iceland and Denmark CSGO teams if you want, just to make your point sound just as stupid as mine if you want to play that game.
If you love Savior that bad then fine, have at it. The fuck I care, I only want things the way they are in SC where cheating has dramatically lessened because of that Savior punishment.
people step down and walk away unlike the rest of the world where corruption is a normal thing.
In this statement you seem to imply that corruption is not a normal thing in Korea. While you are correct that losing face has more severe repercussions in Southkorea (and most asian countries) than in most western countries, to conclude Korea as a country wasn't corrupt is not fair to countries that actually fight corruption. Corruption isn't what South Korea is afraid of, getting caught is. I do not think Lazare1969 tried to make your point invalid. In my eyes he merely pointed out that you arrive at the wrong conclusion about Southkorea being a society motivated by purity, from your absolutely correct observation that corruption has harsher consequences there.
If savior streamed I would watch, I really enjoyed his playstyle and enjoyed watching all his games back in the day.
Get off your high horse, we've all done things we're not proud of. I bet alot of the people in this thread judging savior have done shit they could be judged and banned for, just because he's a public figure you wanna shit all over him with your moral grandstanding. It doesn't make you look moral, it makes you look petty.
On December 25 2017 20:47 KoveN- wrote: If savior streamed I would watch, I really enjoyed his playstyle and enjoyed watching all his games back in the day.
Get off your high horse, we've all done things we're not proud of. I bet alot of the people in this thread judging savior have done shit they could be judged and banned for, just because he's a public figure you wanna shit all over him with your moral grandstanding. It doesn't make you look moral, it makes you look petty.
The actions of matchfixers continue to plague and haunt korean esports to this day, I'm sure you understand that many dreams of potential pros and b-teamers were crushed along with livelihoods of many players lost due to the scandal. MJY recruited other players into it, some of whom did not even know what they were getting into and only realized it too late and has repeatedly shown little to no remorse over his actions.
I don't think its petty to say that MJY should not be allowed to profit from BW.
On December 25 2017 20:47 KoveN- wrote: If savior streamed I would watch, I really enjoyed his playstyle and enjoyed watching all his games back in the day.
Get off your high horse, we've all done things we're not proud of. I bet alot of the people in this thread judging savior have done shit they could be judged and banned for, just because he's a public figure you wanna shit all over him with your moral grandstanding. It doesn't make you look moral, it makes you look petty.
Petty that he destroyed the scene and hopes of thousands around him, killed dreams of many aspiring kids as well as jobs of many coaches, b teamers, ect.
Petty that he was staunchly unapologetic and denying of his crimes on stream while maintaining his arrogant attitude during his afreeca streaming days
Petty to not accept his clearly insincere apology when general perception of him forced him to do 180 in his attitude.
Other progamer have nothing but bad things to say about his attitude during his progaming days and you could see that during his afreeca streaming days. Now you want to forgive him so he can do his yearly cash grab.
On December 25 2017 20:47 KoveN- wrote: If savior streamed I would watch, I really enjoyed his playstyle and enjoyed watching all his games back in the day.
Get off your high horse, we've all done things we're not proud of. I bet alot of the people in this thread judging savior have done shit they could be judged and banned for, just because he's a public figure you wanna shit all over him with your moral grandstanding. It doesn't make you look moral, it makes you look petty.
Petty that he destroyed the scene and hopes of thousands around him, killed dreams of many aspiring kids as well as jobs of many coaches, b teamers, ect.
Petty that he was staunchly unapologetic and denying of his crimes on stream while maintaining his arrogant attitude during his afreeca streaming days
Petty to not accept his clearly insincere apology when general perception of him forced him to do 180 in his attitude.
Other progamer have nothing but bad things to say about his attitude during his progaming days and you could see that during his afreeca streaming days. Now you want to forgive him so he can do his yearly cash grab.
Well I don't care about any of this. There are fighters in the UFC who get caught taking drugs, cheating and even they get to go back in after a few years.
If you don't like savior you don't have to support him.
On December 25 2017 20:47 KoveN- wrote: If savior streamed I would watch, I really enjoyed his playstyle and enjoyed watching all his games back in the day.
Get off your high horse, we've all done things we're not proud of. I bet alot of the people in this thread judging savior have done shit they could be judged and banned for, just because he's a public figure you wanna shit all over him with your moral grandstanding. It doesn't make you look moral, it makes you look petty.
Petty that he destroyed the scene and hopes of thousands around him, killed dreams of many aspiring kids as well as jobs of many coaches, b teamers, ect.
Petty that he was staunchly unapologetic and denying of his crimes on stream while maintaining his arrogant attitude during his afreeca streaming days
Petty to not accept his clearly insincere apology when general perception of him forced him to do 180 in his attitude.
Other progamer have nothing but bad things to say about his attitude during his progaming days and you could see that during his afreeca streaming days. Now you want to forgive him so he can do his yearly cash grab.
Well I don't care about any of this. There are fighters in the UFC who get caught taking drugs, cheating and even they get to go back in after a few years.
If you don't like savior you don't have to support him.
Maybe this is the problem? UFC fighters get small sentences and some fine and they are back in the game earning more money. If they would be banned for life other fighters in the future would think twice before taking drugs.
I think for broodwar to be anything like what it used to be, there can't be guys like savior getting publicity. His play is probably years behind when he was just IPX Zerg. So why divert views from what could be rising stars for the sake of this dried out husk of a nerd?
In my 12 years of watching competitive broodwar and being a neurotic shitposter, ive seen it all. At one point 2/3 of TL.net was ready to go lynch Flash for being a cheezy scrub that knocked Bisu out of some OSL Quarterfinals. But hey, we had to make room for rising talent... kind of like that time Savior made room for Bisu, or that time Boxer made room for Oov. And guess what, we were entertained.
So yeah, lets put the whole Savior debacle into the ash heap of history, and make room for some new blood. We all know Starcraft needs it, especially for protoss.
I do not think that he should be allowed to make money off a game that in which he willfully, and purposefully shat on. This isn't a 2nd chance, it's 5th?
He still shows no sincerity. His only regret seems to be that he can't make money off of it now that that other sources aren't so lucrative as an uber driver.
Forgiveness is for people that actually show that they have regret of their actions. He shows none. Keep him the hell out.
let savior stream on afreeca but disable his account from getting money from streaming. Job done, if hes really so passionate and willing to be forgiven he should have no problem with "charity streaming" also that way he can regain his pride and clean his name a bit. I doubt that will happen tho, a snake is a snake.
I still hold Savior accountable for the downfall of Brood War scene in main stream media. The match-fixing scandal hurt the BW scene HUGELY and led the way for SC2 to push it out.
Should he get a reprieve? He should be given a second chance and I would give him a 1 strike and your banned for good type of deal.
this guy (single-handedly is too strong a word and implication so i'm not using that) played such a huge role in destroying what took decades to build. i can forgive him but will never forget what he did.
To be honest seeing this makes me feel a little bit weird. Jaeyun is this kind of personality where you cannot really figure out if he is really true or still playing false.
I remember two or three years ago I was trying to make people forgive him, especially korean players. Because of that I got the chance to talk to him personally. And the weirdest thing comes now...... He tried to cell smartphones to me... That was so weird...... I think no one can even imagine. That made me think, that he probably is still just after the money. After this experience I stopped talking to him or to other players about forgiveness......
Besides this weird sh*t, he was an awesome completly unique player. I dont know if this is good or bad. But after this cellphone stuffs, I do not plan to watch him or contact him again D:
...you cannot really figure out if he is really true or still playing false.
Note: I'm only quoting 'cause it's a common sentiment. not replying to anyone specific, thus I left out the handle
I don't think it matters. I believe in freedom, and punishment for the purpose of reform. To me, that's what a civilized society is, and more to the point, the one I wish to live in. So that is what I promote.
I've seen passionate arguments about what a horrible person he is/was, some from people I respect greatly and even believe without evidence. (since I have none myself, I don't know the man) So I understand animus fine. But I object to the idea that he will do xxx, thus shouldn't be allowed to stream/play/whatever. I simply do not believe a free society punishes people for stuff they might do. That there is evidence he did so in the past is not relevant, it just makes it more likely in theory.
I don't know why it's so hard to accept that people can make their own decisions about others. Banning someone from anything makes it impossible to collect the data required to make those decisions. In essence, such a ban pushes one perspective onto other people who should be free to decide themselves.
Plus, it sounds like many think (and I tend to agree with) that his stream will be a flop. Ok, great. So what's the issue with that? Let it flop. Let it succeed. Sponsors can make up their own minds too-- they don't need to adhere to some community-given moral ban.
If he doesn't play Brood War, I don't really care. It is a massive insult to all fans and people who lost their jobs for him to play the game he had a big hand in destroying.
And based on his actions in the past I highly doubt he actually repented for his crimes. I wouldn't mind people like Fake Yellow coming back, as he admitted to his guilt and has lived an honest life for many years afterwards. Savior on the other hand acted as if he did nothing wrong ("I was only a broker"), banned anyone who said anything remotely close to the word '주작' (Korean meme for Savior's manipulation), and made money by selling BW guides while people in the business found themselves jobless. Does this look like a man who can even feel regret?
On December 31 2017 12:21 RWLabs wrote: If he doesn't play Brood War, I don't really care. It is a massive insult to all fans and people who lost their jobs for him to play the game he had a big hand in destroying.
And based on his actions in the past I highly doubt he actually repented for his crimes. I wouldn't mind people like Fake Yellow coming back, as he admitted to his guilt and has lived an honest life for many years afterwards. Savior on the other hand acted as if he did nothing wrong ("I was only a broker"), banned anyone who said anything remotely close to the word '주작' (Korean meme for Savior's manipulation), and made money by selling BW guides while people in the business found themselves jobless. Does this look like a man who can even feel regret?
On December 31 2017 12:21 RWLabs wrote: If he doesn't play Brood War, I don't really care. It is a massive insult to all fans and people who lost their jobs for him to play the game he had a big hand in destroying.
And based on his actions in the past I highly doubt he actually repented for his crimes. I wouldn't mind people like Fake Yellow coming back, as he admitted to his guilt and has lived an honest life for many years afterwards. Savior on the other hand acted as if he did nothing wrong ("I was only a broker"), banned anyone who said anything remotely close to the word '주작' (Korean meme for Savior's manipulation), and made money by selling BW guides while people in the business found themselves jobless. Does this look like a man who can even feel regret?
Wait, how did he lose people their jobs?
People are misrepresenting Blizzard sweeping the rug from under KeSPA with SC2 with the match fixing scandal lowering the legitimacy of competitive BW being the opening that allowed Blizzard to enter the Korean scene with SC2. The former was going to happen regardless since Blizzard always had the option to force an enormous fee to run tournaments for the game they didn't want to push (like they are doing now) but Koreans sure do love putting bologna slices over their eyes when it comes to mindless hatred.
I'll forgive him. But I still don't want him playing SC or making money off of the fans he betrayed. There are other things he can do to make money. He'd only hurt BW if he stayed.
^I don't think that is how forgiveness works. On one hand you forgive him but on the other you still want to punish him. I am sick of this attitude. Maybe I want to watch his stream and donate to him? Who are you really to tell me that I shouldn't? I respect Afreecas decision to ban him - they must have their reasons so I don't try to argue with that. But I am fcking sick of random people, who try to tell others what they should be able to watch.
Ok as an update the man stream regularly 4 h:30 min , and he has not a lot of viewers round 700-1000. He is becomming better day by day and his elo is ca 3000 mmr now.
Alright, so if you don't trust him or you don't forget his actions, then you won't watch and support him. But why people who want to watch him, should not be allowed to? You don't hate him, have no anger, you let go your emotional bit, you forgave him!! So clearly you shouldn't be against him streaming for people that want to follow him, right?
I just said that I didn't want him playing SC because I feel his fans have gotten exploited enough. I never said that people sould be forbidden from watching him.
Him being banned from tournaments though is good. From a practical standpoint he'd only hurt the reputation of any tournament that he is in.
You didn't say that people should be forbidden from watching him - but you said that you don't want him to play SC. I don't know what do you mean by it (streaming SC or playing tournaments), but since the topic is about stream, then I assume that u don't want him to play SC on stream. And this way, indirectly, people who want to watch him, are forbidden from watching him. No stream = can't watch. I hope I am clear enough now.
I will quickly respond to "but he can stream something other than SC" argument, which will for sure pop up again soon. Sure, he can, but majority of people who follow him want to see him play some games, so there is simply no point of streaming anything else.
The "fans getting exploited" argument is very silly. People should decide how they want to spend their time and money by themselves. I dare to say that him streaming SC wouldn't affect you in any way at all.
On December 31 2017 12:21 RWLabs wrote: If he doesn't play Brood War, I don't really care. It is a massive insult to all fans and people who lost their jobs for him to play the game he had a big hand in destroying.
And based on his actions in the past I highly doubt he actually repented for his crimes. I wouldn't mind people like Fake Yellow coming back, as he admitted to his guilt and has lived an honest life for many years afterwards. Savior on the other hand acted as if he did nothing wrong ("I was only a broker"), banned anyone who said anything remotely close to the word '주작' (Korean meme for Savior's manipulation), and made money by selling BW guides while people in the business found themselves jobless. Does this look like a man who can even feel regret?
Wait, how did he lose people their jobs?
People are misrepresenting Blizzard sweeping the rug from under KeSPA with SC2 with the match fixing scandal lowering the legitimacy of competitive BW being the opening that allowed Blizzard to enter the Korean scene with SC2. The former was going to happen regardless since Blizzard always had the option to force an enormous fee to run tournaments for the game they didn't want to push (like they are doing now) but Koreans sure do love putting bologna slices over their eyes when it comes to mindless hatred.
BW scene was on decline, as well as e-sports as a whole. But instead of giving these companies a time to transition to transfer over to something else, the match fixing incident put a nail on the coffin and created the downfall of esports infrastructure (4 disbanded teams, 1 studio removed). As well as sponsors pulling out of OSL which forced people to move quicker while some were already losing jobs because corporations decided to pull out of the scene.
So to say 'Koreans being blindeyed by hate' is really an understatement when their friends who worked in the industry exactly knows how huge the impact was at the time, and how it would impact the scene if such things were allowed to happen again and/or associate with those who helped with matchfixing.
On January 01 2018 00:48 Netto. wrote: The "fans getting exploited" argument is very silly. People should decide how they want to spend their time and money by themselves. I dare to say that him streaming SC wouldn't affect you in any way at all.
It means downfall of anything BW related on the said platform (which is why Afreeca disallowed such things). If that's how fans want to use their money for, then so be it.
On December 31 2017 12:21 RWLabs wrote: If he doesn't play Brood War, I don't really care. It is a massive insult to all fans and people who lost their jobs for him to play the game he had a big hand in destroying.
And based on his actions in the past I highly doubt he actually repented for his crimes. I wouldn't mind people like Fake Yellow coming back, as he admitted to his guilt and has lived an honest life for many years afterwards. Savior on the other hand acted as if he did nothing wrong ("I was only a broker"), banned anyone who said anything remotely close to the word '주작' (Korean meme for Savior's manipulation), and made money by selling BW guides while people in the business found themselves jobless. Does this look like a man who can even feel regret?
Wait, how did he lose people their jobs?
People are misrepresenting Blizzard sweeping the rug from under KeSPA with SC2 with the match fixing scandal lowering the legitimacy of competitive BW being the opening that allowed Blizzard to enter the Korean scene with SC2. The former was going to happen regardless since Blizzard always had the option to force an enormous fee to run tournaments for the game they didn't want to push (like they are doing now) but Koreans sure do love putting bologna slices over their eyes when it comes to mindless hatred.
3 sponsors lost on the spot 4 teams disbanded almost instantly (8 if you count up to 2013) Lit the fuse for loss of MSL (MBC wanted a reason to replace MBC Game. 2010 got them one.) Literally begged KAL for sponsorship and planned OSL entirely around them mmm bologna... right? Doesn't hurt to do a bit more research before you publicly shame yourself.
savior must be really amazing guy, if you believe the salt in this thread he almost singlehandedly brought down several organisations and caused widespread destruction, the likes the e-sport world has ever seen. Maybe you should send him to north korea and watch the whole thing crumble from the inside? can anyone stop this man? first the BW scene, next the world ?
On December 31 2017 21:57 Netto. wrote: ^I don't think that is how forgiveness works. On one hand you forgive him but on the other you still want to punish him. I am sick of this attitude. Maybe I want to watch his stream and donate to him? Who are you really to tell me that I shouldn't? I respect Afreecas decision to ban him - they must have their reasons so I don't try to argue with that. But I am fcking sick of random people, who try to tell others what they should be able to watch.
Then just contact him and give him money, I dont care if He streams, but you with your attitude are disgusting, btw you are a fucking random too.
On December 31 2017 21:57 Netto. wrote: ^I don't think that is how forgiveness works. On one hand you forgive him but on the other you still want to punish him. I am sick of this attitude. Maybe I want to watch his stream and donate to him? Who are you really to tell me that I shouldn't? I respect Afreecas decision to ban him - they must have their reasons so I don't try to argue with that. But I am fcking sick of random people, who try to tell others what they should be able to watch.
Then just contact him and give him money, I dont care if He streams, but you with your attitude are disgusting, btw you are a fucking random too.
Why exactly is it disgusting? At least i wrote my reasoning.
On December 15 2017 01:08 CHEONSOYUN wrote: savior is a little bitch.
of all the matchfixers he had the most money and the most support from his team, his fans and sponsor. he threw all of that in the trash while dragging others into the hole as the ringleader.
his coach tearfully and continually denied all allegations when the story broke out, and eventually lost his job over the saga.
other players came out and publically apologized and showed remorse
yet throughout all of these regrets and apologies, savior didn't apologize or admit wrongdoing; when he finally did it was a halfassed one that didn't communicate any responsibility over what he did.
he's a little piece of shit who spent all the balloons he siphoned from his fans through afreecatv on luxury products; dude didn't even go to his military service by claiming some bullshit eye injury or whatever
everyone who's like "let bygones be bygones" seriously need to stfu not because it's a bad sentiment, but because it's wasted on this piece of trash.
he apologizes now that he's flat broke and the money's drying up? yeah okay. bitch
Why do you have such a strong opinion of someone you don't know? You sound really bitter. You have no idea what the situation was behind the scenes, all you know is what broke out to the media. There's always more to shit like this. If those people were willing to take the fall for him, do you not think they already knew the consequences of their actions? I guess the internet gives everyone a voice though.
On January 01 2018 00:48 Netto. wrote: You didn't say that people should be forbidden from watching him - but you said that you don't want him to play SC. I don't know what do you mean by it (streaming SC or playing tournaments), but since the topic is about stream, then I assume that u don't want him to play SC on stream. And this way, indirectly, people who want to watch him, are forbidden from watching him. No stream = can't watch. I hope I am clear enough now.
I will quickly respond to "but he can stream something other than SC" argument, which will for sure pop up again soon. Sure, he can, but majority of people who follow him want to see him play some games, so there is simply no point of streaming anything else.
The "fans getting exploited" argument is very silly. People should decide how they want to spend their time and money by themselves. I dare to say that him streaming SC wouldn't affect you in any way at all.
It won't affect me, but It just feels weird to me to see people financially supporting a guy who betrayed them in that way. If they wanna do it, fine, whatever, not my money. If he does it as a hobby, without making any money, to the side of a regular job, I wouldn't mind at all.
But I really do think that he'd hurt whatever platform he is on so I'm not against Afreeca banning him. Maybe twitch is a better place for him to stream. I dunno.
My biggest concern is that I don't want him hurting what little we have left of the Brood War scene. Directly or indirectly.
People are way too resentful, the man makes one mistake trying to feed himself because his team had their hand in his wallet his entire career and a surprisingly significant portion of the bw community doesn't even want him to stream.
90% of those idiots would probably do the same thing and probably do it much quicker.
if he is very good i say yeah because there is not much new skilled blood in the scene. if he is not very good then no because he's a cheater. basically the mayflower treatment
On January 02 2018 12:15 paxconsciente wrote: People are way too resentful, the man makes one mistake trying to feed himself because his team had their hand in his wallet his entire career and a surprisingly significant portion of the bw community doesn't even want him to stream. 90% of those idiots would probably do the same thing and probably do it much quicker.
It is common that people with questionable ethics project their own moral deficiencies on others. People who struggle to be ethical aren't able to see that many people really may live significantly more ethical lives. This seems to be where you are struggling. Here's a tip: Good people exist and there are a lot of them. You don't seem to be one, and that's okay, but don't pretend it is normal or acceptable.
heh, no shame or class here it seems lol. Advertising and promoting a matchfixing toxic POS's monetized youtube stream is low brow at best. get some class.
On February 02 2018 02:14 ReachTheSky wrote: heh, no shame or class here it seems lol. Advertising and promoting a matchfixing toxic POS's monetized youtube stream is low brow at best. get some class.
Not everyone holds the same grudges.
The matchfixing wasn't the only thing that killed BW in 2011.
On February 02 2018 02:14 ReachTheSky wrote: heh, no shame or class here it seems lol. Advertising and promoting a matchfixing toxic POS's monetized youtube stream is low brow at best. get some class.
Not everyone holds the same grudges.
The matchfixing wasn't the only thing that killed BW in 2011.
It's all good buddy, just gonna get his account mass flagged so that all his videos are demonetized and so that youtube suspends his streaming privileges.
On February 02 2018 02:14 ReachTheSky wrote: heh, no shame or class here it seems lol. Advertising and promoting a matchfixing toxic POS's monetized youtube stream is low brow at best. get some class.
Not everyone holds the same grudges.
The matchfixing wasn't the only thing that killed BW in 2011.
It's all good buddy, just gonna get his account mass flagged so that all his videos are demonetized and so that youtube suspends his streaming privileges.
how much do u think savior is making with 15 10 viewers ? also youtube is changing partner requirements u will need 1000 subs and certain number of minutes watched.
On January 02 2018 12:15 paxconsciente wrote: People are way too resentful, the man makes one mistake trying to feed himself because his team had their hand in his wallet his entire career and a surprisingly significant portion of the bw community doesn't even want him to stream. 90% of those idiots would probably do the same thing and probably do it much quicker.
It is common that people with questionable ethics project their own moral deficiencies on others. People who struggle to be ethical aren't able to see that many people really may live significantly more ethical lives. This seems to be where you are struggling. Here's a tip: Good people exist and there are a lot of them. You don't seem to be one, and that's okay, but don't pretend it is normal or acceptable.
That was the nicest stfu I ever read in my life.
I wouldn't throw matches in a game of anything ever or cheat on a test. Its called integrity, but not only did he potentially throw games he roped other young gamers into doing the same thing. They abused the system of progamers being broke to persuade them to throw matches and that is even more twisted. Don't act like Ma Bonjwa is a good person, or that his apology means anything if he brought others down with him. He can play broodwar sure, stream, whatever, but he shouldn't be able to make money again off this game. Him selling replays to people who actually want them, I could live with that but he shouldn't make money off a stream.
On January 02 2018 12:15 paxconsciente wrote: People are way too resentful, the man makes one mistake trying to feed himself because his team had their hand in his wallet his entire career and a surprisingly significant portion of the bw community doesn't even want him to stream. 90% of those idiots would probably do the same thing and probably do it much quicker.
It is common that people with questionable ethics project their own moral deficiencies on others. People who struggle to be ethical aren't able to see that many people really may live significantly more ethical lives. This seems to be where you are struggling. Here's a tip: Good people exist and there are a lot of them. You don't seem to be one, and that's okay, but don't pretend it is normal or acceptable.
That was the nicest stfu I ever read in my life.
I wouldn't throw matches in a game of anything ever or cheat on a test. Its called integrity,
its always easy to say all that whilst sitting in your comfy armchair. If you come from a poor/modest upbringing and suddenly someone offers you crazy wads of cash (that can feed you and your family for years) to betray your principles, how many people would be able to retain their sanity to reject it then and there? 90% may be a gross exaggeration but i still bet a significant amount would fall for the temptation.
In this capitialistic world everyone has a price. even rich people go through all sorts of illegal hoops to maintain and increase their wealth through tax evasion, laundering and the like. the only difference savior and his ilk was unfortunate/stupid enough to not take enough measures to avoid getting caught.
On January 02 2018 12:15 paxconsciente wrote: People are way too resentful, the man makes one mistake trying to feed himself because his team had their hand in his wallet his entire career and a surprisingly significant portion of the bw community doesn't even want him to stream. 90% of those idiots would probably do the same thing and probably do it much quicker.
It is common that people with questionable ethics project their own moral deficiencies on others. People who struggle to be ethical aren't able to see that many people really may live significantly more ethical lives. This seems to be where you are struggling. Here's a tip: Good people exist and there are a lot of them. You don't seem to be one, and that's okay, but don't pretend it is normal or acceptable.
That was the nicest stfu I ever read in my life.
I wouldn't throw matches in a game of anything ever or cheat on a test. Its called integrity,
its always easy to say all that whilst sitting in your comfy armchair. If you come from a poor/modest upbringing and suddenly someone offers you crazy wads of cash (that can feed you and your family for years) to betray your principles, how many people would be able to retain their sanity to reject it then and there? 90% may be a gross exaggeration but i still bet a significant amount would fall for the temptation.
In this capitialistic world everyone has a price. even rich people go through all sorts of illegal hoops to maintain and increase their wealth through tax evasion, laundering and the like. the only difference savior and his ilk was unfortunate/stupid enough to not take enough measures to avoid getting caught.
There's a difference between being tempted into throwing games, and being in the thick of it and using your personal influence to coerce younger and more naive individuals to throw matches for your personal benefit. sAviOr tried his best by using all the sleazy tricks in his bag to corrupt as many players as possible, and that is an irrefutable fact that sets sAviOr apart from dumb kids like DArKeLf who got played by sAviOr into fixing professional games.
sAviOr's personal account of what exactly happened changed so many times throughout the years, with plethora of contrasting accounts from various sources that I can't take a single word that comes out of his mouth seriously. He is a pathological liar, and switches things up depending on how he is currently being received by the public.
Plenty of professional players such as Soulkey, Shine, EffOrt, and sKyHigh refused such offers despite not having huge salaries, and that was despite the fact that shitheads like Justin and sAviOr used their manipulative powers (making others feel guilty for not "helping" them out, luring them into match-fixing by promising financial rewards he would later not keep, and constantly being in their face and pressuring them to follow suit, until they either caved in or things got super-awkward) with no concerns or remorse for the people who would have their careers wrecked further down the line.
sAviOr was a sociopath who lied and manipulated his fellow teammates and peers into a path of self-destruction, and constantly made up fabrications that were totally not in sync with the confessions of other players involved in the match-fixing scandal, just to save his face and avoid further trouble. sAviOr was more in control of his own destiny than almost any other match-fixer out there, and now he is an unskilled player who can't get a following worth a damn because the only thing he is good at nowadays is compounding even more lies and fabrications about his past, and relishing in the controversy he created, which is the legacy of his life-time.
Try getting even one former member of CJ Entus to say something nice about sAviOr. They were with him for all those years. Try telling them what sAviOr did to them was a simple mistake that any one could have made.
Don't bullshit me with the narrative that sAviOr was some kid who was coerced into doing illicit activities, when the fact of the matter is that sAviOr personally ruined the careers of many players, and did his damned best to ruin the careers of those who managed to resist his manipulative actions, then proceeded to deny those charges or constantly make excuses (that would not even stay consistent) for his actions.
Perhaps you are willing to move on, and believe in the sincerity of a man who has shown zero willingness to fully owning up to his past deeds. Have a blast enjoying those shit-tier quality games with those ten or so other people, while preaching about how sAviOr was mistreated by the Brood War community. Don't hold your breath for others to follow suit though, because watching a washed up, unskilled nobody whose last claim to fame was selling out everybody he knew for some money on the side is not everyone's cup of tea.
On February 02 2018 10:12 ggsimida wrote: its always easy to say all that whilst sitting in your comfy armchair. If you come from a poor/modest upbringing and suddenly someone offers you crazy wads of cash (that can feed you and your family for years) to betray your principles, how many people would be able to retain their sanity to reject it then and there? 90% may be a gross exaggeration but i still bet a significant amount would fall for the temptation.
In this capitialistic world everyone has a price. even rich people go through all sorts of illegal hoops to maintain and increase their wealth through tax evasion, laundering and the like. the only difference savior and his ilk was unfortunate/stupid enough to not take enough measures to avoid getting caught.
Savior, the criminal, is hardly at fault but society itself is? Let's investigate your claims.
According to his own words he was making over 50000000 won (~45000 USD) at the time and over his entire match-fixing he claims to have made 200000 won (~2000 USD). The numbers are probably bullshit since Savior is pleading for sympathy, but if you have more reliable numbers that can 'feed his family for years' with more than Buddy Burgers from A&W's, you're free to try. Not to mention, Savior had no problem 'feeding his family for years' without resorting to crime.
And let's not act like he was a person who was humble and frugal. Savior was sporting luxury watches worth over 6500 USD. Think he was feeding his family with that? Maybe to better keep track of how long he put the turkey in the oven? Savior also made a killing from championships before Bisu came to play, and then he could've easily transitioned into the increasingly popular Afreeca to make money (which he later tried to do). So it wasn't some noble cause that made Savior break the law, he was a greedy twat who was frustrated that he was a weak player post-Bisu.
What about all the other progamers that didn't get involved in match-fixing? They were in FAR worse financial situations since most of them never even won a championship, let alone several. Savior out of his explicit greed destroyed their financial futures as well as almost everyone else in the programing industry. Savior isn't a victim of capitalism as you make him out to be.
if you are a progamer and a gambler comes along saying that if he will guarantee you USD 50000 to act as their middle man and manipulate and coerce younger gamers with a good chance of not getting caught, would you? how about 100000USD. half a m,illion?
sleazebag or saint, rich or poor ANYONE would immediately be tempted by such an offer don't try to stand on the moral high ground and give me the social justice savior condemnation nonsense rhetoric one has already heard a million trillion times over. the only difference savior was scumbag enough to accept their offer. and just because other gamers have a supposedly clean image doesn't mean they are automatically innocent. maybe they did accept and do similar matchfixing/rigging stuff, but they were smart enough to never get caught?? how would ever know? haha. from what i have seen and heard over the years illegal gambling is still a thing in SK with tons of money on the line and at stake. when the 2010 savior matchfixing incident happened i knew it would not be the last of it and lore and behold, we have the sc2 matchfixing scandal with a new savior in Life.
The real villain of the scene is not savior. its the illegal gambling scene in SK. wake up sheeple. channel your negative emotions there, its the shit that tempting and ruining players lives.
(btw i feel so touched that 2 (different?) people responded to me within ~10 minutes on a beautiful morning with such passionate posts)
On February 02 2018 12:14 ggsimida wrote: The real villain of the scene is not savior. its the illegal gambling scene in SK. wake up sheeple. channel your negative emotions there, its the shit that tempting and ruining players lives.
Savior didn't just throw matches for money. He became a part of that scene! Your arguments fall flat on your face, and make it clear that you're backfilling your justifications.
And again, the fact that you think nearly anyone would sell out all their work colleagues for money just shows a lot about your own personality and moral character.
On January 01 2018 13:25 Steelo_Rivers wrote: Why do you have such a strong opinion of someone you don't know? You sound really bitter. You have no idea what the situation was behind the scenes, all you know is what broke out to the media. There's always more to shit like this. If those people were willing to take the fall for him, do you not think they already knew the consequences of their actions? I guess the internet gives everyone a voice though.
You can tell how ridiculous your argument here is by applying it to any other criminal case that comes out in the news.
"Why do you have such a strong opinion about the Columbine shooter? You sound really bitter. You have no idea what the situation was behind the scenes, all you know is what broke out to the media."
Well no, we know that people died in the Columbine shootings. Just like we know that the players Savior pressured were forced out of progaming (note this is not absolving them of blame), and perhaps more importantly, real damage was done to the Brood War scene by his actions.
And Savior has had ample opportunity to give his side of the story. And he did. It's just different every time he tells it, lol
On February 02 2018 12:14 ggsimida wrote: if you are a progamer and a gambler comes along saying that if he will guarantee you USD 50000 to act as their middle man and manipulate and coerce younger gamers with a good chance of not getting caught, would you? how about 100000USD. half a m,illion?
sleazebag or saint, rich or poor ANYONE would immediately be tempted by such an offer don't try to stand on the moral high ground and give me the social justice savior condemnation nonsense rhetoric one has already heard a million trillion times over. the only difference savior was scumbag enough to accept their offer. and just because other gamers have a supposedly clean image doesn't mean they are automatically innocent. maybe they did accept and do similar matchfixing/rigging stuff, but they were smart enough to never get caught?? how would ever know? haha. from what i have seen and heard over the years illegal gambling is still a thing in SK with tons of money on the line and at stake. when the 2010 savior matchfixing incident happened i knew it would not be the last of it and lore and behold, we have the sc2 matchfixing scandal with a new savior in Life.
The real villain of the scene is not savior. its the illegal gambling scene in SK. wake up sheeple. channel your negative emotions there, its the shit that tempting and ruining players lives.
(btw i feel so touched that 2 (different?) people responded to me within ~10 minutes on a beautiful morning with such passionate posts)
Basically this, any amateur BW player, especially probably Foreigners, would throw games for the amount of money sAviOr did, stop acting like you are all perfect and don't suffer from greed lol.
On February 02 2018 12:42 GGzerG wrote:any amateur BW player, especially probably Foreigners, would throw games for the amount of money sAviOr did, stop acting like you are all perfect and don't suffer from greed lol.
"over his entire match-fixing he claims to have made 200000 won (~2000 USD)"
On February 02 2018 12:14 ggsimida wrote: if you are a progamer and a gambler comes along saying that if he will guarantee you USD 50000 to act as their middle man and manipulate and coerce younger gamers with a good chance of not getting caught, would you? how about 100000USD. half a m,illion?
sleazebag or saint, rich or poor ANYONE would immediately be tempted by such an offer don't try to stand on the moral high ground and give me the social justice savior condemnation nonsense rhetoric one has already heard a million trillion times over. the only difference savior was scumbag enough to accept their offer. and just because other gamers have a supposedly clean image doesn't mean they are automatically innocent. maybe they did accept and do similar matchfixing/rigging stuff, but they were smart enough to never get caught?? how would ever know? haha. from what i have seen and heard over the years illegal gambling is still a thing in SK with tons of money on the line and at stake. when the 2010 savior matchfixing incident happened i knew it would not be the last of it and lore and behold, we have the sc2 matchfixing scandal with a new savior in Life.
The real villain of the scene is not savior. its the illegal gambling scene in SK. wake up sheeple. channel your negative emotions there, its the shit that tempting and ruining players lives.
(btw i feel so touched that 2 (different?) people responded to me within ~10 minutes on a beautiful morning with such passionate posts)
real villian is the scene and savior. Savior was in position of authority with him being regarded as the senior and a top progamer. He was the one who propogated this.
Just because other people would fall for that kind of temptation doesnt validate it. You have to remember savior just didn't damage the scene, but made hundreds of other people lose their jobs and future.
and to other korean dude who is trying to vaidate it using terror's video, what savior is saying on stream and amount of money he took according to court document doesnt match up at all. And to trust a guy who already downplayed his crime and denied it on stream.... lol
On February 02 2018 12:14 ggsimida wrote: if you are a progamer and a gambler comes along saying that if he will guarantee you USD 50000 to act as their middle man and manipulate and coerce younger gamers with a good chance of not getting caught, would you? how about 100000USD. half a m,illion?
sleazebag or saint, rich or poor ANYONE would immediately be tempted by such an offer don't try to stand on the moral high ground and give me the social justice savior condemnation nonsense rhetoric one has already heard a million trillion times over. the only difference savior was scumbag enough to accept their offer. and just because other gamers have a supposedly clean image doesn't mean they are automatically innocent. maybe they did accept and do similar matchfixing/rigging stuff, but they were smart enough to never get caught?? how would ever know? haha. from what i have seen and heard over the years illegal gambling is still a thing in SK with tons of money on the line and at stake. when the 2010 savior matchfixing incident happened i knew it would not be the last of it and lore and behold, we have the sc2 matchfixing scandal with a new savior in Life.
The real villain of the scene is not savior. its the illegal gambling scene in SK. wake up sheeple. channel your negative emotions there, its the shit that tempting and ruining players lives.
(btw i feel so touched that 2 (different?) people responded to me within ~10 minutes on a beautiful morning with such passionate posts)
Basically this, any amateur BW player, especially probably Foreigners, would throw games for the amount of money sAviOr did, stop acting like you are all perfect and don't suffer from greed lol.
of course this reply comes from one of the biggest foreign scumbags around. Everyone knows you would do it but not all of us would.
The biggest problem of this scandal was that the people who were established and playing were the one matchfixing, not the ones that are expected: The B-teamers, the people trying to make it in, ones who are trying to impress ect. Matchfixing hit hardest because of who and the positions of those who did it. They were not small time amateurs
but nope, no use convincing someone as blind as you.
On February 02 2018 12:53 jinjin5000 wrote: and to other korean dude who is trying to vaidate it using terror's video, what savior is saying on stream and amount of money he took according to court document doesnt match up at all. And to trust a guy who already downplayed his crime and denied it on stream.... lol
How much is the real figure? I did some looking around and found that the $2000 USD figure is money that Savior pocketed that was supposed to go to the progamers who threw games.
That is to say, not only did he bully others into doing this, he then didn't even pay them their dues when they did it.
I can't believe anyone still defends or respects this shitbag.
On February 02 2018 12:53 jinjin5000 wrote: and to other korean dude who is trying to vaidate it using terror's video, what savior is saying on stream and amount of money he took according to court document doesnt match up at all. And to trust a guy who already downplayed his crime and denied it on stream.... lol
How much is the real figure? I did some looking around and found that the $2000 USD figure is money that Savior pocketed that was supposed to go to the progamers who threw games.
That is to say, not only did he bully others into doing this, he then didn't even pay them their dues when they did it.
I can't believe anyone still defends or respects this shitbag.
I dont know exact figure nor am i expert on this topic, but its widely considered the amount during terror interview he said he took was widely regarded as just fake/low figure in effort to downplay his crimes. Given that his stream often has him flat out denying/avoiding/downplaying his crime, you can't really trust him.
I recall Zeus said (although he is not reliable if you are going by anecdotes, but if that guy is using words from savior himself, I can too) savior took cuts from people he helped to matchfix too. He said theres no way that 2k figure is correct when he was asked that.
and let me take from what he [zeus] said- While savior didn't singlehandedly klil BW himself, since BW was already on downfall when savior did his matchfixing, he did make it go about 32x faster. Thats savior's main contribution, and made people lose their jobs almost overnight. You can't even justify this.
Also, to people arguing over him being able to stream: Him streaming BW itself is a spit on face of other progamers who suffered from his shit. The scene is quite packed and very inclusive with most of streamers being progamers who form their own cliques. Savior joining the afreeca scene does nothing but create toxicity among established people. There may be some who moved on/ignores savior now and try to run around the topic, but a lot of them still hold some kind of resentment.
And support savior to support the "competitiveness" of BW argument: Fuck off. He gets smashed by Britney. Savior isn't anywhere near competitive level as of now.
On February 02 2018 12:14 ggsimida wrote: if you are a progamer and a gambler comes along saying that if he will guarantee you USD 50000 to act as their middle man and manipulate and coerce younger gamers with a good chance of not getting caught, would you? how about 100000USD. half a m,illion?
sleazebag or saint, rich or poor ANYONE would immediately be tempted by such an offer don't try to stand on the moral high ground and give me the social justice savior condemnation nonsense rhetoric one has already heard a million trillion times over. the only difference savior was scumbag enough to accept their offer. and just because other gamers have a supposedly clean image doesn't mean they are automatically innocent. maybe they did accept and do similar matchfixing/rigging stuff, but they were smart enough to never get caught?? how would ever know? haha. from what i have seen and heard over the years illegal gambling is still a thing in SK with tons of money on the line and at stake. when the 2010 savior matchfixing incident happened i knew it would not be the last of it and lore and behold, we have the sc2 matchfixing scandal with a new savior in Life.
The real villain of the scene is not savior. its the illegal gambling scene in SK. wake up sheeple. channel your negative emotions there, its the shit that tempting and ruining players lives.
(btw i feel so touched that 2 (different?) people responded to me within ~10 minutes on a beautiful morning with such passionate posts)
Would you lie to your teammates face and promise him false sums of money just to trick him into match-fixing? Would you act nice and buy dinner to younger players, and try to guilt them into doing illegal activities afterwards? Would you pressure younger players who looked up to you by telling them that they "owe" you a personal favour? Would you purposefully trick your coach into thinking you're still good at the game by cheating during practice games and have the audacity to tell him face-to-face that you would never match-fix and it's just nerves you are suffering from? Would you create false diary entries saying you're trying so hard, and want to do the best for the team but things aren't quite working out, and purposefully display it for everyone to see on your bed? How far would you personally go for some extra cash?
I have no doubt that there were other gamers who match-fixed and were never caught. However, I also have zero doubt that sAviOr took it way further than anybody who escaped unscathed from punishment. sAviOr was not the root cause of all the consequences of the match-fixing scandal, but he knowingly used all of his reach and influence to propagate and spread what was poisoning the scene from the inside, at the cost of personal relationships of those who respected, trusted, and relied on him. You don't see dickheads like Justin trying to make sell a sob story to the Brood War community, and wisely so.
Like I said, go watch his shitty games if you want. Just don't expect too much sympathy when trying to make others feel sorry for the pains sAviOr went through, while at the same time glossing over the more horrifying ramifications of his numerous actions like they were nothing. It may seem like nothing to you, but that's not for you to decide and force down the throats of others.
Make his shitty stream viewer count to eleven for all I care. That's totally your call to make, but don't act like you have the moral high-ground. sAviOr's shitty past actions, his awful gaming skills, and his reliance on past drama may be fascinating to you, but it is all that's left of what was once a superlative player, and I don't feel guilty at all for calling him out for what he is.
On February 02 2018 12:53 jinjin5000 wrote: and to other korean dude who is trying to vaidate it using terror's video, what savior is saying on stream and amount of money he took according to court document doesnt match up at all. And to trust a guy who already downplayed his crime and denied it on stream.... lol
On February 02 2018 11:47 RWLabs wrote: According to his own words he was making over 50000000 won (~45000 USD) at the time and over his entire match-fixing he claims to have made 200000 won (~2000 USD). The numbers are probably bullshit since Savior is pleading for sympathy, but if you have more reliable numbers that can 'feed his family for years' with more than Buddy Burgers from A&W's, you're free to try. Not to mention, Savior had no problem 'feeding his family for years' without resorting to crime.
On February 02 2018 11:47 RWLabs wrote: And let's not act like he was a person who was humble and frugal. Savior was sporting luxury watches worth over 6500 USD. Think he was feeding his family with that? Maybe to better keep track of how long he put the turkey in the oven? Savior also made a killing from championships before Bisu came to play, and then he could've easily transitioned into the increasingly popular Afreeca to make money (which he later tried to do). So it wasn't some noble cause that made Savior break the law, he was a greedy twat who was frustrated that he was a weak player post-Bisu.
Read my post again please. My argument was that by his words he was offered rat shit for matchfixing so he had no magnanimous drive to feed his family. If the numbers are right Savior is a greedy bastard, if the numbers are wrong Savior is a conniving bastard who'd openly lie to thousands of fans after supposedly repenting.
I was Saviors biggest fan when he was playing, i followed him from when he just started up until the painful downfall after being crushed by Bisu. Even during his worst losing streaks i believed.
This being sad, fuck this guy and his stream. Nobody who manipulates lives of others (who were just kids) deserves any recognition or remorse.
On January 02 2018 12:15 paxconsciente wrote: People are way too resentful, the man makes one mistake trying to feed himself because his team had their hand in his wallet his entire career and a surprisingly significant portion of the bw community doesn't even want him to stream. 90% of those idiots would probably do the same thing and probably do it much quicker.
It is common that people with questionable ethics project their own moral deficiencies on others. People who struggle to be ethical aren't able to see that many people really may live significantly more ethical lives. This seems to be where you are struggling. Here's a tip: Good people exist and there are a lot of them. You don't seem to be one, and that's okay, but don't pretend it is normal or acceptable.
That was the nicest stfu I ever read in my life.
I wouldn't throw matches in a game of anything ever or cheat on a test. Its called integrity,
its always easy to say all that whilst sitting in your comfy armchair. If you come from a poor/modest upbringing and suddenly someone offers you crazy wads of cash (that can feed you and your family for years) to betray your principles, how many people would be able to retain their sanity to reject it then and there? 90% may be a gross exaggeration but i still bet a significant amount would fall for the temptation.
In this capitialistic world everyone has a price. even rich people go through all sorts of illegal hoops to maintain and increase their wealth through tax evasion, laundering and the like. the only difference savior and his ilk was unfortunate/stupid enough to not take enough measures to avoid getting caught.
conveniently ignoring the other points about his character i mentioned.
On February 02 2018 12:14 ggsimida wrote: if you are a progamer and a gambler comes along saying that if he will guarantee you USD 50000 to act as their middle man and manipulate and coerce younger gamers with a good chance of not getting caught, would you? how about 100000USD. half a m,illion?
sleazebag or saint, rich or poor ANYONE would immediately be tempted by such an offer don't try to stand on the moral high ground and give me the social justice savior condemnation nonsense rhetoric one has already heard a million trillion times over. the only difference savior was scumbag enough to accept their offer. and just because other gamers have a supposedly clean image doesn't mean they are automatically innocent. maybe they did accept and do similar matchfixing/rigging stuff, but they were smart enough to never get caught?? how would ever know? haha. from what i have seen and heard over the years illegal gambling is still a thing in SK with tons of money on the line and at stake. when the 2010 savior matchfixing incident happened i knew it would not be the last of it and lore and behold, we have the sc2 matchfixing scandal with a new savior in Life.
The real villain of the scene is not savior. its the illegal gambling scene in SK. wake up sheeple. channel your negative emotions there, its the shit that tempting and ruining players lives.
(btw i feel so touched that 2 (different?) people responded to me within ~10 minutes on a beautiful morning with such passionate posts)
Money isn't everything and the point being made about what type of person he is just goes over your head every time. Being tempted and acting on those impulses are what makes a man. Savior is a shitty one. He could match fix but he didnt have to use his star status to manipulate player to go down with him. Would you rob a bank if you were poor? I know i am not rich by a long shot but that doesn't mean i would sink to things just for some easy money. Sure its easy to say in my "comfy armchair" doesn't mean i am wrong though.