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Zoundsforsook
Scotland636 Posts
On May 31 2017 18:31 duplex__ wrote: yeah, Sayle was the best. His ironic commentary and game knowledge was so good. Hope he returns someday! After a stressful day I still like to load up old Sayle casts and listen to him while I lay in bed. Maybe it's the Disney singalongs or something but the whole atmosphere of his casts is somehow relaxing to me. | ||
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Elroi
Sweden5592 Posts
On May 31 2017 16:31 Psyonic_Reaver wrote: I'm going out on a limb and pick at an old scab. And maybe others could throw out their two cents. I will only speak about klaz, diggity, moletrap and myself in this regards because I've never spoken to the other casters about this. We got a LOT of hate. I mean it was brutal at times here on TL and GG. I could go back and dig up old threads where we were constantly torn apart but it's funny reading more recent threads in the past 2/3 years and people miss them/me and wish we would do more for BW again. The reason we stopped is that the voices yelling NO were louder than the voices yelling YES. We almost NEVER got positive feedback in any meaningful way. We'd get a thumbs up or a "nice cast!" but then pages and pages and pages of hate. That's why Klaz finally made the decision to truly stop casting. Yes, his writing/family was priority but the negativity finally got to him. As it did to us all eventually. Are people just looking through rose colored glasses here? All we did when we did what we did. We did for the love of the game and we would stay up night after night learning the game as best we could watching Korean games, talking to pro players, I even started practicing with the pro American players to gain better player insight but none of our passion seemed to matter. If we weren't tasteless/artosis, we were shit and that was that despite the leaps we had made. In some ways, I feel us YouTube casters brought many, many, MANY people to this game during the 2006-2010 period. None of the TL or GG guys were casting or putting up content. Artosis and Tasteless weren't. If you look through that period we were it for people that couldn't watch the games live or wanted to figure out the stream launchers, fuck even internet and streaming were fucking SHIT back then. Amazing how far it's come in 10/11 years. Nobody ever seems to recognize that it feels. Does anyone have any insight on that? I remember being so mad at the guys criticizing you. But even then Im sure a lot more people loved your content than not. Most people who enjoyed it were probably silent. I was definetly the most vocal when I had to defend klazart here on TL. Im still greatfull to this day for all the work you guys put in. Especially klaz. I love that guy. | ||
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Elroi
Sweden5592 Posts
On May 31 2017 17:54 moktira wrote: This is bringing up stuff that happened 10 years ago and as only an observer at the time my memories are a bit hazy, I used only lurk back then. It's tricky to write about and I know you know a lot of the history there too but for context I'm going to describe what I remember of those events too. I don't want to open up a can of worms though, we have moved on a lot. Firstly I don't think people are looking through rose-tinted lenses. I'm sure you perceived you got a lot of hate but the people who criticise you are always going to be louder than those that enjoy it but just watch it and keep quite. The early commentators generally were popular, checking VioleTAK there Klazart, Diggity and Moletrap triple commentary videos have 10k-40k views. In 2007/2008 these are big numbers. When Klazart started in 2007 I believe Superiorwolf was also commentating. As far as I remember they used both be active on TL and both received a good amount of support with a lot of constructive criticism. Kalzart was more popular but he didn't actively play the game (he had RSI in his wrist) and people would criticise his game knowledge. My memory is that initially some BW vets didn't like that but in general I think people were willing to help, and some were more diplomatic than others. After Klaz took a break that summer Moletrap and Diggity both started and as they knew each other the used work together a bit and then Klaz came back too. Again they were all criticised for a lack of analysis, they were all familiar with the scene but some things that all of them used to say were incorrect. I think you are correct in saying these English commentaries brought a lot of new people to BW and I would guess this increased casual viewership a lot. They were also inspiring more commentators to try their hand at it. However it was again mostly people who did not actively play so the analysis still wasn't great and this is what caused a lot of the hate. It wasn't just one person who you could help out and point things out, it was getting uncontrollable. This was getting vets to feel like the whole thing was bad for the scene as it was attracting new viewers but giving them wrong analysis, whereas the commentators felt like work they were pouring hours into each day was constantly being put down. I think what set it all off is when Diggity asked if someone could point out 100 things he said that were wrong. After a thread (that has now been galleried) here did this things escalated quickly (there were a lot of angry and emotional posts and I think Klaz in particular took it very personally). To them it felt like the commentators and their fans against the rest. This is what started SC2GG. SC2GG tried to attract a lot of casual viewers and I think there was an anti-TL attitude there because of what you described. TL was similarly quite dismissive of SC2GG (there was also some other stuff going on between staff too). However later there were some commentators who really tried to mend this divide, Cholera in particular was one who encouraged a healthy rivalry. Also you have to remember that TL was a small enough place in 2007, a lot of the vets knew each other and were friends. Not getting one or two of them on your side was a bad idea. Now you can't really get away with caster-bashing and in general this is a much more diplomatic place than it used be because the number of users exploded after SC2 was released. One other thing that happened in May 2007 was the announcement of SC2 so that might have brought more attention to the pro-scene and also brought more interest/viewers but I think those commentaries and the access to better streams and more regular VoDs helped a lot too. Anyway I'm sorry to hear that 10 years on you still feel like you were treated badly, I think all those commentators were more popular than you are making out there (as can be seen from VoD views and subscriber counts). The community was a lot more volatile and a lot less mature. As it was smaller too you had more clear-cut factions. When we're already down memory lane here... Thank you so much for uploading those bw vods when they were really hard to get because of the copyright issues. You were a life saver. | ||
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Psyonic_Reaver
United States4336 Posts
Ironically that is where my quote below my name originated from I haven't changed it from 2008 when I asked for feedback and one person wrote that I was bad and that was it. Haha. It's all in the past now anyways. I just wanted to see if there was any insight others could provide and it was nice to see it from multiple points of view. Thank you all. Next time I talk to diggity or moletrap. I'll see if I can get them to swing by this thread. | ||
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Lucumo
6850 Posts
On May 31 2017 16:31 Psyonic_Reaver wrote: In some ways, I feel us YouTube casters brought many, many, MANY people to this game during the 2006-2010 period. None of the TL or GG guys were casting or putting up content. Artosis and Tasteless weren't. If you look through that period we were it for people that couldn't watch the games live or wanted to figure out the stream launchers, fuck even internet and streaming were fucking SHIT back then. Amazing how far it's come in 10/11 years. Nobody ever seems to recognize that it feels. Tasteless casted 2008 XNote GOMTV Star Invitational and the three Classic Seasons in that time frame. Youtube had all the videos. Also, there was livestream and after that ustream and after that justin.tv (where you were one of the first to stream from, if I remember correctly). | ||
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paxconsciente
Belgium91 Posts
Moletrap had a very passionate casting style which he often let overpower him, that's normal and to be expected when you're casting a game in korea that you loved and basically living a dream. People, as usual, were dicks and gave him tons of shit, but with a bit more practice he would have been an excellent addition to the community. God, I could name plenty of casters way worse than moletrap ever was who didn't get 1/4th of the hate, it was truly one of the lowest points in our community, totally unacceptable. Personally, I would love to see moletrap back again for BW HD, really, i'm sure he would get less hate and in fact would be cherished if he casted replays. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On May 31 2017 20:53 Greg_J wrote: Maybe rose tinted glasses is bang on the money but I have nothing but good memories and respect for all mentioned in this thread. It is a real shame to hear that they got so much hate. I find it hard to believe. Oh I can believe it. Just from watching some comments on this forum/reddit on casters, they get shit on all the time. Even the good ones get a lot of hate. I feel bad for the casters that put so much time and effort and get so much hate, it's not easy and they aren't making that much money off of it. I commend all casters who can put up with it. | ||
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RainmanMP
United States1698 Posts
On June 01 2017 00:03 Dknight wrote: Sounds like the negativity directed to you was deserved then, no? That said, generally speaking, there was a lot of negativity in the BW scene back in the day across the spectrum. I know it drove a ton of volunteers away from various sites including myself (WGT, PGT, ICCup, etc.). I was never called out for that. I was called out because I talk with a bit of a lisp and got over excited sometimes. | ||
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NukeTheStars
United States277 Posts
On May 31 2017 16:31 Psyonic_Reaver wrote: We got a LOT of hate. I mean it was brutal at times here on TL and GG. I could go back and dig up old threads where we were constantly torn apart but it's funny reading more recent threads in the past 2/3 years and people miss them/me and wish we would do more for BW again. The reason we stopped is that the voices yelling NO were louder than the voices yelling YES. We almost NEVER got positive feedback in any meaningful way. We'd get a thumbs up or a "nice cast!" but then pages and pages and pages of hate. That's why Klaz finally made the decision to truly stop casting. Yes, his writing/family was priority but the negativity finally got to him. As it did to us all eventually. I think it depends on why the person becomes a caster. The more you do it for just yourself, the easier it is to do. I was never bothered much by haters because I was making everything mostly for my own amusement. But if you're trying really hard to make the audience happy, the negative feedback will probably kill your spirit. The more you do it for the audience, the more that negativity seems magnified. Every single caster in anything gets hate, mostly from entitled meganerds who simply aren't tuned to your frequency. It's a shame when they're louder than the rest, but there's usually just the same amount of them. | ||
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RainmanMP
United States1698 Posts
On June 01 2017 06:02 Lucumo wrote: Tasteless casted 2008 XNote GOMTV Star Invitational and the three Classic Seasons in that time frame. Youtube had all the videos. Also, there was livestream and after that ustream and after that justin.tv (where you were one of the first to stream from, if I remember correctly). Besides Artosis at SCForAll, there wasn't a whole lot of content out there back in the day. I also know that for me, I lost interest(and have still never fully recovered) from the original BW matchfixing scandal. Yes the GOMTV stuff for Tasteless was a lot, but I remember at SC2GG we had nearly every game covered with either casting or an article for the 5 days of Proleague on OGN and MBC as well as OSL and MSL. | ||
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Lebesgue
4542 Posts
I do remember that people here had extremely negative views on the casting by SC2gg commentators and I was really surprised by it. Especially that there was no better competition. Yes, Tasteless was casting GOM but that was it. So I never understood all that hatred. But I thought you guys got a lot of love on youtube. Sure, there were some guys who were flaming you (as is always the case) but you were getting a lot of good comments and a lot of views. I remember being quite disappointed when you stop regularly posting videos. It is really sad that you stopped due to negative feedback. And to be honest, I think few people that were watching english commentators were expecting super sharp analysis. No need to feel apologetic about that. You were doing a great job. | ||
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Jealous
10115 Posts
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Lebesgue
4542 Posts
On June 01 2017 06:31 RainmanMP wrote: Besides Artosis at SCForAll, there wasn't a whole lot of content out there back in the day. I also know that for me, I lost interest(and have still never fully recovered) from the original BW matchfixing scandal. Yes the GOMTV stuff for Tasteless was a lot, but I remember at SC2GG we had nearly every game covered with either casting or an article for the 5 days of Proleague on OGN and MBC as well as OSL and MSL. Exactly. There was very little content out there. SC2GG had every match covered. That was really amazing for a newcomer like me. And I don't rememeber GOM videos being available on youtube. I always had to go to GOM website to watch them which I found pretty annoying. | ||
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RainmanMP
United States1698 Posts
On June 01 2017 06:35 Lebesgue wrote: Exactly. There was very little content out there. SC2GG had every match covered. That was really amazing for a newcomer like me. And I don't rememeber GOM videos being available on youtube. I always had to go to GOM website to watch them which I found pretty annoying. Ya GOM stuff was only available on their site. I'm glad to see that other SC2GG'ers seem to be successful and happy now. MrBitter works in the industry now I believe. I have fond memories of writing with him and being the two big KT/KTF fanboys in the irc chat. | ||
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Jealous
10115 Posts
The reason I say this is because of some quote I read and agree with; person said they love haters and want more of them because that to them proves that they are getting noticed, getting bigger, doing things that make people Jealous because secretly they too want some of the spotlight. Still waiting for my first hater tho. | ||
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Varbind
Canada113 Posts
Anyway, THANKS SO MUCH GUYS!!!!!!! You really helped in kind of a dark time. | ||
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moktira
Ireland1543 Posts
On June 01 2017 04:06 Psyonic_Reaver wrote: I will concede the point that yes, early on we did make incorrect insights to builds and still did even as we strived to be better. I feel even the more professional casters to this day, day9, tasteless, artosis, Apollo, still make incorrect insights too but not very often, and I agree, the community here has mellowed out. But reddit and YouTube comments are still the absolute worst places... Ironically that is where my quote below my name originated from I haven't changed it from 2008 when I asked for feedback and one person wrote that I was bad and that was it. Haha. It's all in the past now anyways. I just wanted to see if there was any insight others could provide and it was nice to see it from multiple points of view. Thank you all. Next time I talk to diggity or moletrap. I'll see if I can get them to swing by this thread. Don't get me wrong, I was just trying to outline the view on both sides. On YouTube there is always a lot of idiotic comments, remember it's completely unmoderated and as Nuke said a lot of them have a bizarre feeling of entitlement. Just looking at your channel the oldest videos there have over a thousand views, the vast majority of those viewers will never comment, if 1% of them complain you will then see 10 negative comments but it's still insignificant, most are happy and probably enjoy it, it's just unfortunate for you that they don't express that. On June 01 2017 06:32 Jealous wrote: @moktira: Can I /please/ see the link of "100 things Diggity said wrong?" I tried searching but could not find ): It is galleried so we can't see it anymore. It was mostly quite nitpicky but there were some good points there. I think immediately Diggity reacted quite well to it saying that was the sort of constructive criticism that was useful but then it got very hostile on all sides after that. Anyway, this was maybe January 2008 and things have moved on, if you really want to know more of what I remember pm me. Also hello Elroi and NukeTheStars! Good to see you both still around, I hope you're both doing well. | ||
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RaccyG
14 Posts
I can see how people become disappointed when their favourite caster hasn't done an exciting match and so they have to turn elsewhere to get English coverage. But that's no reason to leave some angry comments in my opinion. I guess it's at least a good thing that this thread is turning a little bit into a ten years late caster appreciation thread. Therefore: Nuke <3 watching your videos was definitely one of my favourite pastimes during high-school and you probably played a key role in me learning English, too. Thank you! I still watch some of your classic hype videos from time to time for nostalgia purposes :D Edit: I'm convinced the vast majority of viewers does enjoy the videos. As has already been pointed out, people that are content don't comment as often. Also, it's always a lot easier to criticize others compared to actually doing it better - and I figure casting is hard, especially when you do it alone and when you do it for a community as hardcore as the Broodwar one! | ||
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
Casters are genuinely creating great content and the thing that makes hate so stupid is if you don't like it you don't have to listen to it. If you don't like it just watch the Korean videos. I think it's crazy to expect an English comentary and then complain it's not good enough for you. Times are a little different now because people do expect a good English cast and the element of casters been employed by Korean companies makes that expectation a little bit more reasonable. But back in the Klazart, Digity, Moletrap days these guys were basically doing it for the love of it and to hear they where taking such abuse makes me feel really bad. If they did't do it no one would have and many people wouldn't have fallen in love with Broodwar. | ||
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Greth
Belgium318 Posts
I did this because I wanted to offset myself from the other casters, who were doing the serious games. After a while I slipped more into an admin role at the website, mostly moderating the forums. It was a fight against TL.net from the start, as it was also working on reviving the ashes of its community after being near death for many years. TL.net made it, made the connections in eSports while the SC2GG crew was left behind to fend for itself. There was a lot of direct hatred and boycotting going on back then. I can remember the amount of shit the casters got in the tl.net IRC while one of the first foreign bw streams ever was attempted by the SC2GG crew. It was a constant droning of negativity as Psy said. Every cast there would be the question of 'Why are you doing this?', 'Korean casts are so much better, just stop.', 'You don't know shit about the game, shut the fuck up', etc... It broke any attempt at getting these guys off the ground; segregated SC2GG and tl.net and the site slowly bled out. I honestly was a SC2GG fundamentalist myself, things could have gone differently for a lot of people if we would have just joined forces. I know a lot of people made the jump to TL.net, and nobody was left to do anything with SC2GG once the game was actually out. Once we got on the press list at Blizzcon - me representing the site at two events - it was clear that we didn't really exist. The deals had been made, the plans set. But I'll be honest, we weren't staffed, we weren't prepared. We had the casters and some writers and a whole bunch of lurkers that seem to come out now to glorify those days ... But SC2GG was a shell of a site for a very long time. The irony, of course, was that SC2 was a terrible game to cast. It's the main reason I quit doing my low level games back then. Everyone wanted SC2 and was blinded enough by the hope of eSports to ignore the terrible state of the game and push away everything BW. TL.net got the eSports dream and we got years of an artificial scene built up on a game that was never in a proper competitive state compared to Brood War. But now that SC2 is running out of life support we are all going to glorify the early BW days again. I'm glad though... Because I'm finally able to speak my mind again about SC2 without being hammered into the ground by people who clearly know better than me. But we wrote that prophecy many years ago, and it wasn't a hard thing to predict. So yeah ... I'm fucking bitter about the whole thing. I'm a bitter grizzled veteran of a war everyone seemed to have missed. I've come to terms with 'missing my shot' back then. But hey, I'm making videos again and I'll wait for that meteor to strike me I guess. I won't go out of my way to whore out - another thing none of the SC2GG dudes ever did - not compared to HD or husky (which ironically we told they really needed to improve in order to be part of the SC2GG crew - guess that didn't matter if you have the marketing down). I guess the SC2GG casters were too honest, were too much into the casting of the game instead of playing the scene instead. We weren't there to make a living, really. We were there to show people Brood War, and that was a mistake. | ||
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