EPTHey kids good to see you all back
What happened to Moletrap? - Page 9
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zatic
Zurich15317 Posts
Hey kids good to see you all back | ||
Xeofreestyler
Belgium6766 Posts
On June 13 2017 03:16 zatic wrote: What ever happened to SuperCommander8 or whatever his name was who was a superhacker and poised to destroy TL. Hey kids good to see you all back <3 Nobody ever really leaves starcraft ... and especially not TL  | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
On June 12 2017 19:47 Moletrap wrote: LOL, probably someone else... I listened to Korean language mp3s on ipod while jogging along the river in Seoul. I did work in a warehouse, once, which is part of where my name came from... maybe the stories are getting mixed up?  There were moles in your warehouse? | ||
Arrian
United States889 Posts
On June 13 2017 03:16 zatic wrote: What ever happened to SuperCommander8 or whatever his name was who was a superhacker and poised to destroy TL. Hey kids good to see you all back holy crap it's zatic | ||
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imp42
398 Posts
On May 28 2017 12:07 AssyrianKing wrote: I don't know why people didn't like Moletrap, he was very passionate I for one thought his excitement (in SC2, where he was not liked) sounded fake. | ||
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EndingLife
United States1587 Posts
On June 13 2017 03:16 zatic wrote: What ever happened to SuperCommander8 or whatever his name was who was a superhacker and poised to destroy TL. Hey kids good to see you all back SuperCondomUser? | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
But I do have to wonder if a lot of the streamer animosity came from the bitter feelings surrounding the developing BW vs SC2 fights. I know that for some streamers, I definitely felt a sense that they were abandoning the game not for a better game, but out of a selfish desire to "make it big." Whether or not that was fair is almost irrelevant at this point; it happened, people had resentment, and we all hated each other over it. Given the rather narrow band of one to two years of most streamers disappeared, I wonder if that played a role. | ||
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RoieTRS
United States2569 Posts
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B12ad
United States137 Posts
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cannedbeans
32 Posts
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On June 14 2017 03:15 LegalLord wrote: Why Moletrap wasn't liked in SC2 is something that I simply don't know much about. I was aware that he was particularly disliked, but I never knew why. I wasn't interested enough in SC2 to find out. But I do have to wonder if a lot of the streamer animosity came from the bitter feelings surrounding the developing BW vs SC2 fights. I know that for some streamers, I definitely felt a sense that they were abandoning the game not for a better game, but out of a selfish desire to "make it big." Whether or not that was fair is almost irrelevant at this point; it happened, people had resentment, and we all hated each other over it. Given the rather narrow band of one to two years of most streamers disappeared, I wonder if that played a role. wow.. that's actually quite spot on and rings true to me. And you managed to say it w/o the big bias many people bring into the debate. Honestly, well said. | ||
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RaiKageRyu
Canada4773 Posts
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
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Jealous
10106 Posts
On June 14 2017 03:15 LegalLord wrote: Why Moletrap wasn't liked in SC2 is something that I simply don't know much about. I was aware that he was particularly disliked, but I never knew why. I wasn't interested enough in SC2 to find out. But I do have to wonder if a lot of the streamer animosity came from the bitter feelings surrounding the developing BW vs SC2 fights. I know that for some streamers, I definitely felt a sense that they were abandoning the game not for a better game, but out of a selfish desire to "make it big." Whether or not that was fair is almost irrelevant at this point; it happened, people had resentment, and we all hated each other over it. Given the rather narrow band of one to two years of most streamers disappeared, I wonder if that played a role. You know, I've never casted as prolifically as the people mentioned in this thread and I've only been casting very casually like once/twice a week for about 8 months now, and I think that this really hits the nail on the head for me now that I've gained some perspective on the other end of it. Here is my thinking process, not really as an inductive list, just some notes: 1. People who cast put in a lot of work. Even just to get the program to connect to Twitch and display Brood War is a headache, and was just as much if not more so in the past. I remember when I first started streaming all the way back then, it was using Camtasia and Adobe or FMLE or whatever it was and then Justin.tv and boy was it a fucking nightmare. So with that in mind, we can't forget that everything that goes into a cast is lots of work too. After your cast you have to process, edit, etc. which is again a pain right now but was probably even moreso back then. Let's also not forget about promotion and the other social elements of it. These are diverse requirements and demands placed upon people who are doing this as a hobby, "for fun," or at least that's how they started out. In other words, to even start out, you have to be relatively invested (assuming you have any sort of standards for yourself). If you aren't, people will complain, talk shit, berate, or simply ignore and that would be an unsatisfying venture as a result so I think it needs to be pointed out that to even have your name out there, there is a massive barrier of entry imo. 2. You enter a market that already has professional voices and professional players as an amateur. Therefore, comparison not only to your nearest peers in terms of skill/voice/presentation, but also to those who are at the top of the two peaks - skill and commentary. People with skills who are keyboard warriors will often be more correct than you about game elements, and they SHOULD point it out because in my opinion entertainment is just as important as accuracy and education in casting this game. People with professional commentating experience and positions will often sound better, be more natural on camera/in front of the microphone, and have more chemistry with other casters. It's almost like Brood War itself, where everyone starts off as a scrub but at this point in the game there are A rank players ready to whoop your ass. The difference is that you are putting your name out there to the masses, and likely promoting yourself at the same time, unlike NoobieZerg123 on ICCup who just plays the game in silence/privacy. The other difference is that the pressures from this line of work don't end when you log off ICCup or turn off the recording device - because it is a multimedia, interpersonal pursuit, the work doesn't really leave you until you turn off the computer entirely, and even then it can be on your mind. 3. The point in your post that really caught my attention here and that I have been thinking about recently in light of this discussion is that people got a certain following and tried to "go big." It's one thing to be compared to the professional commentators and the high level gamers' knowledge as a casual caster who does it for fun, but once you start getting a bit of an ego, or a dream, or a desire for more fame/exposure, you may begin to think of competing with the pros. This in turn raises the standards of people around you for your product, and the competition with the top is now direct. It's no surprise that many people didn't make it once that transition happened, no offense to anyone reading who was in that situation - we're not all cut out to be Olympians, rocket scientists, or professional commentators. I don't want to target anyone directly, but in the past few years there was a commentator with a clear lisp who seemed to be trying to make it big... I mean, come on. That's like trying to go pro in Brood War in 2017 with one arm and a shitty internet connection that turns off when your mom charges her vibrator. In summary, the rise and fall of some of the casters can be looked at through the following avenues: Casual commentator -> Get shat on by the community too much -> quit Casual commentator -> Get some praise, get a big head -> try to go big -> get shat on by the community -> quit Casual commentator -> Get some praise -> try to go big -> can't cut it compared to the established pros -> quit Casual commentator -> New game comes out, think it's your time to rein in some followers -> get shat on by the community -> quit Casual commentator -> Life gets more hectic and you can't keep it up anymore -> quit I'm sure you can remove, rearrange, and combine some of the above elements to play your own version of the "Life: The eSports Commentator Edition" board game, but I think that the desire for more is something that is probably overlooked as an unrealistic fault by some. | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
On June 13 2017 03:16 zatic wrote: What ever happened to SuperCommander8 or whatever his name was who was a superhacker and poised to destroy TL. Hey kids good to see you all back you mean the guy from SC2GG with the Manifesto7-esque name? i think the C stood for communism | ||
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SchAmToo
United States1141 Posts
I know people who have succeeded in all instances, it's a lot of luck. That's why persistence is key, some people get lucky really frickin quickly and so they don't have to go through the stages of being persistent. Some people cast for years and years and eventually get their big break. The biggest important things I've noticed about people who've gone from casual to pro -> Did they have the ability to give up everything? Did they give up everything and have 1000 hours a week to devote to casting/personality stuff? and most importantly Did they have an avenue of becoming a professional caster? That last question is key. It doesn't mean anything specific, but it asks if the person had networks of friends to leverage, a lot of money, good equipment, something to springboard them from being just a casual to the next level, and most of all, the goal to do so. Me? I'm a casual commentator. I probably will never explode into fame because it would take a lot to draw me from my day job, so i play it casual. Many of the people i know in the sc2/heroes scene who've gone the distance and cast HGC and all that had it as a goal, or as a way to divert from being a player/personality into caster/personality. Because of these things tho, I go in and out of being a commentator. Is that fair to say about everyone in this thread? I don't know the full story but for every person who is a big-deal caster in SC/HOTS/etc right now? Theres 100 that started off at the same time, and eventually they just didn't see it as viable, fun, or interesting anymore. /end rambling. | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
On January 29 2011 17:22 jalstar wrote: I don't have as many stories as most of the posters who get to 5k. I didn't play much on iccup and I only got gold league in SC2. So I decided to go from all the VODs in the TL database from June 2009 to the present, see which games I remember watching, and tell a quick story about why. Then I realized that would take way too long, so here's a bunch of English commentaries from when I started watching BW. I only picked games I definitely remember watching. Leta vs Lomo on Shades of Twilight, proleague OZ vs hite which Cholera had decided to cast because it was important for the playoff race or something, I don't know. The only reason I remember this is because both terran names started with L, most of the early games I watched were a blur and I didn't know who either player was at the time, it wasn't even a great game. Backho vs Yarnc from the same series. This was my first introduction to the Jaedong/Lomo/Backho love triangle, which was nearly confirmed by this interview. http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/1722275 Idra vs Yayba from an SC2GG tournament. (the one that "useful skill toi have" came from, though that was an earlier series with Draco) My first introduction to how fucking solid Idra is, as well as how entertaining future WCG semifinalist Yayba is. The epic Flash vs firebathero game. I didn't get why people complained about TvT until I started watching proleague regularly, because good TvTs are so awesome to watch. And if you're not watching a lot of games, the length isn't a problem. Piano vs Canata from the Avalon MSL. Don't even bother asking why I remember this, I have no idea. Bisu vs fantasy, also from Avalon MSL. fantasy made like no units and one commentator suggested that Bisu was throwing OSL to fantasy while fantasy was throwing MSL to Bisu. Boxer vs Reach from e-stars. When I started watching BW I was surprised at the amount of respect old players get, with most sports you tend to get people thinking old players should retire already (Brett Favre anyone?) and looking for the next big thing. Calm vs great from the 2009 playoffs. Nothing special about this except an underwhelming ending to the first Bo7 I ever watched. A GIRL WON A GAME? AGAINST THAT GUY CHOLERA WORSHIPS AS A GOD? Boxer vs Yellow on Nostalgia. Besides a few LAN games I had only played the SC campaign, where you used almost every unit. So I was wondering why these pros used only 3-4 units every game. Then Boxer nuked Yellow. Savior vs Nada on Neo Medusa. I guess I just thought mech play was nice, and that Savior's face looked kind of weird. Didn't really know who they were yet. Jaedong vs Canata on Carthage. My first intro to the role of scouting in BW, he kept an expo hidden forever. Hyuk beating Jaedong. Apparently this was a huge upset or something? Bisu vs Iris game 5. Iris' comeback was almost as insane as Klazart's wpm. Best game I had watched up to that point by far. Fantasy vs Jaedong from PL, one of the first VODs I watched in Korean. Also a precursor to Flash's mass tank build against Calm in the EVER OSL. Jaedong 4-pooling fantasy as revenge for the proleague finals. I really got a sense for Bo5s and rivalries after this. I stayed up almost all night to watch the PL finals and it was the first time I watched BW live. Everyone was hyping a Bisu vs Jaedong finals and instead we got this cheesefest. I was not disappointed. So apparently BeSt was some sort of monster and Lomo was a bit of a joke. That just made Lomo's comeback all the more impressive though. Calm vs Kwanro from MSL finals. The first game was epic (and showed that Kwanro was completely outclassed) but the rest of the games were meh. So yeah, I could go through games from late 2009 and all of 2010 but that would take forever since my memory's improved since then, and also this is a good way to introduce people to some good English commentary, Cholera especially was very good in the months before he quit. Thanks to all the English casters, everyone who streams, every LR thread OP and poster, and all of TL for making me love this so much. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On June 20 2017 08:40 Jealous wrote: You know, I've never casted as prolifically as the people mentioned in this thread and I've only been casting very casually like once/twice a week for about 8 months now, and I think that this really hits the nail on the head for me now that I've gained some perspective on the other end of it. Here is my thinking process, not really as an inductive list, just some notes: 1. People who cast put in a lot of work. Even just to get the program to connect to Twitch and display Brood War is a headache, and was just as much if not more so in the past. I remember when I first started streaming all the way back then, it was using Camtasia and Adobe or FMLE or whatever it was and then Justin.tv and boy was it a fucking nightmare. So with that in mind, we can't forget that everything that goes into a cast is lots of work too. After your cast you have to process, edit, etc. which is again a pain right now but was probably even moreso back then. Let's also not forget about promotion and the other social elements of it. These are diverse requirements and demands placed upon people who are doing this as a hobby, "for fun," or at least that's how they started out. In other words, to even start out, you have to be relatively invested (assuming you have any sort of standards for yourself). If you aren't, people will complain, talk shit, berate, or simply ignore and that would be an unsatisfying venture as a result so I think it needs to be pointed out that to even have your name out there, there is a massive barrier of entry imo. 2. You enter a market that already has professional voices and professional players as an amateur. Therefore, comparison not only to your nearest peers in terms of skill/voice/presentation, but also to those who are at the top of the two peaks - skill and commentary. People with skills who are keyboard warriors will often be more correct than you about game elements, and they SHOULD point it out because in my opinion entertainment is just as important as accuracy and education in casting this game. People with professional commentating experience and positions will often sound better, be more natural on camera/in front of the microphone, and have more chemistry with other casters. It's almost like Brood War itself, where everyone starts off as a scrub but at this point in the game there are A rank players ready to whoop your ass. The difference is that you are putting your name out there to the masses, and likely promoting yourself at the same time, unlike NoobieZerg123 on ICCup who just plays the game in silence/privacy. The other difference is that the pressures from this line of work don't end when you log off ICCup or turn off the recording device - because it is a multimedia, interpersonal pursuit, the work doesn't really leave you until you turn off the computer entirely, and even then it can be on your mind. 3. The point in your post that really caught my attention here and that I have been thinking about recently in light of this discussion is that people got a certain following and tried to "go big." It's one thing to be compared to the professional commentators and the high level gamers' knowledge as a casual caster who does it for fun, but once you start getting a bit of an ego, or a dream, or a desire for more fame/exposure, you may begin to think of competing with the pros. This in turn raises the standards of people around you for your product, and the competition with the top is now direct. It's no surprise that many people didn't make it once that transition happened, no offense to anyone reading who was in that situation - we're not all cut out to be Olympians, rocket scientists, or professional commentators. I don't want to target anyone directly, but in the past few years there was a commentator with a clear lisp who seemed to be trying to make it big... I mean, come on. That's like trying to go pro in Brood War in 2017 with one arm and a shitty internet connection that turns off when your mom charges her vibrator. In summary, the rise and fall of some of the casters can be looked at through the following avenues: Casual commentator -> Get shat on by the community too much -> quit Casual commentator -> Get some praise, get a big head -> try to go big -> get shat on by the community -> quit Casual commentator -> Get some praise -> try to go big -> can't cut it compared to the established pros -> quit Casual commentator -> New game comes out, think it's your time to rein in some followers -> get shat on by the community -> quit Casual commentator -> Life gets more hectic and you can't keep it up anymore -> quit I'm sure you can remove, rearrange, and combine some of the above elements to play your own version of the "Life: The eSports Commentator Edition" board game, but I think that the desire for more is something that is probably overlooked as an unrealistic fault by some. This is a pretty damn articulate, accurate post in my opinion. I agree pretty strongly with all those points. There is definitely a barrier of entry to casting. It's not the Camtasia + FMLE days anymore, but it's still a learning curve just to get a working screen and good presentation up on twitch. Then there is the matter of filling out calendar events, preparing stuff for casts, etc. I'd say for every cast there is probably a good 45 minutes to an hour on both sides of it just for some really light informing people about your cast and a highlight + export to YT so people can watch the VOD if they want. Point number 2 really struck out with me about how casting is inherently different than say playing BW. You can be an anonymous BW player, but you can't be an anonymous caster (well, I can't imagine anyone wanting to do so anyway). So it's like being a D- newbie but having to advertise it to the world and put your skill out there in front of people. With regards to point 3, I think its pretty accurate there too. I know for me the key to beind shat on (although I rarely seem to get hate) is that you can't really be casting for praise/adulation. I started casting D ranks games cause some people mentioned it would be cool if their games were casted and I thought "sure, why the fuck not; if some people enjoy it then it's worth it to me". So even if I had 20 voices yelling about how bad I sucked if I had one person tell me they enjoyed the cast I had all the value I needed to be totally satisfied. One other thing I would add is that there are different ways to try and "go big" or at least different ways intensities of doing it. Like on the one hand you can go all crazy, start talking about all these goals, trying to do big events, etc. and yes if you're sticking your neck out into that arena it's more expected that you'll be really good. Most good casters bring either a good voice/style OR a really solid game knowledge, usually on par with strong amateur (think high master/D or better fish) or approaching pro level. If you're a C- guy that wants to be a big thing in casting then you absolutely must have a REALLY good voice and excellent, excitement inducing (without being over the top) casting style. I think regardless of who you are though, casting and playing BW go hand in hand. If you're trying to be a big deal caster and aren't playing seriously, it just doesn't look good and you aren't do anything to add to that game knowledge weak spot. This jives pretty well with who some of the top casters have been: Incontrol, Artosis, Day9, Tasteless, and Sayle all come to mind. The first 4 were all A- or better ICCup players competitive on the foreign stage, and Sayle was a low apm, B- protoss that really put quite a bit of time into talking to other good players to learn the other matchups quite proficiently. Actually thinking about it, I'm not sure there has ever been a super popular/accepted solo caster that wasn't reasonably high level. If you have killer play by play, you could probably be successful "making it big" IF you had a high level player casting with you for play by play. I'm not sure a pure play by play guy could ever make it big without a partner who knew what he was talking about. MTA: Actually Husky/HD might be a pair that did. I don't know enough about their story and how popular they got in SC2. They had a following in BW, but weren't "big time"; but I seem to remember like a Husky/HD invite and some other things in SC2? | ||
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AlgeriaT
Sweden2195 Posts
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Samba
Germany452 Posts
On June 11 2017 17:34 Moletrap wrote: + Show Spoiler + Well, I guess I can bring it full circle and answer the original question Nuke, stop spilling my secrets!!!Although its kind of cool that this turned into a nostalgia thread, and so many old casters and fans have chimed in! I had some rants ready to go, but since things got all warm and fuzzy now, I'll hold back. I'll make some brief comments about some other things that have come up in this thread though, since I have kind of a unique perspective on some of them... First of all, +1 on whiners not knowing as much as they think they know. Let me first fully admit that when I started I knew absolutely nothing. But I got better and people ignored that silly fact. And yes, I never knew everything, and I made mistakes. But I loved it when people criticized me for saying something that I just watched Flash do 10 times or something that a progamer told me in the Gom studio. I appreciate that you're Diamond, kid, but I'm gonna defer to what the Code S players told me about the matchup. But if you complain hard enough, people will believe YOU know what you're talking about. SMH. And something I'll add is that if you think you get a lot of shit on Youtube, where people watching you is voluntary, wait til you are casting a public tournament where it goes from "you suck I'm out" to "you suck and you're ruining something I care about." I never had people request I commit suicide until I started at Gom. But what I tried to do was filter it all through a sieve and see what nuggets of shit wisdom were left, and then tried to improve myself. I think a lot of people had their minds set and wouldn't change their opinions when I did improve, though. Second, there is a lot of backstabbing in this community, now this industry. I know that Psy and Dig have both gotten royally screwed over in the past, as have I, and I'll bet others have too. eSports companies are generally pretty shitty to work for, often asking too much, being inconsiderate, forgetting to pay, and breaking agreements. And I'm not going to name names but specific people in the industry have screwed me pretty hard, too. And some people were not all the community cracked them up to be. Oh, the stories I could tell, hahaha.. That said, some specific people were really helpful and supportive, too, and there are a couple people that weren't well liked but who were actually good people... but I don't think people know what a generally cutthroat place eSports is behind the scenes. So what kept me going in the Youtube days? The knowledge that there were people like those of you in this thread who were getting something great out of it. I knew that the people throwing shade were either too stupid to realize or too afraid (I think you're right about that VioleTAK) to acknowledge that we were bringing more fresh eyes to the scene than had ever been brought before. That I was actually helping them even though they hated me for it. (Klazart even used to tell people in every video to go to TL) But most of all because of all of the comments of thanks and the emails telling me about what a positive impact I was having on people's lives, giving them something to relax to after school or sometimes something to give their life meaning in dark times. Not only did I selfishly enjoy casting, but if I stop, the assholes win and I stop helping people. In that context, there was no way I could stop. So I took the high road and just kept faith in my knowledge that quitting was the wrong choice. The thing that is in common between all of the Youtubers mentioned in this thread is that we all did it out of passion for the game and the scene. Then I went to GomTV, and then OGN, and the hate intensified greatly, and seemed to outweigh the positive feedback. And Korea was already a rough time in my life for reasons unrelated to the casting hate, and so being shit on daily on social media didn't help. But I never went into a broadcast with the negative on my mind. I always just cleared my mind and enjoyed the game and did the best broadcast I could. I still refused to quit to satisfy my critics, to let them win like that, but for reasons I won't go into the specifics of, eventually staying in Korea became untenable for me. Anyway, when I got back from KR, there weren't really any options for me to get another casting job, and so to answer the question of "what happened to moletrap" I'll quote Klazart from his thread that was just linked by Moktira to explain: Commentating: I had a blast doing it but it took up a lot of my time since I can't do anything by halfs. If I did one commentary I'd end up doing fifty. Plus, if you want to do it properly you can't just do one commentary, you got to watch all the games and stay up to date with the scene and I just didn't have the time to keep up with it anymore. So it was all or nothing, and since it wasn't all, it had to be nothing. I was burnt out from all the hate, and my Youtube viewership had all left, so I didn't feel like I was doing anyone a service, so I turned my back on esports and didn't watch a single professional SC match for years. I got a "real" job in the field I was in before casting, education. I actually got my start in casting while procrastinating from my grad school homework. And actually, I wanted to combine the two, and get people to let me use professional educational methods to improve the field of LoL and SC coaching, but everyone ignored me on that. So I spent some time getting my life back together (I went through yet more personal drama shortly after returning to the US) and advanced my education career. I taught high school for a few years, and it was really amusing when my students found out I was slightly efamous. One time I actually caught a kid watching one of my videos on his phone in class, and another time a fellow teacher found out who I was while we were talking in the copy room told me he was a big fan. Surreal. Last summer/fall I spent some months on an epic road trip through the rocky mountains, living in my car. Most recently I spent some months chillin with friends and family while hunting for a job. And this thread is extremely timely, because just this week I got a fantastic new job in education working for a non-profit. It's kind of the culmination of my career thus far, and it's going to be an exciting challenge that scares me a little but that I'm also looking forward to. Brood War Remastered admittedly has me a little intrigued... and since BW doesn't change every 5 minutes like SC2, I feel like I still mostly understand the game, although I'd have to catch up with the meta. I've watched a little ASL and it's pretty neat to Flash back to the BeSt times of Brood War, with all the old pros switching back to it. I'm really glad that Tasteless and Artosis are doing it, because they have the history to give the proper appreciation to the old days. That's the one thing I was most sad about leaving Gom, actually, was that I was the only one bringing the rich history to Code A, which had so many old B teamers and veterans. And ASL needs it even more, but Nick and Dan know what's up. Oh man... there's so much nostalgic waxing I could do now that my mind is there. Maybe I should write more about the old days before I forget it all. Maybe we all should. I'll end with adding my thanks to all of you folks who I casted with or beside, and who made it possible, and who kept us going with your appreciations. Our far fetched dreams of spreading eSports around the world have been realized, at least in some form. We were the pioneers of what is now a legitimate industry. Good game, well played. Ok, first of all, it was incredible fucked up what happened to you at GOM... after every commentary of you i raged at and argued with all the morons in the comment section and i legit canceled my Gom subscription after you were gone. But i just wanted to say that YOU were the one that got little noob me into competitve BW. I was one of those new eyes that only got to love BW because of you, diggity, klaz, cholera, rise....and im still subscribed to the violeTAK channel. You guys were the only way to get to know the game because i was way to afraid to post here on TL where everybody seemed to know each other and if you said something wrong god help you. I know i posted here and there on your channel to thank you and whatnot, but i´m really grateful for all your guys work and will never forget the time! This thread took me to some nostalgic places...to the pioneers! ^^ | ||
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