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United Kingdom12027 Posts
On May 31 2017 09:04 NukeTheStars wrote:
I heard Moletrap was arrested. He led hundreds of police, state troopers, SWAT teams, firefighters, and National Guardsmen in a high-speed chase to Chicago, trying to deliver the funds to save an orphanage. He was successful before he was apprehended.
Now I realise this is a blues brothers reference, but I can't quite figure out how you've related Moletrap to it haha.
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I'm going out on a limb and pick at an old scab. And maybe others could throw out their two cents.
I will only speak about klaz, diggity, moletrap and myself in this regards because I've never spoken to the other casters about this.
We got a LOT of hate. I mean it was brutal at times here on TL and GG. I could go back and dig up old threads where we were constantly torn apart but it's funny reading more recent threads in the past 2/3 years and people miss them/me and wish we would do more for BW again. The reason we stopped is that the voices yelling NO were louder than the voices yelling YES. We almost NEVER got positive feedback in any meaningful way. We'd get a thumbs up or a "nice cast!" but then pages and pages and pages of hate. That's why Klaz finally made the decision to truly stop casting. Yes, his writing/family was priority but the negativity finally got to him. As it did to us all eventually.
Are people just looking through rose colored glasses here?
All we did when we did what we did. We did for the love of the game and we would stay up night after night learning the game as best we could watching Korean games, talking to pro players, I even started practicing with the pro American players to gain better player insight but none of our passion seemed to matter. If we weren't tasteless/artosis, we were shit and that was that despite the leaps we had made.
In some ways, I feel us YouTube casters brought many, many, MANY people to this game during the 2006-2010 period. None of the TL or GG guys were casting or putting up content. Artosis and Tasteless weren't. If you look through that period we were it for people that couldn't watch the games live or wanted to figure out the stream launchers, fuck even internet and streaming were fucking SHIT back then. Amazing how far it's come in 10/11 years. Nobody ever seems to recognize that it feels.
Does anyone have any insight on that?
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On May 31 2017 16:31 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:
(...)
In some ways, I feel us YouTube casters brought many, many, MANY people to this game during the 2006-2010 period. None of the TL or GG guys were casting or putting up content. Artosis and Tasteless weren't. If you look through that period we were it for people that couldn't watch the games live or wanted to figure out the stream launchers, fuck even internet and streaming were fucking SHIT back then. Amazing how far it's come in 10/11 years. Nobody ever seems to recognize that it feels.
Does anyone have any insight on that?
*checks TL join date*
uh, yup. I think the first pro matches I watched were nukethestars and petzergling (maybe?) casts of an MSL back before I knew what an MSL was. (Or maybe it was an OSL?)
I've loved it ever since, so hopefully that's a glimmer of light in the negativity. :/
I know exactly what you mean about negativity towards casters, I think most of us have been guilty of it at one point or another. When you're passionate about something it's easy for that to spill over, but that doesn't make it ok. I can see how hard that would be.
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moktira
Ireland1546 Posts
This is bringing up stuff that happened 10 years ago and as only an observer at the time my memories are a bit hazy, I used only lurk back then. It's tricky to write about and I know you know a lot of the history there too but for context I'm going to describe what I remember of those events too. I don't want to open up a can of worms though, we have moved on a lot.
Firstly I don't think people are looking through rose-tinted lenses. I'm sure you perceived you got a lot of hate but the people who criticise you are always going to be louder than those that enjoy it but just watch it and keep quite. The early commentators generally were popular, checking VioleTAK there Klazart, Diggity and Moletrap triple commentary videos have 10k-40k views. In 2007/2008 these are big numbers.
When Klazart started in 2007 I believe Superiorwolf was also commentating. As far as I remember they used both be active on TL and both received a good amount of support with a lot of constructive criticism. Kalzart was more popular but he didn't actively play the game (he had RSI in his wrist) and people would criticise his game knowledge. My memory is that initially some BW vets didn't like that but in general I think people were willing to help, and some were more diplomatic than others.
After Klaz took a break that summer Moletrap and Diggity both started and as they knew each other the used work together a bit and then Klaz came back too. Again they were all criticised for a lack of analysis, they were all familiar with the scene but some things that all of them used to say were incorrect.
I think you are correct in saying these English commentaries brought a lot of new people to BW and I would guess this increased casual viewership a lot. They were also inspiring more commentators to try their hand at it. However it was again mostly people who did not actively play so the analysis still wasn't great and this is what caused a lot of the hate. It wasn't just one person who you could help out and point things out, it was getting uncontrollable. This was getting vets to feel like the whole thing was bad for the scene as it was attracting new viewers but giving them wrong analysis, whereas the commentators felt like work they were pouring hours into each day was constantly being put down.
I think what set it all off is when Diggity asked if someone could point out 100 things he said that were wrong. After a thread (that has now been galleried) here did this things escalated quickly (there were a lot of angry and emotional posts and I think Klaz in particular took it very personally). To them it felt like the commentators and their fans against the rest. This is what started SC2GG.
SC2GG tried to attract a lot of casual viewers and I think there was an anti-TL attitude there because of what you described. TL was similarly quite dismissive of SC2GG (there was also some other stuff going on between staff too). However later there were some commentators who really tried to mend this divide, Cholera in particular was one who encouraged a healthy rivalry.
Also you have to remember that TL was a small enough place in 2007, a lot of the vets knew each other and were friends. Not getting one or two of them on your side was a bad idea. Now you can't really get away with caster-bashing and in general this is a much more diplomatic place than it used be because the number of users exploded after SC2 was released.
One other thing that happened in May 2007 was the announcement of SC2 so that might have brought more attention to the pro-scene and also brought more interest/viewers but I think those commentaries and the access to better streams and more regular VoDs helped a lot too.
Anyway I'm sorry to hear that 10 years on you still feel like you were treated badly, I think all those commentators were more popular than you are making out there (as can be seen from VoD views and subscriber counts). The community was a lot more volatile and a lot less mature. As it was smaller too you had more clear-cut factions.
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I' m pretty sure it was by finding those vods in english that i got into broodwar in the first place around 2008;
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On May 31 2017 16:31 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:
(...)
In some ways, I feel us YouTube casters brought many, many, MANY people to this game during the 2006-2010 period. None of the TL or GG guys were casting or putting up content. Artosis and Tasteless weren't. If you look through that period we were it for people that couldn't watch the games live or wanted to figure out the stream launchers, fuck even internet and streaming were fucking SHIT back then. Amazing how far it's come in 10/11 years. Nobody ever seems to recognize that it feels.
Does anyone have any insight on that?
Psy – I actually liked your content in particular. I don’t think I ever posted that anywhere, so I suppose I was part of the problem. Unfortunately, it is much more common for people with negative comments to feel the need to post complaints in forums and on videos than people that actually enjoyed the content. I can imagine as a content creator, all that constant negativity must wear you down. But, you guys definitely helped bring the scene along.
As for Moletrap, I feel like he received a lot of criticism for saying things about the gamestate or units during his casts (in SC2) that were just plain incorrect. Otherwise I don’t know what there was to complain about with him; you could tell he had passion for the game.
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On May 31 2017 08:11 Vuk_91 wrote:
You're forgetting the best BW caster of all time, Sayle. In terms of importance, he's probably less important than the guys who came before him, like Klazzart, Cholera, Nuke, etc.. But his knowledge of the game was amazing, and he had a period (2011. I think) when he was casting like a maniac, he casted ALL proleague games for a while I think.
yeah, Sayle was the best. His ironic commentary and game knowledge was so good. Hope he returns someday!
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my favorites were klazart and sayle
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On May 31 2017 18:31 duplex__ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2017 08:11 Vuk_91 wrote:
You're forgetting the best BW caster of all time, Sayle. In terms of importance, he's probably less important than the guys who came before him, like Klazzart, Cholera, Nuke, etc.. But his knowledge of the game was amazing, and he had a period (2011. I think) when he was casting like a maniac, he casted ALL proleague games for a while I think. yeah, Sayle was the best. His ironic commentary and game knowledge was so good. Hope he returns someday!
wasn't sayle ranked pretty high on iccup once? B if iirc. he definately outclassed everyone in game knowledge but i also think everyone brought in something special.
what we're missing in the sc community IMO is pimpest plays, highlights, funny progamer moments. these things circulated youtube and inspired a lot of people to invest in learning BW back in the day
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On May 31 2017 19:46 Crimson)S(hadow wrote:
my favorites were klazart and sayle
Hehehe I remember when i beat sayle on stream 
I think part of the reason why I got into competitive brood war was because of these casters... looking back, how else would I have gotten in the scene?
I was a kid going into high school at the time and there was just no way I would have ever gotten into brood war like that... don't downplay your guys' roles Psy... there will always be haters in anything you do.
If it wasn't for you guys getting me into brood war, I would have never gotten into map making because that's where I saw the maps where pros played the game. I studied them religiously as a young kid for some reason, and even now I can recall by memory most KeSPA maps with a good degree of accuracy. I would have never joined BWMN back in 2008, I would have never made those maps that got into the ICCup mappool, I would have never contributed for tournament map packs, and definitely would have not gotten the opportunity to come back from my few years break and submit a map to ASL...
Sometimes all you can do is look back at the legacy you created, directly or indirectly, and know that things are different because of what you did. Whether you knew it or not, you touched people's lives by getting them into this impossible-to-let-go game.
Thnx psyonic_reaver for you and the rest of the caster's efforts. I still remember going to sc2gg before ever looking through TL ( I always thought TL was a weird website lol ), and you also helped me to remember that game between you and cholera on plasma
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United States889 Posts
On May 31 2017 16:31 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:
I'm going out on a limb and pick at an old scab. And maybe others could throw out their two cents.
I will only speak about klaz, diggity, moletrap and myself in this regards because I've never spoken to the other casters about this.
We got a LOT of hate. I mean it was brutal at times here on TL and GG. I could go back and dig up old threads where we were constantly torn apart but it's funny reading more recent threads in the past 2/3 years and people miss them/me and wish we would do more for BW again. The reason we stopped is that the voices yelling NO were louder than the voices yelling YES. We almost NEVER got positive feedback in any meaningful way. We'd get a thumbs up or a "nice cast!" but then pages and pages and pages of hate. That's why Klaz finally made the decision to truly stop casting. Yes, his writing/family was priority but the negativity finally got to him. As it did to us all eventually.
Are people just looking through rose colored glasses here?
All we did when we did what we did. We did for the love of the game and we would stay up night after night learning the game as best we could watching Korean games, talking to pro players, I even started practicing with the pro American players to gain better player insight but none of our passion seemed to matter. If we weren't tasteless/artosis, we were shit and that was that despite the leaps we had made.
In some ways, I feel us YouTube casters brought many, many, MANY people to this game during the 2006-2010 period. None of the TL or GG guys were casting or putting up content. Artosis and Tasteless weren't. If you look through that period we were it for people that couldn't watch the games live or wanted to figure out the stream launchers, fuck even internet and streaming were fucking SHIT back then. Amazing how far it's come in 10/11 years. Nobody ever seems to recognize that it feels.
Does anyone have any insight on that?
Dude, I only got in to BW in the first place because of guys like you. I was just a kid who loved Starcraft and who stumbled upon a couple of videos. I thought it was weird, and too foreign to understand, but when I found English commentary, it helped me understand some and them learn to love it.
It's an unfortunate part of human nature that people who are angry are always going to say stuff and be louder than people being positive. But I wouldn'tve found a passion/become a writer for TL/had hours and hours of fun playing this game without the english casters. You guys got a lot of hate, but that's because jerks are just louder. There were loads of people who appreciated what you all did - I can guarantee it.
I think some of the reason casters get hate is because casting is hard. Casting alone is harder. It's very easy to give no insight and just repeat what you're seeing. Some TL/GG users who knew the game very very well didn't like that. Fact is, it wasn't for them, and they should have known that and just closed their mouths.
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Maybe rose tinted glasses is bang on the money but I have nothing but good memories and respect for all mentioned in this thread. It is a real shame to hear that they got so much hate. I find it hard to believe.
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i thought moletrap retired?
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Bisutopia19327 Posts
On May 31 2017 16:31 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:
I'm going out on a limb and pick at an old scab. And maybe others could throw out their two cents.
I will only speak about klaz, diggity, moletrap and myself in this regards because I've never spoken to the other casters about this.
We got a LOT of hate. I mean it was brutal at times here on TL and GG. I could go back and dig up old threads where we were constantly torn apart but it's funny reading more recent threads in the past 2/3 years and people miss them/me and wish we would do more for BW again. The reason we stopped is that the voices yelling NO were louder than the voices yelling YES. We almost NEVER got positive feedback in any meaningful way. We'd get a thumbs up or a "nice cast!" but then pages and pages and pages of hate. That's why Klaz finally made the decision to truly stop casting. Yes, his writing/family was priority but the negativity finally got to him. As it did to us all eventually.
Are people just looking through rose colored glasses here?
All we did when we did what we did. We did for the love of the game and we would stay up night after night learning the game as best we could watching Korean games, talking to pro players, I even started practicing with the pro American players to gain better player insight but none of our passion seemed to matter. If we weren't tasteless/artosis, we were shit and that was that despite the leaps we had made.
In some ways, I feel us YouTube casters brought many, many, MANY people to this game during the 2006-2010 period. None of the TL or GG guys were casting or putting up content. Artosis and Tasteless weren't. If you look through that period we were it for people that couldn't watch the games live or wanted to figure out the stream launchers, fuck even internet and streaming were fucking SHIT back then. Amazing how far it's come in 10/11 years. Nobody ever seems to recognize that it feels.
Does anyone have any insight on that?
I think what remains is a community of generally nicer people. I'm no top tier caster, but I get positive feedback and PMs all the time when I cast stuff. It's what has inspired me to keep at it for half a decade. There have been many times where I question my commitment and people randomly send me a PM that motivates me back into gear. The people who listen now really do care a lot more and want to encourage everyone instead of tearing them down. I know about all the comments you are referring too and I think those people have simply drifted away or grown up.
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On May 31 2017 19:54 Crimson)S(hadow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2017 18:31 duplex__ wrote:On May 31 2017 08:11 Vuk_91 wrote:
You're forgetting the best BW caster of all time, Sayle. In terms of importance, he's probably less important than the guys who came before him, like Klazzart, Cholera, Nuke, etc.. But his knowledge of the game was amazing, and he had a period (2011. I think) when he was casting like a maniac, he casted ALL proleague games for a while I think. yeah, Sayle was the best. His ironic commentary and game knowledge was so good. Hope he returns someday! wasn't sayle ranked pretty high on iccup once? B if iirc. he definately outclassed everyone in game knowledge but i also think everyone brought in something special. what we're missing in the sc community IMO is pimpest plays, highlights, funny progamer moments. these things circulated youtube and inspired a lot of people to invest in learning BW back in the day
I think he was like a B- player who once hit B, or something like that...But I don't even think that this fact tells the whole story, there are some B players who just have perfect mechanics and overwhelm you with macro. Sayle wasn't one of them, game knowledge was his strong point.
Personally I'm not a fan of highlights, pimpest plays etc., but I do agree that those kinds of things bring people to BW.
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On May 31 2017 16:31 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:
I'm going out on a limb and pick at an old scab. And maybe others could throw out their two cents.
I will only speak about klaz, diggity, moletrap and myself in this regards because I've never spoken to the other casters about this.
We got a LOT of hate. I mean it was brutal at times here on TL and GG. I could go back and dig up old threads where we were constantly torn apart but it's funny reading more recent threads in the past 2/3 years and people miss them/me and wish we would do more for BW again. The reason we stopped is that the voices yelling NO were louder than the voices yelling YES. We almost NEVER got positive feedback in any meaningful way. We'd get a thumbs up or a "nice cast!" but then pages and pages and pages of hate. That's why Klaz finally made the decision to truly stop casting. Yes, his writing/family was priority but the negativity finally got to him. As it did to us all eventually.
Are people just looking through rose colored glasses here?
All we did when we did what we did. We did for the love of the game and we would stay up night after night learning the game as best we could watching Korean games, talking to pro players, I even started practicing with the pro American players to gain better player insight but none of our passion seemed to matter. If we weren't tasteless/artosis, we were shit and that was that despite the leaps we had made.
In some ways, I feel us YouTube casters brought many, many, MANY people to this game during the 2006-2010 period. None of the TL or GG guys were casting or putting up content. Artosis and Tasteless weren't. If you look through that period we were it for people that couldn't watch the games live or wanted to figure out the stream launchers, fuck even internet and streaming were fucking SHIT back then. Amazing how far it's come in 10/11 years. Nobody ever seems to recognize that it feels.
Does anyone have any insight on that?
Hey you guys shouldn't take the negative feedback too seriously. I'm pretty sure for every negative post there are 10 silent people who support you guys. And I'm truly thankful for all the work you guys put into getting people interested in BW. Think it was through klazart that I got into the BW scene and I can't thank him enough!
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I was definitely never as big as any of the guys listed here, but I will admit that I stopped casting because of the negative feedback outweighed the positive. I was also 17 and an idiot and didn't play the game or invest time talking to others like Psyionic is describing, but I can attest to what he is talking about.
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Netherlands4520 Posts
On May 31 2017 16:31 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:
I'm going out on a limb and pick at an old scab. And maybe others could throw out their two cents.
I will only speak about klaz, diggity, moletrap and myself in this regards because I've never spoken to the other casters about this.
We got a LOT of hate. I mean it was brutal at times here on TL and GG. I could go back and dig up old threads where we were constantly torn apart but it's funny reading more recent threads in the past 2/3 years and people miss them/me and wish we would do more for BW again. The reason we stopped is that the voices yelling NO were louder than the voices yelling YES. We almost NEVER got positive feedback in any meaningful way. We'd get a thumbs up or a "nice cast!" but then pages and pages and pages of hate. That's why Klaz finally made the decision to truly stop casting. Yes, his writing/family was priority but the negativity finally got to him. As it did to us all eventually.
Are people just looking through rose colored glasses here?
All we did when we did what we did. We did for the love of the game and we would stay up night after night learning the game as best we could watching Korean games, talking to pro players, I even started practicing with the pro American players to gain better player insight but none of our passion seemed to matter. If we weren't tasteless/artosis, we were shit and that was that despite the leaps we had made.
In some ways, I feel us YouTube casters brought many, many, MANY people to this game during the 2006-2010 period. None of the TL or GG guys were casting or putting up content. Artosis and Tasteless weren't. If you look through that period we were it for people that couldn't watch the games live or wanted to figure out the stream launchers, fuck even internet and streaming were fucking SHIT back then. Amazing how far it's come in 10/11 years. Nobody ever seems to recognize that it feels.
Does anyone have any insight on that?
Always appreciated everything you did in bw back then. <3
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On May 31 2017 23:11 RainmanMP wrote:
I was definitely never as big as any of the guys listed here, but I will admit that I stopped casting because of the negative feedback outweighed the positive. I was also 17 and an idiot and didn't play the game or invest time talking to others like Psyionic is describing, but I can attest to what he is talking about.
Sounds like the negativity directed to you was deserved then, no?
That said, generally speaking, there was a lot of negativity in the BW scene back in the day across the spectrum. I know it drove a ton of volunteers away from various sites including myself (WGT, PGT, ICCup, etc.).
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Well, with SC2 being out, being loved and now starting to get really, really boring - I think there will be at least a few months of big interest in SC:BW content. Also the old generation will at least be happy to get some of the nostalgia back and won't complain as much.
The new kids won't even know about old stuff.
I for one am hoping that you guys will at least do some commemorative content, if not more.
Always enjoyed your stuff!!
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EPT
