If SC2 Proleague becomes a reality, something needs to be done about all the BW and SC2 and foreign SC2 teams - there's just too many. At BW's peak, there were already too many teams, and players were complaining about too many matches in a week, and a marketshare that had stagnated (AFAIK).
The only way to support so many teams is what's done in physical sports - regional teams/conferences where local fans can support their own teams. This is a bit antithetical to the how foreign teams operate (which members spread throughout the country/world). And while Korean teams have team houses, I don't think moving teams out to various regions outside of the Seoul metropolis would be very appealing (in terms of cost and player's wants). But I don't see how else so many teams would work in a Proleague format while retaining sponsorship.
On October 20 2011 06:27 McFeser wrote: I hope I'm not talking out of my ass because I never followed BW and therefore do not have the same amount of respect for it but I think its slow decline should be a bitter sweet thing. I remember what Artosis said on SOTG, that he'd rather it die off immediately. A slow decline would be too painful for him. There is obviously a great level of complexity to BW, something that many BW fans cannot find elsewhere, but I think it is naive to think that SC2 will never reach that stage. Maybe not with the current balance settup but in later installments (HotS). And let's say worst case scenario happens and Kespa throws BW out and puts SC2 in. It won't happen like that - but even the worst case transisition possible would ultimately still be a good thing. Any organization that does not keep up with the times is doomed to fail.
THAT BEING SAID, I personally don't think this is going to inflict BW negatively at all. In fact it might mean people such as myself watch a little BW.
Edit: gave more context to Artosis quote
As one of the more balanced posters I've seen on this topic, I salute you. Although I don't really want to think about bw dying
Also, to be completely honest the main reason I cringe whenever I see any hint of bw/sc2 crossover is I'm afraid I'm going to rage at more "haw haw time to switch bw guys, sc2 is the future" type posts...if people (on both sides, actually) even attempted to talk above ignorance, or tried to figure out how to make both scenes coexist and grow peacefully, then maybe I wouldn't be so hard-set against seeing bw/sc2 news.
I'm a hardcore BW fan, and I despise SC2 (even if I play it nearly every day).
In my honest opinion, BW has nowhere to go but down from here. I agree completely with what Artosis said. BW needs a quick death rather than a slow one. I really would rather pro BW just end rather than see its content slowly dwindle into nothing.
I hope to god BW doesn't go away, but I just don't see it going back up to its peak.
Ironically, if SC2 would end up being failure in Korea BW could actually go up for a little time, BW in Korea (and Korea only)was a phenomenon on a world wide scale, thats a big shoes to fill. Many Koreans will watch SC2 in a way thats BW succesor and it has to be good, but what if not? Will they put big cross on Esports and say "fuck it, K-pop rulez" ? Honestly from my non Korean selfish point of view, that would be a disaster. SC2 has time to mature, BW is yet not dying, we will see in 3-4 years.
*KeSPA is the governing body of the Korean e-Sports, and is in charge of running the Proleague, Brood War's premiere team level competition that has yearly seasons similar to pro sports leagues around the world.
I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand this correctly. By e-Sports you mean Brood War only right? And why do you write e-Sports then?
He's defining KeSPA. He means e-Sports, and he's correct.
How do they govern SC2 if it's Gretech (gom) who run SC2?
I don't see them governing SC2. I see them governing the same BW teams that they always have, except now those teams will have SC2 division. All the other teams that are currently competing in GSL will remain ungoverned. Well, that's my guess at least.
That'd be insanely stupid. Who'd watch an SC2 tournament with no-names in it?
On October 20 2011 06:27 McFeser wrote: I hope I'm not talking out of my ass because I never followed BW and therefore do not have the same amount of respect for it but I think its slow decline should be a bitter sweet thing. I remember what Artosis said on SOTG, that he'd rather it die off immediately. A slow decline would be too painful for him. There is obviously a great level of complexity to BW, something that many BW fans cannot find elsewhere, but I think it is naive to think that SC2 will never reach that stage. Maybe not with the current balance settup but in later installments (HotS). And let's say worst case scenario happens and Kespa throws BW out and puts SC2 in. It won't happen like that - but even the worst case transisition possible would ultimately still be a good thing. Any organization that does not keep up with the times is doomed to fail.
THAT BEING SAID, I personally don't think this is going to inflict BW negatively at all. In fact it might mean people such as myself watch a little BW.
Edit: gave more context to Artosis quote
As one of the more balanced posters I've seen on this topic, I salute you. Although I don't really want to think about bw dying
Also, to be completely honest the main reason I cringe whenever I see any hint of bw/sc2 crossover is I'm afraid I'm going to rage at more "haw haw time to switch bw guys, sc2 is the future" type posts...if people (on both sides, actually) even attempted to talk above ignorance, or tried to figure out how to make both scenes coexist and grow peacefully, then maybe I wouldn't be so hard-set against seeing bw/sc2 news.
I'm a hardcore BW fan, and I despise SC2 (even if I play it nearly every day).
In my honest opinion, BW has nowhere to go but down from here. I agree completely with what Artosis said. BW needs a quick death rather than a slow one. I really would rather pro BW just end rather than see its content slowly dwindle into nothing.
I hope to god BW doesn't go away, but I just don't see it going back up to its peak.
Ironically, if SC2 would end up being failure in Korea BW could actually go up for a little time, BW in Korea (and Korea only)was a phenomenon on a world wide scale, thats a big shoes to fill. Many Koreans will watch SC2 in a way thats BW succesor and it has to be good, but what if not? Will they put big cross on Esports and say "fuck it, K-pop rulez" ? Honestly from my non Korean selfish point of view, that would be a disaster. SC2 has time to mature, BW is yet not dying, we will see in 3-4 years.
I don't like that KeSPA has an incentive for SC2 to fail.
On October 20 2011 07:00 Doso wrote: Tasteless and Artosis casting offical KeSpa SC2 TeamLeague... a man can dream
that is actually my biggest fear
In that case, I hope that whatever KeSPA/OGN does, they will offer an alternative Korean cast for anyone who wants it rather than pulling a GOM and forcing all non-Koreans to watch the English cast by IP-blocking the Korean cast for all non-Koreans.
I actually think KeSPA isn't going to totally dominate the GSL globally due to the GSL developement with stronger ties connecting them with major foreign organizations. Perhaps in Korea is will be big, and over time catch up, but KeSPA is no really presence outside Korea and the very core BW community.
*KeSPA is the governing body of the Korean e-Sports, and is in charge of running the Proleague, Brood War's premiere team level competition that has yearly seasons similar to pro sports leagues around the world.
I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand this correctly. By e-Sports you mean Brood War only right? And why do you write e-Sports then?
He's defining KeSPA. He means e-Sports, and he's correct.
How do they govern SC2 if it's Gretech (gom) who run SC2?
I don't see them governing SC2. I see them governing the same BW teams that they always have, except now those teams will have SC2 division. All the other teams that are currently competing in GSL will remain ungoverned. Well, that's my guess at least.
That'd be insanely stupid. Who'd watch an SC2 tournament with no-names in it?
On October 20 2011 06:27 McFeser wrote: I hope I'm not talking out of my ass because I never followed BW and therefore do not have the same amount of respect for it but I think its slow decline should be a bitter sweet thing. I remember what Artosis said on SOTG, that he'd rather it die off immediately. A slow decline would be too painful for him. There is obviously a great level of complexity to BW, something that many BW fans cannot find elsewhere, but I think it is naive to think that SC2 will never reach that stage. Maybe not with the current balance settup but in later installments (HotS). And let's say worst case scenario happens and Kespa throws BW out and puts SC2 in. It won't happen like that - but even the worst case transisition possible would ultimately still be a good thing. Any organization that does not keep up with the times is doomed to fail.
THAT BEING SAID, I personally don't think this is going to inflict BW negatively at all. In fact it might mean people such as myself watch a little BW.
Edit: gave more context to Artosis quote
As one of the more balanced posters I've seen on this topic, I salute you. Although I don't really want to think about bw dying
Also, to be completely honest the main reason I cringe whenever I see any hint of bw/sc2 crossover is I'm afraid I'm going to rage at more "haw haw time to switch bw guys, sc2 is the future" type posts...if people (on both sides, actually) even attempted to talk above ignorance, or tried to figure out how to make both scenes coexist and grow peacefully, then maybe I wouldn't be so hard-set against seeing bw/sc2 news.
I'm a hardcore BW fan, and I despise SC2 (even if I play it nearly every day).
In my honest opinion, BW has nowhere to go but down from here. I agree completely with what Artosis said. BW needs a quick death rather than a slow one. I really would rather pro BW just end rather than see its content slowly dwindle into nothing.
I hope to god BW doesn't go away, but I just don't see it going back up to its peak.
Ironically, if SC2 would end up being failure in Korea BW could actually go up for a little time, BW in Korea (and Korea only)was a phenomenon on a world wide scale, thats a big shoes to fill. Many Koreans will watch SC2 in a way thats BW succesor and it has to be good, but what if not? Will they put big cross on Esports and say "fuck it, K-pop rulez" ? Honestly from my non Korean selfish point of view, that would be a disaster. SC2 has time to mature, BW is yet not dying, we will see in 3-4 years.
I don't like that KeSPA has an incentive for SC2 to fail.
Not sure why you'd think they would be no-names. Sure, at the start they may be no-names to the SC2 fan-base, but Koreans will know them from the BW B-teams and I'm sure they will recruit some well-known players as well. Contracts don't last forever. It wouldn't surprise me at all if we someone like MVP switched back to his old KeSPA Woonjin Stars team.
This is quite an encouraging step. As a "Starcraft symbiosis advocate" from way back, I look forward to seeing the two games flourish and grow together.
Nevertheless, I'm a little wary about seeing Kespa have too much control over SC2 e-sports. But I suppose, with Blizzard involved as well, they'll be kept in check, and they can certainly bring a lot of benefit to the SC2 scene. And obviously, getting more foreign fans involved in Korean BW would be quite good for the scene.
*KeSPA is the governing body of the Korean e-Sports, and is in charge of running the Proleague, Brood War's premiere team level competition that has yearly seasons similar to pro sports leagues around the world.
I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand this correctly. By e-Sports you mean Brood War only right? And why do you write e-Sports then?
He's defining KeSPA. He means e-Sports, and he's correct.
How do they govern SC2 if it's Gretech (gom) who run SC2?
I don't see them governing SC2. I see them governing the same BW teams that they always have, except now those teams will have SC2 division. All the other teams that are currently competing in GSL will remain ungoverned. Well, that's my guess at least.
That'd be insanely stupid. Who'd watch an SC2 tournament with no-names in it?
On October 20 2011 07:03 bgx wrote:
On October 20 2011 06:41 PH wrote:
On October 20 2011 06:35 jellyfish wrote:
On October 20 2011 06:27 McFeser wrote: I hope I'm not talking out of my ass because I never followed BW and therefore do not have the same amount of respect for it but I think its slow decline should be a bitter sweet thing. I remember what Artosis said on SOTG, that he'd rather it die off immediately. A slow decline would be too painful for him. There is obviously a great level of complexity to BW, something that many BW fans cannot find elsewhere, but I think it is naive to think that SC2 will never reach that stage. Maybe not with the current balance settup but in later installments (HotS). And let's say worst case scenario happens and Kespa throws BW out and puts SC2 in. It won't happen like that - but even the worst case transisition possible would ultimately still be a good thing. Any organization that does not keep up with the times is doomed to fail.
THAT BEING SAID, I personally don't think this is going to inflict BW negatively at all. In fact it might mean people such as myself watch a little BW.
Edit: gave more context to Artosis quote
As one of the more balanced posters I've seen on this topic, I salute you. Although I don't really want to think about bw dying
Also, to be completely honest the main reason I cringe whenever I see any hint of bw/sc2 crossover is I'm afraid I'm going to rage at more "haw haw time to switch bw guys, sc2 is the future" type posts...if people (on both sides, actually) even attempted to talk above ignorance, or tried to figure out how to make both scenes coexist and grow peacefully, then maybe I wouldn't be so hard-set against seeing bw/sc2 news.
I'm a hardcore BW fan, and I despise SC2 (even if I play it nearly every day).
In my honest opinion, BW has nowhere to go but down from here. I agree completely with what Artosis said. BW needs a quick death rather than a slow one. I really would rather pro BW just end rather than see its content slowly dwindle into nothing.
I hope to god BW doesn't go away, but I just don't see it going back up to its peak.
Ironically, if SC2 would end up being failure in Korea BW could actually go up for a little time, BW in Korea (and Korea only)was a phenomenon on a world wide scale, thats a big shoes to fill. Many Koreans will watch SC2 in a way thats BW succesor and it has to be good, but what if not? Will they put big cross on Esports and say "fuck it, K-pop rulez" ? Honestly from my non Korean selfish point of view, that would be a disaster. SC2 has time to mature, BW is yet not dying, we will see in 3-4 years.
I don't like that KeSPA has an incentive for SC2 to fail.
Not sure why you'd think they would be no-names. Sure, at the start they may be no-names to the SC2 fan-base, but Koreans will know them from the BW B-teams and I'm sure they will recruit some well-known players as well. Contracts don't last forever. It wouldn't surprise me at all if we someone like MVP switched back to his old KeSPA Woonjin Stars team.
Unless it's Hyuk, I couldn't honestly care about a mediocre BW player who started playing SC2 2 weeks ago playing another mediocre BW player who started playing SC2 two weeks ago. It undercuts the BW scene to lose all the B-teamers, and it splits the SC2 scene in twain.
On October 20 2011 06:01 Pelopidas wrote: I played SC2 for a while but stopped once I realized that Blizzard was more concerned with the way casuals view the game than the actual game play experience. Now it seems that something I tried to get away from has chased me to my last refuge, and set it on fire. I just want BW to be left alone. Why is it so important that BW players switch to SC2? Why can't you SC2 fans just be happy that you get constant coverage of games from players all over the world?
It really irritates me that Blizzard has managed to astroturf a commercialized imitation of the eSports scene that sprung up spontaneously in Korea. By funding huge prize pools, and by using the name Starcraft, Blizzard managed to have the entire noncompetitive foreigner scene, many B teamers, and washed up pros switch to SC2. In my opinion many fans were duped into feeling like they were participating in something like the early days of Brood War, like they were blazing a trail for an eSports scene in the west. Instead it feels as if Blizzard is using the scene as a gigantic advertisement to sell more copies of SC2, while collecting a large percentage of tournament profits on the side. Blizzard, in attempt to parallel the way they were able to dominate the MMO genre with WoW, has created an RTS with its edges worn off, and have enriched their coffers, while gaining publicity, and recognition, with a competitive scene that attempts to parrot.
To me the game is far too different from Brood War to be its true successor. Even so, I would be willing to accept and tolerate it as long as Brood War was left alone. Now, however, Blizzards tendrils have started to touch something I hold dear, I don't know what to do. It seems I am forced to sit idle while something I enjoy is torn apart in the name of Activision-Blizzard's bottom line.
On October 20 2011 06:01 Pelopidas wrote: I played SC2 for a while but stopped once I realized that Blizzard was more concerned with the way casuals view the game than the actual game play experience. Now it seems that something I tried to get away from has chased me to my last refuge, and set it on fire. I just want BW to be left alone. Why is it so important that BW players switch to SC2? Why can't you SC2 fans just be happy that you get constant coverage of games from players all over the world?
It really irritates me that Blizzard has managed to astroturf a commercialized imitation of the eSports scene that sprung up spontaneously in Korea. By funding huge prize pools, and by using the name Starcraft, Blizzard managed to have the entire noncompetitive foreigner scene, many B teamers, and washed up pros switch to SC2. In my opinion many fans were duped into feeling like they were participating in something like the early days of Brood War, like they were blazing a trail for an eSports scene in the west. Instead it feels as if Blizzard is using the scene as a gigantic advertisement to sell more copies of SC2, while collecting a large percentage of tournament profits on the side. Blizzard, in attempt to parallel the way they were able to dominate the MMO genre with WoW, has created an RTS with its edges worn off, and have enriched their coffers, while gaining publicity, and recognition, with a competitive scene that attempts to parrot.
To me the game is far too different from Brood War to be its true successor. Even so, I would be willing to accept and tolerate it as long as Brood War was left alone. Now, however, Blizzards tendrils have started to touch something I hold dear, I don't know what to do. It seems I am forced to sit idle while something I enjoy is torn apart in the name of Activision-Blizzard's bottom line.
On October 20 2011 03:54 TheGlassface wrote: 14 pages and so many topics and no one gets it.
We BW fans are becoming marginalized at every step. Of course we're going to be in defensive postures.
This website is clearly more focused on SCII than BW The majority of us speak English and the English speaking world is clearly more focused on SCII. Hell, we can't even watch our games in English or read about them in English. Our player roster is being marginalized as more and more B teamers and old Bonjwas go over. In almost every global event, BW is being marginalized if not cut right out. Our forum here is a constant battleground, as we now are about 1/2 of the poster count ...
So...yea, now you're telling me that my PL is "meshing," with SCII? I was more than fine with my game, my PL and my website. I have none of these things now, as they were.
I, of all people, don't want to start the war here but the fact is this is why we get pissy. Every, single, time.
Just try and think from our side next time you want to come in here and post like villageidiot or any of his ilk. We don't care that you like your game, we want you to enjoy it. We just want what once was back or at the very least to stop being squeezed in and nudged over to make room for the new puppy.
So, while you see it is "cooperation," and "sharing," we see it as just another in a long line of unfortunate events that continue to shrink and mold our sport alongside something it is not, taking away fans, airtime and players.
Either way, thank you for the news OP. It's always nice to know what is going on in the scene.
I feel sad after reading your post.
Do not go quiet into that good night Rage, rage against they dying of the light
BW may be running its course at this point, but honestly what a run. Besides, all things can't be bad, we got to watch boxer play BW at IPL
Sounds good but this is actually very very bad. That basically will mean Kespa will be in charge of everything having to do with SC2 in Korea and Kespa is very very strict. Hopefully they will be open minded...But, we haven't seen that in the past.
EPT
really hope it doesn't happen
