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Sounds like Blizzard attempted to remove Kespa from the picture. Bliz's demands sound sort of silly considering the infrastructure KESPA already has in place and ahving a problem with 1yr contracts is understandable.
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Starcraft / Blizzard wont ever die; esports may.
Man up blizzard, you have enough money. Let KeSPA advertise for you.
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It seems to me that both Blizzard and Kespa's opening positions are a bit extreme, kinda like each side is hoping to compromise. And then at least one side is refusing to compromise.
In any case, I think I may have a good solution.
1. Sack Kespa.
2. Give Boxer a bunch of money and tell him to get hiring.
3. Profit.
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Braavos36369 Posts
While your first response may be "yes, ofc Blizzard has CP rights, it made the game!!", looking at it from a copyright perspective (I'm not a copyright lawyer so don't quote me), Blizzard may not have rights to secondary user generated content, even if they specify this in their licensing agreements.
For example, does the person who invented baseball have rights to ticket proceeds of every single baseball game ever played? A few years ago there was a movie about people doing NY Times crossword puzzles, does the NYT have rights to proceeds from that movie because it depicted people playing their game?
Its not a black and white issue at all and will probably be litigated at some point, and if I had to go with my gut, I'd say its pretty close to swinging either way, at least with a US court.
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On May 04 2010 11:14 Hot_Bid wrote:
While your first response may be "yes, ofc Blizzard has CP rights, it made the game!!", looking at it from a copyright perspective (I'm not a copyright lawyer so don't quote me), Blizzard may not have rights to secondary user generated content, even if they specify this in their licensing agreements.
For example, does the person who invented baseball have rights to ticket proceeds of every single baseball game ever played? A few years ago there was a movie about people doing NY Times crossword puzzles, does the NYT have rights to proceeds from that movie because it depicted people playing their game?
Its not a black and white issue at all and will probably be litigated at some point, and if I had to go with my gut, I'd say its pretty close to swinging either way, at least with a US court.
i am almost certain blizzard has the actual intellectual property rights to what kespa does, and will win if there is a litigation.
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France2061 Posts
On May 04 2010 10:53 XsebT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 10:29 Senx wrote:On May 04 2010 10:27 snowdrift86 wrote:On May 04 2010 10:24 Senx wrote:On May 04 2010 10:16 XsebT wrote:On May 04 2010 10:00 Senx wrote:On May 04 2010 09:49 Day[9] wrote:
rot in hell KeSPA. Seriously, I hope KeSPA tanks with the release of SC2. I absolutely despise KeSPA. So you seriously believe a e-sport scene will exist in korea without kespa ( ie the ruleset, teams, players, sponsors, tv channels) ? It makes me sad when people just dismiss kespa as a organization e-sport in SKorea doesn't actually need, beacuse they do..despite their wrong decisions throughout the years. Don't come here and tell me that Blizzard will magicly manage to create a separate SC2 scene to coexist with the current SC:BW scene in SKorea. It's either up to Kespa or we'll have a very small and lackluster SC2 scene or in worst case, no real sc2 pro scene at all. Blizzard won't magically create a separate SC2 scene, we will. Power to the players. Kespa isn't the reason behind the success of SC in Korea - that honor goes to the players, the sponsors and the broadcasting services. Kespa represents the players, the sponsors and the broadcasting services.. It's quite terrible that in every one of the threads discussing KeSPA, maybe half the posters still don't understand what it is. Yea I know isnt it annoying? senx, I believe that comment was intended for you, not me. At least I hope so, coz stating that kespa represents the players (please note that there's a difference between what you say you do and what you actually do) is too much bull crap within one comment.
No, I was agreeing with senx.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On May 04 2010 11:21 o[twist] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 11:14 Hot_Bid wrote:
While your first response may be "yes, ofc Blizzard has CP rights, it made the game!!", looking at it from a copyright perspective (I'm not a copyright lawyer so don't quote me), Blizzard may not have rights to secondary user generated content, even if they specify this in their licensing agreements.
For example, does the person who invented baseball have rights to ticket proceeds of every single baseball game ever played? A few years ago there was a movie about people doing NY Times crossword puzzles, does the NYT have rights to proceeds from that movie because it depicted people playing their game?
Its not a black and white issue at all and will probably be litigated at some point, and if I had to go with my gut, I'd say its pretty close to swinging either way, at least with a US court. i am almost certain blizzard has the actual intellectual property rights to what kespa does, and will win if there is a litigation.
Based on what? I'm almost certain blizzard doesn't have the intellectual property rights to secondary products and will lose if there is litigation.
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On May 04 2010 11:21 o[twist] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 11:14 Hot_Bid wrote:
While your first response may be "yes, ofc Blizzard has CP rights, it made the game!!", looking at it from a copyright perspective (I'm not a copyright lawyer so don't quote me), Blizzard may not have rights to secondary user generated content, even if they specify this in their licensing agreements.
For example, does the person who invented baseball have rights to ticket proceeds of every single baseball game ever played? A few years ago there was a movie about people doing NY Times crossword puzzles, does the NYT have rights to proceeds from that movie because it depicted people playing their game?
Its not a black and white issue at all and will probably be litigated at some point, and if I had to go with my gut, I'd say its pretty close to swinging either way, at least with a US court. i am almost certain blizzard has the actual intellectual property rights to what kespa does, and will win if there is a litigation.
well i am certain they dont, why? they went to legal war over china private wc3 servers and got raped badly in the chinese court. hence removed of lan play in sc2.
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Unlike most TL posters, I haven't been married to SC for the last 10 years so I'm a bit more detached from the Korean pro gaming scene. With that said, I could give a shit less what Kespa does or does not do with SC2 as a result of Blizzard. SC2 is going to have some hardcore players from all the continents. SC1 was a great game but it wasn't popular after a couple years except in one little country. Everybody has their panties in a twist over it because of how pro-gaming is currently handled in Korea/SC1, but SC2 is going to be a whole different animal that is going to succeed in a far bigger market than SC1 ever did.
Sure, all the pros for SC1 tend to be Korean, but that won't translate perfectly in SC2. Many new gamers are going to aim to compete in tournaments and they will come from all over the world.
In regards to the whole Kespa wouldn't exist without starcraft and Kespa is using starcraft to make money... ladifuckingda. Does Blizzard pay royalties on WoW to UO's developers or the DND creators? No, the world doesn't work like that (thank god). Manufacturing plants sure as shit don't pay Ford for the idea to make mass production a chain of individual tasks.
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Kespa is an established provider with the means to continue bringing uninterrupted SC coverage. I think it is a more interesting short term plan to keep that sort of service alive so that the games are fresh in the minds of the players. But who knows?
I've been a Blizzard fanboy my whole life. But seeing SC2's beta development and the direction of WoW's development as of BC, I'm not sure Blizzard has my best interest at heart anymore. We'll see how this plays out.
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Starcraft 2 will be an esport with or without them, you've just listened to the sound of kespa tooting its own horn for too long. How many other esports companies had bw tournaments? More than I can count. Your right that they want it to be an esport in korea, but they arn't about to bow down to anyone and give away something they've worked so hard for. If Sc2 isn't an esport in korea it will still be in 50 other countries. Look at cuba! theyve been isolated for 50 years due to the us led embargo and they have a bw pro scene there! It's the quality of the game not kespa that made BW great. Same will hold true for SC2
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On May 04 2010 11:23 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 11:21 o[twist] wrote:On May 04 2010 11:14 Hot_Bid wrote:
While your first response may be "yes, ofc Blizzard has CP rights, it made the game!!", looking at it from a copyright perspective (I'm not a copyright lawyer so don't quote me), Blizzard may not have rights to secondary user generated content, even if they specify this in their licensing agreements.
For example, does the person who invented baseball have rights to ticket proceeds of every single baseball game ever played? A few years ago there was a movie about people doing NY Times crossword puzzles, does the NYT have rights to proceeds from that movie because it depicted people playing their game?
Its not a black and white issue at all and will probably be litigated at some point, and if I had to go with my gut, I'd say its pretty close to swinging either way, at least with a US court. i am almost certain blizzard has the actual intellectual property rights to what kespa does, and will win if there is a litigation. Based on what? I'm almost certain blizzard doesn't have the intellectual property rights to secondary products and will lose if there is litigation.
it's a very common right called a derivative work
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I think Kespa has no feet to stand on on this. Like it's been said Blizzard is the pimp daddy who gets to say who sleeps with its ho's. They make tons of money off WoW and if they wanted, kill E-Sports rebuild it (they don't even need to look hard for people who well play video games for a living). They have more money, power, rights, and a bigger country to make it in. Now South Korea has been good to pro gaming, but they didn't make it. What made it was video games period. Video games are a monster of its own. The industry is growing and growing and well eventually take over as the number one form of entertainment (it has already out grossed the music and movie industries in the States for the last 3 years). Starcraft well not be the only game that well be played at a pro level. You think that First Person shooter players are not going to want a pro-gaming league? What we are seeing is going to set the standard for laws and etiquette for pro gaming in the future. I hope blizzard wins. Say a game is made (by a small company) that gets accepted into the hearts of pro-gamers and turns into a hit. Out of nowhere, a big company comes in and says "Not only can you NOT stop us from doing what we want with your game; we're going to put it on what we want and do what we want. Try to stop us." That small company can't fight the bigger company and well lose all right to there ideas, work, effort, and love for the industry. So, those who say this is hurting e-sport; e-sports is going to happen. It becomes more of a slowing down then a stopping. As a person from the U.S playing starcraft, I don't much care for the elitist attitude of Kespa. They stomp on the a very good show, just to piss of blizzard. A show that had English speaking commentators. They the one shooting e-sports not blizzard.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On May 04 2010 11:26 o[twist] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 11:23 Kennigit wrote:On May 04 2010 11:21 o[twist] wrote:On May 04 2010 11:14 Hot_Bid wrote:
While your first response may be "yes, ofc Blizzard has CP rights, it made the game!!", looking at it from a copyright perspective (I'm not a copyright lawyer so don't quote me), Blizzard may not have rights to secondary user generated content, even if they specify this in their licensing agreements.
For example, does the person who invented baseball have rights to ticket proceeds of every single baseball game ever played? A few years ago there was a movie about people doing NY Times crossword puzzles, does the NYT have rights to proceeds from that movie because it depicted people playing their game?
Its not a black and white issue at all and will probably be litigated at some point, and if I had to go with my gut, I'd say its pretty close to swinging either way, at least with a US court. i am almost certain blizzard has the actual intellectual property rights to what kespa does, and will win if there is a litigation. Based on what? I'm almost certain blizzard doesn't have the intellectual property rights to secondary products and will lose if there is litigation. it's a very common right called a derivative work
Does that mean blizzard owns TL and TSL too?
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On May 04 2010 11:14 Hot_Bid wrote:
While your first response may be "yes, ofc Blizzard has CP rights, it made the game!!", looking at it from a copyright perspective (I'm not a copyright lawyer so don't quote me), Blizzard may not have rights to secondary user generated content, even if they specify this in their licensing agreements.
For example, does the person who invented baseball have rights to ticket proceeds of every single baseball game ever played? A few years ago there was a movie about people doing NY Times crossword puzzles, does the NYT have rights to proceeds from that movie because it depicted people playing their game?
Its not a black and white issue at all and will probably be litigated at some point, and if I had to go with my gut, I'd say its pretty close to swinging either way, at least with a US court.
This is probably exactly the argument Kespa, and other organizations want to argue. The problem is you are comparing a game thats 150+ years old and a game thats 10+ years old (and one not even out yet). Theres no clear creator to the rules used in MLB, they have evolved probably thousands of times into the rule set MLB uses now (and they add/change many rules a year). There is a clear creator of starcraft1/2, but you could argue that Kespa is making the rules under which their players are playing under. Like MLB the players could leave for another league, but obviously in both situations there is no real choice if you want to make money as a player.
But Kespa isn't running every esports league ever, just in korea. But like the MLB isn't running every baseball league in the world. Other leagues will work out deals with blizzard to set up and run big SC2 tournaments, and Kespa can keep using SC1 if they don't want to work with blizzard.
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On May 04 2010 11:24 DatTheMighty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 11:21 o[twist] wrote:On May 04 2010 11:14 Hot_Bid wrote:
While your first response may be "yes, ofc Blizzard has CP rights, it made the game!!", looking at it from a copyright perspective (I'm not a copyright lawyer so don't quote me), Blizzard may not have rights to secondary user generated content, even if they specify this in their licensing agreements.
For example, does the person who invented baseball have rights to ticket proceeds of every single baseball game ever played? A few years ago there was a movie about people doing NY Times crossword puzzles, does the NYT have rights to proceeds from that movie because it depicted people playing their game?
Its not a black and white issue at all and will probably be litigated at some point, and if I had to go with my gut, I'd say its pretty close to swinging either way, at least with a US court. i am almost certain blizzard has the actual intellectual property rights to what kespa does, and will win if there is a litigation. well i am certain they dont, why? they went to legal war over china private wc3 servers and got raped badly in the chinese court. hence removed of lan play in sc2.
not sure exactly how it works out internationally but relatively sure chinese protection of intellectual property is going to be A LOT thinner than korean protection of intellectual property
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On May 04 2010 11:26 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 11:26 o[twist] wrote:On May 04 2010 11:23 Kennigit wrote:On May 04 2010 11:21 o[twist] wrote:On May 04 2010 11:14 Hot_Bid wrote:
While your first response may be "yes, ofc Blizzard has CP rights, it made the game!!", looking at it from a copyright perspective (I'm not a copyright lawyer so don't quote me), Blizzard may not have rights to secondary user generated content, even if they specify this in their licensing agreements.
For example, does the person who invented baseball have rights to ticket proceeds of every single baseball game ever played? A few years ago there was a movie about people doing NY Times crossword puzzles, does the NYT have rights to proceeds from that movie because it depicted people playing their game?
Its not a black and white issue at all and will probably be litigated at some point, and if I had to go with my gut, I'd say its pretty close to swinging either way, at least with a US court. i am almost certain blizzard has the actual intellectual property rights to what kespa does, and will win if there is a litigation. Based on what? I'm almost certain blizzard doesn't have the intellectual property rights to secondary products and will lose if there is litigation. it's a very common right called a derivative work Does that mean blizzard owns TL and TSL too?
not at all, no
i'm not saying it's black and white (few legal issues are) but i think they would have a pretty strong case. not saying that's good, either
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On May 04 2010 11:27 o[twist] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 11:24 DatTheMighty wrote:On May 04 2010 11:21 o[twist] wrote:On May 04 2010 11:14 Hot_Bid wrote:
While your first response may be "yes, ofc Blizzard has CP rights, it made the game!!", looking at it from a copyright perspective (I'm not a copyright lawyer so don't quote me), Blizzard may not have rights to secondary user generated content, even if they specify this in their licensing agreements.
For example, does the person who invented baseball have rights to ticket proceeds of every single baseball game ever played? A few years ago there was a movie about people doing NY Times crossword puzzles, does the NYT have rights to proceeds from that movie because it depicted people playing their game?
Its not a black and white issue at all and will probably be litigated at some point, and if I had to go with my gut, I'd say its pretty close to swinging either way, at least with a US court. i am almost certain blizzard has the actual intellectual property rights to what kespa does, and will win if there is a litigation. well i am certain they dont, why? they went to legal war over china private wc3 servers and got raped badly in the chinese court. hence removed of lan play in sc2. not sure exactly how it works out internationally but relatively sure chinese protection of intellectual property is going to be A LOT thinner than korean protection of intellectual property
and your basing these on ur years of korean and chinese law study? or you're just randomly assumine chinese are a bunch of pagan hippies? or any relative example case?
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Someone care to explain to me why people hate KESPA so much? Is it just about the time when a player (forget who it was) was disqualified from a proleague match for typing 'ppp'? Obviously there must be more to it..
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On May 04 2010 11:26 Reborn8u wrote:
Starcraft 2 will be an esport with or without them, you've just listened to the sound of kespa tooting its own horn for too long. How many other esports companies had bw tournaments? More than I can count. Your right that they want it to be an esport in korea, but they arn't about to bow down to anyone and give away something they've worked so hard for. If Sc2 isn't an esport in korea it will still be in 50 other countries. Look at cuba! theyve been isolated for 50 years due to the us led embargo and they have a bw pro scene there! It's the quality of the game not kespa that made BW great. Same will hold true for SC2
I like the way you put this and I have to agree with you. It was necessary for some kind of KESPA like organization in korea to run all the tournaments, because progaming exploded, and they did a great job with broodwar. That, however, has absolutely nothing to do with SC2, and SC2 will still be big in korea regardless of the BW scene and kespa.
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Is it just me or does this sound like Blizzard plans to get real active in ESports with SC2?
I mean, only licensing for 1 year, wanting to audit all contract negotiations and other management decisions (including finances)... This sounds like Blizz is getting really involved in esports which i think is kick-ass!!
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EPT
