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On May 04 2010 11:30 DatTheMighty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 11:27 o[twist] wrote:On May 04 2010 11:24 DatTheMighty wrote:On May 04 2010 11:21 o[twist] wrote:On May 04 2010 11:14 Hot_Bid wrote:
While your first response may be "yes, ofc Blizzard has CP rights, it made the game!!", looking at it from a copyright perspective (I'm not a copyright lawyer so don't quote me), Blizzard may not have rights to secondary user generated content, even if they specify this in their licensing agreements.
For example, does the person who invented baseball have rights to ticket proceeds of every single baseball game ever played? A few years ago there was a movie about people doing NY Times crossword puzzles, does the NYT have rights to proceeds from that movie because it depicted people playing their game?
Its not a black and white issue at all and will probably be litigated at some point, and if I had to go with my gut, I'd say its pretty close to swinging either way, at least with a US court. i am almost certain blizzard has the actual intellectual property rights to what kespa does, and will win if there is a litigation. well i am certain they dont, why? they went to legal war over china private wc3 servers and got raped badly in the chinese court. hence removed of lan play in sc2. not sure exactly how it works out internationally but relatively sure chinese protection of intellectual property is going to be A LOT thinner than korean protection of intellectual property and your basing these on ur years of korean and chinese law study? or you're just randomly assumine chinese are a bunch of pagan hippies? or any relative example case?
wow, aggressive much? it's pretty well known that china is a haven for piracy and they, i don't happen to be an expert in korean or chinese law - are you just being an angry net dude or is this an area in which you have some sort of expertise? a simple google search reveals that intellectual property law in china is considered a problem area whereas the derivative works doctrine for example is near-identical to the united states standard in korea, although of course i haven't read the case law - seriously - is this a topic you guys know a lot about or do you just like to jump on people for being pessimistic
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I hope this ends well.
Will kespa take a step back?
Will Blizz compensate?
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I think it's reasonable and within the rights of Blizzard to have a say in what brands and products are marketed alongside their intellectual property. I doubt for example they would want a competitor to one of their games sponsor a tournament.
people are saying the most ridiculous shit =_=....
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all of this copyright legal stuff is irrelevant. Without lan support, blizzard can simply turn off their accounts and deny them the ability to play if they don't follow their wishes or if blizzard feels they aren't respecting their copyright.Can a court force blizzard to allow them access to BNET? No. The pro scene everyone will be following is the bnet2 scene because everyone who owns the game will already have access to that scene. No more of Korea dictating who is the best and who gets to have licenses. There will be pro players from all over the world now competing at top levels, the korean/kespa monopoly is over. Skill will decide who is the best and who competes with the best not kespa. All blizzard has to do is flip a switch and kespa wont have a product anymore. End of story.
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lol sorry guys i've been drinking a little. i didn't realize "secondary products" referred to branding, i can't possibly see how blizzard has the rights to that although maybe there's a wrinkle in the case law there somewhere. carry on as though i never spoke
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Worst case scenario for Blizzard, if they lose everything in the case, they can bribe the US military to pull out of S. Korea. Then KeSPA can negotiate with Kim.
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I see everyone is just assuming sc2 is going to hit it big as an esports. I think some of you guys are having quite a thin notion of what Esports is. I am sure Sc2 will do as well as Wc3 or maybe better but will it be an Esports? Esports to me is year round multiple leagues with thousands of live fans at finals, two sports Channel broadcasting 24/7 (ogn, mbcgame), while some of you think if it has few tournaments here and there it should be called esports.
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I wont really pretend to understand who is right or wrong or whose alligations are true, but I do think that blizzard truly cares about their playerbase, and kespa cares about lining their pockets. Gonna have to side with blizzard on this one.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On May 04 2010 11:41 Agrate1 wrote:
I wont really pretend to understand who is right or wrong or whose alligations are true, but I do think that blizzard truly cares about their playerbase, and kespa cares about lining their pockets. Gonna have to side with blizzard on this one.
Yeah, blizzard doesn't care about the financial prospects of esports. They just waste millions of dollars on legal advice because they love their fans. Get with the picture. business is business.
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On May 04 2010 11:35 o[twist] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 11:30 DatTheMighty wrote:On May 04 2010 11:27 o[twist] wrote:On May 04 2010 11:24 DatTheMighty wrote:On May 04 2010 11:21 o[twist] wrote:On May 04 2010 11:14 Hot_Bid wrote:
While your first response may be "yes, ofc Blizzard has CP rights, it made the game!!", looking at it from a copyright perspective (I'm not a copyright lawyer so don't quote me), Blizzard may not have rights to secondary user generated content, even if they specify this in their licensing agreements.
For example, does the person who invented baseball have rights to ticket proceeds of every single baseball game ever played? A few years ago there was a movie about people doing NY Times crossword puzzles, does the NYT have rights to proceeds from that movie because it depicted people playing their game?
Its not a black and white issue at all and will probably be litigated at some point, and if I had to go with my gut, I'd say its pretty close to swinging either way, at least with a US court. i am almost certain blizzard has the actual intellectual property rights to what kespa does, and will win if there is a litigation. well i am certain they dont, why? they went to legal war over china private wc3 servers and got raped badly in the chinese court. hence removed of lan play in sc2. not sure exactly how it works out internationally but relatively sure chinese protection of intellectual property is going to be A LOT thinner than korean protection of intellectual property and your basing these on ur years of korean and chinese law study? or you're just randomly assumine chinese are a bunch of pagan hippies? or any relative example case? wow, aggressive much? it's pretty well known that china is a haven for piracy and they, i don't happen to be an expert in korean or chinese law - are you just being an angry net dude or is this an area in which you have some sort of expertise? a simple google search reveals that intellectual property law in china is considered a problem area whereas the derivative works doctrine for example is near-identical to the united states standard in korea, although of course i haven't read the case law - seriously - is this a topic you guys know a lot about or do you just like to jump on people for being pessimistic
no bro, you just had no credibility in your previous post. so i wanted to see why you would think korea > china in IP laws. you have to cite some sources or qualifcations to back such a claim.
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On May 04 2010 11:41 DatTheMighty wrote:
I see everyone is just assuming sc2 is going to hit it big as an esports. I think some of you guys are having quite a thin notion of what Esports is. I am sure Sc2 will do as well as Wc3 or maybe better but will it be an Esports? Esports to me is year round multiple leagues with thousands of live fans at finals, two sports Channel broadcasting 24/7 (ogn, mbcgame), while some of you think if it has few tournaments here and there it should be called esports.
see: MLG
has all of the above (they used to have televised tourneys on usa but I think all the swearing was a problem but all of the tourneys are livestreamed on theyre main page now)
Ogre brothers and walshy have made more than 1 million$$ each from mlg
thousands of screaming fans at every event
and guess what, scbeta ladder is already on mlg's sister site gamebattles.com
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I am not entirely sure why people continue to use primarily the "intellectual property" argument in Blizzard's favour when it is a very circumstantial argument, which could be torn down based on the specifics of the laws. In other word something Blizzard itself would unlikely trust to hold up in court. So considering how much Blizzard has put on the line with SCII wouldn't you think their team would have thought up something more solid?
Well I think they have, and it's the specification that all games must be played on Battle.net.
(I seriously hope someone has pointed this out already but the fact that people still think Blizzard isn't in a strong position suggests the point didn't get across)
So in short if corporations, like KeSpa, don't agree to what ever Blizzard wants, well, they and their players can simply be not allowed to play. This is because Blizzard owns the servers so clearly they have the right to not let certain people use them, and based on the terms of usage all multiplayer games must be played on their servers.
In conclusion Blizzard made SCII only playable over Battle.net so that they don't have to rely on the "intellectual property" argument when fighting for control over their product. In fact if e-sports were to start up and Blizzard didn't like how things were going they could theoretically shut down all their servers and no one could play SCII multiplayer without violating the terms of usage.
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i'm a bit stunned that people think blizzard overseeing/authorizing kespa's decisions would be a bad thing. do you really expect them to mismanage it anymore than it already is? if anything, i'd think blizzard/activision would be able to pull in some more sponsors for ESPORTS.
kespa's statement just reads like Victimization 101. fuck 'em.
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COPYRIGHT LAWS ARE IRRELEVANT! If blizzard feels they are being infringed on by kespa they just turn off their access to BNET (ipbans anyone) no need to waste time and money on courts, then Kespa no longer has a product
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On May 04 2010 11:46 DatTheMighty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 11:35 o[twist] wrote:On May 04 2010 11:30 DatTheMighty wrote:On May 04 2010 11:27 o[twist] wrote:On May 04 2010 11:24 DatTheMighty wrote:On May 04 2010 11:21 o[twist] wrote:On May 04 2010 11:14 Hot_Bid wrote:
While your first response may be "yes, ofc Blizzard has CP rights, it made the game!!", looking at it from a copyright perspective (I'm not a copyright lawyer so don't quote me), Blizzard may not have rights to secondary user generated content, even if they specify this in their licensing agreements.
For example, does the person who invented baseball have rights to ticket proceeds of every single baseball game ever played? A few years ago there was a movie about people doing NY Times crossword puzzles, does the NYT have rights to proceeds from that movie because it depicted people playing their game?
Its not a black and white issue at all and will probably be litigated at some point, and if I had to go with my gut, I'd say its pretty close to swinging either way, at least with a US court. i am almost certain blizzard has the actual intellectual property rights to what kespa does, and will win if there is a litigation. well i am certain they dont, why? they went to legal war over china private wc3 servers and got raped badly in the chinese court. hence removed of lan play in sc2. not sure exactly how it works out internationally but relatively sure chinese protection of intellectual property is going to be A LOT thinner than korean protection of intellectual property and your basing these on ur years of korean and chinese law study? or you're just randomly assumine chinese are a bunch of pagan hippies? or any relative example case? wow, aggressive much? it's pretty well known that china is a haven for piracy and they, i don't happen to be an expert in korean or chinese law - are you just being an angry net dude or is this an area in which you have some sort of expertise? a simple google search reveals that intellectual property law in china is considered a problem area whereas the derivative works doctrine for example is near-identical to the united states standard in korea, although of course i haven't read the case law - seriously - is this a topic you guys know a lot about or do you just like to jump on people for being pessimistic no bro, you just had no credibility in your previous post. so i wanted to see why you would think korea > china in IP laws. you have to cite some sources or qualifcations to back such a claim.
i'm not going to cite my qualifications; this is an anonymous board. it's pretty conventional wisdom in copyright circles that china is some sort of a problem; i know less about korea, but i'm reading stuff online now, and if it's true about korea as well, i'd love to see something from you. i'm happy to hear what your qualifications are and engage in some sort of productive dialogue, but if you're not going to present any, i'm happy to simply provoke your anger by stating what i've learned from experts in the field.
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On May 04 2010 11:46 Reborn8u wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 11:41 DatTheMighty wrote:
I see everyone is just assuming sc2 is going to hit it big as an esports. I think some of you guys are having quite a thin notion of what Esports is. I am sure Sc2 will do as well as Wc3 or maybe better but will it be an Esports? Esports to me is year round multiple leagues with thousands of live fans at finals, two sports Channel broadcasting 24/7 (ogn, mbcgame), while some of you think if it has few tournaments here and there it should be called esports. see: MLG has all of the above (they used to have televised tourneys on usa but I think all the swearing was a problem but all of the tourneys are livestreamed on theyre main page now) Ogre brothers and walshy have made more than 1 million$$ each from mlg thousands of screaming fans at every event and guess what, scbeta ladder is already on mlg's sister site gamebattles.com
The only true esports is sc korea bro. the rest is just petty stuff in comparison.
i am sure moon (wc3 player) makes more than alot top sc players but that doenst make wc3 an esports. its like you just ignored my post yet quote it. and "used to have televies tourneys" isnt too convincing to your argument either.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 04 2010 11:38 Reborn8u wrote:
all of this copyright legal stuff is irrelevant. Without lan support, blizzard can simply turn off their accounts and deny them the ability to play if they don't follow their wishes or if blizzard feels they aren't respecting their copyright.Can a court force blizzard to allow them access to BNET? No. The pro scene everyone will be following is the bnet2 scene because everyone who owns the game will already have access to that scene. No more of Korea dictating who is the best and who gets to have licenses. There will be pro players from all over the world now competing at top levels, the korean/kespa monopoly is over. Skill will decide who is the best and who competes with the best not kespa. All blizzard has to do is flip a switch and kespa wont have a product anymore. End of story.
This has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether there are professional players in other places than Korea. That is entirely up to the rest of the world -_-
I don't get how you could possibly think that Blizzard having this level of control is good - they are a great company but I don't want ANYONE to have that kind of control over the esports scene, it just isn't healthy.
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On May 04 2010 11:43 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 11:41 Agrate1 wrote:
I wont really pretend to understand who is right or wrong or whose alligations are true, but I do think that blizzard truly cares about their playerbase, and kespa cares about lining their pockets. Gonna have to side with blizzard on this one. Yeah, blizzard doesn't care about the financial prospects of esports. They just waste millions of dollars on legal advice because they love their fans. Get with the picture. business is business.
oh my god, we got a serious buisness man here..
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Baltimore, USA22259 Posts
On May 04 2010 09:36 Mortality wrote:
The problem is this:
For about the past decade, Blizzard has put very little resources into Starcraft. They have fundamentally left the game to the community. KeSPA became the leading figure in the community and assumed the power it was left with in the vacuum that was left by Blizzard essentially shrugging its shoulders and saying "Starcraft is a completed game."
So KeSPA got more and more powerful as the teams realized they needed some kind of unifying body. That's not to say that KeSPA is an entirely honest organization, but that they are fundamentally more of a necessity for e-sports to function than most TL.netters give credit to. TLnet has a fundamentally negative view of KeSPA. We think of GOM being canceled, of Flash's game being forfeited, of players being disqualified for saying "pp" instead of "ppp." But the reality is that e-sports functions much more smoothly and with much less corruption with them in power than it used to before.
But now Blizzard has their new hot tamale on the runway and realizes it's missing it on a big piece of pie. But KeSPA's thinking "this is our pie."
This post needs more love. 
I'm an absolute Blizzard fanboy, and I dislike KeSPA as much as the rest of you for the retarded moves over the years, but I'm absolutely in favor of whatever keeps the ESPORTS train going. And IMO that happens to be with KeSPA staying around. Yes, another company could very easily come in, but how many years before they stabalize and have an operation as smooth as KeSPA's? What will the scene/community look like by then? Will the star players really stick around to see if the corporate men can work things out?
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EPT
