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Why do people think this is just about the money? Do you understand how much cold hard cash World of Warcraft produces??
No, this is about Blizzard protecting their game and protecting their image. if KeSPA decides to allow a team to be named after a political organization, or a strip club, or a business with ties to terrorism this will look bad on Blizzard. If KeSPA cooks the books and turns in a huge scandal, what do you think the headline will be? Starcraft Scandal. That's HUGE bad PR. It is their game. Its their 12 years of hard work. (or at least hard thinking for the first 9). Blizzard has every right to control every aspect of the scene that can hurt their image.
Everything else on the negotiating table is just fluff compared to this. Money is nice, but its a drop in the bucket compared to controlling the PR the E-sport creates.
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1st of all kespa can't censor starcraft, if they tried they'd need a damn good reason other than "Blizzard won't let us use their product" South korea would have a revolt. lmao for you even suggesting that.
2nd You know who'll pay the players? Big companies who want their names plastered all over TV and the internet at a very reasonable price. I mean starcraft vods are almost viral in nature in how the proliferate across the internet whenever a good one is released!
Everyone thinking that kespa or korea are the end all say all to starcraft are retarded, they've been huge no denying that. but esports and pro-gaming are bigger than any one organization or country! SC2 is going to be the biggest game of all time, if kespa wants the privilege of profiting from it I suggest they wake up and realize they don't own any part of it and have to take whatever terms Blizzard offers. Or try to offer a mutually beneficial agreement such as okay blizzard we will give you a position on our board, allow you access to our records and respect you as the source of all of our paychecks in return you allow us to broadcast your game, make a ton of money from it and put our vods plastered with our sponsors names on Bnet.
Furthermore, I'm tired of people acting like the pro gamers make up kespa. I feel that many of these pro gamers get used in korea and when their skills fade they get tossed to the wind. Do you think these kids have a pension plan? They spend the prime of their lives 14 hours a day serving kespa, instead of going to school, finding love, starting families? You think the many kids who've gone through all this and never reached the top benefited as much as kespa? Do you really think the pro gamers get any say in what kespa does? Of all the videos I've seen it's very clear that the coaches and management own those kids and dictate their lives, if they don't obey they get thrown in the trash. Why else would you need a license to be a pro gamer? It's all about power control and profit! They eat when their told, sleep when their told, and game the rest of the time. Those gamers all talk about how their relationships with their friends and families suffer. Forget about getting laid, no time for that. I have a lot of respect for the actual gamers but kespa uses them, they are not kespa. Boxer has been saying for years how he wanted to form a players association so that they could have some say in things and have some rights, do you think they'll ever let that happen? Read Boxers book "crazy as me" it's very insightful. Fuck Kespa they stand on the shoulders of giants and proclaim their own greatness.
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I think Blizzard has every right to make the requests, although it tones like demands, they have.
Blizzard is a big boy (NASDAQ:ATVI) now and is held accountable as such; I don't know if Kespa's revenue compares...
I wish that they could perhaps recognize what Blizzard is trying to do, maybe they are trying to get their hands deep enough to launch e-sports elsewhere.
I've always wondered what other elements were preventing Blizzard from just going in and buying up all the players...Surely this is a naive thought for some reason...
I dunno, hope it generates investor's growth.
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I'm interested in a more international scene, rather than just having Kespa and its focus on Korea. Hopefully if Kespa isn't involved we won't end up with one solid hub and instead have a complete international scene.
That's what I'm hoping comes out of all of this, anyway.
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I really don't see what isn't 'Black and white' about this issue. Blizzard owns the game, Kespa owns the progaming teams, gets the broadcasting agreements and sponsors. Sure, Kespa has a lot of things going for it, but without the game, they have nothing. They're dealing with a monopoly- only Blizzard can give them SC2. Kespa needs Blizzard, Blizzard doesn't need Kespa- one side has a huge negotiating advantage over the other.
I suppose it sucks for Kespa that Blizzard is driving such a hard deal with them, but really, it's not like they have a say in the issue- it's Blizzard's way or the highway, and Kespa seems to have chosen the latter.
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On May 04 2010 10:39 Zato-1 wrote:
I suppose it sucks for Kespa that Blizzard is driving such a hard deal with them, but really, it's not like they have a say in the issue- it's Blizzard's way or the highway, and Kespa seems to have chosen the latter.
That's the point though, its not a hard deal. Its incredibly reasonable for blizzard to want to own any aspect of the system that can be used to harm their image.
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On May 04 2010 10:39 Zato-1 wrote:
I really don't see what isn't 'Black and white' about this issue. Blizzard owns the game, Kespa owns the progaming teams, gets the broadcasting agreements and sponsors. Sure, Kespa has a lot of things going for it, but without the game, they have nothing. They're dealing with a monopoly- only Blizzard can give them SC2. Kespa needs Blizzard, Blizzard doesn't need Kespa- one side has a huge negotiating advantage over the other.
I suppose it sucks for Kespa that Blizzard is driving such a hard deal with them, but really, it's not like they have a say in the issue- it's Blizzard's way or the highway, and Kespa seems to have chosen the latter.
I agree with this.
Can't just take someone's product, make profit off it, and claim the advertising you're proving is enough compensation.
I think everyone here agrees that Blizzard will not need the slightest of help to advertise Starcraft 2.
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On May 04 2010 10:39 Zato-1 wrote:
I really don't see what isn't 'Black and white' about this issue. Blizzard owns the game, Kespa owns the progaming teams, gets the broadcasting agreements and sponsors. Sure, Kespa has a lot of things going for it, but without the game, they have nothing. They're dealing with a monopoly- only Blizzard can give them SC2. Kespa needs Blizzard, Blizzard doesn't need Kespa- one side has a huge negotiating advantage over the other.
I suppose it sucks for Kespa that Blizzard is driving such a hard deal with them, but really, it's not like they have a say in the issue- it's Blizzard's way or the highway, and Kespa seems to have chosen the latter.
I think the whole point of the "black and white" comment is that it may very well in fact be KESPAS way or the highway. If Blizzard is shown to not have any rights to stop KESPA from profitting off of Starcraft or even Starcraft 2, there is nothing Blizzard can do about it. I'm not trying to take any sides here, but its very possible that korean law may not recognize blizzard's rights as able to prevent Kespa from using these games.
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Blizzard E-Sports department is TERRIBLE. I used to be big into WoW ESports and I know on SEVERAL occasions, they have hurt tournaments more than help. On one occasion they actually shut down the server while a big tournament was underway. Another tournament they didn't give them a updated UI, so casters couldn't cast the matches.
Blizzard controlling esports... DO NOT WANT
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On May 04 2010 10:45 Disastorm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 10:39 Zato-1 wrote:
I really don't see what isn't 'Black and white' about this issue. Blizzard owns the game, Kespa owns the progaming teams, gets the broadcasting agreements and sponsors. Sure, Kespa has a lot of things going for it, but without the game, they have nothing. They're dealing with a monopoly- only Blizzard can give them SC2. Kespa needs Blizzard, Blizzard doesn't need Kespa- one side has a huge negotiating advantage over the other.
I suppose it sucks for Kespa that Blizzard is driving such a hard deal with them, but really, it's not like they have a say in the issue- it's Blizzard's way or the highway, and Kespa seems to have chosen the latter. I think the whole point of the "black and white" comment is that it may very well in fact be KESPAS way or the highway. If Blizzard is shown to not have any rights to stop KESPA from profitting off of Starcraft or even Starcraft 2, there is nothing Blizzard can do about it. I'm not trying to take any sides here, but its very possible that korean law may not recognize blizzard's rights as able to prevent Kespa from using these games.
No, that's not the way it works. If Kespa is making money out of their SC1 pro-scene without giving a dime to Blizzard for it, it's only because Blizzard's only option is to shut them down, and wouldn't that be a great PR stunt?
Kespa basically spit in Blizzard's face as far as the SC1 intellectual property rights are concerned, and now that's coming back to bite them in the ass because Blizzard won't accept anything less than total control over a possible Korean SC2 pro-scene managed by Kespa.
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I don't see what the big argument here is about. Its two big companies fighting over money, ideals, and hopes. Regardless of what you think of Kespa they are running smooth, and *huge* esport leagues in their country. But some of you have posted saying they are the only example of a successful esports operation, and thats just flat out false. Some examples of other popular and successful esport operations are 1) Major League Gaming (MLG) 2) Electronic Sports League (ESL). MLG itself is pretty massive, and very successful, they have 16 paid pro teams on their Halo tour, and the top players are paid a ton of money, some of them making 50k+ a year. As proof of that claim:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsquared
Tsquared makes anywhere between 120-200k a year from endorsements and prize money on the MLG tour. Not only is MLG hugely successful, they have switched their Halo game from halo 2 to halo 3, and will probably move again to the new Halo game after its been out for a while. As I remember seeing Boxer himself say in an interview "Pro-gamers should be a pro in all games, not just one." It shouldn't be a bad thing that players have to adapt to a new game, the Pro's should be able to do it better and faster than others anyway.
If Kespa just wants to use SC1 for the rest of time then so be it, blizzard has clearly set out on SC2 with being able to control how tournaments and leagues will use their product. They have probably done more to limit it just because of actions by Kespa. There will be plenty of other organizations that run SC2 tournaments around the world, SK isn't the whole gaming world they may have the highest skilled starcraft players but it can easily change if another region gets serious leagues and tournaments set up for SC2. I'd like to see the koreans play some halo against the best american players  .
Also as for some of Blizzard demands (according to kespa), I doubt they seriously demanded all of that. At best they did fully expecting to back away from some in a compromise to try and get kespa to agree to more, thats how negotiating works.
On May 04 2010 10:47 Huko wrote:
Blizzard E-Sports department is TERRIBLE. I used to be big into WoW ESports and I know on SEVERAL occasions, they have hurt tournaments more than help. On one occasion they actually shut down the server while a big tournament was underway. Another tournament they didn't give them a updated UI, so casters couldn't cast the matches.
Blizzard controlling esports... DO NOT WANT
I've seen a lot of people post something similar to this, I have also played wow since it came out. The simple fact of the matter is WoW was never intended to be an esport. They put in arenas and scrambled to add support for tournaments because there was demand for it. They have been scrambling since. The biggest problem is WoW makes most of its 'money' because people play it to kill monsters and get loot. They simply support arenas because a percentage of people want it, but its has never been the focus. The massive patches they do for Monster killing reasons sometimes mess with arenas and tournaments. This is simply not true for Starcraft 2, and I don't think there will be nearly as many problems. For one spectator functionality is built into the game from the start (like any other RTS) they still don't have true spectator support in WoW (simply not enough demand) so blizzard makes an addon for tournaments to be able to spectator with (and its buggy). On top of that blizzard knows Starcraft 2 can turn into a true massive esport, and they don't think that for WoW, wow changes too often and theres too many other variables.
-sorry for the rant
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On May 04 2010 10:29 Senx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 10:27 snowdrift86 wrote:On May 04 2010 10:24 Senx wrote:On May 04 2010 10:16 XsebT wrote:On May 04 2010 10:00 Senx wrote:On May 04 2010 09:49 Day[9] wrote:
rot in hell KeSPA. Seriously, I hope KeSPA tanks with the release of SC2. I absolutely despise KeSPA. So you seriously believe a e-sport scene will exist in korea without kespa ( ie the ruleset, teams, players, sponsors, tv channels) ? It makes me sad when people just dismiss kespa as a organization e-sport in SKorea doesn't actually need, beacuse they do..despite their wrong decisions throughout the years. Don't come here and tell me that Blizzard will magicly manage to create a separate SC2 scene to coexist with the current SC:BW scene in SKorea. It's either up to Kespa or we'll have a very small and lackluster SC2 scene or in worst case, no real sc2 pro scene at all. Blizzard won't magically create a separate SC2 scene, we will. Power to the players. Kespa isn't the reason behind the success of SC in Korea - that honor goes to the players, the sponsors and the broadcasting services. Kespa represents the players, the sponsors and the broadcasting services.. It's quite terrible that in every one of the threads discussing KeSPA, maybe half the posters still don't understand what it is. Yea I know isnt it annoying?
senx, I believe that comment was intended for you, not me. At least I hope so, coz stating that kespa represents the players (please note that there's a difference between what you say you do and what you actually do) is too much bull crap within one comment.
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I am not a lawyer yet and don't specialize in copyright per se, but I was wondering anyone with knowledge would elaborate on whether this could be taken before WIPO or any other international court and whether they could arbitrate or rule on the issue if Blizzard decides to bring a cause of action. South Korea is a member of the WTO and also bound by TRIPS, although I am not an expert on TRIPS shouldn't this be common ground to find resolution to the dispute.
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On May 04 2010 10:45 Disastorm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 10:39 Zato-1 wrote:
I really don't see what isn't 'Black and white' about this issue. Blizzard owns the game, Kespa owns the progaming teams, gets the broadcasting agreements and sponsors. Sure, Kespa has a lot of things going for it, but without the game, they have nothing. They're dealing with a monopoly- only Blizzard can give them SC2. Kespa needs Blizzard, Blizzard doesn't need Kespa- one side has a huge negotiating advantage over the other.
I suppose it sucks for Kespa that Blizzard is driving such a hard deal with them, but really, it's not like they have a say in the issue- it's Blizzard's way or the highway, and Kespa seems to have chosen the latter. I think the whole point of the "black and white" comment is that it may very well in fact be KESPAS way or the highway. If Blizzard is shown to not have any rights to stop KESPA from profitting off of Starcraft or even Starcraft 2, there is nothing Blizzard can do about it. I'm not trying to take any sides here, but its very possible that korean law may not recognize blizzard's rights as able to prevent Kespa from using these games.
While I am no copyright lawyer so I can't say what goes and does not go in Korea copyright wise but it seems almost self explanatory that Blizzard should have these rights as why would they even push this line if they knew that they could not back it up legally? Second of all I really don't see why Blizzard would agree to release a game in a country where they cannot protect their IP rights and even if this is true for starcraft won't you think that Blizzard will make sure that they have all the legal rights to protect starcraft 2 before they release it? And if South Korean law/government refuse to acknowledge this then the game will simply not be released in South Korea at all.
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On May 04 2010 10:53 XsebT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 10:29 Senx wrote:On May 04 2010 10:27 snowdrift86 wrote:On May 04 2010 10:24 Senx wrote:On May 04 2010 10:16 XsebT wrote:On May 04 2010 10:00 Senx wrote:On May 04 2010 09:49 Day[9] wrote:
rot in hell KeSPA. Seriously, I hope KeSPA tanks with the release of SC2. I absolutely despise KeSPA. So you seriously believe a e-sport scene will exist in korea without kespa ( ie the ruleset, teams, players, sponsors, tv channels) ? It makes me sad when people just dismiss kespa as a organization e-sport in SKorea doesn't actually need, beacuse they do..despite their wrong decisions throughout the years. Don't come here and tell me that Blizzard will magicly manage to create a separate SC2 scene to coexist with the current SC:BW scene in SKorea. It's either up to Kespa or we'll have a very small and lackluster SC2 scene or in worst case, no real sc2 pro scene at all. Blizzard won't magically create a separate SC2 scene, we will. Power to the players. Kespa isn't the reason behind the success of SC in Korea - that honor goes to the players, the sponsors and the broadcasting services. Kespa represents the players, the sponsors and the broadcasting services.. It's quite terrible that in every one of the threads discussing KeSPA, maybe half the posters still don't understand what it is. Yea I know isnt it annoying? senx, I believe that comment was intended for you, not me. At least I hope so, coz stating that kespa represents the players is too much bull crap within one comment.
Each team have representatives in kespa, badly phrased by me i suppose.
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Well being only a watcher for SC (I dont play the game even though I play another RTS), I think first of all SCII has to take over SC for the casual viewer and right now is far far away of that goal, I just enjoy so much korean pro league but i got bored as hell watching SCII tournaments streams, secondly you can dismissed the power of being backing by governments but you will be really wrong, and Kespa has that backup, The problem for Blizzard is that only one game in the world is really an e-sport and It is SC, so they are not sure about the future of SCII as an e-sport and the only way to develope that (minimizing risks) is in Korea, or you guys just pretend to develop e-sports without Korea, let me say dreaming is free.
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the movie Baseketball gogo
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Perhaps Blizzards response says it all, we don't need you, we won't negotiate with you for what is already ours, it's our copyright. You'll abide by our wishes on how our game is reproduced, broadcast, and profited from or you won't have anything to do with our game. Blizzards use of Bnet2 to maintain control is absolute, it shows you they have every ability to control their own products future. Kespa can whine all they want but they can't do anything. Blizzard can simply say "you don't respect our copyright, no bnet thus no starcraft for you!"
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ohh the problems that arise when you mix an American game company w/ a Korean E-Sports Progaming Association =\
as much as i want to take Blizzard's side on this, KeSPA does go by a different set of laws than Americans, so i'll just have to wait for bliazzard's response before i come to any conclusions.
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On May 04 2010 11:06 Reborn8u wrote:
Perhaps Blizzards response says it all, we don't need you, we won't negotiate with you for what is already ours, it's our copyright. You'll abide by our wishes on how our game is reproduced, broadcast, and profited from or you won't have anything to do with our game. Blizzards use of Bnet2 to maintain control is absolute, it shows you they have every ability to control their own products future. Kespa can whine all they want but they can't do anything. Blizzard can simply say "you don't respect our copyright, no bnet thus no starcraft for you!"
Yeah but that would be lying from Blizzards part, see what the korean e-sport scene did to Broodwar. They need and want SC2 to be an esport success in korea wether they want to admit that or not.
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EPT
