Please don't edit my post, other mods. I'll update it if I think there's any new info that I think is worth posting.
Official KeSPA Statement, English version Kespa e-mailed various foreign e-sports sites their official English version of their statement. Here it is.
KeSPA & 12 Pro Game Teams Express Regret at Blizzard’s one-way interview saying final split with KeSPA KeSPA tries to resume negotiations for e-Sports fans
Korea e-Sports Association (President Cho, Ki Haeng, www.e-sports.or.kr) said “Although, KeSPA has negotiated with Blizzard sincerely and faithfully for last three years, U.S.-based game developer Blizzard confirmed final split with KeSPA through a media interview without any prior notice. We expressed our deep regret to that.” Blizzard CEO Mike Morhaime told a Korean media on April 23 in its headquarters in Irvine, California, U.S. that IP rights negotiations with KeSPA finally reached an impasse, so the company is looking for a new partner”.
Choi, Won-Je, the Secretary-general of KeSPA, told “Because Blizzard had asked NDA (Non-disclosure agreement) on the negotiations, we didn’t comment on this matter to keep faith”. “However, Blizzard said it seized the negotiations one-sidedly through interview and it significantly distorted the truth about the reason of split. That’s the reason to indicate our stance,” added the Secretary-general.
▶ All pro game teams including Broadcasters agree to take joint action All board members of KeSPA including Ongame Network and MBC Game reached an agreement to set the KeSPA as a contact point to negotiate and take joint action against Blizzard’s issue as well. KeSPA and pro game teams express their stance on this issue like below.
▶ Controversial on accepted range of original IP rights in e-Sports e-Sports is a kind of future-oriented industry dealing with game. It can be considered that e-Sports is located between ‘Game industry’ and ‘Sports Entertainment’. It is not only a place for satisfying customers and generating revenue for game developers, but a place of PR and Marketing for enterprises.
It needs a mutual cooperation among game developers, e-Sports organizations and associations when a game to be developed as an e-Sports title because of the characteristic of e-Sports above. However, if game industries assert their rights to maximize the pursuit of profits after their games become core e-Sports title, it can be serious obstacles for e-Sports to take roots as future-oriented entertainment industry.
KeSPA has expressed its position of being willing to pay for a rational level of usage fee and appeal its support of marketing and promotion for product line-up of Blizzard with continuous investment such as sharing all contents which belong to KeSPA like pro gamers, broadcasting and sponsorship.
However, Blizzard has asserted not the right as a copyright but unreasonable demands as following.
1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year 2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan 3. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement 4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos 5. Right to audit KeSPA
Through 3-year negotiations, KeSPA requested Blizzard to withdraw or change some unacceptable conditions to protect the rights and interests of professional gamers, teams and e-Sports fans. Even KeSPA suggested positive cooperation including marketing supports etc, Blizzard has stuck to their principle, not to resume the negotiation, till the KeSPA accept all conditions. But recently, Blizzard distorted the truth of breakdown, claiming KeSPA didn’t admit Blizzard’s IP rights request without unveiling its excessive demand conditions.
▶ The IP rights negotiation process between KeSPA and Blizzard In Feb, 2007, Blizzard sent ‘official document to forbid Starcraft broadcasting contract’ to KeSPA through its law firm. Then after, KeSPA has negotiated with Blizzard about all the conditions including broadcasting rights. Actually, during 3 years, KeSPA met Blizzard just few times and Blizzard postponed or resumed the negotiations one-sidedly by reason of launch schedule of Starcraft2 . On June, 2009, KeSPA and Blizzard resumed the negotiation before the releasing Starcraft2, but Blizzard seized it again unilaterally. Then after, KeSPA requested to resume the negotiations and meet Mike Morhaime directly but Blizzard kept the silent regarding and urged to accept the conditions.
▶ KeSPA tries to resume negotiations to protect right to see of e-Sports fans KeSPA said there still remain many problems on negotiations with Blizzard, it will readily resume negotiations again at any time to protect right to see of e-Sports fans and continue its development with a broad view. KeSPA already sent an official document to CEO Mike Morhaime to request of resume negotiations. KeSPA and all pro game teams plan to hold joint press conference sometime soon if it needed. Fin.
Here is my initial translation of the Korean document.
A few weeks ago, Mike Morhaime dropped a bomb during a Yonhap News interview announcing that Blizzard would cease negotiating with KeSPA as an E-Sports partner in Korea. On may 3rd, KeSPA hit back with their response by releasing their official statement to various Korean media outlets.
A united response, from the broadcasters and the pro-gaming teams. All of the companies on KeSPA’s board of directors recognize KeSPA as their sole representative, and have agreed to act together in the negotiations with Blizzard regarding intellectual property rights. The stance of the association and the pro-game teams on the breakdown in negotiations with Blizzard is as follows.
How far does the creator’s copyright extend in E-sports? E-sports is a newly emerging sports industry based around video games, and is a gaming business as well as a sports-entertainment business that provides game developers an opportunity to increase revenue and customer satisfaction, and provides sponsors the opportunity to promote and market their products. Taking these features into consideration, if a game is to become a popular E-sports competition, the game developer and the E-sports organization must have a flexible relationship. If a game achieves success as an iconic E-sports competition (note: KeSPA does not name Starcraft specifically), and the developer pursues profits by declaring that their copyright is valid in the sports industry as well, then that is a large obstacle for E-sports’ growth and establishment as a future sports-entertainment industry.
Despite this, the association has attempted to preserve the fans’ rights as spectators by recognizing Blizzard’s copyright from the very beginning of the negotiations. The association promised Blizzard the continued marketing and promotional support of their products through the use of all our resources including players, teams and broadcasting, and constant investment including the obtainment of sponsorships, as well as expressing an interest in paying a reasonable usage fee for their products. However, Blizzard would have limited the usage period of a game to only one year (note: I have no idea what the heck this means), which would make it difficult to run a stable E-sports league. In addition, Blizzard requests that all aspects of league management would have be authorized by them beforehand, including the acquiring of sponsorships, marketing planning and broadcast planning. Furthermore, Blizzard made other unreasonable requests beyond the rights of the copyright holder, such as royalties and sub-licensing fees on sponsorships and broadcasting fees, the right to audit KeSPA’s finances, as well as ownership of secondary content created through our unique resources in the teams, players, and broadcasting expertise.
Until now, the association has requested that Blizzard withdraw their demands that would interfere with the rights and well-being of the players, teams, broadcasters and fans, while expressing our desire to continue assisting Blizzard as the original copyright holder with our resources. However, Blizzard continued to hold the policy that they would not return to the negotiation table until the association accepted their demands. Blizzard has stayed silent about their unreasonable demands, while distorting the situation around the breakdown into negotiations by claiming it is due to the association’s refusal to recognize their intellectual property rights.
The process of the negotiations In February of 2007, the association received a request for the ‘cessation of broadcast contracts regarding Starcraft’ (note: this refers to the broadcasting rights scandal of 2007, where KeSPA tried to sell the rights to broadcast Starcraft leagues) from Blizzard’s legal representatives, and we began negotiations on broadcasting rights and several other matters. While it has been three years since then, very few times did we actually sit down to talk, while Blizzard would arbitrarily halt or reopen negotiations depending on the progress of Starcraft II’s development. When Starcraft II’s release date became more clear last June, the negotiations opened again, only to stopped by Blizzard after the game’s release was delayed. While KeSPA has asked several times to continue negotiations or to speak with Blizzard’s Michael Morhaime, Blizzard continued to ask us to change our stance, or met us with silence completely.
Continuing to work for the rights of E-sports fans While problems still remain in the negotiations between the Korea E-Sports Association and Blizzard, we are always willing to continue negotiations for the sake of E-sports fans and the development of the E-sports market as a whole. To that end, we have sent an official request to Mike Morhaime of Blizzard to re-open the negotiations. If it is necessary in the future, the association and the pro-game teams are willing to hold a joint press conference on this matter as well.
On May 04 2010 07:36 Adron wrote: hmm, looks like blizzard woke up and eecided it wanted a piece of the pie Kespa baked. Or am i way off here?
while there could be a long debate over how representative KeSPA is of everyone who makes e-sports in korea possible, yes, it's about Blizzard wanting ownership over secondary content created by other people using their products.
i don't know if its just my long-standing hatred for kespa overwhelming my sense of logic...
but this sounds like some buuulllshiit. not only does kespa have literally no leverage against blizzard in future games, they simply wouldn't have existed were it not for the hard work blizzard put into making the game. i'm sure they were feeling the pressures and backlash from fans (i'm sure everybody who misses lan has cursed kespa under their breath) and just went into damage control mode.
i mean seriously. who the fuck is kespa? their only achievements i've heard of are almost making jaedong and a few others retire, almost killing proleague, killing GOMTV tourney probably due to Blizzard participation (LOL HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT IN THIS CONTEXT), and just overall being a bunch of bitches making terrible terrible rules (disqualification for "ggg" anyone?). if Boxer, who worked hard in pioneering ESPORTS and marketing it to the masses, said something about Blizzard then i would shut up. but kespa seems to have just suddenly appeared and claimed authority over ESPORTS and claimed it has the right to block blizzard out from getting involved in tourneys for a game they made.
How long before it will be before some moron says, "but Kespa created esports, Blizzard needs them" Kespa didn't create esports, the players did. Playing under harsh conditions with no pay, yet having the Charisma to get the government to back them is what made Kespa.
Blizzard could have ended this a long time ago and never did, all they did prior to SC2 was try and limit how much KeSPA claimed rights over it. Now blizzard is cutting them from the get go.
last article kespa looked like the villains, now.... i dont know what to believe, however, i was always more on kespa's side because of "big evil corporations"
Summary: Blizzard wants to get payed for having their product being used by an external company which on its own makes me money from using Blizzards product.
Kespa says "no, We do not want to pay you money or let you control the way we use your game."
Blizzard says "yes you will, otherwise you can consider the negotiations over and you will not be allowed to use starcraft to make money or create a e-sport scene around it."
I really don't see anything good coming out of this..
On May 04 2010 07:30 Waxangel wrote: In addition, Blizzard requests that all aspects of league management would have be authorized by them beforehand, including the acquiring of sponsorships, marketing planning and broadcast planning. Furthermore, Blizzard made other unreasonable requests beyond the rights of the copyright holder, such as royalties and sub-licensing fees on sponsorships and broadcasting fees, the right to audit KeSPA’s finances, as well as ownership of secondary content created through our unique resources in the teams, players, and broadcasting expertise.
Woah. Except for the requesting of royalties on broadcast, those are some seriously unreasonable demands. Do we have any other confirmation that this was Blizzard's negotiating position?
On May 04 2010 07:42 Railz wrote: How long before it will be before some moron says, "but Kespa created esports, Blizzard needs them" Kespa didn't create esports, the players did. Playing under harsh conditions with no pay, yet having the Charisma to get the government to back them is what made Kespa.
Blizzard could have ended this a long time ago and never did, all they did prior to SC2 was try and limit how much KeSPA claimed rights over it. Now blizzard is cutting them from the get go.
difference is the stakes weren't that high back then, but now, esports is huge, and it's not very reasonable for blizzard to step in now and demand compensation for esports' success in SK
Yeah if all they wanted were royalties I'm sure kespa would eventually give in somehow, but it looks like Blizzard basically wants power of veto on everything kespa does, which I doubt they will ever give.
i'm actually surprised at the number of people taking kespa's side. just try to remember a time you've heard kespa's name associated with a positive act? they are just a bunch of greedy bureaucratic idiots who are trying their best to stay alive with SC2 looming around the corner.
On May 04 2010 07:43 Senx wrote: Summary: Blizzard wants to get payed for having their product being used by an external company which on its own makes me money from using Blizzards product.
Kespa says "no, We do not want to pay you money or let you control the way we use your game."
Blizzard says "yes you will, otherwise you can consider the negotiations over and you will not be allowed to use starcraft to make money or create a e-sport scene around it."
I really don't see anything good coming out of this..
According to Kespa's statement It's more like
Kespay says "no, we don't wanna hand you over the esports industry on a silver platter" Blizzard says "fine you bitches can walk home"
I think it seems reasonable that Kespa pay blizzard. It kind of seems like they are just trying to benefit from blizzard's hard work for free. Which is ridiculous..
And from a legal standpoint, I don't see how kespa can really do anything.
I agree, royalties is FINE, but let them create the surrounding scene on their own, don't control their every action like Blizzard seems to be wanting to do.
It's very simple : Blizz was very greedy and Kes was very cocky. The solution for this problem is also very simple : Blizz gets a fair amount of money but no control at all and Kes gets total control of the proscene in Korea. After all Blizz is a company its job is to make money and Kes is a government-backed association so it is supposed to control and organize things.
On May 04 2010 07:46 redtooth wrote: i'm actually surprised at the number of people taking kespa's side. just try to remember a time you've heard kespa's name associated with a positive act? they are just a bunch of greedy bureaucratic idiots who are trying their best to stay alive with SC2 looming around the corner.
They may be, but they have now come to represent the entire esports industry. Whether they were idiots in the past or not, there is no chance that the esports scene will amputate kespa and run on its own, so hate it or love it, esports and kespa go hand in hand. Now if what kespa's statement outlines is true, blizzard is asking kespa to hand over the esports industry, and if you ask me that is absurd
On May 04 2010 07:48 kmdarkmaster wrote: It's very simple : Blizz was very greedy and Kes was very cocky. The solution for this problem is also very simple : Blizz gets a fair amount of money but no control at all and Kes gets total control of the proscene in Korea. After all Blizz is a company its job is to make money and Kes is a government-backed association so it is supposed to control and organize things.
Kespa stated that they would pay royalties. The part that kespa refuted was handing over ownership rights of teams, players, broadcasting systems and everything involved in the esports scene
On May 04 2010 07:47 Senx wrote: I agree, royalties is FINE, but let them create the surrounding scene on their own, don't control their every action like Blizzard seems to be wanting to do.
blizzard tried to get involved through gom tourney. kespa flexed its political muscles to shut it down. there really was no other reason to shut the tourney down. as a matter of fact, it was probably the best way for foreign awareness of ESPORTS. it was simply a terrible business move. after that, i'm sure blizzard doesn't want kespa to control anything.
You know what Kespa is probably most scared of? The auditing of their books. I'd love for Blizzard to audit their asses and see what shit turns up, corrupt bastards that they are.
On May 04 2010 07:30 Waxangel wrote: .... However, Blizzard would have limited the usage period of a game to only one year (note: I have no idea what the heck this means)....
My wild guess is that this is maybe referring to limiting how long SC2: Wings of Liberty is played in E-Sports. Blizzard wants to release the Zerg expansion in 12-18 months after SC2:WoL... and maintaining an E-sports league still running WoL after that release definitely isn't in their interest.
That's my guess anyway. The 12-18 month release window for Heart of the Swarm is the only "fact" in my post, taken from recent dev interviews.
Blizz is really shooting themselves in the foot right now. They want to take over the role of kespa as the central governing body in e sports, and popularize it elsewhere in the globe also. While I do believe, blizz would do a very good job of this, they won't be as dedicated or as successful as groups that emerge from the progaming community itself such as kespa. Between this and removal of lan support, while they will probably make more money off of sc2, they will hurt and hinder the development of esports world wide, which is very short sighted and will hurt them more in the long run.
I really don't think that blizzard controlling every single aspect of the way its game is used is fair... Royalties are fine, but even sponsorships, tournaments, and stuff? That might be going a little overboard.
Haha, they're playing up to there people for sympathy. We most likely won't get a true story from either side. However it's funny they completely blame the problem on Blizzard.
On May 04 2010 07:36 Adron wrote: hmm, looks like blizzard woke up and eecided it wanted a piece of the pie Kespa baked. Or am i way off here?
while there could be a long debate over how representative KeSPA is of everyone who makes e-sports in korea possible, yes, it's about Blizzard wanting ownership over secondary content created by other people using their products.
KeSPA pretty much represents all the corporate interests that make ESPORTS in South Korea possible. They don't represent the players, though.
In addition, Blizzard requests that all aspects of league management would have be authorized by them beforehand, including the acquiring of sponsorships, marketing planning and broadcast planning.
For those who just skimmed the article, this is the problem. As others mentioned, Blizzard basically wants to take over kespa if this is right. Also leaves very little face for kespa afterward since they basically would be taking it in the rear from blizzard at will if they agree, hence why blizzard's demands will never be accepted. And yeah from the whole gom-debacle, we've seen that kespa can be pretty ruthless in getting their way so we'll see.
On May 04 2010 07:46 redtooth wrote: i'm actually surprised at the number of people taking kespa's side. just try to remember a time you've heard kespa's name associated with a positive act? they are just a bunch of greedy bureaucratic idiots who are trying their best to stay alive with SC2 looming around the corner.
Of course they have plenty of flaws, but the one thing they did right is actually keep E-sports running.
On May 04 2010 07:36 Adron wrote: hmm, looks like blizzard woke up and eecided it wanted a piece of the pie Kespa baked. Or am i way off here?
while there could be a long debate over how representative KeSPA is of everyone who makes e-sports in korea possible, yes, it's about Blizzard wanting ownership over secondary content created by other people using their products.
KeSPA pretty much represents all the corporate interests that make ESPORTS in South Korea possible. They don't represent the players, though.
they do, all eleven teams have representatives partaking in kespa, and if one team were to act out against kespa, they'd probably get all their players DQ'd or something. That is unless 4 or 5 teams or more decide to act out together, but don't see that happening now with kespa already so deeply involved in the inner workings of esports
On May 04 2010 07:51 haruharu wrote: I really don't think that blizzard controlling every single aspect of the way its game is used is fair... Royalties are fine, but even sponsorships, tournaments, and stuff? That might be going a little overboard.
Why is it going overboard for Blizzard have to have a say in what brands, logos and slogans their product is associated with? Supposing hypothetically that Kespa announced their next sponsor was the KKK, and the next tournament was going to be the White Power Starcraft cup.
I don't think it's unreasonable at all that sponsors and tournaments have to be approved by Blizzard first.
I just read comment of Koreans to the article, and many of them don't have good feeling toward KesPA, and sided with Blizzard. They already experienced corruption and unsucceful work done by KesPA and believe Blizzard can do it better without KesPA.
BTW, some people do not agree that Blizzard's request to KesPA is not fair, especially the part talking about financial audit authority. They believe it is beyond Blizzard's authority and see it as way to kill KesPA. (which many Korean is looking forward)
However, Blizzard would have limited the usage period of a game to only one year (note: I have no idea what the heck this means), which would make it difficult to run a stable E-sports league.
Probably means Kespa would only have rights for a period of one year.
Both want the bone. Except it's a Mastiff Versus a Scottish Terrier. No matter what Kespa does, with all of Blizzard's money, they can make anything they want happen. Money talks. Neither is house trained. The players and viewers gotta teach them BOTH that they don't don't do their doo doo indoors.
On May 04 2010 07:50 Slow Motion wrote: You know what Kespa is probably most scared of? The auditing of their books. I'd love for Blizzard to audit their asses and see what shit turns up, corrupt bastards that they are.
I think so too. The fact that they cited this as a grievance makes me extremely suspicious.
However, Blizzard would have limited the usage period of a game to only one year (note: I have no idea what the heck this means), which would make it difficult to run a stable E-sports league.
Probably means Kespa would only have rights for a period of one year.
It means Kespa have to negotiate with Blizzard every year for rights, which means fee for right is going to increase by the time.
On May 04 2010 07:30 Waxangel wrote: In addition, Blizzard requests that all aspects of league management would have be authorized by them beforehand, including the acquiring of sponsorships, marketing planning and broadcast planning. Furthermore, Blizzard made other unreasonable requests beyond the rights of the copyright holder, such as royalties and sub-licensing fees on sponsorships and broadcasting fees, the right to audit KeSPA’s finances, as well as ownership of secondary content created through our unique resources in the teams, players, and broadcasting expertise.
Woah. Except for the requesting of royalties on broadcast, those are some seriously unreasonable demands. Do we have any other confirmation that this was Blizzard's negotiating position?
no, they're not, c'mon man.. do you ever read licensing agreements? they all seem ridiculously unreasonable if you want them to. on the other hand, if you think about all the possible things that could go horribly wrong if they didn't tie it up in an agreement beforehand, it starts looking a lot less bad.
edit: only thing that is ehh.. is the one year re-negotiation thing. that's tough to accept from kespa's point of view. if blizzard holds half the cards now, they'd hold all of them a year later after all the pro teams had sc2 players as well.
i think blizz is doing the right thing by demanding more rights for theyr own product. in my opinion kespa just made stupid rules nothin more. the players and fans brought e sports to the point where it is now.
On May 04 2010 07:50 Slow Motion wrote: You know what Kespa is probably most scared of? The auditing of their books. I'd love for Blizzard to audit their asses and see what shit turns up, corrupt bastards that they are.
I think so too. The fact that they cited this as a grievance makes me extremely suspicious.
Do you think that companies don't have secrets? Damn right they do. That isn't always a bad thing.
If these demands are correct blizzard basically wants to kill of KeSPA.
In my opinion it might not be that bad, with the way they're modelling the ladder and such, they might actually get involved in the esports business.
Part of me thinks this is just blizzards way of getting revenge over that GOM TV thing. And i say, let them, as long as they'll leave breathing room for an actual esports organisation to eventually take the reigns(one that isn't as ridiculous as KeSPA).
edit: then again, the way bnet2.0 is functioning right now would make me fear for esports.
On May 04 2010 07:47 Senx wrote: I agree, royalties is FINE, but let them create the surrounding scene on their own, don't control their every action like Blizzard seems to be wanting to do.
I don't think they want to control every action but they do want to have the final say on things. If KeSPA wants to have minors working 70+ hours a week in order for e-Sports to succeed then Blizzard wants to be able to say "No, you're not going to use my game for an industry like that."
nonononono kespa had the first issue, i mean denying gomtv omg that was an clear faul by kespa and since then blizzard had no choice as fight for there own product to make tournaments in sk...
Now blizzard fights for sc2 in sk because obviously kespa is again denying something without any right!
On May 04 2010 07:50 Slow Motion wrote: You know what Kespa is probably most scared of? The auditing of their books. I'd love for Blizzard to audit their asses and see what shit turns up, corrupt bastards that they are.
I think so too. The fact that they cited this as a grievance makes me extremely suspicious.
Do you think that companies don't have secrets? Damn right they do. That isn't always a bad thing.
AIG, Enron, ect my faith is waning and I think for a pretty good reason.
On May 04 2010 07:47 Senx wrote: I agree, royalties is FINE, but let them create the surrounding scene on their own, don't control their every action like Blizzard seems to be wanting to do.
I don't think they want to control every action but they do want to have the final say on things. If KeSPA wants to have minors working 70+ hours a week in order for e-Sports to succeed then Blizzard wants to be able to say "No, you're not going to use my game for an industry like that."
I highly doubt this is a moral thing. Money is not moral, or else slavery would never have been popular.
This sounds like more of a plea than a "hit back". It dosen't even sound like kespa is trying to suggest they have any legal ground to stand on at all, probably because they don't.
I don't think Blizzard is doing this so much because they want a piece of kespa's pie, but moreso because they want to assert control of their product from the start to set a precedent for having a share of all content created for/with SC2 worldwide. They didn't anticipate SC:BW to spark an entire esports industry, they probably didn't anticipate the success of mods like DOTA... but now they are expecting all those things and want to both facilitate them and make as much money off of them as they can.
On May 04 2010 07:50 Slow Motion wrote: You know what Kespa is probably most scared of? The auditing of their books. I'd love for Blizzard to audit their asses and see what shit turns up, corrupt bastards that they are.
Well, KesPA is corrupted bastard, that is so true. But many Koreans do not like the part that being audited by someone else, and blame Blizzard about it. It is their costom or culture. I am not saying Koreans love KesPA (in fact they hate them), but they are saying Blizz went too far.
I wish ESPORTS would be more like any other sport... for example, when you buy a Nike football, racket or whatever, it isn't up to Nike to decide what you do with their product - You actually own that specific product. For this to work of course, Blizzard shouldn't be the ones who provide the servers for their product, just like Nike doesn't provide the soccer field and thus aren't in control of what's happening on that field. You may argue, that there's an obvious difference between a football and a Starcraft. But I believe that's only because Blizzard, unfortunally, are allowed total control of the possessions you have bought from them. This is obviously because Blizzard, like any other company, much more interested in your money than ESPORTS in general. Not to say they don't care about ESPORTS at all though.
On May 04 2010 08:00 Waxangel wrote: Unless you're an international copyright lawyer, I don't think any of us really knows what's actually within Blizzard's rights or not ^_^
More often than not in these cases its more about whats in their power. Blizzard would previously have had to go through the SK legal system to claim their rights on bw which would have failed because of the sway of the companies behind Kespa. Whereas with sc2 there is no LAN and private servers etc are against the EULA. It doesn't matter whether they can make a legal case for it, if Blizzard doesn't want someone using sc2 they can shut them down because the games will be played on their server. The audit demand seemed extreme, I kinda got the impression Blizzard were demanding everything to make a point. Still, they hold every card here. No amount of government influence will help Kespa if they have to openly hack the game on live television just to play a game of sc2.
On May 04 2010 07:46 redtooth wrote: i'm actually surprised at the number of people taking kespa's side. just try to remember a time you've heard kespa's name associated with a positive act? they are just a bunch of greedy bureaucratic idiots who are trying their best to stay alive with SC2 looming around the corner.
Of course they have plenty of flaws, but the one thing they did right is actually keep E-sports running.
they almost killed proleague. they did kill one of the 3 individual leagues. they almost forced the superstar player of the time (the Dong) to retire.
did they really "keep E-sports" running? i think ESPORTS was fine before i heard of kespa. lol does forcing individuals to type exactly "gg" keep ESPORTS running?
On May 04 2010 07:47 Senx wrote: I agree, royalties is FINE, but let them create the surrounding scene on their own, don't control their every action like Blizzard seems to be wanting to do.
I don't think they want to control every action but they do want to have the final say on things. If KeSPA wants to have minors working 70+ hours a week in order for e-Sports to succeed then Blizzard wants to be able to say "No, you're not going to use my game for an industry like that."
But people want to see Flash vs Jaedong caliber matchs. We will need to sacrifice the lives of many Korean nerds to achieve true ESPORTS §
On May 04 2010 08:01 Liquid`NonY wrote: If KeSPA wants to have minors working 70+ hours a week in order for e-Sports to succeed then Blizzard wants to be able to say "No, you're not going to use my game for an industry like that."
Where's the evidence on that 70+ hours a week ???? Personal experience??
On May 04 2010 07:47 Senx wrote: I agree, royalties is FINE, but let them create the surrounding scene on their own, don't control their every action like Blizzard seems to be wanting to do.
I don't think they want to control every action but they do want to have the final say on things. If KeSPA wants to have minors working 70+ hours a week in order for e-Sports to succeed then Blizzard wants to be able to say "No, you're not going to use my game for an industry like that."
I highly doubt this is a moral thing. Money is not moral, or else slavery would never have been popular.
It doesn't have to be moral. It can just be about Blizzard's image and that's purely a financial concern. Anyway, the royalties/fees part is obviously a financial thing. But reserving the right to control the whole operation isn't necessarily a financial thing (though yes, I guess I can never disprove that in the end, no matter how indirectly, it all comes back to money).
It could be Blizzard just wants to run things according to the business culture of their company. Ethics and culture (the companies' cultures, not necessarily American/Korean cultures) could play a huge role. Morals isn't it though. Definitely ethics.
Anyway, for the vast majority of tournaments, I think it'll just be Blizzard's esports team giving a good look and making sure everything is legit and then just saying OK go run your tournament.
On May 04 2010 08:05 XsebT wrote: I wish ESPORTS would be more like any other sport... for example, when you buy a Nike football, racket or whatever, it isn't up to Nike to decide what you do with their product - You actually own that specific product. For this to work of course, Blizzard shouldn't be the ones who provide the servers for their product, just like Nike doesn't provide the soccer field and thus aren't in control of what's happening on that field. You may argue, that there's an obvious difference between a football and a Starcraft. But I believe that's only because Blizzard, unfortunally, are allowed total control of the possessions you have bought from them. This is obviously because Blizzard, like any other company, much more interested in your money than ESPORTS in general. Not to say they don't care about ESPORTS at all though.
Tennis racket is to the game tennis as keyboard is to the game starcraft.
When you buy a keyboard they don't demand the rights to everything you do with it. Whereas a completely new game is invented, designed, coded, balanced, funded and sustained by Blizzard.
Even though KeSPA has made many poor decisions in the past, in this case their kind of right.
If Blizzard takes over the management of Korean e-sports, they're going to use it to promote their games first and the development of e-sports itself second. What if, for example, Blizzard decided to stop all Korean StarCraft tournaments when SC2 came out? It might be good for their latest release, but it spontaneously pull the rug out from under the biggest e-sports league in the world.
What would that mean for their future? That it's not worthwhile to really dedicate yourself to a game because the tournaments might just end? That television stations and players associations and sponsors can't create long-lasting financial roots in a game before its developer pulls the plug? These things simply can't be allowed to happen.
Part of why Korean StarCraft is so big is because everyone involved saw the long-term financial potential and wanted to invest. Video game developers don't like to think of their games as long term prospects unless they're virtually printing money like World of WarCraft.
On the other hand, I can see why Blizzard would want money for the use of their product. I have a feeling that, when it comes to this, KeSPA is probably trying to stiff them. It's their way.
Like Wax said, international copyright lawyers will be the real deciding factor here. But the most fair solution to e-sports and all the parties involved would be for KeSPA (or some kind of other independent organization) to control e-sports, and for Blizzard to be compensated for what happens.
Blizzard's demands honestly don't seem that ridiculous.
The association promised Blizzard the continued marketing and promotional support of their products through the use of all our resources including players, teams and broadcasting, and constant investment including the obtainment of sponsorships, as well as expressing an interest in paying a reasonable usage fee for their products. However, Blizzard would have limited the usage period of a game to only one year (note: I have no idea what the heck this means), which would make it difficult to run a stable E-sports league.
Kespa has basically agreed to a broadcasting fee, but Blizzard only wants to sell them the rights to broadcast for 1 year, after which I imagine they would have to renegotiate. Seeing as how brutal these negotiations are and how fickle both sides are apparently being, Kespa wants to lock in for a longer period I guess. I imagine this is one of the biggest sticking points since the threat of having your right to broadcast sc2 revoked after one year isn't really sustainable for a TV station, they definitely need a larger commitment than that.
In addition, Blizzard requests that all aspects of league management would have be authorized by them beforehand, including the acquiring of sponsorships, marketing planning and broadcast planning.
I think it's reasonable and within the rights of Blizzard to have a say in what brands and products are marketed alongside their intellectual property. I doubt for example they would want a competitor to one of their games sponsor a tournament.
Furthermore, Blizzard made other unreasonable requests beyond the rights of the copyright holder, such as royalties and sub-licensing fees on sponsorships and broadcasting fees, the right to audit KeSPA’s finances, as well as ownership of secondary content created through our unique resources in the teams, players, and broadcasting expertise.
I think this is also within their rights to own content that is derived from their base work. It wouldn't exist without them. I don't think these are "beyond the rights of the copyright holder" like Kespa claims. Of course copyright law varies by country so it's difficult to say, and they aren't being specific about what kind of secondary content it is.
My guess is it just comes down to dollars and cents at the end of the day, like almost everything in this world. We don't know what kind of royalty fees they are asking and things like that.
Other than the 1 year broadcasting term, nothing to me seems absurd in their demands.
I don't know, really it's hard to say exactly what's going on here unless we are directly involved in the negotiations.
When I was first reading this, I thought it sounded ridiculous for Blizzard to demand all that, but when some posters noted how it could be Blizzard just making sure the game isn't being used for things they don't want it associated with, then I kind of rescinded that thought, although it still sounds pretty powerful.
I still stand that I think Blizzard should be compensated, but I can't really judge how reasonable their demands are being I have nowhere near a complete education in the field of business and economics, but it's a mixed bag.
It's kind of just how you look at it. On one hand, it seems like Blizzard is just trying to get money and control the scene, but on the other hand, it could seem like they are trying to protect eSports or the integrity of the game and maybe even KeSPA.
But it would be nice if more news like this popped up. Would shed some light on the negotiations.
I guess it's kind of a hard issue to deal with to, as televised competition like this never seemed to have to deal with the minds behind the sport, so how it should be handled may not be clear as it's kind of an interesting and different situation in and of itself. Although that could be my ignorance talking.
In addition, Blizzard requests that all aspects of league management would have be authorized by them beforehand, including the acquiring of sponsorships, marketing planning and broadcast planning.
For those who just skimmed the article, this is the problem. As others mentioned, Blizzard basically wants to take over kespa if this is right. Also leaves very little face for kespa afterward since they basically would be taking it in the rear from blizzard at will if they agree, hence why blizzard's demands will never be accepted. And yeah from the whole gom-debacle, we've seen that kespa can be pretty ruthless in getting their way so we'll see.
Pet Theory Warning: I am talking out of my ass here, no facts, just speculation ->
This comment made me wonder if, at some point in the past several years, Blizzard realized that they no longer wish to truly negotiate with KeSPA. So they put out demands that, despite technically being within Blizzard's rights (?I don't know for sure), were unacceptable to KeSPA.
So, KeSPA refuses as expected, knows they've been stuck in a corner, and do what they can to make Blizzard look bad. Blizzard, owning the IP and now supposedly free of KeSPA's involvement, moves forward however they can.
Of course, we don't know what, if anything, Blizzard can arrange in Korea without KeSPA's blessing.
Lastly, I really doubt either party is "blameless" here.
On May 04 2010 08:09 DTDominion wrote: Even though KeSPA has made many poor decisions in the past, in this case their kind of right.
If Blizzard takes over the management of Korean e-sports, they're going to use it to promote their games first and the development of e-sports itself second. What if, for example, Blizzard decided to stop all Korean StarCraft tournaments when SC2 came out? It might be good for their latest release, but it spontaneously pull the rug out from under the biggest e-sports league in the world.
If KeSPA owned their own games, and they were good enough to get sponsors and have leagues, they would 100% support only their own games. In fact, haven't they already done this? Made copycat games? I'm sure one of our tl.net historians can tell us.
Blizzard is trying to do to KeSPA what KeSPA did to the Blizzard-supported GOM.
Good. KeSPA deserves it. No, Blizzard's conditions, if Kespa's quote is accurate, are not reasonable. There are a lot of flat-out ridiculous demands in there, like the right to audit. However, KeSPA brought it on themselves, and now they're going to be left in the dust.
The only question is if they'll just stand back and get left in the dust alone, or if they'll drag the entirety of South Korea down with them.
On May 04 2010 08:05 XsebT wrote: I wish ESPORTS would be more like any other sport... for example, when you buy a Nike football, racket or whatever, it isn't up to Nike to decide what you do with their product - You actually own that specific product. For this to work of course, Blizzard shouldn't be the ones who provide the servers for their product, just like Nike doesn't provide the soccer field and thus aren't in control of what's happening on that field. You may argue, that there's an obvious difference between a football and a Starcraft. But I believe that's only because Blizzard, unfortunally, are allowed total control of the possessions you have bought from them. This is obviously because Blizzard, like any other company, much more interested in your money than ESPORTS in general. Not to say they don't care about ESPORTS at all though.
Tennis racket is to the game tennis as keyboard is to the game starcraft.
When you buy a keyboard they don't demand the rights to everything you do with it. Whereas a completely new game is invented, designed, coded, balanced, funded and sustained by Blizzard.
Yeah, that was quite a stupid part in my argumentation, but you get my point. I would much rather pay more for my product(SC) for Blizzard not to be in control of my product.
In addition, Blizzard requests that all aspects of league management would have be authorized by them beforehand, including the acquiring of sponsorships, marketing planning and broadcast planning.
For those who just skimmed the article, this is the problem. As others mentioned, Blizzard basically wants to take over kespa if this is right. Also leaves very little face for kespa afterward since they basically would be taking it in the rear from blizzard at will if they agree, hence why blizzard's demands will never be accepted. And yeah from the whole gom-debacle, we've seen that kespa can be pretty ruthless in getting their way so we'll see.
No this is called a license to use their software in the real world. It's not a takeover and they are asking for royalties and a few other items in compensation on a per year basis. KeSPA doesn't want to open their books for whatever reasons each year and be honest about how well or poorly they are doing.
It's not Blizzard's problem that KeSPA wouldn't accept the terms of the license and now all of a sudden KeSPA feels all the "hard work" they have done without a license has put them in a position of getting screwed. Maybe if they bought a clue with all the money they've made without a license a few years ago they wouldn't be in the boat they are in and I'd sympathize.
On May 04 2010 08:18 bearbuddy wrote: There's only one way to settle this...
Blizzard employee vs KeSPA referee bo7, GO!
David Kim... nuf said.
That asshole of a judge Chang Suk Joon that DQ'd leta for typing pp used to be a progamer, if it were SC1 bo7 i have a feeling david kim would get creamed
If Kespa is using revenue sharing as an argument, I don't see what's so bad about Blizzard wanting a piece of the revenue that Kespa generates. Starcraft is Blizzard's product.
To use an analogy, the way I see it is that Blizzard is similar to the role of a sports agent. The sport agents spends about a few days brokering a deal for their athlete client, that agent will make 10-20% of all the revenue generating activities of the athlete during the lifetime of the relationship. The athlete will train, play in front of fans, shoot commercials, deal with injury, while the agent sits in the office reading about new athletes on ESPN.com and collect those 10% cuts from all his clients. Why can't Blizzard have a similar cut for the product that they created?
But that's really not even the issue. Blizzard is concerned about its intellectual rights that it allowed a company to use, but that company may have not kept up their end of the bargain.
There's nothing wrong with a company wanting to audit a partnering company's financials. Almost every profitable company in the world gets audited. I work for an auditing firm in the U.S and the whole purpose of my job is to make sure the company is running a proper business so that other companies would feel secure dealing with it. If Kespa is maintaining a legit operation, they shouldn't have to worry about hiding anything, right?
Lastly, Kespa is making itself seem as if it is a victim. E-sports is a multi-million dollar business in Korea. Granted, Blizzard is a multi-billion dollar corporation, but to make it seem as if it was a victim that it is being bullied around is ridiculous.
If they can't respect Blizzard's product, they should go ahead and broadcast more Dungeon Fighter Online matches. I don't mind seeing Starcraft 2 with teamless single player tourneys on GOMTV.
hm, i wouldnt want a 1year contract without a passage to allow for an easy prolonging either. i mean they do have to invest, aquire sponsors (hey we have this league, ye really great, sadly its only fixed for one year now, we cannot say what will happen after this - lol?) etc etc. you need some planning that goes longer than 1 year to do that successfully.
€: what i wanted to say; this point on its own is just not acceptable, blizz needs to give them better options, shouldnt be to difficult, like: 1year, can be extended to same conditions for another year, if we release expansion pack your contract is converted to that, the old one expires...
I'm a little torn as to who to believe as well. I've met Mike Morhaime in person but that doesn't mean he can't be a real hard pressed business man when it comes to this type of thing. I still don't think anything Blizzard is asking for is too far fetched, it's their product, they just want to make sure things are run within their context and not be superseded by other corporations by agreeing to terms that might otherwise take away the power from them.
Blizzard and Stacraft 2 is the only chance for KeSPA to survive another 5 years. Before someone makes a professional sport tournament metaphor, look at how hard KeSPA failed at promoting lol games like SuddenAttack. Yes the GAME is the core component of eSport.
On May 04 2010 07:36 Adron wrote: hmm, looks like blizzard woke up and eecided it wanted a piece of the pie Kespa baked. Or am i way off here?
while there could be a long debate over how representative KeSPA is of everyone who makes e-sports in korea possible, yes, it's about Blizzard wanting ownership over secondary content created by other people using their products.
I believe that is maps and other content created with map editor.
On May 04 2010 07:46 redtooth wrote: i'm actually surprised at the number of people taking kespa's side. just try to remember a time you've heard kespa's name associated with a positive act? they are just a bunch of greedy bureaucratic idiots who are trying their best to stay alive with SC2 looming around the corner.
Of course they have plenty of flaws, but the one thing they did right is actually keep E-sports running.
they almost killed proleague. they did kill one of the 3 individual leagues. they almost forced the superstar player of the time (the Dong) to retire.
did they really "keep E-sports" running? i think ESPORTS was fine before i heard of kespa. lol does forcing individuals to type exactly "gg" keep ESPORTS running?
gespa.
I don't even understand why posts like this exist. Do you even have any remote idea of what you're talking about? Esports might have been fine before you heard of KeSPA, but - and I know this is going to come as a surprise to you - reality still exists even if you aren't aware of it. There were no Esports pre-KeSPA. The same movers behind KeSPA itself were the ones who started the scene (and basically Esports itself) in the first place.
The Korean SC scene is still by and large the only true 'success' Esports have had. A very select few WC3 and CS players making okay money is the only remote argument - and neither of those is anywhere near as sustainable as SC in Korea is. Everyone is so willing to see SC die, it seems. There's this notion that SC2 will replace it, but in reality I still enjoy SC as much as I did when I started consistently watching pro games 5 years ago, and 5 years before that when the game was still fresh on everyone's minds. There's nothing preventing the game from lasting as long as Go, chess, etc... because with community involvement, it is that good of a game.
On May 04 2010 07:47 Senx wrote: I agree, royalties is FINE, but let them create the surrounding scene on their own, don't control their every action like Blizzard seems to be wanting to do.
I don't think they want to control every action but they do want to have the final say on things. If KeSPA wants to have minors working 70+ hours a week in order for e-Sports to succeed then Blizzard wants to be able to say "No, you're not going to use my game for an industry like that."
It's this kind of rhetoric that drives these discussions way out of hand. Blizzard is the white knight, caring so much about making a great game for the fans and all of that and just wanting a piece of their pie; while KeSPA is the corrupt Asian sweatshop owner which keeps people as slaves. And we hold this attitude why? Because Blizzard does things here and there to please the fans (read: get you to buy their next product as well)? I'd like to think that someone as intelligent as you could see through this, Nony..
On May 04 2010 08:22 legendin wrote: The bottom line is that Blizzard has complete and absolute rights to Starcraft, being their intellectual property, and especially any action that leads to profiting from an IP they created. KeSPA has no legs to stand on and should be grateful that Blizzard have been as lenient as they have been. Blizzard doesn't have to deal with anybody if they don't want to and negotiations last at the pleasure of Blizzard's lawyers. If KeSPA wants any hopes of dealing they better get humble fast.
See, you need to be careful in saying things absolutely like this. According to korean copyright lawyers posting on fomos, Copyright holders cant do shit about products that are made secondary to the primary product. I wish people would read a little more before saying things like "complete and absolute rights". This isn't Amerika.
The way i hear it kespa wants all the rights to an industry it didnt make, and blizzard wants royalties and the ability to overlook everything that kespa is doing, which to me sounds fair considering blizzard made the game. In my opinion, Blizzard just wants to be more involved with SC2 because they saw what happened with sc1 in korea, and want to expand on that.
No this is called a license to use their software in the real world. It's not a takeover and they are asking for royalties and a few other items in compensation on a per year basis. KeSPA doesn't want to open their books for whatever reasons each year and be honest about how well or poorly they are doing.
It's not Blizzard's problem that KeSPA wouldn't accept the terms of the license and now all of a sudden KeSPA feels all the "hard work" they have done without a license has put them in a position of getting screwed. Maybe if they bought a clue with all the money they've made without a license a few years ago they wouldn't be in the boat they are in and I'd sympathize.
Errr, its not the royalties thats the problem, even kespa would likely find it not too unreasonable for blizzard to want to collect royalties of a reasonable amount. The problem is giving blizzard decision-making power on the way things are run in Korean esports. With essentially veto-power over every single aspect of the way kespa does things in regards to starcraft, Blizzard would be taking over kespa in a way.
Main thing IMO though is the way things are being done. It isn't giving kespa any sort of movement space or way to back down gracefully. And, as many people know, people in East Asia don't particularly like losing face in that way, or at all. At this rate its virtually guaranteed that no agreement will be found unless any one of the two or both sides eat some humble pie and act reasonably. Kespa can either live with it or in a final act poison it so SC2 will never succeed as an esport as a final act of revenge. People need to remember that American business practices and manners aren't completely the same in Korea. Just my thoughts.
The proverbial "meat-and-potatoes" of the article:
Furthermore, Blizzard made other unreasonable requests beyond the rights of the copyright holder, such as royalties and sub-licensing fees on sponsorships and broadcasting fees, the right to audit KeSPA’s finances, as well as ownership of secondary content created through our unique resources in the teams, players, and broadcasting expertise.
I am not a lawyer sadly, but I'll be damned if I don't have my say on it =P
...royalties and sub-licensing fees on sponsorships and broadcasting...
It seems completely within Blizzard's rights to make money off of the broadcasting of Starcraft. I'd compare it to any channel deciding to broadcast a sports league, you have to pay for broadcasting rights. Sub-licensing fees give production rights to non-copyright holders, seems that Blizzard is fine so far.
...the right to audit KeSPA’s finances...
Assuming this is true, this seems unreasonable, and it's a question of Blizzard's right to demand this in a contract negotiation. "My game my rules" is the Blizzard stance, and I don't know why they wouldn't be able to demand this.
...ownership of secondary content created through our unique resources in the teams, players, and broadcasting expertise...
Blizzard has a history of demanding ownership of secondary content. If there are any WoW players here, you probably know that Blizzard owns your profile, thus selling profiles and making money of content designed materialized by their engine is forbidden by the little "Terms of Service" thing you decided to accept when you installed the game. Starcraft 2 is no exception. If you run a legal copy of the game (thus agreeing to ToS), Blizzard owns your user created content.
KeSPA suggests that there are other "unreasonable" demands, and I'd imagine that KeSPA's ultimate goal is to pay a flat fee every year or so while doing what they wish with broadcasting and content. Whatever the truth of Blizzard's demands may be, it's clear that Blizzard doesn't simply want money, but an element of control over KeSPA's actions.
No one but the companies know the details, but in the eyes of a casual follower of the pro-scene, I'd have no moral issues with Blizzard's stance. The pro-scene in Korea is hardly a model organization, with menial wages, horrid work hours, and even a recent match-fixing scandal! KeSPA is not an angelic organization that promotes e-sports for the love of the game, but is ultimately an organization created by corporate owners that tries to maximize exposure profit. I certainly wouldn't mind Blizzard putting a collar around such an organization...
On May 04 2010 07:46 redtooth wrote: i'm actually surprised at the number of people taking kespa's side. just try to remember a time you've heard kespa's name associated with a positive act? they are just a bunch of greedy bureaucratic idiots who are trying their best to stay alive with SC2 looming around the corner.
Of course they have plenty of flaws, but the one thing they did right is actually keep E-sports running.
they almost killed proleague. they did kill one of the 3 individual leagues. they almost forced the superstar player of the time (the Dong) to retire.
did they really "keep E-sports" running? i think ESPORTS was fine before i heard of kespa. lol does forcing individuals to type exactly "gg" keep ESPORTS running?
gespa.
It's KeSPA's money that allows you to watch proleague and the starleagues in the first place.
And I find it odd that people are enthused by Blizzard wanting to have more control over the proscene, beyond just the issue of royalties. I'd like to think more highly of them in that regard, but really, all the decisions they've made so far seem bad -- no LAN, separate servers, etc. At the same time, they expect other companies to provide sponsorships. Trying to control everything without backing it up with money is going to stifle the growth of esports.
They're game developers. They should stick to making games and selling them.
Well, if nothing else, they have requested to reopen negotiations. Hopefully, that will result in them reaching some sort of agreement (although, sadly, there is very little to be optimistic about).
Honestly, this dispute is not good for either party. I wish they would recognise that.
I'm curious how many people here even read WaxAngel's translation, since it's clear a lot of you guys are spewing nonsense that haven't been even been mentioned in the article. If you're going to be hopelessly backing Blizzard on this, be my guest, but please, read the article.
However, Blizzard would have limited the usage period of a game to only one year (note: I have no idea what the heck this means), which would make it difficult to run a stable E-sports league.
Yeah, this is quite annoying to translate. The translation is quite literal though, so I'm going to guess that Blizzard is really "limiting" the game usage to "one year". This has many connotation -- it could mean that they're actually only allowing one year per game of eSports, or one year of royalty-free content. However, judging by the rest of the article, I'm leaning towards the former
However, WaxAngel's translation is quite wrong. In fact, I'll need to correct this because it gives the COMPLETELY WRONG PICTURE of how KeSPA has viewed Blizzard's demands. Let me make a few corrections.
-----
Blizzard requests that all aspects of league management would have be authorized by them beforehand, including the acquiring of sponsorships, marketing planning and broadcast planning, while requesting royalties and sub-licensing fees.
IN ADDITION TO THIS, Blizzard goes "one step beyond" and made other unreasonable requests beyond the rights of the copyright holder, the right to audit KeSPA’s finances, as well as ownership of secondary content created through our unique resources in the teams, players, and broadcasting expertise.
--------------
Let's put it quite clear. KeSPA does not think royalties are unreasonable. The unreasonable demands are the second paragraph, it's a fight over ownership of content. And fuck, why should Blizzard ever have the right to audit another company? That's complete and utter bullshit.
Remember when I said "KeSPA would not reject Blizzard unless Blizzard was being unreasonable"? Well, there we go.
Y'know, it seems to me (if there weren't so much pride at stake here) that the reasonable thing to do would be to establish working relations with KeSPA for SC2 and use that as a model - encouraging other "associations" to organize under the Blizzard banner (a la, say, FIFA). (This would have the added benefit of making stuff like WCG matches easier to organize...)
Now, I realize the problems: 1) KeSPA isn't exactly what you want your model to be, 2) there is a lot of "face" at stake. But if Blizzard came to KeSPA and tried to sell-them on this sort of long-term plan (rather than the short-term "lease" model they seem to be trying to force) negotiations might get a little farther.
Yeah, I'm speculating. No, I'm not a businessman or a lawyer. Just throwing this out there is all.
Oh guys come on, sport can't be organized and controlled by companies, only the government can do that, that's what the "ministry of culture and sport" for. Kespa will be brought down in the future if e-sport grows big enough and the korean government will replace it. There is absolutely no way a foreign company like Blizz can control the proscene in korea. And yeah if SC2 is not negotiable it will be erased from the e-sport game list, Korean government can do it. I don't have any hope that Sc2 will evolve to be an e-sport in Europe and America because no western government like that idea and western people are not really into computer games anyway.
I actually support KeSPA in this, Blizzard looks like it's trying to cash grab at a game they abandoned a long time ago. as for SC2 rights, that's a completely different ballgame.
If what kespa said about what they were bringing to the table is true, then it is indeed blizzard who is being bull-headed about this,,,
On May 04 2010 08:37 Milkis wrote: I'm curious how many people here even read WaxAngel's translation, since it's clear a lot of you guys are spewing nonsense that haven't been even been mentioned in the article. If you're going to be hopelessly backing Blizzard on this, be my guest, but please, read the article.
However, Blizzard would have limited the usage period of a game to only one year (note: I have no idea what the heck this means), which would make it difficult to run a stable E-sports league.
Yeah, this is quite annoying to translate. The translation is quite literal though, so I'm going to guess that Blizzard is really "limiting" the game usage to "one year". This has many connotation -- it could mean that they're actually only allowing one year per game of eSports, or one year of royalty-free content. However, judging by the rest of the article, I'm leaning towards the former
However, WaxAngel's translation is quite wrong. In fact, I'll need to correct this because it gives the COMPLETELY WRONG PICTURE of how KeSPA has viewed Blizzard's demands. Let me make a few corrections.
-----
Blizzard requests that all aspects of league management would have be authorized by them beforehand, including the acquiring of sponsorships, marketing planning and broadcast planning, while requesting royalties and sub-licensing fees.
IN ADDITION TO THIS, Blizzard goes "one step beyond" and made other unreasonable requests beyond the rights of the copyright holder, the right to audit KeSPA’s finances, as well as ownership of secondary content created through our unique resources in the teams, players, and broadcasting expertise.
--------------
Let's put it quite clear. KeSPA does not think royalties are unreasonable. The unreasonable demands are the second paragraph, it's a fight over ownership of content. And fuck, why should Blizzard ever have the right to audit another company? That's complete and utter bullshit.
No, that sentence is ambiguous at worst. "Quite wrong" is wrong.
PM me if you want to have a long dicussion on korean grammar.
In addition, Blizzard requests that all aspects of league management would have be authorized by them beforehand, including the acquiring of sponsorships, marketing planning and broadcast planning.
I think it's reasonable and within the rights of Blizzard to have a say in what brands and products are marketed alongside their intellectual property. I doubt for example they would want a competitor to one of their games sponsor a tournament.
Like the Batoo OSL? ClubDay MSL? Esports isn't about getting a little bit of extra market share per se. Not accepting sponsorships from Blizzard's competitors means fewer competitive bids.
Furthermore, Blizzard made other unreasonable requests beyond the rights of the copyright holder, such as royalties and sub-licensing fees on sponsorships and broadcasting fees, the right to audit KeSPA’s finances, as well as ownership of secondary content created through our unique resources in the teams, players, and broadcasting expertise.
I think this is also within their rights to own content that is derived from their base work. It wouldn't exist without them. I don't think these are "beyond the rights of the copyright holder" like Kespa claims. Of course copyright law varies by country so it's difficult to say, and they aren't being specific about what kind of secondary content it is.
Frankly, derivative works are just the sort of things that Blizzard wouldn't own, but would get royalties for. Don't forget that KeSPA is representing everybody (teams, players, OGN/MBCgame) in this. They are all responsible for the specialized labor that you need to create a vast, institutionalized esports scene (don't take away my LiveBattle and Oldboy). While I can appreciate Blizzard's motives, they don't represent esports as we have known it, so I find that they've gone too far.
On May 04 2010 07:46 redtooth wrote: i'm actually surprised at the number of people taking kespa's side. just try to remember a time you've heard kespa's name associated with a positive act? they are just a bunch of greedy bureaucratic idiots who are trying their best to stay alive with SC2 looming around the corner.
Of course they have plenty of flaws, but the one thing they did right is actually keep E-sports running.
they almost killed proleague. they did kill one of the 3 individual leagues. they almost forced the superstar player of the time (the Dong) to retire.
did they really "keep E-sports" running? i think ESPORTS was fine before i heard of kespa. lol does forcing individuals to type exactly "gg" keep ESPORTS running?
gespa.
I don't even understand why posts like this exist. Do you even have any remote idea of what you're talking about? Esports might have been fine before you heard of KeSPA, but - and I know this is going to come as a surprise to you - reality still exists even if you aren't aware of it. There were no Esports pre-KeSPA. The same movers behind KeSPA itself were the ones who started the scene (and basically Esports itself) in the first place.
The Korean SC scene is still by and large the only true 'success' Esports have had. A very select few WC3 and CS players making okay money is the only remote argument - and neither of those is anywhere near as sustainable as SC in Korea is. Everyone is so willing to see SC die, it seems. There's this notion that SC2 will replace it, but in reality I still enjoy SC as much as I did when I started consistently watching pro games 5 years ago, and 5 years before that when the game was still fresh on everyone's minds. There's nothing preventing the game from lasting as long as Go, chess, etc... because with community involvement, it is that good of a game.
On May 04 2010 07:47 Senx wrote: I agree, royalties is FINE, but let them create the surrounding scene on their own, don't control their every action like Blizzard seems to be wanting to do.
I don't think they want to control every action but they do want to have the final say on things. If KeSPA wants to have minors working 70+ hours a week in order for e-Sports to succeed then Blizzard wants to be able to say "No, you're not going to use my game for an industry like that."
It's this kind of rhetoric that drives these discussions way out of hand. Blizzard is the white knight, caring so much about making a great game for the fans and all of that and just wanting a piece of their pie; while KeSPA is the corrupt Asian sweatshop owner which keeps people as slaves. And we hold this attitude why? Because Blizzard does things here and there to please the fans (read: get you to buy their next product as well)? I'd like to think that someone as intelligent as you could see through this, Nony..
Sorry I'm not trying to use rhetoric to convince people to take one side or the other. But all bias aside, it is perfectly reasonable to think that Blizzard cares about business ethics. Senx was asking why Blizzard isn't satisfied with just the royalties -- why do they also want control? Yeah, control is definitely, at least, for financial reasons too. But it could also be for Blizzard to take responsibility for their products. Anyway, my example is a fact and it's not distorted. I'm sure Blizzard is aware of it and I'm sure they know that if they directly profit from KeSPA's operation then they are responsible for it as well.
No, that sentence is ambiguous at worst. "Quite wrong" is wrong.
The "Unreasonable requests beyond the rights of the copyright holder" refers to the latter half, after the "In addition to this, one step beyond". They divided the terms blizzard stated quite coherently, one BEFORE the "goes one step beyond" comment (where the royalties remark was), and a few after, regarding ownership/audit rights.
You purposely put "Royalties" after the "one step beyond" to make your point, it seems. That's quite a wrong translation, you purposely redivided what KeSPA had divided as what was the "first set of demands" and the "second set of demands" that they believed went one step beyond what was copyright laws.
So, your translation is wrong. Simple as that. I dont think there's much ambiguity.
No, that sentence is ambiguous at worst. "Quite wrong" is wrong.
The "Unreasonable requests beyond the rights of the copyright holder" refers to the latter half, after the "In addition to this, one step beyond". They divided the terms blizzard stated quite coherently, one BEFORE the "goes one step beyond" comment (where the royalties remark was), and a few after, regarding ownership/audit rights.
You purposely put "Royalties" after the "one step beyond" to make your point, it seems. That's quite a wrong translation, you purposely redivided what KeSPA had divided as what was the "first set of demands" and the "second set of demands" that they believed went one step beyond what was copyright laws.
So, your translation is wrong. Simple as that. I dont think there's much ambiguity.
i think blizzard is just throwing up a smoke screen and hoping that kespa will cave in or give up. if blizzard was serious about their IP, they would go to court like they always do.
On May 04 2010 07:46 redtooth wrote: i'm actually surprised at the number of people taking kespa's side. just try to remember a time you've heard kespa's name associated with a positive act? they are just a bunch of greedy bureaucratic idiots who are trying their best to stay alive with SC2 looming around the corner.
Of course they have plenty of flaws, but the one thing they did right is actually keep E-sports running.
they almost killed proleague. they did kill one of the 3 individual leagues. they almost forced the superstar player of the time (the Dong) to retire.
did they really "keep E-sports" running? i think ESPORTS was fine before i heard of kespa. lol does forcing individuals to type exactly "gg" keep ESPORTS running?
gespa.
I don't even understand why posts like this exist. Do you even have any remote idea of what you're talking about? Esports might have been fine before you heard of KeSPA, but - and I know this is going to come as a surprise to you - reality still exists even if you aren't aware of it. There were no Esports pre-KeSPA. The same movers behind KeSPA itself were the ones who started the scene (and basically Esports itself) in the first place.
The Korean SC scene is still by and large the only true 'success' Esports have had. A very select few WC3 and CS players making okay money is the only remote argument - and neither of those is anywhere near as sustainable as SC in Korea is. Everyone is so willing to see SC die, it seems. There's this notion that SC2 will replace it, but in reality I still enjoy SC as much as I did when I started consistently watching pro games 5 years ago, and 5 years before that when the game was still fresh on everyone's minds. There's nothing preventing the game from lasting as long as Go, chess, etc... because with community involvement, it is that good of a game.
On May 04 2010 08:01 Liquid`NonY wrote:
On May 04 2010 07:47 Senx wrote: I agree, royalties is FINE, but let them create the surrounding scene on their own, don't control their every action like Blizzard seems to be wanting to do.
I don't think they want to control every action but they do want to have the final say on things. If KeSPA wants to have minors working 70+ hours a week in order for e-Sports to succeed then Blizzard wants to be able to say "No, you're not going to use my game for an industry like that."
It's this kind of rhetoric that drives these discussions way out of hand. Blizzard is the white knight, caring so much about making a great game for the fans and all of that and just wanting a piece of their pie; while KeSPA is the corrupt Asian sweatshop owner which keeps people as slaves. And we hold this attitude why? Because Blizzard does things here and there to please the fans (read: get you to buy their next product as well)? I'd like to think that someone as intelligent as you could see through this, Nony..
Sorry I'm not trying to use rhetoric to convince people to take one side or the other. But all bias aside, it is perfectly reasonable to think that Blizzard cares about business ethics. Senx was asking why Blizzard isn't satisfied with just the royalties -- why do they also want control? Yeah, control is definitely, at least, for financial reasons too. But it could also be for Blizzard to take responsibility for their products. Anyway, my example is a fact and it's not distorted. I'm sure Blizzard is aware of it and I'm sure they know that if they directly profit from KeSPA's operation then they are responsible for it as well.
I'll take your word for it as far as your example goes (seeing as you do have some firsthand experience I'm sure), but I still find the idea of Blizzard being at all honest in the same regard to be a bit suspect. I too think it's reasonable that blizzard cares about business ethics, but only to the point where making money meets illegality. I should only have to mention 'Vivendi' to make things clear on that...
As far as control over the eSport goes, I think it's been too many years wherein Blizzard didn't take responsibility for their product to believe they legitimately care about it now. It's much more reasonable that they're using SC2's potential success as weight in all this. The problem is, Korean eSports as a whole aren't exactly as gung-ho about SC2 as the foreign community is.
On May 04 2010 08:49 hystorm wrote: i think blizzard is just throwing up a smoke screen and hoping that kespa will cave in or give up. if blizzard was serious about their IP, they would go to court like they always do.
On May 04 2010 08:49 hystorm wrote: i think blizzard is just throwing up a smoke screen and hoping that kespa will cave in or give up. if blizzard was serious about their IP, they would go to court like they always do.
Could you use an analogy of what came first the game of american football or the NFL? Esports or Starcraft? I don't think were paying the guy who invented an american football any royalties for every game being played other than what the football costs. Thats how I see it anyways - I guess it might be out of line when considering a video game.
Seems to me that KeSPA are the good guys for once. Not only because they say so, but because Blizzard is getting crazier every day. Some guys said or implied that you basically can't go wrong trusting Blizzard. Imho the exact opposite is the case.
Considering Blizzard's development over the last few years, or more accurately, since the release of WoW, trusting Blizzard is as wrong as you can go. They have changed from a trustworthy company with the players' interests at heart to a company interested in nothing but money, power/influence/control & milking their loyal customers.
If there's one thing that's 100% for sure, it's that if Blizzard does something - anything - you can bet your ass it's all about making money. I'm with KeSPA on this one. GTFO Blizzard and milk someone else. Or even better, stop milking people at all, cause seriously guys, you're making enough money as it is.
Funny how KeSPA tried to soften the fact that they refused to pay Blizzard a penny by saying they offered Blizzard promotional and marketing opportunities. How the fuck would that be a valid offer? KeSPA existence totally relies on Blizzard's products and even if Blizzard didn't have that "offer" from KeSPA, they would still receive the spotlight anyway as they were fucking playing Blizzard's games!
You can't just use your dependence on someone as a promotional offer to them, it's just too stupid to even say it outloud.
On May 04 2010 07:46 redtooth wrote: i'm actually surprised at the number of people taking kespa's side. just try to remember a time you've heard kespa's name associated with a positive act? they are just a bunch of greedy bureaucratic idiots who are trying their best to stay alive with SC2 looming around the corner.
Of course they have plenty of flaws, but the one thing they did right is actually keep E-sports running.
they almost killed proleague. they did kill one of the 3 individual leagues. they almost forced the superstar player of the time (the Dong) to retire.
did they really "keep E-sports" running? i think ESPORTS was fine before i heard of kespa. lol does forcing individuals to type exactly "gg" keep ESPORTS running?
gespa.
I don't even understand why posts like this exist. Do you even have any remote idea of what you're talking about? Esports might have been fine before you heard of KeSPA, but - and I know this is going to come as a surprise to you - reality still exists even if you aren't aware of it. There were no Esports pre-KeSPA. The same movers behind KeSPA itself were the ones who started the scene (and basically Esports itself) in the first place.
The Korean SC scene is still by and large the only true 'success' Esports have had. A very select few WC3 and CS players making okay money is the only remote argument - and neither of those is anywhere near as sustainable as SC in Korea is. Everyone is so willing to see SC die, it seems. There's this notion that SC2 will replace it, but in reality I still enjoy SC as much as I did when I started consistently watching pro games 5 years ago, and 5 years before that when the game was still fresh on everyone's minds. There's nothing preventing the game from lasting as long as Go, chess, etc... because with community involvement, it is that good of a game.
On May 04 2010 08:01 Liquid`NonY wrote:
On May 04 2010 07:47 Senx wrote: I agree, royalties is FINE, but let them create the surrounding scene on their own, don't control their every action like Blizzard seems to be wanting to do.
I don't think they want to control every action but they do want to have the final say on things. If KeSPA wants to have minors working 70+ hours a week in order for e-Sports to succeed then Blizzard wants to be able to say "No, you're not going to use my game for an industry like that."
It's this kind of rhetoric that drives these discussions way out of hand. Blizzard is the white knight, caring so much about making a great game for the fans and all of that and just wanting a piece of their pie; while KeSPA is the corrupt Asian sweatshop owner which keeps people as slaves. And we hold this attitude why? Because Blizzard does things here and there to please the fans (read: get you to buy their next product as well)? I'd like to think that someone as intelligent as you could see through this, Nony..
Sorry I'm not trying to use rhetoric to convince people to take one side or the other. But all bias aside, it is perfectly reasonable to think that Blizzard cares about business ethics. Senx was asking why Blizzard isn't satisfied with just the royalties -- why do they also want control? Yeah, control is definitely, at least, for financial reasons too. But it could also be for Blizzard to take responsibility for their products. Anyway, my example is a fact and it's not distorted. I'm sure Blizzard is aware of it and I'm sure they know that if they directly profit from KeSPA's operation then they are responsible for it as well.
*disclaimer: I rarely post about things like this*
When you say that they don't want to be responsible for child labor it makes sense. Also explains why they decided to push the issue till now because back then pro gamers were older than they are now. This kind of reminds me of the argument of how violent games such as CounterStrike cause kids to be more violent. Some people have said that playing FPS gives kids thoughts about killing or whatever. But you don't see companies caring about that at all.
However Blizzard could very much care about how things are in Korea (and they probably do, I consider Blizzard to be unique compared to other gaming companies. After all didn't they release some person's info about some drug guy or killer that was playing WoW to the cops?) The question is, and really only Blizzard can answer this, is it about the money or is it more of how E-Sports is running and Korea and other stuff not pertaining to money?
*edit Doesn't holding tournaments usually end up about getting some sort of profit? What's the difference between a tourney and like proleague stuff? (To me proleague is basically an elongated tournament)
If it is indeed the case that according to Korean law Blizzard cannot claim secondary content then Blizzard's demands have indeed been unreasonable. If this goes to court Blizzard has no chance to win.
On May 04 2010 08:56 Mooncat wrote: Seems to me that KeSPA are the good guys for once. Not only because they say so, but because Blizzard is getting crazier every day. Some guys said or implied that you basically can't go wrong trusting Blizzard. Imho the exact opposite is the case.
It seems like people forget that Blizzard is no longer the small studio it was 20 years ago, it's now part of the uber conglomerate activision, who I suspect has a part in blizzard's difficult negotiations.
No this is called a license to use their software in the real world. It's not a takeover and they are asking for royalties and a few other items in compensation on a per year basis. KeSPA doesn't want to open their books for whatever reasons each year and be honest about how well or poorly they are doing.
It's not Blizzard's problem that KeSPA wouldn't accept the terms of the license and now all of a sudden KeSPA feels all the "hard work" they have done without a license has put them in a position of getting screwed. Maybe if they bought a clue with all the money they've made without a license a few years ago they wouldn't be in the boat they are in and I'd sympathize.
Errr, its not the royalties thats the problem, even kespa would likely find it not too unreasonable for blizzard to want to collect royalties of a reasonable amount. The problem is giving blizzard decision-making power on the way things are run in Korean esports. With essentially veto-power over every single aspect of the way kespa does things in regards to starcraft, Blizzard would be taking over kespa in a way.
Main thing IMO though is the way things are being done. It isn't giving kespa any sort of movement space or way to back down gracefully. And, as many people know, people in East Asia don't particularly like losing face in that way, or at all. At this rate its virtually guaranteed that no agreement will be found unless any one of the two or both sides eat some humble pie and act reasonably. Kespa can either live with it or in a final act poison it so SC2 will never succeed as an esport as a final act of revenge. People need to remember that American business practices and manners aren't completely the same in Korea. Just my thoughts.
I still don't see the "takeover" part after reading this. Blizzard just wants to know who they are getting in bed with. It's sorta important to know who the investor's are or that guy that smuggles guns but needs a shelter to turn the money into something more legit. It's a partnership at the end of the day. I don't see anything shady coming from Blizzard but KeSPA sure acts like they have stuff to hide.
On May 04 2010 09:01 iloahz wrote: If it is indeed the case that according to Korean law Blizzard cannot claim secondary content then Blizzard's demands have indeed been unreasonable. If this goes to court Blizzard has no chance to win.
Blizzard doesn't have to go to court. There isn't a LAN feature. So KeSPA would have to modify the game to be able to continue their operations cause nobody cares about broodbore. If they did that then Blizzard would definitely have the upper hand with TRIPS laws in international court.
On May 04 2010 07:47 Ian Ian Ian wrote: I think it seems reasonable that Kespa pay blizzard. It kind of seems like they are just trying to benefit from blizzard's hard work for free. Which is ridiculous..
And from a legal standpoint, I don't see how kespa can really do anything.
Yo, we have the same name.
Anyway, I think that Blizzard just wants to take up the position of Kespa in general, that's the only way they'll make any money off of the 6 year development journey of SC 2. Personally, I'm fine with the idea because the developer involvement will mean a better over-all game for all it's users, and the competitive scene. They've already tried to ensure this by having 2 more expansions, but being in charge of the competitive scene is the best way.
No this is called a license to use their software in the real world. It's not a takeover and they are asking for royalties and a few other items in compensation on a per year basis. KeSPA doesn't want to open their books for whatever reasons each year and be honest about how well or poorly they are doing.
It's not Blizzard's problem that KeSPA wouldn't accept the terms of the license and now all of a sudden KeSPA feels all the "hard work" they have done without a license has put them in a position of getting screwed. Maybe if they bought a clue with all the money they've made without a license a few years ago they wouldn't be in the boat they are in and I'd sympathize.
Errr, its not the royalties thats the problem, even kespa would likely find it not too unreasonable for blizzard to want to collect royalties of a reasonable amount. The problem is giving blizzard decision-making power on the way things are run in Korean esports. With essentially veto-power over every single aspect of the way kespa does things in regards to starcraft, Blizzard would be taking over kespa in a way.
Main thing IMO though is the way things are being done. It isn't giving kespa any sort of movement space or way to back down gracefully. And, as many people know, people in East Asia don't particularly like losing face in that way, or at all. At this rate its virtually guaranteed that no agreement will be found unless any one of the two or both sides eat some humble pie and act reasonably. Kespa can either live with it or in a final act poison it so SC2 will never succeed as an esport as a final act of revenge. People need to remember that American business practices and manners aren't completely the same in Korea. Just my thoughts.
I still don't see the "takeover" part after reading this. Blizzard just wants to know who they are getting in bed with. It's sorta important to know who the investor's are or that guy that smuggles guns but needs a shelter to turn the money into something more legit. It's a partnership at the end of the day. I don't see anything shady coming from Blizzard but KeSPA sure acts like they have stuff to hide.
Agreed! I think a lot of the counter arguments here though are coming from people who don't follow the Capitalistic nature of American ventures, and as such are arguing from their own points of view. From an American PoV, everything Blizzard is doing is basically what any huge company would due prior to a massive 'engagement' of this level because it becomes responsible for the actions of it's partner.
On May 04 2010 09:01 iloahz wrote: If it is indeed the case that according to Korean law Blizzard cannot claim secondary content then Blizzard's demands have indeed been unreasonable. If this goes to court Blizzard has no chance to win.
Blizzard doesn't have to go to court. There isn't a LAN feature. So KeSPA would have to modify the game to be able to continue their operations cause nobody cares about broodbore. If they did that then Blizzard would definitely have the upper hand with TRIPS laws in international court.
You want to act qualified enough to comment on an issue as in-depth and heated as this, and yet you say 'nobody cares about broodbore'? Are you trolling or just clueless?
The victimhood approach is pretty much what we were all expecting from KeSPA, but it's not unwarranted, they actually do a good job spinning the facts on this. I don't think either Blizzard or KeSPA has any illusions about the billions of **ESPORTS dollars** that are at stake with SC2, so Blizzard was likely intentionally harsh in their demands. As one person said, it's a smoke screen.
What will probably end up happening is that Blizzard will agree to royalties once they realize that KeSPA's monopoly on e-sports in the region can't be broken. I assume they were originally banking on some of the senior board members like CJ Media splintering off to maximize the royalty revenue and control of leagues by forming multiple partnerships, but KeSPA's response seems to indicate that they're unified in their stance. Then KeSPA will continue to host leagues as usual and Blizzard will have this sweet deal where you can watch live and on-demand KeSPA league games right from your Battle.net client. At least, that's what I'd want to happen =(
i dont get how kespa can win this fight. would it really be that hard for Blizzard to create their own league in Korea? I mean unless a judge makes a monumental ruling, then blizzard has all the cards and the players will join them, leaving kespa with nothing. I have nothing against Kespa, and I dont think Blizzard should have SO many rights, but right now they do. So in a way I hope kespa wins this so that esports isnt stiffled
On May 04 2010 09:25 Geoube wrote: i dont get how kespa can win this fight. would it really be that hard for Blizzard to create their own league in Korea? I mean unless a judge makes a monumental ruling, then blizzard has all the cards and the players will join them, leaving kespa with nothing. I have nothing against Kespa, and I dont think Blizzard should have SO many rights, but right now they do. So in a way I hope kespa wins this so that esports isnt stiffled
How will esports be stiffed because Blizzard has a say in what goes on in the tournaments (even if it's run by itself or a designated one -aka GoMTV? Anyone?) Where was the flaws in that? I don't think Blizzard getting involved is a bad thing at all, since it won't likely do anything "zomgwrong" since any such act would likely affect it's own profits as well as KeSPA or whichever organization walks away with the Blizzard backing from this. I think people who are making Blizzard out to be "badguys" here don't realize that Blizzard has nothing to GAIN by being a bad guy, they just want to make sure they can be held accountable for the actions that their korean partners make, and without some sort of say in the upper management, they can get into big trouble, even if it's just public relations wise if they are later targetted by the media as "supporting" KeSPA if KeSPA later does things that are seen as "bad" or "immoral" (not that we have any reason to believe KeSPA will do this, it's just a fail safe).
If Blizzard releases the game in South Korea do they have to adhere to South Korea's business laws or since they are an American company do American laws apply? Assuming courts were fair I am curious as to who actually has the legal power here.
On May 04 2010 09:25 Geoube wrote: i dont get how kespa can win this fight. would it really be that hard for Blizzard to create their own league in Korea? I mean unless a judge makes a monumental ruling, then blizzard has all the cards and the players will join them, leaving kespa with nothing. I have nothing against Kespa, and I dont think Blizzard should have SO many rights, but right now they do. So in a way I hope kespa wins this so that esports isnt stiffled
I explained this in an earlier post, but by making such a huge power play, Blizzard is pissing off all the people actually involved in putting together an e-sports league. How are they going to get sponsors and TV channels over to their side when they're giving them such a worse deal than KeSPA is.
The one strategy Blizzard could succeed with is offering a better deal to the actual players, but I question whether they'd really do something that smart.
For about the past decade, Blizzard has put very little resources into Starcraft. They have fundamentally left the game to the community. KeSPA became the leading figure in the community and assumed the power it was left with in the vacuum that was left by Blizzard essentially shrugging its shoulders and saying "Starcraft is a completed game."
So KeSPA got more and more powerful as the teams realized they needed some kind of unifying body. That's not to say that KeSPA is an entirely honest organization, but that they are fundamentally more of a necessity for e-sports to function than most TL.netters give credit to. TLnet has a fundamentally negative view of KeSPA. We think of GOM being canceled, of Flash's game being forfeited, of players being disqualified for saying "pp" instead of "ppp." But the reality is that e-sports functions much more smoothly and with much less corruption with them in power than it used to before.
But now Blizzard has their new hot tamale on the runway and realizes it's missing it on a big piece of pie. But KeSPA's thinking "this is our pie."
On May 04 2010 09:30 Kazeyonoma wrote: I think people who are making Blizzard out to be "badguys" here don't realize that Blizzard has nothing to GAIN by being a bad guy, they just want to make sure they can be held accountable for the actions that their korean partners make, and without some sort of say in the upper management, they can get into big trouble, even if it's just public relations wise if they are later targetted by the media as "supporting" KeSPA if KeSPA later does things that are seen as "bad" or "immoral" (not that we have any reason to believe KeSPA will do this, it's just a fail safe).
Exactly this... imagine if a scandal happens, something along the lines of ''young korean dies because of inhuman practice schedules''
Blizzard would be in deep trouble because they're located in America and they will take some flak over here.
I'd really love to see KeSPA continue to broadcast SC like it currently is, but if Blizzard is legally allowed to do that(which I assume they are if they are even going there) then KeSPA is in a really tight position. I don't see Blizzard letting up on this easily.
I call BS!! Kespa needs Blizzard, Blizzard does not need Kespa. Kespa trying to sell the broadcasting rights to something that isn't their property probably just the king of thing that pissed Blizzard off! Kespa is just a parasite imo, and Blizzard most likely doesn't like how they have handled themselves. There have been too many scandals, to many back room deals and too much secrecy with them. Too many times it has taken months for the light to be shed on shady happenings because Kespa does everything it can to sweep its dirt under the rug! I for one am glad Blizzard is serving them some humble pie! Kespa obviously isn't capable of running esports in a clean and fair way, so of course kespa doesn't want anyone looking over their shoulders. I bet Blizzard is wondering how an organization, who's made so much money off a product that isn't even theirs, gets off thinking that now they have some ownership of it or some right to dictate it's future. There arrogance will be their demise. Blizzard should simply shut them down and deny them any rights to starcraft whatsoever. Does anyone really think kespa has any leg to stand on? Starcraft is Blizzards creation and therefore it is their right and theirs alone to profit from it! E-Sports doesn't need kespa, gaming and esports is going to continue to grow worldwide with or without them. People who somehow think a void will open up in the world of gaming if they disappear are simply oblivious of all the other more respectable e-sports organizations out there. Kespa's place in E-sports will be filled faster than a 4-pool!
I'm not a computer expert so I don't know if there a way around it, but since SC2 is routed threw the new B.net. Doesn't that mean Kespa can't really do shit, but stamp there feet? With BW Kespa could just buy a copy, set up a lan, and tell Blizzard to fuck off and go threw the korean courts. With sc2 can't blizzard just shut them out threw B.net?
Furthermore, Blizzard made other unreasonable requests beyond the rights of the copyright holder, such as royalties and sub-licensing fees on sponsorships and broadcasting fees, the right to audit KeSPA’s finances, as well as ownership of secondary content created through our unique resources in the teams, players, and broadcasting expertise.
I think this is also within their rights to own content that is derived from their base work. It wouldn't exist without them. I don't think these are "beyond the rights of the copyright holder" like Kespa claims. Of course copyright law varies by country so it's difficult to say, and they aren't being specific about what kind of secondary content it is.
My guess is it just comes down to dollars and cents at the end of the day, like almost everything in this world. We don't know what kind of royalty fees they are asking and things like that.
Other than the 1 year broadcasting term, nothing to me seems absurd in their demands.
Eh, I wouldn't be so quick to say "yeah Blizzard owns all that secondary content, gogo Blizzard!" I mean, consider Spore. You have thousands of creative people making all sorts of stuff and uploading it using Spore's editors. Yet none of those content creators, or players, actually own the art they are creating. In most cases this isn't a tragedy (I mean most people suck at creating things), but considering that most art and content is derivative somehow it makes me question secondary ownership rights in general.
That said, the actual legality of all this is going to be mostly concerning technical details most of us know nothing whatsoever about.
Still it sounds to me like KESPA is barking but doesn't really have enough bite to bring Blizzard back to the table.
[edit] holy crud, is that the same Day[9] who's always so happy telling people about starcraft awesomeness through the interwebs? That was scay. O.O
On May 04 2010 09:49 Day[9] wrote: rot in hell KeSPA. Seriously, I hope KeSPA tanks with the release of SC2. I absolutely despise KeSPA.
I used to, but if kespa's statement is proven true, i equally despise blizzard. rot in hell KeSPA. I hope blizzard tanks with the release of SC2. I absolutely despise blizzard.
On May 04 2010 07:30 Waxangel wrote: ...In addition, Blizzard requests that all aspects of league management would have be authorized by them beforehand, including the acquiring of sponsorships, marketing planning and broadcast planning. Furthermore, Blizzard made other unreasonable requests beyond the rights of the copyright holder, such as royalties and sub-licensing fees on sponsorships and broadcasting fees, the right to audit KeSPA’s finances, as well as ownership of secondary content created through our unique resources in the teams, players, and broadcasting expertise.
OOOOOOOOkay. Now this is just ridiculous. You guys DO realize that if KeSPA goes along with THESE terms, eSPORTS as we know it now is completely gone.
Forget all of your past hating on KeSPA for "ppp" or other faggot rules. If Blizzard especially acqires "all aspects" of league management, the pro-scene in Korea is fucking dead.
On May 04 2010 09:25 Geoube wrote: i dont get how kespa can win this fight. would it really be that hard for Blizzard to create their own league in Korea? I mean unless a judge makes a monumental ruling, then blizzard has all the cards and the players will join them, leaving kespa with nothing. I have nothing against Kespa, and I dont think Blizzard should have SO many rights, but right now they do. So in a way I hope kespa wins this so that esports isnt stiffled
I don't think Blizzard has any intention of making the investments required to run their own leagues. They want to sublet the whole thing, which is understandable -- they're only game developers (what's less justifiable is that they nonetheless want to control the scene).
So Blizzard needs broadcasters and sponsored players. They did find the former with GOMTV, but they never found the latter since GOMTV was basically leeching off of KeSPA. And if Blizzard isn't going to start running leagues, they sure as hell aren't going to start running a bunch of teams.
On May 04 2010 09:34 zealing wrote: id go with Blizz, never forgive kespa for ppp >
That's called making perfect the enemy of the good. You're willing to trade an imperfect reality -- professional Starcraft, the only proscene in the world -- for a Blizzard-run fantasy.
On May 04 2010 09:49 Day[9] wrote: rot in hell KeSPA. Seriously, I hope KeSPA tanks with the release of SC2. I absolutely despise KeSPA.
Yeah, rot in hell OGN, MBC and all the teams that brought us our regular pro SC for years!
On May 04 2010 09:01 iloahz wrote: If it is indeed the case that according to Korean law Blizzard cannot claim secondary content then Blizzard's demands have indeed been unreasonable. If this goes to court Blizzard has no chance to win.
Blizzard doesn't have to go to court. There isn't a LAN feature. So KeSPA would have to modify the game to be able to continue their operations cause nobody cares about broodbore. If they did that then Blizzard would definitely have the upper hand with TRIPS laws in international court.
Kespas response would be an complete censorship on Starcraft2. Effectively taking Blizzard down with them.
On May 04 2010 09:25 Geoube wrote: i dont get how kespa can win this fight. would it really be that hard for Blizzard to create their own league in Korea? I mean unless a judge makes a monumental ruling, then blizzard has all the cards and the players will join them, leaving kespa with nothing. I have nothing against Kespa, and I dont think Blizzard should have SO many rights, but right now they do. So in a way I hope kespa wins this so that esports isnt stiffled
Who'll pay the players? The main sponsors are lined up with Kespa. Then the Korean Government will give some bullshit that esports leagues have to be approved by the ministry of culture or w/e and they'll be able to block it.
On May 04 2010 09:30 Mallard wrote: If Blizzard releases the game in South Korea do they have to adhere to South Korea's business laws or since they are an American company do American laws apply? Assuming courts were fair I am curious as to who actually has the legal power here.
Of course they have to follow Korean law. Extraterritoriality only applies to military personnels nowadays.
On May 04 2010 09:49 Day[9] wrote: rot in hell KeSPA. Seriously, I hope KeSPA tanks with the release of SC2. I absolutely despise KeSPA.
So you seriously believe a e-sport scene will exist in korea without kespa ( ie the ruleset, teams, players, sponsors, tv channels) ?
It makes me sad when people just dismiss kespa as a organization e-sport in SKorea doesn't actually need, beacuse they do..despite their wrong decisions throughout the years.
Don't come here and tell me that Blizzard will magicly manage to create a separate SC2 scene to coexist with the current SC:BW scene in SKorea.
It's either up to Kespa or we'll have a very small and lackluster SC2 scene or in worst case, no real sc2 pro scene at all.
On May 04 2010 07:30 Waxangel wrote: ...In addition, Blizzard requests that all aspects of league management would have be authorized by them beforehand, including the acquiring of sponsorships, marketing planning and broadcast planning. Furthermore, Blizzard made other unreasonable requests beyond the rights of the copyright holder, such as royalties and sub-licensing fees on sponsorships and broadcasting fees, the right to audit KeSPA’s finances, as well as ownership of secondary content created through our unique resources in the teams, players, and broadcasting expertise.
OOOOOOOOkay. Now this is just ridiculous. You guys DO realize that if KeSPA goes along with THESE terms, eSPORTS as we know it now is completely gone.
Forget all of your past hating on KeSPA for "ppp" or other faggot rules. If Blizzard especially acqires "all aspects" of league management, the pro-scene in Korea is fucking dead.
Fucking dead.
What? It would just have to be authorized by them, they wouldn't be changing anything about it, jeez.
It's pretty clear to me that Korea's laws on Blizzard's intellectual property rights are hazy. What I dislike is the reason it is hazy, which is because the Korean government is influenced by it's large corporations, and is siding with them to make the laws in their favor.
KeSPA killed GOM because blizzard sponsored them. I loved GOM. KeSPA may have a lot of influence in businesses in Korea but guess what, the person who has the final say is Blizzard because they are starcraft at its most basic level. Sure, KeSPA, you can take down someone bigger and more powerful then you when you gang up on him with all you friends, but when that guy finds your house and burns it down you have no one to blame but yourself.
Best KeSPA can do is give in to the completely ridiculous demands and attempt to salvage their organization as best they can. It is either that or the death of the pro scene.
Blizzard's take on this is retarded. Should I have to pay Milton Bradley money every time I hold a chess tournament with their pieces? Fucking retarded.
On May 04 2010 09:49 Day[9] wrote: rot in hell KeSPA. Seriously, I hope KeSPA tanks with the release of SC2. I absolutely despise KeSPA.
So you seriously believe a e-sport scene will exist in korea without kespa ( ie the ruleset, teams, players, sponsors, tv channels) ?
It makes me sad when people just dismiss kespa as a organization e-sport in SKorea doesn't actually need, beacuse they do..despite their wrong decisions throughout the years.
Don't come here and tell me that Blizzard will magicly manage to create a separate SC2 scene to coexist with the current SC:BW scene in SKorea.
It's either up to Kespa or we'll have a very small and lackluster SC2 scene or in worst case, no real sc2 pro scene at all.
Blizzard won't magically create a separate SC2 scene, we will. Power to the players. Kespa isn't the reason behind the success of SC in Korea - that honor goes to the players, the sponsors and the broadcasting services.
On May 04 2010 10:14 Kimaker wrote: Blizzard's take on this is retarded. Should I have to pay Milton Bradley money every time I hold a chess tournament with their pieces? Fucking retarded.
That comparison is in no way the same thing.
When Kespa pretty much strong armed GOMTV into shutting down I no longer had any respect for them.
On May 04 2010 10:14 Kimaker wrote: Blizzard's take on this is retarded. Should I have to pay Milton Bradley money every time I hold a chess tournament with their pieces? Fucking retarded.
If you're doing it at a level where you make money because of sponsorships and advertisement money, then yes. The problem with your example though is that Chess, as far as I know, has no distinct IP owner, it predates any type of copyright laws, and therefore exists outside of it. At least use a realistic example next time.
On May 04 2010 10:13 Xinliben wrote: Best KeSPA can do is give in to the completely ridiculous demands and attempt to salvage their organization as best they can. It is either that or the death of the pro scene.
I don't see why it'd be the death of the progamer scene. What happened, then, before KeSPA? If KeSPA is unwilling to capitulate (And say for the sake of argument that if they don't they will assuredly dissolve), there will be others who are willing to pick up the pieces and start anew.
On May 04 2010 07:30 Waxangel wrote: ...In addition, Blizzard requests that all aspects of league management would have be authorized by them beforehand, including the acquiring of sponsorships, marketing planning and broadcast planning. Furthermore, Blizzard made other unreasonable requests beyond the rights of the copyright holder, such as royalties and sub-licensing fees on sponsorships and broadcasting fees, the right to audit KeSPA’s finances, as well as ownership of secondary content created through our unique resources in the teams, players, and broadcasting expertise.
OOOOOOOOkay. Now this is just ridiculous. You guys DO realize that if KeSPA goes along with THESE terms, eSPORTS as we know it now is completely gone.
Forget all of your past hating on KeSPA for "ppp" or other faggot rules. If Blizzard especially acqires "all aspects" of league management, the pro-scene in Korea is fucking dead.
Fucking dead.
What? It would just have to be authorized by them, they wouldn't be changing anything about it, jeez.
It's not really as simple as that. Effiency of running tournaments would be completely ruined. The MSL and OSL in Korea are run pretty efficiently - we have about 2-3 of each major tourney every year. Think about how fewer of these tournaments we'd have if Blizzard became the medium through which these tournaments were monitered.
Does Blizzard really need to be involved in the fucking MARKET PLANNING and BROADCAST PLANNING?
Blizzard definitely has IP rights, but the problem is the extent to which they want to exercise it.
On May 04 2010 10:07 datscilly wrote: It's pretty clear to me that Korea's laws on Blizzard's intellectual property rights are hazy. What I dislike is the reason it is hazy, which is because the Korean government is influenced by it's large corporations, and is siding with them to make the laws in their favor.
There are very, very few countries in the world that do not operate like this to some extent, with the US one of the worst offenders considering it's presence on the world stage.
On May 04 2010 07:50 Slow Motion wrote: You know what Kespa is probably most scared of? The auditing of their books. I'd love for Blizzard to audit their asses and see what shit turns up, corrupt bastards that they are.
Well, KesPA is corrupted bastard, that is so true. But many Koreans do not like the part that being audited by someone else, and blame Blizzard about it. It is their costom or culture. I am not saying Koreans love KesPA (in fact they hate them), but they are saying Blizz went too far.
what does the general public know about these things? be they korean or american?
point: i don't care that koreans are saying blizz went too far
On May 04 2010 07:30 Waxangel wrote: ...In addition, Blizzard requests that all aspects of league management would have be authorized by them beforehand, including the acquiring of sponsorships, marketing planning and broadcast planning. Furthermore, Blizzard made other unreasonable requests beyond the rights of the copyright holder, such as royalties and sub-licensing fees on sponsorships and broadcasting fees, the right to audit KeSPA’s finances, as well as ownership of secondary content created through our unique resources in the teams, players, and broadcasting expertise.
OOOOOOOOkay. Now this is just ridiculous. You guys DO realize that if KeSPA goes along with THESE terms, eSPORTS as we know it now is completely gone.
Forget all of your past hating on KeSPA for "ppp" or other faggot rules. If Blizzard especially acqires "all aspects" of league management, the pro-scene in Korea is fucking dead.
Fucking dead.
What? It would just have to be authorized by them, they wouldn't be changing anything about it, jeez.
It's not really as simple as that. Effiency of running tournaments would be completely ruined. The MSL and OSL in Korea are run pretty efficiently - we have about 2-3 of each major tourney every year. Think about how fewer of these tournaments we'd have if Blizzard became the medium through which these tournaments were monitered.
Does Blizzard really need to be involved in the fucking MARKET PLANNING and BROADCAST PLANNING?
Blizzard definitely has IP rights, but the problem is the extent to which they want to exercise it.
How exactly would it have to be slowed down? All Blizzard needs to do is have a team dedicated to the eSports scene that approves of all tournaments that happen, basically they'd be at every meeting that KeSPA currently has before it finances and gives the okay for the tournament, and says Yeah, okay, no slave labor here? no pornography ads? Gotcha, we're good. I don't see how having blizzard's hand in it to make sure they don't get screwed behind their backs is in anyway slowing it down. I think you've got some misunderstanding of what will happen. I don't see how adding the IP owner to each of the currently efficient tournaments would make them less efficient unless suddenly the Blizz approval people find out there's shady business happening in the back end that they need to stop, investigate, and postpone tournaments for in which case, blizz has every right to step in anyways.
On May 04 2010 10:14 Kimaker wrote: Blizzard's take on this is retarded. Should I have to pay Milton Bradley money every time I hold a chess tournament with their pieces? Fucking retarded.
whaaa? that's like saying you'd have to pay Lowe's or some lumber yard every time you rented out a house you built.
your analogy doesn't hold for intellectual property
On May 04 2010 09:49 Day[9] wrote: rot in hell KeSPA. Seriously, I hope KeSPA tanks with the release of SC2. I absolutely despise KeSPA.
So you seriously believe a e-sport scene will exist in korea without kespa ( ie the ruleset, teams, players, sponsors, tv channels) ?
It makes me sad when people just dismiss kespa as a organization e-sport in SKorea doesn't actually need, beacuse they do..despite their wrong decisions throughout the years.
Don't come here and tell me that Blizzard will magicly manage to create a separate SC2 scene to coexist with the current SC:BW scene in SKorea.
It's either up to Kespa or we'll have a very small and lackluster SC2 scene or in worst case, no real sc2 pro scene at all.
Blizzard won't magically create a separate SC2 scene, we will. Power to the players. Kespa isn't the reason behind the success of SC in Korea - that honor goes to the players, the sponsors and the broadcasting services.
Kespa represents the players, the sponsors and the broadcasting services..
On May 04 2010 09:49 Day[9] wrote: rot in hell KeSPA. Seriously, I hope KeSPA tanks with the release of SC2. I absolutely despise KeSPA.
So you seriously believe a e-sport scene will exist in korea without kespa ( ie the ruleset, teams, players, sponsors, tv channels) ?
It makes me sad when people just dismiss kespa as a organization e-sport in SKorea doesn't actually need, beacuse they do..despite their wrong decisions throughout the years.
Don't come here and tell me that Blizzard will magicly manage to create a separate SC2 scene to coexist with the current SC:BW scene in SKorea.
It's either up to Kespa or we'll have a very small and lackluster SC2 scene or in worst case, no real sc2 pro scene at all.
Blizzard won't magically create a separate SC2 scene, we will. Power to the players. Kespa isn't the reason behind the success of SC in Korea - that honor goes to the players, the sponsors and the broadcasting services.
Kespa represents the players, the sponsors and the broadcasting services..
It's quite terrible that in every one of the threads discussing KeSPA, maybe half the posters still don't understand what it is, so the thread gets clogged with absurd statements like that.
On May 04 2010 10:14 Kimaker wrote: Blizzard's take on this is retarded. Should I have to pay Milton Bradley money every time I hold a chess tournament with their pieces? Fucking retarded.
whaaa? that's like saying you'd have to pay Lowe's or some lumber yard every time you rented out a house you built.
your analogy doesn't hold for intellectual property
Thank you everyone for understanding that was sarcasm. I suppose I should have added something along the lines of "(sarcasm)", but really?
If this statement from Kespa is true, I think some of Blizzard's demands are completely unreasonable. It feels as if Blizzard now wants complete control of not only their game (which is reasonable), but the entire e-sports in general (unreasonable).
If Blizzard is allowed full control of this (which they are clearly leaning towards with no lan and everybody going through Bnet), they will want full control of ANY function with their game through BNet, and it won't be good for e-sports in general. I'm not understanding how "the players can simply start the SC2 e-sport scene without Kespa" when Blizzard controls whether you will do anything or not. I can't personally think of a successful e-sport that was run only through the company that made the game.
On May 04 2010 09:49 Day[9] wrote: rot in hell KeSPA. Seriously, I hope KeSPA tanks with the release of SC2. I absolutely despise KeSPA.
So you seriously believe a e-sport scene will exist in korea without kespa ( ie the ruleset, teams, players, sponsors, tv channels) ?
It makes me sad when people just dismiss kespa as a organization e-sport in SKorea doesn't actually need, beacuse they do..despite their wrong decisions throughout the years.
Don't come here and tell me that Blizzard will magicly manage to create a separate SC2 scene to coexist with the current SC:BW scene in SKorea.
It's either up to Kespa or we'll have a very small and lackluster SC2 scene or in worst case, no real sc2 pro scene at all.
Blizzard won't magically create a separate SC2 scene, we will. Power to the players. Kespa isn't the reason behind the success of SC in Korea - that honor goes to the players, the sponsors and the broadcasting services.
Kespa represents the players, the sponsors and the broadcasting services..
It's quite terrible that in every one of the threads discussing KeSPA, maybe half the posters still don't understand what it is.
Why do people think this is just about the money? Do you understand how much cold hard cash World of Warcraft produces??
No, this is about Blizzard protecting their game and protecting their image. if KeSPA decides to allow a team to be named after a political organization, or a strip club, or a business with ties to terrorism this will look bad on Blizzard. If KeSPA cooks the books and turns in a huge scandal, what do you think the headline will be? Starcraft Scandal. That's HUGE bad PR. It is their game. Its their 12 years of hard work. (or at least hard thinking for the first 9). Blizzard has every right to control every aspect of the scene that can hurt their image.
Everything else on the negotiating table is just fluff compared to this. Money is nice, but its a drop in the bucket compared to controlling the PR the E-sport creates.
1st of all kespa can't censor starcraft, if they tried they'd need a damn good reason other than "Blizzard won't let us use their product" South korea would have a revolt. lmao for you even suggesting that.
2nd You know who'll pay the players? Big companies who want their names plastered all over TV and the internet at a very reasonable price. I mean starcraft vods are almost viral in nature in how the proliferate across the internet whenever a good one is released!
Everyone thinking that kespa or korea are the end all say all to starcraft are retarded, they've been huge no denying that. but esports and pro-gaming are bigger than any one organization or country! SC2 is going to be the biggest game of all time, if kespa wants the privilege of profiting from it I suggest they wake up and realize they don't own any part of it and have to take whatever terms Blizzard offers. Or try to offer a mutually beneficial agreement such as okay blizzard we will give you a position on our board, allow you access to our records and respect you as the source of all of our paychecks in return you allow us to broadcast your game, make a ton of money from it and put our vods plastered with our sponsors names on Bnet.
Furthermore, I'm tired of people acting like the pro gamers make up kespa. I feel that many of these pro gamers get used in korea and when their skills fade they get tossed to the wind. Do you think these kids have a pension plan? They spend the prime of their lives 14 hours a day serving kespa, instead of going to school, finding love, starting families? You think the many kids who've gone through all this and never reached the top benefited as much as kespa? Do you really think the pro gamers get any say in what kespa does? Of all the videos I've seen it's very clear that the coaches and management own those kids and dictate their lives, if they don't obey they get thrown in the trash. Why else would you need a license to be a pro gamer? It's all about power control and profit! They eat when their told, sleep when their told, and game the rest of the time. Those gamers all talk about how their relationships with their friends and families suffer. Forget about getting laid, no time for that. I have a lot of respect for the actual gamers but kespa uses them, they are not kespa. Boxer has been saying for years how he wanted to form a players association so that they could have some say in things and have some rights, do you think they'll ever let that happen? Read Boxers book "crazy as me" it's very insightful. Fuck Kespa they stand on the shoulders of giants and proclaim their own greatness.
I think Blizzard has every right to make the requests, although it tones like demands, they have.
Blizzard is a big boy (NASDAQ:ATVI) now and is held accountable as such; I don't know if Kespa's revenue compares...
I wish that they could perhaps recognize what Blizzard is trying to do, maybe they are trying to get their hands deep enough to launch e-sports elsewhere.
I've always wondered what other elements were preventing Blizzard from just going in and buying up all the players...Surely this is a naive thought for some reason...
I'm interested in a more international scene, rather than just having Kespa and its focus on Korea. Hopefully if Kespa isn't involved we won't end up with one solid hub and instead have a complete international scene.
That's what I'm hoping comes out of all of this, anyway.
I really don't see what isn't 'Black and white' about this issue. Blizzard owns the game, Kespa owns the progaming teams, gets the broadcasting agreements and sponsors. Sure, Kespa has a lot of things going for it, but without the game, they have nothing. They're dealing with a monopoly- only Blizzard can give them SC2. Kespa needs Blizzard, Blizzard doesn't need Kespa- one side has a huge negotiating advantage over the other.
I suppose it sucks for Kespa that Blizzard is driving such a hard deal with them, but really, it's not like they have a say in the issue- it's Blizzard's way or the highway, and Kespa seems to have chosen the latter.
I suppose it sucks for Kespa that Blizzard is driving such a hard deal with them, but really, it's not like they have a say in the issue- it's Blizzard's way or the highway, and Kespa seems to have chosen the latter.
That's the point though, its not a hard deal. Its incredibly reasonable for blizzard to want to own any aspect of the system that can be used to harm their image.
On May 04 2010 10:39 Zato-1 wrote: I really don't see what isn't 'Black and white' about this issue. Blizzard owns the game, Kespa owns the progaming teams, gets the broadcasting agreements and sponsors. Sure, Kespa has a lot of things going for it, but without the game, they have nothing. They're dealing with a monopoly- only Blizzard can give them SC2. Kespa needs Blizzard, Blizzard doesn't need Kespa- one side has a huge negotiating advantage over the other.
I suppose it sucks for Kespa that Blizzard is driving such a hard deal with them, but really, it's not like they have a say in the issue- it's Blizzard's way or the highway, and Kespa seems to have chosen the latter.
I agree with this.
Can't just take someone's product, make profit off it, and claim the advertising you're proving is enough compensation.
I think everyone here agrees that Blizzard will not need the slightest of help to advertise Starcraft 2.
On May 04 2010 10:39 Zato-1 wrote: I really don't see what isn't 'Black and white' about this issue. Blizzard owns the game, Kespa owns the progaming teams, gets the broadcasting agreements and sponsors. Sure, Kespa has a lot of things going for it, but without the game, they have nothing. They're dealing with a monopoly- only Blizzard can give them SC2. Kespa needs Blizzard, Blizzard doesn't need Kespa- one side has a huge negotiating advantage over the other.
I suppose it sucks for Kespa that Blizzard is driving such a hard deal with them, but really, it's not like they have a say in the issue- it's Blizzard's way or the highway, and Kespa seems to have chosen the latter.
I think the whole point of the "black and white" comment is that it may very well in fact be KESPAS way or the highway. If Blizzard is shown to not have any rights to stop KESPA from profitting off of Starcraft or even Starcraft 2, there is nothing Blizzard can do about it. I'm not trying to take any sides here, but its very possible that korean law may not recognize blizzard's rights as able to prevent Kespa from using these games.
Blizzard E-Sports department is TERRIBLE. I used to be big into WoW ESports and I know on SEVERAL occasions, they have hurt tournaments more than help. On one occasion they actually shut down the server while a big tournament was underway. Another tournament they didn't give them a updated UI, so casters couldn't cast the matches.
On May 04 2010 10:39 Zato-1 wrote: I really don't see what isn't 'Black and white' about this issue. Blizzard owns the game, Kespa owns the progaming teams, gets the broadcasting agreements and sponsors. Sure, Kespa has a lot of things going for it, but without the game, they have nothing. They're dealing with a monopoly- only Blizzard can give them SC2. Kespa needs Blizzard, Blizzard doesn't need Kespa- one side has a huge negotiating advantage over the other.
I suppose it sucks for Kespa that Blizzard is driving such a hard deal with them, but really, it's not like they have a say in the issue- it's Blizzard's way or the highway, and Kespa seems to have chosen the latter.
I think the whole point of the "black and white" comment is that it may very well in fact be KESPAS way or the highway. If Blizzard is shown to not have any rights to stop KESPA from profitting off of Starcraft or even Starcraft 2, there is nothing Blizzard can do about it. I'm not trying to take any sides here, but its very possible that korean law may not recognize blizzard's rights as able to prevent Kespa from using these games.
No, that's not the way it works. If Kespa is making money out of their SC1 pro-scene without giving a dime to Blizzard for it, it's only because Blizzard's only option is to shut them down, and wouldn't that be a great PR stunt?
Kespa basically spit in Blizzard's face as far as the SC1 intellectual property rights are concerned, and now that's coming back to bite them in the ass because Blizzard won't accept anything less than total control over a possible Korean SC2 pro-scene managed by Kespa.
I don't see what the big argument here is about. Its two big companies fighting over money, ideals, and hopes. Regardless of what you think of Kespa they are running smooth, and *huge* esport leagues in their country. But some of you have posted saying they are the only example of a successful esports operation, and thats just flat out false. Some examples of other popular and successful esport operations are 1) Major League Gaming (MLG) 2) Electronic Sports League (ESL). MLG itself is pretty massive, and very successful, they have 16 paid pro teams on their Halo tour, and the top players are paid a ton of money, some of them making 50k+ a year. As proof of that claim: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsquared Tsquared makes anywhere between 120-200k a year from endorsements and prize money on the MLG tour. Not only is MLG hugely successful, they have switched their Halo game from halo 2 to halo 3, and will probably move again to the new Halo game after its been out for a while. As I remember seeing Boxer himself say in an interview "Pro-gamers should be a pro in all games, not just one." It shouldn't be a bad thing that players have to adapt to a new game, the Pro's should be able to do it better and faster than others anyway.
If Kespa just wants to use SC1 for the rest of time then so be it, blizzard has clearly set out on SC2 with being able to control how tournaments and leagues will use their product. They have probably done more to limit it just because of actions by Kespa. There will be plenty of other organizations that run SC2 tournaments around the world, SK isn't the whole gaming world they may have the highest skilled starcraft players but it can easily change if another region gets serious leagues and tournaments set up for SC2. I'd like to see the koreans play some halo against the best american players .
Also as for some of Blizzard demands (according to kespa), I doubt they seriously demanded all of that. At best they did fully expecting to back away from some in a compromise to try and get kespa to agree to more, thats how negotiating works.
On May 04 2010 10:47 Huko wrote: Blizzard E-Sports department is TERRIBLE. I used to be big into WoW ESports and I know on SEVERAL occasions, they have hurt tournaments more than help. On one occasion they actually shut down the server while a big tournament was underway. Another tournament they didn't give them a updated UI, so casters couldn't cast the matches.
Blizzard controlling esports... DO NOT WANT
I've seen a lot of people post something similar to this, I have also played wow since it came out. The simple fact of the matter is WoW was never intended to be an esport. They put in arenas and scrambled to add support for tournaments because there was demand for it. They have been scrambling since. The biggest problem is WoW makes most of its 'money' because people play it to kill monsters and get loot. They simply support arenas because a percentage of people want it, but its has never been the focus. The massive patches they do for Monster killing reasons sometimes mess with arenas and tournaments. This is simply not true for Starcraft 2, and I don't think there will be nearly as many problems. For one spectator functionality is built into the game from the start (like any other RTS) they still don't have true spectator support in WoW (simply not enough demand) so blizzard makes an addon for tournaments to be able to spectator with (and its buggy). On top of that blizzard knows Starcraft 2 can turn into a true massive esport, and they don't think that for WoW, wow changes too often and theres too many other variables.
On May 04 2010 09:49 Day[9] wrote: rot in hell KeSPA. Seriously, I hope KeSPA tanks with the release of SC2. I absolutely despise KeSPA.
So you seriously believe a e-sport scene will exist in korea without kespa ( ie the ruleset, teams, players, sponsors, tv channels) ?
It makes me sad when people just dismiss kespa as a organization e-sport in SKorea doesn't actually need, beacuse they do..despite their wrong decisions throughout the years.
Don't come here and tell me that Blizzard will magicly manage to create a separate SC2 scene to coexist with the current SC:BW scene in SKorea.
It's either up to Kespa or we'll have a very small and lackluster SC2 scene or in worst case, no real sc2 pro scene at all.
Blizzard won't magically create a separate SC2 scene, we will. Power to the players. Kespa isn't the reason behind the success of SC in Korea - that honor goes to the players, the sponsors and the broadcasting services.
Kespa represents the players, the sponsors and the broadcasting services..
It's quite terrible that in every one of the threads discussing KeSPA, maybe half the posters still don't understand what it is.
Yea I know isnt it annoying?
senx, I believe that comment was intended for you, not me. At least I hope so, coz stating that kespa represents the players (please note that there's a difference between what you say you do and what you actually do) is too much bull crap within one comment.
I am not a lawyer yet and don't specialize in copyright per se, but I was wondering anyone with knowledge would elaborate on whether this could be taken before WIPO or any other international court and whether they could arbitrate or rule on the issue if Blizzard decides to bring a cause of action. South Korea is a member of the WTO and also bound by TRIPS, although I am not an expert on TRIPS shouldn't this be common ground to find resolution to the dispute.
On May 04 2010 10:39 Zato-1 wrote: I really don't see what isn't 'Black and white' about this issue. Blizzard owns the game, Kespa owns the progaming teams, gets the broadcasting agreements and sponsors. Sure, Kespa has a lot of things going for it, but without the game, they have nothing. They're dealing with a monopoly- only Blizzard can give them SC2. Kespa needs Blizzard, Blizzard doesn't need Kespa- one side has a huge negotiating advantage over the other.
I suppose it sucks for Kespa that Blizzard is driving such a hard deal with them, but really, it's not like they have a say in the issue- it's Blizzard's way or the highway, and Kespa seems to have chosen the latter.
I think the whole point of the "black and white" comment is that it may very well in fact be KESPAS way or the highway. If Blizzard is shown to not have any rights to stop KESPA from profitting off of Starcraft or even Starcraft 2, there is nothing Blizzard can do about it. I'm not trying to take any sides here, but its very possible that korean law may not recognize blizzard's rights as able to prevent Kespa from using these games.
While I am no copyright lawyer so I can't say what goes and does not go in Korea copyright wise but it seems almost self explanatory that Blizzard should have these rights as why would they even push this line if they knew that they could not back it up legally? Second of all I really don't see why Blizzard would agree to release a game in a country where they cannot protect their IP rights and even if this is true for starcraft won't you think that Blizzard will make sure that they have all the legal rights to protect starcraft 2 before they release it? And if South Korean law/government refuse to acknowledge this then the game will simply not be released in South Korea at all.
On May 04 2010 09:49 Day[9] wrote: rot in hell KeSPA. Seriously, I hope KeSPA tanks with the release of SC2. I absolutely despise KeSPA.
So you seriously believe a e-sport scene will exist in korea without kespa ( ie the ruleset, teams, players, sponsors, tv channels) ?
It makes me sad when people just dismiss kespa as a organization e-sport in SKorea doesn't actually need, beacuse they do..despite their wrong decisions throughout the years.
Don't come here and tell me that Blizzard will magicly manage to create a separate SC2 scene to coexist with the current SC:BW scene in SKorea.
It's either up to Kespa or we'll have a very small and lackluster SC2 scene or in worst case, no real sc2 pro scene at all.
Blizzard won't magically create a separate SC2 scene, we will. Power to the players. Kespa isn't the reason behind the success of SC in Korea - that honor goes to the players, the sponsors and the broadcasting services.
Kespa represents the players, the sponsors and the broadcasting services..
It's quite terrible that in every one of the threads discussing KeSPA, maybe half the posters still don't understand what it is.
Yea I know isnt it annoying?
senx, I believe that comment was intended for you, not me. At least I hope so, coz stating that kespa represents the players is too much bull crap within one comment.
Each team have representatives in kespa, badly phrased by me i suppose.
Well being only a watcher for SC (I dont play the game even though I play another RTS), I think first of all SCII has to take over SC for the casual viewer and right now is far far away of that goal, I just enjoy so much korean pro league but i got bored as hell watching SCII tournaments streams, secondly you can dismissed the power of being backing by governments but you will be really wrong, and Kespa has that backup, The problem for Blizzard is that only one game in the world is really an e-sport and It is SC, so they are not sure about the future of SCII as an e-sport and the only way to develope that (minimizing risks) is in Korea, or you guys just pretend to develop e-sports without Korea, let me say dreaming is free.
Perhaps Blizzards response says it all, we don't need you, we won't negotiate with you for what is already ours, it's our copyright. You'll abide by our wishes on how our game is reproduced, broadcast, and profited from or you won't have anything to do with our game. Blizzards use of Bnet2 to maintain control is absolute, it shows you they have every ability to control their own products future. Kespa can whine all they want but they can't do anything. Blizzard can simply say "you don't respect our copyright, no bnet thus no starcraft for you!"
ohh the problems that arise when you mix an American game company w/ a Korean E-Sports Progaming Association =\
as much as i want to take Blizzard's side on this, KeSPA does go by a different set of laws than Americans, so i'll just have to wait for bliazzard's response before i come to any conclusions.
On May 04 2010 11:06 Reborn8u wrote: Perhaps Blizzards response says it all, we don't need you, we won't negotiate with you for what is already ours, it's our copyright. You'll abide by our wishes on how our game is reproduced, broadcast, and profited from or you won't have anything to do with our game. Blizzards use of Bnet2 to maintain control is absolute, it shows you they have every ability to control their own products future. Kespa can whine all they want but they can't do anything. Blizzard can simply say "you don't respect our copyright, no bnet thus no starcraft for you!"
Yeah but that would be lying from Blizzards part, see what the korean e-sport scene did to Broodwar. They need and want SC2 to be an esport success in korea wether they want to admit that or not.
Sounds like Blizzard attempted to remove Kespa from the picture. Bliz's demands sound sort of silly considering the infrastructure KESPA already has in place and ahving a problem with 1yr contracts is understandable.
It seems to me that both Blizzard and Kespa's opening positions are a bit extreme, kinda like each side is hoping to compromise. And then at least one side is refusing to compromise.
In any case, I think I may have a good solution. 1. Sack Kespa. 2. Give Boxer a bunch of money and tell him to get hiring. 3. Profit.
While your first response may be "yes, ofc Blizzard has CP rights, it made the game!!", looking at it from a copyright perspective (I'm not a copyright lawyer so don't quote me), Blizzard may not have rights to secondary user generated content, even if they specify this in their licensing agreements.
For example, does the person who invented baseball have rights to ticket proceeds of every single baseball game ever played? A few years ago there was a movie about people doing NY Times crossword puzzles, does the NYT have rights to proceeds from that movie because it depicted people playing their game?
Its not a black and white issue at all and will probably be litigated at some point, and if I had to go with my gut, I'd say its pretty close to swinging either way, at least with a US court.
On May 04 2010 11:14 Hot_Bid wrote: While your first response may be "yes, ofc Blizzard has CP rights, it made the game!!", looking at it from a copyright perspective (I'm not a copyright lawyer so don't quote me), Blizzard may not have rights to secondary user generated content, even if they specify this in their licensing agreements.
For example, does the person who invented baseball have rights to ticket proceeds of every single baseball game ever played? A few years ago there was a movie about people doing NY Times crossword puzzles, does the NYT have rights to proceeds from that movie because it depicted people playing their game?
Its not a black and white issue at all and will probably be litigated at some point, and if I had to go with my gut, I'd say its pretty close to swinging either way, at least with a US court.
i am almost certain blizzard has the actual intellectual property rights to what kespa does, and will win if there is a litigation.
On May 04 2010 09:49 Day[9] wrote: rot in hell KeSPA. Seriously, I hope KeSPA tanks with the release of SC2. I absolutely despise KeSPA.
So you seriously believe a e-sport scene will exist in korea without kespa ( ie the ruleset, teams, players, sponsors, tv channels) ?
It makes me sad when people just dismiss kespa as a organization e-sport in SKorea doesn't actually need, beacuse they do..despite their wrong decisions throughout the years.
Don't come here and tell me that Blizzard will magicly manage to create a separate SC2 scene to coexist with the current SC:BW scene in SKorea.
It's either up to Kespa or we'll have a very small and lackluster SC2 scene or in worst case, no real sc2 pro scene at all.
Blizzard won't magically create a separate SC2 scene, we will. Power to the players. Kespa isn't the reason behind the success of SC in Korea - that honor goes to the players, the sponsors and the broadcasting services.
Kespa represents the players, the sponsors and the broadcasting services..
It's quite terrible that in every one of the threads discussing KeSPA, maybe half the posters still don't understand what it is.
Yea I know isnt it annoying?
senx, I believe that comment was intended for you, not me. At least I hope so, coz stating that kespa represents the players (please note that there's a difference between what you say you do and what you actually do) is too much bull crap within one comment.
On May 04 2010 11:14 Hot_Bid wrote: While your first response may be "yes, ofc Blizzard has CP rights, it made the game!!", looking at it from a copyright perspective (I'm not a copyright lawyer so don't quote me), Blizzard may not have rights to secondary user generated content, even if they specify this in their licensing agreements.
For example, does the person who invented baseball have rights to ticket proceeds of every single baseball game ever played? A few years ago there was a movie about people doing NY Times crossword puzzles, does the NYT have rights to proceeds from that movie because it depicted people playing their game?
Its not a black and white issue at all and will probably be litigated at some point, and if I had to go with my gut, I'd say its pretty close to swinging either way, at least with a US court.
i am almost certain blizzard has the actual intellectual property rights to what kespa does, and will win if there is a litigation.
Based on what? I'm almost certain blizzard doesn't have the intellectual property rights to secondary products and will lose if there is litigation.
On May 04 2010 11:14 Hot_Bid wrote: While your first response may be "yes, ofc Blizzard has CP rights, it made the game!!", looking at it from a copyright perspective (I'm not a copyright lawyer so don't quote me), Blizzard may not have rights to secondary user generated content, even if they specify this in their licensing agreements.
For example, does the person who invented baseball have rights to ticket proceeds of every single baseball game ever played? A few years ago there was a movie about people doing NY Times crossword puzzles, does the NYT have rights to proceeds from that movie because it depicted people playing their game?
Its not a black and white issue at all and will probably be litigated at some point, and if I had to go with my gut, I'd say its pretty close to swinging either way, at least with a US court.
i am almost certain blizzard has the actual intellectual property rights to what kespa does, and will win if there is a litigation.
well i am certain they dont, why? they went to legal war over china private wc3 servers and got raped badly in the chinese court. hence removed of lan play in sc2.
Unlike most TL posters, I haven't been married to SC for the last 10 years so I'm a bit more detached from the Korean pro gaming scene. With that said, I could give a shit less what Kespa does or does not do with SC2 as a result of Blizzard. SC2 is going to have some hardcore players from all the continents. SC1 was a great game but it wasn't popular after a couple years except in one little country. Everybody has their panties in a twist over it because of how pro-gaming is currently handled in Korea/SC1, but SC2 is going to be a whole different animal that is going to succeed in a far bigger market than SC1 ever did.
Sure, all the pros for SC1 tend to be Korean, but that won't translate perfectly in SC2. Many new gamers are going to aim to compete in tournaments and they will come from all over the world.
In regards to the whole Kespa wouldn't exist without starcraft and Kespa is using starcraft to make money... ladifuckingda. Does Blizzard pay royalties on WoW to UO's developers or the DND creators? No, the world doesn't work like that (thank god). Manufacturing plants sure as shit don't pay Ford for the idea to make mass production a chain of individual tasks.
----------------------------------------------------------- Kespa is an established provider with the means to continue bringing uninterrupted SC coverage. I think it is a more interesting short term plan to keep that sort of service alive so that the games are fresh in the minds of the players. But who knows?
I've been a Blizzard fanboy my whole life. But seeing SC2's beta development and the direction of WoW's development as of BC, I'm not sure Blizzard has my best interest at heart anymore. We'll see how this plays out.
Starcraft 2 will be an esport with or without them, you've just listened to the sound of kespa tooting its own horn for too long. How many other esports companies had bw tournaments? More than I can count. Your right that they want it to be an esport in korea, but they arn't about to bow down to anyone and give away something they've worked so hard for. If Sc2 isn't an esport in korea it will still be in 50 other countries. Look at cuba! theyve been isolated for 50 years due to the us led embargo and they have a bw pro scene there! It's the quality of the game not kespa that made BW great. Same will hold true for SC2
On May 04 2010 11:14 Hot_Bid wrote: While your first response may be "yes, ofc Blizzard has CP rights, it made the game!!", looking at it from a copyright perspective (I'm not a copyright lawyer so don't quote me), Blizzard may not have rights to secondary user generated content, even if they specify this in their licensing agreements.
For example, does the person who invented baseball have rights to ticket proceeds of every single baseball game ever played? A few years ago there was a movie about people doing NY Times crossword puzzles, does the NYT have rights to proceeds from that movie because it depicted people playing their game?
Its not a black and white issue at all and will probably be litigated at some point, and if I had to go with my gut, I'd say its pretty close to swinging either way, at least with a US court.
i am almost certain blizzard has the actual intellectual property rights to what kespa does, and will win if there is a litigation.
Based on what? I'm almost certain blizzard doesn't have the intellectual property rights to secondary products and will lose if there is litigation.
I think Kespa has no feet to stand on on this. Like it's been said Blizzard is the pimp daddy who gets to say who sleeps with its ho's. They make tons of money off WoW and if they wanted, kill E-Sports rebuild it (they don't even need to look hard for people who well play video games for a living). They have more money, power, rights, and a bigger country to make it in. Now South Korea has been good to pro gaming, but they didn't make it. What made it was video games period. Video games are a monster of its own. The industry is growing and growing and well eventually take over as the number one form of entertainment (it has already out grossed the music and movie industries in the States for the last 3 years). Starcraft well not be the only game that well be played at a pro level. You think that First Person shooter players are not going to want a pro-gaming league? What we are seeing is going to set the standard for laws and etiquette for pro gaming in the future. I hope blizzard wins. Say a game is made (by a small company) that gets accepted into the hearts of pro-gamers and turns into a hit. Out of nowhere, a big company comes in and says "Not only can you NOT stop us from doing what we want with your game; we're going to put it on what we want and do what we want. Try to stop us." That small company can't fight the bigger company and well lose all right to there ideas, work, effort, and love for the industry. So, those who say this is hurting e-sport; e-sports is going to happen. It becomes more of a slowing down then a stopping. As a person from the U.S playing starcraft, I don't much care for the elitist attitude of Kespa. They stomp on the a very good show, just to piss of blizzard. A show that had English speaking commentators. They the one shooting e-sports not blizzard.
On May 04 2010 11:14 Hot_Bid wrote: While your first response may be "yes, ofc Blizzard has CP rights, it made the game!!", looking at it from a copyright perspective (I'm not a copyright lawyer so don't quote me), Blizzard may not have rights to secondary user generated content, even if they specify this in their licensing agreements.
For example, does the person who invented baseball have rights to ticket proceeds of every single baseball game ever played? A few years ago there was a movie about people doing NY Times crossword puzzles, does the NYT have rights to proceeds from that movie because it depicted people playing their game?
Its not a black and white issue at all and will probably be litigated at some point, and if I had to go with my gut, I'd say its pretty close to swinging either way, at least with a US court.
i am almost certain blizzard has the actual intellectual property rights to what kespa does, and will win if there is a litigation.
Based on what? I'm almost certain blizzard doesn't have the intellectual property rights to secondary products and will lose if there is litigation.
On May 04 2010 11:14 Hot_Bid wrote: While your first response may be "yes, ofc Blizzard has CP rights, it made the game!!", looking at it from a copyright perspective (I'm not a copyright lawyer so don't quote me), Blizzard may not have rights to secondary user generated content, even if they specify this in their licensing agreements.
For example, does the person who invented baseball have rights to ticket proceeds of every single baseball game ever played? A few years ago there was a movie about people doing NY Times crossword puzzles, does the NYT have rights to proceeds from that movie because it depicted people playing their game?
Its not a black and white issue at all and will probably be litigated at some point, and if I had to go with my gut, I'd say its pretty close to swinging either way, at least with a US court.
This is probably exactly the argument Kespa, and other organizations want to argue. The problem is you are comparing a game thats 150+ years old and a game thats 10+ years old (and one not even out yet). Theres no clear creator to the rules used in MLB, they have evolved probably thousands of times into the rule set MLB uses now (and they add/change many rules a year). There is a clear creator of starcraft1/2, but you could argue that Kespa is making the rules under which their players are playing under. Like MLB the players could leave for another league, but obviously in both situations there is no real choice if you want to make money as a player.
But Kespa isn't running every esports league ever, just in korea. But like the MLB isn't running every baseball league in the world. Other leagues will work out deals with blizzard to set up and run big SC2 tournaments, and Kespa can keep using SC1 if they don't want to work with blizzard.
On May 04 2010 11:14 Hot_Bid wrote: While your first response may be "yes, ofc Blizzard has CP rights, it made the game!!", looking at it from a copyright perspective (I'm not a copyright lawyer so don't quote me), Blizzard may not have rights to secondary user generated content, even if they specify this in their licensing agreements.
For example, does the person who invented baseball have rights to ticket proceeds of every single baseball game ever played? A few years ago there was a movie about people doing NY Times crossword puzzles, does the NYT have rights to proceeds from that movie because it depicted people playing their game?
Its not a black and white issue at all and will probably be litigated at some point, and if I had to go with my gut, I'd say its pretty close to swinging either way, at least with a US court.
i am almost certain blizzard has the actual intellectual property rights to what kespa does, and will win if there is a litigation.
well i am certain they dont, why? they went to legal war over china private wc3 servers and got raped badly in the chinese court. hence removed of lan play in sc2.
not sure exactly how it works out internationally but relatively sure chinese protection of intellectual property is going to be A LOT thinner than korean protection of intellectual property
On May 04 2010 11:14 Hot_Bid wrote: While your first response may be "yes, ofc Blizzard has CP rights, it made the game!!", looking at it from a copyright perspective (I'm not a copyright lawyer so don't quote me), Blizzard may not have rights to secondary user generated content, even if they specify this in their licensing agreements.
For example, does the person who invented baseball have rights to ticket proceeds of every single baseball game ever played? A few years ago there was a movie about people doing NY Times crossword puzzles, does the NYT have rights to proceeds from that movie because it depicted people playing their game?
Its not a black and white issue at all and will probably be litigated at some point, and if I had to go with my gut, I'd say its pretty close to swinging either way, at least with a US court.
i am almost certain blizzard has the actual intellectual property rights to what kespa does, and will win if there is a litigation.
Based on what? I'm almost certain blizzard doesn't have the intellectual property rights to secondary products and will lose if there is litigation.
it's a very common right called a derivative work
Does that mean blizzard owns TL and TSL too?
not at all, no
i'm not saying it's black and white (few legal issues are) but i think they would have a pretty strong case. not saying that's good, either
On May 04 2010 11:14 Hot_Bid wrote: While your first response may be "yes, ofc Blizzard has CP rights, it made the game!!", looking at it from a copyright perspective (I'm not a copyright lawyer so don't quote me), Blizzard may not have rights to secondary user generated content, even if they specify this in their licensing agreements.
For example, does the person who invented baseball have rights to ticket proceeds of every single baseball game ever played? A few years ago there was a movie about people doing NY Times crossword puzzles, does the NYT have rights to proceeds from that movie because it depicted people playing their game?
Its not a black and white issue at all and will probably be litigated at some point, and if I had to go with my gut, I'd say its pretty close to swinging either way, at least with a US court.
i am almost certain blizzard has the actual intellectual property rights to what kespa does, and will win if there is a litigation.
well i am certain they dont, why? they went to legal war over china private wc3 servers and got raped badly in the chinese court. hence removed of lan play in sc2.
not sure exactly how it works out internationally but relatively sure chinese protection of intellectual property is going to be A LOT thinner than korean protection of intellectual property
and your basing these on ur years of korean and chinese law study? or you're just randomly assumine chinese are a bunch of pagan hippies? or any relative example case?
Someone care to explain to me why people hate KESPA so much? Is it just about the time when a player (forget who it was) was disqualified from a proleague match for typing 'ppp'? Obviously there must be more to it..
On May 04 2010 11:26 Reborn8u wrote: Starcraft 2 will be an esport with or without them, you've just listened to the sound of kespa tooting its own horn for too long. How many other esports companies had bw tournaments? More than I can count. Your right that they want it to be an esport in korea, but they arn't about to bow down to anyone and give away something they've worked so hard for. If Sc2 isn't an esport in korea it will still be in 50 other countries. Look at cuba! theyve been isolated for 50 years due to the us led embargo and they have a bw pro scene there! It's the quality of the game not kespa that made BW great. Same will hold true for SC2
I like the way you put this and I have to agree with you. It was necessary for some kind of KESPA like organization in korea to run all the tournaments, because progaming exploded, and they did a great job with broodwar. That, however, has absolutely nothing to do with SC2, and SC2 will still be big in korea regardless of the BW scene and kespa.
Is it just me or does this sound like Blizzard plans to get real active in ESports with SC2?
I mean, only licensing for 1 year, wanting to audit all contract negotiations and other management decisions (including finances)... This sounds like Blizz is getting really involved in esports which i think is kick-ass!!
On May 04 2010 11:14 Hot_Bid wrote: While your first response may be "yes, ofc Blizzard has CP rights, it made the game!!", looking at it from a copyright perspective (I'm not a copyright lawyer so don't quote me), Blizzard may not have rights to secondary user generated content, even if they specify this in their licensing agreements.
For example, does the person who invented baseball have rights to ticket proceeds of every single baseball game ever played? A few years ago there was a movie about people doing NY Times crossword puzzles, does the NYT have rights to proceeds from that movie because it depicted people playing their game?
Its not a black and white issue at all and will probably be litigated at some point, and if I had to go with my gut, I'd say its pretty close to swinging either way, at least with a US court.
i am almost certain blizzard has the actual intellectual property rights to what kespa does, and will win if there is a litigation.
well i am certain they dont, why? they went to legal war over china private wc3 servers and got raped badly in the chinese court. hence removed of lan play in sc2.
not sure exactly how it works out internationally but relatively sure chinese protection of intellectual property is going to be A LOT thinner than korean protection of intellectual property
and your basing these on ur years of korean and chinese law study? or you're just randomly assumine chinese are a bunch of pagan hippies? or any relative example case?
wow, aggressive much? it's pretty well known that china is a haven for piracy and they, i don't happen to be an expert in korean or chinese law - are you just being an angry net dude or is this an area in which you have some sort of expertise? a simple google search reveals that intellectual property law in china is considered a problem area whereas the derivative works doctrine for example is near-identical to the united states standard in korea, although of course i haven't read the case law - seriously - is this a topic you guys know a lot about or do you just like to jump on people for being pessimistic
I think it's reasonable and within the rights of Blizzard to have a say in what brands and products are marketed alongside their intellectual property. I doubt for example they would want a competitor to one of their games sponsor a tournament.
people are saying the most ridiculous shit =_=....
all of this copyright legal stuff is irrelevant. Without lan support, blizzard can simply turn off their accounts and deny them the ability to play if they don't follow their wishes or if blizzard feels they aren't respecting their copyright.Can a court force blizzard to allow them access to BNET? No. The pro scene everyone will be following is the bnet2 scene because everyone who owns the game will already have access to that scene. No more of Korea dictating who is the best and who gets to have licenses. There will be pro players from all over the world now competing at top levels, the korean/kespa monopoly is over. Skill will decide who is the best and who competes with the best not kespa. All blizzard has to do is flip a switch and kespa wont have a product anymore. End of story.
lol sorry guys i've been drinking a little. i didn't realize "secondary products" referred to branding, i can't possibly see how blizzard has the rights to that although maybe there's a wrinkle in the case law there somewhere. carry on as though i never spoke
Worst case scenario for Blizzard, if they lose everything in the case, they can bribe the US military to pull out of S. Korea. Then KeSPA can negotiate with Kim.
I see everyone is just assuming sc2 is going to hit it big as an esports. I think some of you guys are having quite a thin notion of what Esports is. I am sure Sc2 will do as well as Wc3 or maybe better but will it be an Esports? Esports to me is year round multiple leagues with thousands of live fans at finals, two sports Channel broadcasting 24/7 (ogn, mbcgame), while some of you think if it has few tournaments here and there it should be called esports.
I wont really pretend to understand who is right or wrong or whose alligations are true, but I do think that blizzard truly cares about their playerbase, and kespa cares about lining their pockets. Gonna have to side with blizzard on this one.
On May 04 2010 11:41 Agrate1 wrote: I wont really pretend to understand who is right or wrong or whose alligations are true, but I do think that blizzard truly cares about their playerbase, and kespa cares about lining their pockets. Gonna have to side with blizzard on this one.
Yeah, blizzard doesn't care about the financial prospects of esports. They just waste millions of dollars on legal advice because they love their fans. Get with the picture. business is business.
On May 04 2010 11:14 Hot_Bid wrote: While your first response may be "yes, ofc Blizzard has CP rights, it made the game!!", looking at it from a copyright perspective (I'm not a copyright lawyer so don't quote me), Blizzard may not have rights to secondary user generated content, even if they specify this in their licensing agreements.
For example, does the person who invented baseball have rights to ticket proceeds of every single baseball game ever played? A few years ago there was a movie about people doing NY Times crossword puzzles, does the NYT have rights to proceeds from that movie because it depicted people playing their game?
Its not a black and white issue at all and will probably be litigated at some point, and if I had to go with my gut, I'd say its pretty close to swinging either way, at least with a US court.
i am almost certain blizzard has the actual intellectual property rights to what kespa does, and will win if there is a litigation.
well i am certain they dont, why? they went to legal war over china private wc3 servers and got raped badly in the chinese court. hence removed of lan play in sc2.
not sure exactly how it works out internationally but relatively sure chinese protection of intellectual property is going to be A LOT thinner than korean protection of intellectual property
and your basing these on ur years of korean and chinese law study? or you're just randomly assumine chinese are a bunch of pagan hippies? or any relative example case?
wow, aggressive much? it's pretty well known that china is a haven for piracy and they, i don't happen to be an expert in korean or chinese law - are you just being an angry net dude or is this an area in which you have some sort of expertise? a simple google search reveals that intellectual property law in china is considered a problem area whereas the derivative works doctrine for example is near-identical to the united states standard in korea, although of course i haven't read the case law - seriously - is this a topic you guys know a lot about or do you just like to jump on people for being pessimistic
no bro, you just had no credibility in your previous post. so i wanted to see why you would think korea > china in IP laws. you have to cite some sources or qualifcations to back such a claim.
On May 04 2010 11:41 DatTheMighty wrote: I see everyone is just assuming sc2 is going to hit it big as an esports. I think some of you guys are having quite a thin notion of what Esports is. I am sure Sc2 will do as well as Wc3 or maybe better but will it be an Esports? Esports to me is year round multiple leagues with thousands of live fans at finals, two sports Channel broadcasting 24/7 (ogn, mbcgame), while some of you think if it has few tournaments here and there it should be called esports.
see: MLG has all of the above (they used to have televised tourneys on usa but I think all the swearing was a problem but all of the tourneys are livestreamed on theyre main page now)
Ogre brothers and walshy have made more than 1 million$$ each from mlg thousands of screaming fans at every event
and guess what, scbeta ladder is already on mlg's sister site gamebattles.com
I am not entirely sure why people continue to use primarily the "intellectual property" argument in Blizzard's favour when it is a very circumstantial argument, which could be torn down based on the specifics of the laws. In other word something Blizzard itself would unlikely trust to hold up in court. So considering how much Blizzard has put on the line with SCII wouldn't you think their team would have thought up something more solid?
Well I think they have, and it's the specification that all games must be played on Battle.net. (I seriously hope someone has pointed this out already but the fact that people still think Blizzard isn't in a strong position suggests the point didn't get across)
So in short if corporations, like KeSpa, don't agree to what ever Blizzard wants, well, they and their players can simply be not allowed to play. This is because Blizzard owns the servers so clearly they have the right to not let certain people use them, and based on the terms of usage all multiplayer games must be played on their servers.
In conclusion Blizzard made SCII only playable over Battle.net so that they don't have to rely on the "intellectual property" argument when fighting for control over their product. In fact if e-sports were to start up and Blizzard didn't like how things were going they could theoretically shut down all their servers and no one could play SCII multiplayer without violating the terms of usage.
i'm a bit stunned that people think blizzard overseeing/authorizing kespa's decisions would be a bad thing. do you really expect them to mismanage it anymore than it already is? if anything, i'd think blizzard/activision would be able to pull in some more sponsors for ESPORTS.
kespa's statement just reads like Victimization 101. fuck 'em.
COPYRIGHT LAWS ARE IRRELEVANT! If blizzard feels they are being infringed on by kespa they just turn off their access to BNET (ipbans anyone) no need to waste time and money on courts, then Kespa no longer has a product
On May 04 2010 11:14 Hot_Bid wrote: While your first response may be "yes, ofc Blizzard has CP rights, it made the game!!", looking at it from a copyright perspective (I'm not a copyright lawyer so don't quote me), Blizzard may not have rights to secondary user generated content, even if they specify this in their licensing agreements.
For example, does the person who invented baseball have rights to ticket proceeds of every single baseball game ever played? A few years ago there was a movie about people doing NY Times crossword puzzles, does the NYT have rights to proceeds from that movie because it depicted people playing their game?
Its not a black and white issue at all and will probably be litigated at some point, and if I had to go with my gut, I'd say its pretty close to swinging either way, at least with a US court.
i am almost certain blizzard has the actual intellectual property rights to what kespa does, and will win if there is a litigation.
well i am certain they dont, why? they went to legal war over china private wc3 servers and got raped badly in the chinese court. hence removed of lan play in sc2.
not sure exactly how it works out internationally but relatively sure chinese protection of intellectual property is going to be A LOT thinner than korean protection of intellectual property
and your basing these on ur years of korean and chinese law study? or you're just randomly assumine chinese are a bunch of pagan hippies? or any relative example case?
wow, aggressive much? it's pretty well known that china is a haven for piracy and they, i don't happen to be an expert in korean or chinese law - are you just being an angry net dude or is this an area in which you have some sort of expertise? a simple google search reveals that intellectual property law in china is considered a problem area whereas the derivative works doctrine for example is near-identical to the united states standard in korea, although of course i haven't read the case law - seriously - is this a topic you guys know a lot about or do you just like to jump on people for being pessimistic
no bro, you just had no credibility in your previous post. so i wanted to see why you would think korea > china in IP laws. you have to cite some sources or qualifcations to back such a claim.
i'm not going to cite my qualifications; this is an anonymous board. it's pretty conventional wisdom in copyright circles that china is some sort of a problem; i know less about korea, but i'm reading stuff online now, and if it's true about korea as well, i'd love to see something from you. i'm happy to hear what your qualifications are and engage in some sort of productive dialogue, but if you're not going to present any, i'm happy to simply provoke your anger by stating what i've learned from experts in the field.
On May 04 2010 11:41 DatTheMighty wrote: I see everyone is just assuming sc2 is going to hit it big as an esports. I think some of you guys are having quite a thin notion of what Esports is. I am sure Sc2 will do as well as Wc3 or maybe better but will it be an Esports? Esports to me is year round multiple leagues with thousands of live fans at finals, two sports Channel broadcasting 24/7 (ogn, mbcgame), while some of you think if it has few tournaments here and there it should be called esports.
see: MLG has all of the above (they used to have televised tourneys on usa but I think all the swearing was a problem but all of the tourneys are livestreamed on theyre main page now)
Ogre brothers and walshy have made more than 1 million$$ each from mlg thousands of screaming fans at every event
and guess what, scbeta ladder is already on mlg's sister site gamebattles.com
The only true esports is sc korea bro. the rest is just petty stuff in comparison. i am sure moon (wc3 player) makes more than alot top sc players but that doenst make wc3 an esports. its like you just ignored my post yet quote it. and "used to have televies tourneys" isnt too convincing to your argument either.
On May 04 2010 11:38 Reborn8u wrote: all of this copyright legal stuff is irrelevant. Without lan support, blizzard can simply turn off their accounts and deny them the ability to play if they don't follow their wishes or if blizzard feels they aren't respecting their copyright.Can a court force blizzard to allow them access to BNET? No. The pro scene everyone will be following is the bnet2 scene because everyone who owns the game will already have access to that scene. No more of Korea dictating who is the best and who gets to have licenses. There will be pro players from all over the world now competing at top levels, the korean/kespa monopoly is over. Skill will decide who is the best and who competes with the best not kespa. All blizzard has to do is flip a switch and kespa wont have a product anymore. End of story.
This has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether there are professional players in other places than Korea. That is entirely up to the rest of the world -_-
I don't get how you could possibly think that Blizzard having this level of control is good - they are a great company but I don't want ANYONE to have that kind of control over the esports scene, it just isn't healthy.
On May 04 2010 11:41 Agrate1 wrote: I wont really pretend to understand who is right or wrong or whose alligations are true, but I do think that blizzard truly cares about their playerbase, and kespa cares about lining their pockets. Gonna have to side with blizzard on this one.
Yeah, blizzard doesn't care about the financial prospects of esports. They just waste millions of dollars on legal advice because they love their fans. Get with the picture. business is business.
On May 04 2010 09:36 Mortality wrote: The problem is this:
For about the past decade, Blizzard has put very little resources into Starcraft. They have fundamentally left the game to the community. KeSPA became the leading figure in the community and assumed the power it was left with in the vacuum that was left by Blizzard essentially shrugging its shoulders and saying "Starcraft is a completed game."
So KeSPA got more and more powerful as the teams realized they needed some kind of unifying body. That's not to say that KeSPA is an entirely honest organization, but that they are fundamentally more of a necessity for e-sports to function than most TL.netters give credit to. TLnet has a fundamentally negative view of KeSPA. We think of GOM being canceled, of Flash's game being forfeited, of players being disqualified for saying "pp" instead of "ppp." But the reality is that e-sports functions much more smoothly and with much less corruption with them in power than it used to before.
But now Blizzard has their new hot tamale on the runway and realizes it's missing it on a big piece of pie. But KeSPA's thinking "this is our pie."
This post needs more love.
I'm an absolute Blizzard fanboy, and I dislike KeSPA as much as the rest of you for the retarded moves over the years, but I'm absolutely in favor of whatever keeps the ESPORTS train going. And IMO that happens to be with KeSPA staying around. Yes, another company could very easily come in, but how many years before they stabalize and have an operation as smooth as KeSPA's? What will the scene/community look like by then? Will the star players really stick around to see if the corporate men can work things out?
On May 04 2010 09:36 Mortality wrote: The problem is this:
For about the past decade, Blizzard has put very little resources into Starcraft. They have fundamentally left the game to the community. KeSPA became the leading figure in the community and assumed the power it was left with in the vacuum that was left by Blizzard essentially shrugging its shoulders and saying "Starcraft is a completed game."
So KeSPA got more and more powerful as the teams realized they needed some kind of unifying body. That's not to say that KeSPA is an entirely honest organization, but that they are fundamentally more of a necessity for e-sports to function than most TL.netters give credit to. TLnet has a fundamentally negative view of KeSPA. We think of GOM being canceled, of Flash's game being forfeited, of players being disqualified for saying "pp" instead of "ppp." But the reality is that e-sports functions much more smoothly and with much less corruption with them in power than it used to before.
But now Blizzard has their new hot tamale on the runway and realizes it's missing it on a big piece of pie. But KeSPA's thinking "this is our pie."
This post needs more love.
I'm an absolute Blizzard fanboy, and I dislike KeSPA as much as the rest of you for the retarded moves over the years, but I'm absolutely in favor of whatever keeps the ESPORTS train going. And IMO that happens to be with KeSPA staying around. Yes, another company could very easily come in, but how many years before they stabalize and have an operation as smooth as KeSPA's? What will the scene/community look like by then? Will the star players really stick around to see if the corporate men can work things out?
On May 04 2010 11:41 DatTheMighty wrote: I see everyone is just assuming sc2 is going to hit it big as an esports. I think some of you guys are having quite a thin notion of what Esports is. I am sure Sc2 will do as well as Wc3 or maybe better but will it be an Esports? Esports to me is year round multiple leagues with thousands of live fans at finals, two sports Channel broadcasting 24/7 (ogn, mbcgame), while some of you think if it has few tournaments here and there it should be called esports.
Agreed, the perfection that is BW was an accident.
I'm sceptical as to SC2 sucess as a perfectly balanced game like BW
Hopefully people will see KeSPA with better eyes. I was always rooting for them. I wish Blizzard gets its ass burned, but I know this wont happen (cant stop me from wishing. Their games are have always been buggy, but people never minded. Most starcraft games abuse these bugs (muta stacking, patrol attacks, and hold position lurkers just to name a few) to attempt to achieve balance.
KeSPA might just keep broadcasting BW even after SC2 release. It seems like many pro-teams aren't looking forward to starting over after working so hard on BW, and if KeSPA isn't allowed to broadcast SC2 it gives everyone an excuse to stick with BW.
if Blizzard doesnt need KeSPA, why in 10 years, they have been unable to reproduce an e-Sport in any part of the world with his millions of dollars? they can say f.u. korea we are gonna get rich with the rest of the world, why they dont do it?, where are all the tourneys organized by blizzard if they really want to become like FIFA,KeSPA?, you see, Blizzard is bluffing, they will keep trying to negotiate with KeSPA.
IMPORTANT NOTE BEFORE YOU COMMENT This isn't America. You might think you are an internet lawyer, but it doesn't work that way in Korea. It's not as black and white as you might think...if it was, this wouldn't even be an issue
On May 04 2010 11:41 DatTheMighty wrote: I see everyone is just assuming sc2 is going to hit it big as an esports. I think some of you guys are having quite a thin notion of what Esports is. I am sure Sc2 will do as well as Wc3 or maybe better but will it be an Esports? Esports to me is year round multiple leagues with thousands of live fans at finals, two sports Channel broadcasting 24/7 (ogn, mbcgame), while some of you think if it has few tournaments here and there it should be called esports.
Agreed, the perfection that is BW was an accident.
I'm sceptical as to SC2 sucess as a perfectly balanced game like BW
On May 04 2010 11:14 Hot_Bid wrote: While your first response may be "yes, ofc Blizzard has CP rights, it made the game!!", looking at it from a copyright perspective (I'm not a copyright lawyer so don't quote me), Blizzard may not have rights to secondary user generated content, even if they specify this in their licensing agreements.
For example, does the person who invented baseball have rights to ticket proceeds of every single baseball game ever played? A few years ago there was a movie about people doing NY Times crossword puzzles, does the NYT have rights to proceeds from that movie because it depicted people playing their game?
Its not a black and white issue at all and will probably be litigated at some point, and if I had to go with my gut, I'd say its pretty close to swinging either way, at least with a US court.
They have CP rights and internationally it's seen as literary art according to international patent laws. That analogy you used doesn't apply in this situation. Baseball wasn't created as a product for consumers in it's original intent. It was adopted from rounder's and later a standard type field was created along with rules.
The film Wordplay had heavy ny times involvement. The puzzles used in the film are copyrighted by the ny times and used with permission since the editor himself starred in the film. So they were definitely paid for the rights to use their name etc in the film. Nytimes crossword blog on their website is named Wordplay for some odd reason.
in short copyright holder's can ask for royalties for your work. Artists ask royalties to use their music or art. Software isn't any different nor is jay z sueing that baseball player for using the likeness club 50-50.
Nice to have both sides of the story but Blizzard has the control here. There are tons of players not under kespa, there is only one game though. I guess Blizzard figures they can make more money/promote their game better even with sacrificing kespa benefits.
KeSPA has basically no leverage from what it seems. It seems like it's going to be KeSPA getting completely screwed and being shut out because Blizzard is trying to set a legal precedent about the intellectual rights of the developer. It's either that or KeSPA gives in to the demands and becomes substantially less influential in the gaming community. Either way KeSPA seems to be at a sizable disadvantage when it comes to negotiations.
As a sidenote, I don't know exactly how the law works in South Korea, but it seems to me that it doesn't matter if they have claim to it or not, Blizzard doesn't need KeSPA. KeSPA NEEDS Blizzard. Blizzard can and should ask for as much as it can get it's hands on because that is how you run a business successfully. I have every faith in Blizzard's decisions seeing as they keep making amazingly successful decisions when it comes to marketing and distribution. I'd rather see the developer in control of their own game than having some third party that just wants to leech off of Blizzard's success be in control of it.
On May 04 2010 12:06 insanet wrote: if Blizzard doesnt need KeSPA, why in 10 years, they have been unable to reproduce an e-Sport in any part of the world with his millions of dollars? they can say f.u. korea we are gonna get rich with the rest of the world, why they dont do it?, where are all the tourneys organized by blizzard if they really want to become like FIFA,KeSPA?, you see, Blizzard is bluffing, they will keep trying to negotiate with KeSPA.
There was an article a while back on TL explaining why E-sports is so successful in South Korea, but I can't find it right now. -.- I'm still looking for it and if I find it I'll link it...
I don't see how Blizzard is bluffing, considering they have all the leverage in the world.
On May 04 2010 11:41 DatTheMighty wrote: I see everyone is just assuming sc2 is going to hit it big as an esports. I think some of you guys are having quite a thin notion of what Esports is. I am sure Sc2 will do as well as Wc3 or maybe better but will it be an Esports? Esports to me is year round multiple leagues with thousands of live fans at finals, two sports Channel broadcasting 24/7 (ogn, mbcgame), while some of you think if it has few tournaments here and there it should be called esports.
see: MLG has all of the above (they used to have televised tourneys on usa but I think all the swearing was a problem but all of the tourneys are livestreamed on theyre main page now)
Ogre brothers and walshy have made more than 1 million$$ each from mlg thousands of screaming fans at every event
and guess what, scbeta ladder is already on mlg's sister site gamebattles.com
The only true esports is sc korea bro. the rest is just petty stuff in comparison. i am sure moon (wc3 player) makes more than alot top sc players but that doenst make wc3 an esports. its like you just ignored my post yet quote it. and "used to have televies tourneys" isnt too convincing to your argument either.
So your saying being on TV is the only determining factor in being an esport? MLG isn't a joke they've been around for almost a decade and they're still growing. They have major sponsors like stride, and Dr, pepper. If you think year round leagues are a good thing , well their is a reason every sport has a good bit of off season. The pro's in korea playing year round is probably has a lot to do with how short their careers are.
It's sad how many people have converted to the religion of kespaism, "Without kespa there is no esports. It reminds me of "if you dont believe in jesus your going to burn in hell"
It is you my friend who has a thin notion of what esports is! here is something you should read, if you don't think mlg is an esport almost 10,000 people PAID to watch 1 mlg event in 2009 live...... half a million watched the live stream! This is ESports!
In addition, Blizzard requests that all aspects of league management would have be authorized by them beforehand, including the acquiring of sponsorships, marketing planning and broadcast planning. Furthermore, Blizzard made other unreasonable requests beyond the rights of the copyright holder, such as royalties and sub-licensing fees on sponsorships and broadcasting fees, the right to audit KeSPA’s finances, as well as ownership of secondary content created through our unique resources in the teams, players, and broadcasting expertise.
I have a hard time believing this is the absolute truth, but if it is. I'm with KeSPA on this one.
Particularly concerning are the parts I have bolded. The underlined I feel is within reason.
KeSPA does a great job representing corporate interest. I think the reason they are viewed poorly is that their primary concern is not the players. (They should create something else for that.)
Blizzard has a right to protect their name, but KeSPA needs freedom to operate.
There is miles of gray area fragmented throughout this whole situation. I hope something can be agreed on. It would be really terrible if SC2 was killed before it even had a chance by two stubborn bureaucracies.
On May 04 2010 11:41 DatTheMighty wrote: I see everyone is just assuming sc2 is going to hit it big as an esports. I think some of you guys are having quite a thin notion of what Esports is. I am sure Sc2 will do as well as Wc3 or maybe better but will it be an Esports? Esports to me is year round multiple leagues with thousands of live fans at finals, two sports Channel broadcasting 24/7 (ogn, mbcgame), while some of you think if it has few tournaments here and there it should be called esports.
Agreed, the perfection that is BW was an accident.
I'm sceptical as to SC2 sucess as a perfectly balanced game like BW
aha lets meet up #care
wc3 > bw btw XD
If you truly believe that, then wow... Otherwise, nice troll.
On May 04 2010 11:41 DatTheMighty wrote: I see everyone is just assuming sc2 is going to hit it big as an esports. I think some of you guys are having quite a thin notion of what Esports is. I am sure Sc2 will do as well as Wc3 or maybe better but will it be an Esports? Esports to me is year round multiple leagues with thousands of live fans at finals, two sports Channel broadcasting 24/7 (ogn, mbcgame), while some of you think if it has few tournaments here and there it should be called esports.
Agreed, the perfection that is BW was an accident.
I'm sceptical as to SC2 sucess as a perfectly balanced game like BW
Don't even start this discussion. BW's success was an accident or not didn't matter, Blizzard created it.
Even when an idiot invented something great he still deserves everything from his invention.
On May 04 2010 11:41 DatTheMighty wrote: I see everyone is just assuming sc2 is going to hit it big as an esports. I think some of you guys are having quite a thin notion of what Esports is. I am sure Sc2 will do as well as Wc3 or maybe better but will it be an Esports? Esports to me is year round multiple leagues with thousands of live fans at finals, two sports Channel broadcasting 24/7 (ogn, mbcgame), while some of you think if it has few tournaments here and there it should be called esports.
Agreed, the perfection that is BW was an accident.
I'm sceptical as to SC2 sucess as a perfectly balanced game like BW
aha lets meet up #care
wc3 > bw btw XD
If you truly believe that, then wow... Otherwise, nice troll.
im not saying wc3 was the bigger game in the esports scene, just saying wc3 > bw u know what that sign means?
Another thing to note; There isn't any perceived ip infringement for tournaments (hdh, tsl, wcg, etc.). it's strange why blizzard is making such a fuss with kespa. i suppose it could be that kespa is big money and that's why blizzard is going after them.
another point is that kespa is making bucks while the smaller venues aren't, but that doesn't work. hdh, tsl, and wcg all have sponsors just like kespa so i don't think that point works well. if blizzard is claiming ip for showing starcraft gameplay, doesn't that put all videos of any videogame at risk? blizzard is certainly making some very difficult demands.
On May 04 2010 07:46 redtooth wrote: i'm actually surprised at the number of people taking kespa's side. just try to remember a time you've heard kespa's name associated with a positive act? they are just a bunch of greedy bureaucratic idiots who are trying their best to stay alive with SC2 looming around the corner.
They may be, but they have now come to represent the entire esports industry. Whether they were idiots in the past or not, there is no chance that the esports scene will amputate kespa and run on its own, so hate it or love it, esports and kespa go hand in hand. Now if what kespa's statement outlines is true, blizzard is asking kespa to hand over the esports industry, and if you ask me that is absurd
It's true. If Blizzard is being as unreasonable as KeSPA says, then it is (in my eyes) that Blizzard is the one doing wrong, no matter how stupid KeSPA has been in the past. Assuming KeSPA's claims are accurate.
Kespa's aces: existing infrastructure (mega sponsorship + players) and possibly government backing + Korean law
Blizzard's aces: SC2 + Bnet2.0
If Blizzard wants to strong arm Kespa (i.e. lock out SC2 from Kespa), then Kespa would be forced to stick with SC1 (not likely) or create their own RTS. Would be a loss for both sides, but probably bigger loss for Kespa. If this happens, we will find out about Blizzard's true intentions as they start working with new SC2 leagues.
Thanks Waxangel. I bet a lot of people feel kinda stupid about slandering KeSPA in the thread about Blizz ceasing negotiations with KeSPA. I know I do.
I guess reading this gives me a lot more perspective. I'm kind of neutral here.
On this topic KeSPA isn't really trying to wrong Blizzard or anyone, but on several other accounts they've proven to be greedy pricks.
Then there's Blizzard who's just as greedy it seems, and basically wants to turn KeSPA into it's gay man slave bitch. Sure KeSPA fucks around a lot, but I think it's fair to say that they would definitely do their part in bringing success to SC2.
I just hope that the two parties come to a reasonable agreement.
On May 04 2010 07:46 redtooth wrote: i'm actually surprised at the number of people taking kespa's side. just try to remember a time you've heard kespa's name associated with a positive act? they are just a bunch of greedy bureaucratic idiots who are trying their best to stay alive with SC2 looming around the corner.
Oh well ... As far as how I see it, there is an ideal solution to all of this problem.
Korea continues their BW Proscene. Majority sticks to playing SC:BW instead of SC2. 1) All the progamers can continue plying their trade. 2) All the infrastructure can continue unhindered. 3) The casual gamers might play around abit with SC2, but the truly hardcore fans would still stick to what they have grown to love for the past few years.
The rest of the world can start to develop the SC2 proscene. 1) From all the beta tournaments etc, there seems to be promise in this area. 2) Blizzard can have total monopoly of the international E-sports development through their new Bnet. 3) Foreigners will have a chance to start winning.
Why must everyone assume immediately that its a case of either/or?
True that theres lots of assumptions in the above, but from what I see, perhaps thats what the koreans are thinking too, with their 18+ rating on SC2. It's quite a good move in my opinion. Win-Win.
On May 04 2010 11:41 DatTheMighty wrote: I see everyone is just assuming sc2 is going to hit it big as an esports. I think some of you guys are having quite a thin notion of what Esports is. I am sure Sc2 will do as well as Wc3 or maybe better but will it be an Esports? Esports to me is year round multiple leagues with thousands of live fans at finals, two sports Channel broadcasting 24/7 (ogn, mbcgame), while some of you think if it has few tournaments here and there it should be called esports.
Agreed, the perfection that is BW was an accident.
I'm sceptical as to SC2 sucess as a perfectly balanced game like BW
Don't even start this discussion. BW's success was an accident or not didn't matter, Blizzard created it.
Even when an idiot invented something great he still deserves everything from his invention.
A lot of people invented things or created theories and don't get a single ounce of credit for it.
Based on what? I'm almost certain blizzard doesn't have the intellectual property rights to secondary products and will lose if there is litigation.
I'm not sure you understand what the US law on "intellectual property" is. Blizzard in theory at least owns the Starcraft universe itself, all of the races, characters, and units, in the same way Walt Disney owns Mickey Mouse. If I make a map that has a slightly larger Zealot that shoots lasers out of his eyes, the map may be mine, but Blizzard still owns the Zealot, and thus I can't make any money off that map without Blizzard's express permission, in the same way that I can't make money selling a book about Mickey Mouse without Walt Disney's permission.
At least in terms of US law (NOTE: THIS IS IMPORTANT), the holding company has a great deal of control over their intellectual properties; Disney has even gone so far in the past as to sue day-care centers that have used their characters promotionally without permission. In the case of Disney, NO ONE is allowed to use their IP and profit off of it without their direct control and oversight.
Basically, from Blizzard's point of view, Kespa has been profiting off their IP for years by using the artwork, units, and even sound clips in all kinds of ways to promote their own events and in conjunction with all kinds of sponsors. As an example, just take a look at some of the recent Korean Air OSL commercials featuring Hydralisks, Dark Templar, and even sound-clips from the game itself; under at the very least US law, these commercials would almost definitely require direct authorization by Blizzard. Blizzard has basically let this slide, to a large extent simply because they weren't using or focusing on the Starcraft IP at all at that time, being engaged in the massive WoW endeavor.
However, with the release of SC2, the SC IP is going to be back in the public eye in a big way, continuing hopefully for many years to come. Now, they're trying to reassert their control over their intellectual property, so that they can control how their trademarks, logos, etc are used and with whom they are associated.
Understand that for Blizzard, this is much less about Starcraft 2 the GAME and much more about the IP and trademarks involved; the name, characters, universe, units, art, etc. Blizzard wants to control exactly how these things are used by other companies to make a profit.
In this way, it's not really about money in the most immediate sense (though of course it is in a larger sense); royalties are certainly a part of it, but the most important thing Blizzard wants is CONTROL. It's really all about image for Blizzard. They want to protect and guard their image and the image of their products from anything that might tarnish that image in any way.
Bad publicity is a big deal in industries like this; Blizzard gets a very large portion of its sales based solely on the Blizzard image and logo, on their reputation for quality and professionalism, and SC2 is going to make most of its sales based solely on the Starcraft IP and image. It's understandable that Blizzard would want to be in a position to decide what gets associated with that image, and what doesn't, and what that image is used to represent.
However, Blizzard really does seem to want e-sports to flourish; for one thing, done right it's an amazing marketing tool, as the success of SC1 in Korea shows pretty clearly. It promotes and gets their IP out there in a way that few other things do; and if run professionally in a way worthy of the name "E-SPORTS," it makes their image even more prestigious, leading to more sales. As Mike Morhaime said, Blizzard is not into E-SPORTS as a direct money-making tool, but as a marketing tool.
However, Blizzard wants e-sports done in such a way that they can still control how their IP is used. In Korea, they want a business partner that will basically run e-sports for them, but still allow them the ultimate say on what gets associated with the IP, and what doesn't. Basically, they want to be in such a position that if the OSL got sponsored by a strip club or slave-labor using corporation, they could veto that; or if the players are being treated poorly (which would lead to bad press and a tarnishing of the image of SC as related to child labor, etc), they want to be able to change that; and they want to be able to take an active hand in preventing and prosecuting things like the match-fixing scandal, things that tarnish the image of Starcraft and Blizzard.
Image has always been VERY important to Blizzard, and it's very important to guys like Mike Morhaime. And, like it or not, Blizzard wants to be able to protect that image and control how it gets used, even in the realm of E-SPORTS.
And above all, regardless of what they've done to promote the popularity and profitability of e-sports, Kespa has had a HUGE image problem. Things like the "pp" scandals, the massive "free agency" scrap, and now the match-fixing scandal are EXACTLY the kinds of things Blizzard doesn't want to be associated with the name of Starcraft in consumers' minds.
From Blizzard's point of view, they absolutely can't just let Kespa have free reign over e-sports if it would mean even a single additional incident like the ones above...especially since (as they've done so far in Beta and have said they will continue to do and expand upon in the future) they plan to be aggressively promoting SC2 e-sports events to the general public through their websites, media, etc. And, really, there's no reason to expect Kespa to be any different than they have been in the future...
As the article shows, Kespa is perfectly willing to pay fees to Blizzard, so long as they're basically left alone to do whatever they want; but this is exactly what Blizzard won't allow, and it's exactly why they're trying to exercise more control over e-sports in the first place.
In other words, this conflict really cannot be resolved given the positions of the two sides. This could go into legal arbitration (in which case, not knowing ANYTHING about Korean laws concerning IP and copyright, I have no idea what would happen)...but more likely, Blizzard will simply allow Kespa to keep using SC1 and seek another, more cooperative, partner for SC2. There's a looooot of risk involved for both sides if they go to court; and I don't think either side will want to risk it.
But allowing Kespa to use the SC2 IP without oversight is something that Blizzard is never going to be willing to do...and accepting that kind of oversight is almost definitely something that Kespa, used to years of benign neglect from Blizzard, is not going to be willing to do.
Addendum: People complaining about Blizzard wanting to audit Kespa's finances don't know what they're talking about. This is simply another way for Blizzard to exercise control over their image; they don't want to be associated with any company that might not be totally above-the-board or honest. It's pretty standard for companies entering business partnerships to audit each other's finances...and like it or not, this is the relationship Blizzard is envisioning with Kespa. The one-year thing is also just Blizzard not wanting to commit themselves indefinitely to partnership with any one company. It probably also reflects their doubts about Kespa's capacity to manage the game.
On May 04 2010 11:41 DatTheMighty wrote: I see everyone is just assuming sc2 is going to hit it big as an esports. I think some of you guys are having quite a thin notion of what Esports is. I am sure Sc2 will do as well as Wc3 or maybe better but will it be an Esports? Esports to me is year round multiple leagues with thousands of live fans at finals, two sports Channel broadcasting 24/7 (ogn, mbcgame), while some of you think if it has few tournaments here and there it should be called esports.
Agreed, the perfection that is BW was an accident.
I'm sceptical as to SC2 sucess as a perfectly balanced game like BW
Don't even start this discussion. BW's success was an accident or not didn't matter, Blizzard created it.
Even when an idiot invented something great he still deserves everything from his invention.
A lot of people invented things or created theories and don't get a single ounce of credit for it.
Yeah, that's true. But those people aren't corporations with deep pockets. =0 In the US though it was only recently that inventors and researchers actually get any credit, never mind getting paid. You'd think that if you helped research technology that saves millions of lives medically, you'd be one of the richest people in the country. Not so true as it turns out.
Ok, aside from that little diversion, Blizzard has deep pockets. I'm pretty sure they will get what they deserve and more.
I love it when people say that Blizzard doesn't need KeSPA... if Blizz truly doesn't need KeSPA then why would they be negociating with them in the first place?
One big thing about esports is that you need an audience, and the only place where you'll find a real one for SC is S.Korea. Outside the only followers you'll get is mostly people that are actually playing or have already played the game. There's already an infrastructure in SK, and Blizz won't be able to pierce through the market if they don't go through the platform that is already there which is KeSPA, mainly because the organization controls esports in all of its most important aspects : Teams, TV channels and sponsors.
SC2 is already having issues in SK because of the ''adult only'' rating it might get. Do you think that an AO rated game will be broadcast 24/7 in all sorts of programs? There's no way an american based company will be able to lobby SC2 out of this without having at least a Korean partner taking interest in that business... so what about the major video game channels MBC and OGN? Sorry bud, they're part of KeSPA. So what about a major S.Korean corporation that could also sponsor our events like SK or Samsung?
You guys see where Blizzard is going without KeSPA?
E-sports was what made me get back into starcraft in the first place. Both e-sports, and HDstarcraft. If they pull the plug on KeSPA, I am going to be very disappointed. It's like Blizzard is pulling a Microsoft on Korea.
I love it when people say that Blizzard doesn't need KeSPA... if Blizz truly doesn't need KeSPA then why would they be negociating with them in the first place?
One big thing about esports is that you need an audience, and the only place where you'll find a real one for SC is S.Korea. Outside the only followers you'll get is mostly people that are actually playing or have already played the game. There's already an infrastructure in SK, and Blizz won't be able to pierce through the market if they don't go through the platform that is already there which is KeSPA, mainly because the organization controls esports in all of its most important aspects : Teams, TV channels and sponsors.
SC2 is already having issues in SK because of the ''adult only'' rating it might get. Do you think that an AO rated game will be broadcast 24/7 in all sorts of programs? There's no way an american based company will be able to lobby SC2 out of this without having at least a Korean partner taking interest in that business... so what about the major video game channels MBC and OGN? Sorry bud, they're part of KeSPA. So what about a major S.Korean corporation that could also sponsor our events like SK or Samsung?
You guys see where Blizzard is going without KeSPA?
Kespa is controlled by representatives of the largest e-sports sponsors, yes, but at the same time it is NOT the sponsors themselves. And it hardly holds a monopoly on possible e-sports sponsors in Korea. If Kespa goes the whole "solidarity" route, then Blizzard would indeed have a much harder time finding a partner...but the companies involved with Kespa are by no means monolithic, united, or agreeable with each other. And they're not the only companies in Korea...
On May 04 2010 11:41 DatTheMighty wrote: I see everyone is just assuming sc2 is going to hit it big as an esports. I think some of you guys are having quite a thin notion of what Esports is. I am sure Sc2 will do as well as Wc3 or maybe better but will it be an Esports? Esports to me is year round multiple leagues with thousands of live fans at finals, two sports Channel broadcasting 24/7 (ogn, mbcgame), while some of you think if it has few tournaments here and there it should be called esports.
Agreed, the perfection that is BW was an accident.
I'm sceptical as to SC2 sucess as a perfectly balanced game like BW
Don't even start this discussion. BW's success was an accident or not didn't matter, Blizzard created it.
Even when an idiot invented something great he still deserves everything from his invention.
A lot of people invented things or created theories and don't get a single ounce of credit for it.
Yeah, that's true. But those people aren't corporations with deep pockets. =0 In the US though it was only recently that inventors and researchers actually get any credit, never mind getting paid. You'd think that if you helped research technology that saves millions of lives medically, you'd be one of the richest people in the country. Not so true as it turns out.
Ok, aside from that little diversion, Blizzard has deep pockets. I'm pretty sure they will get what they deserve and more.
Completely false statement, people have been getting both credit and income for their inventions for hundreds of year, and companies that research and discover new cures are some of the richest people in the world. proof of my first statement here pfizer a drug company, Pfizer has four divisions: Human Health ($44.28B in 2005 sales), Consumer Healthcare ($3.87B in 2005 sales), Animal Health ($2.2B in 2005 sales), and Corporate Groups (which includes legal, finance, and HR).On June 26, 2006, Pfizer announced that it would sell its Consumer Healthcare unit (manufacturer of Listerine, Nicorette, Visine, Sudafed and Neosporin) to Johnson & Johnson for $16.6 billion. source
On May 04 2010 11:41 DatTheMighty wrote: I see everyone is just assuming sc2 is going to hit it big as an esports. I think some of you guys are having quite a thin notion of what Esports is. I am sure Sc2 will do as well as Wc3 or maybe better but will it be an Esports? Esports to me is year round multiple leagues with thousands of live fans at finals, two sports Channel broadcasting 24/7 (ogn, mbcgame), while some of you think if it has few tournaments here and there it should be called esports.
Agreed, the perfection that is BW was an accident.
I'm sceptical as to SC2 sucess as a perfectly balanced game like BW
Don't even start this discussion. BW's success was an accident or not didn't matter, Blizzard created it.
Even when an idiot invented something great he still deserves everything from his invention.
A lot of people invented things or created theories and don't get a single ounce of credit for it.
Yeah, that's true. But those people aren't corporations with deep pockets. =0 In the US though it was only recently that inventors and researchers actually get any credit, never mind getting paid. You'd think that if you helped research technology that saves millions of lives medically, you'd be one of the richest people in the country. Not so true as it turns out.
Ok, aside from that little diversion, Blizzard has deep pockets. I'm pretty sure they will get what they deserve and more.
Completely false statement, people have been getting both credit and income for their inventions for hundreds of year, and companies that research and discover new cures are some of the richest people in the world. proof of my first statement here pfizer a drug company, Pfizer has four divisions: Human Health ($44.28B in 2005 sales), Consumer Healthcare ($3.87B in 2005 sales), Animal Health ($2.2B in 2005 sales), and Corporate Groups (which includes legal, finance, and HR).On June 26, 2006, Pfizer announced that it would sell its Consumer Healthcare unit (manufacturer of Listerine, Nicorette, Visine, Sudafed and Neosporin) to Johnson & Johnson for $16.6 billion. source
Except that nothing you just said has anything to do with individuals and what they get out of it. Those are all corporations...
On May 04 2010 09:49 Day[9] wrote: rot in hell KeSPA. Seriously, I hope KeSPA tanks with the release of SC2. I absolutely despise KeSPA.
So you seriously believe a e-sport scene will exist in korea without kespa ( ie the ruleset, teams, players, sponsors, tv channels) ?
It makes me sad when people just dismiss kespa as a organization e-sport in SKorea doesn't actually need, beacuse they do..despite their wrong decisions throughout the years.
Don't come here and tell me that Blizzard will magicly manage to create a separate SC2 scene to coexist with the current SC:BW scene in SKorea.
It's either up to Kespa or we'll have a very small and lackluster SC2 scene or in worst case, no real sc2 pro scene at all.
Blizzard won't magically create a separate SC2 scene, we will. Power to the players. Kespa isn't the reason behind the success of SC in Korea - that honor goes to the players, the sponsors and the broadcasting services.
Kespa represents the players, the sponsors and the broadcasting services..
On May 04 2010 11:41 DatTheMighty wrote: I see everyone is just assuming sc2 is going to hit it big as an esports. I think some of you guys are having quite a thin notion of what Esports is. I am sure Sc2 will do as well as Wc3 or maybe better but will it be an Esports? Esports to me is year round multiple leagues with thousands of live fans at finals, two sports Channel broadcasting 24/7 (ogn, mbcgame), while some of you think if it has few tournaments here and there it should be called esports.
Agreed, the perfection that is BW was an accident.
I'm sceptical as to SC2 sucess as a perfectly balanced game like BW
Don't even start this discussion. BW's success was an accident or not didn't matter, Blizzard created it.
Even when an idiot invented something great he still deserves everything from his invention.
A lot of people invented things or created theories and don't get a single ounce of credit for it.
Yeah, that's true. But those people aren't corporations with deep pockets. =0 In the US though it was only recently that inventors and researchers actually get any credit, never mind getting paid. You'd think that if you helped research technology that saves millions of lives medically, you'd be one of the richest people in the country. Not so true as it turns out.
Ok, aside from that little diversion, Blizzard has deep pockets. I'm pretty sure they will get what they deserve and more.
Completely false statement, people have been getting both credit and income for their inventions for hundreds of year, and companies that research and discover new cures are some of the richest people in the world. proof of my first statement here pfizer a drug company, Pfizer has four divisions: Human Health ($44.28B in 2005 sales), Consumer Healthcare ($3.87B in 2005 sales), Animal Health ($2.2B in 2005 sales), and Corporate Groups (which includes legal, finance, and HR).On June 26, 2006, Pfizer announced that it would sell its Consumer Healthcare unit (manufacturer of Listerine, Nicorette, Visine, Sudafed and Neosporin) to Johnson & Johnson for $16.6 billion. source
Except that nothing you just said has anything to do with individuals and what they get out of it. Those are all corporations...
Yes it does, if I invent say a teleporter, I can patent it, and for 20 years I have a total monopoly over that invention. Read this carefully If you would have checked the first link in my other post you would have realized your wrong. It applies to the individual inventor. Congratulations, shinosai you've made 2 completely false posts in a row!
1. Blizzard pulls all the plugs from Kespa 2. Blizzard releases SC2 with the B.net 2.0 and no LAN. 3. SC2 fails to gain enough base support to grow to be successful. 4. SC2 shrivels up and dies after a couple years. 5. SC sites, such as TL.net, begin shutting down. 6. SC and SC2 become part of the history of the great E-sports experiment.
On May 04 2010 13:30 jpak wrote: Worst case scenario:
1. Blizzard pulls all the plugs from Kespa 2. Blizzard releases SC2 with the B.net 2.0 and no LAN. 3. SC2 fails to gain enough base support to grow to be successful. 4. SC2 shrivels up and dies after a couple years. 5. SC sites, such as TL.net, begin shutting down. 6. SC and SC2 become part of the history of the great E-sports experiment.
Hopefully, this won't happen. I hope SC2 is successful as an E-sports, with or without Kespa.
May be just me, but I smell some sense of entitlement coming from kespa. Are they entitled to have starcraft, just the way they want it too? They're not, and it doesn't matter what the conditions are.
Economics 101. If blizzard is being unreasonable, then no deal has to be made. Blizzard wants a deal, kespa wants a deal, because both have to gain if a deal is to be made. Blizzard expects to earn something, kespa will earn something. In no way is someone being "greedy" when they ask for too much, or being "cheap" when they bid too low. It's just the nature of economics, we all want to get the best of our deals be it selling or buying. An equilibrium will be hit once a deal is made, and if they can't reach an equilibrium, then at the worst, no party can be worse off than when they started (assuming no stealing, killing, etc. has been made)
That being said, I side with blizzard just because kespa sux cox.
Considering the corruption of KESPA and their related teams and star players I have no wish to see them in charge of anything. I have lost all respect for Korean e-sports as it is currently organized.
Blizzard has a record of doing everything they can to help e-sports around the globe in regards to their games. That they want licensing fees is not greedy, it is a valid and fair business model.
On the one hand you have an organization with a record of mishandling and bullying, being greedy and out of control. On the other hand you have a company that goes out of its way to promote events and work with sponsers to create great events.
Honestly, all this negativity towards Kespa here is beginning to make me sick. Yea, you're mad that they killed GOM. They had the power outage incident and the "ppp" incident. But let me remind you: THIS SPORT IS STILL RELATIVELY YOUNG!!! E-sports only began in Korea in 1998 - that's only 12 years people. Sports evolve and be refined over decades. In American Football, for example, the challenge system only came into being in 1999. The NFL just voted in March for new overtime rules. In fact, I was actually madder while watching "The Tuck Rule" game than the power outage crap. Are we not allowed to learn from mistakes people? And especially after the power outage incident, Kespa will be very keen not to make mistakes.
I'm not going to comment on copyright issues, cause I know squat. I'm just suggesting that you get over any blind hate you have for Kespa for killing GOM before posting further.
if what kespa is saying is true, blizzard should at least try to make some reasonable compromises. by totally refusing to negotiate without giving up some demands seems kinda childish to me. they both need each other.
On May 04 2010 13:05 Captain Peabody wrote:If Kespa goes the whole "solidarity" route, then Blizzard would indeed have a much harder time finding a partner...but the companies involved with Kespa are by no means monolithic, united, or agreeable with each other. And they're not the only companies in Korea...
According to the translation made in the OP, the corporations represented by KeSPA are standing united in this business... well that doesn't mean that a few of them could split up after a certain amount of time, but I really doubt it since it would literally break up the interests that they are currently gaining from BW.
From a business standpoint, I think that KeSPA's best move is to wait. Brood War isn't dead yet so you don't need to fully jump on the bandwagon of SC2 right after its release which means you can take the time to evaluate the market. At the same time, Blizzard will also realize how important KeSPA is for their implementation in S.Korea and this can only increase KeSPA's bargaining power since right now all the power belongs to Blizzard thanks to their smart strategy of making the SC2 client having to go through B.Net to be able to do anything.
On May 04 2010 12:20 MusicSC wrote: KeSPA has basically no leverage from what it seems. It seems like it's going to be KeSPA getting completely screwed and being shut out because Blizzard is trying to set a legal precedent about the intellectual rights of the developer. It's either that or KeSPA gives in to the demands and becomes substantially less influential in the gaming community. Either way KeSPA seems to be at a sizable disadvantage when it comes to negotiations.
Kespa as already used it power to make Starcraft 2 Beta an "Adults Only" game. They also have control over the media, which they can use to censor starcraft 2. If that happens, Starcraft 2 might never catch on as a popular game in Korea.
Honestly, I think Blizzard will work out a compromise with Kespa. It's in both's side's interests for that to happen. With Kespa's support, Starcraft 2 will get the biggest exposure in the media. If Blizzard doesn't work out a deal, Starcraft 2 sales in Korea will drop significantly.
And people have this notion that esports will be fine without Kespa, that we can organize and host tournaments ourselves. But think about it. The only reason Starcraft has captured our minds and hearts all these years is because of the Korean scene. It's because of the Korean scene that TSL ever came into being. I highly doubt, as much as you'd like to deny it, that SC2 will capture the world as an Esports game without the support of Kespa. Only Kespa, with the high quality games it can offer from high-level gamers its teams train, can SC2 begin to replace SC1.
Yurebis your missing one important detail, kespa stands to loose a lot and will be much worse off than they started if they cant use sc2 and continue in esports. Kespa needs permission to use sc2 in their broadcasts or they no longer have a product. I doubt people are going to keep the same passion for bw after sc2's release. Look at the current tl poll! How many people who have beta are still playing tons of bw? But i do agree about your stance on them coming to a deal not necessarily being pure greed. Just economics. In this case however, blizzard has the ability to deny kespa their main product. Kespa can deny blizzard some advertisement. Thats about it. Remember Blizzards side!
Also I don't understand why everyone is so convinced that esports can't exist without kespa. If there is a void in any market place with a lot of money to be made, that void will be filled, FAST!
MLG already has the sc2 beta ladder at gamebattles. And if you think MLG can't be the same or better than kespa read this! They may become the US's esports center for SC2! Even artosis had positive things to say about them "This is a very good thing for e-sports, MLG is a great organization, and any tournaments they run for sc2 are sure to be done very well..." source
On May 04 2010 11:41 DatTheMighty wrote: I see everyone is just assuming sc2 is going to hit it big as an esports. I think some of you guys are having quite a thin notion of what Esports is. I am sure Sc2 will do as well as Wc3 or maybe better but will it be an Esports? Esports to me is year round multiple leagues with thousands of live fans at finals, two sports Channel broadcasting 24/7 (ogn, mbcgame), while some of you think if it has few tournaments here and there it should be called esports.
Agreed, the perfection that is BW was an accident.
I'm sceptical as to SC2 sucess as a perfectly balanced game like BW
Don't even start this discussion. BW's success was an accident or not didn't matter, Blizzard created it.
Even when an idiot invented something great he still deserves everything from his invention.
A lot of people invented things or created theories and don't get a single ounce of credit for it.
Not sure what your point is. This is 2010, not 1850. As a profit business Blizzard can't just stand there getting nothing from KeSPA while their games are showed on 2 TV channels 24/7.
On May 04 2010 07:44 SichuanPanda wrote: Seems to me that Blizzard wants KeSPA to stop broadcasting Brood War to coincide with StarCraft 2 Release....
if thats true then maybe blizzard is scared that broodwar community will bash on the sc2 community for being a less skill-requiring game. which is exactly what happened in smash melee/brawl. competitive melee basically killed brawl because melee was a much better game, now melee has a bigger showing in tournaments despite brawl being in mlg and other professional gaming scenes
I believe there needs to be a culture change in the United States before Esports can truly become great. By now, in Korea, progamer is a job. It's accepted as a job, and others will treat you as if you have a job. The culture in the United States still revolves very much around the console (PS3, Xbox, Wii). Furthermore, gaming is still not treated as a serious profession.
To me, MLG is even more obscure than WWE. Even if MLG becomes a successful engine for esports, I doubt that SC2 will be supported for long. That's just my hunch.
What worries me most is the fate of these progamers we came to know and love. What will happen to Flash and Jaedong? Will they be jobless? Will they fade into obscurity forever? The ones who stand to lose the most is not Kespa or Blizzard, but the progamers whose livelihoods depend on this. If only for them, Blizzard, please at least renegotiate with Kespa. They're the ones who raised YOUR game to the heights it is today, and they're the reason why SC2 is so hyped as it is right now.
Those who are saying that Kespa is worthless should try comparing the BW scene in Korea with every other country in the world and tell us that Kespa doesn't do anything.
I think Blizz and KeSPA have to come to an angreement for the sake of the game.It is a difficult situation but I think it can be resolved in a matter that suits both sides or I hope so.And I have to add that each one of us,that doesn't live in Korea and doesn't have KeSPA, would be very happy if such an organisation appears in his country.
I think some of you forget that Blizzard is a GAME DEVELOPER. StarCraft wasn't really all that the first couple years it came out. It really took off after pro gaming scene started. I know exactly how it was, I lived in Korea then. It was like, one day we went to school and everyone was talking about StarCraft all of a sudden. You think that would have been possible without the StarCraft broadcasts on TV?
StarCraft was an amazing game, and I've played since SC1 beta (an illegally obtained beta!). But nobody else really played until it started getting broadcasted on TV and installed in internet cafes! By 2000, 2001, virtually ALL of my friends played it.
Blizzard made an excellent game. However, other companies have made excellent games in the past, too. What made StarCraft so different isn't just the game. StarCraft has a lot of flaws, I remember it got some bad reviews when it first came out. Its main competitor, Red Alert, was a hell of a game, too, and if it had multiplayer support, it might have taken off just like StarCraft. Anyway, I want to say that the Korean pro scene helped develop the game into one that far surpasses most other games. A lot of the credit belongs to KeSPA, assholes though they may be.
Blizzard is a game developer. They develop games, that's their product. KeSPA also develops products: not a game, but a scene. I think that KeSPA have better claim on that intellectual property than Blizzard. Someone said it right on the first page of this thread: Blizzard woke up and decided to get a taste of the pie KeSPA baked.
I don't like KeSPA either. They are corrupt and really obnoxious about their frequent power trips. But the problem is, unless they cooperate, it's going to greatly damage the pro gaming scene in Korea. Good thing I know English, I can just listen to US/EU broadcasts if it comes to that.
esports is changing in the US, espn put this on there site. Some food for thought. "ESPN is committed to serving our fans, and we recognize the growing popularity of pro video gaming," said John Kosner, senior vice president and general manager of digital media at ESPN in a press release issued yesterday. "Adding MLG content to our already comprehensive offering will help us continue to deliver the best news, information and entertainment to our growing gaming audience." "Pro video gaming offers sports fans everything they love about sports—great teams, break-out personalities and stars, and exciting competition," said Matthew Bromberg, President and CEO of Major League Gaming. "MLG's digital properties now reach over four million fans a month, and millions more follow the League on TV, mobile devices, and X-Box Live. We're excited to build upon that audience with ESPN."
This has become just like what Americans feel about Washington. The people are dissatisfied with how both parties are acting, and are speaking out about it. I took a quick look at the fomos forum, and from what I saw, there was a lot more sympathy with Kespa there. Sure, they hate Kespa for what they did wrong, such as the betting scandal, but they know that what Kespa did right for the development of Esports cannot be denied. Blizzard should get it through their heads that it's the Korean scene that hyped SC2 to the level it is now before doing anything else.
On May 04 2010 14:28 jpak wrote: What worries me most is the fate of these progamers we came to know and love. What will happen to Flash and Jaedong? Will they be jobless? Will they fade into obscurity forever? The ones who stand to lose the most is not Kespa or Blizzard, but the progamers whose livelihoods depend on this. If only for them, Blizzard, please at least renegotiate with Kespa. They're the ones who raised YOUR game to the heights it is today, and they're the reason why SC2 is so hyped as it is right now.
Sorry but I don't believe your last line is true at all. I believe that it's being hyped because a lot of WoW players are excited for another Blizzard game. I'd bet that if you went on the SC2 beta General Forums that less than half of the people would even know who kespa is.
On May 04 2010 14:37 Reborn8u wrote: esports is changing in the US, espn put this on there site. Some food for thought. "ESPN is committed to serving our fans, and we recognize the growing popularity of pro video gaming," said John Kosner, senior vice president and general manager of digital media at ESPN in a press release issued yesterday. "Adding MLG content to our already comprehensive offering will help us continue to deliver the best news, information and entertainment to our growing gaming audience." "Pro video gaming offers sports fans everything they love about sports—great teams, break-out personalities and stars, and exciting competition," said Matthew Bromberg, President and CEO of Major League Gaming. "MLG's digital properties now reach over four million fans a month, and millions more follow the League on TV, mobile devices, and X-Box Live. We're excited to build upon that audience with ESPN."
Yea, and ESPN also broadcasts the July 4th Hotdog Eating contest. And i know that better than MLG. Yea, MLG is successful, but what I'm concerned about is will they be able to support SC2 long-term? To put it better, are they committed to promoting SC2 as a long-term mainstay in their program? I don't know, but I know Kespa will. That's why I'm iffy about MLG. The fact that their only PC game in the pro circuit, as far as I know, is WoW doesn't help either.
jpak...I dont even know what to say except I can see why you have a Chuck Norris joke in your signature.
This isn't politics, this isn't washington, this isn't hot dog contests and espn. People aren't mad at Kespa because they had a power outage. Kespa hasn't done jack for the e-sports community that others wouldn't (and did in fact try to) have done if they hadn't bullied them out of business using broken laws and mafia style contracts to keep things going how they saw fit. Their business model is collapsing and their top players are more and more being exposed as greedy corrupt match throwing slime balls.
Yeah, awesome business model. I sure want these guys to be in charge over blizzard! That would be totally great!
Oh wait, no it wouldn't.
But please, carry on spamming post after post of ADD non-sense, its amusing at least.
I can't say I completely or even partially understand all the different things going on in this Blizzard vs. KeSPA battle. However, I support Blizzard because they are the ones who make the game(s) I love. Also, KeSPA DQ's people for typing and accidentally pausing during games and that is fucking bullshit. If anything they should encourage smack talk, especially if they want to even pretend it is somewhat sport-like. Like really, why can't you make decision on a case by case basis.
On May 04 2010 14:28 jpak wrote: What worries me most is the fate of these progamers we came to know and love. What will happen to Flash and Jaedong? Will they be jobless? Will they fade into obscurity forever? The ones who stand to lose the most is not Kespa or Blizzard, but the progamers whose livelihoods depend on this. If only for them, Blizzard, please at least renegotiate with Kespa. They're the ones who raised YOUR game to the heights it is today, and they're the reason why SC2 is so hyped as it is right now.
Sorry but I don't believe your last line is true at all. I believe that it's being hyped because a lot of WoW players are excited for another Blizzard game. I'd bet that if you went on the SC2 beta General Forums that less than half of the people would even know who kespa is.
My next and BIGGEST concern is: will SC2 be a long-term Esports game? The future looks pretty grim from what I see. This game cannot afford to be just one of those games that sell out millions for a few months just to fade into obscurity a couple years later. The WoW community has become more and more shit lately (trust me, I've been there), so I'm not going to trust what comes out of there, most likely.
On May 04 2010 14:37 Reborn8u wrote: esports is changing in the US, espn put this on there site. Some food for thought. "ESPN is committed to serving our fans, and we recognize the growing popularity of pro video gaming," said John Kosner, senior vice president and general manager of digital media at ESPN in a press release issued yesterday. "Adding MLG content to our already comprehensive offering will help us continue to deliver the best news, information and entertainment to our growing gaming audience." "Pro video gaming offers sports fans everything they love about sports—great teams, break-out personalities and stars, and exciting competition," said Matthew Bromberg, President and CEO of Major League Gaming. "MLG's digital properties now reach over four million fans a month, and millions more follow the League on TV, mobile devices, and X-Box Live. We're excited to build upon that audience with ESPN."
Yea, and ESPN also broadcasts the July 4th Hotdog Eating contest. And i know that better than MLG. Yea, MLG is successful, but what I'm concerned about is will they be able to support SC2 long-term? To put it better, are they committed to promoting SC2 as a long-term mainstay in their program? I don't know, but I know Kespa will. That's why I'm iffy about MLG. The fact that their only PC game in the pro circuit, as far as I know, is WoW doesn't help either.
Your absolutely right! My only comfort is that I'm confident they will support any game as long as it has fan support. In the past they supported Shadowrun and brought it back several times because there were a few diehard fans demanding it. But they were few in numbers and it did eventually die. This however won't be the case with Starcraft, it's endless legoins of fans will support it for god knows how long and I believe they will as long as that condition is met.
I'm just gonna post what I found in the SC2 forums, and I'm just gonna wait and see. Please, Blizzard and Kespa, think about the players.
"Blizzard already has enough money, and it's never, NEVER a good idea to allow anyone invested in the game or a team to handle organizing or broadcasting a sport. If we allow Blizzard to organize they won't pick the most entertaining players, they'll pick the ones they can convince to push their product, and the broadcasts will be swamped with commercials for their games. You NEED a neutral third party to handle organizing and broadcasting the tournaments, and kespa fits. This is why the MLB or NFL don't have their own channels, we get coverage from a third party like ESPN instead who put entertainment (i.e. ratings) before commercialism.
If it were still the 90s I would totally trust Blizz with doing whatever they want, they could do no wrong. But after Burning Crusade... I'm skeptical SC2 won't gut all my favorite characters for not appealing to every last one of the potential 10 gazillion "consumers" and screw over the balancing because the noobs didn't want to bother with the early game and just want to play fastest and send BCs and Carriers at each other. "
On May 04 2010 08:11 Count9 wrote: This topic is so confusing, I was happy before I read this, I just blamed everything on activision.
hahaha! <3 Ever since Robert Kotick made his $100 million franchise exploit games comment I've completely hated Activision and the Activision half of Activision Blizzard. I understand for-profit, but ffs.
Sounds like Blizzard wants to become like FIA/Formula 1. Absolutely controlling over an entire division of sport. Establishing yearly contracts with organizations to keep the money flow coming in while the other party is quite literally held hostage.
I agree with royalties, but Blizzard is asking too much. Blizzard makes games. KeSPA is a sports/players league. Blizzard should set up its own league if it wants to control something to this extent.
Blizzard should infact foster league creation around the world, considering how easy it is to get into SC2. Blizzard wanting all this control and payouts will only stifle people into rejecting Blizzard and eventually its games.
lol its obvious blizzard wants some money from sc1. Leave sc1 then, we will see whether blizzard can make sc2 the worldwide esports. I don't think the koreans will replace for sc2, they are sc1 mad enough. The US always like to intervene in everything and nothing good comes out usually. I made money selling d2 items in the past too, when someone make money other people usually set rules to stop it.
Look at how sc2 is structured, they obviously want to follow the korean model and broadcast it, we'll see how the 'esports' become famous.
Just because Blizzard made the game does NOT mean it is always right, will always do the right thing. If Blizzard is given 2 choices, profit but at the expense of the happiness of the buyers of its games, it will choose profit before blinking an eye. Blizzard will choose profit before anything, even if the health and prosperity of esports could possibly be compromised.
KeSPA did a good job getting eSports where it is today, but their decision making and shit is just awful. Choosing between Blizzard and KeSPA is like choosing between good and evil, im not sure Blizzard has what it takes to make Starcraft 2 into an eSport. Even after seeing them fail miserably with Warcraft 3 (They didn't actually FAIL but it could have been oh so much better) i still believe in them more then KeSPA.
KeSPA is what is killing Starcraft 1 right now, they worry me more then the betting scandal.
On May 04 2010 16:05 KinosJourney2 wrote: KeSPA did a good job getting eSports where it is today, but their decision making and shit is just awful. Choosing between Blizzard and KeSPA is like choosing between good and evil, im not sure Blizzard has what it takes to make Starcraft 2 into an eSport. Even after seeing them fail miserably with Warcraft 3 (They didn't actually FAIL but it could have been oh so much better) i still believe in them more then KeSPA.
KeSPA is what is killing Starcraft 1 right now, they worry me more then the betting scandal.
No, it's closer to deciding which is the lesser of the two evils.
On May 04 2010 16:05 KinosJourney2 wrote: KeSPA did a good job getting eSports where it is today, but their decision making and shit is just awful. Choosing between Blizzard and KeSPA is like choosing between good and evil, im not sure Blizzard has what it takes to make Starcraft 2 into an eSport. Even after seeing them fail miserably with Warcraft 3 (They didn't actually FAIL but it could have been oh so much better) i still believe in them more then KeSPA.
KeSPA is what is killing Starcraft 1 right now, they worry me more then the betting scandal.
Haha, you seriously think Blizzard will do well? Look at WoW arena as an example. They pushed it as much as they pushed it. WoW has 11 million subscribers. It still failed. Viewers of WoW arena are peanuts compared to what BW does. Now, Arena is dying and blizzard's "muscle" is no where to be found in propping it up. Fact is that blizzard has no vested interest in making esports more than just a temporary marketing tool for their games. Thats all they see it as. Once the benefits are gone or reduced to a minimum, they will leave and move on to their next game for sure.
In the end, and this is for Korea only, Kespa has a track record. It is able to deliver. Blizzard has no record to speak of.
Well can't say I have much love for KeSPA but I think Blizzard demands here seem completely unreasonable (if they're true that is).
Basically the korean scene (OSL, MSL, Proleague etc) has done more than anything organized by Blizzard to promote StarCraft and they've made millions of dollars worth of revenue due to all that free marketing so these demands just seem downright greedy to me.
I think (although it's just speculation) that Blizzard realizes how important the korean scene is for their product and now they want to control it cause they're probably scared to death of the possibility that KeSPA won't switch over to SC2 most likely losing them a ton of revenue.
I really, really don't like KeSPA, but ont the other way I think Blizzard is really making some crappy demands.
Yes Blizzard is an enterprise and it's goal is to make money, but here they are trying to steal it with asking for royalties on broadcast. Blizzard is only the developper of the game, when you buy it, it's totally normal they get money, but if people, player etc... are making money on the use they made of the game they buy, then the money is theirs.
Just think of it guys, it's like if you buy some music instrument, become a great musician with it and make a lot of money with selling your albums and then, the compagny which had sold you the instrument ask you for money from each CD you sell. That's not fair, the money you get is from what you create with your musician talent, this is why people pay for when they buy your CD. If you just don't accept this, you have to say that every people who make money with things they buy must pay royalties... That's nonsense
So for Starcraft, the money people get by the use of the game, cannot be taken by those who conceived and sell it.
Anyway in this conflit both side seems to me pretty uggly, even I understand that without KeSPA there won't be such a developped starcraft Esport in Korea and in the other way without Blizzard there won't be such wonderfull game, both really have really indecent attitude.
With buying Starcraft: Broodwar you bought a Forever-Use-Licence with all casting rights. You can not change that contract 15 years after the game was published.
BUT: Blizzard won't do that mistake again. 15 years ago you couldnt tell the future, but with SCII we will probably buy shorter Licences with no Telecasting-Rights (Probably Internetstreaming will be limited to non commercial use or something). and in 3-Something Years or with the addon the contracts will be changed again, fitting the new age.
On May 04 2010 16:05 KinosJourney2 wrote: KeSPA did a good job getting eSports where it is today, but their decision making and shit is just awful. Choosing between Blizzard and KeSPA is like choosing between good and evil, im not sure Blizzard has what it takes to make Starcraft 2 into an eSport. Even after seeing them fail miserably with Warcraft 3 (They didn't actually FAIL but it could have been oh so much better) i still believe in them more then KeSPA.
KeSPA is what is killing Starcraft 1 right now, they worry me more then the betting scandal.
No, it's closer to deciding which is the lesser of the two evils.
On May 04 2010 16:05 KinosJourney2 wrote: KeSPA did a good job getting eSports where it is today, but their decision making and shit is just awful. Choosing between Blizzard and KeSPA is like choosing between good and evil, im not sure Blizzard has what it takes to make Starcraft 2 into an eSport. Even after seeing them fail miserably with Warcraft 3 (They didn't actually FAIL but it could have been oh so much better) i still believe in them more then KeSPA.
KeSPA is what is killing Starcraft 1 right now, they worry me more then the betting scandal.
No, it's closer to deciding which is the lesser of the two evils.
Hahahaha.
Look in your heart. You know this to be true (Vader).
I've said this before and I'll say it again. Why the hell is so many of you have this notion that sc2 can't be supported outside of south korea and with kespa holding it's hand?
You realize Sc was doing things before kespa right?
Sc2 doesn't need Kespa and the reason Blizzard went to them in the first place is because they where already established. I don't trust Kespa to run sc2 properly and it's obvious blizzard doesn't either.
Luckly enough, money> any kind of solidarity of Kespa. Players and companies will go where money is to be made and if you think sc2 isn't going to be a cash cow the world over you may need to see a doctor about this case of sudden blindness.
I trust blizzard more then Kespa on the fact Blizzard hasn't upset me as much.
Free Agency bs, msl power outage, pp incident, Gomtv forced out, and most recently match fixing.
Worst thing blizzard done can it compare to any of that? Honestly, I don't care if you didn't like Wrath or Burning crusade or you think blizzard is evil because they are with activision..has anything they've done compared to things like treating Jaedong like a slave and Mafia style shutout of gom?
It reminds me how in the early 90s there was the new music wave down in Seattle, and how bands started popping out of basements (like players) and started creating extraordinary music which the whole world learned to love and then big bad label companies came wanting to sign them for more albums. So this is like players creating E-sports and then kespa coming to claim rights over that... What happened eventually these big companies destroyed morale of the musicians and the whole thing blew off...
E-sport is too young to be destroyed, kespa. Come on.
eh, i think both sides are talking big because they don't have any firm legal ground. It's such a murky area, dealing with 3 really confusing things: intellectual property international copyright esports, never really happened before
So they'll probably make a show at taking it to trial, but then back down when they realize how long and expensive that is, and strike a deal that kespa will pay royalties while retaining control over the korean market.
On May 04 2010 16:45 Parnage wrote: I've said this before and I'll say it again. Why the hell is so many of you have this notion that sc2 can't be supported outside of south korea and with kespa holding it's hand?
You realize Sc was doing things before kespa right?
Sc2 doesn't need Kespa and the reason Blizzard went to them in the first place is because they where already established. I don't trust Kespa to run sc2 properly and it's obvious blizzard doesn't either.
Luckly enough, money> any kind of solidarity of Kespa. Players and companies will go where money is to be made and if you think sc2 isn't going to be a cash cow the world over you may need to see a doctor about this case of sudden blindness.
I trust blizzard more then Kespa on the fact Blizzard hasn't upset me as much.
Free Agency bs, msl power outage, pp incident, Gomtv forced out, and most recently match fixing.
Worst thing blizzard done can it compare to any of that? Honestly, I don't care if you didn't like Wrath or Burning crusade or you think blizzard is evil because they are with activision..has anything they've done compared to things like treating Jaedong like a slave and Mafia style shutout of gom?
On May 04 2010 07:42 Railz wrote: How long before it will be before some moron says, "but Kespa created esports, Blizzard needs them" Kespa didn't create esports, the players did. Playing under harsh conditions with no pay, yet having the Charisma to get the government to back them is what made Kespa.
Blizzard could have ended this a long time ago and never did, all they did prior to SC2 was try and limit how much KeSPA claimed rights over it. Now blizzard is cutting them from the get go.
Ok so it's no problem if kespa quits? KESPA IS NOT NEEDED?
KeSPA just needs to wait. BW is not dead in SK and wont be in a long time, if ever. SC2 is the one having to prove something. So far it looks like a good game for playing, but an awful one for watching. It become a 1a game (no 2a3a... ) with two giant balls of units shooting at each other. Just boring. In best case scenario, SC2 ends up like WC3, with some tournaments now and then, but nothing serious like progaming.
On May 04 2010 16:45 Parnage wrote: I've said this before and I'll say it again. Why the hell is so many of you have this notion that sc2 can't be supported outside of south korea and with kespa holding it's hand?
You realize Sc was doing things before kespa right?
Sc2 doesn't need Kespa and the reason Blizzard went to them in the first place is because they where already established. I don't trust Kespa to run sc2 properly and it's obvious blizzard doesn't either.
Luckly enough, money> any kind of solidarity of Kespa. Players and companies will go where money is to be made and if you think sc2 isn't going to be a cash cow the world over you may need to see a doctor about this case of sudden blindness.
I trust blizzard more then Kespa on the fact Blizzard hasn't upset me as much.
Free Agency bs, msl power outage, pp incident, Gomtv forced out, and most recently match fixing.
Worst thing blizzard done can it compare to any of that? Honestly, I don't care if you didn't like Wrath or Burning crusade or you think blizzard is evil because they are with activision..has anything they've done compared to things like treating Jaedong like a slave and Mafia style shutout of gom?
Who would you trust?
I have that notion because I don't see good alternatives. Blizzard's #1 goal is money, and money NOW. That means that Blizzard will milk the Starcraft Esports of every dollar it can get, then do something else. Just look at what they did to WoW and you'll see.
Kespa was founded in 1999 to facilitate the growth of Esports, and despite all the bumps on the road, overall they did one heck of a job. Can you name any company or country where an organization will be committed to the growth of E-sports like Kespa was? Please prove me wrong, because we need alternatives.
On May 04 2010 07:42 Railz wrote: How long before it will be before some moron says, "but Kespa created esports, Blizzard needs them" Kespa didn't create esports, the players did. Playing under harsh conditions with no pay, yet having the Charisma to get the government to back them is what made Kespa.
Blizzard could have ended this a long time ago and never did, all they did prior to SC2 was try and limit how much KeSPA claimed rights over it. Now blizzard is cutting them from the get go.
Ok so it's no problem if kespa quits? KESPA IS NOT NEEDED?
EXACTLY!!!
We don't need them, they get way to much credit for esports IMO! The FANS make esports what it is, the quality of the game and the quality of the players too. When your government decides to build a bridge do they deserve the credit? They paid YOUR money to SOMEONE ELSE to build it. Kespa makes money by broadcasting GAMERS they control through licenses playing a game SOMEONE ELSE created. The fans love and support make this all possible. Not kespa!
On May 04 2010 17:00 nimoraca wrote: KeSPA just needs to wait. BW is not dead in SK and wont be in a long time, if ever. SC2 is the one having to prove something. So far it looks like a good game for playing, but an awful one for watching. It become a 1a game (no 2a3a... ) with two giant balls of units shooting at each other. Just boring. In best case scenario, SC2 ends up like WC3, with some tournaments now and then, but nothing serious like progaming.
No way man, SC2 already killed wc3 and bw's non-korean scene.. theres already money tournaments just in the beta. Anyone who does not think that SC 2 is gonna be huge is living under a rock ;( oh yeah...and sc2 is really fun too 8) and.. its kind of nice not needing 400 apm to be pro
What amazes me is how most of you don't even see a problem in single company creating the games and monopolizing the gaming pro scene. That's such a clear conflict of interests. What they really want is not to take any risks in investing money in pro scene, but still control the scene if someone else creates it. There are tones of companies much larger than Blizz/Activision that already have a lot invested in SCBW. Don't expect to capture the market without them Blizz.
On May 04 2010 16:45 Parnage wrote: I've said this before and I'll say it again. Why the hell is so many of you have this notion that sc2 can't be supported outside of south korea and with kespa holding it's hand?
You realize Sc was doing things before kespa right?
Sc2 doesn't need Kespa and the reason Blizzard went to them in the first place is because they where already established. I don't trust Kespa to run sc2 properly and it's obvious blizzard doesn't either.
Luckly enough, money> any kind of solidarity of Kespa. Players and companies will go where money is to be made and if you think sc2 isn't going to be a cash cow the world over you may need to see a doctor about this case of sudden blindness.
I trust blizzard more then Kespa on the fact Blizzard hasn't upset me as much.
Free Agency bs, msl power outage, pp incident, Gomtv forced out, and most recently match fixing.
Worst thing blizzard done can it compare to any of that? Honestly, I don't care if you didn't like Wrath or Burning crusade or you think blizzard is evil because they are with activision..has anything they've done compared to things like treating Jaedong like a slave and Mafia style shutout of gom?
Who would you trust?
I have that notion because I don't see good alternatives. Blizzard's #1 goal is money, and money NOW. That means that Blizzard will milk the Starcraft Esports of every dollar it can get, then do something else. Just look at what they did to WoW and you'll see.
Kespa was founded in 1999 to facilitate the growth of Esports, and despite all the bumps on the road, overall they did one heck of a job. Can you name any company or country where an organization will be committed to the growth of E-sports like Kespa was? Please prove me wrong, because we need alternatives.
Alternative check out my previous posts in this thread there are links to a bunch of other promising stuff!
interesting how people presume blizzard is a company thats goal is to be nice to people and make them happy, while actualy being part of a major corporation that is traded at the stock exchange. (which by default excludes moraly controlled actions but leaves profit oriented decision making only) true, vivendi holds the majority of the stock and morhaine seems to have a decent releationship towards the activision blizzard ceo's but still there is shareholder interest.
i am not saying that kespa are the good guys. you would have to whack yourself on the head (with something hard and heavy) upteen times to forget how they have shown their face in the past.
i also do not believe that kespa "created" esports. to me it seems like a cultural phenomena in south korea (people are just crazy about computer/video games) that kespa is taking advantage of or in other words, they just filled the gap (by all means one has to admit). and they sure wont want to give a us based corporation that much influence over on aspect of korean culture, which i can more than understand.
so i am with the korean people here. (kespa *** off) hopefully it turns out well for them after the greedy struggle is resolved.
On May 04 2010 17:00 nimoraca wrote: KeSPA just needs to wait. BW is not dead in SK and wont be in a long time, if ever. SC2 is the one having to prove something. So far it looks like a good game for playing, but an awful one for watching. It become a 1a game (no 2a3a... ) with two giant balls of units shooting at each other. Just boring. In best case scenario, SC2 ends up like WC3, with some tournaments now and then, but nothing serious like progaming.
No way man, SC2 already killed wc3 and bw's non-korean scene.. theres already money tournaments just in the beta. Anyone who does not think that SC 2 is gonna be huge is living under a rock ;( oh yeah...and sc2 is really fun too 8) and.. its kind of nice not needing 400 apm to be pro
Its not nice for the people being here on TL.net and watching SCBW for 10 years. And, on the side note, WC3 and SCBW non korean scenes were gone long before SC2 Beta came out. SCBW and WC3 also had money tournamnets at the beginning. I played a few myself. And it still died like any other million selling game outside of Korea. You just got it wrong. I'm not saying the game wont be popular (hell Farmville is popular). I'm just saying it wont become a professional playing sport like SCBW in Korea is, and by professional I mean where people can actually earn their living by just playing the game. Don't tell me WC3 and SCBW players outside of Korea could ever do that.
SCBW would've died years ago without KeSPA, so will StarCraft II simply because western players are very volatile, with the exception of the small bunch (maybe 150k-200k), S.Korea as well as China and possibly Japan would easily be the biggest markets for StarCraft II, if the 18+ adult rating wasn't issued.
As for Blizzard's demands, they are quite substantial, even for US (not sure about S.K law). What puzzles me is the proposed 1 year deal only, perhaps they want to fiddle with add-ons and expansions somehow, in a major way.
This comes down to an issue of power. Blizzard wants the power to cut its slice of the cake, and protect its image. It does not want to attach itself to the image of pro-gamers (10-14 hours a day) and bad sponsors (imagine if they were backed by cigarettes or something, Marlboro MSL), and corruption (KeSPA, bribes, and sandbagging).
KeSPA wants blizzard not to do all those things above. They think, "its our sandbox."
As far as I understand it the 1 year thing is that Kespa would have to renegotiate their contract every year, meaning Blizzard could really turn on the thumbscrews by threatening to withdraw their licence. From what I've heard from both sides thus far I'm going to have to side with Kespa on this one.
Reborn8u, i thought I already told you about that. I'm iffy about that, but I hope you're right for all our sakes. Your saying about the hardcore fans demanding a game multiple times didn't convince me.
Also, Kespa didn't just "fill the void." They were instrumental in molding Esports as a major television program that generates revenue. Without them, SC would've been just that, a phenomenon, destined to die after 2 years at best. Give Kespa credit where it's due (some might think what credit, but they don't have the whole picture). Without comparable system and support for SC2, I fear that SC2 will just be.. a fad. It'll just be another game.
On May 04 2010 08:05 XsebT wrote: I wish ESPORTS would be more like any other sport... for example, when you buy a Nike football, racket or whatever, it isn't up to Nike to decide what you do with their product - You actually own that specific product. For this to work of course, Blizzard shouldn't be the ones who provide the servers for their product, just like Nike doesn't provide the soccer field and thus aren't in control of what's happening on that field. You may argue, that there's an obvious difference between a football and a Starcraft. But I believe that's only because Blizzard, unfortunally, are allowed total control of the possessions you have bought from them. This is obviously because Blizzard, like any other company, much more interested in your money than ESPORTS in general. Not to say they don't care about ESPORTS at all though.
Yes but do you agree to an eula when you buy a football? Also when you buy said football can you use the nike images in your advertisements?
zul: lol. Why did KeSPA block the GOM TV Classics? Fans loved it! Any participating player would have been kicked out of his team which would have been his career-end.
^ zul: lol. Why did KeSPA block the GOM TV Classics? Fans loved it! Any participating player would have been kicked out of his team which would have been his career-end.
Because Blizzard took major sponsorship of it and was attempting to build a platform for SC2 broadcasts in Korea without KeSPA and MBC/OGN etc.
On May 04 2010 11:41 DatTheMighty wrote: I see everyone is just assuming sc2 is going to hit it big as an esports. I think some of you guys are having quite a thin notion of what Esports is. I am sure Sc2 will do as well as Wc3 or maybe better but will it be an Esports? Esports to me is year round multiple leagues with thousands of live fans at finals, two sports Channel broadcasting 24/7 (ogn, mbcgame), while some of you think if it has few tournaments here and there it should be called esports.
Agreed, the perfection that is BW was an accident.
I'm sceptical as to SC2 sucess as a perfectly balanced game like BW
Don't even start this discussion. BW's success was an accident or not didn't matter, Blizzard created it.
Even when an idiot invented something great he still deserves everything from his invention.
Except that not only is the success of BW not an accident, it's also not solely Blizzard's prize to hold. It was the fact that Korea loved the game so much, got sponsors interested, refined the balance of the game to what it is today using maps, etc etc... years of work to build up to what we have today. Besides, Blizzard is getting plenty out of the deal, and that's even beyond the ridiculous amount of free advertising they get from it. The idea behind eSports is supposed to be that games that get popular due to eSports end up selling more copies as a result, and improve the reputation of game designers' like Blizzard (allowing them to further profit off future sales).
It's like half the people posting don't have any clue about the history behind this discussion...
On May 04 2010 13:47 jpak wrote: Honestly, all this negativity towards Kespa here is beginning to make me sick. Yea, you're mad that they killed GOM. They had the power outage incident and the "ppp" incident. But let me remind you: THIS SPORT IS STILL RELATIVELY YOUNG!!! E-sports only began in Korea in 1998 - that's only 12 years people. Sports evolve and be refined over decades. In American Football, for example, the challenge system only came into being in 1999. The NFL just voted in March for new overtime rules. In fact, I was actually madder while watching "The Tuck Rule" game than the power outage crap. Are we not allowed to learn from mistakes people? And especially after the power outage incident, Kespa will be very keen not to make mistakes.
I'm not going to comment on copyright issues, cause I know squat. I'm just suggesting that you get over any blind hate you have for Kespa for killing GOM before posting further.
To be honest, some American sports are still just as bad. When games in the NBA and NFL can still be swung one way or the other by blatantly terrible (or malicious even) officiating, it's hard to take them seriously. I mean just objectively take a look at Vikings vs Saints from last year's playoffs, Kings vs Lakers in 2002 (game 6 specifically), things like that... it's not even reasonable. None of the gaffes so far we've seen in eSports compare except for (depending on the actual circumstances) the possible match rigging/betting scandal.
On May 04 2010 17:00 nimoraca wrote: KeSPA just needs to wait. BW is not dead in SK and wont be in a long time, if ever. SC2 is the one having to prove something.
This is so true. SC2 has to prove it can be mentioned in the same breath as BW in order to make any significant impact on the eSports scene there. Should SC2 take over just because Blizzard wants it to?
On May 04 2010 17:00 nimoraca wrote: KeSPA just needs to wait. BW is not dead in SK and wont be in a long time, if ever. SC2 is the one having to prove something. So far it looks like a good game for playing, but an awful one for watching. It become a 1a game (no 2a3a... ) with two giant balls of units shooting at each other. Just boring. In best case scenario, SC2 ends up like WC3, with some tournaments now and then, but nothing serious like progaming.
No way man, SC2 already killed wc3 and bw's non-korean scene.. theres already money tournaments just in the beta. Anyone who does not think that SC 2 is gonna be huge is living under a rock ;( oh yeah...and sc2 is really fun too 8) and.. its kind of nice not needing 400 apm to be pro
This is a force of will, and not some innate quality of the SC2 beta. WC3 has never had the scene it dreamed of having due to spectator and map stagnation, balance issues, and too many random features impacting true competition. As for BW, all of the foreign players are switching to SC2 and hoping to become top players in it, all because it offers some kind of potential future that playing BW lacks (due to the difficulty of becoming a progamer in Korea).
As for GOM being cancelled, I wouldn't be surprised if the players themselves played a part in it. After all, that's another league to prepare for. Most progamers are already tied up with Proleague, OSL, and MSL. There just aren't enough hours in a day to fit in GOM. Of course I could be wrong, because I don't know what exactly goes on in one of the progaming houses, but I would suspect that the health of players is a top priority.
On May 04 2010 17:46 jpak wrote: Of course I could be wrong, because I don't know what exactly goes on in one of the progaming houses, but I would suspect that the health of players is a top priority.
On May 04 2010 17:46 jpak wrote: As for GOM being cancelled, I wouldn't be surprised if the players themselves played a part in it. After all, that's another league to prepare for. Most progamers are already tied up with Proleague, OSL, and MSL. There just aren't enough hours in a day to fit in GOM. Of course I could be wrong, because I don't know what exactly goes on in one of the progaming houses, but I would suspect that the health of players is a top priority.
You couldnt be more wrong. Hundreds of less talented pro gamers and B teamers have been practicing hard for years and never had a chance in Proleague/Starleague. GOM brought a lot of players like that to the spotlight (Idra!). Shutting down GOM was one of the most obvious evidence that KeSPA doesn't work for the progamers's best interests.
On May 04 2010 17:46 jpak wrote: As for GOM being cancelled, I wouldn't be surprised if the players themselves played a part in it. After all, that's another league to prepare for. Most progamers are already tied up with Proleague, OSL, and MSL. There just aren't enough hours in a day to fit in GOM. Of course I could be wrong, because I don't know what exactly goes on in one of the progaming houses, but I would suspect that the health of players is a top priority.
This was definitely something discussed on TL at the time, especially in light of the ridiculous schedule Jaedong was up against with MSL semis, OSL finals, and PL finals (in the same month's span of his exit from GOM3). He was the clear favorite in each, but was so obviously overworked that it created the whole fiasco that ensued. Oddly enough, KeSPA lost rep for that situation too (the FA rules are still nuts).
On May 04 2010 17:46 jpak wrote: As for GOM being cancelled, I wouldn't be surprised if the players themselves played a part in it. After all, that's another league to prepare for. Most progamers are already tied up with Proleague, OSL, and MSL. There just aren't enough hours in a day to fit in GOM. Of course I could be wrong, because I don't know what exactly goes on in one of the progaming houses, but I would suspect that the health of players is a top priority.
You couldnt be more wrong. Hundreds of less talented pro gamers and B teamers have been practicing hard for years and never had a chance in Proleague/Starleague. GOM brought a lot of players like that to the spotlight (Idra!). Shutting down GOM was one of the most obvious evidence that KeSPA doesn't work for the progamers's best interests.
You can't have it both ways. Either you create a tournament where everyone is invited and have open competition, or you create a 'minor league' tournament to benefit the b-team players. GOM was offering incentives large enough that even the A-team players would not turn down the opportunity.
I understand though. Everyone is so partial to GOM because of the english language commentary (which was great for both the game and the community here at TL).
On May 04 2010 17:34 zul wrote: KeSPA: we do it for the fans.
zul: lol. Why did KeSPA block the GOM TV Classics? Fans loved it! Any participating player would have been kicked out of his team which would have been his career-end.
actually koreans dont like GOMTV... gomtv sucks lol, the coverage was suck, the korean commentary was suck, everything sucks compared to MSL or OSL lol
If Seinfeld had everyone drinking Coca-cola on the show, Coke would be extremely happy for the free advertising. Blizzard only cares about e-sports if its only on their terms. They should just be happy that their games are getting this much exposure to begin with.
Hope the negotiations will continue, Blizzard seems to make some unreasonable demands. But on the other hand you can't sell some Disney shirts without Disney approval, can you?
Blizzard should be happy with the exposure. I've never really like Blizzard as a company but they do make fine games. To bad they have to suck every little dollar out of exactly everything, they should be happy that one of their games is the ONLY one who made it this far. They shouldn't be putting a leash on it.
Game developers should not be left out from the e-sports. Their products have direct impact on the e-sport settings (I am not talking about the actual gameplay but the possibilities the game supports in terms of coverage/review/organization). Both parties seems to demand too much from each other at the moment. But this is normal as the situation is rather monopolistic. The WoW experience has prepared Blizzard to support e-sports on their own. They cannot do it however without the aid of organizations like KeSPA. So they demand a 'say' in their operations...of course I think the issue will be settled as SC2 goes gold...right now nobody is in an advantageous position.
On May 04 2010 08:05 XsebT wrote: I wish ESPORTS would be more like any other sport... for example, when you buy a Nike football, racket or whatever, it isn't up to Nike to decide what you do with their product - You actually own that specific product. For this to work of course, Blizzard shouldn't be the ones who provide the servers for their product, just like Nike doesn't provide the soccer field and thus aren't in control of what's happening on that field. You may argue, that there's an obvious difference between a football and a Starcraft. But I believe that's only because Blizzard, unfortunally, are allowed total control of the possessions you have bought from them. This is obviously because Blizzard, like any other company, much more interested in your money than ESPORTS in general. Not to say they don't care about ESPORTS at all though.
Yes but do you agree to an eula when you buy a football? Also when you buy said football can you use the nike images in your advertisements?
My post was based on what I wish would happen. The answer to both of your questions is obviously No - as of now. My wish thinking is basically that eulas should be illigal and the advertisement/copyright thing is also complete bullcrap.
If those really are the terms and conditions Blizzard demands, then I have not a single idea what they are thinking.
It just makes no sense. It would kill the industry. It would kill my incentive to take the game to the next level, or to be a fan, or to be a spectator).
When I first that blizzard was demanding kespa to give them more rights, I knew that blizzard was just being greedy here. Kespa was offering to give blizzard money for the use of their product, but blizzard just wants to have control over the progaming scene after it becomes developed. Bullshit IMO.
Sorry blizzard, but I'll have to side with kespa here. Stop trying to kill the e-sport scene!
And a lot of people don't seem to know that progaming bw is in korea, not america. Its not really under us jurisdiction. International copyright is a tricky business.
On May 04 2010 13:30 jpak wrote: Worst case scenario:
1. Blizzard pulls all the plugs from Kespa 2. Blizzard releases SC2 with the B.net 2.0 and no LAN. 3. SC2 fails to gain enough base support to grow to be successful. 4. SC2 shrivels up and dies after a couple years. 5. SC sites, such as TL.net, begin shutting down. 6. SC and SC2 become part of the history of the great E-sports experiment.
not gonna happen -_- seriously whats with these dumb posts?
On May 04 2010 07:38 Ian Ian Ian wrote: Can someone like summarize this? I don't really get whats going on
Translation of KESPA stance:
Blizzard wanted a cut of our profits in SC1, but we were able to tell them to f*ck off in the past. Now we are f*cked because SC2 is coming out, the E-Sports scene may shift to SC2, and SC2 requires battle.net connection. In other words, SC2's release can render us obsolete. Please continue the negotiations Blizzard and Mike Morhaime, we will lick your balls now.
^^^
That's pretty much it. If you didn't read between the lines, the ending of the statement to continue negotiations clearly shows who is in the driver's seat now and it ain't KESPA.
On May 04 2010 07:38 Ian Ian Ian wrote: Can someone like summarize this? I don't really get whats going on
Translation of KESPA stance:
Blizzard wanted a cut of our profits in SC1, but we were able to tell them to f*ck off in the past. Now we are f*cked because SC2 is coming out, the E-Sports scene may shift to SC2, and SC2 requires battle.net connection. In other words, SC2's release can render us obsolete. Please continue the negotiations Blizzard and Mike Morhaime, we will lick your balls now.
^^^
That's pretty much it. If you didn't read between the lines, the ending of the statement to continue negotiations clearly shows who is in the driver's seat now and it ain't KESPA.
On May 04 2010 14:01 mrdx wrote: Not sure what your point is. This is 2010, not 1850. As a profit business Blizzard can't just stand there getting nothing from KeSPA while their games are showed on 2 TV channels 24/7.
There's so many bad posts in this thread but this is a particularly funny one. I'm sure its so bad for Blizzard to have their game advertised for free on 2 channels 24/7 and all the publicity that goes with it. Also some people don't seem to realize KeSPA did pay for broadcast rights in BW in the first place with no problems, now its actually successful suddenly Blizzard has a ton of other demands without having helped or take any risk in the venture in the first place.
On May 04 2010 16:05 KinosJourney2 wrote: KeSPA did a good job getting eSports where it is today, but their decision making and shit is just awful. Choosing between Blizzard and KeSPA is like choosing between good and evil, im not sure Blizzard has what it takes to make Starcraft 2 into an eSport. Even after seeing them fail miserably with Warcraft 3 (They didn't actually FAIL but it could have been oh so much better) i still believe in them more then KeSPA.
KeSPA is what is killing Starcraft 1 right now, they worry me more then the betting scandal.
Haha, you seriously think Blizzard will do well? Look at WoW arena as an example. They pushed it as much as they pushed it. WoW has 11 million subscribers. It still failed. Viewers of WoW arena are peanuts compared to what BW does. Now, Arena is dying and blizzard's "muscle" is no where to be found in propping it up. Fact is that blizzard has no vested interest in making esports more than just a temporary marketing tool for their games. Thats all they see it as. Once the benefits are gone or reduced to a minimum, they will leave and move on to their next game for sure.
In the end, and this is for Korea only, Kespa has a track record. It is able to deliver. Blizzard has no record to speak of.
Exactly. A Blizzard-controlled SC2 proscene dies the day WC4 or whatever comes out.
On May 04 2010 16:18 Boonbag wrote: I'm astound at the overall hate and disrespect that lies beneath anti kespa comments towards Korea and Korean esports.
For people again thinking blizzard will make esports happen in several countries, just wake up.
If anything, if you're a true SC fan, and a pro gaming fan, you should bash blizzard down to the ground instead.
Agree with Boonbag. Blizzard has no track record of making E-Sports succeed - they are a game developer, not a major E-Sports company. Blizzard also does not have the history, experience, nor even media/publicity clout that KESPA has in Korea.
I don't know the details, but based on what I've read, I disagree strongly with Blizzard's stance. Korea is peanuts, compared a success of SC2 pro league in the US, or China. Since Korea IS the SC pro gaming base, I don't see why Blizzard would f*ck with your base because the window for a successful SC2 pro league to be established is small - if it doesn't happen in 1 year of SC2's release, it may not happen at all.
The only reason I can think of that Blizzard is taking a hard stance against KESPA and possibly jeapordize the success of a SC2 pro league is if they want to set a precdent for China. IMO, a possible pro league in China is very possible with SC2's release, and if you let KESPA walk over your copyrights, you are allowing a future version of KESPA in China to walk over your copyrights as well.
Obviously problem is not the licensing fees, as KeSPA already paid for SCBW. The problem is completely unrealistic terms under which Blizz expects somebody to organize the leagues. Or are these terms just for KeSPA? Is WCG going to have to accept the same bullshit terms KeSPA has. If that turns out to be the case I'm not sure WCG will ever see SC2 . To organize a professional league(s) you need stable terms and conditions, and Blizz is giving rights on a year basis. Nothing is stopping Blizz for asking ten times as much next year if SC2 becomes pro sport. There is not a single serious company/organization in the world that would accept all the risks, invest its own money, to create a professional scene under these terms. Risks highly outweigh the benefits. Blizz has sold half of the SCBW copies of all sold copies in Korea during the last ten years or so. It has made at least $150 mil of it. If that is not enough, than fuck Blizzard and SC2. Real fans still have SCBW and best possible quality of games ever played on the planet.
disregarding what the law says about this and that since i don't know shit about that. Blizzard should stick to making good games and getting people to buy them, and just stay out of everything else.
On May 04 2010 19:23 nimoraca wrote: Obviously problem is not the licensing fees, as KeSPA already paid for SCBW. The problem is completely unrealistic terms under which Blizz expects somebody to organize the leagues. Or are these terms just for KeSPA? Is WCG going to have to accept the same bullshit terms KeSPA has. If that turns out to be the case I'm not sure WCG will ever see SC2 . To organize a professional league(s) you need stable terms and conditions, and Blizz is giving rights on a year basis. Nothing is stopping Blizz for asking ten times as much next year if SC2 becomes pro sport. There is not a single serious company/organization in the world that would accept all the risks, invest its own money, to create a professional scene under these terms. Risks highly outweigh the benefits. Blizz has sold half of the SCBW copies of all sold copies in Korea during the last ten years or so. It has made at least $150 mil of it. If that is not enough, than fuck Blizzard and SC2. Real fans still have SCBW and best possible quality of games ever played on the planet.
Thread is way too long to read right now, but isn't KeSPA made of teams' representatives? People like to remember KeSPA not allowing GOM, but there was a list of teams that wanted no part in GOM, STX included. Progamers have too many games as is it now, one extra league would be just child slavering. Remember when BoxeR talked to about about a progamer's union?
And if Blizzard actually wanted that much control, they are money-hungry capitalists. If they sell as much SC2 in Korea as BW, it's because of the Esports, and Esports is where it is because (or some would prefer, despite) of KeSPA.
EDIT: Some are wondering how will SC2 affect Korea. Well, Blizzard doesn't release a special LAN version for the esports scene, watch as SC2 never gets popular and we'll see 10 more years of BW, if the public sticks around for so long.
On May 04 2010 19:28 nttea wrote: disregarding what the law says about this and that since i don't know shit about that. Blizzard should stick to making good games and getting people to buy them, and just stay out of everything else.
On May 04 2010 19:28 nttea wrote: disregarding what the law says about this and that since i don't know shit about that. Blizzard should stick to making good games and getting people to buy them, and just stay out of everything else.
Totally agree, as much as I am clueless about all this shizz I have some feeling this is the best scenario for everyone.
I will NEVER forgive KeSpa for killing GOM, die KeSpa. Furthermore the whole thread is based on a KeSpa statement (which I don't really trust), I would love to see the Blizzard version of it.
Would be nice is KeSPA was replaced by something a bit more positive.
But it would be a shame to see Blizzard having total control over E-Sports.
My main gripe against KeSPA is that they don't make any effort to cater for fans outside of South Korea, which are probably the majority of fans.
Main problem with Blizzard is that they treat their customers like dirt and probably one of the greediest companies in the world. Yes they make good games but their customer service is pretty horrendous and the lack of information about their games coming up in future is astounding. Would definately be much much worse if Blizzard came out on top in this "fight"...
as stated before blizzard activision is a corporation that is traded at the stock exchange. hence they have to maximize profits. only reason for blizzard to forfeit their outragious claims would be if they would make less profit due to whatever (bad image, less sold sc2 copies, you name it)
hence giving sc2 a 18+ rating in s.korea is cutting their profit to a certain amount (and it is basically the ONLY thing korea can do as it adresses blizzards profits). the question is: will it be more expensive than letting go of making money through pro gaming?
as of now it seems they dont know yet as it is extremely hard to predict. according to blizzards stance in the future we will know what is cheaper for them... gotta love economics
On May 04 2010 20:09 Necrosjef wrote: Would be nice is KeSPA was replaced by something a bit more positive.
But it would be a shame to see Blizzard having total control over E-Sports.
My main gripe against KeSPA is that they don't make any effort to cater for fans outside of South Korea, which are probably the majority of fans.
Main problem with Blizzard is that they treat their customers like dirt and probably one of the greediest companies in the world. Yes they make good games but their customer service is pretty horrendous and the lack of information about their games coming up in future is astounding. Would definately be much much worse if Blizzard came out on top in this "fight"...
Why whould they fucking care about fans outside of South Korea, srsly? And how?
On May 04 2010 14:54 Jonoman92 wrote: Thanks for keeping us informed Waxangel.
I can't say I completely or even partially understand all the different things going on in this Blizzard vs. KeSPA battle. However, I support Blizzard because they are the ones who make the game(s) I love. Also, KeSPA DQ's people for typing and accidentally pausing during games and that is fucking bullshit. If anything they should encourage smack talk, especially if they want to even pretend it is somewhat sport-like. Like really, why can't you make decision on a case by case basis.
So you're willing to have the whole SC scene die because of a few questionable decisions by the refs? Having disagreements with them is one thing, simply wanting them to disappear seems exaggerated, especially when you also want a totally inexperienced and unproven company to take the reins.
If you're unhappy about some of KeSPA's decisions, you'll probably be raging when Blizzard controls everything. And KeSPA is purely a Korean organization -- Blizzard's gatekeeping will have a worldwide reach.
As a veteran, your hate for KeSPA is just encouraging newbs who never followed the scene to jump on the bandwagon and bash pro SC altogether with increasingly absurd statements.
On May 04 2010 20:14 torfteufel wrote: as stated before blizzard activision is a corporation that is traded at the stock exchange. hence they have to maximize profits. only reason for blizzard to forfeit their outragious claims would be if they would make less profit due to whatever (bad image, less sold sc2 copies, you name it)
hence giving sc2 a 18+ rating in s.korea is cutting their profit to a certain amount (and it is basically the ONLY thing korea can do as it adresses blizzards profits). the question is: will it be more expensive than letting go of making money through pro gaming?
as of now it seems they dont know yet as it is extremely hard to predict. according to blizzards stance in the future we will know what is cheaper for them... gotta love economics
Blizzard wants control over KeSPA's practices, tournament organization, plus royalties. Given how KePSA has been treating players and screwing up tournaments as well as securing themselves a comfortable monopoly over all tournaments, I think letting Blizzard approve KeSPA's actions is a good idea.
For clarification, I'm under the impression that while KeSPA makes up a good number of ESports teams, they are more representative of the sponser-side than the player-side. Of course, the players themselves will not object because they have no leverage against the powers in charge. It's like labor without a labor union. Letting Blizzard manage KeSPA's practices will probably change things for the better. At least it's a step away from what KeSPA has been doing.
Free Agency <-- I'm totally agree with this, KeSPA is fucking asshole with FA players...
MSL Powerr outage <-- This have nothing to do with KeSPA, MBC Channel got fucked up
PP incident <-- the referee from KeSPA did nothing wrong. yes, the guy who made the rule is an idiot, but KeSPA fixed ppp rules immediately after the accident
GomTV forced out <-- GomTV was poorly organized, yes, it has english commentaries but like I said before, their korean commentary sucks...Players already got overworked, so its not a big deal either for them or korean fans, if GomTV doesnt even exist. Ofcs its very sad for foreign fans, but why would KeSPA care about foreign fans?
What will probably ensue if Blizzard gets its way is opening up of many more tournaments across different broadcasting venues and greater freedom for teams and players to participate in different tournaments.
This is because of what each group is after. KeSPA is concerned about control over players and broadcasting, meaning they will aim to constrict ESports under their control. Blizzard, on the other hand, is concerned about spreading their product to many people across different demographics. So, they will be more apt to expand broadcasting (remember they are not as concerned about limiting broadcast rights) and encourage more players and teams in more tournaments.
As I see it: the alternative to Blizzard is Westwood, the alternative to Kespa is Gom. I know which one I'd happily toss out, and which one I'd never trade.
And what does Kespa even do? OGN/MBC cast and organize the tournaments. The players all got their sponsor based teams.
Imagine TSL: TL organizes the tourney, makes sure there are casters. The players all practiced in their teams (EG, TOT, etc). Then there would be this FESPA organisation who would somehow make up rules here and there and rake in a fair % of the money. What?
Gom is no longer an alternative to Kespa - CJ owns Gom now (and OGN!), and CJ is part of Kespa
but...CJ doesn't seem to be Kespa's strongest supporter? Still, Kespa's statement about its unity seems strong and I think CJ will go along with Kespa.
And I would hazard to guess that Kespa isn't designed to make money - instead it's like an industry organization to represent the interests of its members and help THEM make money. That is, SK group, KT, OGN (CJ), MBC, etc.
I have an idea. TL representatives should speak with Blizzard about the property rights of broadcast material for TSL 3. That way we can find out what Blizzard would actually demand. (yes, a silly idea, but it would look good in a blockbuster movie)
I find it interesting that this is framed as solely a copyright question, when this issue also seems to have a considerable trademark dynamic to it also. Anyways, I don't know if I buy the derivative work argument from a U.S. law perspective. Ignoring the baseball argument, corporate copyright holders that are registered after 2002 have either a term 95 years from publication or 120 years from creation, whichever expires first.
To establish a prima facie case of copyright infringement, a plaintiff must demonstrate “(1) ownership of a valid copyright, and (2) copying of constituent elements of the work that are original.” The element of copying has two components: first, the plaintiff must establish actual copying by either direct or indirect evidence; then, the plaintiff must establish that the copying amounts to an improper or unlawful appropriation. The plaintiff demonstrates that the copying is actionable “by showing that the second work bears a ‘substantial similarity’ to protected expression in the earlier work.
The appropriate inquiry under the substantial similarity test is whether “the copying is quantitatively and qualitatively sufficient to support the legal conclusion that infringement (actionable copying) has occurred. The quantitative component addresses the amount of the copyrighted work that is copied, while the qualitative component addresses the copying of protected expression, as opposed to unprotected ideas or facts.
The derivative work argument: Basically analysis starts with 17 U.S.C § 106(2) which gives the copyright owner the exclusive right to prepare derivative works based upon the copyrighted work. However, under 17 U.S.C. § 103(b), the copyright in a compilation or derivative work extends only to the material contributed by the author of such work, as distinguished from the preexisting material employed in the work, and does not imply any exclusive right in the preexisting material. The copyright in such work is independent of, and does not affect or enlarge the scope, duration, ownership, or subsistence of, any copyright protection in the preexisting material. Courts have held that sequels or parodies are derivative works (however there may be a fair use defense which gets complicated). In one particular case, Micro Star v. FormGen the Court actually dealt with derivative works with respects to software. FormGen had a copyright in Duke Nukem 3D, and Micro Star used the build editor to create more map files. Micro Star argued that the files did not contain any images from the games but just instructions on how to rearrange images, but the court did not buy it. The court stated “The work that Micro Star infringes is the Duke Nukem 3D-story itself – a beefy commando type named Duke who wanders around post-Apocalypse Los Angeles, shooting Pig Cops with a gun, lobbing hand grenades…A copyright owner has the right to create sequels and the stories told in the Duke Nukem 3D MAP files are surely sequels telling new (though somewhat repetitive) tales of Duke’s fabulous adventures.”
Is TL(or iccup) guilty of copyright infringement or trademark infringement? Not that Blizzard would actually prosecute people that helped them out (TL generates interest in SC and SC2 which equals more sales, which equals more money for blizzard), BUT if you aren't helping Blizzard they aren't afraid to go after you, just look at the case of bnetd. If you haven't heard of this you should Wikipedia it or read the opinion here http://www.ca8.uscourts.gov/opndir/05/09/043654P.pdf
Basically, I am surprised that Blizzard hasn't gone after iccup, but by the time iccup came around it was late in the game and they probably figured that iccup actually increased interest in the game. I seriously doubt iccup will be allowed to venture into SC2 territory the way it functions currently in SC. As for TL, there might be a cause of action under trademark law for trademark infringement under a theory of dilution or likelihood of confusion. Likewise, under copyright law, a court would likely find infringement, just look at the legality of fan fiction and the cases involving Harry Potter. Essentially all fan fiction fails as a derivative work and also likely fails under a fair use defense. There are four non-elusive factors that courts typically anlayze under fair use (1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes; (2) the nature of the copyrighted work; factual works (less protection) and fiction more protection (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole, and (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
If TL were able to pull too many visitors or siphon revenue of off Blizzard, I believe Blizzard has a decent copyright infringement case and TL would fail in its fair use defense. Basically, TL runs adds which generate revenue (see that thing above which says: you can get your ad here right now: $4.10), which essentially makes TL a commercial use in the eyes of the court, (note KESPA is even worse here). Thus, factor 1 weighs against fair use. The second factor, the nature of the copyrighted work also weighs against fair use, because Starcraft is a fictional creation not a factual work (i.e. facts biographies etc., See Harper & Rowe 471 U.S. 539 (1985). The third factor also weighs against fair use, because TL copies significant elements of the copyrighted work. The fourth factor (and most significant factor courts have said) is less clear. Essentially TL has to take away business from Blizzard. Blizzard could argue that they are losing market share because they should have sole control over forums etc. and people are directed to TL thus they lose potential customers. In KESPA’s case this factor weighs very heavily against fair use, because Blizzard has lost the ability to create a league (a whole industry).
I know most of you thought that was too long, but I am a law student and although I primarily wrestle with patents, I end up dabbling in copyright and trademark classes. As many of you noted copyright laws vary by nation, but under WIPO and TRIPS, the treaties requires all members of the WTO to comply to certain basic standards in IP and sets out ways to litigate international IP disputes. If Blizzard wants to take this to litigation, I do not believe they would necessarily be subject to South Korean law, but someone should clarify this!
On May 04 2010 20:28 emucxg wrote: basically why people hate KeSPA:
Free Agency <-- I'm totally agree with this, KeSPA is fucking asshole with FA players...
MSL Powerr outage <-- This have nothing to do with KeSPA, MBC Channel got fucked up
PP incident <-- the referee from KeSPA did nothing wrong. yes, the guy who made the rule is an idiot, but KeSPA fixed ppp rules immediately after the accident
GomTV forced out <-- GomTV was poorly organized, yes, it has english commentaries but like I said before, their korean commentary sucks...Players already got overworked, so its not a big deal either for them or korean fans, if GomTV doesnt even exist. Ofcs its very sad for foreign fans, but why would KeSPA care about foreign fans?
Exactly! My main gripe with KeSPA is the lack of a programing union.
On May 04 2010 11:14 Hot_Bid wrote: While your first response may be "yes, ofc Blizzard has CP rights, it made the game!!", looking at it from a copyright perspective (I'm not a copyright lawyer so don't quote me), Blizzard may not have rights to secondary user generated content, even if they specify this in their licensing agreements.
For example, does the person who invented baseball have rights to ticket proceeds of every single baseball game ever played? A few years ago there was a movie about people doing NY Times crossword puzzles, does the NYT have rights to proceeds from that movie because it depicted people playing their game?
Its not a black and white issue at all and will probably be litigated at some point, and if I had to go with my gut, I'd say its pretty close to swinging either way, at least with a US court.
i am almost certain blizzard has the actual intellectual property rights to what kespa does, and will win if there is a litigation.
Based on what? I'm almost certain blizzard doesn't have the intellectual property rights to secondary products and will lose if there is litigation.
it's a very common right called a derivative work
Does that mean blizzard owns TL and TSL too?
Pretty sure the breaking point is whether you're making a business out of Blizzard's game. TSL clearly isn't a business, while Kespa's leagues clearly are.
wow. that's quite impressive how kespa painted themselves into the jesus on the cross corner Anyways, I hope it works out in esports best interests, despite my feeling that it won't.
On May 04 2010 20:38 Navane wrote: As I see it: the alternative to Blizzard is Westwood, the alternative to Kespa is Gom. I know which one I'd happily toss out, and which one I'd never trade.
No, GOM is only the alternative to OGN/MBC. You're focusing too much on the broadcasters, when they're the easiest people to bring onboard since they stand to make money from broadcasting thanks to advertisement revenue. Sponsors on the other hand simply bankroll teams with "free" money in return for exposure. It's a much less obvious proposition.
In KeSPA's case, the sponsors structured themselves as a professional sports association and took a very active role by organizing the team houses, the Courage tournaments, etc. Unsurprisingly, they finally decided to get a return on their investment by doing what all sports associations do, selling broadcasting rights (otherwise only OGN and MBC actually make any money from esports). That's the only way KeSPA can make a profit since, contrary to other sports associations, they don't charge entry fees and they don't sell merchandising on a consistent basis.
Unfortunately, the process caused a scandal back in 2007 as they had to create the broadcasting rights out of thin air to actually sell them, and that really kicked off the anti-KeSPA bandwagon, even though they were perfectly justified in their decision and the whole thing was more of an internal profit-sharing agreement since OGN and MBC are part of the organization. Oddly enough, some people who hate KeSPA for that scandal support Blizzard's royalty demands!
Yet Blizzard isn't going to sponsor teams, much less organize team houses and such. They need to attract sponsors -- demanding total control in addition to royalties doesn't look like a good way to do that. If KeSPA is balking even though they have an established scene, do you think companies in other countries -- where esports are nonexistent -- will be interested?
On May 04 2010 21:15 snowdrift86 wrote: Unfortunately, the process caused a scandal back in 2007 as they had to create the broadcasting rights out of thin air to actually sell them, and that really kicked off the anti-KeSPA bandwagon, even though they were perfectly justified in their decision and the whole thing was more of an internal profit-sharing agreement since OGN and MBC are part of the organization. Oddly enough, some people who hate KeSPA for that scandal support Blizzard's royalty demands!
I had forgotten about that. This is indeed an important part of the history behind the situation.
On May 04 2010 21:15 snowdrift86 wrote:Yet Blizzard isn't going to sponsor teams, much less organize team houses and such. They need to attract sponsors -- demanding total control in addition to royalties doesn't look like a good way to do that. If KeSPA is balking even though they have an established scene, do you think companies in other countries -- where esports are nonexistent -- will be interested?
Yeah. If SC2 succeeds outside South Korea as an esport, it won't be because of Blizzard's "support", but it will be in SPITE of Blizzard's demands. But I have a feeling Blizzard will be less demanding elsewhere because there's less money in those places, for now.
On May 04 2010 20:38 Navane wrote: As I see it: the alternative to Blizzard is Westwood, the alternative to Kespa is Gom. I know which one I'd happily toss out, and which one I'd never trade.
And what does Kespa even do? OGN/MBC cast and organize the tournaments. The players all got their sponsor based teams.
Imagine TSL: TL organizes the tourney, makes sure there are casters. The players all practiced in their teams (EG, TOT, etc). Then there would be this FESPA organisation who would somehow make up rules here and there and rake in a fair % of the money. What?
I don't think you even understand the situation at all.
On May 04 2010 20:38 Navane wrote: As I see it: the alternative to Blizzard is Westwood, the alternative to Kespa is Gom. I know which one I'd happily toss out, and which one I'd never trade.
And what does Kespa even do? OGN/MBC cast and organize the tournaments. The players all got their sponsor based teams.
Imagine TSL: TL organizes the tourney, makes sure there are casters. The players all practiced in their teams (EG, TOT, etc). Then there would be this FESPA organisation who would somehow make up rules here and there and rake in a fair % of the money. What?
I don't think you even understand the situation at all.
I don't think you understand the situation too. (See, how easy it is to say that without proper elaboration)
On May 04 2010 20:09 Necrosjef wrote: My main gripe against KeSPA is that they don't make any effort to cater for fans outside of South Korea, which are probably the majority of fans.
I have a feeling that sc2 as spectator esport will fail.. Things will stay as they are now with many small internet tournaments.. And some bigger 1 day events like WCG and whatever else and thats it.. No regular organized televised leagues with teams which mimic a basketball/football season which is what kespa brings.. Kespa isnt just some judge or some bad guy.. it is all the things that make esport work.. Kespa is teams, leagues, TV stations, sponsors and without all that all you have left are internet tourneys made by some guys from youtube..
On May 04 2010 11:41 DatTheMighty wrote: I see everyone is just assuming sc2 is going to hit it big as an esports. I think some of you guys are having quite a thin notion of what Esports is. I am sure Sc2 will do as well as Wc3 or maybe better but will it be an Esports? Esports to me is year round multiple leagues with thousands of live fans at finals, two sports Channel broadcasting 24/7 (ogn, mbcgame), while some of you think if it has few tournaments here and there it should be called esports.
Agreed, the perfection that is BW was an accident.
I'm sceptical as to SC2 sucess as a perfectly balanced game like BW
Don't even start this discussion. BW's success was an accident or not didn't matter, Blizzard created it.
Even when an idiot invented something great he still deserves everything from his invention.
Except that not only is the success of BW not an accident, it's also not solely Blizzard's prize to hold. It was the fact that Korea loved the game so much, got sponsors interested, refined the balance of the game to what it is today using maps, etc etc... years of work to build up to what we have today. Besides, Blizzard is getting plenty out of the deal, and that's even beyond the ridiculous amount of free advertising they get from it. The idea behind eSports is supposed to be that games that get popular due to eSports end up selling more copies as a result, and improve the reputation of game designers' like Blizzard (allowing them to further profit off future sales).
It's like half the people posting don't have any clue about the history behind this discussion...
1- I'm not sure why you're saying all this. No one denies the amazing achievement of SC pro scene in Korea and how it totally changed the game. Even Blizzard.
2- Did Blizzard ask KeSPA to do advertising for them? Don't you think KeSPA's claim that "all our best tournaments are based on your games so that free promotion for you, that's how we pay you royalties" is very weak or even unacceptable from a business point of view? Blizzard wasn't one of those no name domestic gamemakers that paid KeSPA just so that they include their games into esport competitions.
Also I really do think most people who aren't on KeSPA side understand very well the history behind all this (a hint: check when they join TLnet). I also think most of us who came to TLnet do agree on one thing - the love for the beautiful gem which is the Korean SC proscene, its amazing tournaments and amazing players. The thing is many people seem to see KeSPA as the utmost representative of all that, while in fact it wasn't really the case.
Personally I want KeSPA to lose in this battle vs Blizzard simply because I think the Korean proscene deserves a better body and a better approach than KeSPA.
. . . the right to audit KeSPA’s finances, as well as ownership of secondary content created through our unique resources in the teams, players, and broadcasting expertise
LoL if this is so true, then KeSPA has every right to refuse . . .
On May 04 2010 22:13 iounas wrote: I have a feeling that sc2 as spectator esport will fail.. Things will stay as they are now with many small internet tournaments.. And some bigger 1 day events like WCG and whatever else and thats it.. No regular organized televised leagues with teams which mimic a basketball/football season which is what kespa brings.. Kespa isnt just some judge or some bad guy.. it is all the things that make esport work.. Kespa is teams, leagues, TV stations, sponsors and without all that all you have left are internet tourneys made by some guys from youtube..
On May 04 2010 11:41 DatTheMighty wrote: I see everyone is just assuming sc2 is going to hit it big as an esports. I think some of you guys are having quite a thin notion of what Esports is. I am sure Sc2 will do as well as Wc3 or maybe better but will it be an Esports? Esports to me is year round multiple leagues with thousands of live fans at finals, two sports Channel broadcasting 24/7 (ogn, mbcgame), while some of you think if it has few tournaments here and there it should be called esports.
Agreed, the perfection that is BW was an accident.
I'm sceptical as to SC2 sucess as a perfectly balanced game like BW
Don't even start this discussion. BW's success was an accident or not didn't matter, Blizzard created it.
Even when an idiot invented something great he still deserves everything from his invention.
Except that not only is the success of BW not an accident, it's also not solely Blizzard's prize to hold. It was the fact that Korea loved the game so much, got sponsors interested, refined the balance of the game to what it is today using maps, etc etc... years of work to build up to what we have today. Besides, Blizzard is getting plenty out of the deal, and that's even beyond the ridiculous amount of free advertising they get from it. The idea behind eSports is supposed to be that games that get popular due to eSports end up selling more copies as a result, and improve the reputation of game designers' like Blizzard (allowing them to further profit off future sales).
It's like half the people posting don't have any clue about the history behind this discussion...
Personally I want KeSPA to lose in this battle vs Blizzard simply because I think the Korean proscene deserves a better body and a better approach than KeSPA.
I dont know why so many hate kespa.. They are the ones that bring all the good stuff.. Kespa is OGN and MBC and teams. Without kespa korean scene would be the same as foreign. What if the alternative to kespa? Kespa is a body of ministry of culture.
Without kespa you have something like playxp tournament which I know nothing about as only replays are available.. Do you want pro tv broadcasts or having some tourneys that are like lan parties without tv coverage..
Not only is MLG hugely successful, they have switched their Halo game from halo 2 to halo 3, and will probably move again to the new Halo game after its been out for a while.
Does microsoft charge them royalties to play/broadcast their game, or just thank them for the free advertising? Is it bad that blizzard is being greedier than M$?
Sc2 is gonna get reversed engineered for lan support eventually anyway. This just gives kespa a reason to support another SuddenAttack.
On May 04 2010 22:13 iounas wrote: I have a feeling that sc2 as spectator esport will fail.. Things will stay as they are now with many small internet tournaments.. And some bigger 1 day events like WCG and whatever else and thats it.. No regular organized televised leagues with teams which mimic a basketball/football season which is what kespa brings.. Kespa isnt just some judge or some bad guy.. it is all the things that make esport work.. Kespa is teams, leagues, TV stations, sponsors and without all that all you have left are internet tourneys made by some guys from youtube..
you dont know much about european scene, right?
Not much, because I dont care about it.. Korea/kespa has such a nice model with players playing in studios in front of audience with really nice tv production.. Its kinda like football.. You know that every saturday and sunday games are played.. You can just tune in and watch premier league / serie a / primera on channels that cover those leagues to watch your favorite team and players as the season progresses.. And then you also have national cups and uefa / champions league..
I dont know much about european sc scene but its probably played over internet casted over livestream with no real tournament structure or seasonal progression..
And yeah I dont follow football league of my country but I follow those big 3 european leagues in the same way I follow Korean leagues but dont follow others.
1) Blizzard 100% denies Kespa access to SC2 (easily done because of their no LAN EULA) 2) Kespa keeps BW rights because of secondary content law. In turn, they compete with blizzard using BW and other potential games they could pick up. That would severely hinder SC2 growth in Korea.
Don't get me wrong, i hate kespa. Muscling GOMTV out of the scene is the most despicable form of beating competition and a perfect example of abusing their e-sports monopoly. Their interests are NOT the players or fans, so don't buy their puppy face press appearance.
But we must think objectively, not emotionally. In the end, what scenario gives us what we want the most?
On May 04 2010 22:13 mrdx wrote:2- Did Blizzard ask KeSPA to do advertising for them? Don't you think KeSPA's claim that "all our best tournaments are based on your games so that free promotion for you, that's how we pay you royalties" is very weak or even unacceptable from a business point of view?
And why do you think that Blizzard had give up on any potential broadcast rights for SC:BW in Korea for symbolic amount? To make that few $ or to get free advertisement that had sold them what 8-9mln copies of SC:BW more? They had sold 10mln how much would they sell without esport in Korea? How is that a bad business for them?
On May 04 2010 22:13 mrdx wrote:Blizzard wasn't one of those no name domestic gamemakers that paid KeSPA just so that they include their games into esport competitions.
No they got it pretty much for free, and since when big companies don't advertise?
Also how can you believe that Blizzard is doing it to not make people work for 70h/week, or to get better pay for players? What conditions that Blizzard had demanded are even relevant to it? If they would care about it then they would have that in the contract given to KeSPA. Knowing finances =/= knowing how much somebody works Knowing finances =/= ability to give somebody better pay They want to know the fiances to know how much royalties they can get.
If they would want better conditions for players then they could for example request the change of free agency conditions.
Lets be realistic bigger pay for players = less royalties that Blizzard can take from esports. If you add up the pay of all players then you got pretty decent sum of money that Blizzard could take part of while putting no extra work. They were selling a damn 25$ virtual horse model for people that already pay 10-15$/month to Blizzard so maybe check some facts before you will say that Blizzard don't care about money becouse they make so much from wow subscriptions already, they even want to milk those subscribers.
from my point of view, there seem to be two completely different approaches to the Starcraft II broadcasting rights.
Blizzard wants to sell the broadcasting rights for Starcraft II to a / the Korean TV station for a period of one year and demands additional revenue shares from marketing activities etc. This is, obviously, in their interest as they can, that way, adjust the price for the broadcasting rights in accordance to Starcraft II's popularity (in Korea probably err... HUGE!).
KeSPA wants to sign a TV broadcasting rights deal for 3+ several years and aims for a long-term contract as this provides them with better opportunities regarding sponsoring and cross-marketing rights.
In between the lines of both statements, I assume the main problem source for the negotiations seem to be the two different law systems in the US and Korea, where the two parties are based. It appears Blizzard made an offer based on USA law that is hard to "translate" / convert into Korean jurisdictionary restrictions and guidelines and the general Korean law system.
On May 04 2010 22:13 iounas wrote: I have a feeling that sc2 as spectator esport will fail.. Things will stay as they are now with many small internet tournaments.. And some bigger 1 day events like WCG and whatever else and thats it.. No regular organized televised leagues with teams which mimic a basketball/football season which is what kespa brings.. Kespa isnt just some judge or some bad guy.. it is all the things that make esport work.. Kespa is teams, leagues, TV stations, sponsors and without all that all you have left are internet tourneys made by some guys from youtube..
you dont know much about european scene, right?
Not much, because I dont care about it.. Korea/kespa has such a nice model with players playing in studios in front of audience with really nice tv production.. Its kinda like football.. You know that every saturday and sunday games are played.. You can just tune in and watch premier league / serie a / primera on channels that cover those leagues to watch your favorite team and players as the season progresses.. And then you also have national cups and uefa / champions league..
I dont know much about european sc scene but its probably played over internet casted over livestream with no real tournament structure or seasonal progression..
And yeah I dont follow football league of my country but I follow those big 3 european leagues in the same way I follow Korean leagues but dont follow others.
i was talking about esport in general in europe, not only sc.
wc3 was a pretty big deal. all big teams the koreans played in were from europe and there were/are leagues and tournaments that happened/happen regularly, like intel extreme masters (a price money of llike 500 000$ total, wc3 was part of it before wow but sc2 will become part of it for sure) or ESWC.
but the most important part is the ESL i think. its building leagues all over europe. the EPS is the highest league in every country and right now i think germany, france, benelux, scandinavia, the alps (austria and switzerland), italy, spain, greece and the balkans do have an EPS with offline finals twice a year. germany has the biggest with over 100 000€ price money (okay, there are like 5 different games) and offline matches for every playday, using locations for over 1 000 spectators.
im sure they will get better sponsors so that the price money will rise and sc2 will become the number 1 in europe (cs is number 1 now).
The efficiency and the general tone of this message (or at least of the translation, lol, good work and thank you) really threw me. This definitely shook my original bias in favor of Blizzard, which, I have to admit looking back now, feels a little unfounded. I can't help but think badly of Kespa for some of their decisions, but in this, I feel like they took a big step forward in being grown up about it. Then again, it doesn't take a lot to hire one guy who knows how to write when you have a dozen or so giant companies bankrolling you. I don't know what to think anymore. Good thing my opinion doesn't affect anything, lol.
That EPS is bullshit, I've never heard of anything with that name and never seen any coverage of it in Sweden, at least not on any Swedish e-sports news site.
ESL is good for Germans, and that's about it. Their coverage is almost always in German except for a final in CS 1.6 or Quake Live.
1. People saying esports wouldn't exist without kespa, prove it. It's in fact easy to prove the opposite in how many other esports organizations and tournaments exist.
2. People saying Blizzard is being greedy, it's their product and all revenues generated from it are rightfully theirs. As someone stated before, can you use mickey mouse, or a windows logo in any advertisement without disney or microsofts clear permissions? No, you cannot they will sue you. Does kespa get permissions when they use and televise Blizzard's intellectual properties? No, they don't. They are stealing, and have been for a long time and Blizzard has let it go where BW is concerned. But if a software company doesn't defend it's copyrights they will go out of business. Look at how the music recording industry has suffered because of piracy. Blizzard could rightfully sue kespa for every advertising dollar they've ever made using Blizzard's intellectual property but they haven't because there not greedy. They could go after iccup, but they don't. They give out there beta to thousands completely free because there not greedy. They are going to allow people who design ums and maps to receive a small bit of the revenue there content creates on bnet 2.0 because they are not greedy. How many companies have release sequels that are trash and were rushed out because they are greedy? Not Blizzard.
3. People making all this fuss about "it's on tv". How many of you live in Korea and even get to see this on TV? How many of you just watch it in VOD form like every other esports and tournament organization around the world?
4. MLG has full time pro teams, gets tv coverage on espn and formerly usa network. Has millions of viewers to it's events, over 10000 people show up to it's events in person (and pay to get in!) and they are already supporting the beta on gamebattles. Artosis had great things to say about them in his last weekly. I believe that MLG will support SC2 long term because it will be profitable to as long as there are enough fans, and the release of expansions will give SC2 longevity. MLG has existed for almost a decade with 0 scandals! When they wanted they're top halo team to not compete in other halo tournaments they gave them a 1 million dollar contract to facilitate it. Kespa on the other hand has used the looming threat of pulling a gamers license to do this. MLG > KESPA
5. Do you not see how evil kespa really is? The implications in the gambling scandal are that their officials have been involved, kespa has been aware of this for YEARS and actually sat down with the ILLEGAL gambling companies in secret meetings to see if they could co-exist. Kespa has been all about secrecy on a lot of controversy because they have a lot to hide. They use pro licenses to maintain a monopoly over esports in korea, which in my opinion would be huge there, with or without them because of the enormous fan base. They have shown their own incompetence several times in the past. They are for profit and yet a governmental organization of south korea. If your saying that nothing else similar exists in south korea it's probably because kespa won't allow it to and actively seeks out and destroys competition in their business by exerting the power of their government sanctioned monopoly. Kespa attempted to sell the broadcasting rights for starcraft in 2007, but it's not their intellectual property, it's blizzard's. I'd be pissed too! Kespa is a parasitic organization, they use the players, and they use intellectual property that doesn't belong to them for profit meanwhile claiming all the credit for the existence of esports.
6. We can argue all day about the points of this but at the end of the day kespa looses. They were fools for challenging Blizzard in the first place. Blizzard is going to control the fate of SC2 not kespa. Blizzard will profit, rightfully so, from the use of sc2 for advertising and kespa will go broke. The release of Sc2 will deplete BW's fan base more and more as time goes on.
None of us really know what the future of Starcraft or esports is, but kespa has sealed their own fate. The only way for our questions and concerns to be addressed is time. We'll all just have to wait and see. One thing to be sure, the amount of fans is the #1 determining factor in the future of esports and starcraft, not kespa and not blizzard.
What are the odds that this statement isn't at least some part bullshit to make themselves seem like the victims? I mean, its blatantly obvious it's a response to Blizzards statement.
Personally I don't want KeSPA to run Starcraft 2 in Korea. They do alright with BW but theres too much controversy. I'd rather not see them toy around with Starcraft 2 risking it's death over trivial matters. If they want to keep hosting BW thats quite alright with me, but I don't see why it has to be them for Starcraft 2. Sponsors will pay to advertise their companies, and TV stations will air games that will give them ratings. If theres money to be made they wont say no. We may not have Flash and Jaedong for Starcraft 2 in Korea but theres no reason that proleague can't happen without KeSPA.
Personal feelings set aside, whatever happens happens, and as long as I get to watch the TSL3 and enjoy English commentaries of some sick Starcraft 2 games, I could really care less who organized the tournaments.
On May 04 2010 22:13 iounas wrote: I have a feeling that sc2 as spectator esport will fail.. Things will stay as they are now with many small internet tournaments.. And some bigger 1 day events like WCG and whatever else and thats it.. No regular organized televised leagues with teams which mimic a basketball/football season which is what kespa brings.. Kespa isnt just some judge or some bad guy.. it is all the things that make esport work.. Kespa is teams, leagues, TV stations, sponsors and without all that all you have left are internet tourneys made by some guys from youtube..
you dont know much about european scene, right?
Not much, because I dont care about it.. Korea/kespa has such a nice model with players playing in studios in front of audience with really nice tv production.. Its kinda like football.. You know that every saturday and sunday games are played.. You can just tune in and watch premier league / serie a / primera on channels that cover those leagues to watch your favorite team and players as the season progresses.. And then you also have national cups and uefa / champions league..
I dont know much about european sc scene but its probably played over internet casted over livestream with no real tournament structure or seasonal progression..
And yeah I dont follow football league of my country but I follow those big 3 european leagues in the same way I follow Korean leagues but dont follow others.
i was talking about esport in general in europe, not only sc.
wc3 was a pretty big deal. all big teams the koreans played in were from europe and there were/are leagues and tournaments that happened/happen regularly, like intel extreme masters (a price money of llike 500 000$ total, wc3 was part of it before wow but sc2 will become part of it for sure) or ESWC.
but the most important part is the ESL i think. its building leagues all over europe. the EPS is the highest league in every country and right now i think germany, france, benelux, scandinavia, the alps (austria and switzerland), italy, spain, greece and the balkans do have an EPS with offline finals twice a year. germany has the biggest with over 100 000€ price money (okay, there are like 5 different games) and offline matches for every playday, using locations for over 1 000 spectators.
im sure they will get better sponsors so that the price money will rise and sc2 will become the number 1 in europe (cs is number 1 now).
Ah, ok.. Im not familiar with wc3, wow or cs but I watched QL championships and intel extreme masters finals on ESL.. I like their 2 english ql commentators, one of them also casts cs and one wow.. In my opinion QL is the only esports worthy fps because of high skills needed to play, but cs also isnt that bad because of the teamwork..
On May 04 2010 23:48 Reborn8u wrote: 1. People saying esports wouldn't exist without kespa, prove it. It's in fact easy to prove the opposite in how many other esports organizations and tournaments exist.
2. People saying Blizzard is being greedy, it's their product and all revenues generated from it are rightfully theirs. As someone stated before, can you use mickey mouse, or a windows logo in any advertisement without disney or microsofts clear permissions? No, you cannot they will sue you. Does kespa get permissions when they use and televise Blizzard's intellectual properties? No, they don't. They are stealing, and have been for a long time and Blizzard has let it go where BW is concerned. But if software company doesn't defend it's copyrights they will go out of business.
3. People making all this fuss about "it's on tv". How many of you live in Korea and even get to see this on TV? How many of you just watch it in VOD form like every other esports and tournament organization around the world?
4. MLG has full time pro teams, gets tv coverage on espn and formerly usa network. Has millions of viewers to it's events, over 10000 people show up to it's events in person (and pay to get in!) and they are already supporting the beta on gamebattles. Artosis had great things to say about them in his last weekly. MLG > KESPA
5. Do you not see how evil kespa really is? The implications in the gambling scandal are that their officials have been involved, kespa has been aware of this for YEARS and actually sat down with the ILLEGAL gambling companies in secret meetings to see if they could co-exist. Kespa has been all about secrecy on a lot of controversy because they have a lot to hide. They use pro licenses to maintain a monopoly over esports in korea, which in my opinion would be huge there, with or without them because of the enormous fan base. They have shown their own incompetence several times in the past. They are for profit and yet a governmental organization of south korea. If your saying that nothing else similar exists in south korea it's probably because kespa won't allow it to and actively seeks out and destroys competition in their business by exerting the power of their government sanctioned monopoly. Kespa attempted to sell the broadcasting rights for starcraft in 2007, but it's not their intellectual property, it's blizzard's. I'd be pissed too! Kespa is a parasitic organization, they use the players, and they use intellectual property that doesn't belong to them for profit meanwhile claiming all the credit for the existence of esports.
6. We can argue all day about the points of this but at the end of the day kespa looses. They were fools for challenging Blizzard in the first place. Blizzard is going to control the fate of SC2 not kespa. Blizzard will profit, rightfully so, from the use of sc2 for advertising and kespa will go broke. The release of Sc2 will deplete BW's fan base more and more as time goes on.
None of us really know what the future of Starcraft or esports is, but kespa has sealed their own fate. The only way for our questions and concerns to be addressed is time. We'll all just have to wait and see. One thing to be sure, the amount of fans is the #1 determining factor in the future of esports and starcraft, not kespa and not blizzard.
Poor Jaedong. He and all progamers will be out of jobs. But what can we do? change and adapt.
On May 04 2010 23:37 MaYuu wrote: That EPS is bullshit, I've never heard of anything with that name and never seen any coverage of it in Sweden, at least not on any Swedish e-sports news site.
ESL is good for Germans, and that's about it. Their coverage is almost always in German except for a final in CS 1.6 or Quake Live.
I also dont know what is EPS but intel extreme masters was an event like WCG.. Yeah ESL had QL european qualifiers played in their studio in one day but its not really comparable to Koreans and how they do stuff.
On May 05 2010 00:02 Mobius wrote: I hate both KeSPA and blizzard...hard to chose a side here lol
I love only blizzard's game but i hate em both. But if i have to choose, i choose KeSPA for e-sports sake. Blizzard maybe made the game, which opened the way to large E-Sport scene, but KeSPA did all the rest IMO.
so what? it was clear from first day, that both companies didnt want to have the nash-equality, both wanted to maximize their profit there is no sence in a discussion, who is right or wrong here, both companies are right in the way they act, since they sinply act on their own interest
its pretty interesting to see how this debate between this two companies will end :-
According to this statement by KeSPA, Blizzard is basically gunning for being the Apple of eSports. It's definitely understandable that they do not accept a year-by-year licence for operations, as Blizzard could basically dismantle them by snapping their fingers with that kind of power.
The sporadic communication during the negotiation with KeSPA sounds very unprofessional and disrespectfull, and makes you wonder if Blizzard is underestimating how massive an undertaking it is to tackle the eSports scene, and if they're serious enough.
Basically, Blizzard's goal is to usurp power from KeSPA. The question is, is this good or bad for the community?
Blizzards track record is not very good. The poor management and structure of Blizzard leagues has forced the community to come up with their own constructs (wgtour, iccup etc.) where the community could police itself rather than leaving it to the hands-off, non-commiting beaurocracy of Blizzard. On the other hand, a properly managed stage from the dedicated people at Blizzard would not be susceptible to the corruption we are currently seeing on the Asian eSports scene.
On May 04 2010 23:37 MaYuu wrote: That EPS is bullshit, I've never heard of anything with that name and never seen any coverage of it in Sweden, at least not on any Swedish e-sports news site.
ESL is good for Germans, and that's about it. Their coverage is almost always in German except for a final in CS 1.6 or Quake Live.
i agree with you that EPS nordic was really shitty, no one cared about it
but still ESL is the biggest esports organization in europe and they are the only ones who have leagues with regular play days and price money. qualifiying for IEM through EPS is also a nice thing.
i didnt say they were perfect now, i just say its the best we have right now in europe and if their concept is improved i think this could be much better than esport in korea, as it would be international because of IEM plus having a lot of money involved already.
On May 04 2010 23:37 MaYuu wrote: That EPS is bullshit, I've never heard of anything with that name and never seen any coverage of it in Sweden, at least not on any Swedish e-sports news site.
ESL is good for Germans, and that's about it. Their coverage is almost always in German except for a final in CS 1.6 or Quake Live.
I also dont know what is EPS but intel extreme masters was an event like WCG.. Yeah ESL had QL european qualifiers played in their studio in one day but its not really comparable to Koreans and how they do stuff.
QL isnt a great deal in europe, i even forgot it was on IEM tt
my point was german EPS is most comparable to the koreans, although it still has to improve a lot. additionally ESL is expanding its leagues into other countries thus building up an international system that works like football with every country having a league to qualify for the Champions League (IEM for esports).
In Blizzards previous statement, they said they are "looking for other partners" so clearly they do not intend to be completely running esports. I do personally believe they simply want to work with an organization that respects their property rights as the creator and their right to advertising profits derived from it. Which kespa obviously doesn't even want to share just how much money they profit off of it. If Blizzard can't even audit Kespa as a partner how can it be decided what a fair split of the profits are?
it should be 3 year licence and renegotiate afterwards. blizzard gets paid royalties.
and all this stuff about how they have a right to protect the image of their product... when has sponsors of sc1 been horrible for their image? i think of ever, i think of shinhan, i think of gom.. yeah.. this is just to push kespa out the door.
the problem is with the 18+ rating on it, you have to wait for 10pm or whatever after to broadcast any of the shows, not to mention take out a large chunk of the progaming population due to age restriction. there is no way sc2 in korea would get good sponsorship, i mean the current OSLs and stuff are at prime time TV right? best time for TV sponsorship/commercials.
Blizzard should just focus on helping with the development of Esport in the US and Europe, I don't know why they(in conjunction with Activision) are not doing so in a more apparent manner. God knows when this crap with Kespa will be sorted out. Both sides are equally greedy, and the fans are losing out because of their differences.
On May 04 2010 23:48 Reborn8u wrote: 1. People saying esports wouldn't exist without kespa, prove it. It's in fact easy to prove the opposite in how many other esports organizations and tournaments exist.
2. People saying Blizzard is being greedy, it's their product and all revenues generated from it are rightfully theirs. As someone stated before, can you use mickey mouse, or a windows logo in any advertisement without disney or microsofts clear permissions? No, you cannot they will sue you. Does kespa get permissions when they use and televise Blizzard's intellectual properties? No, they don't. They are stealing, and have been for a long time and Blizzard has let it go where BW is concerned. But if software company doesn't defend it's copyrights they will go out of business.
3. People making all this fuss about "it's on tv". How many of you live in Korea and even get to see this on TV? How many of you just watch it in VOD form like every other esports and tournament organization around the world?
4. MLG has full time pro teams, gets tv coverage on espn and formerly usa network. Has millions of viewers to it's events, over 10000 people show up to it's events in person (and pay to get in!) and they are already supporting the beta on gamebattles. Artosis had great things to say about them in his last weekly. I believe that MLG will support SC2 long term because it will be profitable to as long as there are enough fans, and the release of expansions will give SC2 longevity. MLG has existed for almost a decade with 0 scandals! When they wanted they're top halo team to not compete in other halo tournaments they gave them a 1 million dollar contract to facilitate it. Kespa on the other hand has used the looming threat of pulling a gamers license to do this. MLG > KESPA
5. Do you not see how evil kespa really is? The implications in the gambling scandal are that their officials have been involved, kespa has been aware of this for YEARS and actually sat down with the ILLEGAL gambling companies in secret meetings to see if they could co-exist. Kespa has been all about secrecy on a lot of controversy because they have a lot to hide. They use pro licenses to maintain a monopoly over esports in korea, which in my opinion would be huge there, with or without them because of the enormous fan base. They have shown their own incompetence several times in the past. They are for profit and yet a governmental organization of south korea. If your saying that nothing else similar exists in south korea it's probably because kespa won't allow it to and actively seeks out and destroys competition in their business by exerting the power of their government sanctioned monopoly. Kespa attempted to sell the broadcasting rights for starcraft in 2007, but it's not their intellectual property, it's blizzard's. I'd be pissed too! Kespa is a parasitic organization, they use the players, and they use intellectual property that doesn't belong to them for profit meanwhile claiming all the credit for the existence of esports.
6. We can argue all day about the points of this but at the end of the day kespa looses. They were fools for challenging Blizzard in the first place. Blizzard is going to control the fate of SC2 not kespa. Blizzard will profit, rightfully so, from the use of sc2 for advertising and kespa will go broke. The release of Sc2 will deplete BW's fan base more and more as time goes on.
None of us really know what the future of Starcraft or esports is, but kespa has sealed their own fate. The only way for our questions and concerns to be addressed is time. We'll all just have to wait and see. One thing to be sure, the amount of fans is the #1 determining factor in the future of esports and starcraft, not kespa and not blizzard.
1. without Kespa members, who would finance the pro gaming teams currently? I think 11 of the teams have membership on the board. what would happen if all these huge sponsors pulled out? i mean they are the biggest titans in korean's economy mostly. who will eat the cost of sponsoring all those pro gaming teams? defintely not blizzard.
2. Korea bought licencsing rights for SC:BW. are you kidding me? blizzard was stupid enough to sell it at a cheap price since they didn't see any future in e-sports and paid the price. your bias towards blizzard is amazing.
3. how many of us actually stay up and use the streams provided to us by Daum/etc?
4. how long do you really think an RTS game will last in the US market for marketability? history has shown us that mostly FPS, sports games like madden, and WOW are the cash cows of the US. C&C 3 died out quick. is War3 even alive? and Dota... that aint even a RTS, its more FPS than RTS.
5. i thought the ppl under investigation for the gambling scene was players throwing games, and their relationship with bookies. we know kespa is a money hungry bastard. but at least they continue to finance korean progaming. you know for damn sure blizzard is just as greedy and i can see them pulling out if they don't see immediate returns on investments. they are not in this for the long haul, they want someone else to do all the work and reap all the profits from it. why else would they eliminate LAN? they must go through blizzards bnet to play ne games. I cant wait to see China hack SC2, you know its coming. they will defintely add a lan feature to the game and pirate the shit out of it. they never much cared for copy right laws, but this will be the first time i full support them in this cheating endevor.
6. in the end, e-sports loses. the fans loses. the players loses. Kespa is mostly multi million/billion dollar industries who don't necessarily need e-sports for their revenue. its just a nice piece of change, but the fact of the matter is, the only ones who suffer are the fans, the players and the sport itself. blizzard and kespa dont need e-sports to succeed. kespa as an organization does, but not as sole members.
i just dont see e-sports suceeding for an RTS outside of Asia and maybe europe. it will never succeed in the USA, where it can be shown on prime time television with multiple team sponsorships and a regular league instead of the bullshit once a year WCG or blizzcon. whatever though, i hope they settle their differences. korean scene is just so much more epic than the foreigner counterparts.
On May 04 2010 23:48 Reborn8u wrote: 4. MLG has full time pro teams, gets tv coverage on espn and formerly usa network. Has millions of viewers to it's events, over 10000 people show up to it's events in person (and pay to get in!) and they are already supporting the beta on gamebattles. Artosis had great things to say about them in his last weekly. I believe that MLG will support SC2 long term because it will be profitable to as long as there are enough fans, and the release of expansions will give SC2 longevity. MLG has existed for almost a decade with 0 scandals! When they wanted they're top halo team to not compete in other halo tournaments they gave them a 1 million dollar contract to facilitate it. Kespa on the other hand has used the looming threat of pulling a gamers license to do this. MLG > KESPA
MLG is console shit I belive? That's not e-sports that's loller-sports ;<
seems like everyone thinks that without korea, E-Sports is dead, well is it? China is setting up E-Sport as a legitimate sports event and they're following the korean model of e-sports trends, team houses, broadcasted matches, etc etc... with SC2 coming out, if the community takes the initiative to grab the momentum at the release of SC2, its definately possible to popularise e-sport in the foreigner scene, blizzard themselves have expressed the enthusiasm of such demeanor.
its not going to be easy to set up the culture of e-sport like they did in korea, but to say that if korea went down, and everything will go to shits is just simply not true, if kespa wants to throw the e-sports capital of the world back into the stone age, go ahead and find another game u can capitalise as E-Sports kespa, good luck with that. and i don get y everone seems to think that if blizz back off from korea it would be like the sky is falling down? sure they lose a large portion of market share in the world for their product... but is it the end for blizzard? but if blizzard shuts down kespa from SC2, would it be the end for kespa?
the true victim of this case is not us, but imo the korean kids who wants to play SC2 just to find out its rated Adults Only for some pathetic excuse...
On May 04 2010 23:48 Reborn8u wrote: 1. People saying esports wouldn't exist without kespa, prove it. It's in fact easy to prove the opposite in how many other esports organizations and tournaments exist.
2. People saying Blizzard is being greedy, it's their product and all revenues generated from it are rightfully theirs. As someone stated before, can you use mickey mouse, or a windows logo in any advertisement without disney or microsofts clear permissions? No, you cannot they will sue you. Does kespa get permissions when they use and televise Blizzard's intellectual properties? No, they don't. They are stealing, and have been for a long time and Blizzard has let it go where BW is concerned. But if software company doesn't defend it's copyrights they will go out of business.
3. People making all this fuss about "it's on tv". How many of you live in Korea and even get to see this on TV? How many of you just watch it in VOD form like every other esports and tournament organization around the world?
4. MLG has full time pro teams, gets tv coverage on espn and formerly usa network. Has millions of viewers to it's events, over 10000 people show up to it's events in person (and pay to get in!) and they are already supporting the beta on gamebattles. Artosis had great things to say about them in his last weekly. I believe that MLG will support SC2 long term because it will be profitable to as long as there are enough fans, and the release of expansions will give SC2 longevity. MLG has existed for almost a decade with 0 scandals! When they wanted they're top halo team to not compete in other halo tournaments they gave them a 1 million dollar contract to facilitate it. Kespa on the other hand has used the looming threat of pulling a gamers license to do this. MLG > KESPA
5. Do you not see how evil kespa really is? The implications in the gambling scandal are that their officials have been involved, kespa has been aware of this for YEARS and actually sat down with the ILLEGAL gambling companies in secret meetings to see if they could co-exist. Kespa has been all about secrecy on a lot of controversy because they have a lot to hide. They use pro licenses to maintain a monopoly over esports in korea, which in my opinion would be huge there, with or without them because of the enormous fan base. They have shown their own incompetence several times in the past. They are for profit and yet a governmental organization of south korea. If your saying that nothing else similar exists in south korea it's probably because kespa won't allow it to and actively seeks out and destroys competition in their business by exerting the power of their government sanctioned monopoly. Kespa attempted to sell the broadcasting rights for starcraft in 2007, but it's not their intellectual property, it's blizzard's. I'd be pissed too! Kespa is a parasitic organization, they use the players, and they use intellectual property that doesn't belong to them for profit meanwhile claiming all the credit for the existence of esports.
6. We can argue all day about the points of this but at the end of the day kespa looses. They were fools for challenging Blizzard in the first place. Blizzard is going to control the fate of SC2 not kespa. Blizzard will profit, rightfully so, from the use of sc2 for advertising and kespa will go broke. The release of Sc2 will deplete BW's fan base more and more as time goes on.
None of us really know what the future of Starcraft or esports is, but kespa has sealed their own fate. The only way for our questions and concerns to be addressed is time. We'll all just have to wait and see. One thing to be sure, the amount of fans is the #1 determining factor in the future of esports and starcraft, not kespa and not blizzard.
1. without Kespa members, who would finance the pro gaming teams currently? I think 11 of the teams have membership on the board. what would happen if all these huge sponsors pulled out? i mean they are the biggest titans in korean's economy mostly. who will eat the cost of sponsoring all those pro gaming teams? defintely not blizzard.
2. Korea bought licencsing rights for SC:BW. are you kidding me? blizzard was stupid enough to sell it at a cheap price since they didn't see any future in e-sports and paid the price. your bias towards blizzard is amazing.
3. how many of us actually stay up and use the streams provided to us by Daum/etc?
4. how long do you really think an RTS game will last in the US market for marketability? history has shown us that mostly FPS, sports games like madden, and WOW are the cash cows of the US. C&C 3 died out quick. is War3 even alive? and Dota... that aint even a RTS, its more FPS than RTS.
5. i thought the ppl under investigation for the gambling scene was players throwing games, and their relationship with bookies. we know kespa is a money hungry bastard. but at least they continue to finance korean progaming. you know for damn sure blizzard is just as greedy and i can see them pulling out if they don't see immediate returns on investments. they are not in this for the long haul, they want someone else to do all the work and reap all the profits from it. why else would they eliminate LAN? they must go through blizzards bnet to play ne games. I cant wait to see China hack SC2, you know its coming. they will defintely add a lan feature to the game and pirate the shit out of it. they never much cared for copy right laws, but this will be the first time i full support them in this cheating endevor.
6. in the end, e-sports loses. the fans loses. the players loses. Kespa is mostly multi million/billion dollar industries who don't necessarily need e-sports for their revenue. its just a nice piece of change, but the fact of the matter is, the only ones who suffer are the fans, the players and the sport itself. blizzard and kespa dont need e-sports to succeed. kespa as an organization does, but not as sole members.
i just dont see e-sports suceeding for an RTS outside of Asia and maybe europe. it will never succeed in the USA, where it can be shown on prime time television with multiple team sponsorships and a regular league instead of the bullshit once a year WCG or blizzcon. whatever though, i hope they settle their differences. korean scene is just so much more epic than the foreigner counterparts.
1. Any company that wants there advertisements to reach millions of viewers through the internet will sponsor them. 2. Blizzard is saying that Kespa is not respecting their IP rights. I believe them. 3. How many people watch streams and vods of starcraft and progaming? Millions and Millions, look at mlg or hdstarcrafts channel 4. RTS games will thrive in the US market as long as there are legions of fans and advertising dollars to be made. 5.Officials have been implicated and it has been implicated that kespa has been aware of it for years and it has been said that kespa actually had negotiations with gambling sites. It's difficult to know what exactly has occurred because Kespa is stopping the truth from seeing the light of day. Your totally right about china lol! I believe the lan getting removed is an attempt to stop people from using there game to make profits illegally. So Blizzard can stop people from running tournaments and profiting without them. Blizzard is not nearly as greedy as people seem to think, they do quite a bit of things that are the opposite of greedy. As for other people doing all the work? How long has Blizzard been working on SC2, how much time and resources have they put into it? They deserve the revenues derived from their creation. 6. I for one believe the fans have more to gain by not allowing corrupt organizations like kespa to control esports. I believe kespa doesn't deserve the credit for esports, They just benifit from it. The die hard fans and players are what have made it so big deserve the majority of the credit.
I think the future of esports in the US and Europe will be nothing but growth. I sincerely hope the future proves all of the doubter dead wrong and esports gets better with the death of kespa!
A lot of commercial software require companies to pay an annual licensing fee to use them. Personally, I don't see anything wrong if Blizzard sells their license to KeSPA on an annual basis but if Blizzard wants full authority over Korean e-Sports then it will just be a bucket full of fail.
On May 04 2010 23:48 Reborn8u wrote: 1. People saying esports wouldn't exist without kespa, prove it. It's in fact easy to prove the opposite in how many other esports organizations and tournaments exist.
2. People saying Blizzard is being greedy, it's their product and all revenues generated from it are rightfully theirs. As someone stated before, can you use mickey mouse, or a windows logo in any advertisement without disney or microsofts clear permissions? No, you cannot they will sue you. Does kespa get permissions when they use and televise Blizzard's intellectual properties? No, they don't. They are stealing, and have been for a long time and Blizzard has let it go where BW is concerned. But if software company doesn't defend it's copyrights they will go out of business.
3. People making all this fuss about "it's on tv". How many of you live in Korea and even get to see this on TV? How many of you just watch it in VOD form like every other esports and tournament organization around the world?
4. MLG has full time pro teams, gets tv coverage on espn and formerly usa network. Has millions of viewers to it's events, over 10000 people show up to it's events in person (and pay to get in!) and they are already supporting the beta on gamebattles. Artosis had great things to say about them in his last weekly. I believe that MLG will support SC2 long term because it will be profitable to as long as there are enough fans, and the release of expansions will give SC2 longevity. MLG has existed for almost a decade with 0 scandals! When they wanted they're top halo team to not compete in other halo tournaments they gave them a 1 million dollar contract to facilitate it. Kespa on the other hand has used the looming threat of pulling a gamers license to do this. MLG > KESPA
5. Do you not see how evil kespa really is? The implications in the gambling scandal are that their officials have been involved, kespa has been aware of this for YEARS and actually sat down with the ILLEGAL gambling companies in secret meetings to see if they could co-exist. Kespa has been all about secrecy on a lot of controversy because they have a lot to hide. They use pro licenses to maintain a monopoly over esports in korea, which in my opinion would be huge there, with or without them because of the enormous fan base. They have shown their own incompetence several times in the past. They are for profit and yet a governmental organization of south korea. If your saying that nothing else similar exists in south korea it's probably because kespa won't allow it to and actively seeks out and destroys competition in their business by exerting the power of their government sanctioned monopoly. Kespa attempted to sell the broadcasting rights for starcraft in 2007, but it's not their intellectual property, it's blizzard's. I'd be pissed too! Kespa is a parasitic organization, they use the players, and they use intellectual property that doesn't belong to them for profit meanwhile claiming all the credit for the existence of esports.
6. We can argue all day about the points of this but at the end of the day kespa looses. They were fools for challenging Blizzard in the first place. Blizzard is going to control the fate of SC2 not kespa. Blizzard will profit, rightfully so, from the use of sc2 for advertising and kespa will go broke. The release of Sc2 will deplete BW's fan base more and more as time goes on.
None of us really know what the future of Starcraft or esports is, but kespa has sealed their own fate. The only way for our questions and concerns to be addressed is time. We'll all just have to wait and see. One thing to be sure, the amount of fans is the #1 determining factor in the future of esports and starcraft, not kespa and not blizzard.
1. without Kespa members, who would finance the pro gaming teams currently? I think 11 of the teams have membership on the board. what would happen if all these huge sponsors pulled out? i mean they are the biggest titans in korean's economy mostly. who will eat the cost of sponsoring all those pro gaming teams? defintely not blizzard.
2. Korea bought licencsing rights for SC:BW. are you kidding me? blizzard was stupid enough to sell it at a cheap price since they didn't see any future in e-sports and paid the price. your bias towards blizzard is amazing.
3. how many of us actually stay up and use the streams provided to us by Daum/etc?
4. how long do you really think an RTS game will last in the US market for marketability? history has shown us that mostly FPS, sports games like madden, and WOW are the cash cows of the US. C&C 3 died out quick. is War3 even alive? and Dota... that aint even a RTS, its more FPS than RTS.
5. i thought the ppl under investigation for the gambling scene was players throwing games, and their relationship with bookies. we know kespa is a money hungry bastard. but at least they continue to finance korean progaming. you know for damn sure blizzard is just as greedy and i can see them pulling out if they don't see immediate returns on investments. they are not in this for the long haul, they want someone else to do all the work and reap all the profits from it. why else would they eliminate LAN? they must go through blizzards bnet to play ne games. I cant wait to see China hack SC2, you know its coming. they will defintely add a lan feature to the game and pirate the shit out of it. they never much cared for copy right laws, but this will be the first time i full support them in this cheating endevor.
6. in the end, e-sports loses. the fans loses. the players loses. Kespa is mostly multi million/billion dollar industries who don't necessarily need e-sports for their revenue. its just a nice piece of change, but the fact of the matter is, the only ones who suffer are the fans, the players and the sport itself. blizzard and kespa dont need e-sports to succeed. kespa as an organization does, but not as sole members.
i just dont see e-sports suceeding for an RTS outside of Asia and maybe europe. it will never succeed in the USA, where it can be shown on prime time television with multiple team sponsorships and a regular league instead of the bullshit once a year WCG or blizzcon. whatever though, i hope they settle their differences. korean scene is just so much more epic than the foreigner counterparts.
1. Any company that wants there advertisements to reach millions of viewers through the internet will sponsor them. 2. Blizzard is saying that Kespa is not respecting their IP rights. I believe them. 3. How many people watch streams and vods of starcraft and progaming? Millions and Millions, look at mlg or hdstarcrafts channel 4. RTS games will thrive in the US market as long as there are legions of fans and advertising dollars to be made. 5.Officials have been implicated and it has been implicated that kespa has been aware of it for years and it has been said that kespa actually had negotiations with gambling sites. It's difficult to know what exactly has occurred because Kespa is stopping the truth from seeing the light of day. Your totally right about china lol! I believe the lan getting removed is an attempt to stop people from using there game to make profits illegally. So Blizzard can stop people from running tournaments and profiting without them. Blizzard is not nearly as greedy as people seem to think, they do quite a bit of things that are the opposite of greedy. As for other people doing all the work? How long has Blizzard been working on SC2, how much time and resources have they put into it? They deserve the revenues derived from their creation. 6. I for one believe the fans have more to gain by not allowing corrupt organizations like kespa to control esports. I believe kespa doesn't deserve the credit for esports, They just benifit from it. The die hard fans and players are what have made it so big deserve the majority of the credit.
I think the future of esports in the US and Europe will be nothing but growth. I sincerely hope the future proves all of the doubter dead wrong and esports gets better with the death of kespa!
Why would anyone accept these terms blizzard has given? The terms are made to butcher e-sports since there won't be ANYONE willing to sponsor. At least not with these conditions. Blizzard want to control e-sports even more then KeSPA is, and if e-sport would succeed in EU or US Blizzard sure wants to take credit for it and of course drain as much money as possible. Cause that's what Blizzards known for. Draining money.
I keep seeing people say things like Blizz will butcher esports if given these demands. What exactly about these demands scream butchering. We've had at least 3 very concrete posts about the Image protection and Copyright Infringement causes for those demands, none of which supersede what Blizzard is entitled to. Are all of you that keep spewing out this crap that esports will die just choosing to ignore those posts because they're TLDR? They are the ONLY posts that you absolutely need to read in this thread, because they explain EXACTLY why blizzard is asking for such things as audits, and veto power, because they have EVERYTHING to lose if the shit hits the fan as an entire company who LIVES off of it's namesake and IP. Seriously, I feel like there's maybe a handful of people > 18 who is reading this thread and understands the implications of all of this, and then a bunch of <18 kids who just scream bloody murder without even understanding the issue at hand.
Yes, cuz blizzard OBVIOUSLY wants to kill it's own profit gains by killing off eSports. C'mon be realistic.
On May 05 2010 02:14 Kazeyonoma wrote: I keep seeing people say things like Blizz will butcher esports if given these demands. What exactly about these demands scream butchering. We've had at least 3 very concrete posts about the Image protection and Copyright Infringement causes for those demands, none of which supersede what Blizzard is entitled to. Are all of you that keep spewing out this crap that esports will die just choosing to ignore those posts because they're TLDR? They are the ONLY posts that you absolutely need to read in this thread, because they explain EXACTLY why blizzard is asking for such things as audits, and veto power, because they have EVERYTHING to lose if the shit hits the fan as an entire company who LIVES off of it's namesake and IP. Seriously, I feel like there's maybe a handful of people > 18 who is reading this thread and understands the implications of all of this, and then a bunch of <18 kids who just scream bloody murder without even understanding the issue at hand.
Yes, cuz blizzard OBVIOUSLY wants to kill it's own profit gains by killing off eSports. C'mon be realistic.
Yes, they're willing to butcher esports, all for the sake of their face. And it's justified, like you said, because they do have everything to lose should the shit hit the fan.
On May 04 2010 11:51 Reborn8u wrote: COPYRIGHT LAWS ARE IRRELEVANT! If blizzard feels they are being infringed on by kespa they just turn off their access to BNET (ipbans anyone) no need to waste time and money on courts, then Kespa no longer has a product
Is this true though? Can't kespa just switch to like a modified lan client (trust me there will definitely be one) or something? Before anyone says its against EULA, EULA is not always defendable even in US courts, to say nothing of korean courts. And since they will still be buying the games its not pirating so its not outright illegal.
However, chances are more likely they'll just stick with Starcraft 1 which blizz can't do anything about.
On May 05 2010 02:14 Kazeyonoma wrote: I keep seeing people say things like Blizz will butcher esports if given these demands. What exactly about these demands scream butchering. We've had at least 3 very concrete posts about the Image protection and Copyright Infringement causes for those demands, none of which supersede what Blizzard is entitled to. Are all of you that keep spewing out this crap that esports will die just choosing to ignore those posts because they're TLDR? They are the ONLY posts that you absolutely need to read in this thread, because they explain EXACTLY why blizzard is asking for such things as audits, and veto power, because they have EVERYTHING to lose if the shit hits the fan as an entire company who LIVES off of it's namesake and IP. Seriously, I feel like there's maybe a handful of people > 18 who is reading this thread and understands the implications of all of this, and then a bunch of <18 kids who just scream bloody murder without even understanding the issue at hand.
Yes, cuz blizzard OBVIOUSLY wants to kill it's own profit gains by killing off eSports. C'mon be realistic.
E-sports does not profit Blizzard. Once they sold their copies of the game that will be it. Just look at what happened to WoW-Arena when Blizzard started taking fee's and shit like that. Almost all major coverage backed out and the only thing the Arena players can do is wait for Blizz-con. Wc3 is the same story. Mega hype when the game came, then there was an expansion and that's about it. It never got as big as SC:BW even tho it had the potential.
Sometimes you need to ask yourself why SC:BW is the only major successful E-sport. The only answer is Korea ---> which is KeSPA.
I can see both sides. Blizzard feels like they deserve something more because it's their game. But at the same time if it wasn't for "KeSPA" and the whole Korean E-Sport scene I don't think starcraft would be NEAR as popular. That being said it's messy due to both organizations being from two different countries, and each has their own idea about the way E-Sports should be done.
On May 04 2010 11:14 Hot_Bid wrote: While your first response may be "yes, ofc Blizzard has CP rights, it made the game!!", looking at it from a copyright perspective (I'm not a copyright lawyer so don't quote me), Blizzard may not have rights to secondary user generated content, even if they specify this in their licensing agreements.
For example, does the person who invented baseball have rights to ticket proceeds of every single baseball game ever played? A few years ago there was a movie about people doing NY Times crossword puzzles, does the NYT have rights to proceeds from that movie because it depicted people playing their game?
Its not a black and white issue at all and will probably be litigated at some point, and if I had to go with my gut, I'd say its pretty close to swinging either way, at least with a US court.
Ok first of all i was not able to read every post in this thread so please have mercy if this has been said before
Secondly I am also no lawyler so I might be wrong about this, but i think that analogy is not 100% correct. Simply because the person who invented baseball was no profit oriented corporation with employees who make a living inventing new games.
While I am not sure if there is a legal difference here, I strongly believe there should be one!
Also, to adress some posters pointing out KESPA is not in America: I was under the impression this is completly irrelevant as long as the corporation holding the copyright (Blizzard) is based in the states. Am I wrong about this?
Sorry if some parts of this feel "muddy" but it is not really easy to dicuss business law in a foreign language.
On May 04 2010 11:14 Hot_Bid wrote: While your first response may be "yes, ofc Blizzard has CP rights, it made the game!!", looking at it from a copyright perspective (I'm not a copyright lawyer so don't quote me), Blizzard may not have rights to secondary user generated content, even if they specify this in their licensing agreements.
For example, does the person who invented baseball have rights to ticket proceeds of every single baseball game ever played? A few years ago there was a movie about people doing NY Times crossword puzzles, does the NYT have rights to proceeds from that movie because it depicted people playing their game?
Its not a black and white issue at all and will probably be litigated at some point, and if I had to go with my gut, I'd say its pretty close to swinging either way, at least with a US court.
Ok first of all i was not able to read every post in this thread so please have mercy if this has been said before
Secondly I am also no lawyler so I might be wrong about this, but i think that analogy is not 100% correct. Simply because the person who invented baseball was no profit oriented corporation with employees who make a living inventing new games.
While I am not sure if there is a legal difference here, I strongly believe there should be one!
Also, to adress some posters pointing out KESPA is not in America: I was under the impression this is completly irrelevant as long as the corporation holding the copyright (Blizzard) is based in the states. Am I wrong about this?
Sorry if some parts of this feel "muddy" but it is not really easy to dicuss business law in a foreign language.
"profit oriented corporation with employees who make a living inventing new games." "who make a living inventing new games." "new games." ...... Leave the e-sports scene alone Blizzard!!
On May 04 2010 11:14 Hot_Bid wrote: While your first response may be "yes, ofc Blizzard has CP rights, it made the game!!", looking at it from a copyright perspective (I'm not a copyright lawyer so don't quote me), Blizzard may not have rights to secondary user generated content, even if they specify this in their licensing agreements.
For example, does the person who invented baseball have rights to ticket proceeds of every single baseball game ever played? A few years ago there was a movie about people doing NY Times crossword puzzles, does the NYT have rights to proceeds from that movie because it depicted people playing their game?
Its not a black and white issue at all and will probably be litigated at some point, and if I had to go with my gut, I'd say its pretty close to swinging either way, at least with a US court.
Ok first of all i was not able to read every post in this thread so please have mercy if this has been said before
Secondly I am also no lawyler so I might be wrong about this, but i think that analogy is not 100% correct. Simply because the person who invented baseball was no profit oriented corporation with employees who make a living inventing new games.
While I am not sure if there is a legal difference here, I strongly believe there should be one!
Also, to adress some posters pointing out KESPA is not in America: I was under the impression this is completly irrelevant as long as the corporation holding the copyright (Blizzard) is based in the states. Am I wrong about this?
Sorry if some parts of this feel "muddy" but it is not really easy to dicuss business law in a foreign language.
This is true but what I mean by it is that they come from two different ways of doing business. I've been to Korea 4 times now and everything about their culture is different. The way they act, conduct business, spend their time. So all i'm saying is that two companies from two different ways of thinking, both feeling entitled for good reasons can be a messy situation.
블리자드의 협상 요구안 가운데 이해되지 않는 부분은 또 있다. 각 기업이 계약을 통해 확보하고 있는 선수들에 대한 권리도 요구한 것으로 확인됐다.
블리자드가 2007년부터 한국e스포츠협회와의 협상에 내놓은 요구 사항에는 '모든 대회를 통해 프로게이머와 계약할 수 있는 권리를 갖는다'라는 조항이 있는 것으로 알려졌다. 이는 현재 프로게이머와 계약을 체결하고 있는 기업들을 무시하는 처사라 할 수 있다.
1999년부터 프로게임단이 창설되고 기업이 운영하는 게임단이 확대되면서 선수들의 초상권과 성명권은 한국e스포츠협회에 귀속되어 있다. 기업이 선수들과의 계약을 통해 연봉이나 인센티브 등을 지급하고 있는 상황에서 블리자드의 선수와 관련된 요구는 무리하다는 비판이 일고 있다.
블리자드의 요구 사항이 수용된다면 공군을 제외한 11개 프로게임단은 프로게이머를 육성하더라도 블리자드와 또 하나의 계약을 성사해야 한다. 연봉은 기업이 주고 블리자드가 필요할 때면 내줘야 하는 상황에 처한다. 이는 프로게임단을 운영하고 있는 기업에 대한 권리 침해로 해석할 수 있는 부분이다.
블리자드의 협상 요구안 가운데 이해되지 않는 부분은 또 있다. 각 기업이 계약을 통해 확보하고 있는 선수들에 대한 권리도 요구한 것으로 확인됐다.
블리자드가 2007년부터 한국e스포츠협회와의 협상에 내놓은 요구 사항에는 '모든 대회를 통해 프로게이머와 계약할 수 있는 권리를 갖는다'라는 조항이 있는 것으로 알려졌다. 이는 현재 프로게이머와 계약을 체결하고 있는 기업들을 무시하는 처사라 할 수 있다.
1999년부터 프로게임단이 창설되고 기업이 운영하는 게임단이 확대되면서 선수들의 초상권과 성명권은 한국e스포츠협회에 귀속되어 있다. 기업이 선수들과의 계약을 통해 연봉이나 인센티브 등을 지급하고 있는 상황에서 블리자드의 선수와 관련된 요구는 무리하다는 비판이 일고 있다.
블리자드의 요구 사항이 수용된다면 공군을 제외한 11개 프로게임단은 프로게이머를 육성하더라도 블리자드와 또 하나의 계약을 성사해야 한다. 연봉은 기업이 주고 블리자드가 필요할 때면 내줘야 하는 상황에 처한다. 이는 프로게임단을 운영하고 있는 기업에 대한 권리 침해로 해석할 수 있는 부분이다.
On May 04 2010 07:46 redtooth wrote: i'm actually surprised at the number of people taking kespa's side. just try to remember a time you've heard kespa's name associated with a positive act? they are just a bunch of greedy bureaucratic idiots who are trying their best to stay alive with SC2 looming around the corner.
You're being so close minded. If what Kespa said here is true, then Blizzard is being fat greedy pigs trying to basically OWN kespa. What Kespa said were pretty concrete claims, so I doubt they were lying.
블리자드의 협상 요구안 가운데 이해되지 않는 부분은 또 있다. 각 기업이 계약을 통해 확보하고 있는 선수들에 대한 권리도 요구한 것으로 확인됐다.
블리자드가 2007년부터 한국e스포츠협회와의 협상에 내놓은 요구 사항에는 '모든 대회를 통해 프로게이머와 계약할 수 있는 권리를 갖는다'라는 조항이 있는 것으로 알려졌다. 이는 현재 프로게이머와 계약을 체결하고 있는 기업들을 무시하는 처사라 할 수 있다.
1999년부터 프로게임단이 창설되고 기업이 운영하는 게임단이 확대되면서 선수들의 초상권과 성명권은 한국e스포츠협회에 귀속되어 있다. 기업이 선수들과의 계약을 통해 연봉이나 인센티브 등을 지급하고 있는 상황에서 블리자드의 선수와 관련된 요구는 무리하다는 비판이 일고 있다.
블리자드의 요구 사항이 수용된다면 공군을 제외한 11개 프로게임단은 프로게이머를 육성하더라도 블리자드와 또 하나의 계약을 성사해야 한다. 연봉은 기업이 주고 블리자드가 필요할 때면 내줘야 하는 상황에 처한다. 이는 프로게임단을 운영하고 있는 기업에 대한 권리 침해로 해석할 수 있는 부분이다.
Blizzard is a corporation with only responsibility towards shareholders to make profits. When they are talking about making best games for us, the players, they actually mean "we want to make best games possible, so you love them, and you buy them, so we make money for our employers - shareholders". When they want broadcasting rights they care about shareholders.
Now KESPA, well, it ain't the best organization out there, and it surely had failed us a lot of times in the past, but they are the people representing not only themselves, but Korean govt, television, players and fans, including us - foreigners.
Everyone's in it for the money, don't fail to realize most of us live in capitalist - money driven markets. From this point of view I believe KESPA, being the underdog, will represent us better and bring proper development to the gaming industry, as they have done so far.
I recommend some of you a movie "The Corporation" (written and based on a book by Joel Bakan, even better) - this will explain to you how and why some of the things that are happening work.
We all know, Blizzard is a high-morale type of game company. I don't think Blizzard had any bad intention in their negotiations. Whatever is necessary to expand e-Sports internationally.
Pretty much, what I got from this article is; KeSPa is trying hard to blame Blizzard the bad guy. And in the end of it, they ask to re-open negotiations. That's not how you do it! You're not suppose to talk shit about the person you want to do business with. All I see is how unprofessional KeSPA responded to Blizzard.
I think there was quite an exaggeration in their claims. Like for instance, Blizzard wanting full control of the progaming teams... and it was like a big deal. But really, for E-Sports to get going, blizzard needs control of the team to do their tournaments and crap. Last I heard, blizzard was denied having pro-gaming teams in their tournaments.
Other shit like having to go by Blizzard before implementing anything. Whats the big deal in that? If KeSPA and Blizzard are business partners, both of them have to consult each other before implementing things.
Anyways, I rather see something more professional and official rather this crybaby response to Blizzard ceasing negotiations.
On May 05 2010 02:51 emucxg wrote: guys, check this out
[데일리e스포츠 남윤성 기자] 초상권-성명권도 기업에 없다?
블리자드의 협상 요구안 가운데 이해되지 않는 부분은 또 있다. 각 기업이 계약을 통해 확보하고 있는 선수들에 대한 권리도 요구한 것으로 확인됐다.
블리자드가 2007년부터 한국e스포츠협회와의 협상에 내놓은 요구 사항에는 '모든 대회를 통해 프로게이머와 계약할 수 있는 권리를 갖는다'라는 조항이 있는 것으로 알려졌다. 이는 현재 프로게이머와 계약을 체결하고 있는 기업들을 무시하는 처사라 할 수 있다.
1999년부터 프로게임단이 창설되고 기업이 운영하는 게임단이 확대되면서 선수들의 초상권과 성명권은 한국e스포츠협회에 귀속되어 있다. 기업이 선수들과의 계약을 통해 연봉이나 인센티브 등을 지급하고 있는 상황에서 블리자드의 선수와 관련된 요구는 무리하다는 비판이 일고 있다.
블리자드의 요구 사항이 수용된다면 공군을 제외한 11개 프로게임단은 프로게이머를 육성하더라도 블리자드와 또 하나의 계약을 성사해야 한다. 연봉은 기업이 주고 블리자드가 필요할 때면 내줘야 하는 상황에 처한다. 이는 프로게임단을 운영하고 있는 기업에 대한 권리 침해로 해석할 수 있는 부분이다.
On May 05 2010 03:36 Lokian wrote:We all know, Blizzard is a high-morale type of game company.
I don't mean to start flaming, but you are delusional. Amnesty International, Unicef, Greenpeace and Wikimedia Foundation are high-morale type of "companies", Blizzard is a company with making profit as it's only objective. Making good games and player satisfaction is a mean to that end, not a purpose.
On May 05 2010 03:36 Lokian wrote:We all know, Blizzard is a high-morale type of game company.
I don't mean to start flaming, but you are delusional. Amnesty International, Unicef, Greenpeace and Wikimedia Foundation are high-morale type of "companies", Blizzard is a company with making profit as it's only objective. Making good games and player satisfaction is a mean to that end, not a purpose.
On May 05 2010 02:51 emucxg wrote: guys, check this out
[데일리e스포츠 남윤성 기자] 초상권-성명권도 기업에 없다?
블리자드의 협상 요구안 가운데 이해되지 않는 부분은 또 있다. 각 기업이 계약을 통해 확보하고 있는 선수들에 대한 권리도 요구한 것으로 확인됐다.
블리자드가 2007년부터 한국e스포츠협회와의 협상에 내놓은 요구 사항에는 '모든 대회를 통해 프로게이머와 계약할 수 있는 권리를 갖는다'라는 조항이 있는 것으로 알려졌다. 이는 현재 프로게이머와 계약을 체결하고 있는 기업들을 무시하는 처사라 할 수 있다.
1999년부터 프로게임단이 창설되고 기업이 운영하는 게임단이 확대되면서 선수들의 초상권과 성명권은 한국e스포츠협회에 귀속되어 있다. 기업이 선수들과의 계약을 통해 연봉이나 인센티브 등을 지급하고 있는 상황에서 블리자드의 선수와 관련된 요구는 무리하다는 비판이 일고 있다.
블리자드의 요구 사항이 수용된다면 공군을 제외한 11개 프로게임단은 프로게이머를 육성하더라도 블리자드와 또 하나의 계약을 성사해야 한다. 연봉은 기업이 주고 블리자드가 필요할 때면 내줘야 하는 상황에 처한다. 이는 프로게임단을 운영하고 있는 기업에 대한 권리 침해로 해석할 수 있는 부분이다.
Basically says Blizzard want control of the progaming teams.
Man.. They are insane.. Just because they made the game doesnt mean they can control everything.. Whats next? Ask royalties from TL because of all the discussion about their games here and all the vods and TL tournaments? Also day9 must pay x amount of $ for every show he makes. Or say that all the banning of people and thread closing here puts a bad image on them as makers of these games..
Maybe the interpretation of "control" is different from how you perceive it. I think there will be more details under "control" but Kespa tried to mention it so it would look like Blizzard is the bad guy. I don't think when Blizzard is asking for control they mean full control.
On May 05 2010 02:51 emucxg wrote: guys, check this out
[데일리e스포츠 남윤성 기자] 초상권-성명권도 기업에 없다?
블리자드의 협상 요구안 가운데 이해되지 않는 부분은 또 있다. 각 기업이 계약을 통해 확보하고 있는 선수들에 대한 권리도 요구한 것으로 확인됐다.
블리자드가 2007년부터 한국e스포츠협회와의 협상에 내놓은 요구 사항에는 '모든 대회를 통해 프로게이머와 계약할 수 있는 권리를 갖는다'라는 조항이 있는 것으로 알려졌다. 이는 현재 프로게이머와 계약을 체결하고 있는 기업들을 무시하는 처사라 할 수 있다.
1999년부터 프로게임단이 창설되고 기업이 운영하는 게임단이 확대되면서 선수들의 초상권과 성명권은 한국e스포츠협회에 귀속되어 있다. 기업이 선수들과의 계약을 통해 연봉이나 인센티브 등을 지급하고 있는 상황에서 블리자드의 선수와 관련된 요구는 무리하다는 비판이 일고 있다.
블리자드의 요구 사항이 수용된다면 공군을 제외한 11개 프로게임단은 프로게이머를 육성하더라도 블리자드와 또 하나의 계약을 성사해야 한다. 연봉은 기업이 주고 블리자드가 필요할 때면 내줘야 하는 상황에 처한다. 이는 프로게임단을 운영하고 있는 기업에 대한 권리 침해로 해석할 수 있는 부분이다.
On May 04 2010 07:46 redtooth wrote: i'm actually surprised at the number of people taking kespa's side. just try to remember a time you've heard kespa's name associated with a positive act? they are just a bunch of greedy bureaucratic idiots who are trying their best to stay alive with SC2 looming around the corner.
You're being so close minded. If what Kespa said here is true, then Blizzard is being fat greedy pigs trying to basically OWN kespa. What Kespa said were pretty concrete claims, so I doubt they were lying.
Blizzard was always like that. They even attempted to make money from DotA.
On May 04 2010 22:49 FortuneSyn wrote: Don't get me wrong, i hate kespa. Muscling GOMTV out of the scene is the most despicable form of beating competition and a perfect example of abusing their e-sports monopoly. Their interests are NOT the players or fans, so don't buy their puppy face press appearance.
What is it that KeSPA did wrong? Do you hate the NFL for doing it to the XFL? Even the WWF leagues did the same thing. UFC is the same way. If you are in the UFC, you cant go and fight for another league. There is nothing wrong with that. People that dislike KeSPA don't realize how good KeSPA is.
On May 05 2010 02:51 emucxg wrote: guys, check this out
[데일리e스포츠 남윤성 기자] 초상권-성명권도 기업에 없다?
블리자드의 협상 요구안 가운데 이해되지 않는 부분은 또 있다. 각 기업이 계약을 통해 확보하고 있는 선수들에 대한 권리도 요구한 것으로 확인됐다.
블리자드가 2007년부터 한국e스포츠협회와의 협상에 내놓은 요구 사항에는 '모든 대회를 통해 프로게이머와 계약할 수 있는 권리를 갖는다'라는 조항이 있는 것으로 알려졌다. 이는 현재 프로게이머와 계약을 체결하고 있는 기업들을 무시하는 처사라 할 수 있다.
1999년부터 프로게임단이 창설되고 기업이 운영하는 게임단이 확대되면서 선수들의 초상권과 성명권은 한국e스포츠협회에 귀속되어 있다. 기업이 선수들과의 계약을 통해 연봉이나 인센티브 등을 지급하고 있는 상황에서 블리자드의 선수와 관련된 요구는 무리하다는 비판이 일고 있다.
블리자드의 요구 사항이 수용된다면 공군을 제외한 11개 프로게임단은 프로게이머를 육성하더라도 블리자드와 또 하나의 계약을 성사해야 한다. 연봉은 기업이 주고 블리자드가 필요할 때면 내줘야 하는 상황에 처한다. 이는 프로게임단을 운영하고 있는 기업에 대한 권리 침해로 해석할 수 있는 부분이다.
From Blizzard's terms of negotiation there is another part that baffles me. It has been proven that Blizzard has asked for rights to the individual players that are signed under their sponsors.
On the terms of negotiations provided by Blizzard since 2007, there is a clause that says 'Through any competition Blizzard withholds the right to sign any player.' Blizzard is blatantly disregarding the rights of corporations that are sponsoring the players.
Ever since the inception of progaming teams in 1999 and the spread of corporate sponsors, Kespa has withheld all copyrights associated with content generated by players and their signing rights. In an age where corporations are already signing players with paid salaries and additive incentives, Blizzard's demand to hand over all rights to the players has generated much criticism that it is unreasonable and excessive.
If Blizzard's terms are met, then all 11 progaming teams excluding Airforce ACE must have their players sign an additional contract with Blizzard. The players will continue to receive salaries from their sponsors, but once Blizzard decides that it needs a specific player, the player will be bound to Blizzard's terms and discontinue playing for its main sponsor [T/N: I am 90% sure the article implies that the sponsor will have to continue paying the player even if the player has to miss important competitions and events due to Blizzard's scheduling]. This can be construed as a blatant disregard for the rights of the corporate sponsors that run these progaming teams..
On May 05 2010 02:51 emucxg wrote: guys, check this out
[데일리e스포츠 남윤성 기자] 초상권-성명권도 기업에 없다?
블리자드의 협상 요구안 가운데 이해되지 않는 부분은 또 있다. 각 기업이 계약을 통해 확보하고 있는 선수들에 대한 권리도 요구한 것으로 확인됐다.
블리자드가 2007년부터 한국e스포츠협회와의 협상에 내놓은 요구 사항에는 '모든 대회를 통해 프로게이머와 계약할 수 있는 권리를 갖는다'라는 조항이 있는 것으로 알려졌다. 이는 현재 프로게이머와 계약을 체결하고 있는 기업들을 무시하는 처사라 할 수 있다.
1999년부터 프로게임단이 창설되고 기업이 운영하는 게임단이 확대되면서 선수들의 초상권과 성명권은 한국e스포츠협회에 귀속되어 있다. 기업이 선수들과의 계약을 통해 연봉이나 인센티브 등을 지급하고 있는 상황에서 블리자드의 선수와 관련된 요구는 무리하다는 비판이 일고 있다.
블리자드의 요구 사항이 수용된다면 공군을 제외한 11개 프로게임단은 프로게이머를 육성하더라도 블리자드와 또 하나의 계약을 성사해야 한다. 연봉은 기업이 주고 블리자드가 필요할 때면 내줘야 하는 상황에 처한다. 이는 프로게임단을 운영하고 있는 기업에 대한 권리 침해로 해석할 수 있는 부분이다.
From Blizzard's terms of negotiation there is another part that baffles me. It has been proven that Blizzard has asked for rights to the individual players that are signed under their sponsors.
On the terms of negotiations provided by Blizzard since 2007, there is a clause that says 'Through any competition Blizzard withholds the right to sign any player.' Blizzard is blatantly disregarding the rights of corporations that are sponsoring the players.
Ever since the inception of progaming teams in 1999 and the spread of corporate sponsors, Kespa has withheld all copyrights associated with content generated by players and their signing rights. In an age where corporations are already signing players with paid salaries and additive incentives, Blizzard's demand to hand over all rights to the players has generated much criticism that it is unreasonable and excessive.
If Blizzard's terms are met, then all 11 progaming teams excluding Airforce ACE must have their players sign an additional contract with Blizzard. The players will continue to receive salaries from their sponsors, but once Blizzard decides that it needs a specific player, the player will be bound to Blizzard's terms and discontinue playing for its main sponsor [T/N: I am 90% sure the article implies that the sponsor will have to continue paying the player even if the player has to miss important competitions and events due to Blizzard's scheduling]. This can be construed as a blatant disregard for the rights of the corporate sponsors that run these progaming teams..
Thanks for the translation!
I may be in the minority, but I hope KeSPA wins this fight.
I think as a result of Blizzard and KESPA fighting over pieces of a pie that isn't there yet, the pie won't be as big, tasty and long lasting as it could be.
I know SC2 is hailed as this big thing in world wide e-sports, but if companies already try to fill their pockets when no real money has been made yet, there is little chance that SC2 will have a long life as an E-sport.
It's been said before. But KESPA did not create SC as an E-sport in Korea. The fans and players did, by creating a community based on the game, the love of playing the game and the respect for people who are skilled at playing the game. This was expanded when broadcasting stations started televising the matches played at the big tournaments we now know as the OSL and MSL. It was created from the bottom-up. Only then did the money flow in.
I cannot see a top-down model of a SC2 e-sports scene happening. Blizzard is being retarded if they want the level of control claimed by KESPA as it will kill SC2 e-sports before it has the room and time to flourish.
I mean will there be a SC2 based TSL3 when Blizzard wants a a high level of control over various aspects of the tournament and wants to be thrown some cash to boot ?
On May 05 2010 02:51 emucxg wrote: guys, check this out
[데일리e스포츠 남윤성 기자] 초상권-성명권도 기업에 없다?
블리자드의 협상 요구안 가운데 이해되지 않는 부분은 또 있다. 각 기업이 계약을 통해 확보하고 있는 선수들에 대한 권리도 요구한 것으로 확인됐다.
블리자드가 2007년부터 한국e스포츠협회와의 협상에 내놓은 요구 사항에는 '모든 대회를 통해 프로게이머와 계약할 수 있는 권리를 갖는다'라는 조항이 있는 것으로 알려졌다. 이는 현재 프로게이머와 계약을 체결하고 있는 기업들을 무시하는 처사라 할 수 있다.
1999년부터 프로게임단이 창설되고 기업이 운영하는 게임단이 확대되면서 선수들의 초상권과 성명권은 한국e스포츠협회에 귀속되어 있다. 기업이 선수들과의 계약을 통해 연봉이나 인센티브 등을 지급하고 있는 상황에서 블리자드의 선수와 관련된 요구는 무리하다는 비판이 일고 있다.
블리자드의 요구 사항이 수용된다면 공군을 제외한 11개 프로게임단은 프로게이머를 육성하더라도 블리자드와 또 하나의 계약을 성사해야 한다. 연봉은 기업이 주고 블리자드가 필요할 때면 내줘야 하는 상황에 처한다. 이는 프로게임단을 운영하고 있는 기업에 대한 권리 침해로 해석할 수 있는 부분이다.
From Blizzard's terms of negotiation there is another part that baffles me. It has been proven that Blizzard has asked for rights to the individual players that are signed under their sponsors.
On the terms of negotiations provided by Blizzard since 2007, there is a clause that says 'Through any competition Blizzard withholds the right to sign any player.' Blizzard is blatantly disregarding the rights of corporations that are sponsoring the players.
Ever since the inception of progaming teams in 1999 and the spread of corporate sponsors, Kespa has withheld all copyrights associated with content generated by players and their signing rights. In an age where corporations are already signing players with paid salaries and additive incentives, Blizzard's demand to hand over all rights to the players has generated much criticism that it is unreasonable and excessive.
If Blizzard's terms are met, then all 11 progaming teams excluding Airforce ACE must have their players sign an additional contract with Blizzard. The players will continue to receive salaries from their sponsors, but once Blizzard decides that it needs a specific player, the player will be bound to Blizzard's terms and discontinue playing for its main sponsor [T/N: I am 90% sure the article implies that the sponsor will have to continue paying the player even if the player has to miss important competitions and events due to Blizzard's scheduling]. This can be construed as a blatant disregard for the rights of the corporate sponsors that run these progaming teams..
Thanks for the translation!
I may be in the minority, but I hope KeSPA wins this fight.
I don't think you are in the minority, majority of netizens on fomos are taking sides with kespa and you know how much korean netizens hate kespa. Funny thing is alot of their comments start with phrases like "Despite the shit jobs that kespa has pulled in the past..." or "Even though their incompetencies rival a group run by middle schoolers..."
On May 05 2010 03:36 Lokian wrote:We all know, Blizzard is a high-morale type of game company.
I don't mean to start flaming, but you are delusional. Amnesty International, Unicef, Greenpeace and Wikimedia Foundation are high-morale type of "companies", Blizzard is a company with making profit as it's only objective. Making good games and player satisfaction is a mean to that end, not a purpose.
And how do they make a profit if not by supplying the market demand with good games?
I don't understand people's arguments that w\o kespa, there would be no esports. I wasn't around when kespa started but I cannot logically understand why is a regulatory body required for tournaments and leagues to take place. This comes firstly from my ignorance of what kespa does actually, is it just allocating licenses and regulating tournaments and rankings? And it's government mandated, right?
If it is, how is it that the issuance of licenses (meaning, restricting invalidated players from playing), regulations (more restrictions on the type of play allowed) such a dire and needed service that couldn't have been performed by GOM for example?
Aren't thousands of sports associations elsewhere in the world privately able to do all that without government control? Why would it be any different in the land of Starcraft?
I don't see why a good player would need a license to be recognized as a good player. Or for players to say GG every match. If a tournament organizer can't do it, and feels that it needs a third party to do that job for him then he can hire his own KeSPA to do it for him. Then, if other organizers consistently feel the same way, they can hire the same third party, and maybe if it's so good at its job, it will be recognized as the place-to-go for esports rules and guidelines. A regulatory, non-coercive body can arise naturally, and people will recognize it as "needed" indeed.
... more simply put, the business model of esports and maybe any sport for that matter, is not Kespa funds everything -> players. Kespa draws their funds from the fans, just like the sponsors and teams. The companies that have teams or sponsor the tournaments fund it out of the (you could say proven) expectation that fans watch the games and buy more products from the sponsors.
the model ultimately is...
fans -> sponsors -> players
As long as the fans keep demanding games, even if KeSPA were to fall, another company would "fill the gap", like others said. Because there's a profit opportunity. Because "greed" and capitalism aren't evil monsters like some were made to believe... profit means the business model is sustainable and growing. Absolutely nothing wrong with it. If you don't like other people's or organizations profit, then do it yourself and compete with them, undercut them, outperform them! Oh wait, can't do that with KeSPA in korea, right. Because they're thuuuugs!
edit: reason why KeSPA blows is because other organizations aren't allowed to compete, obviously.. so they can be as inefficient as they want at delivering what the fans want, and still stay afloat...
On May 05 2010 02:51 emucxg wrote: guys, check this out
[데일리e스포츠 남윤성 기자] 초상권-성명권도 기업에 없다?
블리자드의 협상 요구안 가운데 이해되지 않는 부분은 또 있다. 각 기업이 계약을 통해 확보하고 있는 선수들에 대한 권리도 요구한 것으로 확인됐다.
블리자드가 2007년부터 한국e스포츠협회와의 협상에 내놓은 요구 사항에는 '모든 대회를 통해 프로게이머와 계약할 수 있는 권리를 갖는다'라는 조항이 있는 것으로 알려졌다. 이는 현재 프로게이머와 계약을 체결하고 있는 기업들을 무시하는 처사라 할 수 있다.
1999년부터 프로게임단이 창설되고 기업이 운영하는 게임단이 확대되면서 선수들의 초상권과 성명권은 한국e스포츠협회에 귀속되어 있다. 기업이 선수들과의 계약을 통해 연봉이나 인센티브 등을 지급하고 있는 상황에서 블리자드의 선수와 관련된 요구는 무리하다는 비판이 일고 있다.
블리자드의 요구 사항이 수용된다면 공군을 제외한 11개 프로게임단은 프로게이머를 육성하더라도 블리자드와 또 하나의 계약을 성사해야 한다. 연봉은 기업이 주고 블리자드가 필요할 때면 내줘야 하는 상황에 처한다. 이는 프로게임단을 운영하고 있는 기업에 대한 권리 침해로 해석할 수 있는 부분이다.
From Blizzard's terms of negotiation there is another part that baffles me. It has been proven that Blizzard has asked for rights to the individual players that are signed under their sponsors.
On the terms of negotiations provided by Blizzard since 2007, there is a clause that says 'Through any competition Blizzard withholds the right to sign any player.' Blizzard is blatantly disregarding the rights of corporations that are sponsoring the players.
Ever since the inception of progaming teams in 1999 and the spread of corporate sponsors, Kespa has withheld all copyrights associated with content generated by players and their signing rights. In an age where corporations are already signing players with paid salaries and additive incentives, Blizzard's demand to hand over all rights to the players has generated much criticism that it is unreasonable and excessive.
If Blizzard's terms are met, then all 11 progaming teams excluding Airforce ACE must have their players sign an additional contract with Blizzard. The players will continue to receive salaries from their sponsors, but once Blizzard decides that it needs a specific player, the player will be bound to Blizzard's terms and discontinue playing for its main sponsor [T/N: I am 90% sure the article implies that the sponsor will have to continue paying the player even if the player has to miss important competitions and events due to Blizzard's scheduling]. This can be construed as a blatant disregard for the rights of the corporate sponsors that run these progaming teams..
It's almost like FIFA: "Hey, we have the World Cup so lend us all your expensive players and you'll get nothing out of it, maybe a bill if the player gets injured." and "There's going to be an exhibition match, lend us your players despite if you have a game or not. Oh, your lost because your main player was sitting on the bench all game? Too bad.". While the former is common to all teams, the second part I am not so sure but it happens all the time in Brazil.
On May 05 2010 02:51 emucxg wrote: guys, check this out
[데일리e스포츠 남윤성 기자] 초상권-성명권도 기업에 없다?
블리자드의 협상 요구안 가운데 이해되지 않는 부분은 또 있다. 각 기업이 계약을 통해 확보하고 있는 선수들에 대한 권리도 요구한 것으로 확인됐다.
블리자드가 2007년부터 한국e스포츠협회와의 협상에 내놓은 요구 사항에는 '모든 대회를 통해 프로게이머와 계약할 수 있는 권리를 갖는다'라는 조항이 있는 것으로 알려졌다. 이는 현재 프로게이머와 계약을 체결하고 있는 기업들을 무시하는 처사라 할 수 있다.
1999년부터 프로게임단이 창설되고 기업이 운영하는 게임단이 확대되면서 선수들의 초상권과 성명권은 한국e스포츠협회에 귀속되어 있다. 기업이 선수들과의 계약을 통해 연봉이나 인센티브 등을 지급하고 있는 상황에서 블리자드의 선수와 관련된 요구는 무리하다는 비판이 일고 있다.
블리자드의 요구 사항이 수용된다면 공군을 제외한 11개 프로게임단은 프로게이머를 육성하더라도 블리자드와 또 하나의 계약을 성사해야 한다. 연봉은 기업이 주고 블리자드가 필요할 때면 내줘야 하는 상황에 처한다. 이는 프로게임단을 운영하고 있는 기업에 대한 권리 침해로 해석할 수 있는 부분이다.
From Blizzard's terms of negotiation there is another part that baffles me. It has been proven that Blizzard has asked for rights to the individual players that are signed under their sponsors.
On the terms of negotiations provided by Blizzard since 2007, there is a clause that says 'Through any competition Blizzard withholds the right to sign any player.' Blizzard is blatantly disregarding the rights of corporations that are sponsoring the players.
Ever since the inception of progaming teams in 1999 and the spread of corporate sponsors, Kespa has withheld all copyrights associated with content generated by players and their signing rights. In an age where corporations are already signing players with paid salaries and additive incentives, Blizzard's demand to hand over all rights to the players has generated much criticism that it is unreasonable and excessive.
If Blizzard's terms are met, then all 11 progaming teams excluding Airforce ACE must have their players sign an additional contract with Blizzard. The players will continue to receive salaries from their sponsors, but once Blizzard decides that it needs a specific player, the player will be bound to Blizzard's terms and discontinue playing for its main sponsor [T/N: I am 90% sure the article implies that the sponsor will have to continue paying the player even if the player has to miss important competitions and events due to Blizzard's scheduling]. ]This can be construed as a blatant disregard for the rights of the corporate sponsors that run these progaming teams..
Lol what the fuck? They call this a negotiation? Hahaha, good joke. Like others have said, I can't believe I am saying this, but gl KESPA.
im going to side with kespa on this. i understand that the players not kespa itself founded esports but the korean esports scene has been going on without blizzard's help or interference
sure kespa fucked up alot but it doesnt give blizzard a reason to interfere and tell kespa to give them their profits
I don't think blizzard is dumb enough to make such a blatantly broken contract that no sane sponsor would sign... but if those ain't lies, I'm still not siding with KeSPA, never ever. Blizzard can go broke and "forbid" anyone from ever playing Starcraft 2, it would still be their decision to make since they made the game. Would be pretty dumb (wasted profit potential), but I'd respect it. (IP rights aside)
Captain Peabody won this thread at page 14. It's the best post I've ever read on the subject but unfortunately it seems like it was too long for most tlnetizens to read.
On May 05 2010 05:16 Yurebis wrote: I don't think blizzard is dumb enough to make such a blatantly broken contract that no sane sponsor would sign... but if those ain't lies, I'm still not siding with KeSPA, never ever. Blizzard can go broke and "forbid" anyone from ever playing Starcraft 2, it would still be their decision to make since they made the game. Would be pretty dumb (wasted profit potential), but I'd respect it. (IP rights aside)
I'm pretty sure their angle is to force KeSPA to either be completely obligated to Blizzard or to just melt away altogether, not make a reasonable partnership. This is the same KeSPA who tried to sell the right to broadcast a product they didn't own, the same KeSPA who muscled out live English commentators on Korean tournaments (GOMTV).
That puts Blizzard in the right in my book, but opinions will always differ. If they can open up e-sports to the world anywhere near as well as it was opened up to Korea by KeSPA, it will be a million times better, even if the production quality or quantity is less. Korea isn't exactly leading the way in SC2 now or anytime soon. Would you really be excited watching inferior games just because they were tied to legendary BW names? I'd much prefer watching the best in the world compete against the best in the world rather than the best in the world outside of KeSPA compete against the best in the world outside of KeSPA.
I wonder how many Blizzard employees are posting here trying to change public opinion that seems to be swaying in favor of Kespa.. (possibly many of the few who are supporting Blizzard on this issue)
On May 05 2010 03:36 Lokian wrote: We all know, Blizzard is a high-morale type of game company. I don't think Blizzard had any bad intention in their negotiations. Whatever is necessary to expand e-Sports internationally.
I believe this kind of thinking is mostly why people support Blizzard. And I think that it is naive. Blizzard is not some club of programmers who create games for fun. They are professionals and even if they are good guys, they can not run their company in whichever way they like it. They have to make business decisions the same way other big companies do it. That they have this good of an image is mostly due to all the public relations work they do for their fans, but they rarely get judged by their business decisions.
On the other hand is KeSPA, which is a governing body for a sport. As with all other organizations, they will be fighting for their profit, but they are mostly dependent on the success of their sport. They will of course fight against organizations trying to take some of the sports popularity and market that on their own (like GOM). And like all other governing bodies they won't always be popular with the fans because they are mostly working with sponsors and broadcasters. But after all, a strong governing body is usually very important for a sport. Some bad examples include Boxing (4 world titles iirc) and also eSports outside of Korea (everyone trying to stake their claim with their own rules and malicious organizations like the cpl).
That there even is an argument between Blizzard and KeSPA is only because Blizzard is holding somewhat of a monopoly for popular games in Korea. For example, in football, there are a lot of products that are needed to play, like the ball or shoes or other clothes (I'm sure there are better examples). None of the creators of said products can claim any right to decide how professional football shoot be run. But that's only because they are replaceable. If there were a lot of games that would be as popular as Starcraft, then this whole discussion wouldn't exist.
What is actually going on is that Blizzard Managers are trying to get as much out of their quasi-monopoly because they realize that control over the sport of Starcraft 2 would not only get them a lot of money in the short run. They'd also strengthen their monopole even more and increase their brand value incredibly for future games.
On May 05 2010 05:26 blazinggpassion wrote: I wonder how many Blizzard employees are posting here trying to change public opinion that seems to be swaying in favor of Kespa.. (possibly many of the few who are supporting Blizzard on this issue)
In a pro-Blizzard thread, you'll get mostly Blizzard supporters posting. In a pro-KeSPA thread, mostly KesPA supporters. Let's not delude ourselves here and be more constructive.
On May 04 2010 07:34 rotinegg wrote: i don't know who's side of the story to believe
I don't like Kespa, but I'm quite sure that they are not lying. Blizzard has become a huge fatass company while Kespa is in comparison a little association fighting for survival in an uncertain market. Always trust the smallest party.
The idea that moral has something to do with Blizzard activities is a joke. Like every medium/big company, Blizzard is trying to make a lot of money short term for its shareholders, period.
On May 05 2010 05:31 Vasoline73 wrote: Anyone who believes Blizzard is actually interested in maintaining a real esports scene is crazy.
Kespa may suck but at least they have experience running the only truely successful esport
Is it crazy to assume Blizzard will try to make money? As long as there's money in eSports, I'd be pretty persuaded to believe such a powerful company would keep it going strong.
And don't go using misinformation like SC:BW being the only "truly successful eSport", etc. What makes Halo and WC3 unsuccessful, exactly?
블리자드의 협상 요구안 가운데 이해되지 않는 부분은 또 있다. 각 기업이 계약을 통해 확보하고 있는 선수들에 대한 권리도 요구한 것으로 확인됐다.
블리자드가 2007년부터 한국e스포츠협회와의 협상에 내놓은 요구 사항에는 '모든 대회를 통해 프로게이머와 계약할 수 있는 권리를 갖는다'라는 조항이 있는 것으로 알려졌다. 이는 현재 프로게이머와 계약을 체결하고 있는 기업들을 무시하는 처사라 할 수 있다.
1999년부터 프로게임단이 창설되고 기업이 운영하는 게임단이 확대되면서 선수들의 초상권과 성명권은 한국e스포츠협회에 귀속되어 있다. 기업이 선수들과의 계약을 통해 연봉이나 인센티브 등을 지급하고 있는 상황에서 블리자드의 선수와 관련된 요구는 무리하다는 비판이 일고 있다.
블리자드의 요구 사항이 수용된다면 공군을 제외한 11개 프로게임단은 프로게이머를 육성하더라도 블리자드와 또 하나의 계약을 성사해야 한다. 연봉은 기업이 주고 블리자드가 필요할 때면 내줘야 하는 상황에 처한다. 이는 프로게임단을 운영하고 있는 기업에 대한 권리 침해로 해석할 수 있는 부분이다.
>>블리자드의 협상 요구안 가운데 이해되지 않는 부분은 또 있다. 각 기업이 계약을 통해 확보하고 있는 선수들에 대한 권리도 요구한 것으로 확인됐다.
There is another portion of Blizzard's negotiation requests that isn't very understandable. It has been confirmed that Blizzard demanded rights to the players that are on the contracts with the corporations.
>>블리자드가 2007년부터 한국e스포츠협회와의 협상에 내놓은 요구 사항에는 '모든 대회를 통해 프로게이머와 계약할 수 있는 권리를 갖는다'라는 조항이 있는 것으로 알려졌다. 이는 현재 프로게이머와 계약을 체결하고 있는 기업들을 무시하는 처사라 할 수 있다.
Since 2007, Blizzard's negotiation contract contained an article that states that "Blizzard will have the right to form contracts with players through any competitions. This could be read as a term that simply ignoring/demeaning the current corporations that already have contracts with the players
>>1999년부터 프로게임단이 창설되고 기업이 운영하는 게임단이 확대되면서 선수들의 초상권과 성명권은 한국e스포츠협회에 귀속되어 있다. 기업이 선수들과의 계약을 통해 연봉이나 인센티브 등을 지급하고 있는 상황에서 블리자드의 선수와 관련된 요구는 무리하다는 비판이 일고 있다.
Since 1999 when the progaming leagues were created and corporations started sponsoring professional teams, KeSPA held the rights to give or take progaming licenses. There is much criticism that Blizzard's requests regarding the players is "too much" since the corporations pay players salaries and incentives.
>>블리자드의 요구 사항이 수용된다면 공군을 제외한 11개 프로게임단은 프로게이머를 육성하더라도 블리자드와 또 하나의 계약을 성사해야 한다. 연봉은 기업이 주고 블리자드가 필요할 때면 내줘야 하는 상황에 처한다. 이는 프로게임단을 운영하고 있는 기업에 대한 권리 침해로 해석할 수 있는 부분이다
If this term is accepted, then all progaming teams with the exception of Airforce ACE needs to create an additional contract with Blizzard even if they are only nurturing/raising players. Even though the salaries are paid by the Corporations, (This is my interpretation here since it's missing WHAT it is referring to. I'm going to guess that they're referring to players) the players must be "given" to Blizzard when Blizzard needs them. This could be read as a violation of the rights of the corporation that runs the the proleague team.
Edit: Oops, i guess someone translated it already. Should have paid more attention ^^;
On May 05 2010 05:16 Yurebis wrote: I don't think blizzard is dumb enough to make such a blatantly broken contract that no sane sponsor would sign... but if those ain't lies, I'm still not siding with KeSPA, never ever. Blizzard can go broke and "forbid" anyone from ever playing Starcraft 2, it would still be their decision to make since they made the game. Would be pretty dumb (wasted profit potential), but I'd respect it. (IP rights aside)
That puts Blizzard in the right in my book, but opinions will always differ. If they can open up e-sports to the world anywhere near as well as it was opened up to Korea by KeSPA,
you see, I've read a lot of those assertions, but what exactly has KeSPA done, besides licensing (restricting unregistered players from playing) and regulating (restricting certain actions by the part of players and maybe organizers, idk)
if it was nothing but restrictions, how can one open a market by restricting it? Opening a door by putting a lock on it? I thought a market was opened by demand, which is the profit opportunity... but other people seem to think otherwise, and unless I'm misrepresenting what KeSPA does, I'd really like it if someone taught me something here.
On May 05 2010 05:16 Yurebis wrote: I don't think blizzard is dumb enough to make such a blatantly broken contract that no sane sponsor would sign... but if those ain't lies, I'm still not siding with KeSPA, never ever. Blizzard can go broke and "forbid" anyone from ever playing Starcraft 2, it would still be their decision to make since they made the game. Would be pretty dumb (wasted profit potential), but I'd respect it. (IP rights aside)
That puts Blizzard in the right in my book, but opinions will always differ. If they can open up e-sports to the world anywhere near as well as it was opened up to Korea by KeSPA,
you see, I've read a lot of those assertions, but what exactly has KeSPA done, besides licensing (restricting unregistered players from playing) and regulating (restricting certain actions by the part of players and maybe organizers, idk)
if it was nothing but restrictions, how can one open a market by restricting it? Opening a door by putting a lock on it? I thought a market was opened by demand, which is the profit opportunity... but other people seem to think otherwise, and unless I'm misrepresenting what KeSPA does, I'd really like it if someone taught me something here.
Restrictions = fewer players = bigger payrolls for the sought after players. Other than that, not sure. I'm no economics major or whatever would know about it.
On May 05 2010 05:31 Vasoline73 wrote: Anyone who believes Blizzard is actually interested in maintaining a real esports scene is crazy.
Kespa may suck but at least they have experience running the only truely successful esport
Is it crazy to assume Blizzard will try to make money? As long as there's money in eSports, I'd be pretty persuaded to believe such a powerful company would keep it going strong.
And don't go using misinformation like SC:BW being the only "truly successful eSport", etc. What makes Halo and WC3 unsuccessful, exactly?
considering how small the professional esports scene is i think they should keep said profits to themselves to keep themselves afloat. Blizzard already makes money on wow and the upcoming SC2 and D3 why they want MORE is just greed
you see, I've read a lot of those assertions, but what exactly has KeSPA done, besides licensing (restricting unregistered players from playing) and regulating (restricting certain actions by the part of players and maybe organizers, idk)
if it was nothing but restrictions, how can one open a market by restricting it? Opening a door by putting a lock on it? I thought a market was opened by demand, which is the profit opportunity... but other people seem to think otherwise, and unless I'm misrepresenting what KeSPA does, I'd really like it if someone taught me something here.
If there's demand for a more indepth explanation, I'll give one in the future. But you should think of KeSPA like the NBA or the MLB or something like that. There's a lot of transaction costs into making a successful, organized league, and that's why such organizations are needed.
Lets say I start selling, lets say, a new form of football. I have copyright of the football and and I sell it all over the world. The football is the shit in every country for about 4 years but then it start to fade away (sort of like pokémon cards) So I stop supporting and investing money in it. The only exception is one country where this football is THE BOMB. It's on live TV millions of people are watching people play with this ball and this is their bread and butter. They live eat breath this ball.
Now, ten years later and when I've sold million of copies of the football and not giving a fuck what happens really since I got these other "footballs" selling like crazy, I'm releasing Football 2.0 and demand that I have rights over every player in every team. I also want a fee for every dime earned by the TV companies that are airing the teams competing and I also want that people now start paying me if they want to host a tournament or competition using football 2.0.
On May 05 2010 05:31 Vasoline73 wrote: Anyone who believes Blizzard is actually interested in maintaining a real esports scene is crazy.
Kespa may suck but at least they have experience running the only truely successful esport
Is it crazy to assume Blizzard will try to make money? As long as there's money in eSports, I'd be pretty persuaded to believe such a powerful company would keep it going strong.
And don't go using misinformation like SC:BW being the only "truly successful eSport", etc. What makes Halo and WC3 unsuccessful, exactly?
considering how small the professional esports scene is i think they should keep said profits to themselves to keep themselves afloat. Blizzard already makes money on wow and the upcoming SC2 and D3 why they want MORE is just greed
Don't be naive. It's not about greed, it's about how works a company. A company is own by shareholders who invest and want money back for their investment. The shareholders don't give a fuck about what the company does, they just decide who runs the company and the only responsability the managers have is the responsability towards them to make as much money as possible in the shortest amount of time (actually that's called capitalism).
There is no reason wy Blizzard should work differently than General Motors, Total or Mc Donald. Even if you think their products are awesome.
On May 05 2010 03:36 Lokian wrote: We all know, Blizzard is a high-morale type of game company. I don't think Blizzard had any bad intention in their negotiations. Whatever is necessary to expand e-Sports internationally.
I believe this kind of thinking is mostly why people support Blizzard. And I think that it is naive. Blizzard is not some club of programmers who create games for fun. They are professionals and even if they are good guys, they can not run their company in whichever way they like it. They have to make business decisions the same way other big companies do it. That they have this good of an image is mostly due to all the public relations work they do for their fans, but they rarely get judged by their business decisions.
And how do business profit more if not by giving consumers what they want?
On May 05 2010 05:29 Asta wrote: On the other hand is KeSPA, which is a governing body for a sport. As with all other organizations, they will be fighting for their profit, but they are mostly dependent on the success of their sport. They will of course fight against organizations trying to take some of the sports popularity and market that on their own (like GOM). And like all other governing bodies they won't always be popular with the fans because they are mostly working with sponsors and broadcasters. But after all, a strong governing body is usually very important for a sport. Some bad examples include Boxing (4 world titles iirc) and also eSports outside of Korea (everyone trying to stake their claim with their own rules and malicious organizations like the cpl).
Not really necessary then?
On May 05 2010 05:29 Asta wrote: That there even is an argument between Blizzard and KeSPA is only because Blizzard is holding somewhat of a monopoly for popular games in Korea. For example, in football, there are a lot of products that are needed to play, like the ball or shoes or other clothes (I'm sure there are better examples). None of the creators of said products can claim any right to decide how professional football shoot be run. But that's only because they are replaceable. If there were a lot of games that would be as popular as Starcraft, then this whole discussion wouldn't exist.
If Blizzard wants to be an ass and deny everyone the right to broadcast starcraft 2 unless they pay them 100 million dollars, they can do that, but no one is gonna broadcast and starcraft 2 will die, and they will lose profit. Players aren't stuck with one game. Sadly for korea, starcraft progaming seems to be stuck with the joke that KeSPA is.
On May 05 2010 05:29 Asta wrote: What is actually going on is that Blizzard Managers are trying to get as much out of their quasi-monopoly because they realize that control over the sport of Starcraft 2 would not only get them a lot of money in the short run. They'd also strengthen their monopole even more and increase their brand value incredibly for future games.
Yeah, but they can't squish too hard or no profit will be made. They have to respond to the market demand, and do the most efficient job they can to supply enough to make better profits. Progaming isn't particularly that inelastic of a market that they can charge anything and sponsors will have to accept. If they charge too high, sponsors will look to sponsor cheaper venues (like broodwar maybe), simple as that... hardly a monopoly at all w\ a game that hasn't even come out yet...
On May 05 2010 05:50 MaYuu wrote: Lets say I start selling, lets say, a new form of football. I have copyright of the football and and I sell it all over the world. The football is the shit in every country for about 4 years but then it start to fade away (sort of like pokémon cards) So I stop supporting and investing money in it. The only exception is one country where this football is THE BOMB. It's on live TV millions of people are watching people play with this ball and this is their bread and butter. They live eat breath this ball.
Now, ten years later and when I've sold million of copies of the football, I'm releasing Football 2.0 and demand that I have rights over every player in every team. I also want a fee for every dime earned by the TV companies that are airing the teams competing and I also want that people now start paying me if they want to host a tournament or competition using football 2.0.
Sounds fair right?
I'm not a proponent of IP rights but, if you are, then it should be fair to you. Did you not say you created it? If they don't want to follow your rules, then they can go play something else. (Or just ignore you and maybe get incarcerated by their local government ofc) You're at most only denying them their right to play something that wouldn't have existed if not for you, so you're not stealing from them (on an IP perspective)
On May 05 2010 05:31 Vasoline73 wrote: Anyone who believes Blizzard is actually interested in maintaining a real esports scene is crazy.
Kespa may suck but at least they have experience running the only truely successful esport
Is it crazy to assume Blizzard will try to make money? As long as there's money in eSports, I'd be pretty persuaded to believe such a powerful company would keep it going strong.
And don't go using misinformation like SC:BW being the only "truly successful eSport", etc. What makes Halo and WC3 unsuccessful, exactly?
considering how small the professional esports scene is i think they should keep said profits to themselves to keep themselves afloat. Blizzard already makes money on wow and the upcoming SC2 and D3 why they want MORE is just greed
Don't be naive. It's not about greed, it's about how works a company. A company is own by shareholders who invest and want money back for their investment. The shareholders don't give a fuck about what the company does, they just decide who runs the company and the only responsability the managers have is the responsability towards them to make as much money as possible in the shortest amount of time (actually that's called capitalism).
There is no reason wy Blizzard should work differently than General Motors, Total or Mc Donald. Even if you think their products are awesome.
This is correct. Every for profit company's most important goal is improving shareholder wealth. Blizzard is no different
you see, I've read a lot of those assertions, but what exactly has KeSPA done, besides licensing (restricting unregistered players from playing) and regulating (restricting certain actions by the part of players and maybe organizers, idk)
if it was nothing but restrictions, how can one open a market by restricting it? Opening a door by putting a lock on it? I thought a market was opened by demand, which is the profit opportunity... but other people seem to think otherwise, and unless I'm misrepresenting what KeSPA does, I'd really like it if someone taught me something here.
If there's demand for a more indepth explanation, I'll give one in the future. But you should think of KeSPA like the NBA or the MLB or something like that. There's a lot of transaction costs into making a successful, organized league, and that's why such organizations are needed.
Alright, but, government-run too? Like, run it my way, or don't run at all? I still don't quite know if KeSPA is governmentally backed or not... I just assumed it was because of how shitty the quality of it's services are LOL
On May 05 2010 05:31 Vasoline73 wrote: Anyone who believes Blizzard is actually interested in maintaining a real esports scene is crazy.
Kespa may suck but at least they have experience running the only truely successful esport
Is it crazy to assume Blizzard will try to make money? As long as there's money in eSports, I'd be pretty persuaded to believe such a powerful company would keep it going strong.
And don't go using misinformation like SC:BW being the only "truly successful eSport", etc. What makes Halo and WC3 unsuccessful, exactly?
considering how small the professional esports scene is i think they should keep said profits to themselves to keep themselves afloat. Blizzard already makes money on wow and the upcoming SC2 and D3 why they want MORE is just greed
Don't be naive. It's not about greed, it's about how works a company. A company is own by shareholders who invest and want money back for their investment. The shareholders don't give a fuck about what the company does, they just decide who runs the company and the only responsability the managers have is the responsability towards them to make as much money as possible in the shortest amount of time (actually that's called capitalism).
There is no reason wy Blizzard should work differently than General Motors, Total or Mc Donald. Even if you think their products are awesome.
This is correct. Every for profit company's most important goal is improving shareholder wealth. Blizzard is no different
and how can you increase profits if not by increasing the efficiency or quality at which you provide your products and services to consumers?
On May 05 2010 05:50 MaYuu wrote: Lets say I start selling, lets say, a new form of football. I have copyright of the football and and I sell it all over the world. The football is the shit in every country for about 4 years but then it start to fade away (sort of like pokémon cards) So I stop supporting and investing money in it. The only exception is one country where this football is THE BOMB. It's on live TV millions of people are watching people play with this ball and this is their bread and butter. They live eat breath this ball.
Now, ten years later and when I've sold million of copies of the football, I'm releasing Football 2.0 and demand that I have rights over every player in every team. I also want a fee for every dime earned by the TV companies that are airing the teams competing and I also want that people now start paying me if they want to host a tournament or competition using football 2.0.
Sounds fair right?
I'm not a proponent of IP rights but, if you are, then it should be fair to you. Did you not say you created it? If they don't want to follow your rules, then they can go play something else. (Or just ignore you and maybe get incarcerated by their local government ofc) You're at most only denying them their right to play something that wouldn't have existed if not for you, so you're not stealing from them (on an IP perspective)
Thats also known as pure greed. There probably wouldn't even be a football 2.0 if it wasn't for that country. And I wouldn't had made that much money of the ball if it weren't for them. But hey, lets milk some more money even tho it could mean ruining a part of that country's culture.
Alright, but, government-run too? Like, run it my way, or don't run at all? I still don't quite know if KeSPA is governmentally backed or not... I just assumed it was because of how shitty the quality of it's services are LOL
It's not government run. MLB and NBA practices similar practices regarding "run it my way or don't run at all".
On May 05 2010 05:50 MaYuu wrote: Lets say I start selling, lets say, a new form of football. I have copyright of the football and and I sell it all over the world. The football is the shit in every country for about 4 years but then it start to fade away (sort of like pokémon cards) So I stop supporting and investing money in it. The only exception is one country where this football is THE BOMB. It's on live TV millions of people are watching people play with this ball and this is their bread and butter. They live eat breath this ball.
Now, ten years later and when I've sold million of copies of the football and not giving a fuck what happens really since I got these other "footballs" selling like crazy, I'm releasing Football 2.0 and demand that I have rights over every player in every team of both football 1.0 and 2.0. I also want a fee for every dime earned by the TV companies that are airing the teams competing and I also want that people now start paying me if they want to host a tournament or competition using football 2.0 and 1.0.
On May 05 2010 05:50 MaYuu wrote: Lets say I start selling, lets say, a new form of football. I have copyright of the football and and I sell it all over the world. The football is the shit in every country for about 4 years but then it start to fade away (sort of like pokémon cards) So I stop supporting and investing money in it. The only exception is one country where this football is THE BOMB. It's on live TV millions of people are watching people play with this ball and this is their bread and butter. They live eat breath this ball.
Now, ten years later and when I've sold million of copies of the football, I'm releasing Football 2.0 and demand that I have rights over every player in every team. I also want a fee for every dime earned by the TV companies that are airing the teams competing and I also want that people now start paying me if they want to host a tournament or competition using football 2.0.
Sounds fair right?
I'm not a proponent of IP rights but, if you are, then it should be fair to you. Did you not say you created it? If they don't want to follow your rules, then they can go play something else. (Or just ignore you and maybe get incarcerated by their local government ofc) You're at most only denying them their right to play something that wouldn't have existed if not for you, so you're not stealing from them (on an IP perspective)
Thats also known as pure greed. There probably wouldn't even be a football 2.0 if it wasn't for that country. And I wouldn't had made that much money of the ball if it weren't for them. But hey, lets milk some more money even tho it could mean ruining a part of that country's culture.
Did you or did you not create football 2.0? Because if you did, and you believe in IP rights, it wouldnt' be stealing even if you came back a century later from the afterlife and took it away from everyone. You made it. You decide how it's used. Is that fair? On IP rights principles, of course. Again, not a supporter of IP rights, but that's how it goes.
Basically
Are people entitled to your creations because you let them have it for some time? Can intelectual creations be considered property? If you answer no to the first, and yes to the second, then yes, it's 100% right for you to take it away from them.
On May 05 2010 05:50 MaYuu wrote: Lets say I start selling, lets say, a new form of football. I have copyright of the football and and I sell it all over the world. The football is the shit in every country for about 4 years but then it start to fade away (sort of like pokémon cards) So I stop supporting and investing money in it. The only exception is one country where this football is THE BOMB. It's on live TV millions of people are watching people play with this ball and this is their bread and butter. They live eat breath this ball.
Now, ten years later and when I've sold million of copies of the football, I'm releasing Football 2.0 and demand that I have rights over every player in every team. I also want a fee for every dime earned by the TV companies that are airing the teams competing and I also want that people now start paying me if they want to host a tournament or competition using football 2.0.
Sounds fair right?
I'm not a proponent of IP rights but, if you are, then it should be fair to you. Did you not say you created it? If they don't want to follow your rules, then they can go play something else. (Or just ignore you and maybe get incarcerated by their local government ofc) You're at most only denying them their right to play something that wouldn't have existed if not for you, so you're not stealing from them (on an IP perspective)
Thats also known as pure greed. There probably wouldn't even be a football 2.0 if it wasn't for that country. And I wouldn't had made that much money of the ball if it weren't for them. But hey, lets milk some more money even tho it could mean ruining a part of that country's culture.
Did you or did you not create football 2.0? Because if you did, and you believe in IP rights, it wouldnt' be stealing even if you came back a century later from the afterlife and took it away from everyone. You made it. You decide how it's used. Is that fair? On IP rights principles, of course. Again, not a supporter of IP rights, but that's how it goes.
Basically
Are people entitled to your creations because you let them have it for some time? Can intelectual creations be considered property? If you answer no to the first, and yes to the second, then yes, it's 100% right for you to take it away from them.
as stated in the OP, don't talk like you are an international IP lawyer. US laws do not apply universally, and this issue is about whether or not blizzard has a claim on secondary content generated in a foreign country where IP laws differ
Alright, but, government-run too? Like, run it my way, or don't run at all? I still don't quite know if KeSPA is governmentally backed or not... I just assumed it was because of how shitty the quality of it's services are LOL
It's not government run. MLB and NBA practices similar practices regarding "run it my way or don't run at all".
Then those people saying KeSPA had shut down GOM were exaggerating? Ok then. I withdraw all my complaints on KeSPA having a legal monopoly. And I apologize for labeling it as such. And I still side with blizzard because KeSPA is far more spendable. "No Blizzard" certainly constitutes no starcraft Yet "no KeSPA" does not constitute no esports. KeSPA did not create esports. Period.
I don't know anything about intellectual property laws but my guess it that it is a lot less black and white than your football analogy. Especially since this controversy is happening across national borders. Even if Blizzard wanted KeSPA to stop televising Broodwar games, could do actually do aynthing about it? So far from the AO rating it seems like the Korean government has sided with KeSPA.
Edit: It blows my mind that people actually think Blizzard could be good for e-sports, despite them killing LAN and wanting to make all pro replays public. KeSPA, at the very least, has not killed pro broodwar, whereas I could easily see Blizzard completely destroying the SC2 e-sports scene.
On May 05 2010 06:11 iamho wrote: I don't know anything about intellectual property laws but my guess it that it is a lot less black and white than your football analogy. Especially since this controversy is happening across national borders. Even if Blizzard wanted KeSPA to stop televising Broodwar games, could do actually do aynthing about it? So far from the AO rating it seems like the Korean government has sided with KeSPA.
Edit: It blows my mind that people actually think Blizzard could be good for e-sports, despite them killing LAN and wanting to make all pro replays public. KeSPA, at the very least, has not killed pro broodwar, whereas I could easily see Blizzard completely destroying the SC2 e-sports scene.
They'd be destroying that which they created, wouldn't they? Players and fans would be left with the same thing they had before. So no destruction has been committed...
you see, I've read a lot of those assertions, but what exactly has KeSPA done, besides licensing (restricting unregistered players from playing) and regulating (restricting certain actions by the part of players and maybe organizers, idk)
if it was nothing but restrictions, how can one open a market by restricting it? Opening a door by putting a lock on it? I thought a market was opened by demand, which is the profit opportunity... but other people seem to think otherwise, and unless I'm misrepresenting what KeSPA does, I'd really like it if someone taught me something here.
If there's demand for a more indepth explanation, I'll give one in the future. But you should think of KeSPA like the NBA or the MLB or something like that. There's a lot of transaction costs into making a successful, organized league, and that's why such organizations are needed.
Alright, but, government-run too? Like, run it my way, or don't run at all? I still don't quite know if KeSPA is governmentally backed or not... I just assumed it was because of how shitty the quality of it's services are LOL
On May 05 2010 05:31 Vasoline73 wrote: Anyone who believes Blizzard is actually interested in maintaining a real esports scene is crazy.
Kespa may suck but at least they have experience running the only truely successful esport
Is it crazy to assume Blizzard will try to make money? As long as there's money in eSports, I'd be pretty persuaded to believe such a powerful company would keep it going strong.
And don't go using misinformation like SC:BW being the only "truly successful eSport", etc. What makes Halo and WC3 unsuccessful, exactly?
considering how small the professional esports scene is i think they should keep said profits to themselves to keep themselves afloat. Blizzard already makes money on wow and the upcoming SC2 and D3 why they want MORE is just greed
Don't be naive. It's not about greed, it's about how works a company. A company is own by shareholders who invest and want money back for their investment. The shareholders don't give a fuck about what the company does, they just decide who runs the company and the only responsability the managers have is the responsability towards them to make as much money as possible in the shortest amount of time (actually that's called capitalism).
There is no reason wy Blizzard should work differently than General Motors, Total or Mc Donald. Even if you think their products are awesome.
This is correct. Every for profit company's most important goal is improving shareholder wealth. Blizzard is no different
and how can you increase profits if not by increasing the efficiency or quality at which you provide your products and services to consumers?
Shitty services? I wonder what you're gonna call events outside Korea then. T_______T
On May 05 2010 05:31 Vasoline73 wrote: Anyone who believes Blizzard is actually interested in maintaining a real esports scene is crazy.
Kespa may suck but at least they have experience running the only truely successful esport
Is it crazy to assume Blizzard will try to make money? As long as there's money in eSports, I'd be pretty persuaded to believe such a powerful company would keep it going strong.
And don't go using misinformation like SC:BW being the only "truly successful eSport", etc. What makes Halo and WC3 unsuccessful, exactly?
considering how small the professional esports scene is i think they should keep said profits to themselves to keep themselves afloat. Blizzard already makes money on wow and the upcoming SC2 and D3 why they want MORE is just business
On May 05 2010 06:11 iamho wrote: I don't know anything about intellectual property laws but my guess it that it is a lot less black and white than your football analogy. Especially since this controversy is happening across national borders. Even if Blizzard wanted KeSPA to stop televising Broodwar games, could do actually do aynthing about it? So far from the AO rating it seems like the Korean government has sided with KeSPA.
Edit: It blows my mind that people actually think Blizzard could be good for e-sports, despite them killing LAN and wanting to make all pro replays public. KeSPA, at the very least, has not killed pro broodwar, whereas I could easily see Blizzard completely destroying the SC2 e-sports scene.
They'd be destroying that which they created, wouldn't they? Players and fans would be left with the same thing they had before. So no destruction has been committed...
As I said, IP rights are not as black and white as you're portraying them. If I give birth to a baby that does not give me the right to kill it.
On May 05 2010 05:50 MaYuu wrote: Lets say I start selling, lets say, a new form of football. I have copyright of the football and and I sell it all over the world. The football is the shit in every country for about 4 years but then it start to fade away (sort of like pokémon cards) So I stop supporting and investing money in it. The only exception is one country where this football is THE BOMB. It's on live TV millions of people are watching people play with this ball and this is their bread and butter. They live eat breath this ball.
Now, ten years later and when I've sold million of copies of the football and not giving a fuck what happens really since I got these other "footballs" selling like crazy, I'm releasing Football 2.0 and demand that I have rights over every player in every team. I also want a fee for every dime earned by the TV companies that are airing the teams competing and I also want that people now start paying me if they want to host a tournament or competition using football 2.0.
Sounds fair right?
Starcraft is intellectual property. You might be able to get a unique patent on a physical football like that, and unless you sold your rights to others, they wouldn't be allowed to manufacture your football in the first place. People would have to have been paying you all along. Sounds fair that they never did though, right?
If Blizzard wants to be an ass and deny everyone the right to broadcast starcraft 2 unless they pay them 100 million dollars, they can do that, but no one is gonna broadcast and starcraft 2 will die, and they will lose profit.
Correction: Blizzard can kill off all broadcasters and install their own international broadcaster, or do it themselves or their parent company. I doubt SC2 will die because of that.
On May 05 2010 05:50 MaYuu wrote: Lets say I start selling, lets say, a new form of football. I have copyright of the football and and I sell it all over the world. The football is the shit in every country for about 4 years but then it start to fade away (sort of like pokémon cards) So I stop supporting and investing money in it. The only exception is one country where this football is THE BOMB. It's on live TV millions of people are watching people play with this ball and this is their bread and butter. They live eat breath this ball.
Now, ten years later and when I've sold million of copies of the football, I'm releasing Football 2.0 and demand that I have rights over every player in every team. I also want a fee for every dime earned by the TV companies that are airing the teams competing and I also want that people now start paying me if they want to host a tournament or competition using football 2.0.
Sounds fair right?
I'm not a proponent of IP rights but, if you are, then it should be fair to you. Did you not say you created it? If they don't want to follow your rules, then they can go play something else. (Or just ignore you and maybe get incarcerated by their local government ofc) You're at most only denying them their right to play something that wouldn't have existed if not for you, so you're not stealing from them (on an IP perspective)
Thats also known as pure greed. There probably wouldn't even be a football 2.0 if it wasn't for that country. And I wouldn't had made that much money of the ball if it weren't for them. But hey, lets milk some more money even tho it could mean ruining a part of that country's culture.
What is the point of your anology?
I think that basically KeSPA is outdated, and perhaps un-needed. Starcaft has never "faded away" to the level that I believe that your analogy states- the fact that TeamLiquid.net is the largest Starcraft site in the world, not just outside of Korea supports this. I'm sure that KeSPA facilitated the growth of E-sports in it's early days by providing managment to an untested concept, but Blizzards doesn't really owe them shit. Now that Esports is big, and as a company there is no reason that they shouldn't cut out the middle man all together and find a new way of managing Esports.
The difference between Capatalism and Socialism is very evident in your post, plain and simple KeSPA hasn't evolved in a way to make it a legitimate part Esports in today's (tomorrow's) maket. This is Capatilism, so some other company that can adjust to changing markets will evolve- and they will be in a position to make a ton of change. This isn't Socialism, where an archaic company will be kept to "preserve culture" just because. This isn't some happy fairieland where everyone jaunts out in the field to play nicely and protect eachother against the big bad enemy. Blizzard isn't being greedy persay, they are just doing what every other successful company has ever done- make a profit.
In my opinion people that think this will kill Esports are being pretty blind. Some other company will fill the void left by KeSPA, one that will do a better job. All the players, map makers, casters, obs, ect. will be managed by a different body and Blizzard. Blizzard has every right to stick it to KeSPA, and really there isn't any reason why they shouldn't.
Thats also known as pure greed. There probably wouldn't even be a football 2.0 if it wasn't for that country. And I wouldn't had made that much money of the ball if it weren't for them. But hey, lets milk some more money even tho it could mean ruining a part of that country's culture.
There is no such thing as pure greed in business, just good business!
I'm not trying to prove whats right and wrong by law. I just think that what Blizzard is doing is really really shit for us die hard starcraft fans. Why you might ask and the simple reason is cause Blizzard is a game creator, not company who runs tournaments and has pro-houses. NBA didn't create basketball did they?
On May 05 2010 06:41 MaYuu wrote: I'm not trying to prove whats right and wrong by law. I just think that what Blizzard is doing is really really shit for us die hard starcraft fans. Why you might ask and the simple reason is cause Blizzard is a game creator, not company who runs tournaments and has pro-houses. NBA didn't create basketball did they?
No, a Canadian did
It's hard to believe that the progammers will just start to run across the country lawlessly raping and pillaging if KeSPA loses Blizzard games. KeSPA will run a Starcraft rip-off and someone else who knows what they are doing, and are willing to play by Blizzard's rules will come along and inhabit that corner of the market. There is still a whole lot of money out there for any company that is willing to do so. I'm assuming that if Korea is moderetly successful (as it should be), then Blizzard will look at setting up similar operations in other countries.
you guys need to stop with the fucking sports analogies, there is no IP rights to sports because they PREDATE IP laws. For fucks sake, using bad analogies is one thing, but using them repeatedly in the wrong context is totally just stupid.
I never followed the Korean pro scene so I don't really care about how good or bad KESPA is.
However, wouldn't SC, being software, work the same way Microsoft requires companies to pay a yearly license to use their products?
I also don't understand why everyone thinks KESPA must survive for Esports/SC2 to remain viable. Who's to say a new governing board won't do an even better job than KESPA with Blizzard's full support?
Why are the teams owned by KesPA? And why can't Blizzard host tournaments?
I don't know about the NBA or the NFL for that matter, but how does that work when another organization wants to host sports leagues or tournaments?
Would the teams be penalized for playing in other tournaments hosted by another organization?
It's hard to make analogies for this kind of situation because 1, we're in a different country, 2, we're talking about computer games.
Blizzard has the property right of the game and KeSPA has the property right of the teams.
I do believe that the creator should get some benefits thought. I mean, people are making money off their own game, and its become a country-wide corporation. When it gets this big, the creator should get recognized rather than being blocked from the scene.
And to everyone that thinks Blizzard is just a small company, siezing every opportunity to make lots of money...
Well, you're right about Blizzard being a gaming company, but really. They've been working on Starcraft 2 for how long? D3? This company makes good games. And they're not afraid to spend 10 years if it means making a good game. I don't know why people started thinking that Blizzard is just a company that goes by textbook logic. This sets Blizzard away from most others.
I can see why KeSPA responded compulsively and everyone believing them, but really, if we check out what has happened so far, its Blizzard being blocked from the pro-gaming scene and KeSPA seizing full control in eSports.
Either KeSPA change their attitude toward property rights or teams should go back to being individually owned.
If KeSPA shares their property rights, then it would be the best for e-Sports. With their little plan to block other organization from the scene makes competitive starcraft a little skeptical. We all saw how gomTV was taken down, who knows how true these competitions are if they're able to control the players like that. For all we know, these matches could be set up to produce entertainment rather than competition. For KeSPA to share the teams, this would all be resolved.
On May 05 2010 06:56 Adila wrote: I never followed the Korean pro scene so I don't really care about how good or bad KESPA is.
However, wouldn't SC, being software, work the same way Microsoft requires companies to pay a yearly license to use their products?
I also don't understand why everyone thinks KESPA must survive for Esports/SC2 to remain viable. Who's to say a new governing board won't do an even better job than KESPA with Blizzard's full support?
I'm just gonna repost this and let you read it.
"Blizzard already has enough money, and it's never, NEVER a good idea to allow anyone invested in the game or a team to handle organizing or broadcasting a sport. If we allow Blizzard to organize they won't pick the most entertaining players, they'll pick the ones they can convince to push their product, and the broadcasts will be swamped with commercials for their games. You NEED a neutral third party to handle organizing and broadcasting the tournaments, and kespa fits. This is why the MLB or NFL don't have their own channels, we get coverage from a third party like ESPN instead who put entertainment (i.e. ratings) before commercialism.
If it were still the 90s I would totally trust Blizz with doing whatever they want, they could do no wrong. But after Burning Crusade... I'm skeptical SC2 won't gut all my favorite characters for not appealing to every last one of the potential 10 gazillion "consumers" and screw over the balancing because the noobs didn't want to bother with the early game and just want to play fastest and send BCs and Carriers at each other. "
[spoiler]On May 05 2010 06:56 Adila wrote: I never followed the Korean pro scene so I don't really care about how good or bad KESPA is.
However, wouldn't SC, being software, work the same way Microsoft requires companies to pay a yearly license to use their products?
I also don't understand why everyone thinks KESPA must survive for Esports/SC2 to remain viable. Who's to say a new governing board won't do an even better job than KESPA with Blizzard's full support?
I'm just gonna repost this and let you read it.
"Blizzard already has enough money, and it's never, NEVER a good idea to allow anyone invested in the game or a team to handle organizing or broadcasting a sport. If we allow Blizzard to organize they won't pick the most entertaining players, they'll pick the ones they can convince to push their product, and the broadcasts will be swamped with commercials for their games. You NEED a neutral third party to handle organizing and broadcasting the tournaments, and kespa fits. This is why the MLB or NFL don't have their own channels, we get coverage from a third party like ESPN instead who put entertainment (i.e. ratings) before commercialism.
If it were still the 90s I would totally trust Blizz with doing whatever they want, they could do no wrong. But after Burning Crusade... I'm skeptical SC2 won't gut all my favorite characters for not appealing to every last one of the potential 10 gazillion "consumers" and screw over the balancing because the noobs didn't want to bother with the early game and just want to play fastest and send BCs and Carriers at each other. "
ESPN, ABC, etc. still pays royalties to the NBA, MLB, NFL, etc. to broadcast the sport. I know the NBA and NFL have their own channels on cable. Not sure about MLB.
Also, the broadcasters also cherry-pick games that they believe will boost their ratings. They also boost stars who may not be the best, but are flashy. I also see tons of commercials during breaks in the game advertising MLB, NFL, NBA, etc. related products/issues. Therefore, I believe that your comparison is extremely weak about needing a third party when reality shows that it's not that much different.
Well as far as I know the Korean government backs Kespa and there is no f**king chance that a game company can "win" against a government. No government will want a foreign company to control every aspect of its national sport, so Blizz should know its position and be reasonable : just ask for money and don't ask for control, or else nothing good will come from this.
On May 05 2010 07:29 kmdarkmaster wrote: Well as far as I know the Korean government backs Kespa
Meh I don't know if that's true, it makes a huge difference for me whether kespa got where it's at by work or by mandate, but few seem to care about that little detail to 100% confirm or deny... Nothing on the english website. I guess it would be fair to assume it's not (as much as I'd like to think it is, then proceed to bitch about it) but we'll never know until someone knowledgeable tells us
On May 05 2010 07:29 kmdarkmaster wrote: Well as far as I know the Korean government backs Kespa and there is no f**king chance that a game company can "win" against a government. No government will want a foreign company to control every aspect of its national sport, so Blizz should know its position and be reasonable : just ask for money and don't ask for control, or else nothing good will come from this.
Please don't make things up, you'll start rumors. The South Korean government does not back KeSPA in any substantial manner and the South Korean national sport is Tae Kwon Do.
Because I've been assuming kespa is government backed all along, I'm actually pretty shocked to think that it ain't... that the sponsors put up with kespa when they could have simply ditched it and hired another agency to do the licensing and administration Maybe KeSPA is not that baaad after all then. They at least do a good enough job to not be dumped.
Whats stopping blizzard from controlling teams and players in USA and Europe? What if every tournament had to pay a fee to blizz.
Is that gonna happen or are these rules just for Korea which doesnt make sense.. When day9 has 10000 viewers watching starcraft livestream is making money trough their ads.. Are they gonna demand money from livestream or casters for broadcasts? How is it different in Korea other than its a bigger cow so more milk for them.. Blizz sucks ass..
Man.. it would be funny if blizz treated everybody the same and demanded money from streamers and tournament organizers here. I bet people would still support them and say its their game they can charge livestreamers..
Not any different.. HDH got a sponsor that invested in the tournament and now they are getting some big exposure..656025 views in their thread alone with only first phase done.. And who knows how many million more on youtube.. And they are making profit out of starcraft.. Its all fine for your ass if only Korea is affected but it could spread very fast if it becomes more popular here..
Has anyone ever read about how hard it is to make deals with the koreans? Koreans are hard to negotiate with. I wouldn't doubt blizzard can be stubborn too, but don't just assume blizzard are bad. GOMTV vs Kespa should be a good example of real evidence.
Since all of the KESPA following teams were not allowed to participate in gom.
hey guys, i've actually translated some IP documents from English to Chinese previously at work and based on what i've seen what blizzard is asking for is rather "normal" for this type of business.
that being said, most of such agreements proposed by the vendor (ie blizzard) are EXTREMELY harsh. As a sub-licensee (ie KeSPA), you almost feel like you are getting strip searched and groped. so while it is the norm in north america, it is still very one-sided and disrespectful to your business partner. if you want to know how disgusting some of these agreements sound, just look at some of Microsoft EULA's.
that being said, i think blizz got their business model wrong. frankly, i do not believe KeSPA want to see themselves as subsidiary of blizzard and i do not believe blizz has IP rights over this matter. i find it perfectly normal for KeSPA or MBC or OGN to profit from broadcasting games and running tourneys without paying one dime to blizz.
think about it friends, if blizz has IP rights over replays and broadcasts, what is going to happen to the fan community? does our TSL pay royalties? does every time you share your replay violate blizz IP rights? blizz is simply absurd on their demands
On May 05 2010 08:28 dybydx wrote: hey guys, i've actually translated some IP documents from English to Chinese previously at work and based on what i've seen what blizzard is asking for is rather "normal" for this type of business.
that being said, most of such agreements proposed by the vendor (ie blizzard) are EXTREMELY harsh. As a sub-licensee (ie KeSPA), you almost feel like you are getting strip searched and groped. so while it is the norm in north america, it is still very one-sided and disrespectful to your business partner. if you want to know how disgusting some of these agreements sound, just look at some of Microsoft EULA's.
that being said, i think blizz got their business model wrong. frankly, i do not believe KeSPA want to see themselves as subsidiary of blizzard and i do not believe blizz has IP rights over this matter. i find it perfectly normal for KeSPA or MBC or OGN to profit from broadcasting games and running tourneys without paying one dime to blizz.
think about it friends, if blizz has IP rights over replays and broadcasts, what is going to happen to the fan community? does our TSL pay royalties? does every time you share your replay violate blizz IP rights? blizz is simply absurd on their demands
And not only that but all players that are top 10 in pro ladder must sign a contract that blizz owns and controls them and whatever was said in that last article..
Well Blizzard is already in a partnership with mlg for wow. Here's the article. MLG has sponsors like red bull, doritos, dr. pepper,HP and stride. They are also partnered with ESPN for broadcasting. So if MLG can come to an agreement with Blizzard maybe they're not so unreasonable and wanting to run e-sports as everyone says. MLG also has theyre own ranked playlist on xbox live for halo3, called MLG. Funny they seem to know how to work with the game creators of halo3 Bungie and Microsoft. Work with Blizzard but Kespa can't. And yes WOW is just retarded as an esport, but it says something that they were willing to try it out.
I support KeSPA, I trust them more to keep the proscene continuing for years than Blizzard tbh. Watching WoW Arena rise up and quickly go down the toilet illustrated it perfectly for me.
think about it friends, if blizz has IP rights over replays and broadcasts, what is going to happen to the fan community? does our TSL pay royalties? does every time you share your replay violate blizz IP rights? blizz is simply absurd on their demands
I don't think you've actually thought that analogy through properly...
Via your analogy:
Blizz = Blizz Kespa = TL SKT, Samsung, Korean Air etc etc = Pokerstrategy.com OSL = TSL
The glaring differences?
TL has zero control over player contracts etc. TL does not, to our knowledge, make profit for what it does; it is run purely from the hard work, dedication and sacrifice of the community. Mods are not paid wages for this. Ken, HB etc
TL generates buzz, hype, interest etc for Blizzard without raking in large sums of money for itself/stakeholders.
Now consider what Kespa does, the scale on which they do it, and why they do it... and you will see why Blizzard has a vested interest in: a) securing a portion of the revenue that their hard work allows for b) protecting the IP itself from poor management, scandal et al
I really don't understand any sentiment that this exercising of rights is a threat to fan communities... The rights of national sporting leagues to exercise control over players associations and broadcasting corporations do not infringe upon local, suburban sporting leagues, fan clubs etc.
Absurd demands from Blizzard imo. I agree that KeSPA should inform Blizzard of everything they do broadcasting related and maybe pay a fee to legally broadcast the game on television, etc. But asking to see all their finances and control over the pro players contracts ??? What the hell Blizzard.
I only want what's best for e-sports and KeSPA look like the good guys in this battle.
I hope they can find a way to sort things through but I highly doubt that will ever happen
That being side, MLG is a GREAT organization that really cares about their players, sponsors, etc. If a league could achieve mainstream success similar to what's seen in Korea, MLG's is definitely on the forefront !
I don't know why people seem to belittle kespa's role in getting sponsors and ensuring everything runs, if not reasonably well. I mean come on, freaking Korean Air is sponsoring the OSL. Can you see United or American Airlines ever sponsoring a starcraft tournament?
On May 05 2010 09:52 Taku wrote: I don't know why people seem to belittle kespa's role in getting sponsors and ensuring everything runs, if not reasonably well. I mean come on, freaking Korean Air is sponsoring the OSL. Can you see United or American Airlines ever sponsoring a starcraft tournament?
This is short sighted, just like many MAJOR corporations in america sponsor sports teams, the simple fact is that eSports hasn't caught on that big yet, but we do already have teams sponsors by the likes of Subway. So it's not beyond the american market, the only thing the american market is lacking is marketing, and if blizzard throws its backing behind it, it can totally survive.
On May 05 2010 09:52 Taku wrote: I don't know why people seem to belittle kespa's role in getting sponsors and ensuring everything runs, if not reasonably well. I mean come on, freaking Korean Air is sponsoring the OSL. Can you see United or American Airlines ever sponsoring a starcraft tournament?
This is short sighted, just like many MAJOR corporations in america sponsor sports teams, the simple fact is that eSports hasn't caught on that big yet, but we do already have teams sponsors by the likes of Subway. So it's not beyond the american market, the only thing the american market is lacking is marketing, and if blizzard throws its backing behind it, it can totally survive.
not sure about that last statement bro you can't throw around assumptions like that to back your argument. WoW is probably having one of the biggest successes any game has ever had in terms of exposure, but that doesn't necessarily equate mass inception of progamers and teams. There are other factors that made starcraft work in Korea, you can't just condense every reason why it hasn't worked in NA to 'lack of exposure.'
KeSPA is important not because of their position as a governing body, but rather because they represent the unified corporate interest of all of the companies that make eSports possible in Korea. While removing KeSPA may not have a direct impact on SC2's viability as an eSport elsewhere in the world, it would kill it in Korea, which would certainly have an indirect impact on the global scene. The truth is that within Korea, this is not a fight Blizzard can win as neither the law nor political interests are on their side. KeSPA could just broadcast as they please and there would be no realistic way for Blizzard to stop them as they have no sway at all in Korea. The corporations in KeSPA have an absurd amount of influence and they could easily shut down any attempt by Blizzard to create a competitive league in the country if they chose to as well. If KeSPA was divided, this might be a different story, but that's not the case at the moment...
Not to make a simple statement without reading any posts, because I've read them.
This whole thing makes me sick to my stomach. I've stopped watching SC due to match throwing + gag order on everyone. This does not help at all. Watching what used to be my favorite company (now it's part Activision, a big part) deteriorate to this really saddens me. I understand they're a business, but with how much they make from WoW alone, this is just.... disgusting.
i'm 38 years old i was playing Starcraft Broodwar long time ago in Europe noone is playing it and noone cares about it anymore.
What is going on in Korea is KeSPAS development and NOT Blizzards.
Blizzard can creat their own legaue if they want and to try to make it succeffull if they can then may drow sponsors and to start getting their money if this what they want something that all these years NEVER did.
I really hope Blizzard does not become the head of e-sports. I don't care if its Kespa or some other organization, just not Blizzard. I feel there are simply too many conflicts of interests between Blizzard the game company and Blizzard the e-sports organizer. I don't care about who gets how much money where, just that both BW and SC2 get their proper treatment. As SC2 nears its release, a huge question remains: what will happen to Brood War? Will sponsors put their money into a newer, shinier, but yet untested game or will they stick with Brood War, which has consistently brought them advertising over the last years. The fact is, BW is in direct competition with SC2. And if Blizzard were in charge, they would have huge incentive to axe BW in order to promote their new game. In the far future, will the release of Warcraft 4 or SC3 affect Blizzard's relationship SC2 in the same way? Perhaps it is a bit far fetched. Blizzard has good history of taking care of their fans. However, the lack of LAN and the (lack of) functionality which Bnet 2.0 gives has not inspired confidence within me and I would feel much more at ease if some company independent of Blizzard ran e-sports.
Blizzard's survival doesn't depend on the growth or survival of eSports. KeSPA's survival does simply because their business IS eSports. If for no other reason than that, I'd be more inclined to trust KeSPA and similar 3rd party organizations over Blizzard in terms of organizing and managing the leagues. Blizzard should stick to making the games and let the community create and manage the leagues for the games because the community will ultimately stick by the game longer than the game developer, which will be looking more toward promoting its newer projects rather than spending resources supporting older ones.
Yeah I'd rather wait for more information about this whole thing before speculating. Both Kespa and Blizzard seem to have good points in their respective threads and we know too little about this to take a strong standpoint.
I hope that in the end, this doesn't make things worse for the starcraft-fans.
It seems like the biggest issue here is control, not money. KeSPA recognizes the idea of paying money to Blizzard for royalties, but they don't like the idea of giving Blizzard complete control and oversight over everything they do. It means they'd have to request a review for approval on everything, adding a ridiculously crippling bureaucracy on to Starcraft e-sports.
On May 05 2010 06:56 Adila wrote: I never followed the Korean pro scene so I don't really care about how good or bad KESPA is.
However, wouldn't SC, being software, work the same way Microsoft requires companies to pay a yearly license to use their products?
I also don't understand why everyone thinks KESPA must survive for Esports/SC2 to remain viable. Who's to say a new governing board won't do an even better job than KESPA with Blizzard's full support?
I'm just gonna repost this and let you read it.
"Blizzard already has enough money, and it's never, NEVER a good idea to allow anyone invested in the game or a team to handle organizing or broadcasting a sport. If we allow Blizzard to organize they won't pick the most entertaining players, they'll pick the ones they can convince to push their product, and the broadcasts will be swamped with commercials for their games. You NEED a neutral third party to handle organizing and broadcasting the tournaments, and kespa fits. This is why the MLB or NFL don't have their own channels, we get coverage from a third party like ESPN instead who put entertainment (i.e. ratings) before commercialism.
If it were still the 90s I would totally trust Blizz with doing whatever they want, they could do no wrong. But after Burning Crusade... I'm skeptical SC2 won't gut all my favorite characters for not appealing to every last one of the potential 10 gazillion "consumers" and screw over the balancing because the noobs didn't want to bother with the early game and just want to play fastest and send BCs and Carriers at each other. "
1. No company has enough money.
2. KeSPA isn't a neutral party.
3. Blizzard has a better track record in not screwing over fans of their games than KeSPA has.
The way I see it KeSPA is saying "Yeah okay, sounds fair. We'll pay royalties since you made the game after all. BUT we'll do it our way. It works better for us, don't boss us around."
Blizzard sees Kespa wants to use Starcraft, Blizzard's "child" as they please. While the goal of any company is to make money I have no doubts that the guys at Blizzard have a strong emotional attachment to what they've created. It's painfully obvious if you listen to a lot of Blizzcasts and interviews.
The thought of KeSPA doing whatever they please with Starcraft is no doubt very unpleasant to Blizzard. "We worked on this game for so long and now we are to hand the rights to these hooligans? No way in hell."
Just look at how Battle.net 2.0 requests your real name to make you take consequences for your actions and you see how Blizzard wants to have a high level of control.
I'm not saying either side is wrong or right (can't be that simple if companies had negotiations, right?), but I trust Blizzard more personally, even if it's a bit unsettling when a company wants so much control.
On May 05 2010 06:56 Adila wrote: I never followed the Korean pro scene so I don't really care about how good or bad KESPA is.
However, wouldn't SC, being software, work the same way Microsoft requires companies to pay a yearly license to use their products?
I also don't understand why everyone thinks KESPA must survive for Esports/SC2 to remain viable. Who's to say a new governing board won't do an even better job than KESPA with Blizzard's full support?
I'm just gonna repost this and let you read it.
"Blizzard already has enough money, and it's never, NEVER a good idea to allow anyone invested in the game or a team to handle organizing or broadcasting a sport. If we allow Blizzard to organize they won't pick the most entertaining players, they'll pick the ones they can convince to push their product, and the broadcasts will be swamped with commercials for their games. You NEED a neutral third party to handle organizing and broadcasting the tournaments, and kespa fits. This is why the MLB or NFL don't have their own channels, we get coverage from a third party like ESPN instead who put entertainment (i.e. ratings) before commercialism.
If it were still the 90s I would totally trust Blizz with doing whatever they want, they could do no wrong. But after Burning Crusade... I'm skeptical SC2 won't gut all my favorite characters for not appealing to every last one of the potential 10 gazillion "consumers" and screw over the balancing because the noobs didn't want to bother with the early game and just want to play fastest and send BCs and Carriers at each other. "
1. No company has enough money.
2. KeSPA isn't a neutral party.
3. Blizzard has a better track record in not screwing over fans of their games than KeSPA has.
You should research about how Blizzard managed WoW tournaments. (And they care a lot more about WoW than SC2)
On May 05 2010 06:56 Adila wrote: I never followed the Korean pro scene so I don't really care about how good or bad KESPA is.
However, wouldn't SC, being software, work the same way Microsoft requires companies to pay a yearly license to use their products?
I also don't understand why everyone thinks KESPA must survive for Esports/SC2 to remain viable. Who's to say a new governing board won't do an even better job than KESPA with Blizzard's full support?
I'm just gonna repost this and let you read it.
"Blizzard already has enough money, and it's never, NEVER a good idea to allow anyone invested in the game or a team to handle organizing or broadcasting a sport. If we allow Blizzard to organize they won't pick the most entertaining players, they'll pick the ones they can convince to push their product, and the broadcasts will be swamped with commercials for their games. You NEED a neutral third party to handle organizing and broadcasting the tournaments, and kespa fits. This is why the MLB or NFL don't have their own channels, we get coverage from a third party like ESPN instead who put entertainment (i.e. ratings) before commercialism.
If it were still the 90s I would totally trust Blizz with doing whatever they want, they could do no wrong. But after Burning Crusade... I'm skeptical SC2 won't gut all my favorite characters for not appealing to every last one of the potential 10 gazillion "consumers" and screw over the balancing because the noobs didn't want to bother with the early game and just want to play fastest and send BCs and Carriers at each other. "
1. No company has enough money.
2. KeSPA isn't a neutral party.
3. Blizzard has a better track record in not screwing over fans of their games than KeSPA has.
Blizzard is well known for screwing die-hard fans over. All they care about is casual gamers, and that is those who buy the game play it until the next big title comes out (blizz or not). They don't get money for how much we play, they get their money once they sold a copy.
On May 05 2010 18:14 MaYuu wrote: Blizzard is well known for screwing die-hard fans over. All they care about is casual gamers, and that is those who buy the game play it until the next big title comes out (blizz or not).
Care to elaborate? Unless this is something WoW specific.
I'm kinda on the fence about this, while Blizzard seems to have some really strange requests, I can understand that they don't want "ggg? Auto loss!" Kespa to use their game and do what they want with it.
On May 05 2010 18:14 MaYuu wrote: Blizzard is well known for screwing die-hard fans over. All they care about is casual gamers, and that is those who buy the game play it until the next big title comes out (blizz or not).
Care to elaborate? Unless this is something WoW specific.
I'm kinda on the fence about this, while Blizzard seems to have some really strange requests, I can understand that they don't want "ggg? Auto loss!" Kespa to use their game and do what they want with it.
Wow-arena is a good example, Blizzard killing of the "e-sports" aspect of it with allowing only them to arrange tournaments. (Dreamhack has a arena relam for when that LAN takes place that is twice a year) All the Wow coverage by major sites got severely cut back after MLG and other gaming corporations when they just could not afford the money blizzard wanted from them.
Another thing is with Wc3 where the same old maps were played OVER and OVER again and Blizzard did nothing to help that. The community screamed for a balance patch to happen but it never did. Undead remained weak in pro-gaming scene.
Eh, I'm way too clueless about what laws are involved here and the powerplay between these companies. What I know is this:
Both Kespa and Blizzard are engaged in this standoff because of money, that's it. Neither Blizzard nor Kespa represent some idealistic vision (get the impression a lot of people think of Blizzard as pure and virtuous...), they're just big companies fighting over control of a market. I have no clue who will win or what the outcome will be, nor do I really know what's more "fair" (both sides can make a good case) but honestly I'm not too worried. There IS a market for SC and hopefully for SC2 soon as well, and 'market's abhor a vacuum' so at the end of the day it's not like everything will collapse.
I guess at worst things will be shifted around a bit. Maybe I'm being naive here, but that's what I reckon...
The reason people think that a true esports scene won't flourish without KeSPA is becase KeSPA = corporate sponsors, broadcasting companies, regulatory body, etc.
Can you imagine a lively esport scene without 11 progaming teams, OGN & MBC and a governing body? You're talking about some mysterious company replacing KeSPA, but exactly what company do you think would be able to replace the corporate sponsors behind the progaming teams, the broadcasting TV stations and at the same time regulate the whole sport?
The companies who are already involved with the StarCraft esports scene, members of KeSPA for the most part, are some of the biggest corporations in Korea. It's not exactly easy to replace them.
On May 05 2010 07:03 Lokian wrote: Why are the teams owned by KesPA? And why can't Blizzard host tournaments?
LOL, why are the teams owned by KeSPA? Maybe because KeSPA members are paying all their expenses and basically created/bought them? T__________________________T
Blizzard can host the tournaments, but I'll watch any KeSPA run event over something as crappy as BlizzCon anytime. T____T
I can see why KeSPA responded compulsively and everyone believing them, but really, if we check out what has happened so far, its Blizzard being blocked from the pro-gaming scene and KeSPA seizing full control in eSports.
More like it was a direct response to Blizzard removing LAN among other things. ;;
Either KeSPA change their attitude toward property rights or teams should go back to being individually owned.
They ARE individually owned... T_____T Sigh...
If KeSPA shares their property rights, then it would be the best for e-Sports. With their little plan to block other organization from the scene makes competitive starcraft a little skeptical. We all saw how gomTV was taken down, who knows how true these competitions are if they're able to control the players like that. For all we know, these matches could be set up to produce entertainment rather than competition. For KeSPA to share the teams, this would all be resolved.
GOMTV going down was collateral damage. LOL, KeSPA shouls share the teams? With whom? Are you nuts? The rightful owners (SKT, KT, WeMade, MBC, etc. - members of KeSPA) should share the teams with Blizzard for nothing? LOL
"Despite this, the association has attempted to preserve the fans’ rights as spectators by recognizing Blizzard’s copyright from the very beginning of the negotiations. The association promised Blizzard the continued marketing and promotional support of their products through the use of all our resources including players, teams and broadcasting, and constant investment including the obtainment of sponsorships"
What happend in the last season of GOM Averatec-Intel Classic. Didn't kespa deprive the blizzard sponsored tournament of players in the league?
"Blizzard made other unreasonable requests beyond the rights of the copyright holder, such as royalties and sub-licensing fees on sponsorships and broadcasting fees, the right to audit KeSPA’s finances, as well as ownership of secondary content created through our unique resources in the teams, players, and broadcasting expertise."
Blizzard has every right to do this, as for as collecting royalties and sub-licensing fees on sponsorships and broadcasting. Its their game they've created, their entitled to that. To degrade them of those rights is crooked and wrong.
imo kespa should get their heads cleared and stop being as greedy as usual.
On May 05 2010 19:24 Lyrok wrote: Care to elaborate? Unless this is something WoW specific.
Well WoW is the biggest current example since it's Blizzard's major cash cow. For other examples, look at SC, D2, and WC3. All of them lack serious ladders and antihacks which ultimately forced 3rd parties to do the job Blizzard should have been doing if they actually cared about maintaining a competitive environment for serious gamers. Blizzard has no track record of successfully handling a competitive game and they've historically flaked on older games once they sold their copies and released a new game. I don't understand why people are suddenly inclined to trust them now... They've done nothing to deserve such confidence from the community. They make wonderful games. They just suck at managing them...
1. On KeSPA’s website GOMTV listed as a standard Media:
f. e-Sports Related Media
- Cable TV : Ongamenet, MBC Game - Internet TV : Gom TV, Pandora TV - Internet Portals : Naver, Daum - IP TV : Hana TV - Ground Waves, Satellite based DMB real-time broadcast - e-Sports Reporters : 23 Media including Daily news, Sports daily, Free news, Game Magazines, Online media
2. GOMTV is broadcasting Proleague matches (see TL thread) while broadcasting rights belong to KeSPA—IEG.
3. The reason for termination of the GOMTV Classic was the decision of three other teams (KT, STX, and ACE) did not take part in it. Four teams are not allowed their players to participate more in the previous season (SKT, hite, HERO, and eSTRO). “Gom cannot risk themselves with 5 teams.” source
KeSPA took a 'dead' game (i was playing it 20 years ago) and also managed to take care right some really harismatic players and created something from nothing!!? Well BRAVO.
What is happening in korea It's keSPAS development not Blizzards.
SC2? i dont like it 2 many grafics and you miss the action of the gameplay i hope Flash and the others will stay in brood war but in the end it their choise.
On May 06 2010 00:46 Gtks wrote: KeSPA took a 'dead' game (i was playing it 20 years ago) and also managed to take care right some really harismatic players and created something from nothing!!? Well BRAVO.
What is happening in korea It's keSPAS development not Blizzards.
SC2? i dont like it 2 many grafics and you miss the action of the gameplay i hope Flash and the others will stay in brood war but in the end it their choise.
Way to not read the thread or to understand a single thing that's been going on in Korea.
I think this thread is more about people protecting Esports as a korean sport, rather than the creators of the game themselves. So blizzard goes on to create a game that has lasting value, but you guys are so caught up in your love for the current MBC/OGN support for the game that you guys are willing to give power to KESPA? If I made a game and people were using MY game, to make profits. I would definitely want control/ a piece of the chip for the money they were making off MY game.
Greedy is a loaded word, companies are in it to make profit (hands down). Whether it's KESPA or Blizzard, they both are in it to make some money, otherwise they would cease to exist.
On May 06 2010 01:18 Zeridian wrote: I think this thread is more about people protecting Esports as a korean sport, rather than the creators of the game themselves. So blizzard goes on to create a game that has lasting value, but you guys are so caught up in your love for the current MBC/OGN support for the game that you guys are willing to give power to KESPA? If I made a game and people were using MY game, to make profits. I would definitely want control/ a piece of the chip for the money they were making off MY game.
Greedy is a loaded word, companies are in it to make profit (hands down). Whether it's KESPA or Blizzard, they both are in it to make some money, otherwise they would cease to exist.
Read all the articles... KeSPA wanted to share. It's just that Blizzard wanted to take EVERYTHING. ;;
There's a huge difference between getting a piece of the profit and demanding that you have complete control and ownership of anything anyone ever does with your creation. If a company designed a bicycle, they have absolutely no right to claim ownership of every stunt performance ever filmed using that bicycle. Blizzard gets their share from the sale of the game. What people then create with the game or within it belongs to the individual creators. If Blizzard wants to control everything maybe they should invest their own money building studios, securing tv broadcasting licenses, and everything else that the corporations of KeSPA took on the risk to invest. Blizzard may have created the game, but they've contributed nothing to building the league and broadcasting infrastructure so what gives them the right to suddenly own and control something they've invested absolutely nothing in?
On May 06 2010 01:18 Zeridian wrote: I think this thread is more about people protecting Esports as a korean sport, rather than the creators of the game themselves. So blizzard goes on to create a game that has lasting value, but you guys are so caught up in your love for the current MBC/OGN support for the game that you guys are willing to give power to KESPA? If I made a game and people were using MY game, to make profits. I would definitely want control/ a piece of the chip for the money they were making off MY game.
Greedy is a loaded word, companies are in it to make profit (hands down). Whether it's KESPA or Blizzard, they both are in it to make some money, otherwise they would cease to exist.
They were paid to be able to broadcast BW and they probably sold a lot more copies due to the publicity. People should stop talking as if Blizzard gained nothing at all from the korean eSports scene.
On May 06 2010 02:58 JinMaikeul wrote: There's a huge difference between getting a piece of the profit and demanding that you have complete control and ownership of anything anyone ever does with your creation. If a company designed a bicycle, they have absolutely no right to claim ownership of every stunt performance ever filmed using that bicycle. Blizzard gets their share from the sale of the game. What people then create with the game or within it belongs to the individual creators. If Blizzard wants to control everything maybe they should invest their own money building studios, securing tv broadcasting licenses, and everything else that the corporations of KeSPA took on the risk to invest. Blizzard may have created the game, but they've contributed nothing to building the league and broadcasting infrastructure so what gives them the right to suddenly own and control something they've invested absolutely nothing in?
You can't compare ownership of physical things and software.
Technically, when you buy a game you don't own the said game, but own a license to use it in the ways provisioned by the EULA. Also, Blizzard provides an underlying service, Battle.net, that you have to use to play the game whether you want it or not. Which I suppose gives them enough rights to demand whatever it is they want from anyone related to SC if they wish to continue using SC.
On May 06 2010 01:18 Zeridian wrote:Greedy is a loaded word, companies are in it to make profit (hands down). Whether it's KESPA or Blizzard, they both are in it to make some money, otherwise they would cease to exist.
That is simply not true, Blizzard would not case to exist without royalties from esport. That is why it is greedy they already make allot from selling games they don't need more IP rights.
This is a really complicated situation, there a viable interrests on both sides.
This is a problem that only E-Sports have compared to other sports. No other sport has an inventor behind the sport that claims rights over the specific sport. I mean what do you think would happen if the inventor of football came out and said that he wanted money from every single football league since he invented it? That would not work out to anybody's benefit.
Im usually behind blizzard in these things but i really think that, for the sake of E-Sports, Blizzard should butt out of this. If E-Sport is to grow, there cant be big firms trying to squese money out of the sports. It should be the sponsers that have full say in such things.
In short: I think that this is very narrowminded by Blizzard, they should not try to get such a big piece of the cake from KeSPA. Blizzard needs to fuck seriously fuck off, this is not how you treat a sport. Blizzard should have enough from the revenue of the game being bought, just like someone who makes footballs would. Its still a lot of money.
We dont want Blizzard to butt in on the TSL, giving us crap terms if we want to broadcast starcraft? Fuck no.
This is actually a very serious issue and even though i think KeSPA is a badly run organisation, I think they have the right in the grand scheme.
Dont let KeSPA being a badly run organisation blacken your view of what is really going on here.
I don't think this should be any suprise to anyone. Bnet 2.0 is making a strong effort to eliminate possible 3rd parties. Blizzard is basically forcing the game to have a tournament system mostly through their services. ALSO is not including lan for SC2, despite having region locks (divisions). I think blizzard wants full control over their system, and ICCUP isn't gonna be out for SC2. Overall I don't find it that suprising that they want full control over their own product, that they never anticipated to be a "big deal" in South Korea. Even if they hid behind the scenes in their dealings with KESPA don't just read Korean Media and assume it's a blizzard take only situation and KESPA is innocent until the facts are straight. I don't know the facts, so I side with the creators.
JinMaikeul you re bloody right. All these years many players in Europe, America were really good in that game but Blizzard never took advadage of them. In Europe and America the market is really 'dead' (thanks to Blizzard) the people got smarter you know.
What the "company" is really doing it found a new alive market (thanks to KeSPA) their real problem is "how to shell their new broduct (sc2)" nothing else and it's difficult for them while a league is going on in an older version, many people are attached to the old product and noone really cares about their 'new' product.
In the end Blizzard is trying to turn that market to absorbe any 'new' product without making questions and demands.
On May 06 2010 03:16 Kong John wrote: This is a really complicated situation, there a viable interrests on both sides.
This is a problem that only E-Sports have compared to other sports. No other sport has an inventor behind the sport that claims rights over the specific sport. I mean what do you think would happen if the inventor of football came out and said that he wanted money from every single football league since he invented it? That would not work out to anybody's benefit.
Im usually behind blizzard in these things but i really think that, for the sake of E-Sports, Blizzard should butt out of this. If E-Sport is to grow, there cant be big firms trying to squese money out of the sports. It should be the sponsers that have full say in such things.
In short: I think that this is very narrowminded by Blizzard, they should not try to get such a big piece of the cake from KeSPA. Blizzard needs to fuck seriously fuck off, this is not how you treat a sport. Blizzard should have enough from the revenue of the game being bought, just like someone who makes footballs would. Its still a lot of money.
We dont want Blizzard to butt in on the TSL, giving us crap terms if we want to broadcast starcraft? Fuck no.
This is actually a very serious issue and even though i think KeSPA is a badly run organisation, I think they have the right in the grand scheme.
Dont let KeSPA being a badly run organisation blacken your view of what is really going on here.
This. I think we're being far too clouded with KeSPA's past; if BW was broadcasted (ie, over TV) in your country, I wouldn't imagine you'd be too happy if they suddenly stopped broadcasting because it wasn't cost-efficient: Blizzard demanded too much money, the small broadcasting company gets nudged out and Blizzard runs a monopoly of who to charge and who not to, hence effectively the whole e-sports industry (as the vast majority of money comes from BW) lies in the hands of Blizzard. If they pull the support on a small company that only broadcasts SC2, where will that company be? Down the drain, jobs lost, tears shed.
I was always curious about the whole relationship between Blizzard and e Sports in Korea, this is interesting. I highly doubt Blizzard would do any aggressive actions though, just b/c of the huge fanbase in Korea and the riots that would come about when SC 2 comes out
kespa made sc broodwar go on this level it is now - not blizzard.. blizzard made a game and it's great game but kespa made great competitions.. blizzard's job is to create games and shut up.. kespa will give them free marketing at huge market..
i just can't belive how far can go blizzard greed.. i hate that company coz i loved them before.. fkin greedy creeps.. they have WOW, isn't it enough?!
On May 05 2010 21:01 KristianJS wrote: Eh, I'm way too clueless about what laws are involved here and the powerplay between these companies. What I know is this:
Both Kespa and Blizzard are engaged in this standoff because of money, that's it. Neither Blizzard nor Kespa represent some idealistic vision (get the impression a lot of people think of Blizzard as pure and virtuous...), they're just big companies fighting over control of a market. I have no clue who will win or what the outcome will be, nor do I really know what's more "fair" (both sides can make a good case) but honestly I'm not too worried. There IS a market for SC and hopefully for SC2 soon as well, and 'market's abhor a vacuum' so at the end of the day it's not like everything will collapse.
I guess at worst things will be shifted around a bit. Maybe I'm being naive here, but that's what I reckon...
+1
On May 05 2010 22:25 maybenexttime wrote: @Yurebis
The reason people think that a true esports scene won't flourish without KeSPA is becase KeSPA = corporate sponsors, broadcasting companies, regulatory body, etc.
Can you imagine a lively esport scene without 11 progaming teams, OGN & MBC and a governing body? You're talking about some mysterious company replacing KeSPA, but exactly what company do you think would be able to replace the corporate sponsors behind the progaming teams, the broadcasting TV stations and at the same time regulate the whole sport?
The companies who are already involved with the StarCraft esports scene, members of KeSPA for the most part, are some of the biggest corporations in Korea. It's not exactly easy to replace them.
Those sponsors and channels are not tied to kespa, kespa and them are a symbiotic profit relationship. The sponsors are tied to the fans, the source of its profit. If KeSPA goes away, they'll find another agency who can do what KeSPA did, to keep business model and therefore profits going.
For KeSPA to die, even if it meant all the corporations would never be able to enter the scene again (no such thing, unless blizzard for some stupid reason doesn't allow those specific corporations to pay them royalties for SC2, which would be counter-intuitive to Blizzard's profits), it doesn't mean the fans will cease to like starcraft. The demand is still there, Kespa and the sponsors were supplying that demand. With them gone (even if all the sponsors are gone), new sponsors can come in to seize the profit opportunity (unless again, Blizzard is being such douches so much that no one wants to do business with them)
I personally dislike Blizzard's attempt to control everything. I would just make a game and allow everyone to broadcast, play lan, do whatever. It costs a lot trying to control, and I would not even bother trying to.
However, they know what they're doing, if they're doing something like that, it's because they feel they can be a "better KeSPA" themselves. If you believe Blizzard would put itself in a position where they would become unpopular and therefore miss a profit, you better think again. They will figure out the best means to draw the fans and sponsors, without KeSPA if they judge it to be a burden or unnecessary.
Again, at worst, what can happen is, BW keeps going in korea while blizzard missed their chance to capture the sponsors (with or without KeSPA) due to their "abusive" business models.
On May 06 2010 04:49 purgerinho wrote: kespa made sc broodwar go on this level it is now - not blizzard.. blizzard made a game and it's great game but kespa made great competitions.. blizzard's job is to create games and shut up.. kespa will give them free marketing at huge market..
i just can't belive how far can go blizzard greed.. i hate that company coz i loved them before.. fkin greedy creeps.. they have WOW, isn't it enough?!
This epitomizes most of the posts in this thread. Blizzard is a big bad wolf, KeSPA must be in the right. WRONG. Honestly, if WOW were enough, Blizzard wouldn't make any other game and you'd have nothing to play. Be glad that your money, Korean money, and money all over the world is still appetizing enough to Blizzard to motivate them into making more amazing games. This is how the world works outside of the basements of progenitors.
KeSPA is not immune to US-based intellectual properties, as South Korean laws stipulate almost to a fault the same rights that the US upholds. KeSPA is not supported by their government, or even all of their sponsors. They may say this, but it is in their favor to say it. They are in a corner, NEED to re-open negotiations, and the only thing they could possibly do is spin the truth and try to garner public support.
It won't work. KeSPA is not the healthiest thing for eSports on a wider level. They want to dominate the scene like they have been in the past, threatening players and sponsors who even consider touching tournaments and networks outside of their own domain. Heck, they even tried to sell the rights to something they don't own just to fasten more control and more income.
If you think blindly supporting KeSPA is something you should be doing, you should research and reconsider.
On May 05 2010 21:01 KristianJS wrote: Eh, I'm way too clueless about what laws are involved here and the powerplay between these companies. What I know is this:
Both Kespa and Blizzard are engaged in this standoff because of money, that's it. Neither Blizzard nor Kespa represent some idealistic vision (get the impression a lot of people think of Blizzard as pure and virtuous...), they're just big companies fighting over control of a market. I have no clue who will win or what the outcome will be, nor do I really know what's more "fair" (both sides can make a good case) but honestly I'm not too worried. There IS a market for SC and hopefully for SC2 soon as well, and 'market's abhor a vacuum' so at the end of the day it's not like everything will collapse.
I guess at worst things will be shifted around a bit. Maybe I'm being naive here, but that's what I reckon...
On May 05 2010 22:25 maybenexttime wrote: @Yurebis
The reason people think that a true esports scene won't flourish without KeSPA is becase KeSPA = corporate sponsors, broadcasting companies, regulatory body, etc.
Can you imagine a lively esport scene without 11 progaming teams, OGN & MBC and a governing body? You're talking about some mysterious company replacing KeSPA, but exactly what company do you think would be able to replace the corporate sponsors behind the progaming teams, the broadcasting TV stations and at the same time regulate the whole sport?
The companies who are already involved with the StarCraft esports scene, members of KeSPA for the most part, are some of the biggest corporations in Korea. It's not exactly easy to replace them.
Those sponsors and channels are not tied to kespa, kespa and them are a symbiotic profit relationship. The sponsors are tied to the fans, the source of its profit. If KeSPA goes away, they'll find another agency who can do what KeSPA did, to keep business model and therefore profits going.
For KeSPA to die, even if it meant all the corporations would never be able to enter the scene again (no such thing, unless blizzard for some stupid reason doesn't allow those specific corporations to pay them royalties for SC2, which would be counter-intuitive to Blizzard's profits), it doesn't mean the fans will cease to like starcraft. The demand is still there, Kespa and the sponsors were supplying that demand. With them gone (even if all the sponsors are gone), new sponsors can come in to seize the profit opportunity (unless again, Blizzard is being such douches so much that no one wants to do business with them)
I personally dislike Blizzard's attempt to control everything. I would just make a game and allow everyone to broadcast, play lan, do whatever. It costs a lot trying to control, and I would not even bother trying to.
However, they know what they're doing, if they're doing something like that, it's because they feel they can be a "better KeSPA" themselves. If you believe Blizzard would put itself in a position where they would become unpopular and therefore miss a profit, you better think again. They will figure out the best means to draw the fans and sponsors, without KeSPA if they judge it to be a burden or unnecessary.
Again, at worst, what can happen is, BW keeps going in korea while blizzard missed their chance to capture the sponsors (with or without KeSPA) due to their "abusive" business models.
What do you mean by KeSPA then? Afaik those sponsors comprise KeSPA for the most part. If they leave "KeSPA" and form another coalition it'll still be KeSPA, just under a different name... ;; And that new coalition would still not agree to Blizzard terms.
So I'll repeat my question: what do you understand by KeSPA? What would be left of KeSPA if the corporate sponsors and OGN/MBC left it? As far as I know, not much.
But do you understand the issue at hand? It's not some imaginary KeSPA that has a gripe with Blizzard. It's the corporate sponsors and the broadcasting companies that oppose those ridiculous terms. KeSPA is just a name of their coalition that happens to be Korean esports governing body. The team owners will not give away the teams they're investing tons of money into just like that. OGN/MBC are not going to give the ownership of all the StarCraft (2) related content they produce to Blizzard either.
What Blizzard means by looking for a new partner is turning their back to the corporate sponsors who invested in the StarCraft esports sector, OGN and MBC - not the referees or whoever else.
KeSPA isn't doing too great, but I can only imagine Blizzard would screw everything up even more. They're already being extremely restrictive when it comes to having any sort of bigger initiative in the esports sector with SC2. They have all sorts of stupid policies and ideas and they removed some crucial features that are only gonig to hurt the esports scene. They can't even do any proper coverage for things like BlizzCon and they think they can gover the whole esports scene. Ridiculous.
On May 06 2010 05:08 urashimakt wrote:Heck, they even tried to sell the rights to something they don't own just to fasten more control and more income.
They hire the players, they have a right to decide where they will play. It is so uncommon/strange that teams got money from leagues? You can't know if it is fair of not if you don't know they costs/profits.
Do you guys honestly expect Blizzard to pull another SC1 where they literally lost all control of how, when, where and by whom the game was played? So they aren't too keen on associating their brand with a corrupt and messed up partner that has proved to be anything but cooperative, unless they get the final say in things...can you honestly blame them?
On May 06 2010 05:26 Longshank wrote: Do you guys honestly expect Blizzard to pull another SC1 where they literally lost all control of how, when, where and by whom the game was played? So they aren't too keen on associating their brand with a corrupt and messed up partner that has proved to be anything but cooperative, unless they get the final say in things...can you honestly blame them?
Time for a reality check.
Seriously, how can they be any more cooperative? They wanted to pay the royalties or whatever. But Blizzard conditions are unacceptable, simle as that. If anything, it's Blizzard that's being uncooperative.
On May 06 2010 05:14 maybenexttime wrote:They can't even do any proper coverage for things like BlizzCon and they think they can gover the whole esports scene. Ridiculous.
That's why they've stated on several occasions they aren't going to run the show, that they need a partner to do it for them.
On May 06 2010 05:26 Longshank wrote: Do you guys honestly expect Blizzard to pull another SC1 where they literally lost all control of how, when, where and by whom the game was played? So they aren't too keen on associating their brand with a corrupt and messed up partner that has proved to be anything but cooperative, unless they get the final say in things...can you honestly blame them?
Time for a reality check.
The reality is that this was the deal, they were willing to invest in SC esports if they were given free hand. They had risked they money got benefit from it, and Blizzard had befit by selling many more copies in SK then they would. Later on they wanted to change the terms. Why would Koreans cooperate and change previously agreed terms for a worse ones? Is it even reasonable to cry that somebody took a risk, made a profit on something that you had sold him in the past, and asking him to change the terms now?
On May 06 2010 05:14 maybenexttime wrote:They can't even do any proper coverage for things like BlizzCon and they think they can gover the whole esports scene. Ridiculous.
That's why they've stated on several occasions they aren't going to run the show, that they need a partner to do it for them.
Yes a partner who is going bow down to them and lick their feet or something. Honestly, they are so conceited. I shan't dare imagine how Esports will turn out to be if Blizzard gets their way.
On May 06 2010 05:14 maybenexttime wrote:They can't even do any proper coverage for things like BlizzCon and they think they can gover the whole esports scene. Ridiculous.
That's why they've stated on several occasions they aren't going to run the show, that they need a partner to do it for them.
A partner? More like a slave that'll do the job for them, give away the ownership of any content he (?) produces and whom Blizzard will be able to legally strip of any profits. ;;
On May 05 2010 21:01 KristianJS wrote: Eh, I'm way too clueless about what laws are involved here and the powerplay between these companies. What I know is this:
Both Kespa and Blizzard are engaged in this standoff because of money, that's it. Neither Blizzard nor Kespa represent some idealistic vision (get the impression a lot of people think of Blizzard as pure and virtuous...), they're just big companies fighting over control of a market. I have no clue who will win or what the outcome will be, nor do I really know what's more "fair" (both sides can make a good case) but honestly I'm not too worried. There IS a market for SC and hopefully for SC2 soon as well, and 'market's abhor a vacuum' so at the end of the day it's not like everything will collapse.
I guess at worst things will be shifted around a bit. Maybe I'm being naive here, but that's what I reckon...
+1
On May 05 2010 22:25 maybenexttime wrote: @Yurebis
The reason people think that a true esports scene won't flourish without KeSPA is becase KeSPA = corporate sponsors, broadcasting companies, regulatory body, etc.
Can you imagine a lively esport scene without 11 progaming teams, OGN & MBC and a governing body? You're talking about some mysterious company replacing KeSPA, but exactly what company do you think would be able to replace the corporate sponsors behind the progaming teams, the broadcasting TV stations and at the same time regulate the whole sport?
The companies who are already involved with the StarCraft esports scene, members of KeSPA for the most part, are some of the biggest corporations in Korea. It's not exactly easy to replace them.
Those sponsors and channels are not tied to kespa, kespa and them are a symbiotic profit relationship. The sponsors are tied to the fans, the source of its profit. If KeSPA goes away, they'll find another agency who can do what KeSPA did, to keep business model and therefore profits going.
For KeSPA to die, even if it meant all the corporations would never be able to enter the scene again (no such thing, unless blizzard for some stupid reason doesn't allow those specific corporations to pay them royalties for SC2, which would be counter-intuitive to Blizzard's profits), it doesn't mean the fans will cease to like starcraft. The demand is still there, Kespa and the sponsors were supplying that demand. With them gone (even if all the sponsors are gone), new sponsors can come in to seize the profit opportunity (unless again, Blizzard is being such douches so much that no one wants to do business with them)
I personally dislike Blizzard's attempt to control everything. I would just make a game and allow everyone to broadcast, play lan, do whatever. It costs a lot trying to control, and I would not even bother trying to.
However, they know what they're doing, if they're doing something like that, it's because they feel they can be a "better KeSPA" themselves. If you believe Blizzard would put itself in a position where they would become unpopular and therefore miss a profit, you better think again. They will figure out the best means to draw the fans and sponsors, without KeSPA if they judge it to be a burden or unnecessary.
Again, at worst, what can happen is, BW keeps going in korea while blizzard missed their chance to capture the sponsors (with or without KeSPA) due to their "abusive" business models.
What do you mean by KeSPA then? Afaik those sponsors comprise KeSPA for the most part. If they leave "KeSPA" and form another coalition it'll still be KeSPA, just under a different name... ;; And that new coalition would still not agree to Blizzard terms.
So I'll repeat my question: what do you understand by KeSPA? What would be left of KeSPA if the corporate sponsors and OGN/MBC left it? As far as I know, not much.
But do you understand the issue at hand? It's not some imaginary KeSPA that has a gripe with Blizzard. It's the corporate sponsors and the broadcasting companies that oppose those ridiculous terms. KeSPA is just a name of their coalition that happens to be Korean esports governing body. The team owners will not give away the teams they're investing tons of money into just like that. OGN/MBC are not going to give the ownership of all the StarCraft (2) related content they produce to Blizzard either.
What Blizzard means by looking for a new partner is turning their back to the corporate sponsors who invested in the StarCraft esports sector, OGN and MBC - not the referees or whoever else.
KeSPA isn't doing too great, but I can only imagine Blizzard would screw everything up even more. They're already being extremely restrictive when it comes to having any sort of bigger initiative in the esports sector with SC2. They have all sorts of stupid policies and ideas and they removed some crucial features that are only gonig to hurt the esports scene. They can't even do any proper coverage for things like BlizzCon and they think they can gover the whole esports scene. Ridiculous.
OK if what you say is true, then you mean the transition between sponsors+channels -> KeSPA is quite flawless? KeSPA has always been doing exactly that which the sponsors want?
I see what you mean then. Still,
The sponsors are only loosely affiliated, for if they see that there's a greater profit opportunity outside of KeSPA, don't doubt for a second, they'll leave KeSPA and go with it.
Say Blizzard doesn't give KeSPA SC2, and tries to establish it's new "BlizzeSPA" (what an ugly name) with separate licensing, separate tourneys obviously, separate channels (with GOM maybe). At first it starts slow, because KeSPA tightens it's grips on the players and channels, saying they can't play, broadcast, nor acquire licenses with BlizzeSPA if they want to keep their KeSPA ones. So KeSPA and BlizzeSPA are competing on the starcraft korean scene. Then, if SC2 really is the superior game as blizzard says it is, it will inevitably, even with the restraints that the old sponsors put into the starcraft 1 players, loose the market share. Fans will like starcraft 2 better, the nerds will be playing sc2 more eventually, and sc1 will be a thing of the past. The KeSPA corporations then, are now on deficit, and once one or two of them leave kespa, they'll all break apart, or at best, they'll shrink in size a lot and become just a niche, or just another game league, w\ few to no teams anymore. All players and fans shifted to SC2. The corporations will want to join BlizzeSPA because that's where the money is at now.
Or, in the opposite perspective, SC2 and BlizzeSPA sucks so much balls that there won't be a transition ever and korea will stay w\ BW.
Point being, the corporations just go where the money's at, meaning, where the fans want to go.
Seriously, how can they be any more cooperative? They wanted to pay the royalties or whatever. But Blizzard conditions are unacceptable, simle as that. If anything, it's Blizzard that's being uncooperative.
Royalties means nothing to Blizzard compared to protecting their good name. If Al-Qaida were to sponsor next season of Proleague Blizzard wants to make sure they got the power to stop it. Yes an extreme example but that's what this is about. If Kespa(or a chinese, indian or whatever organization) decides to go for (even more) slave-like contracts and opens sweatshops for children they need to have the rights to shut that down or atleast make sure it isn't done in the name of Starcraft. How is that being unreasonable?
That they have neglected their rights in the past is irrelevant.
The problem is that Blizzard will be limited to only having amateur tournaments without having pro teams, nobody will invest in teams without having any rights, and it does not look like Blizzard will make any teams themselves.
Seriously, how can they be any more cooperative? They wanted to pay the royalties or whatever. But Blizzard conditions are unacceptable, simle as that. If anything, it's Blizzard that's being uncooperative.
Royalties means nothing to Blizzard compared to protecting their good name. If Al-Qaida were to sponsor next season of Proleague Blizzard wants to make sure they got the power to stop it. Yes an extreme example but that's what this is about. If Kespa(or a chinese, indian or whatever organization) decides to go for (even more) slave-like contracts and opens sweatshops for children they need to have the rights to shut that down or atleast make sure it isn't done in the name of Starcraft. How is that being unreasonable?
That they have neglected their rights in the past is irrelevant.
These kids CHOOSE to do it. They aren't forced. They want to play the game. They want to spend 12 hours a day playing. If they can't take it, they are free to drop out and continue with their lives. No one is putting a gun to their heads making them work.
Seriously, how can they be any more cooperative? They wanted to pay the royalties or whatever. But Blizzard conditions are unacceptable, simle as that. If anything, it's Blizzard that's being uncooperative.
Royalties means nothing to Blizzard compared to protecting their good name. If Al-Qaida were to sponsor next season of Proleague Blizzard wants to make sure they got the power to stop it. Yes an extreme example but that's what this is about. If Kespa(or a chinese, indian or whatever organization) decides to go for (even more) slave-like contracts and opens sweatshops for children they need to have the rights to shut that down or atleast make sure it isn't done in the name of Starcraft. How is that being unreasonable?
That they have neglected their rights in the past is irrelevant.
It is extreme. I can't think of any non-extreme example tbh. Have you tried coming up with any?
And still, it's just one of the conditions. What's up with owning the teams other companies are paying millions (afaik) of dollars a year to sustain for free or getting the ownership of any content related to SC(2)? And what the rest of those mad conditions?
On May 06 2010 06:16 maybenexttime wrote: [ It is extreme. I can't think of any non-extreme example tbh. Have you tried coming up with any?
And still, it's just one of the conditions. What's up with owning the teams other companies are paying millions (afaik) of dollars a year to sustain for free or getting the ownership of any content related to SC(2)? And what the rest of those mad conditions?
Just replace Al-Qaida with any shady corporation with a questionable reputation. Like one in the porn industry or company dealing weapons. How would they be able to stop it unless it's put on paper?
And they aren't owning the teams, they got the right to use their players. I'm not sure about that one but I suppose they didn't appreciate the GOMTV stunt from Kespa.
And ownership to any content related to SC2 is also about protecting their trademark and the right to royalties when someone makes profit off their IP.
Basicly every condition is a way for Blizzard to get a veto in anything concerning their game and characters, that doesn't mean they plan to halt any and all things concerning SC2. If you think Blizzard isn't aware of the marketing value of a flourishing e-sport scene you are mistaken.
Maybe instead of kespa paying blizzard... they could help promote other games with ads in the individual/proleague? They should atleast negotiate this more... rather than dick measuring.
Seriously, how can they be any more cooperative? They wanted to pay the royalties or whatever. But Blizzard conditions are unacceptable, simle as that. If anything, it's Blizzard that's being uncooperative.
Royalties means nothing to Blizzard compared to protecting their good name. If Al-Qaida were to sponsor next season of Proleague Blizzard wants to make sure they got the power to stop it. Yes an extreme example but that's what this is about. If Kespa(or a chinese, indian or whatever organization) decides to go for (even more) slave-like contracts and opens sweatshops for children they need to have the rights to shut that down or atleast make sure it isn't done in the name of Starcraft. How is that being unreasonable?
That they have neglected their rights in the past is irrelevant.
LoL at how all these "blizzard was to protect their 'good name/image'" arguements present ridiculous senarios and then admit said senario is redikulous thus haveing effectively said nothing...
I wouldnt trust the current blizzard with anything..
Back in the days when they were getting popular... (Diablo 1, Warcraft 2, Starcraft, Broodwar, Diablo 2) Blizzard were the men.. After the release of Brood War I swear they went down hill.. Wc3, Wow, Sc2 are indicators.. And I mean.. Its like they made a great game and then completely forgot about it.. And it shows too when the blizzard employees know NOTHING about the game..
Sure they made a great game, but they didnt make an E-Sport.. I dont know who did so Im just going to say KeSPA did.. If thats the case then goodjob KeSPA even though everyone hated them until now. Either way Blizzard is the "bad guy" imo.
Back in the day.. People when they thought of "blizzard" they wouldnt think of a snow storm, they would think of Starcraft:Brood Wars, or Diablo 2.. Now they will think of WoW.. I dont trust blizzard at all lol, and there customer service is as bad as KeSPA's ridiculous rules.
I REALLY hope Sc2 doesnt get anywhere near E-sports level, because 1) I hate blizzard 2) Sc2 isnt fit 3) I would never watch sc2..
When sc2 beta came out I watched sc2 for a total of 5 min before closed the stream because I was as bored as when I watched wc3 at blizzcon
Anyways... Blizzard made Broodwar, but afterwards didnt do shit to make it become an E-sport.. So even if KeSPA isnt responsible for it, I still take their side.
I think you have a serious misconception of what KeSPA actually is. These corporations are not sponsoring KeSPA. They ARE KeSPA. Blizzard could do nothing with GOM because GOM is owned by CJ Media, which is part of KeSPA. No TV network in Korea will work with Blizzard because they are either owned by KeSPA corporations or would not benefit from aggravating them. Simply put, Blizzard has absolutely no leverage in Korea at all. Fighting against KeSPA in Korea is directly warring against Samsung, CJ, MBC, OGN, pretty much all the major companies in broadcast, technology, and telecommunications along with all the influence they hold in business and politics... This carries serious implications and is not a simple matter at all. Even if Blizzard somehow got through those obstacles, they would find it difficult to find sponsors in Korea. Do you think Shinhan Bank or even Korean Air would want to irk any of the afformentioned KeSPA members? Companies like Korean Air which would sponsor events will at some point or another need to have good relations with a company like Samsung. They have no need for any relationship at all with Blizzard or Activision, which are really insignificant no-name companies by comparison. There's also no real way for Blizzard to "not give" SC2 to KeSPA for broadcasting either since the way Korean law is, if they just buy a legal copy of the game, they're permitted to broadcast it. There would be no realistic way for Blizzard to stop them either so that entire argument about competing in that manner is moot...
Blizzard's best course of action would really to be to leave KeSPA alone and forget about trying to control Korea altogether. It's too difficult as the eSports infrastructure there has grown too strong to be controlled in such a manner by a company as small as Blizzard. Just let KeSPA do what they want... Blizzard should instead focus its own efforts on developing somewhere outside of Korea from the ground up. It will be much easier for them to have influence on a smaller, more insignificant league like the MLG or a similar league. Once they have done this, they will have a little bit more bargaining power when it comes to Korea because they will have a voice in the non-Korean side of any negotiations in terms of international competition.
Just to put things into perspective. Imagine a conglomerate in the USA comprised of Time Warner, Verizon, Sprint, AT&T, most major broadcasting companies, and some far reaching company like Microsoft. Then imagine they had influence over half of Congress and also were on the board of pretty much any other major company... That's pretty much KeSPA because of the political environment in Korea and the way Korean corporations operate (everyone has their hand in everything). If NCSoft comes over from Korea to the USA and tries to strong arm that group of companies, do you think they'll take them seriously? Blizzard needs to stop trying here and spend their time on more productive things. Korea will not budge for them because they don't need to..
On May 05 2010 19:24 Lyrok wrote: Care to elaborate? Unless this is something WoW specific.
Well WoW is the biggest current example since it's Blizzard's major cash cow. For other examples, look at SC, D2, and WC3. All of them lack serious ladders and antihacks which ultimately forced 3rd parties to do the job Blizzard should have been doing if they actually cared about maintaining a competitive environment for serious gamers. Blizzard has no track record of successfully handling a competitive game and they've historically flaked on older games once they sold their copies and released a new game. I don't understand why people are suddenly inclined to trust them now... They've done nothing to deserve such confidence from the community. They make wonderful games. They just suck at managing them...
This is a very good post and my biggest problem with this whole thing. I could personally care less about what Blizzard or Kespa want...I'm more focused on what us as players should want.
I can assume that everybody here wants e-sports to grow as we are all e-sports fans, and you should know that if Blizzard wants complete control of every SC2 operation, e-sports will not grow and it is as simple as that. E-sports grows when third parties get involved and make it grow. When the creating company wants 100% control I can guarantee it will never take off like it should.
I think you have a serious misconception of what KeSPA actually is.
And I think you have a serious misconception on who ultimately controls esports. If every fan would be sick of SC and wanted to see SC2 matches, who would buckle? The fans, having to put up with the KeSPA's BW? Or would they just leave, "forcing" KeSPA to start including SC2 (be it with Blizzards' approval or not)?
I don't doubt for a second that all those oh soh powerful corporations would be the first to buckle, because their interest is in advertising, which in turn, depends on the fans interest. If the fans want SC2, they better deliver SC2, or suffer losses.
Thank you for explaining to me what KeSPA is, but I'm doubtful that it such an united corporate front as you pose it to be. Corporations only have profit as their goal, right? An alliance is only a circumstantial means to get to the costumers what the costumers want (conversely, to get $$$ from them). Whenever the fans want something else, they'll break.
The best thing for the players and spectators of Starcraft is just Blizzard to stay out of Korea and leave the successful eSports infrastructure already created to run itself. Blizzard doing this literally helps nobody, it doesn't even help themselves because now they are completely alienating the single most well developed eSports organization and therefore by proxy, Korea in general. I don't understand what they are thinking to gain from this move, with the demands that they MUST know will not be accepted.
If they are serious about eSports then why are they not focusing their efforts on the rest of the world instead of the one place it happens to already work? It undermines everything they say they are trying to do. Along with their actions such as removing Lan.. of course i understand why they did this, but is it really necessarily? The recent Star Wars tournament had lag because of it, an offline tournament having fucking lag. Along with no way to go onto foreign servers, is this REALLY aimed at competitive play in any way at all? Think about it, is any action Blizzard have chosen in the benefit of eSports in any way.. i don't see how anyone can support Blizzard in this at all.
I think you have a serious misconception of what KeSPA actually is. These corporations are not sponsoring KeSPA. They ARE KeSPA. Blizzard could do nothing with GOM because GOM is owned by CJ Media, which is part of KeSPA. No TV network in Korea will work with Blizzard because they are either owned by KeSPA corporations or would not benefit from aggravating them. Simply put, Blizzard has absolutely no leverage in Korea at all. Fighting against KeSPA in Korea is directly warring against Samsung, CJ, MBC, OGN, pretty much all the major companies in broadcast, technology, and telecommunications along with all the influence they hold in business and politics... This carries serious implications and is not a simple matter at all. Even if Blizzard somehow got through those obstacles, they would find it difficult to find sponsors in Korea. Do you think Shinhan Bank or even Korean Air would want to irk any of the afformentioned KeSPA members? Companies like Korean Air which would sponsor events will at some point or another need to have good relations with a company like Samsung. They have no need for any relationship at all with Blizzard or Activision, which are really insignificant no-name companies by comparison. There's also no real way for Blizzard to "not give" SC2 to KeSPA for broadcasting either since the way Korean law is, if they just buy a legal copy of the game, they're permitted to broadcast it. There would be no realistic way for Blizzard to stop them either so that entire argument about competing in that manner is moot...
Blizzard's best course of action would really to be to leave KeSPA alone and forget about trying to control Korea altogether. It's too difficult as the eSports infrastructure there has grown too strong to be controlled in such a manner by a company as small as Blizzard. Just let KeSPA do what they want... Blizzard should instead focus its own efforts on developing somewhere outside of Korea from the ground up. It will be much easier for them to have influence on a smaller, more insignificant league like the MLG or a similar league. Once they have done this, they will have a little bit more bargaining power when it comes to Korea because they will have a voice in the non-Korean side of any negotiations in terms of international competition.
Just to put things into perspective. Imagine a conglomerate in the USA comprised of Time Warner, Verizon, Sprint, AT&T, most major broadcasting companies, and some far reaching company like Microsoft. Then imagine they had influence over half of Congress and also were on the board of pretty much any other major company... That's pretty much KeSPA because of the political environment in Korea and the way Korean corporations operate (everyone has their hand in everything). If NCSoft comes over from Korea to the USA and tries to strong arm that group of companies, do you think they'll take them seriously? Blizzard needs to stop trying here and spend their time on more productive things. Korea will not budge for them because they don't need to..
Sorry I was gonna leave this thread but I just had to reply to this nonsense.
"Blizzard has absolutely no leverage in Korea at all"? How about complete and absolute rights to Starcraft 2, a game Kespa would be hard pressed to survive without?
You should rather ask what leverage Kespa got on Blizzard. Even without a Korean Proleague, SC2 will still sell loads and loads of copies in Korea, there will be a pro-scene much like WC3(lots of players are already leaving Kespa in order to be allowed to play SC2). It would be unfortunate but on a global scale not a big deal, nothing they'd ever give in to Kespa for at this point.
I think you have a serious misconception of what KeSPA actually is.
And I think you have a serious misconception on who ultimately controls esports. If every fan would be sick of SC and wanted to see SC2 matches, who would buckle? The fans, having to put up with the KeSPA's BW? Or would they just leave, "forcing" KeSPA to start including SC2 (be it with Blizzards' approval or not)?
I don't doubt for a second that all those oh soh powerful corporations would be the first to buckle, because their interest is in advertising, which in turn, depends on the fans interest. If the fans want SC2, they better deliver SC2, or suffer losses.
Thank you for explaining to me what KeSPA is, but I'm doubtful that it such an united corporate front as you pose it to be. Corporations only have profit as their goal, right? An alliance is only a circumstantial means to get to the costumers what the costumers want (conversely, to get $$$ from them). Whenever the fans want something else, they'll break.
Several problems with your position.
There are other games on the level of esports in korea besides SC. Not nearly as big as SC of course, but enough where the loss of SC isn't completely fatal.
Also, apparently the netizens in Korea are overwhelmingly backing kespa. And where would esports be without the major corporations paying the costs for the infrastructure required to broadcast progaming. It's the strength and charisma of the initial progamers which not only established esports as a viable media, but convinced companies that it was worth putting money into it. Just read about how ghetto it was back in the early days of SC progaming to see how different it would be without these major sponsorships.
As the other guy mentioned, the fact that blizzard is being confrontational with kespa, which is made up of *the* major corporations in Korea, means that it's doubtful any of them would sponsor something blizzard starts on its own, which makes it more likely that blizzard would be the one to be forced to resort to shady sponsors. Oh and because blizzard is basically trying to stomp all over them and not leaving much room to accommodate while saving face, especially by making it personal between blizzard and kespa, I wonder how accommodating said sponsors will really be in dealing with blizzard the foreigner company. Korea != America.
On May 05 2010 21:01 KristianJS wrote: Eh, I'm way too clueless about what laws are involved here and the powerplay between these companies. What I know is this:
Both Kespa and Blizzard are engaged in this standoff because of money, that's it. Neither Blizzard nor Kespa represent some idealistic vision (get the impression a lot of people think of Blizzard as pure and virtuous...), they're just big companies fighting over control of a market. I have no clue who will win or what the outcome will be, nor do I really know what's more "fair" (both sides can make a good case) but honestly I'm not too worried. There IS a market for SC and hopefully for SC2 soon as well, and 'market's abhor a vacuum' so at the end of the day it's not like everything will collapse.
I guess at worst things will be shifted around a bit. Maybe I'm being naive here, but that's what I reckon...
+1
On May 05 2010 22:25 maybenexttime wrote: @Yurebis
The reason people think that a true esports scene won't flourish without KeSPA is becase KeSPA = corporate sponsors, broadcasting companies, regulatory body, etc.
Can you imagine a lively esport scene without 11 progaming teams, OGN & MBC and a governing body? You're talking about some mysterious company replacing KeSPA, but exactly what company do you think would be able to replace the corporate sponsors behind the progaming teams, the broadcasting TV stations and at the same time regulate the whole sport?
The companies who are already involved with the StarCraft esports scene, members of KeSPA for the most part, are some of the biggest corporations in Korea. It's not exactly easy to replace them.
Those sponsors and channels are not tied to kespa, kespa and them are a symbiotic profit relationship. The sponsors are tied to the fans, the source of its profit. If KeSPA goes away, they'll find another agency who can do what KeSPA did, to keep business model and therefore profits going.
For KeSPA to die, even if it meant all the corporations would never be able to enter the scene again (no such thing, unless blizzard for some stupid reason doesn't allow those specific corporations to pay them royalties for SC2, which would be counter-intuitive to Blizzard's profits), it doesn't mean the fans will cease to like starcraft. The demand is still there, Kespa and the sponsors were supplying that demand. With them gone (even if all the sponsors are gone), new sponsors can come in to seize the profit opportunity (unless again, Blizzard is being such douches so much that no one wants to do business with them)
I personally dislike Blizzard's attempt to control everything. I would just make a game and allow everyone to broadcast, play lan, do whatever. It costs a lot trying to control, and I would not even bother trying to.
However, they know what they're doing, if they're doing something like that, it's because they feel they can be a "better KeSPA" themselves. If you believe Blizzard would put itself in a position where they would become unpopular and therefore miss a profit, you better think again. They will figure out the best means to draw the fans and sponsors, without KeSPA if they judge it to be a burden or unnecessary.
Again, at worst, what can happen is, BW keeps going in korea while blizzard missed their chance to capture the sponsors (with or without KeSPA) due to their "abusive" business models.
What do you mean by KeSPA then? Afaik those sponsors comprise KeSPA for the most part. If they leave "KeSPA" and form another coalition it'll still be KeSPA, just under a different name... ;; And that new coalition would still not agree to Blizzard terms.
So I'll repeat my question: what do you understand by KeSPA? What would be left of KeSPA if the corporate sponsors and OGN/MBC left it? As far as I know, not much.
But do you understand the issue at hand? It's not some imaginary KeSPA that has a gripe with Blizzard. It's the corporate sponsors and the broadcasting companies that oppose those ridiculous terms. KeSPA is just a name of their coalition that happens to be Korean esports governing body. The team owners will not give away the teams they're investing tons of money into just like that. OGN/MBC are not going to give the ownership of all the StarCraft (2) related content they produce to Blizzard either.
What Blizzard means by looking for a new partner is turning their back to the corporate sponsors who invested in the StarCraft esports sector, OGN and MBC - not the referees or whoever else.
KeSPA isn't doing too great, but I can only imagine Blizzard would screw everything up even more. They're already being extremely restrictive when it comes to having any sort of bigger initiative in the esports sector with SC2. They have all sorts of stupid policies and ideas and they removed some crucial features that are only gonig to hurt the esports scene. They can't even do any proper coverage for things like BlizzCon and they think they can gover the whole esports scene. Ridiculous.
OK if what you say is true, then you mean the transition between sponsors+channels -> KeSPA is quite flawless? KeSPA has always been doing exactly that which the sponsors want?
I see what you mean then. Still,
The sponsors are only loosely affiliated, for if they see that there's a greater profit opportunity outside of KeSPA, don't doubt for a second, they'll leave KeSPA and go with it.
Say Blizzard doesn't give KeSPA SC2, and tries to establish it's new "BlizzeSPA" (what an ugly name) with separate licensing, separate tourneys obviously, separate channels (with GOM maybe). At first it starts slow, because KeSPA tightens it's grips on the players and channels, saying they can't play, broadcast, nor acquire licenses with BlizzeSPA if they want to keep their KeSPA ones. So KeSPA and BlizzeSPA are competing on the starcraft korean scene. Then, if SC2 really is the superior game as blizzard says it is, it will inevitably, even with the restraints that the old sponsors put into the starcraft 1 players, loose the market share. Fans will like starcraft 2 better, the nerds will be playing sc2 more eventually, and sc1 will be a thing of the past. The KeSPA corporations then, are now on deficit, and once one or two of them leave kespa, they'll all break apart, or at best, they'll shrink in size a lot and become just a niche, or just another game league, w\ few to no teams anymore. All players and fans shifted to SC2. The corporations will want to join BlizzeSPA because that's where the money is at now.
Or, in the opposite perspective, SC2 and BlizzeSPA sucks so much balls that there won't be a transition ever and korea will stay w\ BW.
Point being, the corporations just go where the money's at, meaning, where the fans want to go.
So I wouldn't fear for KeSPA's death.
Absolutely agree with Yurebis.
I also don't fear for KeSPA's death because i am not from Korea, but KeSPA have a very good market position in the mind of thousands of korean proplayers, fans, and supporters.
If KeSPA dies it will die also with those untangible atributes like, Brand Positioning, Know-How, and Trust. The problem is that if a new company appears to be the substitute of KeSPA, they will have to do a very huge marketing investment so they can be trusted by the sponsors, the proplayers, the fans, the broadcasting teams and all those intangible atributes that KeSPA have been building for years.
But our best bet if KeSPA dies is to have one of their members to create a new organization to work in cooperation with blizzard so this "new kespa" can be trusted by the consumers/providers/shareholders.
On May 06 2010 08:15 Yurebis wrote: And I think you have a serious misconception on who ultimately controls esports. If every fan would be sick of SC and wanted to see SC2 matches, who would buckle? The fans, having to put up with the KeSPA's BW? Or would they just leave, "forcing" KeSPA to start including SC2 (be it with Blizzards' approval or not)?
I don't doubt for a second that all those oh soh powerful corporations would be the first to buckle, because their interest is in advertising, which in turn, depends on the fans interest. If the fans want SC2, they better deliver SC2, or suffer losses.
Thank you for explaining to me what KeSPA is, but I'm doubtful that it such an united corporate front as you pose it to be. Corporations only have profit as their goal, right? An alliance is only a circumstantial means to get to the costumers what the costumers want (conversely, to get $$$ from them). Whenever the fans want something else, they'll break.
KeSPA will no doubt include SC2 tournaments right alongside its BW tournaments once SC2 is released. It's not even a question. The only question that exists is what part Blizzard will play (if any) in the Korean eSports scene and that's what this entire debate is about. Where on earth did you get the impression that KeSPA was only interested in keeping BW alive while killing of SC2?
KeSPA is a completely united front right now because they realize that there is power in unity. The only way Blizzard gets a 1-up here is if it somehow gets KeSPA to break apart and begin infighting. This simply will not happen because there is nothing Blizzard can offer that KeSPA does not already have access to. My entire point really is that there is no need for KeSPA as it stands right now to buckle or give into anything because they are fully capable of delivering what the fans want be it SC:BW or SC2 without any need for Blizzard in the equation.
The scenario you're arguing is if somehow KeSPA doesn't offer SC2 and someone else does. This is a completely unrealistic scenario simply because there's absolutely no reason why KeSPA cannot or will not create its own SC2 league... I don't think there's anyone arguing anything at all under that premise.
____________
On May 06 2010 08:24 Longshank wrote: Sorry I was gonna leave this thread but I just had to reply to this nonsense.
"Blizzard has absolutely no leverage in Korea at all"? How about complete and absolute rights to Starcraft 2, a game Kespa would be hard pressed to survive without?
You should rather ask what leverage Kespa got on Blizzard. Even without a Korean Proleague, SC2 will still sell loads and loads of copies in Korea, there will be a pro-scene much like WC3(lots of players are already leaving Kespa in order to be allowed to play SC2). It would be unfortunate but on a global scale not a big deal, nothing they'd ever give in to Kespa for at this point.
WC3 failed in Korea because of the map scandal. After this, Korean players were forced to look for competition in the international community since WC3 died as a major eSport in SK.
Blizzard has no leverage because in Korea if you buy a legal copy of the game, you are given the right to broadcast it. There's no way for Blizzard to stop KeSPA from creating and broadcasting their own SC2 league in Korea. So again, Blizzard has absolutely no leverage within the international boundaries of Korea in regard to this situation simply because the laws regarding intellectual property are not the same as a country such as the United States. You have to stop thinking of intellectual property rights as a foregone conclusion in order to understand the business maneuvering that's going on here...
Please understand that I'm being very specific and talking about only Korea here. Of course if it turns out that the international pro-scene becomes stronger than the Korean pro-scene, Blizzard will then have some leverage assuming that they are in control of the international scene. But this is something that only time will tell and also the reason I feel Blizzard should focus on this instead of trying to get KeSPA to roll over..
Sorry I was gonna leave this thread but I just had to reply to this nonsense.
"Blizzard has absolutely no leverage in Korea at all"? How about complete and absolute rights to Starcraft 2, a game Kespa would be hard pressed to survive without?
You should rather ask what leverage Kespa got on Blizzard. Even without a Korean Proleague, SC2 will still sell loads and loads of copies in Korea, there will be a pro-scene much like WC3(lots of players are already leaving Kespa in order to be allowed to play SC2). It would be unfortunate but on a global scale not a big deal, nothing they'd ever give in to Kespa for at this point.
KESPA has the power to block SC2 from distributing in Korea, to be more specific, they can influence the game rating board to give SC2 an adult only rating(19+). Blizzard is currently on its 3rd attempts to appeal that decision.
I think way too many people here are looking at this situation a bit simplistically. You can't just eliminate KeSPA because of the nature of KeSPA and how the member corporations relate to each other and the Korean business community. Large corporations in Korea hold much more sway in the political field than corporations in countries like the US so you can't look at it so simply by saying "Well Blizzard has intellectual property rights." or something like that. Intellectual property rights are not universal nor do they matter when they cannot be enforced.
Any illusion that Blizzard has some sort of voice or power here can immediately be discarded when you stop and actually consider realistic scenarios and consequences. For better or worse, KeSPA is here to stay as the dominant entity in the Korean eSports world. That's just fact... What happens outside of Korea? Only God knows... but any logical person will tell you that in Korea, KeSPA > Blizzard by a very, very large margin.
On May 06 2010 08:52 Gtks wrote: JinMaikeul the only strong card Blizzard has to stop the production of BW nothing else.
NO dvd on the market you can't play all of them will be forced to move in SC2 you like it or NOT. and the FUNS will be teached to love the new game.
So whats the point of speacking about fronts ? Samsung is inside Trilateral but they will take no action couse they really don't give a shit.
You are good i like you learn to give the sort version of thinks is better.
Well BW is a slowly dying game in Korea at this point. I doubt Blizzard stopping production of BW will do anything considering most of the serious gaming is done on private servers, requiring no CD key. So as long as the game can be downloaded it can stay alive...
If Blizzard really wanted to go extreme, I suppose they could IP block all of Korea or isolate Korea into its own region, thereby cutting off Korea from the international community. I highly doubt they would do something along these lines, though, simply because it wouldn't only be negative for Koreans, but for the whole community... Truth be told, Blizzard doesn't really have a whole lot of options aside from just taking royalties from KeSPA and being content with not having a say or owning everything KeSPA does or makes...
There is no action in Europe and Usa regions so Blizzard will try to unite all regions the koreans are safe. I don't like sc2 couse they developed big graffics animated nooncens and you missing the real action.
I gave to a Frient of mine a Flash VOD to see and he was begging me for more finaly i gave him the link of Team liquit web side ccouse Blizzards web site sucks.
The truth is i don't take the 'nagotians' seriously Flash is having heavy schedule Blizzard is better to shut the fuck up until he finish and then will see.
I have to say, I am astonished at how some people are taking a "Blizzard can just erase Kespa with a thought" mentality, coupled by "they will just run their own SC2 stuff in Korea." .
eSports is an industry much like any industry and requires a investment in infrastructure and at the foundation of that infrastructure is Media. esports .... ALL major sports are powered and funded by the media in one way or another.
Sponsors don't pay to be associated with the players for the piddly 300 or even thousands of people watching live, they pay to have a potential access to 50 million people in Korea with television access. They pay good money too.
I don't think most people are grasping the gravity of the situation, because Kespa is made up of OnGameNet and MBC, Korea's major cable owners. Korea is not the United states where if Fox says no you can just turn around and say NBC here you go. If either are not appeased they just won't allow broadcasting and less you forget ... Broadcasting is what made SK esports what is today.
Don't make any mistake , if Blizzard fails to get Kespa to see eye to eye with them , they won't propel esports in Korea. Why would they? They arn't a marketing company, nor are they a broadcasting company. Blizzard makes VERY good games... thats what they are good at, why would they try to do something haphazard oversees and run the risk of loosing money... their stakeholders would fire their CEO if it failed.
If Blizzard saw what Korea was doing and thought "hey we don't really need you, we'll just replicate what your doing and displace you" , they could of mimic'd it here in North America (which is 4 times the potential market size of Korea) and just made it rich and be done with it, and begin plans to invade Korea markets. But thats not how the magic works... you need a media infrastructure to be able to execute something like that. That kind of opportunity would of only been available before the pre-activision merger when vivendi universal still had a stake in vivendi games..
Blizzard (activision) is not God and far from the acquisition power of something of the likes of say.. Google who if was putt in the situation I would agree that chances of them investing and just dusting Kespa away would be high.
Blizzard would be hard pressed to convince their stakeholders to create a television company from scratch over in Korea, seeing as its totally off the beaten track of their portfolio. GOMTV was a convenient backdoor seeing as GOMTV isn't traditional media base but new media based only using the GOM player which has a penetration of 8.4 million users in SK (wikipedia), made sense and I am sure Kespa saw this as a great way for blizzard to operate a shadow operation.
Do not delude yourself to think that Blizzard will a) setup shop in Korea , or B) bypass Kespa through any other means. Blizzard isn't taking the situation lightly, because the sales blackout in Korea to their stakeholder is the equivalence of being barred from selling ice cream to dessert folk.
BUT if their terms for them to acquire an overseas asset (yes, this is what they want, an asset to be able to make money with out putting no more resources than the cost of the paper the contract is written on) are not met, they will focus on other markets primarily their Canadian, U.S and European markets with population and market size towering over SK. Because for them to go over to Korea and operate anything will require them to invest their resources... resources which could be spent doing what? Thats right making VERY good games... which doesn't come cheap.
Please don't make things up, you'll start rumors. The South Korean government does not back KeSPA in any substantial manner and the South Korean national sport is Tae Kwon Do.
If Blizz is so sure that Kespa is violating their IP rights, why not just sue them ? I'm pretty sure Korean court will back Kespa and Blizz will get nothing except the loyalties. The point is, no government will allow a foreign company to control most aspects of their country's popular sport, there is so much at risk if you let this thing happens : the power to broadcast/stop broadcast the sport (which can affect the population), to create idols, to change public opinions, to monopoly an economy domain... If e-sport is to be continued in Korea, it will be controlled by a Korean organization, if they are to accept foreign control they will only subdue to a bigger international association of e-sport (like FIFA of foorball), not a game company !
Blizz should just get the loyalties and focus on the international scene, where SC is still not classified as a sport (which means Blizz can monopoly everything), but when the game evolve into a popular sport governments will take over (even in Europe or the US).
There are some pretty ridiculous things thrown down in this thread.
My opinion is that Kespa doesn't have two legs to stand on. Kespa has limited options and they are missing out BIG on Starcraft 2. Starcraft has become so popular in South Korea, its amazing. It's thanks to coverage before Kespa, Kespa, the leagues, the broadcasting, the teams, the players and the fans. Kespa to me is turning its back on all of those by being stubborn and inflexible. Kespa needs to work with Blizzard. The free publicity and marketing they give to Blizzard games is a fine argument UNTIL the moment they started making substantial amounts of money off it, which changes the terms aka you need to pay royalties and work out terms with blizzard especially because you are broadcasting on television.
It is a mystery to me why people support Kespa. They're acting like a bunch of thugs. Strong-arming the GOMTV tourney, a massive sports fixing gambling scandal, influencing the government to rate Starcraft 18+ (Are you freaking serious? South Korea made Oldboy, which makes Starcraft look like LEGOs) and other scandals.
I disagree with idea Kespa is some kind of united corporate, broadcasting, team, player, sponsor front. Staples Corp. doesn't own the Los Angeles Lakers just because they play in the Staples Center for jimmys sake. Yeah real UNITED players leak their own team's replays to the other UNITED teams and secretly fix matches for money. Broadcasters, which are supposed to be united in Kespa torpedo GOMTVs tournament. The players and the fans deserve the most credit. A worst case scenario would be if there is some kind of Starcraft II season lockout. What Kespa does is highly overrated. It is more culture within south korea, the great fans and players that drive competitive e-sports. To me it is Kespa being stubborn because they want the same rights as they did with Starcraft, which was pretty much free reign, which is unfair to Blizzard.
Blizzard wants control of their intellectual property. They don't want their game being attached with the stigma of stupid scandals. All of us would be just as frustrated if someone took our creation and ran away with it and demanded to run away with part 2 or else.
Kespa stands to lose a lot more from this than Blizzard does, and they can pretend and delude themselves all they want, but they're hurting themselves, esports and fans. I don't think Blizzard want to do Kespas job, just more transparency and regulation on what broadcasters can do with Starcraft 2. If either side goes to extremes, the most damaging thing they can do, I think Kespa has showed its hand, the crap they do and is harming fans.
Please don't make things up, you'll start rumors. The South Korean government does not back KeSPA in any substantial manner and the South Korean national sport is Tae Kwon Do.
If Blizz is so sure that Kespa is violating their IP rights, why not just sue them ? I'm pretty sure Korean court will back Kespa and Blizz will get nothing except the loyalties. The point is, no government will allow a foreign company to control most aspects of their country's popular sport, there is so much at risk if you let this thing happens : the power to broadcast/stop broadcast the sport (which can affect the population), to create idols, to change public opinions, to monopoly an economy domain... If e-sport is to be continued in Korea, it will be controlled by a Korean organization, if they are to accept foreign control they will only subdue to a bigger international association of e-sport (like FIFA of foorball), not a game company !
Blizz should just get the loyalties and focus on the international scene, where SC is still not classified as a sport (which means Blizz can monopoly everything), but when the game evolve into a popular sport governments will take over (even in Europe or the US).
They can't just sue them because , the laws run different from country to country (this was mentioned in several above posts) . Blizzard can't just go around conquering esports... because Blizzard isn't a League lol, its a developer. If they could develop a league at the drop of a hat I am sure they would of told MLG "no" to using WoW their most successful franchise.
Blizzard could probably get around the rating by doing what other games have done in the past, removing blood from the game and changing the death animations to units fading out or something. If the rating board is specific about what they have problems with. But this would HAVE to be for only the korean version because if they do it to my version I will start lobbying for a full US withdrawl from S. Korea so N. Korea is free to begin shelling.
What does Sc2 have that is more graphic than this?
It is a mystery to me why people support Kespa. They're acting like a bunch of thugs. Strong-arming the GOMTV tourney, a massive sports fixing gambling scandal, influencing the government to rate Starcraft 18+ (Are you freaking serious? South Korea made Oldboy, which makes Starcraft look like LEGOs) and other scandals.
I
I actually admired those moves they did, They are fighting over a game called Starcraft, a strategy game, I think it would be silly if either side didn't use cut throat tactics to get what they wanted.
Blizzard moved their queen(removing Lan) killing Kespa's rook and Kespa used their bishop to destroy blizzard's Pawn (GomTV)
On May 06 2010 08:15 Yurebis wrote: And I think you have a serious misconception on who ultimately controls esports. If every fan would be sick of SC and wanted to see SC2 matches, who would buckle? The fans, having to put up with the KeSPA's BW? Or would they just leave, "forcing" KeSPA to start including SC2 (be it with Blizzards' approval or not)?
I don't doubt for a second that all those oh soh powerful corporations would be the first to buckle, because their interest is in advertising, which in turn, depends on the fans interest. If the fans want SC2, they better deliver SC2, or suffer losses.
Thank you for explaining to me what KeSPA is, but I'm doubtful that it such an united corporate front as you pose it to be. Corporations only have profit as their goal, right? An alliance is only a circumstantial means to get to the costumers what the costumers want (conversely, to get $$$ from them). Whenever the fans want something else, they'll break.
KeSPA will no doubt include SC2 tournaments right alongside its BW tournaments once SC2 is released. It's not even a question. The only question that exists is what part Blizzard will play (if any) in the Korean eSports scene and that's what this entire debate is about. Where on earth did you get the impression that KeSPA was only interested in keeping BW alive while killing of SC2?
[snip]
Blizzard has no leverage because in Korea if you buy a legal copy of the game, you are given the right to broadcast it. There's no way for Blizzard to stop KeSPA from creating and broadcasting their own SC2 league in Korea. So again, Blizzard has absolutely no leverage within the international boundaries of Korea in regard to this situation simply because the laws regarding intellectual property are not the same as a country such as the United States. You have to stop thinking of intellectual property rights as a foregone conclusion in order to understand the business maneuvering that's going on here...
Please understand that I'm being very specific and talking about only Korea here. Of course if it turns out that the international pro-scene becomes stronger than the Korean pro-scene, Blizzard will then have some leverage assuming that they are in control of the international scene. But this is something that only time will tell and also the reason I feel Blizzard should focus on this instead of trying to get KeSPA to roll over..
How about shutting down the KeSPA proleague games? Whenever KeSPA is playing a game, broadcasted or not you know, just drop them. Should be fun to be a blizz employee then, playing whack-a-mole against KeSPA. Is that enough leverage? Would the koreans still be able to play and broadcast games then?
They would need to use cracks... All pro teams and players, referees, all broadcasting channels and even the poor observers, would have to use a cracked version of SC2, on plain sight, hell, on TV even. The government would have to turn a blind eye to it all. Would KeSPA, no the Korean Government look good, by allowing such a massive use of a cracked piece of software? It wouldn't be just about broadcasting anymore, it would mean no software vendor would be safe in korea anymore. If the government is to allow KeSPA and related individuals to run a cracked SC2, then why not allow everyone to run any type of pirated software? The software industry would instantly tank as a whole. Every vendor is going to be out of SK overnight.
If KeSPA wants to play dirty, then the whole Korean Government will have to back it up. And then everyone's going to get dirty along with it. I don't think they want that to happen, unless they're fine with losing a whole industry just to play SC2 of course.
So you see, Blizzard does knows what it's doing and yes, they do have leverage. KeSPA will either come to agreements with Blizzard, or they'll stay with Broodwar (and shortly die?). I don't see it any other way. Is there any way for KeSPA to circumvent Blizzards' servers without causing a software IP rights meltdown in Korea? If not, then it's a no-go.
I know it's farfetched but, what if Blizzard decided to delay Starcraft 2's release in Korea because of the rating issue? I realize they would never do this because they would lose money but let's face it, they have WoW so they are set for a loooong time. I think the delay would be a big blow to KeSPA, much more so than to Blizzard (because, let's face it, people would buy it afterwards anyway). I can't imagine any fan would be too happy about the delay and Blizzard could easily divert the blame to KeSPA and the rating.
And like some others have also pointed out, having no LAN gives Blizzard all the leverage they need in this case.
I don't know much about the Korean eSports scene but I'm pretty sure Blizzard has thought this through. And since it's their game, all the cards are in their hand (IE no LAN; I'm sure they had their lawyers ready with whatever comes next before they announced the release date as well).
Blizzard's business point of view on e-sports in Korea is that SC2 will never be big if BW is still alive. By allowing Blizzard to take control of KeSPA, they will destroy the BW scene to pave way for SC2. Blizzard's only interest in controlling KeSPA is not interest in what KeSPA does with BW. If Blizzard really does care, they would not only now came up with these unacceptable terms to KeSPA. Only at this convenient time where SC2 is looming around the corner, they decide to try to stick their hands into KeSPA to try to kill BW so they can make money off SC2.
Fuck you Blizzard, stay away from my Pro SC:BW. Keep your piece of shit SC2 to yourself, I will never support SC2.
Did I miss where everyone came to the agreement that SC2 will just replace BW and that KeSPA is screwed without it? This ridiculous assumption has been around since SC2 was released, and you'd think with the state of the game as it is right now in beta, it would actually have less merit than it does!
You guys can speculate all you want about things like this, but BW is still as exciting as ever in Korea. Acting like KeSPA is 'dead' if they don't get rights to do what they want with SC2 is just crazy.
On May 06 2010 08:15 Yurebis wrote: And I think you have a serious misconception on who ultimately controls esports. If every fan would be sick of SC and wanted to see SC2 matches, who would buckle? The fans, having to put up with the KeSPA's BW? Or would they just leave, "forcing" KeSPA to start including SC2 (be it with Blizzards' approval or not)?
I don't doubt for a second that all those oh soh powerful corporations would be the first to buckle, because their interest is in advertising, which in turn, depends on the fans interest. If the fans want SC2, they better deliver SC2, or suffer losses.
Thank you for explaining to me what KeSPA is, but I'm doubtful that it such an united corporate front as you pose it to be. Corporations only have profit as their goal, right? An alliance is only a circumstantial means to get to the costumers what the costumers want (conversely, to get $$$ from them). Whenever the fans want something else, they'll break.
KeSPA will no doubt include SC2 tournaments right alongside its BW tournaments once SC2 is released. It's not even a question. The only question that exists is what part Blizzard will play (if any) in the Korean eSports scene and that's what this entire debate is about. Where on earth did you get the impression that KeSPA was only interested in keeping BW alive while killing of SC2?
[snip]
Blizzard has no leverage because in Korea if you buy a legal copy of the game, you are given the right to broadcast it. There's no way for Blizzard to stop KeSPA from creating and broadcasting their own SC2 league in Korea. So again, Blizzard has absolutely no leverage within the international boundaries of Korea in regard to this situation simply because the laws regarding intellectual property are not the same as a country such as the United States. You have to stop thinking of intellectual property rights as a foregone conclusion in order to understand the business maneuvering that's going on here...
Please understand that I'm being very specific and talking about only Korea here. Of course if it turns out that the international pro-scene becomes stronger than the Korean pro-scene, Blizzard will then have some leverage assuming that they are in control of the international scene. But this is something that only time will tell and also the reason I feel Blizzard should focus on this instead of trying to get KeSPA to roll over..
They would need to use cracks... All pro teams and players, referees, all broadcasting channels and even the poor observers, would have to use a cracked version of SC2, on plain sight, hell, on TV even. The government would have to turn a blind eye to it all. Would KeSPA, no the Korean Government look good, by allowing such a massive use of a cracked piece of software? It wouldn't be just about broadcasting anymore, it would mean no software vendor would be safe in korea anymore. If the government is to allow KeSPA and related individuals to run a cracked SC2, then why not allow everyone to run any type of pirated software? The software industry would instantly tank as a whole. Every vendor is going to be out of SK overnight.
Do you watch professional Brood War? They already use hacks. They display real-time resource and unit statistics in the bottom left (on at least one of the channels - can't recall atm). Unlike the software TL uses for their broadcast replays, this is done live, so it cannot be done without some sort of hack.
It is a mystery to me why people support Kespa. They're acting like a bunch of thugs. Strong-arming the GOMTV tourney, a massive sports fixing gambling scandal, influencing the government to rate Starcraft 18+ (Are you freaking serious? South Korea made Oldboy, which makes Starcraft look like LEGOs) and other scandals.
I do because, in my eyes, Kespa is the lesser of the two evils.
On May 06 2010 11:15 QibingZero wrote: Did I miss where everyone came to the agreement that SC2 will just replace BW and that KeSPA is screwed without it? This ridiculous assumption has been around since SC2 was released, and you'd think with the state of the game as it is right now in beta, it would actually have less merit than it does!
You guys can speculate all you want about things like this, but BW is still as exciting as ever in Korea. Acting like KeSPA is 'dead' if they don't get rights to do what they want with SC2 is just crazy.
On May 06 2010 08:15 Yurebis wrote: And I think you have a serious misconception on who ultimately controls esports. If every fan would be sick of SC and wanted to see SC2 matches, who would buckle? The fans, having to put up with the KeSPA's BW? Or would they just leave, "forcing" KeSPA to start including SC2 (be it with Blizzards' approval or not)?
I don't doubt for a second that all those oh soh powerful corporations would be the first to buckle, because their interest is in advertising, which in turn, depends on the fans interest. If the fans want SC2, they better deliver SC2, or suffer losses.
Thank you for explaining to me what KeSPA is, but I'm doubtful that it such an united corporate front as you pose it to be. Corporations only have profit as their goal, right? An alliance is only a circumstantial means to get to the costumers what the costumers want (conversely, to get $$$ from them). Whenever the fans want something else, they'll break.
KeSPA will no doubt include SC2 tournaments right alongside its BW tournaments once SC2 is released. It's not even a question. The only question that exists is what part Blizzard will play (if any) in the Korean eSports scene and that's what this entire debate is about. Where on earth did you get the impression that KeSPA was only interested in keeping BW alive while killing of SC2?
[snip]
Blizzard has no leverage because in Korea if you buy a legal copy of the game, you are given the right to broadcast it. There's no way for Blizzard to stop KeSPA from creating and broadcasting their own SC2 league in Korea. So again, Blizzard has absolutely no leverage within the international boundaries of Korea in regard to this situation simply because the laws regarding intellectual property are not the same as a country such as the United States. You have to stop thinking of intellectual property rights as a foregone conclusion in order to understand the business maneuvering that's going on here...
Please understand that I'm being very specific and talking about only Korea here. Of course if it turns out that the international pro-scene becomes stronger than the Korean pro-scene, Blizzard will then have some leverage assuming that they are in control of the international scene. But this is something that only time will tell and also the reason I feel Blizzard should focus on this instead of trying to get KeSPA to roll over..
They would need to use cracks... All pro teams and players, referees, all broadcasting channels and even the poor observers, would have to use a cracked version of SC2, on plain sight, hell, on TV even. The government would have to turn a blind eye to it all. Would KeSPA, no the Korean Government look good, by allowing such a massive use of a cracked piece of software? It wouldn't be just about broadcasting anymore, it would mean no software vendor would be safe in korea anymore. If the government is to allow KeSPA and related individuals to run a cracked SC2, then why not allow everyone to run any type of pirated software? The software industry would instantly tank as a whole. Every vendor is going to be out of SK overnight.
Do you watch professional Brood War? They already use hacks. They display real-time resource and unit statistics in the bottom left (on at least one of the channels - can't recall atm). Unlike the software TL uses for their broadcast replays, this is done live, so it cannot be done without some sort of hack.
But at least that's not modifying the game memory, it's just reading it.
Now if the korean government turns a blind eye to a crack that totally modifies the game to circumvent all the battle.net checks, its obvious that any software engineer working or selling in korea is going to be doubtful of the korean government's ability in subduing pirates and securing his profit.
Would microsoft want to sell windows in such a place for example?
On May 06 2010 08:15 Yurebis wrote: And I think you have a serious misconception on who ultimately controls esports. If every fan would be sick of SC and wanted to see SC2 matches, who would buckle? The fans, having to put up with the KeSPA's BW? Or would they just leave, "forcing" KeSPA to start including SC2 (be it with Blizzards' approval or not)?
I don't doubt for a second that all those oh soh powerful corporations would be the first to buckle, because their interest is in advertising, which in turn, depends on the fans interest. If the fans want SC2, they better deliver SC2, or suffer losses.
Thank you for explaining to me what KeSPA is, but I'm doubtful that it such an united corporate front as you pose it to be. Corporations only have profit as their goal, right? An alliance is only a circumstantial means to get to the costumers what the costumers want (conversely, to get $$$ from them). Whenever the fans want something else, they'll break.
KeSPA will no doubt include SC2 tournaments right alongside its BW tournaments once SC2 is released. It's not even a question. The only question that exists is what part Blizzard will play (if any) in the Korean eSports scene and that's what this entire debate is about. Where on earth did you get the impression that KeSPA was only interested in keeping BW alive while killing of SC2?
[snip]
Blizzard has no leverage because in Korea if you buy a legal copy of the game, you are given the right to broadcast it. There's no way for Blizzard to stop KeSPA from creating and broadcasting their own SC2 league in Korea. So again, Blizzard has absolutely no leverage within the international boundaries of Korea in regard to this situation simply because the laws regarding intellectual property are not the same as a country such as the United States. You have to stop thinking of intellectual property rights as a foregone conclusion in order to understand the business maneuvering that's going on here...
Please understand that I'm being very specific and talking about only Korea here. Of course if it turns out that the international pro-scene becomes stronger than the Korean pro-scene, Blizzard will then have some leverage assuming that they are in control of the international scene. But this is something that only time will tell and also the reason I feel Blizzard should focus on this instead of trying to get KeSPA to roll over..
They would need to use cracks... All pro teams and players, referees, all broadcasting channels and even the poor observers, would have to use a cracked version of SC2, on plain sight, hell, on TV even. The government would have to turn a blind eye to it all. Would KeSPA, no the Korean Government look good, by allowing such a massive use of a cracked piece of software? It wouldn't be just about broadcasting anymore, it would mean no software vendor would be safe in korea anymore. If the government is to allow KeSPA and related individuals to run a cracked SC2, then why not allow everyone to run any type of pirated software? The software industry would instantly tank as a whole. Every vendor is going to be out of SK overnight.
Do you watch professional Brood War? They already use hacks. They display real-time resource and unit statistics in the bottom left (on at least one of the channels - can't recall atm). Unlike the software TL uses for their broadcast replays, this is done live, so it cannot be done without some sort of hack.
There is a glaring distinction to be made between a) modifying a game (a new game at that) to allow it to be played in direct contrast to the way in which it was intentionally designed (ie. playing SC2 OFF bnet 2.0) to allow you to make a profit and b) slightly modifying an old game that does not present any visual aids to improve viewer knowledge in a game which you already broadcast. No?
It is a mystery to me why people support Kespa. They're acting like a bunch of thugs. Strong-arming the GOMTV tourney, a massive sports fixing gambling scandal, influencing the government to rate Starcraft 18+ (Are you freaking serious? South Korea made Oldboy, which makes Starcraft look like LEGOs) and other scandals.
I
I actually admired those moves they did, They are fighting over a game called Starcraft, a strategy game, I think it would be silly if either side didn't use cut throat tactics to get what they wanted.
Blizzard moved their queen(removing Lan) killing Kespa's rook and Kespa used their bishop to destroy blizzard's Pawn (GomTV)
I think its funny that you think government corruption and these kind of tactics in a business is admirable. Let's give overlords a new ability: Bribe Flash an extra $500 to lose that will balance sc:bw. Your a cool organization Kespa!
It is a mystery to me why people support Kespa. They're acting like a bunch of thugs. Strong-arming the GOMTV tourney, a massive sports fixing gambling scandal, influencing the government to rate Starcraft 18+ (Are you freaking serious? South Korea made Oldboy, which makes Starcraft look like LEGOs) and other scandals.
I do because, in my eyes, Kespa is the lesser of the two evils.
It is a mystery to me why people support Kespa. They're acting like a bunch of thugs. Strong-arming the GOMTV tourney, a massive sports fixing gambling scandal, influencing the government to rate Starcraft 18+ (Are you freaking serious? South Korea made Oldboy, which makes Starcraft look like LEGOs) and other scandals.
I do because, in my eyes, Kespa is the lesser of the two evils.
Can you please state your reasons?
read my previous comments, then come back User was warned for this post.
It is a mystery to me why people support Kespa. They're acting like a bunch of thugs. Strong-arming the GOMTV tourney, a massive sports fixing gambling scandal, influencing the government to rate Starcraft 18+ (Are you freaking serious? South Korea made Oldboy, which makes Starcraft look like LEGOs) and other scandals.
I do because, in my eyes, Kespa is the lesser of the two evils.
Can you please state your reasons?
read my previous comments, then come back
Ok, I think enough people already refuted your posts and you make some wild claims.
On May 06 2010 13:00 GiantEnemyCrab wrote: if i was working blizzard i would rage kespa using blizzard products for profits fuck kespa stfu and pay ur royalties
And according to KeSPA's official statement, they're willing to do just that.
KeSPA has expressed its position of being willing to pay for a rational level of usage fee and appeal its support of marketing and promotion for product line-up of Blizzard with continuous investment such as sharing all contents which belong to KeSPA like pro gamers, broadcasting and sponsorship.
The problem is, how much? There is no precedent, no clear case of what Blizzard is entitled to. KeSPA disagreed with how much they owed Blizzard, and broke off negotiation, and Blizzard can't do anything about it because there's nothing was established prior to the popularization game spectating.
I have a feeling that a SC2 UMS will be more popular than the game itself.
What a bunch of garbage some of you are spewing out. What in the world makes you think that just because it's SC2, it's going to be a success as big as sc:bw? Come on. Are you really that naive? sc:bw has had major time to develop and it did only flourish when Blizzard wasn't there to mess up things. If I recall the pro scene in Korea wasn't that big until 99-00? and blizzard stop major balances what? 03-04? The game has evolved without Blizzard and it should be that way. You don't abandon your child just to take it back when it's all grown up and making money.
I found it funny how KeSPA kept using the words "for eSport fans" in their latest official statements (while never mention it in statements during broadcasting controversies and Free Agents). Also how KeSPA sent it to foreign esport sites to win our support - they seem to finally realize the existence of a foreign community.
Since I work in the TV industry let me give the television point of view.
From the television point of view, some of Blizzard's demands are reasonable. They may not sound reasonable the way they've been phrased, but they are definitely the starting point for any Starcraft tournament.
1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year
Standard practice is that you do not sign a contract that allows anyone to broadcast anything forever. If you want to do a documentary on, say, the Kennedy assasination, you negotiate to use the footage you want for a certain period, usually between 5 and 7 years. The longer you use it for, the greater the cost.
However, a one year contract is indeed too short because it is difficult to invest in infrastructure, marketing and so on when the league is a short term thing.
2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan
This definitely makes sense. Blizzard needs to make sure nothing goes against the image of their game. Remember the photo of Savior doing the Nazi salute? Blizzard would not want that put on a poster.
This is usually a formality. Nearly all such contracts will have it, but it rarely causes conflict. it's quite reasonable.
3. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement
This is also reasonable. Countries fork out millions to host the F1. Stations bid to show Manny Pacquiao fight live. Blizzard can either charge a high license fee and not take sponsorship money, or no license fee and take sponsorship money, or something in between.
As a concept, there's nothing wrong with this.
4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos
Now this is unfair, since this would make it impossible for channels to do repeat broadcasts of the games and market VODs. One way around it would be for ownership to rest with Blizzard, but for Blizzard to sign a separate agreement that leases the games in perpetuity to the channels at a nominal fee.
Alternatively, let the ownership rest with Kespa or the channelsin Korea, but allow Blizzard to own rights to the games outside Korea.
5. Right to audit KeSPA
If Blizzard is taking a percentage of sponsorship money from Kespa, they will need to audit them. Probably not the entire company, though.
On May 06 2010 14:08 The Storyteller wrote: Since I work in the TV industry let me give the television point of view.
From the television point of view, some of Blizzard's demands are reasonable. They may not sound reasonable the way they've been phrased, but they are definitely the starting point for any Starcraft tournament.
1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year
Standard practice is that you do not sign a contract that allows anyone to broadcast anything forever. If you want to do a documentary on, say, the Kennedy assasination, you negotiate to use the footage you want for a certain period, usually between 5 and 7 years. The longer you use it for, the greater the cost.
However, a one year contract is indeed too short because it is difficult to invest in infrastructure, marketing and so on when the league is a short term thing.
2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan
This definitely makes sense. Blizzard needs to make sure nothing goes against the image of their game. Remember the photo of Savior doing the Nazi salute? Blizzard would not want that put on a poster.
This is usually a formality. Nearly all such contracts will have it, but it rarely causes conflict. it's quite reasonable.
3. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement
This is also reasonable. Countries fork out millions to host the F1. Stations bid to show Manny Pacquiao fight live. Blizzard can either charge a high license fee and not take sponsorship money, or no license fee and take sponsorship money, or something in between.
As a concept, there's nothing wrong with this.
4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos
Now this is unfair, since this would make it impossible for channels to do repeat broadcasts of the games and market VODs. One way around it would be for ownership to rest with Blizzard, but for Blizzard to sign a separate agreement that leases the games in perpetuity to the channels at a nominal fee.
Alternatively, let the ownership rest with Kespa or the channelsin Korea, but allow Blizzard to own rights to the games outside Korea.
5. Right to audit KeSPA
If Blizzard is taking a percentage of sponsorship money from Kespa, they will need to audit them. Probably not the entire company, though.
Awesome post Storyteller. thanks for the insights!
On May 06 2010 10:45 Yurebis wrote: They would need to use cracks... All pro teams and players, referees, all broadcasting channels and even the poor observers, would have to use a cracked version of SC2, on plain sight, hell, on TV even. The government would have to turn a blind eye to it all. Would KeSPA, no the Korean Government look good, by allowing such a massive use of a cracked piece of software? It wouldn't be just about broadcasting anymore, it would mean no software vendor would be safe in korea anymore. If the government is to allow KeSPA and related individuals to run a cracked SC2, then why not allow everyone to run any type of pirated software? The software industry would instantly tank as a whole. Every vendor is going to be out of SK overnight.
Uhh do you know how widespread piracy already is in SK and other parts of Asia?
At the moment this sounds like the blizzard powerhouse it has become just wants to take over basically and in the light of recent blizzard activities this does not come over as something that couldn't be true.
On May 06 2010 14:08 The Storyteller wrote: Since I work in the TV industry let me give the television point of view.
From the television point of view, some of Blizzard's demands are reasonable. They may not sound reasonable the way they've been phrased, but they are definitely the starting point for any Starcraft tournament.
1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year
Standard practice is that you do not sign a contract that allows anyone to broadcast anything forever. If you want to do a documentary on, say, the Kennedy assasination, you negotiate to use the footage you want for a certain period, usually between 5 and 7 years. The longer you use it for, the greater the cost.
However, a one year contract is indeed too short because it is difficult to invest in infrastructure, marketing and so on when the league is a short term thing.
2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan
This definitely makes sense. Blizzard needs to make sure nothing goes against the image of their game. Remember the photo of Savior doing the Nazi salute? Blizzard would not want that put on a poster.
This is usually a formality. Nearly all such contracts will have it, but it rarely causes conflict. it's quite reasonable.
3. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement
This is also reasonable. Countries fork out millions to host the F1. Stations bid to show Manny Pacquiao fight live. Blizzard can either charge a high license fee and not take sponsorship money, or no license fee and take sponsorship money, or something in between.
As a concept, there's nothing wrong with this.
4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos
Now this is unfair, since this would make it impossible for channels to do repeat broadcasts of the games and market VODs. One way around it would be for ownership to rest with Blizzard, but for Blizzard to sign a separate agreement that leases the games in perpetuity to the channels at a nominal fee.
Alternatively, let the ownership rest with Kespa or the channelsin Korea, but allow Blizzard to own rights to the games outside Korea.
5. Right to audit KeSPA
If Blizzard is taking a percentage of sponsorship money from Kespa, they will need to audit them. Probably not the entire company, though.
But this is not just about broadcasting. If blizz was the organizer of the leagues/tournaments than it would be just about broadcasting. Here KeSPA is doing all the organizing. In that sense, no sane person would organize a league under those terms. One year contract means shit to KeSPA and especially to players and the teams. What is stopping blizz for asking unreasonable sums of money once the game becomes popular thanks to KeSPA, or killing the game after the WC4 or SC3 is released. imagine yourself spending your whole youth practicing something that might not even be there in a few years. If blizz really wants SC2 to be a professional eSport it must give up on trying to control it and let things happen it its own way. That's the only way. but I seriously doubt blizz cares about professional gaming and by professional gaming I don't mean people playing the game after they come home from their real work.
1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year
What should mean this? That the game license will last a year and after we have to pay for another game licence? This point is not clear at all.
No, it's the contract term between KeSPA and Blizzard, nothing to do with you.
It means the contract details and agreements will be set for 1 year, and must be adhered to. After 1 year either party will be allowed to change/revise the contract details. It means Blizzard, if we look at this negatively, will be allowed to increase their fees or set more conditions every year.
In my eyes Blizzard lost a lot of quality when Blizzard North left. BurningCrusade was pretty bad already don't even want to talk about Wotlk. Casual here, casual there. It's not at all the same company which made our beloved broodwar. I don't even want to get started about E-sport and Blizzard. Just leave Kespa alone Blizzard! Of course they should have the right to make some profits from the sc2 pro scene if there will be one in Korea. But they shouldn't be controlling all aspects of the sc2 esport.
Kespa will fail in the end, there is nothing they can do about SC2. If Blizzard puts in a rule that forbids anyone to broadcast SC2 without their approval it's gg Kespa. No one can do anything about it. As for SC1 things are much more complicated.
On May 06 2010 22:14 fallingdream wrote: Kespa will fail in the end, there is nothing they can do about SC2. If Blizzard puts in a rule that forbids anyone to broadcast SC2 without their approval it's gg Kespa. No one can do anything about it. As for SC1 things are much more complicated.
Assuming SC2 turns out to be a success... Atm don't find SC2 terribly exciting to spectate.
On May 06 2010 22:14 fallingdream wrote: Kespa will fail in the end, there is nothing they can do about SC2. If Blizzard puts in a rule that forbids anyone to broadcast SC2 without their approval it's gg Kespa. No one can do anything about it. As for SC1 things are much more complicated.
Assuming SC2 turns out to be a success... Atm don't find SC2 terribly exciting to spectate.
Yeah, I don't really like SC2. Teamliquid is pretty divided, and I doubt South Korea overwhelmingly wants SC2.
I've fumbled through this thread more than once to see if anyone would ever draw the correlation between organizations like the MLB and the broadcasters that carry their games. So far... none. You think CBS, etc. just get to broadcast baseball without forking over cash to the company that controls the sport?
Granted, in some cases KeSPA is similar to the both the MLB and CBS in this example; however, Bliz is entirely the MLB. If you notice, Bliz says "intellectual property rights". This doesn't strictly mean right to broadcast. Generally, it means the right use use a license and its materials in a manner that benefits the license and grows the brand. For the most part, KeSPA isn't that friendly or active here.They use what they want, in any way they want, regardless of how it benefits SC or Bliz, and they do it for free. There's no other model like this and Bliz is within their rights to be miffed about it.
People seem to want to cry foul about Bliz doing this for money, but there's to faults to this. First, really... do you really think there's that much money floating in eSports? Compared to the cash pissing cow that is WoW, the SC eSports scene isn't even 1% (given what Bliz would want in terms of license fees). The issue is how KeSPA matures the brand and grows the product, for most part, they don't.
What's more, is KeSPA has more than once tried to use the mindshare they've garnered from SC and sought to develop competing software (i.e. remove Bliz from the equation); in every turn it has failed because they lack the knowhow to pull it off. KeSPA has proven more than once their motivations are not the well-being of SC, but rather, the well being of KeSPA. However, Bliz is very vested in the well being of SC, which will in-turn, provide some well-being for Bliz (I say some because let's face it... WoW). Which do you want running the show? No brainer.
In all honesty, KeSPA refusing to budge is going to severely harm eSports. Bliz is wise to demand proper licensing and will likely hold their stance. KeSPA seems likely to fracture the community merely to spite the situation and ultimately kill everything. SC works because it has achieved a mass that can grow and sustain; if that fractures into two smaller masses (SC, SC2), then it isn't known if one can be self-sustaining like SC currently is.
On May 07 2010 01:22 sk` wrote: In all honesty, KeSPA refusing to budge is going to severely harm eSports. Bliz is wise to demand proper licensing and will likely hold their stance. KeSPA seems likely to fracture the community merely to spite the situation and ultimately kill everything. SC works because it has achieved a mass that can grow and sustain; if that fractures into two smaller masses (SC, SC2), then it isn't known if one can be self-sustaining like SC currently is.
KeSPA doesn't and can't kill everything even if they tried nor can Blizzard. KeSPA deciding not to play starcraft 2 doesn't destroy anything Blizzard not allowing KeSPA to play starcraft 2 doesn't destroy anything but I agree with the rest of your post
I do not understand why Blizzard is being so harsh. Licensing, royalties, junk. Do you pay a company every time you use a camera or editing software, besides the initial cost of the product? Why should they have to? They bought it and it is theirs. What Blizzard is trying to do is wrong.
People make money using editing software to make commercials, are you paying royalties or licensing fees? Of course not, what would be the point if there was no profit. KeSPA is constantly promoting their product and showing people (of Korea) how great it is. It's free advertising and Blizzard is blindly pushing them into something they obviously do not want to do, thus losing advertisement and fan base. If they get sponsors, great. It is because of the initial work Blizzard has done on the game, but with no one playing the game there would be no sponsors, and without that no more publicity. I can't say that Blizzard needs KeSPA, but KeSPA does in fact need Blizzard. I think this is the main cause of the problem.
You pay licensing fees for the product you use and that license defines what you can and cannot do with the product, a lot of licenses require paying more if your company's turnover exceeds X&X too. Not to mention that it's completely unrelated to the issue of IP rights and licensing of those, the art, themes and content of the game are Blizzard's property and they have the right to stop any unauthorised use of those as long as it's demonstrably theirs. Regardless of Blizzard being complete wangs who are apparently trying to take over korean progaming with the same arrogance as some of their SC2 design decisions, their rights in this case are clear and there for a reason that protects many many many companies that aren't complete wangs.
On May 07 2010 02:08 cll wrote: I can't say that Blizzard needs KeSPA, but KeSPA does in fact need Blizzard. I think this is the main cause of the problem.
Yes, starcraft being the best esports game and all.
There is no right or wrong in business however. Besides maybe pulling a gun, fraud etc.. You sign it, you right it
On May 07 2010 01:22 sk` wrote: I've fumbled through this thread more than once to see if anyone would ever draw the correlation between organizations like the MLB and the broadcasters that carry their games. So far... none. You think CBS, etc. just get to broadcast baseball without forking over cash to the company that controls the sport?
Granted, in some cases KeSPA is similar to the both the MLB and CBS in this example; however, Bliz is entirely the MLB. If you notice, Bliz says "intellectual property rights". This doesn't strictly mean right to broadcast. Generally, it means the right use use a license and its materials in a manner that benefits the license and grows the brand. For the most part, KeSPA isn't that friendly or active here.They use what they want, in any way they want, regardless of how it benefits SC or Bliz, and they do it for free. There's no other model like this and Bliz is within their rights to be miffed about it.
Don't think this correlation is suitable for Blizzard and KeSPA. Blizzard is the developer of SC software, so its rule is more like people who invented baseball. Blizzard didn't create the progamer leagues nor did Blizzard set the models for progaming tourneys in Korea. KeSPA did. I would say KeSPA's rule is more like MLB. One problem is we don't need to use special tools made and copyright owned by one company to play baseball.
KeSPA is not a TV station and it doesn't broadcast games. MBC and OGN do the broadcast. (FYI: OGN is owned by Blizzard's sub company.) KeSPA is an association represent all progame teams in Korea. It's like a labor union in legal stand.
On May 07 2010 01:22 sk` wrote: What's more, is KeSPA has more than once tried to use the mindshare they've garnered from SC and sought to develop competing software (i.e. remove Bliz from the equation); in every turn it has failed because they lack the knowhow to pull it off. KeSPA has proven more than once their motivations are not the well-being of SC, but rather, the well being of KeSPA. However, Bliz is very vested in the well being of SC, which will in-turn, provide some well-being for Bliz (I say some because let's face it... WoW). Which do you want running the show? No brainer.
In all honesty, KeSPA refusing to budge is going to severely harm eSports. Bliz is wise to demand proper licensing and will likely hold their stance. KeSPA seems likely to fracture the community merely to spite the situation and ultimately kill everything. SC works because it has achieved a mass that can grow and sustain; if that fractures into two smaller masses (SC, SC2), then it isn't known if one can be self-sustaining like SC currently is.
Don't know where you get that idea from. But KeSPA is not a software developer so they don't need to develop competing software. Though KeSPA's decisions are not always good to the e-sport, just like every government's decisions are not always good to the country. But what Blizzard care is their software products not the e-sport environment.
In Blizzard's requests, KeSPA has to agree not 1 or 2 demands but all 5 of the demands first, then Blizzard will start negation for other issues. Doesn't anyone feel strange and unfair that Blizzard demand for the Right to audit KeSPA? Usually, people audit their own companies and their sub-companies. Blizzard doesn't own KeSPA. How come KeSPA would allow this?
Blizzard has already asking license fee. It's not fair for Blizzard to also ask Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos. Blizzard create game softwares, but it didn't create the programs such as "NalrA's Oldboy" nor "Hyungjun becomes a progamer!". How about the people whose ideas create these shows?
lol all the sudden blizzard cares about broodwar they haven't done anything since they killed the ladder. Fans, Iccup, world tour, kespa etc are all that kept broodwar alive since 2003 and now its 2010 and all the sudden blizzard gives a shit lol. Blizzard shut up and go back to your sc2 and let the fans play the real game.
funny, I don't know how factual this is. This came from Mickeytoss's post on Baezzi's channel (Jon747). If this is true, you guys should stop buying whatever bs the koreans are selling.
MickeyToss (6 hours ago) Summary: Blizzard wants to get payed for having their product being used by an external company which on its own makes me money from using Blizzards product.
Kespa says "no, We do not want to pay you money or let you control the way we use your game."
Blizzard says "yes you will, otherwise you can consider the negotiations over and you will not be allowed to use starcraft to make money or create a e-sport scene around it."
Blizzard asking for more money is only gonna have negative effects on the E-sports scene. I mean even if KESPA complies, KESPA is not gonna just be idiots and make less money. They'll either make the prizes smaller, or charge admissions, or other things like that to make up for the money they'll have to give to blizzard. Which means that all the FREE SERVICE we get, like getting to watch these games for free, having TONS of fans, etc etc, will hurt first.... the OGN website is free right now to watch games online, but the MBC website already is charging money for "older" games. Since KESPA people are in no way idiots when it comes to financial business, they'll just make OGN and MBC pay them, or make the teams pay them more which eventually will end up hurting the fans. which is... all of us. That is my opinion economically... Now if you wanna ask the whole who's is "right" at first I sure as hell thought blizzard deserves a cut, in some way... but then again, KESPA does buy the game from them in the first place for as much as blizzard charges. I mean if i take C++ and make a program out of it and sell it, do I have to pay the company who made C++ money? Not really...... that's just my 2 cents....
On May 07 2010 09:05 Zeridian wrote: funny, I don't know how factual this is. This came from Mickeytoss's post on Baezzi's channel (Jon747). If this is true, you guys should stop buying whatever bs the koreans are selling.
MickeyToss (6 hours ago) Summary: Blizzard wants to get payed for having their product being used by an external company which on its own makes me money from using Blizzards product.
Kespa says "no, We do not want to pay you money or let you control the way we use your game."
Blizzard says "yes you will, otherwise you can consider the negotiations over and you will not be allowed to use starcraft to make money or create a e-sport scene around it."
It’s not true at all!
Check OP, please:
KeSPA has expressed its position of being willing to pay for a rational level of usage fee and appeal its support of marketing and promotion for product line-up of Blizzard with continuous investment such as sharing all contents which belong to KeSPA like pro gamers, broadcasting and sponsorship.
or old variant:
The association promised Blizzard the continued marketing and promotional support of their products through the use of all our resources including players, teams and broadcasting, and constant investment including the obtainment of sponsorships, as well as expressing an interest in paying a reasonable usage fee for their products.
It's just you're reading directly from the korean press, whereas I don't know the real deal on blizzards side. I just thought a Korean stating that it was faulty should come on somewhat strongly. Especially someone that was part of broadcasting professional interviews (mickeytoss).
On May 07 2010 09:26 TossNub wrote: Blizzard asking for more money is only gonna have negative effects on the E-sports scene. I mean even if KESPA complies, KESPA is not gonna just be idiots and make less money. They'll either make the prizes smaller, or charge admissions, or other things like that to make up for the money they'll have to give to blizzard. Which means that all the FREE SERVICE we get, like getting to watch these games for free, having TONS of fans, etc etc, will hurt first.... the OGN website is free right now to watch games online, but the MBC website already is charging money for "older" games. Since KESPA people are in no way idiots when it comes to financial business, they'll just make OGN and MBC pay them, or make the teams pay them more which eventually will end up hurting the fans. which is... all of us. That is my opinion economically...
You're right but, it's going to be up to KeSPA if they think they can profit more on SC2 (comparing to bw) even w\ the royalties. If not, there's no point to transitioning right? They just play safe w\ BW and hope people don't grow tired of BW, which can happen.
I don't think KeSPA will want to make a bad deal then break in the process (underpaying players, staff, broadcasters, overcharging sponsors). They'll only do it if they feel they can handle the load.
Yurebis: It is easy to see how passion would lead you to disagree... but you ignored the point about SC's size making it self-sustaining. If that size is fractured by KeSPA sticking to SC1 while an active population favors SC2... then there's the problem.
When I said "kill" I don't mean the player population, a good game is a good game and will be played. If the player base fractures the audience fractures too. Thus, sponsors loose clarity in which to invest in and at what rate. When this falls the money flowing in falls and professional SC as we know it will slowly, but steadily, dry up (negative spiral begins).
SC stays strong because it has the size to do so.
terri : Well, the example is difficult, but the MLB is the controlling body of professional baseball, they set the rules, they control how the game is handled. In this regards, Bliz fits the role. It is actually within Bliz's right to stop KeSPA from broadcasting SC1 at all. People fail to realize it, but a break down in talks, if Bliz wanted to get nasty, could easily mean the end of SC1 broadcasts. However, Bliz isn't so stupid as to spite themselves to slap KeSPA into line.
What's more, is KeSPA has more than once tried to use the mindshare they've garnered from SC and sought to develop competing software (i.e. remove Bliz from the equation); in every turn it has failed because they lack the knowhow to pull it off. KeSPA has proven more than once their motivations are not the well-being of SC, but rather, the well being of KeSPA. However, Bliz is very vested in the well being of SC, which will in-turn, provide some well-being for Bliz (I say some because let's face it... WoW). Which do you want running the show? No brainer.
For this section I'm guessing you didn't look into what I posted. KeSPA has funded competitive game development several times with the goal of their created product being the primary game for Korean eSports. Effectively, they've been taking SC's milk and feeding it to other developers in an attempt to usurp Bliz and remove them from the equation completely.
In a brand holder and licensee holder contract you form it in two ways: 1. flat rate paid up front at the start and end of a project, or 2. royalties are paid as a base of total profits. In the case of #2, audits are common and expected. KeSPA has released this info to an ignorant public in the hopes of pointlessly swaying the court of public opinion. Why I can't imagine... but it is an exceptionally immature move on their part and likely part of the reason Bliz stopped talking to them.
For the shows you listed, let's look at them differently... let's say it is "Pimp My Ride". Do you think that show doesn't pay license fees for the cars they re-make? They certainly do. I speak from experience, especially with car-related licenses, and typically licenses are much cheaper than people think since they work benefits the brand. No doubt, SC is similar. It isn't about profit, it is about brand control and proper use there of.
Ultimately, this isn't about money... for Bliz there really isn't that much to be made there. KeSPA has been and will continue to use the license in abusive ways. Also, people don't understand, when you use anything like this in any capacity you pay licensing fees. This is the norm, what KeSPA enjoys is abnormal and the fact the Bliz let it ride for so long is utterly shocking.
Well it's not Blizzard's fault if players leave KeSPA to go play a new, debatably better game Blizzard's wouldn't be breaking KeSPA any more than Walmart didn't break the mom n pops dollar store next door
edit: indirectly, yeah, but it was the players and fans choice, and Blizzard didn't force them to
On May 07 2010 11:01 Yurebis wrote: Well it's not Blizzard's fault if players leave KeSPA to go play a new, debatably better game Blizzard's wouldn't be breaking KeSPA any more than Walmart didn't break the mom n pops dollar store next door
edit: indirectly, yeah, but it was the players and fans choice, and Blizzard didn't force them to
Who are the players left the “KeSPA to go play a new, debatably better game”?!? What nonsense you post here? They are professionals and they relate to contracts with professional teams. No one will break the contracts for a new game. Moreover, this new game is clearly worse than its predecessor as a competition and as a spectator sports.
On May 07 2010 11:01 Yurebis wrote: Well it's not Blizzard's fault if players leave KeSPA to go play a new, debatably better game Blizzard's wouldn't be breaking KeSPA any more than Walmart didn't break the mom n pops dollar store next door
edit: indirectly, yeah, but it was the players and fans choice, and Blizzard didn't force them to
Who are the players left the “KeSPA to go play a new, debatably better game”?!? What nonsense you post here? They are professionals and they relate to contracts with professional teams. No one will break the contracts for a new game. Moreover, this new game is clearly worse than its predecessor as a competition and as a spectator sports.
It was a hypothetical, no one left. And you don't know the future, no one does.
On May 07 2010 11:01 Yurebis wrote: Well it's not Blizzard's fault if players leave KeSPA to go play a new, debatably better game Blizzard's wouldn't be breaking KeSPA any more than Walmart didn't break the mom n pops dollar store next door
edit: indirectly, yeah, but it was the players and fans choice, and Blizzard didn't force them to
Who are the players left the “KeSPA to go play a new, debatably better game”?!? What nonsense you post here? They are professionals and they relate to contracts with professional teams. No one will break the contracts for a new game. Moreover, this new game is clearly worse than its predecessor as a competition and as a spectator sports.
It was a hypothetical, no one left. And you don't know the future, no one does.
On May 07 2010 11:01 Yurebis wrote: Well it's not Blizzard's fault if players leave KeSPA to go play a new, debatably better game Blizzard's wouldn't be breaking KeSPA any more than Walmart didn't break the mom n pops dollar store next door
edit: indirectly, yeah, but it was the players and fans choice, and Blizzard didn't force them to
But an A to B flip will never happen instantly. In the same way, SCBW didn't grow instantly. There will be a lull in eSports growth while this sorts out.
ugh i really hate KESPA. It seems to me that KESPA is a few self-appointed businessmen and ex gamers that stepped up to try and regulate / organize broodwar events. they are getting a piece of the pie from broadcasters and teams and everyone, and they are doing a job that blizzard can / will be doing in SC2, but they of course want to keep making money, and so they are holding the BW progaming scene hostage
On May 07 2010 12:52 drewbie.root wrote: ugh i really hate KESPA. It seems to me that KESPA is a few self-appointed businessmen and ex gamers that stepped up to try and regulate / organize broodwar events. they are getting a piece of the pie from broadcasters and teams and everyone, and they are doing a job that blizzard can / will be doing in SC2, but they of course want to keep making money, and so they are holding the BW progaming scene hostage
Because Blizzard has already shown themselves capable to run an e-sport, what with their excellent managements of their own tournaments(BlizzCon etc). KeSPA may not be flawless, but they do a lot to help the pro scene. For one, they made the maps.
On May 07 2010 12:52 drewbie.root wrote: ugh i really hate KESPA. It seems to me that KESPA is a few self-appointed businessmen and ex gamers that stepped up to try and regulate / organize broodwar events. they are getting a piece of the pie from broadcasters and teams and everyone, and they are doing a job that blizzard can / will be doing in SC2, but they of course want to keep making money, and so they are holding the BW progaming scene hostage
Because Blizzard has already shown themselves capable to run an e-sport, what with their excellent managements of their own tournaments(BlizzCon etc). KeSPA may not be flawless, but they do a lot to help the pro scene. For one, they made the maps.
not just that, blizz i think blizz isnt looking to do it themselves, they just want a partner that does whatever they want and pays them as much as possible.. kespa didnt just regulate/organize, they created...
1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year 2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan 3. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement 4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos 5. Right to audit KeSPA
1. I agree with KeSPA that 1 year is a bit too short, it'll be hard to generate capital when you present to stakeholders that you have to renewal in a years time, there is no certainty to the Business, let alone player confidence that they may have to find a new association in a years time.
2. This is common, example would be the UFC have to approve who players receive sponsorships from. Blizzard could overly demanding and restrict advertisement of all non-Blizzard game products, restrict advertise of other products, such as console games, (keeping in mind its Activision-Blizzard now), then it may be over the top.
3. Depends on the fee%
4. Okay I think ownership should be shared.
5. This doesn't cost KeSPA anything, I don't see what the problem here is unless they give the "omg i dont wanna be harrased by auditors in dropships every now and then"
On May 07 2010 13:40 fearus wrote: 5. This doesn't cost KeSPA anything, I don't see what the problem here is unless they give the "omg i dont wanna be harrased by auditors in dropships every now and then"
I would have a problem if someone wanted to audit me, even if i did nothing wrong. A lot of innocent people in the USA don't like wiretapping, for example.
Apparently no one here is used to PR talk. What do you expect KeSPA to say? "yea were a bunch of greedy jerks that want to use bliz game to make $ without paying them any royalties." Of course the're going to argue that blizzard is "unreasonable," its just usual corporate BS. It's funny how people actually believe KeSPA was somehow instrumental in the creation of competitive gaming. Really? you don't it was the massive interest in players and the game? This is the one organization that could EVER pull this off?..I'd suggest reading up on the meaning of historical materialism. KeSPA hasn't done anything someone else wouldn't have done if they didn't exist. And when KeSPA is done (and it will be), some other organization will takes its place...blizzard doesn't seriously wish to sit around and micro-manage all the details of tournament organization and player contracts.
On May 07 2010 13:40 fearus wrote: 5. This doesn't cost KeSPA anything, I don't see what the problem here is unless they give the "omg i dont wanna be harrased by auditors in dropships every now and then"
I would have a problem if someone wanted to audit me, even if i did nothing wrong. A lot of innocent people in the USA don't like wiretapping, for example.
Auditing an organization and auditing individuals are two very different things. For one, the issue of privacy is less prominent, seeing as there aren't that many personally private things that one should be doing with corporate funds.
Blizzard makes money from selling their games or selling subscriptions to games. The more sold copies/subscriptions the more money they will make and invest into their next game.
KeSPA makes money from sponsors, which wants to show their products to fans of esports. The more viewers and bigger sponsorships they get, the more money the invest in the next league or tournament.
Not saying one is evil or one is good. Both of them are driven by simple greed and needs to make money to stay alive. I just cheer for KeSPA (or actually, against Blizzard) because I believe it will keep e-sports alive.
** I might also add that I'm frankly not interested in the western e-sports scene. In my wildest fantasies I could never see it outgrow todays Starcraftscene in Korea, even though I always hoped for it.
It would be unwise for Blizzard to engage this. They are a game developing company, running leagues and tournaments and nurture them are not Blizzard's role and never will be.
My bet is that Blizzard will shutdown KeSPA then sell the right to another group. Why would they care about nerds that play this for a living?
the OP had it right, this is all about controlling contents => controlling revenues.
One thing is for sure though, Starleague will never be the same but potentially we can see bigger foreign scene but smaller Korean scene.
On May 07 2010 19:12 D3lta wrote: Apparently no one here is used to PR talk. What do you expect KeSPA to say? "yea were a bunch of greedy jerks that want to use bliz game to make $ without paying them any royalties." Of course the're going to argue that blizzard is "unreasonable," its just usual corporate BS. It's funny how people actually believe KeSPA was somehow instrumental in the creation of competitive gaming. Really? you don't it was the massive interest in players and the game? This is the one organization that could EVER pull this off?..I'd suggest reading up on the meaning of historical materialism. KeSPA hasn't done anything someone else wouldn't have done if they didn't exist. And when KeSPA is done (and it will be), some other organization will takes its place...blizzard doesn't seriously wish to sit around and micro-manage all the details of tournament organization and player contracts.
Read the damn article before you post... They did agree to pay reasonable royalties. What they did not agree with were other ridiculous demands (like giving Blizzard the ownership of the teams and basically everything they'd create that'd have anything to do with SC(2)).
"KeSPA hasn't done anything someone else wouldn't have done if they didn't exist."
And by KeSPA you mean OGN, MBCGame, SKT, KT, Samsung, etc.? NIIIICE. Too bad you're just wrong. Those companies invested tons of resources into the esports industry.
What other orgnization are you talking about? KeSPA consists of most of the biggest corporations in Korea. I wonder what companies you're thinking of.
On May 07 2010 10:56 sk` wrote: Ultimately, this isn't about money... for Bliz there really isn't that much to be made there.
Well, I fail to see this is not about money for Blizzard since they spent time and legal resource to fight with KeSPA. No companies nor any CEO will spend company resource and time on matters they think would not garner them profit in the future. Be it 3 years or 10 years in the future. And the chance of Blizzard failed to gain profit at this matter in the future is the investment risk Blizzard is taking now. This is the investment law.
Copyright law is old, and have not adopted to recent changes with digital age. Lets take two simple examples:
If I use adobe acrobat to create a pdf, should I own the pdf? -> Clearly yes
If I copy all images I find from apple.com but add a tiny "(c) Kalles" in the corner. Can I suddenly say I own these pictures ? - Obviously no, (at least not when I am in front of a judge )
The questions is when and where should the line be drawn. In my opinion the line must allow people some room to move on booth sides, copyright is, or at least should be, intended to promote culture. It is much more preferable for society to allow people some freedom than to lock down everything 100%.
Though I'm new to the SC competitive scene, I've been reading into this situation out of curiosity and from what I can tell, KeSPA has been continually caught doing inappropriate things without Blizzard's permission and this has led to all kinds of trouble. On the other hand, Blizzard seems to be very actively taking an interest in e-sports that they haven't had before, as demonstrated by their tournament brackets built into the SC2 leagues and plans for an invite only pro league. They've grown quite a bit over the past few years with World of Warcraft, and they definitely have the capability to try and build an e-sports option worldwide for their games and direct it in a way that benefits the players and the game. Regardless of the entire copyright situation, Blizzard has shown themselves interested and willing to take the steps needed to support e-sports.
The real question here is how this will affect the state of e-sports, especially in terms of professional Starcraft. Is there any reason Blizzard can't do exactly what KeSPA did with professional gaming? For all we know, they could be making deals with KeSPA's sponsors right now to keep things going in Korea, and I think it's much more likely that e-sports interested companies will be willing to invest in a company that's proving it has the ability to make money by the boatloads. Blizzard has shown an amazing capacity for working with it's fans during the beta of Starcraft 2, and I think it's very likely we'll see that continue after the game is released.
Hi. I am Korean. and I have played and watched sc1 since 1997 and love Blizzard games. I think I know very well about the history of esport and kespa in South Korea.
As you know SC1 is still famous in SK now. But the point of interesting is not same.
At the beginning of SC1, everyone had played sc1, enjoyed playing game. but now almost no Korean play sc1. They just like watching sc1 league. Most Korean,like me, who loved sc1, is now between late 20th or middle 30th years old. Younger than these ages, they don't know how interesting sc1 is. There was no game like sc1 in 1997. But now there are too many good games in SK and some games are very similar to SC1 or SC2 also. I still like sc1. But I don't care the delay of SC2 or no release. It is not matter now because of other good games.
I remember that Kespa supported to install LCD TV in all subways and at subway stations and broadcasted SC1 tournament, no league that time. I think Kespa doesn't use Blizzard icon any more. I cannot see any icons or game characters on TV. They just show the game match and information about records,map, progamers' history. Where is royality from? It is the reason why Blizzard didn't ask royality from Kespa.
Most people here think there are lots of advertisement profit from esport. But actually, it is not. The broadcasting of esport is not main channel in SK. Only cable subscriber can watch it. Watching rate is also very low. Sponsoring is not for profit of advertisement. That is the reason why big company like samsung, KT, SKT,..etc only can support MSL or OSL. These companys are already advertised in the world. Kespa talked they will give up sc2 if no agreement.
Esport is not business like soccer in SK. Soccer league is not profit in SK. Very low number of audience. But big company support it to make sustain. It is a kind of money back to society. There is no progamer scene in the world. SK is same as other countries except sponsoring.
The price of SC2 is very expensive in SK. I think it is difficult to collect pocket money for below 15 years old person to buy it. The price is like 28 Mac donald hamberger combo sets price in SK .
On May 08 2010 03:11 bokbok wrote: Esport is not business like soccer in SK. Soccer league is not profit in SK. Very low number of audience. But big company support it to make sustain. It is a kind of money back to society. There is no progamer scene in the world. SK is same as other countries except sponsoring.
The price of SC2 is very expensive in SK. I think it is difficult to collect pocket money for below 15 years old person to buy it. The price is like 28 Mac donald hamberger combo sets price in SK .
Are you saying the KeSPA corporations are just throwing money away with starcraft broodwar right now? I doubt that. But if it's true, then it's a dead esports as is. No business can go on without a profit, and Blizzard would do good to not invest in it then.
What he said is very accurate. They really don't make anything. Hell, it's been said many times. Admission to watch is free. There is no ticket sales and little merchandising. It's a niche market.
On May 08 2010 08:09 Senx wrote: Soo yea, as we can see confirmed by the korean on this page, esport in SKorea is dying and have no plans of making a comeback.
This kespa vs blizzard debate just became fairly irrelevant..
That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. If I came on here saying that I'm Russian and that my nation is disbanding, would you suddenly give me your deepest regrets and best wishes with absolutely no doubt in your mind that I 1) am actually Russian, 2) am telling the truth, and 3) have my information correctly in order?
Regardless if you believe their testimony (urashimakt, I would fully believe the russian statement because they still are in the crap hole) the end result of blizzard's arrogance with their game is revolting truth be told.
Now, I can fully understand that Blizzard wants to make money from their game, thats fine. But also charge for tournaments? What business is it of Blizzard to charge those after they already payed for a game? Hell MLG - Who single handily made a market starting with Halo2 wasn't interfered at all by Microsoft when it started to get big (not including free advertising here and there alongside some royalties, would like conformation)
Whats even more disgraceful is how Blizzard is trying to gripe like every other company in the PC gaming world. In reality, a few hackers could come by, crack the game, make LAN available (or make a server on their own) then Blizzard cant even TOUCH them. Seriously, Playing badass in the gaming world doesn't work out. Blizzard wont even be able to touch KeSPA if they decided to download the game from sweeden (piracy laws there), then running it on their own network. All this bickering is about is false control and Blizzard thinking they are entitled to money beyond when they sell their game (as if they have rights to a sold product. Pitaful)
[B]On May 08 2010 13:09 Energizer wrote: In reality, a few hackers could come by, crack the game, make LAN available (or make a server on their own) then Blizzard cant even TOUCH them.
No doubt they could do this, but it'd be so obviously illegal that it wouldn't hold up in court.
[B]On May 08 2010 13:09 Energizer wrote: In reality, a few hackers could come by, crack the game, make LAN available (or make a server on their own) then Blizzard cant even TOUCH them.
No doubt they could do this, but it'd be so obviously illegal that it wouldn't hold up in court.
In court? Lol. Blizzard will have to go through international court (which is a big joke) or attempt to go through korean's court system (another big joke). Neither case does America's laws affect KeSPA (Piratebay.com knows this quite well). It all depends on S Korea's laws on piracy.
On May 08 2010 13:09 Energizer wrote: In reality, a few hackers could come by, crack the game, make LAN available (or make a server on their own) then Blizzard cant even TOUCH them.
No doubt they could do this, but it'd be so obviously illegal that it wouldn't hold up in court.
In court? Lol. Blizzard will have to go through international court (which is a big joke) or attempt to go through korean's court system (another big joke). Neither case does America's laws affect KeSPA (Piratebay.com knows this quite well). It all depends on S Korea's laws on piracy.
I would think South Korea would have at least enough piracy laws to stop that. But unless either of us knows Korean law, we can only speculate. IMO it's pretty unlikely they could get away with it.
[B]On May 08 2010 13:09 Energizer wrote: In reality, a few hackers could come by, crack the game, make LAN available (or make a server on their own) then Blizzard cant even TOUCH them.
No doubt they could do this, but it'd be so obviously illegal that it wouldn't hold up in court.
In court? Lol. Blizzard will have to go through international court (which is a big joke) or attempt to go through korean's court system (another big joke). Neither case does America's laws affect KeSPA (Piratebay.com knows this quite well). It all depends on S Korea's laws on piracy.
On May 04 2010 07:42 Railz wrote: How long before it will be before some moron says, "but Kespa created esports, Blizzard needs them" Kespa didn't create esports, the players did. Playing under harsh conditions with no pay, yet having the Charisma to get the government to back them is what made Kespa.
Absolutely, completely out of context. Every sentence, I would say every idea, "pseudo-concepts", almost every word, so twisted. SO funny to see ppl trying to make a point about something without knowing/understanding anything at all, just like the other dude on this same thread talking nonsense stuff about KeSPA / GomTv. One certain thing here in this conflict is neither Blizzard nor KeSPA see themselves with less money at the very end.
I really don't like Blizzard's stance on their game. Royalties were fine but being the creator of the game doesn't (or shouldn't) allow Blizz to sit atop e-sports like a despot.
On May 08 2010 08:09 Senx wrote: Soo yea, as we can see confirmed by the korean on this page, esport in SKorea is dying and have no plans of making a comeback.
This kespa vs blizzard debate just became fairly irrelevant..
That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. If I came on here saying that I'm Russian and that my nation is disbanding, would you suddenly give me your deepest regrets and best wishes with absolutely no doubt in your mind that I 1) am actually Russian, 2) am telling the truth, and 3) have my information correctly in order?
You're accusing bokbok of being a troll? Well thats fine, but I don't. I'm going to believe a guy who actually lives in SKorea and experiences things first hand rather than the majority of the other people in this thread who are just spewing out nonsense-know-it-all posts about the future of esports in SKorea.
The situation is, blizzard is not making money for all their hard work for the past few years. To say that kespa created esport is BS! That has nothing to do with the success of SC 1. Blizzard can't make money off SC 1 long time ago. However, Kespa did. This is a money driven business. Blizzard could just create their own esport. Unfortunately, north americans, dont watch esport, most of them play the sport. Having esport around in korea blizzard couldnt care less. korea such a small market in terms of people buying SC2. gimme the fucking money or fuck off. we running a business, not a charity for esport viewers.
On May 09 2010 03:03 Eternal Obilivion wrote: This is a money driven business. Blizzard could just create their own esport. Unfortunately, north americans, dont watch esport, most of them play the sport. Having esport around in korea blizzard couldnt care less. korea such a small market in terms of people buying SC2. gimme the fucking money or fuck off. we running a business, not a charity for esport viewers.
How about making coherent arguments in the language of your country? Also Korea is not a small market in terms of SC2 sales, it has the biggest potential for longevity and fan interest, which is what happened with SC1. Stop making stupid statements.
On May 08 2010 13:09 Energizer wrote: In reality, a few hackers could come by, crack the game, make LAN available (or make a server on their own) then Blizzard cant even TOUCH them.
No doubt they could do this, but it'd be so obviously illegal that it wouldn't hold up in court.
In court? Lol. Blizzard will have to go through international court (which is a big joke) or attempt to go through korean's court system (another big joke). Neither case does America's laws affect KeSPA (Piratebay.com knows this quite well). It all depends on S Korea's laws on piracy.
This isn't Sweden. Lots of countries support big business.
Uhm it's illeagal downloading copyrighted material in Sweden too... I'd imagine it's the same in SK.
They'll probably simply skip out on SC2 if this isn't settled...
[B]On May 09 2010 03:03 Eternal Obilivion wrote: The situation is, blizzard is not making money for all their hard work for the past few years. To say that kespa created esport is BS! That has nothing to do with the success of SC 1.
Thats not the situation, it's merely your own oppinion.
[inSC]: I don't know, whether you can say anything on that but last week, we heard a lot of news from Korea. We had a statement from Blizzard and KeSPA. Do you have any comment on what's going on over there?
Dustin: Uhm, I think Bob does.
Bob: Can you be more specific about your question?
[inSC]: Well, the Korean eSport Association just made a big announcement and prior to this we heard that Mike Morhaime cancelled the negotiations with KeSPA. So will this have any impact on the current Korean pro-gaming scene, e.g. perhaps leagues will have to shut down or that StarCraft II won't be sold there?
Bob Colayco: Well, you know, we certainly hope not. And personally I do wanna mention that we at Blizzard respect NDAs and we don't wanna comment on details about any negotiations that may have taken place or any terms. But there are several things said by KeSPA throughout there and we don't really agree to a lot of what they are saying. So, our goal is to buster eSport not only in Korea, but on a global basis. That's really part of our community development efforts and we're just looking to protect our rights, you know, the StarCraft IP (intellectual property), not only in Korea, but worldwide. We want to develop eSports to the greatest heights, that it can reach. And, you know, we think that we are able to play an active role in it. We can help this process along, especially since StarCraft and StarCraft II are our games and we developed them ourselves.
Dustin: I certainly don't see it as not-selling in Korea, we will definitely trying to sell the game in Korea to our fans in Korea, even if there was no such thing as eSports, we wanna bring it to the Korean fans.
Well he words it like Blizzard are just nice guys out to make eSports bigger, but its already big in Korea and Blizzard cannot and is not doing anything to help that. How about they just focus on the rest of the world they keep mentioning and leave Korea alone considering its already working there.
Blizzard made SC but never had the intention to create e-Sport. Korea made SC blew up for the world. Blizzard let them continue and see how far it can go, knowing they could steal the whole thing later in the future by IP. Instead of being competitive and try to have the biggest and best e-sport event, they'll just win it by IP. Some say this is not capitalism, but Korea and the other countries aren't either. Money and Power is the key for Blizzard'sActivision's Vivendi's future of e-Sport.
On May 09 2010 07:52 Water.LoST wrote: Blizzard made SC but never had the intention to create e-Sport. Korea made SC blew up for the world. Blizzard let them continue and see how far it can go, knowing they could steal the whole thing later in the future by IP. Instead of being competitive and try to have the biggest and best e-sport event, they'll just win it by IP. Some say this is not capitalism, but Korea and the other countries aren't either. Money and Power is the key for Blizzard'sActivision's Vivendi's future of e-Sport.
the majority of that statement is wrong. Blizzard tried fighting for IP rights on SC 1 a long time ago and got shot down by the gov. and KeSPA.
Sorry e-sports does not = KeSPA. people seem to forget that there is a whole sport centered on DoTA. Korean doesnt do that, but it's a lucrative business. Same for WoW - you have PvP and PvE guilds that are sponsored.
My personal thought on the situation is that if Kespa is in any way profiting from SC then they need to pay blizzard some type of royalty. I think it's unreasonable for blizzard to ask to be involved in the inner workings and management of the leagues though. Assuming that Kespa's claims are true, I think blizzard should be more flexible and willing to negotiate, but I feel like we are probably only getting one side of the story in this article. In my mind the only real dispute should be on HOW MUCH Kespa should be paying blizzard for the rights to use SC and I would hope that the two sides would be able to come to a reasonable agreement on this matter for the sake of e-sports and the fans. I really think it should be strictly a monetary thing, anything beyond that (blizzard's involvement in management) should not even be an issue in my opinion...
The main reason, I believe, that this entire situation exist is because this particular situation has NEVER happened before in our history that I can remember. Nobody owns Soccer, Football, Baseball, Basketball, Hockey, etc. What if someone could legally claim ownership rights for the creation of one of these sports? I believe that situation would be no different. But as far as I can tell, as long as there is this much work put into the league, (camerawork, commentary, league team organizations...), the entire KeSPA could pass as a derivative work of Starcraft, and get around some of these accusations. Derivative works exist as their own IP. That’s why the NFL can claim copyright to their broadcast footage, but can’t stop a small town intramural league from existing.
I believe the existence of battle.net in its current form is specifically to combat enterprises using their game without giving them a cut. IF blizzard refuses to work with KeSPA or any other league, to get that game operational, they would have to hack it to run without server support, or point it to a private server so the games would connect. IF Blizzard got their way, I could easily see them using licensed servers locally for the leagues to use to connect for gaming. Activision/Blizzard is just going for the money grab because they can. But I doubt in the long-term they will be successful in stopping gaming in this nature.
Remember, The Activision CEO is on record announcing that they want nothing to do with any property that they cannot exploit to the fullest.
Why not look at the model for NFL football or NBA basketball for a direction. I think they have like 5 year contracts with ABC or CBS, and then side contracts with espn etc, and the T.V companies pay BIG money to the respective sports to broadcast them.
On May 10 2010 02:10 Chrion wrote: Why not look at the model for NFL football or NBA basketball for a direction. I think they have like 5 year contracts with ABC or CBS, and then side contracts with espn etc.
But the thing is that NFL and NBA do NOT own either of the sports while Blizzard MADE BW.
On May 10 2010 02:10 Chrion wrote: Why not look at the model for NFL football or NBA basketball for a direction. I think they have like 5 year contracts with ABC or CBS, and then side contracts with espn etc.
But the thing is that NFL and NBA do NOT own either of the sports while Blizzard MADE BW.
But doesnt the NFL get paid from a huge multi year contract that the television companies bid on? So Blizzard should be able to say, ok which company wants to be the lucky one that gets to produce and show pro starcraft for the next 5 years, and then they see whos willing to pay the most?
On May 04 2010 07:36 Adron wrote: hmm, looks like blizzard woke up and eecided it wanted a piece of the pie Kespa baked. Or am i way off here?
while there could be a long debate over how representative KeSPA is of everyone who makes e-sports in korea possible, yes, it's about Blizzard wanting ownership over secondary content created by other people using their products.
KeSPA pretty much represents all the corporate interests that make ESPORTS in South Korea possible. They don't represent the players, though.
they do, all eleven teams have representatives partaking in kespa, and if one team were to act out against kespa, they'd probably get all their players DQ'd or something. That is unless 4 or 5 teams or more decide to act out together, but don't see that happening now with kespa already so deeply involved in the inner workings of esports
you realize that doesn't mean they technically represent the teams, right? Just because the biggest corporations in Korea(the guys that DO sponsor the teams) have a favorable relationship and are happy with the current situation, doesn't mean "KeSPA = Samsung." Lets say Blizzard prevents further broadcasts of their game (its just flat out ignorant to argue they don't have the legal right to do so), and KeSPA falls apart This doesn't change the demand for Starcraft games. Where there is demand, there is inevitably someone who will tap into this demand for profit (currently this is KeSPA). Corporations will continue to sponsor SC teams as long as they see the benefit in the advertising pro players provide. In short...any damage the competitive SC or broadly RTS community suffers from this, is temporary. Another organization will always preform KeSPA's role as long as there's demand.
Out of curiousity, people are taking up DOTA as an alternative esports. I've never seen any leagues as big as the Korean Starcraftleagues, even though the chinese are hosting quite big tournaments. Did Blizzard claim anything from them?
I just feel Blizzard tries to kill "BW esport" so they can milk a potential "SC2 esport".
Comparison of organizational structures of football and StarCraft in brief: 1. Game owner — NONE — Blizzard 2. Sport organizer — National Federation — National Federation (i.e. KeSPA) 3. Teams — club owners — team sponsors 4. Broadcasting — broadcasting companies — broadcasting companies
The game owner is that element of the structure of professional sports, which is able to ruin or even break the entire structure. He has no constructive rôle.
On May 10 2010 04:10 D3lta wrote: you realize that doesn't mean they technically represent the teams, right?
Does this?
A united response, from the broadcasters and the pro-gaming teams. All of the companies on KeSPA’s board of directors recognize KeSPA as their sole representative, and have agreed to act together in the negotiations with Blizzard regarding intellectual property rights. The stance of the association and the pro-game teams on the breakdown in negotiations with Blizzard is as follows.
The general (GENERAL) feeling from 35 pages of this thread is this:
Blizzard are right to ask for royalties / advertisement from Kespa, if not for the money, but just for the recognition that they are the developers.
Blizzard is being unreasonable to seek to control the management of leagues, broadcasting and teams.
Well, just my two cents here, but lets say this was football. Heck, even the world cup is near the same time as SC2!
In this case, Blizzard are clearly Fifa. They are the world gods of football. And Kespa are.. just a broadcaster.
Fifa organizes EVERYTHING. ALL the major tournaments (and ALL professional domestic leagues) go through them, and ALL international matches. Hell, they even have a huge say in team roster, as they allocate rules on domestic leagues and international teams on transfer dates and eligibility.
So, question... why is it unreasonable for Blizzard too as well? Football would sure as hell not be this popular without broadcasters, but that doesn't give them the legal OR moral right to soak up the hardwork of Blizzard.
On May 10 2010 07:28 aloT wrote: The general (GENERAL) feeling from 35 pages of this thread is this:
Blizzard are right to ask for royalties / advertisement from Kespa, if not for the money, but just for the recognition that they are the developers.
Blizzard is being unreasonable to seek to control the management of leagues, broadcasting and teams.
Well, just my two cents here, but lets say this was football. Heck, even the world cup is near the same time as SC2!
In this case, Blizzard are clearly Fifa. They are the world gods of football. And Kespa are.. just a broadcaster.
Fifa organizes EVERYTHING. ALL the major tournaments (and ALL professional domestic leagues) go through them, and ALL international matches. Hell, they even have a huge say in team roster, as they allocate rules on domestic leagues and international teams on transfer dates and eligibility.
So, question... why is it unreasonable for Blizzard too as well? Football would sure as hell not be this popular without broadcasters, but that doesn't give them the legal OR moral right to soak up the hardwork of Blizzard.
Your analogy is completely wrong. In e-Spots FIFA is International e-Sports Federation. Blizzard is just one of the game developers.
Nonduc, I believe that is completely incorrect. The reason e-sports is not called sports is because of differences like this. Blizzard are not "just" the game developers, (by meaning that all they do is make the game and nothing else). By creating the game, patching the content and creating future content, it means that Blizzard and Blizzard alone are the complete master's of their own work and how it progresses. Kespa and the Iesf are completely and totally reliant on Blizzard. Blizzard however, will still sell millions of games without Kespa and the Iesf. I compare Blizzard to Fifa because the power relation is so heavily one-sided.
On May 10 2010 09:00 nonduc wrote: Blizzard does not create the game content in SC — progamers create this one with the support of the observers and commentators.
EDIT: typo
What? Blizzard creates game content. They are called level design technicians. Its pretty much half the design process after coding and graphics engine... progamers, observers and commentators do not create anything, maybe some verbal feedback.
while i admit Blizz did an awesome job making SC, but credits still go to the Korean progamers as well as MBC, OGN for developing the pro SC scene. Everything from getting sponsors (so players can get PAID!!!) to map designs etc, all these work are independent of Blizz.
i honestly doubt blizz has any claims of IP rights over these matters.
On May 10 2010 09:00 nonduc wrote: Blizzard does not create the game content in SC — progamers create this one with the support of the observers and commentators.
EDIT: typo
What? Blizzard creates game content. They are called level design technicians. Its pretty much half the design process after coding and graphics engine... progamers, observers and commentators do not create anything, maybe some verbal feedback.
The game content is a strategy and its execution on a specific map. Blizzard creates only the core functionality of the game, but players, observers, commentators and professional mapmakers create the game content.
(Blizzard’s maps and the soles are not suitable order maps, which progamers play.)
blizzard is that kid in Victorian times who decided to kick a pig skin around if you were to compare it to football but the situation is quite different to what football is
On May 10 2010 09:00 nonduc wrote: Blizzard does not create the game content in SC — progamers create this one with the support of the observers and commentators.
EDIT: typo
What? Blizzard creates game content. They are called level design technicians. Its pretty much half the design process after coding and graphics engine... progamers, observers and commentators do not create anything, maybe some verbal feedback.
The game content is a strategy and its execution on a specific map. Blizzard creates only the core functionality of the game, but players, observers, commentators and professional mapmakers create the game content.
(Blizzard’s maps and the soles are not suitable order maps, which progamers play.)
You don't "own" the maps you make in a blizzard editor though, read the terms of usage of their editors.
Too many people trying to make E-Sports and real sports comparisons
Although if this were a real sport NFL, MLB, NBA, has to have given consent for people to broadcast their sports.
At the same time NFL, MLB, NBA, aren't the only form of a sport able to be spectated/played.
In other words, comparisons of a computer game =! comparisons to real life sports, because the rules aren't even that concrete in either one. Not to mention intellectual property rights.
A united response, from the broadcasters and the pro-gaming teams. All of the companies on KeSPA’s board of directors recognize KeSPA as their sole representative, and have agreed to act together in the negotiations with Blizzard regarding intellectual property rights. The stance of the association and the pro-game teams on the breakdown in negotiations with Blizzard is as follows.
No...it just means that the SPONSORS currently agree to back KeSPA. I don't see whats so hard to understand about this. Again, KeSPA disbanding doesn't = Corporations disbanding. They will be there if KeSPA fails, they will bail if another organization becomes more successful than KeSPA, because KeSPA is in fact, a separate entity from the sponsors of pro game teams. Currently, KeSPA represents the best investment for the various big sponsors. A fact KeSPA exploits by forcing corporation such as this. There is no benefit currently to break from KeSPA...which is why some people hail Blizzards involvement as fortunate, given that it might break up KeSPA's hold on televised competitive SC, and allow a organization to control this that won't try to monopolize the whole thing (I.e. forcing teams to not partake in non-KeSPA televised events ect.).
First of all, those sponsors ARE KeSPA. If "KeSPA" disbands and they form another organization, it'll still be KeSPA, just under a different name.
Second of all, afaik KeSPA did not ban anyone (save for anyone with a progaming from playing in SC2 tournaments, but I assume you're talking about GOMTV).
this is like (example incoming) windows movie maker claiming ownership to every video edited on their program and charging people every time they upload the video they made to youtube just because the video was edited on their published software. blizzard makes enough money and the publicity esports brings them can only help. trying to wrap their fingers around the players trying to squeeze as much money out of everything just pisses everyone off.
i guess the only thing kespa did that was unreasonable was maybe the whole GOMtv thing.
regardless, both sides want money but blizzard is just being unreasonable while kespa is just trying to host its events without complications or blizzs hand's in their pockets.
On May 11 2010 03:03 KingPants wrote: I can not get past the inability of people to see the difference between a tool for art creation and a video game.
I'm not watching Zeratul rip some cerebrates apart. I'm watching Bisu rape sAviOr. You need to understand that StarCraft is a medium here. If it were any other game that played exactly the same (i.e. the same gameplay but totally different lore) I'd still watch it.
I'm not watching Zeratul rip some cerebrates apart. I'm watching Bisu rape sAviOr. You need to understand that StarCraft is a medium here. If it were any other game that played exactly the same (i.e. the same gameplay but totally different lore) I'd still watch it.
That is absurd in every way. You are pretending that Blizzard did not make the gameplay. You are pretending that lore is what differentiates games. And I am absolutely certain that Starcraft would not have a pro scene if it had poor graphics. etc.
It is a game. Why can't you admit that you enjoy watching two people play a game? If your enjoyment has nothing to do with Starcraft then why are you watching two Starcraft players play Starcraft?
To me it's like saying I enjoy winapm playing music... I don't enjoy watching two random players play a game. I enjoy quality matches provided by progamers.
People are looking at this the wrong way with the sports analogies. Yes, it's an e-sport, but it's a relatively new thing. Sports don't have this problem because the people who invented them are long dead.
What Blizzard is doing is more akin to what a lot of software makers do. They are selling a product (more like leasing in this context but that's another issue) which is capable of creating content (the tournaments/records thereof). The pro-gaming leagues create this content, using a Blizzard product, and in return they pay a royalty for the use of the product. The important thing to realize is that Blizzard is not entitled to the profits derived from that work, any more than Adobe is entitled to a share of a graphic artist's profits on a picture he created with Photoshop.
I work with AutoCAD frequently, and design a number of things with it. In return, I pay them a reasonable fee for the use of the software. I do not pay them a percentage of what I earn on the work derived through it, and they certainly don't have any right to audit my books and see how much I earned. Same thing with Windows - I use it as an OS while developing things, and I pay for use of the software, but it's none of their business what I create while using it. This is no different than the RIAA trying to claim you are just borrowing the music you buy on CD, and they decide how and where you can use it. Blizzard needs to negotiate their royalty and stay out of the rest of it, no matter what you think of KeSPA. They make and sell a product, what people do with that product isn't a matter for the creators
On May 11 2010 04:24 Entitygm wrote: People are looking at this the wrong way with the sports analogies. Yes, it's an e-sport, but it's a relatively new thing. Sports don't have this problem because the people who invented them are long dead.
What Blizzard is doing is more akin to what a lot of software makers do. They are selling a product (more like leasing in this context but that's another issue) which is capable of creating content (the tournaments/records thereof). The pro-gaming leagues create this content, using a Blizzard product, and in return they pay a royalty for the use of the product. The important thing to realize is that Blizzard is not entitled to the profits derived from that work, any more than Adobe is entitled to a share of a graphic artist's profits on a picture he created with Photoshop.
I work with AutoCAD frequently, and design a number of things with it. In return, I pay them a reasonable fee for the use of the software. I do not pay them a percentage of what I earn on the work derived through it, and they certainly don't have any right to audit my books and see how much I earned. Same thing with Windows - I use it as an OS while developing things, and I pay for use of the software, but it's none of their business what I create while using it. This is no different than the RIAA trying to claim you are just borrowing the music you buy on CD, and they decide how and where you can use it. Blizzard needs to negotiate their royalty and stay out of the rest of it, no matter what you think of KeSPA. They make and sell a product, what people do with that product isn't a matter for the creators
It rests on you to prove that playing a video game is the same thing as making art because nobody has ever made that claim and had that claim be respected. What you are doing and what many people in this thread are doing is acting like that opinion is a well accepted fact. Your entire argument is built on that opinion being true but you provide no evidence of it being true. Do you see the problem with your argument?
I love to get my friends together in a room with couches and decode an .avi together.
On May 11 2010 03:03 KingPants wrote: I can not get past the inability of people to see the difference between a tool for art creation and a video game.
Art is not a meaningful term in this context. A painting program doesn't claim your output regardless of whether you produce art or suck.
Brood War is used as a tool for professionals to create a product centered around an audio/visual, which is then used to sell advertising space.
Kespa should pay a royalty for showing Blizzard's stuff in their for-profit TV broadcasts, and they agreed to do so.
On May 11 2010 04:24 Entitygm wrote: People are looking at this the wrong way with the sports analogies. Yes, it's an e-sport, but it's a relatively new thing. Sports don't have this problem because the people who invented them are long dead.
What Blizzard is doing is more akin to what a lot of software makers do. They are selling a product (more like leasing in this context but that's another issue) which is capable of creating content (the tournaments/records thereof). The pro-gaming leagues create this content, using a Blizzard product, and in return they pay a royalty for the use of the product. The important thing to realize is that Blizzard is not entitled to the profits derived from that work, any more than Adobe is entitled to a share of a graphic artist's profits on a picture he created with Photoshop.
I work with AutoCAD frequently, and design a number of things with it. In return, I pay them a reasonable fee for the use of the software. I do not pay them a percentage of what I earn on the work derived through it, and they certainly don't have any right to audit my books and see how much I earned. Same thing with Windows - I use it as an OS while developing things, and I pay for use of the software, but it's none of their business what I create while using it. This is no different than the RIAA trying to claim you are just borrowing the music you buy on CD, and they decide how and where you can use it. Blizzard needs to negotiate their royalty and stay out of the rest of it, no matter what you think of KeSPA. They make and sell a product, what people do with that product isn't a matter for the creators
It rests on you to prove that playing a video game is the same thing as making art because nobody has ever made that claim and had that claim be respected. What you are doing and what many people in this thread are doing is acting like that opinion is a well accepted fact. Your entire argument is built on that opinion being true but you provide no evidence of it being true. Do you see the problem with your argument?
It's largely a matter of perception what you consider the content here. People are stating their opinions in hope more people realize that the pro matches/broadcast can be regarded as the actual content here, while the game as a 'mere' tool. How else can we try to establish a precedent other than being vocal about our views on the issue?
On May 11 2010 04:25 KingPants wrote: How many programs can play music? How many programs can allow players to play a game of Starcraft?
I guess Adobe should also demand royalties from artists using PhotoShop. ;;
Let's just agree to disagree, this isn't getting nowhere.
The difference here is that Photoshop is designed to be a tool and Starcraft is designed to be a game. Just because you compare two things does not mean they are comparable.
Hey maybenexttime, I guess pizzas should demand royalties from people who eat them.
On May 11 2010 04:45 maybenexttime wrote: It's largely a matter of perception what you consider the content here. People are stating their opinions in hope more people realize that the pro matches/broadcast can be regarded as the actual content here, while the game as a 'mere' tool. How else can we try to establish a precedent other than being vocal about our views on the issue?
Exactly - I may not agree with KeSPA's policies (a lot of them are outright silly ggg) but this case is going to set the precedent. Does Blizzard own the game of Starcraft, or do they by extension own everything created through it, and even the leagues dedicated to playing it. I don't see id or Valve making these ridiculous demands on e-sports organizers. Blizzard has the biggest cash cow in gaming history (WoW), I have trouble feeling much sympathy for them here.
As for providing facts to back my opinion, that's not something I can just pull out of thin air. This is new territory and the rules haven't been written yet. I am, however, a strong believer in the rights of the consumer, and I see this going the same way Apple has taken the apps store, where they own the content developed for the iPhone, because they own the platform, and I think that's a horribly stifling system
On May 11 2010 04:25 KingPants wrote: How many programs can play music? How many programs can allow players to play a game of Starcraft?
I guess Adobe should also demand royalties from artists using PhotoShop. ;;
Let's just agree to disagree, this isn't getting nowhere.
The difference here is that Photoshop is designed to be a tool and Starcraft is designed to be a game. Just because you compare two things does not mean they are comparable.
Hey maybenexttime, I guess pizzas should demand royalties from people who eat them.
Starcraft is a piece of software, just like Photoshop. Just because one is for entertainment and one is for productivity doesn't change anything. It's not like the EULA is a forever binding contract - if it were there wouldn't be any need for these negotiations. EULA's have been and continue to be uncertain legal territory (not quite a contract)
On May 11 2010 04:45 maybenexttime wrote: It's largely a matter of perception what you consider the content here. People are stating their opinions in hope more people realize that the pro matches/broadcast can be regarded as the actual content here, while the game as a 'mere' tool. How else can we try to establish a precedent other than being vocal about our views on the issue?
Exactly - I may not agree with KeSPA's policies (a lot of them are outright silly ggg) but this case is going to set the precedent. Does Blizzard own the game of Starcraft, or do they by extension own everything created through it, and even the leagues dedicated to playing it. I don't see id or Valve making these ridiculous demands on e-sports organizers. Blizzard has the biggest cash cow in gaming history (WoW), I have trouble feeling much sympathy for them here.
As for providing facts to back my opinion, that's not something I can just pull out of thin air. This is new territory and the rules haven't been written yet. I am, however, a strong believer in the rights of the consumer, and I see this going the same way Apple has taken the apps store, where they own the content developed for the iPhone, because they own the platform, and I think that's a horribly stifling system
There is actually a lot of precedent for using art in media. If you play music in a movie or on tv you have to pay the person who made the music, if you use art in a game you have to pay the person who made that art, etc.
I don't see so much a respect for consumer rights as I do a disrespect for artist's rights. Even if a company has a lot of money it still deserves the rights to it's own creation.
Kespa is using Blizzards art, music, voice acting, and sound effects without paying royalties and that is a fact.
PS: It does make a difference whether a piece of software is for entertainment or is a tool for creation. Most people will laugh at you if say all software is the same.
On May 11 2010 04:45 maybenexttime wrote: It's largely a matter of perception what you consider the content here. People are stating their opinions in hope more people realize that the pro matches/broadcast can be regarded as the actual content here, while the game as a 'mere' tool. How else can we try to establish a precedent other than being vocal about our views on the issue?
Exactly - I may not agree with KeSPA's policies (a lot of them are outright silly ggg) but this case is going to set the precedent. Does Blizzard own the game of Starcraft, or do they by extension own everything created through it, and even the leagues dedicated to playing it. I don't see id or Valve making these ridiculous demands on e-sports organizers. Blizzard has the biggest cash cow in gaming history (WoW), I have trouble feeling much sympathy for them here.
As for providing facts to back my opinion, that's not something I can just pull out of thin air. This is new territory and the rules haven't been written yet. I am, however, a strong believer in the rights of the consumer, and I see this going the same way Apple has taken the apps store, where they own the content developed for the iPhone, because they own the platform, and I think that's a horribly stifling system
There is actually a lot of precedent for using art in media. If you play music in a movie or on tv you have to pay the person who made the music, if you use art in a game you have to pay the person who made that art, etc.
I don't see so much a respect for consumer rights as I do a disrespect for artist's rights. Even if a company has a lot of money it still deserves the rights to it's own creation.
Kespa is using Blizzards art, music, voice acting, and sound effects without paying royalties and that is a fact.
PS: It does make a difference whether a piece of software is for entertainment or is a tool for creation. Most people will laugh at you if say all software is the same.
The point is KeSPA wants to pay royalties and some sort of fees. What they disagree with and many people (including myself) find ridiculous is the fact that Blizzard wanted to ownership of anything using StarCraft in any way pretty much.
It's like you demanded the authorship of a movie just becaused your song was used in it (can we stop with all those analogies?). Sure, you deserve some compensation, but don't expect the actual makers of the movie to give it to you and bow to you.
On May 11 2010 04:45 maybenexttime wrote: It's largely a matter of perception what you consider the content here. People are stating their opinions in hope more people realize that the pro matches/broadcast can be regarded as the actual content here, while the game as a 'mere' tool. How else can we try to establish a precedent other than being vocal about our views on the issue?
Exactly - I may not agree with KeSPA's policies (a lot of them are outright silly ggg) but this case is going to set the precedent. Does Blizzard own the game of Starcraft, or do they by extension own everything created through it, and even the leagues dedicated to playing it. I don't see id or Valve making these ridiculous demands on e-sports organizers. Blizzard has the biggest cash cow in gaming history (WoW), I have trouble feeling much sympathy for them here.
As for providing facts to back my opinion, that's not something I can just pull out of thin air. This is new territory and the rules haven't been written yet. I am, however, a strong believer in the rights of the consumer, and I see this going the same way Apple has taken the apps store, where they own the content developed for the iPhone, because they own the platform, and I think that's a horribly stifling system
There is actually a lot of precedent for using art in media. If you play music in a movie or on tv you have to pay the person who made the music, if you use art in a game you have to pay the person who made that art, etc.
I don't see so much a respect for consumer rights as I do a disrespect for artist's rights. Even if a company has a lot of money it still deserves the rights to it's own creation.
Kespa is using Blizzards art, music, voice acting, and sound effects without paying royalties and that is a fact.
PS: It does make a difference whether a piece of software is for entertainment or is a tool for creation. Most people will laugh at you if say all software is the same.
I'm glad you brought up use of music in movies/tv though. The company pays a royalty, that much is certain (I'm surprised KeSPA doesn't already do this), but that should be the artist's compensation. It comes down to a fundamental difference of opinion on how much right an artist has to derivations of his creation. If Jay-Z pays daft punk or whoever $10,000 for the right to remix one of their songs, and his version goes on to become a major hit and he earns $10,000,000 off of it, does daft punk have the right to demand a percentage of that, on top of the fee already received, or was the initial fee the end of it? I certainly don't think they'd be allowed to come in and demand a look at exactly how much he earned off of it, and have a say in how it's used in the future. The compensation has already been given
Also "Copyright does not protect the idea for a game, its name or title, or the method or methods for playing it. Nor does copyright protect any idea, system, method, device, or trademark material involved in developing, merchandising, or playing a game. Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles." from http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html
The copyright holder has the right to decide whether they want a flat fee, a per usage fee, or a percentage of profit. If they decide they want a percentage they also have a right to know that they are getting the percentage agreed upon.
I disagree that complete ownership of the movie/tv show is fair terms for the use of media, but a company can make as wild a demand as they want to, they don't have to make a reasonable offer if they don't want to. It is their right when it comes to deciding what they do with what they made.
What I take issue with is people making absurd claims that a game of Starcraft is a new piece of art itself disconnected from the hundred or so(?) people who put their time and creativity into making the game. It was made as a finished product for consumption and to pretend that it is instead a tool for creating art is intellectually dishonest. If you use the game for profit, you have to agree to the creators terms. Kespa is simply taking advantage of Blizzards inability to enforce it's rights.
Also "Copyright does not protect the idea for a game, its name or title, or the method or methods for playing it. Nor does copyright protect any idea, system, method, device, or trademark material involved in developing, merchandising, or playing a game. Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles." from http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html
That is a much better analogy but you left out some very important parts from those sites.
"Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author’s expression in literary, artistic, or musical form."
"Material prepared in connection with a game may be subject to copyright if it contains a sufficient amount of literary or pictorial expression. For example, the text matter describing the rules of the game or the pictorial matter appearing on the gameboard or container may be registrable."
Since Starcraft can not be separated from it's copyrighted images and sounds, it can not legally be displayed without the copyright holders permission. I believe there is a fair use exception in that you can show a very short segment of it(for example if you are reviewing it or mocking it) but that also does not apply because we are talking about full length BW games.
On May 11 2010 04:25 KingPants wrote: How many programs can play music? How many programs can allow players to play a game of Starcraft?
I guess Adobe should also demand royalties from artists using PhotoShop. ;;
Let's just agree to disagree, this isn't getting nowhere.
The difference here is that Photoshop is designed to be a tool and Starcraft is designed to be a game. Just because you compare two things does not mean they are comparable.
Hey maybenexttime, I guess pizzas should demand royalties from people who eat them.
Starcraft is a piece of software, just like Photoshop. Just because one is for entertainment and one is for productivity doesn't change anything. It's not like the EULA is a forever binding contract - if it were there wouldn't be any need for these negotiations. EULA's have been and continue to be uncertain legal territory (not quite a contract)
The difference is that the content produced in Photoshop is entirely divorced from the software that created it--art touched up in Photoshop does not by nature require any of the Adobe-owned assets that reside in Photoshop. By contrast, displaying a game of Starcraft requires, naturally, the game of Starcraft. The creation and exhibition of the content here requires simultaneous display of assets owned by Blizzard.
A more apt comparison would be if an artist using Photoshop would like to specifically use the Photoshop logo in their creation. In which case, yes, they would need Adobe's direct permission.
On May 11 2010 04:25 KingPants wrote: How many programs can play music? How many programs can allow players to play a game of Starcraft?
I guess Adobe should also demand royalties from artists using PhotoShop. ;;
Let's just agree to disagree, this isn't getting nowhere.
The difference here is that Photoshop is designed to be a tool and Starcraft is designed to be a game. Just because you compare two things does not mean they are comparable.
Hey maybenexttime, I guess pizzas should demand royalties from people who eat them.
Starcraft is a piece of software, just like Photoshop. Just because one is for entertainment and one is for productivity doesn't change anything. It's not like the EULA is a forever binding contract - if it were there wouldn't be any need for these negotiations. EULA's have been and continue to be uncertain legal territory (not quite a contract)
The difference is that the content produced in Photoshop is entirely divorced from the software that created it--art touched up in Photoshop does not by nature require any of the Adobe-owned assets that reside in Photoshop. By contrast, displaying a game of Starcraft requires, naturally, the game of Starcraft. The creation and exhibition of the content here requires simultaneous display of assets owned by Blizzard.
A more apt comparison would be if an artist using Photoshop would like to specifically use the Photoshop logo in their creation. In which case, yes, they would need Adobe's direct permission.
In that case, if they make a video of game and broadcast it on the TV but not live, does that count as using StarCraft to display a game of StarCraft or are they actually using Media Player or some other program to display it? I'm talking about broadcasting a game of BW already in a video format.
If that wouldn't count as using StarCraft, then that'd be pretty absurd.
On May 11 2010 05:26 Entitygm wrote: I'm glad you brought up use of music in movies/tv though. The company pays a royalty, that much is certain (I'm surprised KeSPA doesn't already do this), but that should be the artist's compensation. It comes down to a fundamental difference of opinion on how much right an artist has to derivations of his creation. If Jay-Z pays daft punk or whoever $10,000 for the right to remix one of their songs, and his version goes on to become a major hit and he earns $10,000,000 off of it, does daft punk have the right to demand a percentage of that, on top of the fee already received, or was the initial fee the end of it? I certainly don't think they'd be allowed to come in and demand a look at exactly how much he earned off of it, and have a say in how it's used in the future. The compensation has already been given
I dunno how many times this has to be repeated but KeSPA did pay for broadcast rights for BW!
On May 11 2010 06:31 maybenexttime wrote: In that case, if they make a video of game and broadcast it on the TV but not live, does that count as using StarCraft to display a game of StarCraft or are they actually using Media Player or some other program to display it? I'm talking about broadcasting a game of BW already in a video format.
If that wouldn't count as using StarCraft, then that'd be pretty absurd.
I would imagine it still counts regardless of the format of display--it contains art assets (images, sounds, etc.) owned by Blizzard. Whether you choose to photograph, videotape, or record audio of those assets, they still belong to Blizzard.
The main problem with IP (Intellectual Property) rights on this issue is that Korean Law does not abide by the same laws as the US, nor does China or other countries who often copy other peoples IP and turn a profit from it. International IP statements (statements used to bridge gaps between different countries' IP law) were not contracted into BW's license, so KeSPA has never had to pay Blizzard anything for using Blizzards IP (starcraft) to make a huge profit.
After years of negotiation and getting no where, Blizzard realized its mistakes (mainly in part to KeSPA not being ethical and paying minimal fees to Blizzard for the use of their intellectual property to turn a profit) and is really handing it back to KeSPA for burning that bridge down hardcore for the last 6 years. Now KeSPA wants to pay minimal royalties as if its done nothing wrong.
Most of the requests that Blizzard has made, according to the English translation released just recently, are reasonable. In the Korean release, the requests were spun a little to exaggerate the point. These PR responses are crafted by a professional, its not just state of fact. Its done the same way politicians omit information when they try to slander their political rival. For example:
However, Blizzard has asserted not the right as a copyright but unreasonable demands as following.
1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year 2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan 3. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement 4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos 5. Right to audit KeSPA
So, these are the unreasonable requests blizzard has made.
1 - Contract term is set to 1 year so that blizzard can review and rewrite the contract each year if needed. If KeSPA does stuff that blizzard doesn't like, they get the boot. No permanent usage contract. Its in there so that Blizzard can fire the KeSPA if they want.
2 - Blizzard wants oversight of how their product is marketed. If KeSPA wants to use a Porn site as a sponsor, Blizzard can say GTFO. They aren't trying to control, they just want the ability to step in if they have to. Its pretty standard stuff.
3 - Licensing Fee, accepted standard.
4 - Ownership of materials, not so standard, but it depends on the context. It would be great if we could actually see the contract to see the legal jargon used. Most likely KeSPA gets to use the materials, and make money off it, Blizzard just wants the rights to pull it down, remove it, or use it themselves in their own marketing. We don't know what that really means though without access to the contract.
5 - Right to Audit KeSPA. They don't trust KeSPA, I wouldn't either with their history of being unethical.
Seems pretty reasonable to me.
All in all though, we really don't know much about it other than the very limited information provided. We really need to see the exact contracts and fee amounts to be able to determine if they are reasonable.
On May 11 2010 06:49 Razor[cF] wrote: The main problem with IP (Intellectual Property) rights on this issue is that Korean Law does not abide by the same laws as the US, nor does China or other countries who often copy other peoples IP and turn a profit from it. International IP statements (statements used to bridge gaps between different countries' IP law) were not contracted into BW's license, so KeSPA has never had to pay Blizzard anything for using Blizzards IP (starcraft) to make a huge profit.
After years of negotiation and getting no where, Blizzard realized its mistakes (mainly in part to KeSPA not being ethical and paying minimal fees to Blizzard for the use of their intellectual property to turn a profit) and is really handing it back to KeSPA for burning that bridge down hardcore for the last 6 years. Now KeSPA wants to pay minimal royalties as if its done nothing wrong.
Most of the requests that Blizzard has made, according to the English translation released just recently, are reasonable. In the Korean release, the requests were spun a little to exaggerate the point. These PR responses are crafted by a professional, its not just state of fact. Its done the same way politicians omit information when they try to slander their political rival. For example:
However, Blizzard has asserted not the right as a copyright but unreasonable demands as following.
1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year 2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan 3. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement 4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos 5. Right to audit KeSPA
So, these are the unreasonable requests blizzard has made.
1 - Contract term is set to 1 year so that blizzard can review and rewrite the contract each year if needed. If KeSPA does stuff that blizzard doesn't like, they get the boot. No permanent usage contract. Its in there so that Blizzard can fire the KeSPA if they want.
2 - Blizzard wants oversight of how their product is marketed. If KeSPA wants to use a Porn site as a sponsor, Blizzard can say GTFO. They aren't trying to control, they just want the ability to step in if they have to. Its pretty standard stuff.
3 - Licensing Fee, accepted standard.
4 - Ownership of materials, not so standard, but it depends on the context. It would be great if we could actually see the contract to see the legal jargon used. Most likely KeSPA gets to use the materials, and make money off it, Blizzard just wants the rights to pull it down, remove it, or use it themselves in their own marketing. We don't know what that really means though without access to the contract.
5 - Right to Audit KeSPA. They don't trust KeSPA, I wouldn't either with their history of being unethical.
Seems pretty reasonable to me.
All in all though, we really don't know much about it other than the very limited information provided. We really need to see the exact contracts and fee amounts to be able to determine if they are reasonable.
International Law is such fun isn't it. I don't know the whole truth of the matter, it sounds like both parties are at fault to a degree, but this case is more important than KeSPA. They don't sound like a very reputable company, but if granted this degree of control over a tournament league what sort of message does that send to others? Should HD/husky/TL be afraid of takedown notices issued by Blizzard for all of their content? Should wikis be afraid of getting raid for violating IP laws? I'm not trying to paint a slippery slope here that's a very real possibility for anyone profitting off of the property. If TL puts up an ad for one of Blizzard's competitors or Activision doesn't approve of livestream any more and demands all SC content be on ustream only, this case would set a precedent for taking it down.
KeSPA should have been paying some royalty to Blizzard for a while, I agree, but it certainly shouldn't be controlled by them, directly or indirectly through threat of legal action. Call it paranoia but Activision's history with DRM isn't stellar, although the PR machine keeping it quiet is, and I'm an EFF member
KingPants what part of KESPA agreed to pay some royalty fees do you not understand? Not only is it in the first post, but several posters have tried to get that through your head.
Kespa is the organizations that sponsor players and provide them with literally everything. Blizzard is trying to curtail this by saying these organizations will have to turn over their rights to any given player at anytime.
Capiche? From Kespa's point of view, some of the terms are ridiculous.
Seeing as KeSPA basically killed of GOMs SC-tourney, which incidentally was sponsored by Blizzard, I wouldn't trust them one bit when they blame Blizzard for hindering further development of e-sports. They've been leeching and making strange regulations for years, and Blizzard wanting better control of such an organization handling their newest game is far from unacceptable. Some of the demands may seem harsh, but hardly surprising concidering the organization they're aimed against.
On May 11 2010 07:21 StarStruck wrote: KingPants what part of KESPA agreed to pay some royalty fees do you not understand? Not only is it in the first post, but several posters have tried to get that through your head.
"A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position." -wikipedia
Kespa is the organizations that sponsor players and provide them with literally everything. Blizzard is trying to curtail this by saying these organizations will have to turn over their rights to any given player at anytime.
Do you know that most players that are sponsored by Kespa organisations make very little money and have no opportunity for career growth? Many people believe that these children are being exploited by Kespa.
Capiche? From Kespa's point of view, some of the terms are ridiculous.
On May 11 2010 07:39 sushiman wrote: Seeing as KeSPA basically killed of GOMs SC-tourney, which incidentally was sponsored by Blizzard, I wouldn't trust them one bit when they blame Blizzard for hindering further development of e-sports. They've been leeching and making strange regulations for years, and Blizzard wanting better control of such an organization handling their newest game is far from unacceptable. Some of the demands may seem harsh, but hardly surprising concidering the organization they're aimed against.
They likely killed the series off because it was fairly unpopular, especially compared to OSL and MSL, and had very little actually going for it. It was cool for foreigners because you could hear Tasteless talk about the pandabearguy over and over but for Koreans it was a huge step down from OSL and even MSL.
CJ owns Gretech and OGN so why hemorrhage money when you already have the most successful individual league around.
On May 11 2010 07:21 StarStruck wrote: KingPants what part of KESPA agreed to pay some royalty fees do you not understand? Not only is it in the first post, but several posters have tried to get that through your head.
"A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position." -wikipedia
Kespa is the organizations that sponsor players and provide them with literally everything. Blizzard is trying to curtail this by saying these organizations will have to turn over their rights to any given player at anytime.
Do you know that most players that are sponsored by Kespa organisations make very little money and have no opportunity for career growth? Many people believe that these children are being exploited by Kespa.
Capiche? From Kespa's point of view, some of the terms are ridiculous.
Too bad, why doesn't Kespa make their own game?
Blizzard made the game, KeSPA used it in a way they didn't imagine (outside of battle.net, televised etc.). Blizzard feels it didn't earn enough from this and now wants a stake in the pro-gaming circuit, something they did not build. Yeah Kespa did it using a blizzard game, but that doesn't discredit their work or give blizzard any sort of ownership stake in it. They can pull SC2 if they want to make that colossal mistake, but that's about the only option left. Sometimes you create something, and it's used in ways you didn't expect, even by others for profit. Do they deserve some compensation? Of course, that's why they charge money for the game. Maybe Kespa is a horrible company, but this isn't about the bit players at all it's about the principle of it.
Since you pulled out the logical fallacy card, then immediately proceeded to attack kespa for its pay rates and explotion: Ad Hominem - also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument toward the person" or "argument against the person"), is an attempt to persuade which links the validity of a premise to a characteristic or belief of the person advocating the premise.[1] The ad hominem is a classic logical fallacy.[2]
Sometimes the things we create grow beyond our control, and trying to fight them can lead to our own destruction. This was the folly of the Xel'Naga in creating the Zerg - don't you know lore
On May 11 2010 08:15 Entitygm wrote: Since you pulled out the logical fallacy card, then immediately proceeded to attack kespa for its pay rates and explotion: Ad Hominem - also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument toward the person" or "argument against the person"), is an attempt to persuade which links the validity of a premise to a characteristic or belief of the person advocating the premise.[1] The ad hominem is a classic logical fallacy.[2]
To be clear I was responding to his point that Kespa provides the players with everything.
On May 11 2010 08:21 buhhy wrote: If you filmed yourself painting in photoshop, then post in on youtube, does Adobe own your video or that piece of art you created?
Actually there's a guy who does just that, and I'm not sure the answer. Also occured to me: Video Professor. He makes videos using MS (or other) software, which he then sells to people as an instructional tool. I expect he pays MS a licensing fee just like anyone else using it commercially does, but does MS by default become a majority shareholder in his company, or have any say over how he uses it? I sure hope not
On May 11 2010 08:13 Lazerbeems wrote: They likely killed the series off because it was fairly unpopular, especially compared to OSL and MSL, and had very little actually going for it. It was cool for foreigners because you could hear Tasteless talk about the pandabearguy over and over but for Koreans it was a huge step down from OSL and even MSL.
This is going to result in a circular argument because part of the reason that it was unpopular was because it was not recognized as "official" by KeSPA, and because pro-teams started preventing prominent players from competing in it.
Everyone just keeps hating on Kespa, but am I seriously the only one who think Blizzard is being an idiot as well? They sound so freaking selfish, did you see that list of demands?? It's almost as if Blizzard is saying "It's our game so any profit you make off of it is ours, and anything you do must go through us, and the success Starcraft had in korea was primarily due to us because we made the game". It's not Blizzard that made Starcraft into the huge success in Korea, but the Korean media & companies that decided to try and blow it up to be an E-sport. I'm not saying Kespa is good, they're absolutely horrible in some aspects, but if everyone is going to be moving together (Kespa & all the teams & companies), then everyone loses with Blizzard's decision to try and maximize profits.
On May 11 2010 09:33 Wings wrote: Everyone just keeps hating on Kespa, but am I seriously the only one who think Blizzard is being an idiot as well? They sound so freaking selfish, did you see that list of demands?? It's almost as if Blizzard is saying "It's our game so any profit you make off of it is ours, and anything you do must go through us, and the success Starcraft had in korea was primarily due to us because we made the game". It's not Blizzard that made Starcraft into the huge success in Korea, but the Korean media & companies that decided to try and blow it up to be an E-sport. I'm not saying Kespa is good, they're absolutely horrible in some aspects, but if everyone is going to be moving together (Kespa & all the teams & companies), then everyone loses with Blizzard's decision to try and maximize profits.
It's not just you. Look at the polls on some previous page. Most of the people think Blizz is being an idiot here.
I don't really thing its worth arguing about whether Blizz actually owns the content created with starcraft (replays and the maps), unless you have a law degree in international and Korean laws. But one thing remains uncertain, and that is whether SC2 is actually good enough to replace SCBW in professional scene. As one of the Korean guys already said Koreans don't care anything special for SC2 because there are other good games on the market, and I completely agree. The mere fact that SCBW was such a good game doesn't automatically make SC2 a good game. Who can guarantee that SC2 want end up the same way like WC3 and SCBW did in the US/EU.
I back Blizzard on some of these terms. But I dont think Blizzard has a right to request not casting their games. To me in eSports, the Software being used for the game is no different then the ball being used on the field in soccer.
Can you imagine Mikasa soccer balls demanding that all soccer teams not use their ball or they would get sued... how foolish is that? Is watching someone play Starcraft more fun then watching someone that would play super Mario Brothers... Sure. But should Blizzard get paid for that? They are not providing it for broad casting or movie entertainment.
Software being used in e-Sports is nothing like a soccer ball, it is more expensive to produce a high-end video game and balance it. Lots of money goes into it and other people are going to use their creation to make money. I think Blizzard is right here - granted some of their requests (if true) are a little overreaching but Kespa wouldn't be here if it wasn't for Blizzard - at least no where in the capacity that it is today.
On May 12 2010 06:30 anomaly0 wrote: Software being used in e-Sports is nothing like a soccer ball, it is more expensive to produce a high-end video game and balance it. Lots of money goes into it and other people are going to use their creation to make money. I think Blizzard is right here - granted some of their requests (if true) are a little overreaching but Kespa wouldn't be here if it wasn't for Blizzard - at least no where in the capacity that it is today.
On May 11 2010 08:21 buhhy wrote: If you filmed yourself painting in photoshop, then post in on youtube, does Adobe own your video or that piece of art you created?
Though Photoshop is more expensive, it is also much more complicated than a game and took much more expertise.
Im not a layer, but if one look at the scrabble-link under section "Tournaments" and "Books on Scrabble" and not the "Game sets" section(this is referring to making a copy of the game), it becomes unclear (at-least to me) if Blizzard could win under US law. I mean it says:
Court of Appeals.... ...... has held that the playing of a game in public is not a "performance"
And one can make a strategy guide, providing it doesn't:
"reproduces "more than it ha[s] to in order to produce a marketable [strategy] guide"
But it seems like an unclear law. I also think there is a difference in including a song in a movie, because the public will be enjoying the song directly, but are the public enjoying Starcraft at tournaments, yes, but they cant play it. Personally I feel like IP-rights shouldn't get out of hand, or it will put society in a straitjacket.
i'm actually surprised at the number of people taking kespa's side. just try to remember a time you've heard kespa's name associated with a positive act? they are just a bunch of greedy bureaucratic idiots who are trying their best to stay alive with SC2 looming around the corner.
maybe they are, but if anyone is greedy here its blizzard.the demands speak for themselves
On May 04 2010 13:38 Synwave wrote: Considering the corruption of KESPA and their related teams and star players I have no wish to see them in charge of anything. I have lost all respect for Korean e-sports as it is currently organized. Blizzard has a record of doing everything they can to help e-sports around the globe in regards to their games. That they want licensing fees is not greedy, it is a valid and fair business model.
On the one hand you have an organization with a record of mishandling and bullying, being greedy and out of control. On the other hand you have a company that goes out of its way to promote events and work with sponsers to create great events.
Guess which one I side with and believe in more.
let me ask.. what record does blizzard have of helping e-sports? didn't they choke the dota scene? they nearly eliminated WoW due to their demands for royalties for broadcasting blizzard is just another corporation trying to milk all the money they can for their shareholders, nobody else. e-sports is not a priority for them.
In the wow world their has been some talk of what blizz is asking for companies like MLG to run its tourneys and it seems like a reasonable ammount. If they arre asking for simmilar from Kespa then id say blizzard is justified in that.
fuck blizzard WoW spoiled them and now they want everything their way like a spoiled little brat i hope kespa continues with SC1 and the community stays with SC1 SC2 is nowhere near as good as the first anyway
On May 11 2010 07:21 StarStruck wrote: KingPants what part of KESPA agreed to pay some royalty fees do you not understand? Not only is it in the first post, but several posters have tried to get that through your head.
"A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position." -wikipedia
Kespa is the organizations that sponsor players and provide them with literally everything. Blizzard is trying to curtail this by saying these organizations will have to turn over their rights to any given player at anytime.
Do you know that most players that are sponsored by Kespa organisations make very little money and have no opportunity for career growth? Many people believe that these children are being exploited by Kespa.
Capiche? From Kespa's point of view, some of the terms are ridiculous.
Too bad, why doesn't Kespa make their own game?
1) That is not a strawman. 2) These children can leave whenever they want. Look at Ret and Nony. They left when they decided to leave. No one forced them to stay. Same with the kids.
I don't have a law degree and I can't comment on the legality of the issue. I can say though that I think if a person pays money for a product they should be able to do what they want with it without having to answer to the people they purchased it from, short of duplicating and re-selling it in the case of media.
Ultimately, the IP belongs to Blizzard, so it's within their legal right to deny use by other parties that wish to use it in a for-profit manner (though whether or not they're making a profit from it makes no real difference). By using a trademarked name and IP (namely, Starcraft), and televising it, it's within Blizzard's legal rights to ask for compensation. Additionally, if you were to, say, sell maps for Starcraft, Blizzard could also seek compensation.
Ultimately, if you are making money in any way shape or form off of content created by Blizzard, it's within their legal right to seek compensation. KeSPA really has no leverage on that issue in particular -- the Starcraft name (in the realm of gaming) belongs to Blizzard, and they, ultimately, have the last say on how it is used.
To briefly address the previous poster that mentioned Photoshop: Adobe could ask for the video to be taken down, though that would be incredibly bad for their business as their products are specifically designed to create content in a variety of mediums. If you were selling those videos, you would most likely need to contact Adobe for legal approval before doing so (and you would most likely have to pay a licensing fee).
On May 13 2010 07:10 Gearman wrote: Ultimately, the IP belongs to Blizzard, so it's within their legal right to deny use by other parties that wish to use it in a for-profit manner (though whether or not they're making a profit from it makes no real difference). By using a trademarked name and IP (namely, Starcraft), and televising it, it's within Blizzard's legal rights to ask for compensation. Additionally, if you were to, say, sell maps for Starcraft, Blizzard could also seek compensation.
Ultimately, if you are making money in any way shape or form off of content created by Blizzard, it's within their legal right to seek compensation. KeSPA really has no leverage on that issue in particular -- the Starcraft name (in the realm of gaming) belongs to Blizzard, and they, ultimately, have the last say on how it is used.
To briefly address the previous poster that mentioned Photoshop: Adobe could ask for the video to be taken down, though that would be incredibly bad for their business as their products are specifically designed to create content in a variety of mediums. If you were selling those videos, you would most likely need to contact Adobe for legal approval before doing so (and you would most likely have to pay a licensing fee).
Nope, Kespa does have leverage like one of the poster said, "International Law aka Korean Law." I think Kespa knows what they are doing and I think its blizzards actions thats wrong when Kespa is willing to pay the fee and everything else.
On May 12 2010 06:30 anomaly0 wrote: Software being used in e-Sports is nothing like a soccer ball, it is more expensive to produce a high-end video game and balance it. Lots of money goes into it and other people are going to use their creation to make money. I think Blizzard is right here - granted some of their requests (if true) are a little overreaching but Kespa wouldn't be here if it wasn't for Blizzard - at least no where in the capacity that it is today.
On May 11 2010 08:21 buhhy wrote: If you filmed yourself painting in photoshop, then post in on youtube, does Adobe own your video or that piece of art you created?
Though Photoshop is more expensive, it is also much more complicated than a game and took much more expertise.
lol what? theres no way creating a an application is "much more complicated" than a game.
On May 12 2010 06:30 anomaly0 wrote: Software being used in e-Sports is nothing like a soccer ball, it is more expensive to produce a high-end video game and balance it. Lots of money goes into it and other people are going to use their creation to make money. I think Blizzard is right here - granted some of their requests (if true) are a little overreaching but Kespa wouldn't be here if it wasn't for Blizzard - at least no where in the capacity that it is today.
On May 11 2010 08:21 buhhy wrote: If you filmed yourself painting in photoshop, then post in on youtube, does Adobe own your video or that piece of art you created?
Though Photoshop is more expensive, it is also much more complicated than a game and took much more expertise.
lol what? theres no way creating a an application is "much more complicated" than a game.
Correct. As Carmack put it infront of Nasa: "this [Rockey science/aerospace] isn't that complicated. It is simple compared to many things in this modern world. The thing that I do in video games is far more complicated that aerospace work."
with that said Photoshop is alot of work but it isn't more complicated that creating a AAA video game title.
edit: sorry for derailing it further. he stepped on my toes as a video game developer.
On May 12 2010 06:30 anomaly0 wrote: Software being used in e-Sports is nothing like a soccer ball, it is more expensive to produce a high-end video game and balance it. Lots of money goes into it and other people are going to use their creation to make money. I think Blizzard is right here - granted some of their requests (if true) are a little overreaching but Kespa wouldn't be here if it wasn't for Blizzard - at least no where in the capacity that it is today.
On May 11 2010 08:21 buhhy wrote: If you filmed yourself painting in photoshop, then post in on youtube, does Adobe own your video or that piece of art you created?
Though Photoshop is more expensive, it is also much more complicated than a game and took much more expertise.
lol what? theres no way creating a an application is "much more complicated" than a game.
Correct. As Carmack put it infront of Nasa: "this [Rockey science/aerospace] isn't that complicated. It is simple compared to many things in this modern world. The thing that I do in video games is far more complicated that aerospace work."
with that said Photoshop is alot of work but it isn't more complicated that creating a AAA video game title.
edit: sorry for derailing it further. he stepped on my toes as a video game developer.
Carmack strictly works on graphics engine design (pretty much a one man army at id). He HAS to do complicated work to compete with other companies that use large teams.
Blizzard has an inflated ego now, perhaps because of WoW and it's merging with Activision.
They are in the right to request a royalty fee but stepping in and taking control and profits of a business other people created is pretty low.
I feel like it's this simple: Blizzard created the game, people who are playing bought the game. GG.
If HD and Husky get so popular where hundreds of thousands of people are tuning in to watch their casts, is Blizzard going to step in and ask to have control and take a cut of the profits?
That's not something Blizzard created even though a game they created is being played. As long as each player bought their copy I think Blizzard should back off.
i am just glad in knowing that the chinese will probably just hack and pirate the game. probably add a lan feature while they are at it. they really dont give a fuck when it comes to copyright laws, and they will not start now.
thank god, now that will make blizzards mouth taste sour!
One of the things that has been said is that Blizzard owns any maps and mini-games created using their Starcraft 2 Map Editor. I assume you give them this right by agreeing to the Terms of Service.
This is no different than Adobe owning the rights to anything you create with Photoshop, or Autodesk owning anything you create with AutoCAD. Well, my guess is that the only difference is that the latter two companies do not make you sign a ridiculous ToS when purchasing their products.
IANAL, but I really doubt that Blizzard owning maps that you create would hold up in court, regardless of ToS. There is far too much precedent of using applications to create content that the application owner has no rights to. This is pretty much true for just about every piece of application software ever developed.
KeSPA made good business by using Blizzard's product, by showing it off to SKorea in the form of the proleagues, this is awesome, but you can't deny that KeSPA are using Blizzards hard work to make money for themselves, without the game there wouldn't be this dicussion, i don't see why KeSPA feel they have ownership over the rights to televise BW in Korea (Just remember GOM leagues)
On May 14 2010 02:13 Muaziz wrote: One of the things that has been said is that Blizzard owns any maps and mini-games created using their Starcraft 2 Map Editor. I assume you give them this right by agreeing to the Terms of Service.
This is no different than Adobe owning the rights to anything you create with Photoshop, or Autodesk owning anything you create with AutoCAD. Well, my guess is that the only difference is that the latter two companies do not make you sign a ridiculous ToS when purchasing their products.
IANAL, but I really doubt that Blizzard owning maps that you create would hold up in court, regardless of ToS. There is far too much precedent of using applications to create content that the application owner has no rights to. This is pretty much true for just about every piece of application software ever developed.
I guess that's why Icefrog wont make DotA in sc2. From what I heard Blizzard has previously asked Icefrog for money to. Guess they like to cut in to other peoples creations and grab some money for something Blizzard "created". I think it's bull shit. If I sell you some hardware tools and you build a amusement park does not make me the rightful owner of the park because it was my tools that were used to build the amusement park. Blizzard provides the tools, let other people do the work, then take to money.
This is all political agenda by Kespa. They will eventually give in when Blizzard releases SC2 and there bluff hasn't worked. Starcraft 2 will bring in a bunch of new revenue for both, even with these so called unreasonable demands. Both companies want money, but ultimately Blizzard has all the cards to deal out.
If Starcraft's esports scene died, Blizzard would still exist. If Starcraft's esports scene died, KESPA would no longer exist.
Blizzard will win this one, and from what I've heard will not only make it so KESPA cant touch SC2, but will also make it so that SC1 cant be used unless all of their demands are met.
Whoever has the gold, makes the rules. In this case, its the game developer.
I can't possibly get the mindset of these people playing devil's advocate for KespA
KeSPA does not, has never, and will never give one tiny bit of a shit about you or any foreigner
Taking these features into consideration, if a game is to become a popular E-sports competition, the game developer and the E-sports organization must have a flexible relationship. If a game achieves success as an iconic E-sports competition (note: KeSPA does not name Starcraft specifically), and the developer pursues profits by declaring that their copyright is valid in the sports industry as well, then that is a large obstacle for E-sports’ growth and establishment as a future sports-entertainment industry.
It's clearly obvious that copyright does actually mean something in Korea. Why the hell else would Special Force and Sudden Attack exist?
Doesnt seem right for blizzard to try to own Kespa and everything. Blizz should just be happy that E-sports make their games more popular and thus drive up sales + royalties from E-sports associations.
Taking these features into consideration, if a game is to become a popular E-sports competition, the game developer and the E-sports organization must have a flexible relationship. If a game achieves success as an iconic E-sports competition (note: KeSPA does not name Starcraft specifically), and the developer pursues profits by declaring that their copyright is valid in the sports industry as well, then that is a large obstacle for E-sports’ growth and establishment as a future sports-entertainment industry.
It's clearly obvious that copyright does actually mean something in Korea. Why the hell else would Special Force and Sudden Attack exist?
United states has baseball and American Football. In most countries these sports are not that big except United states. Do we see the major companies which make up NFL and such give a damn about other countries?
On May 14 2010 07:05 Aduromors wrote: I can't possibly get the mindset of these people playing devil's advocate for KespA
KeSPA does not, has never, and will never give one tiny bit of a shit about you or any foreigner
Taking these features into consideration, if a game is to become a popular E-sports competition, the game developer and the E-sports organization must have a flexible relationship. If a game achieves success as an iconic E-sports competition (note: KeSPA does not name Starcraft specifically), and the developer pursues profits by declaring that their copyright is valid in the sports industry as well, then that is a large obstacle for E-sports’ growth and establishment as a future sports-entertainment industry.
It's clearly obvious that copyright does actually mean something in Korea. Why the hell else would Special Force and Sudden Attack exist?
United states has baseball and American Football. In most countries these sports are not that big except United states. Do we see the major companies which make up NFL and such give a damn about other countries?
What you just said made no sense, having read the people you quoted.
As Day[9] said, this is all a ploy to get you to support KeSPA. Blizzard has been reasonably trying to negotiate for the past two years with KeSPA almost ignoring them, but as soon as SC2 hits a release date and Blizzard gets tired of trying to deal, they drop a bombshell of unreasonable demands on KeSPA (which is a regular negotiating move, it basically means we're done with you, no deal) and walk away from the table. KeSPA suddenly starts crying to the public now and only now. Why? Because they think they can make it look like they're the victim if they play it right.
On May 14 2010 07:05 Aduromors wrote: I can't possibly get the mindset of these people playing devil's advocate for KespA
KeSPA does not, has never, and will never give one tiny bit of a shit about you or any foreigner
Taking these features into consideration, if a game is to become a popular E-sports competition, the game developer and the E-sports organization must have a flexible relationship. If a game achieves success as an iconic E-sports competition (note: KeSPA does not name Starcraft specifically), and the developer pursues profits by declaring that their copyright is valid in the sports industry as well, then that is a large obstacle for E-sports’ growth and establishment as a future sports-entertainment industry.
It's clearly obvious that copyright does actually mean something in Korea. Why the hell else would Special Force and Sudden Attack exist?
United states has baseball and American Football. In most countries these sports are not that big except United states. Do we see the major companies which make up NFL and such give a damn about other countries?
What you just said made no sense, having read the people you quoted.
As Day[9] said, this is all a ploy to get you to support KeSPA. Blizzard has been reasonably trying to negotiate for the past two years with KeSPA almost ignoring them, but as soon as SC2 hits a release date and Blizzard gets tired of trying to deal, they drop a bombshell of unreasonable demands on KeSPA (which is a regular negotiating move, it basically means we're done with you, no deal) and walk away from the table. KeSPA suddenly starts crying to the public now and only now. Why? Because they think they can make it look like they're the victim if they play it right.
I'm just saying, lay it in the hands of blizzard, and it will just be about their profits. They say they will devote to e-sports but we all know that's a big lie. That's why I support KeSPA.
On May 13 2010 23:35 epik151 wrote: Blizzard has an inflated ego now, perhaps because of WoW and it's merging with Activision.
They are in the right to request a royalty fee but stepping in and taking control and profits of a business other people created is pretty low.
I feel like it's this simple: Blizzard created the game, people who are playing bought the game. GG.
If HD and Husky get so popular where hundreds of thousands of people are tuning in to watch their casts, is Blizzard going to step in and ask to have control and take a cut of the profits?
That's not something Blizzard created even though a game they created is being played. As long as each player bought their copy I think Blizzard should back off.
I completely agree. I don't like the idea of any company completely controlling a secondary market their product creates.
At the end of the day, in twelve years Blizzard has done very little to foster or further e-sports. They've made the games, no doubt, but they have contributed very little else to e-sports in general. KeSPA, love them or hate them, have actually spent the past decade creating e-sports as we know it today. I think for Blizzard to come in and ask for anything more than a reasonable royalty, to say nothing of Supreme Emperor style executive control over an industry they have basically fuck all to do with, is ballsy, arrogant, and fiendishly wishful thinking. If they don't smarten up and watch themselves they're going to hang themselves by their own rope. There's being aggressive in business and there's being stupid. This is being stupid.
Personally trying to reconcile two points of view:
1) I loathe Kespa, don't trust them worth a damn, and would not shed a tear if they ceased to exist right this moment. Some other, hopefully better, organization would form and pick up the slack.
2) I have major issues with claiming any jurisdiction over secondary markets by Blizzard. Blizzard, in my opinion, is well within their rights to claim royalties of any amount really. It is their game, they can sell it for whatever price they want and charge whatever they want to allow it to be broadcast on TV. That is where their rights cease in my opinion, regardless of what BS copyright law might say. Claiming ownership on all broadcasts and secondary market creations is absolutely wrong and I do not wish to support that activity in any way.
Yes, Kespa suck. However I feel that right now they're the lesser of the two evils. Let's get rid of the Blizzard juggernaut now, before they screw us with a monopoly. Anyone with money sense can see that's what they're aiming for.
Once we've eliminated that problem, then we can deal with Kespa. Fighting on two fronts is a waste of time and energy when we can solve this problem in a quick and efficient manner. I don't see why it can't be done. After all it's the community that made this all possible in the first place.
IMO KeSPA does not deserve any praise for what they did for Starcraft in Korea. Blizzard made the game, the fans and players promoted it. KeSPA was just there to take advantage of the situation. If it was not KeSPA, it would have been some other big corporation that just wanted to take control and make profit off of something that naturally became popular.
On May 15 2010 05:37 CScythe wrote: IMO KeSPA does not deserve any praise for what they did for Starcraft in Korea. Blizzard made the game, the fans and players promoted it. KeSPA was just there to take advantage of the situation. If it was not KeSPA, it would have been some other big corporation that just wanted to take control and make profit off of something that naturally became popular.
Someone had to take the risk and initiative. There are numerous other games that failed where there were tons of losses when it was tried to be made popular.
On May 15 2010 05:37 CScythe wrote: IMO KeSPA does not deserve any praise for what they did for Starcraft in Korea. Blizzard made the game, the fans and players promoted it. KeSPA was just there to take advantage of the situation. If it was not KeSPA, it would have been some other big corporation that just wanted to take control and make profit off of something that naturally became popular.
Someone had to take the risk and initiative. There are numerous other games that failed where there were tons of losses when it was tried to be made popular.
On May 15 2010 03:18 Kashmir wrote: That's exactly how I feel about it Plethora.
Yes, Kespa suck. However I feel that right now they're the lesser of the two evils. Let's get rid of the Blizzard juggernaut now, before they screw us with a monopoly. Anyone with money sense can see that's what they're aiming for.
Once we've eliminated that problem, then we can deal with Kespa. Fighting on two fronts is a waste of time and energy when we can solve this problem in a quick and efficient manner. I don't see why it can't be done. After all it's the community that made this all possible in the first place.
On May 15 2010 05:37 CScythe wrote: IMO KeSPA does not deserve any praise for what they did for Starcraft in Korea. Blizzard made the game, the fans and players promoted it. KeSPA was just there to take advantage of the situation. If it was not KeSPA, it would have been some other big corporation that just wanted to take control and make profit off of something that naturally became popular.
Someone had to take the risk and initiative. There are numerous other games that failed where there were tons of losses when it was tried to be made popular.
On May 15 2010 03:18 Kashmir wrote: That's exactly how I feel about it Plethora.
Yes, Kespa suck. However I feel that right now they're the lesser of the two evils. Let's get rid of the Blizzard juggernaut now, before they screw us with a monopoly. Anyone with money sense can see that's what they're aiming for.
Once we've eliminated that problem, then we can deal with Kespa. Fighting on two fronts is a waste of time and energy when we can solve this problem in a quick and efficient manner. I don't see why it can't be done. After all it's the community that made this all possible in the first place.
What?
ITT: Very few people who know what they're talking about. Hope that helps explain the confusion.
The logic capability on this forum is astonishing, seeing the level of blind (Mostly American) fanboyism towards a company like Blizzard which is owned by Activision, which is owned by Vivendi Universal which in turn is owned by General Electric, which is basically the BIGGEST conglomerate in the WORLD, owned by very powerful oligarchs like Rockefeller. I would suggest strongly to READ the article to the fans of Blizzard.
Firstly, Kespa agreed to pay ROYALTIES to Blizzard for e-sports broadcasts and competitions. Outside of future IP right, That is where IP rights binding to a software developer like BLizzard end.
But, Blizzard then demands stifling stipulations to the negotiations(logical):
1. All KESPA-Blizzard legal contracts can be modified after one fiscal year. Any changes regarding increased royalties or any change can be implemented immediately thereafter. KESPA has NO say to future league changes unless agreed upon by Blizzard(General Electric).
2. BLIZZARD can audit KESPA at any point to see how much MONEY KESPA garnered during a fiscal year. IF Blizzard sees to it that KESPA MADE A CRAP load of money in one year, then the AUDIT will reveal the financials of Kespas Boon. Then, BLizzard will INCREASE royalty rates as a result of revealing audits of Kespa.
3. Ownership to the rights of Broadcast. Blizzard will own the pie on the backs all Korean engineered Broadcasts of future starcraft competitions. Plus a Licence fee, could be yearly bi-annaul, anything. Pure $$$$$$$$$
4. Any Player can be signed to an additional contract with COntract with Blizzard, with complete over-ride of Other stipulated contracts from Professional Starcraft teams.
5. All league transactions must be VERIFIED and authorized by Blizzard.
(Some people say that this is for the corporate image of Blizzard that they must protect. Remember they sell software. How can being a game developer suddenly transform their responsibilities as being content creators to game companies dicatating Corporate Public relations managers of Official League governments ? riddle me that Batman.
Further more, Do you think that Blizzard exists as a game developer not to make a ridiculous amount of money even possibly directing enhanced machiavellian techniques to accomplish massive Profit taking? Of course silly, Blizzard is a part of the Big Boys now. That is how the Boys roll. Take the money and control everything.
There are no needed moralistic debates, who is right or wrong at this juncture, Blizzard and Kespa. The outcome is what is pertinent to pay attention to regarding KESPA Vs. Blizzard's game outside of their game, Starcraft BroodWar. So it is neccessary to ignore who is right or wrong(Ad Hominem, appealing to emotion), which is blatantly clear (That legally Blizzard crossed the line) and gander at the real issue relevant to E-Sports. That issue is what is going to happen to the future of gaming into the 21st century? Well here is what I think:
~Gaming, massive immerse virtual competitions will be the growth engine in Sporting competition in the future. Growth in e-sports is so obvious now if you see the trends in society as a whole. ~
Unfortunately, the problem with the growth of E-sports currently has been the lack of a participating audience, this problem contributed by the popularity of athletic competitions like baseball etc. (Since audience volume or the Sports $Pie$ is mostly consumed by athletic sports entertainment). But time will march on through this century. And heavy sponsorships from the Biggies in the United States and Europe WILL make e-sports a reality. Big plans are being made to transform not only military protocol like Revolutions in military affairs (Unoccupied aerical Drones, or even digitally connected soldiers {see Metal Gear 2 and 4] connected to a central Network) but also the entertainment complex as well.
The question is why will big corporations sponsor E-sports competitions? Simply, easier managed audience (agenda to integrate digital entertainment with behavior), a chance to shape society into a new paradigm of digital convergence. We are being hooked up into the matrix surreptitously quicker than the public is aware of. The digital age is morphing itself to becoming full bore presense in 21st century. And most importantly Digital entertainment is A BIG plan of the politicians of present date, you know our rulers.
So my hypothesis, which is educated is that, E-sports will grow with or without KESPA and Korea. And, E-sports will grow with or without Blizzard. It is a must be( that is E-sports entertainment dynamics), a big dream to create massive e-sports complex for the ENTIRE Planet.
What do I think will happen to Blizzard? To be honest with you. I think blizzard will be successful in North America and in Europe. They will take control with the help of major sponsorship money, media cooperation like NBC( which is owned by GE by the way), and infrastructure building to create new leagues in North America and Europe. Kespa, will probably be successful in Korea, in spite of Starcraft 2 launching in North america and Europe. Newer Players in South Korea and children will grow up, they might defect to North American or European leagues to compete for the Starcraft 2 tournaments and team battles. Many South Koreans will stay faithful to Kespa, but Broodwar will become antiquated, in light of newer iterations and evolutions of Starcraft Blizzard updates North America and Europe with.
IF Blizzard fails to revolutionize E-sports( due to their destructive bold escoriating anti-social policies some other corporation like EA (Look who is behind EA, that's why they are that huge) or Take-Two will fill the void. Blizzard happens to be in an expedient postition to fully steer the course of E-sports to its proper direction at this moment( since Korea fostered and enabled Blizzard's Growth in E-sports domain). Since Koreans helped grow Starcraft and e-sports, Blizzard can realize its dream to become the anchor of the e-sports growing Oak tree. BLizzard's Starcraft 2 is coming out, The plan is to spread the e-sports business, bandwagoning the popularity of Starcraft 1, to Europe and North America. With or without Korea, which some of you have pointed out, eventually E-sports will become a major force in our society( remember we are wired now in 2010. Most developed countries have broad band access. Developed countries even the US did NOT Have reliabe Broadband access in 2000).
it's easy to see both points of view, but in my opinion blizzard is asking for a couple of very unreasonable things including the auditing (which is an absurd and even offensive way to look at 'friendly' negotiations) and rights of ownership on all the material kespa produces.
The way to look at this is simple, as explained by KESPA e-Sports are borderline becoming almost a 'sport' in a way. that's the way KESPA looks at it, while the way Blizzard looks at it is, we need you to pay $ if you want to run our copyright material, and they are in the right to. HOWEVER, they shouldn't be. The Constitutional Provision of Copyright and the Copyright Act that all countrys abide by (the united states was one of the last countrys to sign it) is OBVIOUSLY not designed for eSports...
if this was an actual sport NATURALLY blizzard couldn't have a right to claim right of ownership over any footage and wouldn't be allowed to interfere in any way with the sponsorship, marketing etc. KESPA is like "NHL or NBA" here, so imagine if "John Basketball" the creator of Basketball appeared out of nowhere and said "I invented, copyrighted and pattented basketball, so anything you, the NBA broadcasts any material or new 'play' your players and coaches may come up with; I OWN, and you have to pay me a % (that we'll agree on) for every league that you host in the future. Of course, this doesnt affect ONLY "Nicholas NBA, owner of the NBA" it affects all of its players as well, as they have to pay a high percentage to "John Basketball" the prizes for the leagues and interests of sponsors drop, suddenly Lebron James can't live off of Basketball and has to find a job at McDonald's because 'John Basketball' is too damn selfish.
However this can't possibly happen because Basketball involves action and things such as walking, you can't really copyright ideas, only solid products, you can copyright a video of lebron james walking (with his authorization) make copies and sell it. But you can't say that you own Lebron James' right to walk.
Sadly, as KESPA states, this is NOT a sport, its right in between, and while KESPA's Stand is : THIS IS A SPORT TOO, LET US GROW AS SUCH FOR THE SAKE THE FUTURE OF E-SPORTS (and of course the sake of their pockets)
BLIZZARD says: NO, we're looking at this as if it was a new album by the Jonas Brothers, you have no right of reproduction and if you want to continue to play your cd in public places, or throw it on TV, it is considered a 'performance' and you don't own the rights to this, so we need to come to an unresonable agreement where I just get more $ than I am already making, so thanks a lot for the free publicity and what you've done to help our game become as big as a Sport, but from now on, you're gonna have to pay us if you want to continue to do this. (looking after their pockets as well)
SOLUTION: Fix the Copyright Act! how? go to the UN and teach them about E-Sports. so yeah... there is really no way to go (at least not for a few years until world leaders decide esports need different rules, in between) at it other than hope blizzard eases down for the sake of not only starcraft, but E-Sports in General.
I am also of the belief that Blizzard should not own every little thing related to Starcraft.
In an earlier post, I drew the analogy of map-making to that of creating content with other tools such as Photoshop or Word. Let's take it a step further.
Let's assume, just for a moment, that a single large contractor creates a very complex piece of equipment. Let's pretend that I am Lockheed Martin and I am the sole provider of a new space vehicle capable of exiting and re-entering the atmosphere (perhaps there are many, many contractors involved); but nothing prevents Blizzard from outsourcing some parts of its development or QA testing either. No one will doubt that the new space vehicle is far more complex than both Photoshop and any game that Blizzard will ever create. Thus complexity, in and of itself, can not be a determining factor in the rights of how the "tool" is used.
If Lockheed sells this space vehicle ("tool") to anyone, it is a given that they can use it how they see fit, and that Lockheed will have no say in the use or the promotion of it. There are countless examples of this over the last two centuries.
The difference with SC2 is that Blizzard isn't really selling you a "tool" or even a "game". According to the ToS, it's more like a license to temporarily play SC2 as long as you do not violate any of the Draconian rules set forth by Blizzard. (Yes, I do realize that SC2 costs a lot less than a space vehicle. But in the long run, they might make more money nonetheless.)
It's a license in the sense that Blizzard can revoke your right to play at anytime since it controls Battle.net which is the only to play (even for single-player <sigh>). You make them angry, you forfeit your right to play even though you purchased a "license".
This is a radical departure from traditional gaming dating back to Pong 38 years ago. Until very, very recently, when you bought a game (or application), you could use it in whatever ways you wanted for as long as you wanted without any fear that the manufacturer could immediately, and without warning, take away your rights.
If you look at software in general, licenses have been around for a while, much longer than the "stealth license" of some new games such as SC2. But in all of those cases, none of the licenses dictate in any way how you can use the software for which you purchased a license. There are often disclaimers such as "if you use it in unintended ways and you break shit, it's not our fault". But that's a far cry from dictating how the software can be used.
Legally, Blizzard is in uncharted waters. All of the precedent seems to go against them, but you never know how these things will turn out (especially given the current SCOTUS justices). I am certain that within the next 10 years there will be a major legal battle surrounding this issue. Since KeSPA is Korean, they won't be the ones bringing it on in the US Legal System. But it will happen. Sooner or later. And hopefully the Justices will realize that giving the creator of a tool unlimited power with regards to its use is a really, really bad idea.
I won't delve into other demands made by Blizzard other than the audit one as they have been covered countless times over and over in this thread. Obviously some of the demands were taken out of context by Kespa to sway the court of the public opinion to make Blizzard look unreasonable.
However, the demand for the 'right for Blizzard to audit Kespa' is not fully comprehensible to me. This would only make sense if Kespa has agreed to contractual terms to pay % of the revenue they generate from the E-sports scene, which then limited financial audit is understandable. If anything beyond, then it is unreasonable. Obviously I will need to look into the scope of the audit before I can draw more intellectual conclusion on the situation.
IBM for example, has many resellers and wholesalers, who basically purchases IBM products from IBM in mass and sells them to end users. Not exactly a perfectly parallel example as there is no IP ownership issues in this case, but they are still leveraging entirely off IBM products to generate revenue.
Does that give IBM the right to audit a entirely different organization with different stakeholders, infrastructure, vision and strategies? Hell no. That would reveal some of the companies most intimate confidential details which is really none of IBM's business.
On May 15 2010 17:34 Lonegunman2000 wrote: The logic capability on this forum is astonishing, seeing the level of blind (Mostly American) fanboyism towards a company like Blizzard which is owned by Activision, which is owned by Vivendi Universal which in turn is owned by General Electric, which is basically the BIGGEST conglomerate in the WORLD, owned by very powerful oligarchs like Rockefeller.
Vivendi Entertainment =/= Vivendi =/= Activision Blizzard. GE electrics owns 80% of Vivendi Entertainment, not Vivendi or Activision Blizzard.
There is no reason to hedge an argument based on, "They are a corporation, therefore they are greedy, etc etc." All businesses are in the business of making money. If they aren't in the business of making money, they aren't in business.
If you want to learn something about law, rather than making completely baseless assumptions about society or whatever, look at this post:
We really don't know whats in the contract. We do know that KeSPA has given Blizzard the shaft with BW and burned that bridge with 6 years unethical behavior. Blizzard just may be slapping them back. I for one think the KeSPA deserves it, especially with the recent news of game fixing. Please.
Just to give a basis on how things work in real life:
If you work for any company doing research and you design something new, get a patent on it, the company owns it. Same thing with anything else. If you create something using someone else's tool, unless that tool is sold as a product to create things, and they release rights to ownership of what is created, the owners of the tool have partial ownership rights on what is created.
No tool, no creation.
I also wanted to comment on a previous post that stated that making video games is more complicated than doing aerospace engineering and rocket science. Give me a break. Go to school for Aerospace Engineering and go to school for software design, and tell me which is harder, I've done both, and Engineering makes software design look like kindergarten math. Engineers have to write software applications all the time to solve math problems that can't be solved analytically. There is a GLOBAL shortage of Engineers, and way too many software designers out of work.
And for those of you who want to say that game design is hard, doing the engine can be time consuming, but its not that hard. Funny thing is, all the best engines use physics mathematics (Havok, etc.), which is what Engineers have been doing in their application design for decades.
morally: I feel that Blizzard is entitled some money if S2 is used in broadcast, at least if it is done commercially. I do not feel that they should be entitled derived rights on replays and or vods etc because they own the copyright on S2.
legally: Muaziz +1
Some big media companies are used being able to extend "IP" to suite their purposes. Sooner or later there will be a resistance to this push. If not from within USA then from EU or China.
IP - imaginary property(or so I often think) ie mostly software patents + copyright +trademarks are lumped together and called intellectual property. Software patents - lol, lets patent sorting backwards etc ... Copyright - Micky mouse act .... seriously lifetime + 95 years? Trademarks - Seems mostly reasonable from what little i know about them. Copyright should be limited to commercial uses mainly and only give limited ability to control derived products. The sad part is that the only party willing to even discuss these issues are the pirateparty.
On May 17 2010 01:16 Razor[cF] wrote: I also wanted to comment on a previous post that stated that making video games is more complicated than doing aerospace engineering and rocket science. Give me a break. Go to school for Aerospace Engineering and go to school for software design, and tell me which is harder, I've done both, and Engineering makes software design look like kindergarten math. Engineers have to write software applications all the time to solve math problems that can't be solved analytically. There is a GLOBAL shortage of Engineers, and way too many software designers out of work.
And for those of you who want to say that game design is hard, doing the engine can be time consuming, but its not that hard. Funny thing is, all the best engines use physics mathematics (Havok, etc.), which is what Engineers have been doing in their application design for decades.
Yeah, I thought that was a pretty arrogant quip by Carmack myself. Writing a screwy ingenious routine to calculate an inverse square root is great and all, but to stand in front of an audience of Aerospace Engineers and call their work child's play by comparison to writing the Quake engine is pretty damned egotistical. And, yeah, I'm also an engineer, physicist, and a programmer. I'd like to see Carmack shipped off to ITER to see if he can't just whip up something to get fusion working.
I'm a nuclear engineer, so I love your comment on the ITER. I actually am getting into plasma and fusion research. Magnetic confinement for the win!
The funny thing is I actually dug up that press conference and watched it to see wtf he was on about. First he says that aerospace engineering is easy and that him and his buddies could basically do up the design phase on a napkin. The hard part, he said, was getting it to actually work - and work reliably, LOL! Well, no shit Sherlock... engineering is more than a handful of equations, eh.
On May 04 2010 07:42 Railz wrote: How long before it will be before some moron says, "but Kespa created esports, Blizzard needs them" Kespa didn't create esports, the players did. Playing under harsh conditions with no pay, yet having the Charisma to get the government to back them is what made Kespa.
Blizzard could have ended this a long time ago and never did, all they did prior to SC2 was try and limit how much KeSPA claimed rights over it. Now blizzard is cutting them from the get go.
difference is the stakes weren't that high back then, but now, esports is huge, and it's not very reasonable for blizzard to step in now and demand compensation for esports' success in SK
Nothing could be more reasonable. Kespa can make thier own game, if they don't want to pay blizzard for theirs. Its pretty simple. It's also reasonable to know who is going to advertise and be associated with your game, since a bad decision by kespa could make blizzard look bad. ESports do not exist without the game, they can exist without kespa.
what i don't like is the 1 year contract, basically blizz can just make them pay more every year? that seems like greedy bullshit, just fucking settle on a yearly fee for a long term period, say 5 years and done! always trying to be greedy bastards. I'm not taking any sides cuz they're both equally wrong and greedy, doesnt blizzard make enough money from WoW without having to lay down some gimmick to increase fees for KeSPA as SC2 progaming's popularity increases?
the unseen reality though is that without Kespa, E-sports would be quite a wreck. Even though im a huge blizzard fan and a huge anti-fan of Kespa, what they are requesting is hey lets look over the conditions vs Blizzard which is basically saying do as we say bitch. However... if we got someone else representing Kespa.... maybe that'll changes things....
On May 04 2010 07:46 redtooth wrote: i'm actually surprised at the number of people taking kespa's side. just try to remember a time you've heard kespa's name associated with a positive act? they are just a bunch of greedy bureaucratic idiots who are trying their best to stay alive with SC2 looming around the corner.
dude calm down... kespa cant just be taken as self-evident i dont know another country where the government accepted e-sports as a real sport and pushed it as much as kespa did. i know they are far away from being perfect, but i have to take their side in this case. Blizzard doesnt want money from kespa, they want to take control over everything kespa does, probably to kill professional broodwar and open a path for starcraft2.
oh and starcraft 2 will get a 18+ ranking in korea, so kespa wont be able to broadcast anything related to it
This is what happens when Blizzard is bought out by Activision....Now they're owned by Vivendi Universal, 4th largest Conglomeration in the world (had to look it up for a project once XD)
I have a feeling KESPA may have some truth to their statements, although labeling "Blizzard" as the one making demands seems incorrect, it's most definitely the big shots with the trillions of dollars calling this -_-
You do know they pretty much made that happen, right?
Yeah, according to the rumors, this is one of the few bargaining chips that KeSPA actually has. They have enough political influence that they could probably ensure that SC2 is not 18+. At the same time, if they don't get SC2 rights, you can be pretty sure that they will make sure SC2 is 18+ to prevent anyone else from being able to broadcast games.
This is why Dustin Broder said the following in the ingame.de interview:
I certainly don't see it as not-selling in Korea, we will definitely trying to sell the game in Korea to our fans in Korea, even if there was no such thing as eSports, we wanna bring it to the Korean fans.
Just found this thread from a link on the bnet forums from somebody and thought I should voice my opinion on the matter.
Are the terms that much different from any other professional sport? The NFL has all rights to everything, even licensing of teams, TV airtime, and products. Same thing for the NBA and MLB and every other professional sport. To be fully honest, now that I look at it, those are pretty much identical to any professional sports requirement... even the 1 year contract since I think each year the different networks bid to see who gets to air the games and then a final big deal is made for the superbowl.
So, is Blizzard really extending its power too far? If SC2 is to be seen as a true "sport", then why is it not entitled to the same opportunities as the other sports in regards to ownership?
On May 19 2010 10:38 OptimusTom wrote: This is what happens when Blizzard is bought out by Activision....Now they're owned by Vivendi Universal, 4th largest Conglomeration in the world (had to look it up for a project once XD)
I have a feeling KESPA may have some truth to their statements, although labeling "Blizzard" as the one making demands seems incorrect, it's most definitely the big shots with the trillions of dollars calling this -_-
You do know that Vivendi has owned Blizzard since 98, right? And before that Blizzard was owned by other public traded companies.
Btw Vivendi acquired Activision, not the other way around, for those that didn't know.
On May 17 2010 01:16 Razor[cF] wrote: Just to give a basis on how things work in real life:
If you work for any company doing research and you design something new, get a patent on it, the company owns it. Same thing with anything else. If you create something using someone else's tool, unless that tool is sold as a product to create things, and they release rights to ownership of what is created, the owners of the tool have partial ownership rights on what is created.
No tool, no creation.
IP is supposed to promote innovation, not stifle it, which is what giving content creators ownership or partial ownership of every possible use of their content would do. On the other hand, allowing some forms of use, or even copying, is good for innovation in a number of ways. It allows the original content to be improved upon by many, it spreads the content where the original creator couldn't, and it encourages the original creator to continue to be creative instead of resting on his or her laurels.
Sure, KeSPA ain't no saint, but their organization represents an important function of innovation in video games: esports. I don't think it would be wise to let Blizzard, or any company, control that kind secondary market based on a knee jerk "but they made it so they should profit from it however they want!" reaction that goes against the spirit of innovation IP is supposed to encourage.
On May 19 2010 18:39 TheRabidDeer wrote: Are the terms that much different from any other professional sport? The NFL has all rights to everything, even licensing of teams, TV airtime, and products. Same thing for the NBA and MLB and every other professional sport. To be fully honest, now that I look at it, those are pretty much identical to any professional sports requirement... even the 1 year contract since I think each year the different networks bid to see who gets to air the games and then a final big deal is made for the superbowl.
There are certainly some similarities with how the major US sports franchises (NFL, NBA, MLB) operate, but there are also stark differences.
Starting with the contracts, they are much longer term in all of the 3 major sports (sorry NHL). Most contracts run 5+ years. One of the key reasons is that the broadcasters want to get a return on their (large financial) investment. It takes time to build a good crew of broadcasters, analysts, statisticians, etc. There is no way a major network would agree to a 1 year deal. As for the Super Bowl, it actually rotates among the major networks that carry the games.
However, the SC2 eSports scene is a MUCH bigger gamble than the 3 major US professional sports. A broadcaster has a well known proven commodity here. There are well established TV viewership numbers.
SC2 is brand new, and while it does have the huge and well followed (in Korea at least) SC as its predecessor, there is no guarantee that SC2 will be a huge eSports hit in Korea or anywhere else. Sure, it has *potential*, but that is very different from a proven money-making machine. Look at Kwame Brown: he was the #1 NBA draft pick by the Washington Wizards in 2001. That didn't exactly work out too well. How about a sports franchise analogy. You remember the XFL? It was a joint venture between the WWF (fake, but very popular Wrestling) and NBC. It was supposed to be the NFL during the off-season, with even more action! It lasted exactly 1 season and all parties involved lost truckloads of money financing it.
SC2 as an eSport is an unproven commodity. It is going to take a lot of time and effort to really develop it. Would you want to have a 1-year contract to do all the hard work, only to have it taken from you the very next year? In my opinion, this is by far the biggest sticking point. It seems like if you do a good job, you either: a) know that Blizzard will extort even more money from you next year now that it's a proven success, or b) have it taken it away from you now that it is a proven commodity. As an investor, both those possibilities suck.
i don`t know why but this little piece made me think that blizzard will pursue the same bloody copyright law backed "rights" in the west and we`ll see a purge of sc2 videos from the usual suspects like youtube (especially youtube), a stop of all live streams on ustream, livestream, xfire etc and C&D letters to websites distributing replays. If that happens Blizzard dies in my eyes. I mostly enjoy watching SC2 (BW not so much) rather than playing because i kinda suck at the game and the current no man`s land is what will make SC2 big for an audience of ppl like me
Nothing to add to discussion here, but I was just wondering if the [update] tag could be removed? Every time I think it's something new lol >.< Anyway whatever it's no big deal or anything
The Supreme Court unanimously ruled against the National Football League over its exclusive contract with an apparel maker in one of the most important sports law cases in decades.
In a 9-0 decision Monday, the justices said the league can be considered 32 separate teams, not a single business.
The court allowed a lawsuit against the league to continue, saying the licensing of intellectual property "constitutes concerted action" that is not part of the broad antitrust protection enjoyed by professional baseball. Such protection allows individual teams to act as one business when making a host of financial decisions, including marketing their logos and trademarks.
Why is this relevant to SC2? Well, for starters, the "pro sports" analogy is the one most likely applicable to eSports. Another reason that this is relevant is that these types of cases making their way all the way to the US Supreme Court is also rare. Thirdly, this was unanimous decision which doesn't bode well for any cases deemed to be similar.
Also note that the major US sports operate with broad anti-trust protection. This is good in the sense that it allows the sports to stay cohesive. And it is bad since it effectively shuts out any competition. There is no guarantee that any eSports in the US would be granted this lofty anti-trust protection status from the US Congress.
The bottom line is that laws surrounding eSports in the US are very murky. As I wrote in previous posts, I think a lot of the type of control that Blizzard is trying to seize will be challenged in the US within the next 10 years (assuming eSports ever becomes a profitable endeavor).
I don't like KeSPA, but I certainly don't like Blizzard trying to crush them with little to no care for all they represent. Sure you can gripe all day about how corrupt or unfair KeSPA is, but they have a real stake in the development of E-Sports and are the mantle for all these great teams and players that can afford to play full time.
Blizzard doesn't care about any of that judging from the interview in the last article, apparently "focusing on the community aspect of E-sports more than the financial aspects". I'm sorry but that's not E-sports. The "community" doesn't need you Blizzard, but professional players need sponsorship, advertising and prize money, lots of it.
I just can't trust E-sports in Blizzard's hands, and I don't feel like buying any Blizzard products until they back off.
On May 19 2010 10:38 OptimusTom wrote: This is what happens when Blizzard is bought out by Activision....Now they're owned by Vivendi Universal, 4th largest Conglomeration in the world (had to look it up for a project once XD)
I have a feeling KESPA may have some truth to their statements, although labeling "Blizzard" as the one making demands seems incorrect, it's most definitely the big shots with the trillions of dollars calling this -_-
I was thinking this exact thing. The timeline matches up pretty well too, Blizzard doesn't really care at all till 2007, when the merger happens, and then they are all up in Kespa's face. I was more on Blizzard's side before, but these demands... total control of everything relating to any tournament including sponsors??? WTF? I don't see why a licensing fee isn't sufficient, but I understand the lack of LAN support a whole heck of a lot more now. It's all about control.
On May 19 2010 18:39 TheRabidDeer wrote: Just found this thread from a link on the bnet forums from somebody and thought I should voice my opinion on the matter.
Are the terms that much different from any other professional sport? The NFL has all rights to everything, even licensing of teams, TV airtime, and products. Same thing for the NBA and MLB and every other professional sport. To be fully honest, now that I look at it, those are pretty much identical to any professional sports requirement... even the 1 year contract since I think each year the different networks bid to see who gets to air the games and then a final big deal is made for the superbowl.
So, is Blizzard really extending its power too far? If SC2 is to be seen as a true "sport", then why is it not entitled to the same opportunities as the other sports in regards to ownership?
I see as KESPA being the NFL and not blizzard in your analogy. cos NFL didnt invent the game of american football. it represents all the teams. Blizzard made SC/SC2, but that doesnt mean they own the rights to people playing it. If so we'll have england, china fighting over who invented football. can you imagine if england/china owned all rights to soccer/football? FIFA would be KESPA.
Do the companies who make the basketball (spalding), court and other equipment own the game of basketball? What is the basketball w/o the human playing with it? nothing. Unless Blizzard employs the gamers to play their game, it is contentless. unless Blizzard can create AI vs AI esports but we all know that wont work.
Blizzard didn't sponsor nor propell pro-BW. and even if they did, sponsorship does not equal ownership. Trying to cash in on the hard work of others after 10 years is so lame.
My own suspicions is Blizzard wants to kill off BW so that SC2's potential can be maximised. To build up the amount of pro-SC2 players if pro-BW still exists (assuming no BW player crosses over to SC2) is very challenging and time consuming. Better of having all BW pros convert to SC2.
Blizzard is kicking themselves because w/o absolute control, they cant keep creating new games and force gamers to change. new games = high retail price, more revenue, forcing upgrades = more revenue. Having BW being the most competitive game means very low revenue as old games = low retail price, less sales as time goes on. Also i'm sure BW is so huge that some people simply watch the games w/o actually playing it or owning a copy. Can you imagine if Mercedes made a car 10 years ago that till today that the majority of people still prefer to buy over the latest models? this is the situation Blizzard is facing.
Just look at the difference between pro - BW and pro - WC3. then you can judge who does a better job, KESPA or Blizzard / anyone else.
^ This is absolutely the case. No LAN in SC2 will basically make any pro gaming impossible, as well, at least without a "special" version from Blizzard. If it wasn't for LAN on SC1 they could just pull the plug on B.Net anytime they wanted. Forced retirement becomes easy.
Strangely, it's probably the sole reason that BW will outlive SC2.
On May 19 2010 18:39 TheRabidDeer wrote: Just found this thread from a link on the bnet forums from somebody and thought I should voice my opinion on the matter.
Are the terms that much different from any other professional sport? The NFL has all rights to everything, even licensing of teams, TV airtime, and products. Same thing for the NBA and MLB and every other professional sport. To be fully honest, now that I look at it, those are pretty much identical to any professional sports requirement... even the 1 year contract since I think each year the different networks bid to see who gets to air the games and then a final big deal is made for the superbowl.
So, is Blizzard really extending its power too far? If SC2 is to be seen as a true "sport", then why is it not entitled to the same opportunities as the other sports in regards to ownership?
I see as KESPA being the NFL and not blizzard in your analogy. cos NFL didnt invent the game of american football. it represents all the teams. Blizzard made SC/SC2, but that doesnt mean they own the rights to people playing it. If so we'll have england, china fighting over who invented football. can you imagine if england/china owned all rights to soccer/football? FIFA would be KESPA.
Do the companies who make the basketball (spalding), court and other equipment own the game of basketball? What is the basketball w/o the human playing with it? nothing. Unless Blizzard employs the gamers to play their game, it is contentless. unless Blizzard can create AI vs AI esports but we all know that wont work.
Blizzard didn't sponsor nor propell pro-BW. and even if they did, sponsorship does not equal ownership. Trying to cash in on the hard work of others after 10 years is so lame.
My own suspicions is Blizzard wants to kill off BW so that SC2's potential can be maximised. To build up the amount of pro-SC2 players if pro-BW still exists (assuming no BW player crosses over to SC2) is very challenging and time consuming. Better of having all BW pros convert to SC2.
Blizzard is kicking themselves because w/o absolute control, they cant keep creating new games and force gamers to change. new games = high retail price, more revenue, forcing upgrades = more revenue. Having BW being the most competitive game means very low revenue as old games = low retail price, less sales as time goes on. Also i'm sure BW is so huge that some people simply watch the games w/o actually playing it or owning a copy. Can you imagine if Mercedes made a car 10 years ago that till today that the majority of people still prefer to buy over the latest models? this is the situation Blizzard is facing.
Just look at the difference between pro - BW and pro - WC3. then you can judge who does a better job, KESPA or Blizzard / anyone else.
There's definitely something to be said about just where Blizzard's role would be in a sports analogy. It is true that Blizzard does in no way represent the players and teams in the way sport associations do, so comparing them to the NBA is way off. On the other hand, comparing them to manufacturers of sports equipment also doesn't cover the whole picture. A game of football can in essence be played with a Nike ball just as well as with one made by Adidas. Even stronger, you bet Adidas are the ones paying for the rights for making the official World Cup footballs. A game of Starcraft on the other hand can only be played with.. well, Starcraft. Blizzard are not just the manufacturers but also the creators of the very concept of Starcraft. The role of Blizzard are creators of the ruleset as well as the equipment makes the sports anology somewhat misleading.
So what is Starcraft then? Software? Well in that case, how about we compare it to other software which is used to create secondary content. Adobe and their Creative Suite comes to mind as a program familiar to many. As industry standard in the world of digital media industries you will have to pay up if you want to use these but a few thousand and you have yourself a valid copy for professional use. Now, what about the stuff you make with these programs, and the rights for them? The graphic created in Photoshop? Videos edited in Premiere? Games played in Starcraft? In this light the very idea of all games played being the intellectual property of the company behind the game seems absolutely absurd.
If you instead chose to view a game like Starcraft as a complete work (say, a book or a film) well then things changes. In this case a game played could be seen as a sample or a montage. In this case Blizzard would (as much as contemporary copyright laws over digital media disgusts me) probably have the rights on their side. I doubt a whole industry based around televised games of Starcraft can be seen as fair use.
So, where does this leads us? I'm not so sure myself; videogames can be seen as all of these and more. Personally I find the whole issue with IP rights some seriously muddy waters, even more so when we're talking about digital non-stuff. When you mix it with the idea of e-Sports, with its somewhat relevant but not quite fitting anology to traditional sports, you get a stinking mess.
On May 04 2010 07:46 redtooth wrote: i'm actually surprised at the number of people taking kespa's side. just try to remember a time you've heard kespa's name associated with a positive act? they are just a bunch of greedy bureaucratic idiots who are trying their best to stay alive with SC2 looming around the corner.
On May 04 2010 07:46 redtooth wrote: i'm actually surprised at the number of people taking kespa's side. just try to remember a time you've heard kespa's name associated with a positive act? they are just a bunch of greedy bureaucratic idiots who are trying their best to stay alive with SC2 looming around the corner.
hmm how about organizing BW proleague?? and making way for WCG??
there so many great games before SC:BW but there weren't any real leagues and big tournaments, no WCGs.
im not siding with kespa because i believe in them .. i just don't believe that Blizzard will take progaming seriously because, like what was raised earlier, why was it that Blizzard raised this Copyright issue now?? If they really cared for eSport, they should have supported or made their own proleagues in the US, seeing how LARGE WoW is. How come there aren't any WoW Leagues??
On May 04 2010 07:46 redtooth wrote: i'm actually surprised at the number of people taking kespa's side. just try to remember a time you've heard kespa's name associated with a positive act? they are just a bunch of greedy bureaucratic idiots who are trying their best to stay alive with SC2 looming around the corner.
hmm how about organizing BW proleague?? and making way for WCG??
there so many great games before SC:BW but there weren't any real leagues and big tournaments, no WCGs.
im not siding with kespa because i believe in them .. i just don't believe that Blizzard will take progaming seriously because, like what was raised earlier, why was it that Blizzard raised this Copyright issue now?? If they really cared for eSport, they should have supported or made their own proleagues in the US, seeing how LARGE WoW is. How come there aren't any WoW Leagues??
why baked your own cake while you can take someone else???
On May 04 2010 07:46 redtooth wrote: i'm actually surprised at the number of people taking kespa's side. just try to remember a time you've heard kespa's name associated with a positive act? they are just a bunch of greedy bureaucratic idiots who are trying their best to stay alive with SC2 looming around the corner.
hmm how about organizing BW proleague?? and making way for WCG??
there so many great games before SC:BW but there weren't any real leagues and big tournaments, no WCGs.
im not siding with kespa because i believe in them .. i just don't believe that Blizzard will take progaming seriously because, like what was raised earlier, why was it that Blizzard raised this Copyright issue now?? If they really cared for eSport, they should have supported or made their own proleagues in the US, seeing how LARGE WoW is. How come there aren't any WoW Leagues??
I agree here, Blizzard is being incredibly short sighted here. I really thought that Blizzard were the good guys back when they were working together with gom. But it seems to me that they just want to control their games and don't care about the future of E Sports.
You can say a lot about kespa, but truth is that no one here knows what actually going on in kepsa HQ, so there is little point in labeling them as evil. This is actually the only case I know of where Kespa has been heard. Its always just, "Kespa did this. Therefore Kespa sucks!" We never know what Kespa's true intentions may have been in the prior cases. Kespa is the reason that E Sports exist, that should not be forgotten. The things that people criticise Kespa for are very minor compared to what Blizzard is doing.
What is in danger here is E Sports as we know it and Blizzard are the ones who are endangering it. Not Kespa. Dont just mindlessly jump on the bandwagon and say that Kespa sucks.