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cujo2k
Canada1044 Posts
What people don't seem to mention is that JD played a near perfect series. He went 3 hatch no pool games 2 and 3 vs flash's FE, and he went overpool vs flash's 8 rax in game 4. You could say that there might've been luck involved in guessing flash's BO each game, but I think it comes down to jaedong being as good as anyone in starcraft at planning build orders and strategies to use vs opponents in bo5 series. JD would make a great poker player ;o | ||
Xxio
Canada5565 Posts
"What Jaedong accomplished against Flash cements him as the greatest player of all time" Yeah, getting that free win and then a 4th game that was a joke is really something. At least hide your bias when your writing something like this. | ||
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zeppelin
United States565 Posts
On January 24 2010 02:48 JadeFist wrote: Correct decision. I remember the Phillies won the world series from a game that was rained out in the middle when they were ahead. Everyone considered it legit. Everyone considered it legit because you're remembering it wrong and the score was tied when the game was suspended. It was resumed the next night and the Phillies went on to win. | ||
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JohnBall
Brazil1272 Posts
I was pretty sure Jaedong was going to win the moment he surrounded the huge MnM ball of death with ultralings and wiped it out. Flash lost map control at that point, and consequently Jaedong could place and defend his bottom left expo on the double gas. Flash lost because Jaedong found the week point on his aggressive MnM usage. Kill the fist big ball and T is left with a small army, no third base and no map control. | ||
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On January 24 2010 03:25 motbob wrote: What's to argue? The hypothetical situation I described isn't an opinion. It's a fact. The zerg player WOULD be better off taking the rematch in my hypothetical case. Where in the rules does it say interrupted games should be decided by supply difference, or the number of bases, or map control, or the stuff that normal people talk about when they talk about having the advantage? It does not discuss that anywhere. The rules simply say that it is the referee's decision. What other arbitrary factors would you like the referee's to base their judgment on? The number of fans a certain player had at the match? The number of hours a given player had available to practice? How tired a certain player is? Having to rematch on a map that is clearly T>Z obviously would have been a detriment to JDs chances at winning, but so was having to play that map in the first place. Matches need to be judges solely on the situation both players are in when the game is stopped, and nothing else. If that's what the KeSPA judges did, then I can't fault them. | ||
motbob
United States12546 Posts
On January 24 2010 03:30 Xxio wrote: You failed to mention several things, like the fact that both those ultras were practically dead, a new wave of medic marine was coming from Flash's base, there were no drones at JD's 3rd, his natural had maybe not even 1 drone per mineral patch, JD got his 1st and 2nd gas around the same time as Flash so if Flash was about to run out, so was JD "What Jaedong accomplished against Flash cements him as the greatest player of all time" Yeah, getting that free win and then a 4th game that was a joke is really something. At least hide your bias when your writing something like this. Hey, I'm not the expert here. Flash is. And Flash was retreating, giving up trying to break the bottom left. So if you feel like Flash could have busted the 4th and 5th gas, you should take it up with him, not me. In all seriousness, you're totally wrong. Flash had reinforcements? That's your argument? So did Jaedong, man. Jaedong was about to run out of gas at his main and nat too? HE HAD THREE OTHER GEYSERS. And maybe JD's drone sat wasn't all that great, but it's better than having 6 mineral patches total rofl. | ||
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JohnBall
Brazil1272 Posts
On January 24 2010 03:30 Xxio wrote: You failed to mention several things, like the fact that both those ultras were practically dead, a new wave of medic marine was coming from Flash's base, there were no drones at JD's 3rd, his natural had maybe not even 1 drone per mineral patch, JD got his 1st and 2nd gas around the same time as Flash so if Flash was about to run out, so was JD "What Jaedong accomplished against Flash cements him as the greatest player of all time" Yeah, getting that free win and then a 4th game that was a joke is really something. At least hide your bias when your writing something like this. There was no new wave on MnM moving towards Jaedong's base. The last "wave" was moving away from Jaedong's base for a last defense which would not work thanks to darkswarm. This kind of screws your analysis, doesn't it? Flash knew he wasn't breaking Jaedong's fourth. Maybe you want do disagree with Flash on this one? Edit: meh, motbob was quicker on the trigger  . | ||
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NovaTheFeared
United States7230 Posts
On January 24 2010 03:30 Xxio wrote: You failed to mention several things, like the fact that both those ultras were practically dead, a new wave of medic marine was coming from Flash's base, there were no drones at JD's 3rd, his natural had maybe not even 1 drone per mineral patch, JD got his 1st and 2nd gas around the same time as Flash so if Flash was about to run out, so was JD "What Jaedong accomplished against Flash cements him as the greatest player of all time" Yeah, getting that free win and then a 4th game that was a joke is really something. At least hide your bias when your writing something like this. It doesn't matter that Flash had a few extra MM coming because his vessels are out of energy and JD has defilers along with the 2 ultras and one more running up. It's impossible for Flash to crack JD's 7, which is why he retreated back to 9 o'clock. | ||
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dibban
Sweden1279 Posts
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On January 24 2010 03:34 sixghost wrote: What other arbitrary factors would you like the referee's to base their judgment on? The number of fans a certain player had at the match? The number of hours a given player had available to practice? How tired a certain player is? Having to rematch on a map that is clearly T>Z obviously would have been a detriment to JDs chances at winning, but so was having to play that map in the first place. Matches need to be judges solely on the situation both players are in when the game is stopped, and nothing else. If that's what the KeSPA judges did, then I can't fault them. Again, you're not addressing the crux of my argument, which is: if you believe that the objective of the ref is to screw someone over the least amount possible, then it follows that map balance is an important factor. Reading your posts, it's obvious that you've got a different theory of what the proper way to make the decision is so I guess I can agree to disagree if you can. | ||
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On January 24 2010 03:37 motbob wrote: Again, you're not addressing the crux of my argument, which is: if you believe that the objective of the ref is to screw someone over the least amount possible, then it follows that map balance is an important factor. Reading your posts, it's obvious that you've got a different theory of what the proper way to make the decision is so I guess I can agree to disagree if you can. I don't understand why your definition of "screwing someone over the least" includes anything but the game at hand. Introducing anything more than that is just overcomplicating the process. For instance, what if Oddeye was less imbalanced, would Jaedong have needed to be slightly more ahead to still be awarded the game? | ||
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Doso
Germany769 Posts
The thing that bothers me most was how KeSpa shove it down their throats. 3 Mins commercials break aren't enough to fully analyse the VoDs and talk to the players involved. They just looked at the VoD quickly and made the announcement right after... | ||
Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
However, considering how JD was playing, I don't think Flash could have taken down JD. JD was consistently sniping down Vessels with scourge, which is vital to stopping SK Terran. Ultra count doesn't matter too much considering that they're much more replaceable than Vessels. Vessels are the literal backbone of Terran strategy, while Swarm and Lings can delay Terran long enough until enough gas is mined to get Ultras. Basically I'm saying that after JD fended off bottom left, he could have camped indefinitely while mining off of like 6 gas until he had enough units to run over a 1 Base 2 gas Terran. | ||
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On January 24 2010 03:43 sixghost wrote: I don't understand why your definition of "screwing someone over the least" includes anything but the game at hand. Introducing anything more than that just overcomplicating the process. For instance, what if Oddeye was a less imbalanced, would Jaedong have needed to be slightly more ahead to still be awarded the game? Not in this case, no | ||
JWD
United States12607 Posts
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
The decision by KESPA (or whoever) was probably the right one provided the ONLY alternative was to start over. Yet Flash had a chance... Starting the game over would have been extremely lame for JD and beneficial to Flash so it wouldn't have been any better. However, to say that the game was 99% in Jaedong's favor is ridiculous. Flash is a very capable player and we've seen him pull out of much worse... What's actually unfair is, as it has been mentioned, it's a lot harder to play after losing a game in such a way. I think it's likely that Flash would have played much differently in game 4 if game 3 had ended normally. This is not to say he wouldn't have lost. Maybe he would have done the same thing, but who's to say Flash's brain works in such a linear fashion? I certainly wouldn't make such an assumption. I think only a simpleton would. The real problem here is MBC's stupidity. | ||
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tirentu
Canada1257 Posts
On January 24 2010 03:37 dibbaN wrote: The only way JD could lose that game was if he decided to jump into outer space. Wouldn't have been too hard, given the OUTER SPACE that was behind them in the studio. | ||
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On January 24 2010 03:46 JWD wrote: motbob I agree with a lot of your OP but not your conclusion. I'm busting ass on a school assignment that's due in 3hrs15min right now, but if I've still got any steam left when I finish I will make another OP with my argument. Bring it on!! I will fight to the death to defend my Starcraft analysis honor!! | ||
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KwarK
United States43557 Posts
On January 24 2010 03:47 Djzapz wrote: You people need to start watching more games. JD was far ahead I'll agree to that. The decision by KESPA (or whoever) was probably the right one provided the ONLY alternative was to start over. Yet Flash had a chance... Starting the game over would have been extremely lame for JD and beneficial to Flash so it wouldn't have been any better. However, to say that the game was 99% in Jaedong's favor is ridiculous. Flash is a very capable player and we've seen him pull out of much worse... What's actually unfair is, as it has been mentioned, it's a lot harder to play after losing a game in such a way. I think it's likely that Flash would have played much differently in game 4 if game 3 had ended normally. This is not to say he wouldn't have lost. Maybe he would have done the same thing, but who's to say Flash's brain works in such a linear fashion? I certainly wouldn't make such an assumption. I think only a simpleton would. The real problem here is MBC's stupidity. When have we seen Flash come back from much worse? In fact, when has a player even been in much worse? He had one group of marines and medics. His only factory was flying. His 4 science vessels had low energy. If I'd swapped places with JD I could have still won that game. From what we could see JD had 4 ultralisks and 2 defilers with energy along with a few lings and scourge. That alone was enough units to win the game straight off. Add in the fact that he was capable of producing an ultralisk every 8 seconds or so (assuming he felt like going pure ultra) and that Flash lacked a single unit that could kill an ultralisk, even if they aren't under swarm, and I really don't see why 99% isn't being generous to Flash. | ||
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Xxio
Canada5565 Posts
Jaedong had 3 geysers (not counting natural, main), 2 extractors as far as we know, and was mining from 1 of them. Jaedong was far ahead, however I don't think he could have held on to all the geysers but that is purely speculation. What this really comes down to is whether Jaedong was far enough ahead to be given a victory, and that is totally up to opinion. | ||
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