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On January 24 2010 04:20 Xxio wrote:
Hold it against what? 3 ultralisk, 2 pracitcally dead and some lings? ohh, or are you speculating that suddenly a control group of gas units would appear?
Actually, the whole point of this OP was to show just this. JD had a massive resource advantage. He could have had that control group of Ultras in under two minutes.
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The series was unrecoverable from the moment the power outage happened. Yes Jaedong was ahead, yes it was the right decision, but it doesn't change the fact that anyone who's ever watched a game of Starcraft knows that Flash wasn't trying in game four. Honestly, this isn't Kespa's fault either, since MBC put them in the position where they had to make this decision.
The "it's all on Flash" excuse is utterly disingenous, though. Yes, we prize mental fortitude in progamers, but that's on the assumption that they are facing equal mental hurdles in the series. Not only was this uneven, but having your coach and team rage and walk out, and to see your father so angry that he needs to be restrained - tell me how this is within the realm of reasonable things to expect a player to deal with. There is a line, and in my opinion, the hour-long drama following the Kespa decision crossed it.
It's not Kespa's fault for the decision, nor is it unreasonable that Flash's dad freaked out. Basically, I have sympathy for everyone in this situation except MBC.
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On January 24 2010 04:36 epi wrote:
The series was unrecoverable from the moment the power outage happened. Yes Jaedong was ahead, yes it was the right decision, but it doesn't change the fact that anyone who's ever watched a game of Starcraft knows that Flash wasn't trying in game four.
I think he looked so shaken because in the deciding match of the bo5 he went 8 rax vs 9 pool.
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On January 24 2010 04:01 KristianJS wrote:
I don't know why the main focus of discussion is on whether or not Jaedong should have been given the game. It was pretty clear that giving him the point was at least as fair as replaying (it'd be making JD throw away his considerable advantage or robbing Flash of a small chance at a comeback).
The real issue is how Kespa (or whoever) actually allowed Flash's dad and coaches to turn it into a 1 hour shitstorm. It's completely unprofessional. The ref's decision in such a situation should be final and it's unheard of to allow someone's parents or coaches come and delay things for a whole hour.
Not only did it ruin things for the audience, it ruined it for Flash. The longer they were allowed to complain the harder it was gonna be for Flash to just brush it away for the next game. As things went, it was pretty obvious how it affected Flash.
Repeating this for new page...the situation was not dealt with well. It was handled dreadfully.
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I don't know what's the big "habuloo" about Jaedong's build. It was 3 hatch before pool, same as game 2. Flash knew it was coming, regardless of how well Jaedong planned it. He got the +1 weapons into 4rax aggression, knowing that jaedong will want to skip lurkers with that build. Game one and two are extremely similar, the main difference is the mid to lategame transition, but at that point, both players are trying to adapt and counter the others' decision. Had in game 2 jaedong decide not to go guardians, flash would've gone straight into SK terran as in game 3.
So the "secret build" is pretty much a moot point.
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On January 24 2010 04:40 dyos wrote:
I don't know what's the big "habuloo" about Jaedong's build. It was 3 hatch before pool, same as game 2. Flash knew it was coming, regardless of how well Jaedong planned it. He got the +1 weapons into 4rax aggression, knowing that jaedong will want to skip lurkers with that build. Game one and two are extremely similar, the main difference is the mid to lategame transition, but at that point, both players are trying to adapt and counter the others' decision. Had in game 2 jaedong decide not to go guardians, flash would've gone straight into SK terran as in game 3.
So the "secret build" is pretty much a moot point.
you do know that 8rax against three hatch before pool is instant win for terran?
Jaedong pulled exactly that build against Flash. The same Flash who pulled 8rax in almost half of his last 10 TvZ games.
Show me another gamer who would have the same balls in a finals.
And Flash didnt know it was coming...
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I just want to add, that game 4 was not flash giving up (lol). He didn't 7rax to concede, he did it because IT WORKS. He did it because jaedong abused the hell out of his 1raxCC build with 3 hat pool repeatedly(literally back to back) and then on the most macro intensive map (also the only 4 player map) jaedong opened with an overpool -> 11 hat -> into 3 hat muta play.
Here is the deal. At the level they are playing on if jaedong opens overpool and flash 1 rax cc's, jaedong will 100% never get a third gas up because of late muta, latespeedlings and late third, late carpace,lurker aspect, hive ect, the implications of that build order advantage would have flash dominting jaedong like the last time they play on FS, knowing this flash knows his 7rax is a lethal way to gain a large advantage since jaedong is forced to 12hat on this map against his powerfull 1raxcc,. Jaedong sense this and choose a build that would most likely lose to flashes strongest build , 1raxcc but beat his most likely build 7,8rax.
I wish the power hadn't gone off so jaedong could have spent another 2 minutes to win that game and then win set four (which would have played out the same way ).
Jaedong showed incredible build order courage and preparation in every game. Nada was right, flash didn't get to prepare enough just for jaedong this finals while jaedong got to only prepare for flash, that advantage was too great for him flas h to overcome!
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On January 24 2010 04:58 AttackZerg wrote:
I just want to add, that game 4 was not flash giving up (lol). He didn't 7rax to concede, he did it because IT WORKS. He did it because jaedong abused the hell out of his 1raxCC build with 3 hat pool repeatedly(literally back to back) and then on the most macro intensive map (also the only 4 player map) jaedong opened with an overpool -> 11 hat -> into 3 hat muta play.
Here is the deal. At the level they are playing on if jaedong opens overpool and flash 1 rax cc's, jaedong will 100% never get a third gas up because of late muta, latespeedlings and late third, late carpace,lurker aspect, hive ect, the implications of that build order advantage would have flash dominting jaedong like the last time they play on FS, knowing this flash knows his 7rax is a lethal way to gain a large advantage since jaedong is forced to 12hat on this map against his powerfull 1raxcc,. Jaedong sense this and choose a build that would most likely lose to flashes strongest build , 1raxcc but beat his most likely build 7,8rax.
I wish the power hadn't gone off so jaedong could have spent another 2 minutes to win that game and then win set four (which would have played out the same way ).
Jaedong showed incredible build order courage and preparation in every game. Nada was right, flash didn't get to prepare enough just for jaedong this finals while jaedong got to only prepare for flash, that advantage was too great for him flas h to overcome!
Flash and JD had the same preparation time barring Flash's 2 PL games, which were TvZ anyways so it didnt really matter. JD did destroy Flash strategically all 4 sets though and got way ahead in the mind games, which is insane considering the mind games Flash has been playing vs JD using his series vs Kwanro + his games vs hero/calm where he used aggressive all in builds to mind fuck JD in the finals making him pool first. It was truly incredible to see JD predict Flash like a open book like that, and I dont think thats getting enough attention here. This is the best Bo5 player to ever play the game, both strategically and mentally.
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On January 24 2010 04:29 Tien wrote:
Kwark I'm 100% convinced people claiming Flash wasn't at a disadvantage don't play starcraft at all.
this. Anyone who's ever watched or even PLAYED a lategame TvZ should know how ridiculously difficult it is to kill fully upgraded ultralisks.
MnM just doesn't do the raw damage needed to kill ultras (unless en masse) that is why tanks are incorporated into a Terran ball vs ultras
Flash had no resources to make such tanks as he was pumping vessells off of 2 star.
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United States41983 Posts
On January 24 2010 05:15 DreaM)XeRO wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 04:29 Tien wrote:
Kwark I'm 100% convinced people claiming Flash wasn't at a disadvantage don't play starcraft at all. this. Anyone who's ever watched or even PLAYED a lategame TvZ should know how ridiculously difficult it is to kill fully upgraded ultralisks. MnM just doesn't do the raw damage needed to kill ultras (unless en masse) that is why tanks are incorporated into a Terran ball vs ultras Flash had no resources to make such tanks as he was pumping vessells off of 2 star.
And his factory was floating midair and had been all game.
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Jaedong was at an advantage but it was NOT overwhelming WTF
flash had just pulled scv to his new 3rd base, his upgrades were complete and even if he had to pull back his mnm from jaedong's double gas there was still game left to be played.
MSL's fuckup is LEGENDARY here.
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This is the last post I'll make about this mess.
The situation is just shitty in the general. Yes, Jaedong had a great advantage. Yes, Jaedong might've won that game. But holy shit, did it psychologically fuck Flash up. Anybody watching Game 4 could see that Flash wasn't himself. Letting a ling runby to see his 2 rax acad build?
I would be psychologically fucked too if my raging father was forced to leave the stadium, if my ENTIRE team walked out, etc. I'm not disagreeing that the decision was right, but to say Jaedong FAIRLY beat Flash in a bo5, and that Flash was mentally on even grounds with Jaedong after that incident occurred, is completely wrong.
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United States41983 Posts
On January 24 2010 05:19 .risingdragoon wrote:
Jaedong was at an advantage but it was NOT overwhelming WTF
flash had just pulled scv to his new 3rd base, his upgrades were complete and even if he had to pull back his mnm from jaedong's double gas there was still game left to be played.
MSL's fuckup is LEGENDARY here.
What would you have Flash do here? He has one control group of mnm. He has one base (with 6 mineral crystals and no gas). He has 4 vessels with no energy. JD has 4 mining bases, 5 mining gases and a 5th base with a 6th gas coming. If Flash tries to attack any of those bases with his tiny army he loses his only mining expansion (as well as his army probably). If Flash camps then he's camping with pure mnm against 6 gas ultralisk. You can camp TvZ with upgraded tanks and a decent base when you take your 3rd early. You cannot camp with only mnm against ultras with swarm, especially when the zerg has a much greater gas income than you have mineral income.
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Not a single good Starcraft player has said anything but that Jaedong was way ahead in set 3. Kwark, Idra, and Ret have all weighed in, and their opinions are unanimous that Jaedong enjoyed a huge advantage.
Simply put: if you're arguing against that, you're wrong. The evidence is there. The authorities all take one view of the issue. It's insanely egotistical to disagree with a united front of people who are so much more qualified to understand the question.
Opinions on what rules ought to look like may vary, but that's a separate question. As it stands, the rules specify that a game's winner can be determined by decision under certain circumstances. These are those circumstances: every qualified person is in agreement that Jaedong was way ahead.
Obviously no one wants to see a game decided by referees rather than players, but if a decision has to be made - one way or the other - it's definitely a good thing that every qualified person is in agreement that things shook out the way they were supposed to.
It's unnecessary and uncharitable controversy to dispute Jaedong's win in the third game and to discredit him as the rightful winner of the series. Fan allegiances are fun and have their place, but when they lead you to make biased claims that discredit someone who has worked as hard as Jaedong has, then your allegiances should be put aside.
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Jaedong did fairly beat Flash in a BO5...
EDIT: That was in response to Seraphim.
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By the way, if you are one of the multitude of people who weighed in "LOL JD's build is so bad" or "ROFL give the game away JD ROFL" when JD lost the top right base (just before he sandwiched and raped flash's army) you are probably not qualified to comment on the probable outcome of game 3
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On January 23 2010 19:28 Malinor wrote:
I guess a lot of you guys have to wait until Day[9] tells you how decisive JDs lead was.
This is my favorite quote from the LR thread.
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United States41983 Posts
Chill briefly said that he thought it was even but upon reviewing the vod agreed JD was way ahead.
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On January 24 2010 05:28 LucasWoJ wrote:
Jaedong did fairly beat Flash in a BO5...
EDIT: That was in response to Seraphim.
Wow, great response. Care to actually validate your claim?
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EPT
