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On January 24 2010 03:02 nK)Duke wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 02:58 G.s)NarutO wrote:On January 24 2010 02:57 Chef wrote:
I think you're neglecting how big an impact that disconnect had on Flash's 4th game.
It was basically either give the series to Jaedong because he deserved to win the 3rd game, or make the series exciting because having a regame won't depress either player, it'll just make them hungry.. Thats the point exactly, it would have depressed Jaedong, because he just earned that game and had an insane advantage. On a map which is heavily Terran favored. It's really not clear. You know, you can not look in one's mind. This game could have make Jaedong more angry, because he knows that people will say that he did not earn this win.
Yes, but the possibility of JD being angry is his mentality, not the inherent "betterness" of the situation. Same thing with Flash being dejected.
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I honestly agree with this. It would've taken a miracle with a ridiculous amount of blundering on JD's part with Flash playing perfectly for Flash to have taken the game at that point. Is it possible? Yes. Is it reasonable to believe that this could have happened? No. Really, this was a Lose-Lose situation because this would have ultimately resulted in some sort of backlash and complaints either way. I really don't fault KeSPA for the decision they made given the situation as I think it was the correct one. The only thing here that angers me is that the system wasn't on some sort of UPS which would have prevented the blackout from affecting the actual gameplay. That, to me, was a terrible lack of foresight. Of course it's possible that it was and the UPS simply failed as well, but I find that case to be highly unlikely... =/ Whatever the case, this was a great event that was completely ruined by this power outage. I doubt either player came out satisfied because of this.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On January 24 2010 03:02 sixghost wrote:
How does the map's racial advantage have any effect on what the decision should have been? It doesn't matter if the map is 100% T>Z after 100 games, if the map is in the rotation, the T player deserves his fair shot to play the game on that map.
If you feel that my overall theory that the decision should be made by who gets screwed over less is wrong, then please dispute that theory. If you let that theory stand, it follows that map balance is of the utmost importance. Your rhetoric about a "fair shot" or whatever is irrelevant.
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Russian Federation57 Posts
the only sad thing is that JD was denied to make clear victory
i think, even if kespa announced a rematch, JD take the seires
he was better than flash this day
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It was the correct decision. The long ass wait and ridiculous unpleasantry was not the correct decision. Not on Kespa's part, not on Flash's dad's part, and definitely not on KT's part, who as pro players should have understood who had the advantage.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On January 24 2010 03:07 pr0t0ss wrote:
the only sad thing is that JD was denied to make clear victory
i think, even if kespa announced a rematch, JD take the seires
he was better than flash this day
Oh fuck, this reminds me of something I should have put in my article. Thanks, dude.
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On January 24 2010 03:06 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 03:02 sixghost wrote:
How does the map's racial advantage have any effect on what the decision should have been? It doesn't matter if the map is 100% T>Z after 100 games, if the map is in the rotation, the T player deserves his fair shot to play the game on that map. If you feel that my overall theory that the decision should be made by who gets screwed over less is wrong, then please dispute that theory. If you let that theory stand, it follows that map balance is of the utmost importance. Your rhetoric about a "fair shot" or whatever is irrelevant.
So by that logic, you would feel less inclined to give Jaedong the game if set3 was taking place on a zerg favored map? The decision needed to be made based on the circumstances of the game.
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On January 24 2010 03:04 SuperJongMan wrote:
Flash did get a fair shot.
And he lost...99%.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On January 24 2010 03:09 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 03:06 motbob wrote:On January 24 2010 03:02 sixghost wrote:
How does the map's racial advantage have any effect on what the decision should have been? It doesn't matter if the map is 100% T>Z after 100 games, if the map is in the rotation, the T player deserves his fair shot to play the game on that map. If you feel that my overall theory that the decision should be made by who gets screwed over less is wrong, then please dispute that theory. If you let that theory stand, it follows that map balance is of the utmost importance. Your rhetoric about a "fair shot" or whatever is irrelevant. So by that logic, you would feel less inclined to give Jaedong the game if set3 was taking place on a zerg favored map? The decision needed to be made based on the circumstances of the game.
Yes, I would be less inclined. Think about this: a theoretical map is 99% in favor of zerg. Terrans simply cannot win against zerg on this map. In that situation, if Jaedong had an 85% chance of winning after 18 minutes, it would actually be beneficial for him to take a rematch.
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l10f
United States3241 Posts
I just watched the game and there was almost no way that Flash could have came back from the match. I agree with their decision, and even if there was no power outage, Flash would have been taken back mentally for the 4th game.
I think the wrong decision was made by KT for delaying the 4th set for so long, rather then KeSPA for making the right decision for once.
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Looks like JAEDONG is still going to be number 1 kespa this month feb.
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On January 24 2010 02:41 motbob wrote:
Let's take a look at how giving the win to Jaedong affected Flash. Flash was denied the opportunity to come back. About 15% of the time, he would have won Game 3. Very simple.
Bullshit, there was so much more than just that.
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On January 24 2010 03:09 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 03:06 motbob wrote:On January 24 2010 03:02 sixghost wrote:
How does the map's racial advantage have any effect on what the decision should have been? It doesn't matter if the map is 100% T>Z after 100 games, if the map is in the rotation, the T player deserves his fair shot to play the game on that map. If you feel that my overall theory that the decision should be made by who gets screwed over less is wrong, then please dispute that theory. If you let that theory stand, it follows that map balance is of the utmost importance. Your rhetoric about a "fair shot" or whatever is irrelevant. So by that logic, you would feel less inclined to give Jaedong the game if set3 was taking place on a zerg favored map? The decision needed to be made based on the circumstances of the game.
The circumstances of the game itself clearly favored JD immensely and the fact that it was on a Terran-favored map is just icing on the cake. The point is that to have them do a rematch when JD had already pretty much won the game and to subsequently take all that away and throw him back into a disadvantageous situation on a Terran-biased map with his build already divulged, would have been much more unreasonable than to give him the win that he clearly would have gotten anyway. Flash had a fair chance at the game and he lost. He didn't lose because KeSPA "took away his win", he lost because JD had just wrecked his army, he had less than half a dozen Vessels, no tanks, a dying economy and he was up against a 5-gas hive-tech Zerg...
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On January 24 2010 03:18 BanZu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 02:41 motbob wrote:
Let's take a look at how giving the win to Jaedong affected Flash. Flash was denied the opportunity to come back. About 15% of the time, he would have won Game 3. Very simple. Bullshit, there was so much more than just that.
You gotta give me something to defend against here. I need an argument, not a disagreement.
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On January 24 2010 03:14 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 03:09 sixghost wrote:On January 24 2010 03:06 motbob wrote:On January 24 2010 03:02 sixghost wrote:
How does the map's racial advantage have any effect on what the decision should have been? It doesn't matter if the map is 100% T>Z after 100 games, if the map is in the rotation, the T player deserves his fair shot to play the game on that map. If you feel that my overall theory that the decision should be made by who gets screwed over less is wrong, then please dispute that theory. If you let that theory stand, it follows that map balance is of the utmost importance. Your rhetoric about a "fair shot" or whatever is irrelevant. So by that logic, you would feel less inclined to give Jaedong the game if set3 was taking place on a zerg favored map? The decision needed to be made based on the circumstances of the game. Yes, I would be less inclined. Think about this: a theoretical map is 99% in favor of zerg. Terrans simply cannot win against zerg on this map. In that situation, if Jaedong had an 85% chance of winning after 18 minutes, it would actually be beneficial for him to take a rematch.
If that's what you think, I can't argue with you. Map imbalance is a completely independent issue and shouldn't be factoring into a decision like this. Where in the rules does it say that interrupted games will be decided based on the players advantage in the game relative to the map imbalance that they are overcoming?
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On January 24 2010 03:20 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 03:18 BanZu wrote:On January 24 2010 02:41 motbob wrote:
Let's take a look at how giving the win to Jaedong affected Flash. Flash was denied the opportunity to come back. About 15% of the time, he would have won Game 3. Very simple. Bullshit, there was so much more than just that. You gotta give me something to defend against here. I need an argument, not a disagreement.
So I win?
+ Show Spoiler +Haha, just kidding. Btw, there isn't anything to argue against in the OP. But no matter how much analysis, debating, etc etc you do, Flash is still the one getting fucked.
On January 24 2010 03:21 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 03:14 motbob wrote:On January 24 2010 03:09 sixghost wrote:On January 24 2010 03:06 motbob wrote:On January 24 2010 03:02 sixghost wrote:
How does the map's racial advantage have any effect on what the decision should have been? It doesn't matter if the map is 100% T>Z after 100 games, if the map is in the rotation, the T player deserves his fair shot to play the game on that map. If you feel that my overall theory that the decision should be made by who gets screwed over less is wrong, then please dispute that theory. If you let that theory stand, it follows that map balance is of the utmost importance. Your rhetoric about a "fair shot" or whatever is irrelevant. So by that logic, you would feel less inclined to give Jaedong the game if set3 was taking place on a zerg favored map? The decision needed to be made based on the circumstances of the game. Yes, I would be less inclined. Think about this: a theoretical map is 99% in favor of zerg. Terrans simply cannot win against zerg on this map. In that situation, if Jaedong had an 85% chance of winning after 18 minutes, it would actually be beneficial for him to take a rematch. If that's what you think, I can't argue with you. Map imbalance is a completely independent issue and shouldn't be factoring into a decision like this. Where in the rules does it say that interrupted games will be decided based on the players advantage in the game relative to the map imbalance that they are overcoming?
I agree with this. Map balance ought not to enter into the decision-making. I can understand your why one might think that it should but it just seems wrong.
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On January 24 2010 03:19 HeartOfTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 03:09 sixghost wrote:On January 24 2010 03:06 motbob wrote:On January 24 2010 03:02 sixghost wrote:
How does the map's racial advantage have any effect on what the decision should have been? It doesn't matter if the map is 100% T>Z after 100 games, if the map is in the rotation, the T player deserves his fair shot to play the game on that map. If you feel that my overall theory that the decision should be made by who gets screwed over less is wrong, then please dispute that theory. If you let that theory stand, it follows that map balance is of the utmost importance. Your rhetoric about a "fair shot" or whatever is irrelevant. So by that logic, you would feel less inclined to give Jaedong the game if set3 was taking place on a zerg favored map? The decision needed to be made based on the circumstances of the game. The circumstances of the game itself clearly favored JD immensely and the fact that it was on a Terran-favored map is just icing on the cake. The point is that to have them do a rematch when JD had already pretty much won the game and to subsequently take all that away and throw him back into a disadvantageous situation on a Terran-biased map with his build already divulged, would have been much more unreasonable than to give him the win that he clearly would have gotten anyway. Flash had a fair chance at the game and he lost. He didn't lose because KeSPA "took away his win", he lost because JD had just wrecked his army, he had less than half a dozen Vessels, no tanks, a dying economy and he was up against a 5-gas hive-tech Zerg...
Your argument needs to stop right there. If you believe that JD had won the game, he should be given the win regardless of what map he is playing on.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On January 24 2010 03:21 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 03:14 motbob wrote:On January 24 2010 03:09 sixghost wrote:On January 24 2010 03:06 motbob wrote:On January 24 2010 03:02 sixghost wrote:
How does the map's racial advantage have any effect on what the decision should have been? It doesn't matter if the map is 100% T>Z after 100 games, if the map is in the rotation, the T player deserves his fair shot to play the game on that map. If you feel that my overall theory that the decision should be made by who gets screwed over less is wrong, then please dispute that theory. If you let that theory stand, it follows that map balance is of the utmost importance. Your rhetoric about a "fair shot" or whatever is irrelevant. So by that logic, you would feel less inclined to give Jaedong the game if set3 was taking place on a zerg favored map? The decision needed to be made based on the circumstances of the game. Yes, I would be less inclined. Think about this: a theoretical map is 99% in favor of zerg. Terrans simply cannot win against zerg on this map. In that situation, if Jaedong had an 85% chance of winning after 18 minutes, it would actually be beneficial for him to take a rematch. If that's what you think, I can't argue with you. Map imbalance is a completely independent issue and shouldn't be factoring into a decision like this.
What's to argue? The hypothetical situation I described isn't an opinion. It's a fact. The zerg player WOULD be better off taking the rematch in my hypothetical case.
Where in the rules does it say that interrupted games will be decided based on the players advantage in the game relative to the map imbalance that they are overcoming?
Where in the rules does it say interrupted games should be decided by supply difference, or the number of bases, or map control, or the stuff that normal people talk about when they talk about having the advantage? It does not discuss that anywhere. The rules simply say that it is the referee's decision.
EDIT: you gotta understand that the refs probably didn't take map balance into account anyway. this is just what *I* think is the correct way of making the decision.
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Even if you disregard map balance, and consider the new match even upon a regame it's still less bad to give JD the win.
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On January 24 2010 03:22 BanZu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 03:20 motbob wrote:On January 24 2010 03:18 BanZu wrote:On January 24 2010 02:41 motbob wrote:
Let's take a look at how giving the win to Jaedong affected Flash. Flash was denied the opportunity to come back. About 15% of the time, he would have won Game 3. Very simple. Bullshit, there was so much more than just that. You gotta give me something to defend against here. I need an argument, not a disagreement. So I win? + Show Spoiler +Haha, just kidding. Btw, there isn't anything to argue against in the OP. But no matter how much analysis, debating, etc etc you do, Flash is still the one getting fucked.
Yea, the issue was one of choosing the lesser of two evils. It would clearly disadvantage Jaedong to regame.
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EPT
