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I don't know why the main focus of discussion is on whether or not Jaedong should have been given the game. It was pretty clear that giving him the point was at least as fair as replaying (it'd be making JD throw away his considerable advantage or robbing Flash of a small chance at a comeback).
The real issue is how Kespa (or whoever) actually allowed Flash's dad and coaches to turn it into a 1 hour shitstorm. It's completely unprofessional. The ref's decision in such a situation should be final and it's unheard of to allow someone's parents or coaches come and delay things for a whole hour.
Not only did it ruin things for the audience, it ruined it for Flash. The longer they were allowed to complain the harder it was gonna be for Flash to just brush it away for the next game. As things went, it was pretty obvious how it affected Flash.
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If there's even the slightest chance that the outcome of the game is not clear, a regame should be granted, if both players agree, possibly on a different, but common map (that both players have played on before).
If one player had an advantage over the other in a game, and the game ends in a technical difficulty (it doesn't matter whose), a regame isn't actually screwing him over, because the goal is to get your opponent to gg legitimately. I'm pretty sure you don't get to claim a victory in any other sport or on Iccup by getting an advantage and then decide to leave and then petition to get the points for having "an advantage". How much is an "advantage" worth? Half a match point? 0.55? Do they round it down then? Who decides?
No sport that desires a modicum of respect and no true sportsman with any integrity will accept victory by committee through "advantage", because it's entirely subjective.
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United States42955 Posts
On January 24 2010 03:54 Xxio wrote:
If you look at Flash's base on the mini map you can see many yellow dots (medic marine) being produced and moving from his main base to a rally point. On one of the last frames you can see one of these dots in the stream out below the yellow-blob that is Flash's natural. They weren't scvs because he'd already sent them.
Jaedong had 3 geysers (not counting natural, main), 2 extractors as far as we know, and was mining from 1 of them. Jaedong was far ahead, however I don't think he could have held on to all the geysers but that is purely speculation.
What this really comes down to is whether Jaedong was far enough ahead to be given a victory, and that is totally up to opinion.
You can't spout stuff like that then qualify it with "but that is purely speculation". Either make an argument and back it up or don't make one.
Here's an example. Flash had very few units and a highly exposed base site which was vulnerable from 3 sides. To have any chance of holding onto it he must use his irradiates (if he had any which is dubious because he showed he had no energy just before) to somehow get the defilers before they get near him. This means that he could not use those same irradiates on the ultralisks. This means that he needed to use every last marine to hold onto that mineral only against ultralisks because otherwise he'd lose.
Because of the above, Flash would not be attacking one of JaeDong's expansions. A player does not choose to trade a mining base each when he only had one and his opponent is taking a 5th. And that's not just speculation.
You see how it's done. Not only did I give my opinion but I also mentioned some facts that gave it weight. Now you try.
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United States42955 Posts
On January 24 2010 04:01 Sadistx wrote:
If there's even the slightest chance that the outcome of the game is not clear, a regame should be granted, if both players agree, possibly on a different, but common map (that both players have played on before).
If one player had an advantage over the other in a game, and the game ends in a technical difficulty (it doesn't matter whose), a regame isn't actually screwing him over, because the goal is to get your opponent to gg legitimately. I'm pretty sure you don't get to claim a victory in any other sport or on Iccup by getting an advantage and then decide to leave and then petition to get the points for having "an advantage". How much is an "advantage" worth? Half a match point? 0.55? Do they round it down then? Who decides?
No sport that desires a modicum of respect and no true sportsman with any integrity will accept victory by committee through "advantage", because it's entirely subjective.
Advantage isn't entirely subjective. How did you get that idea? If at the start of the game I have 12 carriers and you have a burning command centre, 20 minerals and no scvs I have the advantage. That's not subjective. It just is.
This wasn't just an advantage. Flash was on the verge of gging. Had he been eager to play on Fighting Spirit he'd have already gged.
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On January 24 2010 04:08 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 04:01 Sadistx wrote:
If there's even the slightest chance that the outcome of the game is not clear, a regame should be granted, if both players agree, possibly on a different, but common map (that both players have played on before).
If one player had an advantage over the other in a game, and the game ends in a technical difficulty (it doesn't matter whose), a regame isn't actually screwing him over, because the goal is to get your opponent to gg legitimately. I'm pretty sure you don't get to claim a victory in any other sport or on Iccup by getting an advantage and then decide to leave and then petition to get the points for having "an advantage". How much is an "advantage" worth? Half a match point? 0.55? Do they round it down then? Who decides?
No sport that desires a modicum of respect and no true sportsman with any integrity will accept victory by committee through "advantage", because it's entirely subjective. Advantage isn't entirely subjective. How did you get that idea? If at the start of the game I have 12 carriers and you have a burning command centre, 20 minerals and no scvs I have the advantage. That's not subjective. It just is. This wasn't just an advantage. Flash was on the verge of gging. Had he been eager to play on Fighting Spirit he'd have already gged.
Read my first sentence. Again and again.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On January 24 2010 04:01 Sadistx wrote:
If there's even the slightest chance that the outcome of the game is not clear, a regame should be granted, if both players agree, possibly on a different, but common map (that both players have played on before).
If one player had an advantage over the other in a game, and the game ends in a technical difficulty (it doesn't matter whose), a regame isn't actually screwing him over, because the goal is to get your opponent to gg legitimately. I'm pretty sure you don't get to claim a victory in any other sport or on Iccup by getting an advantage and then decide to leave and then petition to get the points for having "an advantage". How much is an "advantage" worth? Half a match point? 0.55? Do they round it down then? Who decides?
No sport that desires a modicum of respect and no true sportsman with any integrity will accept victory by committee through "advantage", because it's entirely subjective.
Your arguments are all over the place here.
"a regame isn't actually screwing him over, because the goal is to get your opponent to gg legitimately"... this makes absolutely no sense lol. Let's say you have a 95% chance of making your opponent "legitimately gg" and a blackout happens. Let's say there is a rule that grants automatic regames. Now you're back at the beginning and you only have a 50% chance of getting your opponent to "gg legitimately." This obviously screws you over!
"I'm pretty sure you don't get to claim a victory in any other sport or on Iccup by getting an advantage and then decide to leave" No one decided to leave! And there's a precedent for granting a win if an event ends and one side has the lead: in MLB, teams with the lead after 6 innings get the win if the game is rained out.
"Who decides?" the refs decide; that's their job
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United States42955 Posts
On January 24 2010 04:09 Sadistx wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 04:08 KwarK wrote:On January 24 2010 04:01 Sadistx wrote:
If there's even the slightest chance that the outcome of the game is not clear, a regame should be granted, if both players agree, possibly on a different, but common map (that both players have played on before).
If one player had an advantage over the other in a game, and the game ends in a technical difficulty (it doesn't matter whose), a regame isn't actually screwing him over, because the goal is to get your opponent to gg legitimately. I'm pretty sure you don't get to claim a victory in any other sport or on Iccup by getting an advantage and then decide to leave and then petition to get the points for having "an advantage". How much is an "advantage" worth? Half a match point? 0.55? Do they round it down then? Who decides?
No sport that desires a modicum of respect and no true sportsman with any integrity will accept victory by committee through "advantage", because it's entirely subjective. Advantage isn't entirely subjective. How did you get that idea? If at the start of the game I have 12 carriers and you have a burning command centre, 20 minerals and no scvs I have the advantage. That's not subjective. It just is. This wasn't just an advantage. Flash was on the verge of gging. Had he been eager to play on Fighting Spirit he'd have already gged. Read my first sentence. Again and again.
There is not the slightest chance that the outcome of the game was not clear. The subjective defence is a defence grounded in human ignorance. It's based around the false premise that all humans are of equal judgement, therefore all opinions that a human will support are of equal merit. This is not true, many humans are idiots and their subjective opinions should be discounted. This is one of those cases.
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I remember the July vs Bisu game where July was about to take down the gateway a second before DTs came out. Even if the DTs came out, Bisu would stil probably be screwed. They gave the game to July.
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On January 24 2010 03:30 Xxio wrote:
You failed to mention several things, like the fact that both those ultras were practically dead, a new wave of medic marine was coming from Flash's base, there were no drones at JD's 3rd, his natural had maybe not even 1 drone per mineral patch, JD got his 1st and 2nd gas around the same time as Flash so if Flash was about to run out, so was JD
"What Jaedong accomplished against Flash cements him as the greatest player of all time"
Yeah, getting that free win and then a 4th game that was a joke is really something. At least hide your bias when your writing something like this.
You're so wrong.
As many have said, Flash was on the retreat.
JD was about to establish top right as well. That would have been his 6th gas.
JD's 3:00 was well saturated. Watch the mini-map in the game more closely. Flash attacks JD's top right at 14:00 on the VOD, at 14:07 JD's whole drone line escapes south (8-10 drones). When Flash hits JD's base at 3:00, the drones are nowhere to be seen either. They were safely out of range. JD proceeds to slaughter Flash's whole army and (presumably) transfer those drones directly to his 3:00. That was about 4.5 minutes before the disconnect; saying the base was in anything but full-production mode is crazy.
Flash did a legitimate strat in game 4, and JD read him like a book. If Flash cracked under the pressure, it's his fault. Reading JD's interview, it's obvious that he worked hard to remain mentally strong going into game 4.
JD deserved the win and the title easy. He was the pacesetter in all 4 games. His preparation and execution was simply unreal.
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United States7166 Posts
what is this "advantage" nonsense
he didn't just have an "advantage," he all but won the game. but dont take my word for it, who am I? just ask any of the top players. but oh wait idra/ret already said this...
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I hope in the near future we can forget all this drama crap and focus on the great games the series provided us.
We should be talking about Flash's BEAUTIFUL counter in game 2.
He had one chance to win that game, one timing, and he found it. He didn't overreact to the guardians and only makes a few wraiths so he can make the drop ships and vessels he needs. Then he elevators his troops in and gives a marine micro clinic to take the game.
We should also be talking about Jaedong's phenomenal BoX play. Defying the odds he takes a convincing win in Game1 with brute determination and shows incredible resilience to hold out in game3 til his upgrade and tech advantage kick in to take the game. Then in Game4 he reads Flash's playbook perfectly and predicts the 8rax deflecting it with ease.
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Canada5565 Posts
On January 24 2010 04:05 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 03:54 Xxio wrote:
If you look at Flash's base on the mini map you can see many yellow dots (medic marine) being produced and moving from his main base to a rally point. On one of the last frames you can see one of these dots in the stream out below the yellow-blob that is Flash's natural. They weren't scvs because he'd already sent them.
Jaedong had 3 geysers (not counting natural, main), 2 extractors as far as we know, and was mining from 1 of them. Jaedong was far ahead, however I don't think he could have held on to all the geysers but that is purely speculation.
What this really comes down to is whether Jaedong was far enough ahead to be given a victory, and that is totally up to opinion. You can't spout stuff like that then qualify it with "but that is purely speculation". Either make an argument and back it up or don't make one. Here's an example. Flash had very few units and a highly exposed base site which was vulnerable from 3 sides. To have any chance of holding onto it he must use his irradiates (if he had any which is dubious because he showed he had no energy just before) to somehow get the defilers before they get near him. This means that he could not use those same irradiates on the ultralisks. This means that he needed to use every last marine to hold onto that mineral only against ultralisks because otherwise he'd lose. Because of the above, Flash would not be attacking one of JaeDong's expansions. A player does not choose to trade a mining base each when he only had one and his opponent is taking a 5th. And that's not just speculation. You see how it's done. Not only did I give my opinion but I also mentioned some facts that gave it weight. Now you try.
Hold it against what? 3 ultralisk, 2 pracitcally dead and some lings? ohh, or are you speculating that suddenly a control group of gas units would appear?
When I make a post at least I point out which parts are opinionated.
I like how confidently you assume what Flash would have done. You're so cute!
btw, no, I wasn't presenting an argument, I was pointing out a number of things that happened during the match that people seem to always overlook or miss entirely. But good job, gotta keep that e-peen up right?
fuck this, i'm done.
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Great article.
Jaedong really showed in this series that while Flash might become the best player of all time in the future Jaedong HIMSELF is the greatest player RIGHT NOW.
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I don't think the judging to give JD the win was fair. If StarCraft was a game governed by time and there was PHYSICALLY NO CHANCE for Flash to win (a la a basketball game; the losing team is trailing by say 30 points and theres a minute left on the clock) it would be alright to make such a judgment. As it stands now, the situation is analogous to a tennis match wherein player A is up two sets to love to player B and player A is automatically awarded the win.
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No matter the argument, I can't help this tainted the overall series. Game 4 was a concede by flash by just doing a short build to end the series quickly, it was apparent he wasn't giving it his all. If starcraft wants to be taken seriously, shit like this can't happen. Considering the overall bad looks that the MSL has been giving, this is really hurting their reputation.
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On January 24 2010 04:18 Zelniq wrote:
what is this "advantage" nonsense
he didn't just have an "advantage," he all but won the game. but dont take my word for it, who am I? just ask any of the top players. but oh wait idra/ret already said this...
but oh wait, idra already said that you DON'T just give the game over to one player or the other
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
On January 24 2010 04:20 Xxio wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 04:05 KwarK wrote:On January 24 2010 03:54 Xxio wrote:
If you look at Flash's base on the mini map you can see many yellow dots (medic marine) being produced and moving from his main base to a rally point. On one of the last frames you can see one of these dots in the stream out below the yellow-blob that is Flash's natural. They weren't scvs because he'd already sent them.
Jaedong had 3 geysers (not counting natural, main), 2 extractors as far as we know, and was mining from 1 of them. Jaedong was far ahead, however I don't think he could have held on to all the geysers but that is purely speculation.
What this really comes down to is whether Jaedong was far enough ahead to be given a victory, and that is totally up to opinion. You can't spout stuff like that then qualify it with "but that is purely speculation". Either make an argument and back it up or don't make one. Here's an example. Flash had very few units and a highly exposed base site which was vulnerable from 3 sides. To have any chance of holding onto it he must use his irradiates (if he had any which is dubious because he showed he had no energy just before) to somehow get the defilers before they get near him. This means that he could not use those same irradiates on the ultralisks. This means that he needed to use every last marine to hold onto that mineral only against ultralisks because otherwise he'd lose. Because of the above, Flash would not be attacking one of JaeDong's expansions. A player does not choose to trade a mining base each when he only had one and his opponent is taking a 5th. And that's not just speculation. You see how it's done. Not only did I give my opinion but I also mentioned some facts that gave it weight. Now you try. Hold it against what? 3 ultralisk, 2 pracitcally dead and some lings? ohh, or are you speculating that suddenly a control group of gas units would appear? When I make a post at least I point out which parts are opinionated. I like how confidently you assume what Flash would have done. You're so cute! btw, no, I wasn't presenting an argument, I was pointing out a number of things that happened during the match that people seem to always overlook or miss entirely. But good job, gotta keep that e-peen up right? fuck this, i'm done.
Have fun playing those D level iccup games you play. Unless you've played at much higher levels, I don't expect you to understand the game dynamics.
Or watch the vod again. You'll see Jaedong streaming constant units to his 7 expo. Watch the mini map.
From every single expo you could see units being sent constantly to 7. Even his 3rd.
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United States42955 Posts
On January 24 2010 04:20 Xxio wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 04:05 KwarK wrote:On January 24 2010 03:54 Xxio wrote:
If you look at Flash's base on the mini map you can see many yellow dots (medic marine) being produced and moving from his main base to a rally point. On one of the last frames you can see one of these dots in the stream out below the yellow-blob that is Flash's natural. They weren't scvs because he'd already sent them.
Jaedong had 3 geysers (not counting natural, main), 2 extractors as far as we know, and was mining from 1 of them. Jaedong was far ahead, however I don't think he could have held on to all the geysers but that is purely speculation.
What this really comes down to is whether Jaedong was far enough ahead to be given a victory, and that is totally up to opinion. You can't spout stuff like that then qualify it with "but that is purely speculation". Either make an argument and back it up or don't make one. Here's an example. Flash had very few units and a highly exposed base site which was vulnerable from 3 sides. To have any chance of holding onto it he must use his irradiates (if he had any which is dubious because he showed he had no energy just before) to somehow get the defilers before they get near him. This means that he could not use those same irradiates on the ultralisks. This means that he needed to use every last marine to hold onto that mineral only against ultralisks because otherwise he'd lose. Because of the above, Flash would not be attacking one of JaeDong's expansions. A player does not choose to trade a mining base each when he only had one and his opponent is taking a 5th. And that's not just speculation. You see how it's done. Not only did I give my opinion but I also mentioned some facts that gave it weight. Now you try. Hold it against what? 3 ultralisk, 2 pracitcally dead and some lings? ohh, or are you speculating that suddenly a control group of gas units would appear? When I make a post at least I point out which parts are opinionated. I like how confidently you assume what Flash would have done. You're so cute! btw, no, I wasn't presenting an argument, I was pointing out a number of things that happened during the match that people seem to always overlook or miss entirely. But good job, gotta keep that e-peen up right? fuck this, i'm done.
3 ultralisks and 2 defilers were actually enough to win it so yeah, lol. Do you realise how many marine hits an ultralisk can take. They have 400hp. That's 100 marine hits with their armour. Assuming there is no swarm.
You're right you weren't presenting an argument. That was my problem with it. You were bullshitting about things in a tone which could be mistaken for a credible argument by a casual observer. And not only on things that happened but also on things that didn't happen and couldn't have happened. These things should be pointed out, both so impressionable people don't reach the incorrect conclusions and to improve the posting quality of the people doing it.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
Kwark I'm 100% convinced people claiming Flash wasn't at a disadvantage don't play starcraft at all.
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What is really sad that the opportunity to saw a great ending to one of the best games I've ever seen has been taken away from us. The discussion should focus on MBC hate and not on the decision to give JD the win. No matter what, Jaedong deserves the title and Flash is a great player. That's about it, and now bring on the MBC hate.
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EPT
