I really wanted Flash to win last night. I was expecting him to win. Please do not take this article as the deluded rantings of a Jaedong fan.
In this article I want to do two things:
- Show, conclusively, that Jaedong had an overwhelming advantage in Game 3 of the MSL Finals at the time of the disconnect - Devise a theory regarding whether a regame should be granted, and show that, according to that theory, a regame should not have been granted
Flash was way behind at the time of the disconnect
In order to show that Jaedong had a large advantage, we need to work backwards. Here is the situation at Jaedong's 7 o' clock base the end of the game:
I claim that the vessels are below 75 energy because the defiler was in their sight for it to be irradiated if it could be irradiated.
The yellow blob at the bottom left is Flash's MnM army. It is moving away from Jaedong's base and going to his mineral-only at 9 o' clock to defend. A few seconds after the above snapshot, a second defiler appears on-screen. Flash apparently decided that attacking an expansion defended by two unirradiated defilers and a few ultras would be unsuccessful.
At almost the exact moment of this screenshot, Jaedong took a fifth gas base at the top right. It's difficult to see, but if you look closely at the VOD, you'll see that he moved a drone there for a while, lets it sit there while he defended bottom left, and made the hatchery very late.
Flash, on the other hand, was extremely gas-poor. Let me quote an excellent piece of analysis by EvoChamber in this blog:
[Flash's] first refinery finished at 3:20, his second refinery at 7:40. Gas mines at 100 units every 20 seconds. This leaves Flash at the time of the blackout with 400 gas left in his main geyser and 1700 gas left at his natural geyser.
Flash had just expanded to a mineral only, so no new geyser was forthcoming. In order to defend against Jaedong's gas-heavy army, Flash really needed tanks and science vessels. He was rapidly approaching a point at which he wouldn't be able to pump vessels from two ports, let alone tanks as well.
Flash was also hurting for minerals at the time of the blackout. Again, I cite EvoChamber's excellent observational skills:
At 17:49 we see one of the patches at Flash's natural disappear; given how well Flash maynards and how thick he saturated his lines, there's no doubt that the other patches were almost exhausted as well. Flash's main was mined out. He had just begun mining the six fresh patches at the mineral only south of his natural.
That's 17:49 on the game clock, not the VOD clock. Soon after the blackout, Flash would have found himself with only six mineral patches total being mined.
Let's sum up:
- Jaedong was on four gas and had a fifth gas building - Flash was fast approaching depletion in both his nat and main geysers, and the expansion he had just taken had no geyser - Flash was about to mine out his natural. Jaedong had more mineral patches than his drones could handle - All of Jaedong's expansions were secure - Flash had ZERO tanks. He did not even have a machine shop. No Flash vs Calm Game 3 this time around.
Flash was very, very behind. I give him, conservatively, an 85% chance of losing. It is difficult to visualize a situation in which Jaedong made enough mistakes to let Flash back in the game.
Should a rematch have been granted anyway?
When KeSPA was huddling after the blackout, they had to make a decision that would screw over one of the two players one way or the other. Either the player winning the match would be screwed over by a rematch being granted, forcing him to start from scratch, or the player losing would be screwed over by NOT having a rematch, denying that player of the opportunity to come back.
I posit that in these situations, it is best to take the course of action that screws over a player by the least amount.
Let's take a look at how giving the win to Jaedong affected Flash. Flash was denied the opportunity to come back. About 15% of the time, he would have won Game 3. Very simple.
Jaedong, in my opinion, would have been screwed over in a big way if a regame had been granted. The two players would have started from scratch on Odd-Eye, a map for which there is overwhelming evidence of Terran imbalance. Jaedong thumbed Odd-Eye down, over maps such as Ultimatum (62.5% TvZ) and Match Point (66.7% TvZ). Odd-Eye itself was 71.4% TvZ before the series.
In other words, granting a regame would not have put both players on equal ground. It would have taken away Jaedong's huge advantage and given it to Flash. I find that option to be absolutely unacceptable and would still be raising a huge fuss about it if it had taken place.
What Jaedong accomplished against Flash cements him as the greatest player of all time. He overcame unfavorable maps and the best TvZ player ever in order to claim his third individual league championship in three seasons. Plexa's TLFE has never been more relevant.
edit: You should have said something more about the 5 gas jaedong soon would have got. 5 gas equals 7,5 ultralisks in a minute. Considering the fact that Flash only got a few mineral patches left, (which maybe equals one mineral expansion only) and this will produce something more than 1000 minerals in a minute, Jaedong produces more gas than Flash produces minerals. 1000/50 means 20 marines per minute. Jaedong could have easily taken out Flash with ultralisks only.
im actually ok with that game being given to JD, what isnt ok is the way it was done. Such loooooooooooooooooooooooong pause consisting of arguing had clearly influnce on both players in game 4. I doubt anyone would argue flash wasnt playing on top of his skills. This situation shouldnt happened in the first place. MBC screwed it already before the finals started, hopefully they wont find any sponsor and gom will do super duper league with english commentary. Oh, sweet dreams...
Even a 15% chance of winning is being very generous here. Flash is pulling back from 7 because he can't break it and JD has an economy more than twice the size.
I think you're neglecting how big an impact that disconnect had on Flash's 4th game.
It was basically either give the series to Jaedong because he deserved to win the 3rd game, or make the series exciting because having a regame won't depress either player, it'll just make them hungry.
I REALLY wanted Jaedong to win, but not like this.
No matter what it sucks both ways. An amazing series was ruined by a technical difficulty, and nothing short of going back in time and fixing the cables will change that. It's bullshit all the way around. The referee could a flipped a coin on the decision and it wouldn't matter. All he had to choose was which crappy decision to make. Neither can be justified.
On January 24 2010 02:57 Chef wrote: I think you're neglecting how big an impact that disconnect had on Flash's 4th game.
It was basically either give the series to Jaedong because he deserved to win the 3rd game, or make the series exciting because having a regame won't depress either player, it'll just make them hungry..
Thats the point exactly, it would have depressed Jaedong, because he just earned that game and had an insane advantage. On a map which is heavily Terran favored.
I don't think so. It would have pissed him off, but he wouldn't have played like shit the way Flash did. I mean, it still would have ruined the series because now Flash knows exactly what his build is... But I'm not arguing it would have been fair. I'm arguing we would have seen better games. The emotion felt from having an automatic loss, to having to replay a game is totally and absurdly different.
On January 24 2010 02:57 Chef wrote: I think you're neglecting how big an impact that disconnect had on Flash's 4th game.
It was basically either give the series to Jaedong because he deserved to win the 3rd game, or make the series exciting because having a regame won't depress either player, it'll just make them hungry..
Thats the point exactly, it would have depressed Jaedong, because he just earned that game and had an insane advantage. On a map which is heavily Terran favored.
It's really not clear. You know, you can not look in one's mind. This game could have make Jaedong more angry, because he knows that people will say that he did not earn this win.
How does the map's racial advantage have any effect on what the decision should have been? It doesn't matter if the map is 100% T>Z after 100 games, if the map is in the rotation, the T player deserves his fair shot to play the game on that map.
Don't take this as me taking Flash's side, but you are the 2nd person to point this fact out as a reason for giving JD the game, and it has no place in this argument.
On January 24 2010 02:57 Chef wrote: I think you're neglecting how big an impact that disconnect had on Flash's 4th game.
It was basically either give the series to Jaedong because he deserved to win the 3rd game, or make the series exciting because having a regame won't depress either player, it'll just make them hungry.
I REALLY wanted Jaedong to win, but not like this.
No matter what it sucks both ways. An amazing series was ruined by a technical difficulty, and nothing short of going back in time and fixing the cables will change that. It's bullshit all the way around. The referee could a flipped a coin on the decision and it wouldn't matter. All he had to choose was which crappy decision to make. Neither can be justified.
If Flash broke down mentally, it's his fault, not KeSPA's.
Flash's opening in game 4 is expected from his standard play. He has gone 8 rax plenty of times to bunker rush and damage Zerg's econ. He's done it recently to JD in the OSL, to Kwanro, and others. On top of this, he knows JD has been doing 3-hatch before pool to counter his FE so this is his counter to JD's counter. This BO is expected and reasonable. It's so expected and reasonable that JD read it and changed up.
On January 24 2010 02:57 Chef wrote: I think you're neglecting how big an impact that disconnect had on Flash's 4th game.
It was basically either give the series to Jaedong because he deserved to win the 3rd game, or make the series exciting because having a regame won't depress either player, it'll just make them hungry..
Thats the point exactly, it would have depressed Jaedong, because he just earned that game and had an insane advantage. On a map which is heavily Terran favored.
It's really not clear. You know, you can not look in one's mind. This game could have make Jaedong more angry, because he knows that people will say that he did not earn this win.
Yes, but the possibility of JD being angry is his mentality, not the inherent "betterness" of the situation. Same thing with Flash being dejected.
I honestly agree with this. It would've taken a miracle with a ridiculous amount of blundering on JD's part with Flash playing perfectly for Flash to have taken the game at that point. Is it possible? Yes. Is it reasonable to believe that this could have happened? No. Really, this was a Lose-Lose situation because this would have ultimately resulted in some sort of backlash and complaints either way. I really don't fault KeSPA for the decision they made given the situation as I think it was the correct one. The only thing here that angers me is that the system wasn't on some sort of UPS which would have prevented the blackout from affecting the actual gameplay. That, to me, was a terrible lack of foresight. Of course it's possible that it was and the UPS simply failed as well, but I find that case to be highly unlikely... =/ Whatever the case, this was a great event that was completely ruined by this power outage. I doubt either player came out satisfied because of this.
On January 24 2010 03:02 sixghost wrote: How does the map's racial advantage have any effect on what the decision should have been? It doesn't matter if the map is 100% T>Z after 100 games, if the map is in the rotation, the T player deserves his fair shot to play the game on that map.
If you feel that my overall theory that the decision should be made by who gets screwed over less is wrong, then please dispute that theory. If you let that theory stand, it follows that map balance is of the utmost importance. Your rhetoric about a "fair shot" or whatever is irrelevant.
the only sad thing is that JD was denied to make clear victory i think, even if kespa announced a rematch, JD take the seires he was better than flash this day
It was the correct decision. The long ass wait and ridiculous unpleasantry was not the correct decision. Not on Kespa's part, not on Flash's dad's part, and definitely not on KT's part, who as pro players should have understood who had the advantage.
On January 24 2010 03:07 pr0t0ss wrote: the only sad thing is that JD was denied to make clear victory i think, even if kespa announced a rematch, JD take the seires he was better than flash this day
Oh fuck, this reminds me of something I should have put in my article. Thanks, dude.
On January 24 2010 03:02 sixghost wrote: How does the map's racial advantage have any effect on what the decision should have been? It doesn't matter if the map is 100% T>Z after 100 games, if the map is in the rotation, the T player deserves his fair shot to play the game on that map.
If you feel that my overall theory that the decision should be made by who gets screwed over less is wrong, then please dispute that theory. If you let that theory stand, it follows that map balance is of the utmost importance. Your rhetoric about a "fair shot" or whatever is irrelevant.
So by that logic, you would feel less inclined to give Jaedong the game if set3 was taking place on a zerg favored map? The decision needed to be made based on the circumstances of the game.
On January 24 2010 03:02 sixghost wrote: How does the map's racial advantage have any effect on what the decision should have been? It doesn't matter if the map is 100% T>Z after 100 games, if the map is in the rotation, the T player deserves his fair shot to play the game on that map.
If you feel that my overall theory that the decision should be made by who gets screwed over less is wrong, then please dispute that theory. If you let that theory stand, it follows that map balance is of the utmost importance. Your rhetoric about a "fair shot" or whatever is irrelevant.
So by that logic, you would feel less inclined to give Jaedong the game if set3 was taking place on a zerg favored map? The decision needed to be made based on the circumstances of the game.
Yes, I would be less inclined. Think about this: a theoretical map is 99% in favor of zerg. Terrans simply cannot win against zerg on this map. In that situation, if Jaedong had an 85% chance of winning after 18 minutes, it would actually be beneficial for him to take a rematch.
I just watched the game and there was almost no way that Flash could have came back from the match. I agree with their decision, and even if there was no power outage, Flash would have been taken back mentally for the 4th game.
I think the wrong decision was made by KT for delaying the 4th set for so long, rather then KeSPA for making the right decision for once.
On January 24 2010 02:41 motbob wrote: Let's take a look at how giving the win to Jaedong affected Flash. Flash was denied the opportunity to come back. About 15% of the time, he would have won Game 3. Very simple.
On January 24 2010 03:02 sixghost wrote: How does the map's racial advantage have any effect on what the decision should have been? It doesn't matter if the map is 100% T>Z after 100 games, if the map is in the rotation, the T player deserves his fair shot to play the game on that map.
If you feel that my overall theory that the decision should be made by who gets screwed over less is wrong, then please dispute that theory. If you let that theory stand, it follows that map balance is of the utmost importance. Your rhetoric about a "fair shot" or whatever is irrelevant.
So by that logic, you would feel less inclined to give Jaedong the game if set3 was taking place on a zerg favored map? The decision needed to be made based on the circumstances of the game.
The circumstances of the game itself clearly favored JD immensely and the fact that it was on a Terran-favored map is just icing on the cake. The point is that to have them do a rematch when JD had already pretty much won the game and to subsequently take all that away and throw him back into a disadvantageous situation on a Terran-biased map with his build already divulged, would have been much more unreasonable than to give him the win that he clearly would have gotten anyway. Flash had a fair chance at the game and he lost. He didn't lose because KeSPA "took away his win", he lost because JD had just wrecked his army, he had less than half a dozen Vessels, no tanks, a dying economy and he was up against a 5-gas hive-tech Zerg...
On January 24 2010 02:41 motbob wrote: Let's take a look at how giving the win to Jaedong affected Flash. Flash was denied the opportunity to come back. About 15% of the time, he would have won Game 3. Very simple.
Bullshit, there was so much more than just that.
You gotta give me something to defend against here. I need an argument, not a disagreement.
On January 24 2010 03:02 sixghost wrote: How does the map's racial advantage have any effect on what the decision should have been? It doesn't matter if the map is 100% T>Z after 100 games, if the map is in the rotation, the T player deserves his fair shot to play the game on that map.
If you feel that my overall theory that the decision should be made by who gets screwed over less is wrong, then please dispute that theory. If you let that theory stand, it follows that map balance is of the utmost importance. Your rhetoric about a "fair shot" or whatever is irrelevant.
So by that logic, you would feel less inclined to give Jaedong the game if set3 was taking place on a zerg favored map? The decision needed to be made based on the circumstances of the game.
Yes, I would be less inclined. Think about this: a theoretical map is 99% in favor of zerg. Terrans simply cannot win against zerg on this map. In that situation, if Jaedong had an 85% chance of winning after 18 minutes, it would actually be beneficial for him to take a rematch.
If that's what you think, I can't argue with you. Map imbalance is a completely independent issue and shouldn't be factoring into a decision like this. Where in the rules does it say that interrupted games will be decided based on the players advantage in the game relative to the map imbalance that they are overcoming?
On January 24 2010 02:41 motbob wrote: Let's take a look at how giving the win to Jaedong affected Flash. Flash was denied the opportunity to come back. About 15% of the time, he would have won Game 3. Very simple.
Bullshit, there was so much more than just that.
You gotta give me something to defend against here. I need an argument, not a disagreement.
Haha, just kidding. Btw, there isn't anything to argue against in the OP. But no matter how much analysis, debating, etc etc you do, Flash is still the one getting fucked.
On January 24 2010 03:02 sixghost wrote: How does the map's racial advantage have any effect on what the decision should have been? It doesn't matter if the map is 100% T>Z after 100 games, if the map is in the rotation, the T player deserves his fair shot to play the game on that map.
If you feel that my overall theory that the decision should be made by who gets screwed over less is wrong, then please dispute that theory. If you let that theory stand, it follows that map balance is of the utmost importance. Your rhetoric about a "fair shot" or whatever is irrelevant.
So by that logic, you would feel less inclined to give Jaedong the game if set3 was taking place on a zerg favored map? The decision needed to be made based on the circumstances of the game.
Yes, I would be less inclined. Think about this: a theoretical map is 99% in favor of zerg. Terrans simply cannot win against zerg on this map. In that situation, if Jaedong had an 85% chance of winning after 18 minutes, it would actually be beneficial for him to take a rematch.
If that's what you think, I can't argue with you. Map imbalance is a completely independent issue and shouldn't be factoring into a decision like this. Where in the rules does it say that interrupted games will be decided based on the players advantage in the game relative to the map imbalance that they are overcoming?
I agree with this. Map balance ought not to enter into the decision-making. I can understand your why one might think that it should but it just seems wrong.
On January 24 2010 03:02 sixghost wrote: How does the map's racial advantage have any effect on what the decision should have been? It doesn't matter if the map is 100% T>Z after 100 games, if the map is in the rotation, the T player deserves his fair shot to play the game on that map.
If you feel that my overall theory that the decision should be made by who gets screwed over less is wrong, then please dispute that theory. If you let that theory stand, it follows that map balance is of the utmost importance. Your rhetoric about a "fair shot" or whatever is irrelevant.
So by that logic, you would feel less inclined to give Jaedong the game if set3 was taking place on a zerg favored map? The decision needed to be made based on the circumstances of the game.
The circumstances of the game itself clearly favored JD immensely and the fact that it was on a Terran-favored map is just icing on the cake. The point is that to have them do a rematch when JD had already pretty much won the game and to subsequently take all that away and throw him back into a disadvantageous situation on a Terran-biased map with his build already divulged, would have been much more unreasonable than to give him the win that he clearly would have gotten anyway. Flash had a fair chance at the game and he lost. He didn't lose because KeSPA "took away his win", he lost because JD had just wrecked his army, he had less than half a dozen Vessels, no tanks, a dying economy and he was up against a 5-gas hive-tech Zerg...
Your argument needs to stop right there. If you believe that JD had won the game, he should be given the win regardless of what map he is playing on.
On January 24 2010 03:02 sixghost wrote: How does the map's racial advantage have any effect on what the decision should have been? It doesn't matter if the map is 100% T>Z after 100 games, if the map is in the rotation, the T player deserves his fair shot to play the game on that map.
If you feel that my overall theory that the decision should be made by who gets screwed over less is wrong, then please dispute that theory. If you let that theory stand, it follows that map balance is of the utmost importance. Your rhetoric about a "fair shot" or whatever is irrelevant.
So by that logic, you would feel less inclined to give Jaedong the game if set3 was taking place on a zerg favored map? The decision needed to be made based on the circumstances of the game.
Yes, I would be less inclined. Think about this: a theoretical map is 99% in favor of zerg. Terrans simply cannot win against zerg on this map. In that situation, if Jaedong had an 85% chance of winning after 18 minutes, it would actually be beneficial for him to take a rematch.
If that's what you think, I can't argue with you. Map imbalance is a completely independent issue and shouldn't be factoring into a decision like this.
What's to argue? The hypothetical situation I described isn't an opinion. It's a fact. The zerg player WOULD be better off taking the rematch in my hypothetical case.
Where in the rules does it say that interrupted games will be decided based on the players advantage in the game relative to the map imbalance that they are overcoming?
Where in the rules does it say interrupted games should be decided by supply difference, or the number of bases, or map control, or the stuff that normal people talk about when they talk about having the advantage? It does not discuss that anywhere. The rules simply say that it is the referee's decision.
EDIT: you gotta understand that the refs probably didn't take map balance into account anyway. this is just what *I* think is the correct way of making the decision.
On January 24 2010 02:41 motbob wrote: Let's take a look at how giving the win to Jaedong affected Flash. Flash was denied the opportunity to come back. About 15% of the time, he would have won Game 3. Very simple.
Bullshit, there was so much more than just that.
You gotta give me something to defend against here. I need an argument, not a disagreement.
Haha, just kidding. Btw, there isn't anything to argue against in the OP. But no matter how much analysis, debating, etc etc you do, Flash is still the one getting fucked.
Yea, the issue was one of choosing the lesser of two evils. It would clearly disadvantage Jaedong to regame.
Yeah JD definitely won and it was the correct decision. I have no idea why people think that there should be a rematch when JD had a huuuuuge advantage at the time when both players got disconnected. I'd imagine the same decision would've been made for any sc league(including foreign clanleagues). What people don't seem to mention is that JD played a near perfect series. He went 3 hatch no pool games 2 and 3 vs flash's FE, and he went overpool vs flash's 8 rax in game 4. You could say that there might've been luck involved in guessing flash's BO each game, but I think it comes down to jaedong being as good as anyone in starcraft at planning build orders and strategies to use vs opponents in bo5 series. JD would make a great poker player ;o
You failed to mention several things, like the fact that both those ultras were practically dead, a new wave of medic marine was coming from Flash's base, there were no drones at JD's 3rd, his natural had maybe not even 1 drone per mineral patch, JD got his 1st and 2nd gas around the same time as Flash so if Flash was about to run out, so was JD
"What Jaedong accomplished against Flash cements him as the greatest player of all time" Yeah, getting that free win and then a 4th game that was a joke is really something. At least hide your bias when your writing something like this.
On January 24 2010 02:48 JadeFist wrote: Correct decision. I remember the Phillies won the world series from a game that was rained out in the middle when they were ahead.
Everyone considered it legit.
Everyone considered it legit because you're remembering it wrong and the score was tied when the game was suspended. It was resumed the next night and the Phillies went on to win.
That was a great analysis by motbob. There is no doubt that the third set was Jaedong's.
I was pretty sure Jaedong was going to win the moment he surrounded the huge MnM ball of death with ultralings and wiped it out. Flash lost map control at that point, and consequently Jaedong could place and defend his bottom left expo on the double gas. Flash lost because Jaedong found the week point on his aggressive MnM usage. Kill the fist big ball and T is left with a small army, no third base and no map control.
On January 24 2010 03:02 sixghost wrote: How does the map's racial advantage have any effect on what the decision should have been? It doesn't matter if the map is 100% T>Z after 100 games, if the map is in the rotation, the T player deserves his fair shot to play the game on that map.
If you feel that my overall theory that the decision should be made by who gets screwed over less is wrong, then please dispute that theory. If you let that theory stand, it follows that map balance is of the utmost importance. Your rhetoric about a "fair shot" or whatever is irrelevant.
So by that logic, you would feel less inclined to give Jaedong the game if set3 was taking place on a zerg favored map? The decision needed to be made based on the circumstances of the game.
Yes, I would be less inclined. Think about this: a theoretical map is 99% in favor of zerg. Terrans simply cannot win against zerg on this map. In that situation, if Jaedong had an 85% chance of winning after 18 minutes, it would actually be beneficial for him to take a rematch.
If that's what you think, I can't argue with you. Map imbalance is a completely independent issue and shouldn't be factoring into a decision like this.
What's to argue? The hypothetical situation I described isn't an opinion. It's a fact. The zerg player WOULD be better off taking the rematch in my hypothetical case.
Where in the rules does it say that interrupted games will be decided based on the players advantage in the game relative to the map imbalance that they are overcoming?
Where in the rules does it say interrupted games should be decided by supply difference, or the number of bases, or map control, or the stuff that normal people talk about when they talk about having the advantage? It does not discuss that anywhere. The rules simply say that it is the referee's decision.
What other arbitrary factors would you like the referee's to base their judgment on? The number of fans a certain player had at the match? The number of hours a given player had available to practice? How tired a certain player is?
Having to rematch on a map that is clearly T>Z obviously would have been a detriment to JDs chances at winning, but so was having to play that map in the first place. Matches need to be judges solely on the situation both players are in when the game is stopped, and nothing else. If that's what the KeSPA judges did, then I can't fault them.
On January 24 2010 03:30 Xxio wrote: You failed to mention several things, like the fact that both those ultras were practically dead, a new wave of medic marine was coming from Flash's base, there were no drones at JD's 3rd, his natural had maybe not even 1 drone per mineral patch, JD got his 1st and 2nd gas around the same time as Flash so if Flash was about to run out, so was JD
"What Jaedong accomplished against Flash cements him as the greatest player of all time" Yeah, getting that free win and then a 4th game that was a joke is really something. At least hide your bias when your writing something like this.
Hey, I'm not the expert here. Flash is. And Flash was retreating, giving up trying to break the bottom left. So if you feel like Flash could have busted the 4th and 5th gas, you should take it up with him, not me.
In all seriousness, you're totally wrong. Flash had reinforcements? That's your argument? So did Jaedong, man. Jaedong was about to run out of gas at his main and nat too? HE HAD THREE OTHER GEYSERS. And maybe JD's drone sat wasn't all that great, but it's better than having 6 mineral patches total rofl.
On January 24 2010 03:30 Xxio wrote: You failed to mention several things, like the fact that both those ultras were practically dead, a new wave of medic marine was coming from Flash's base, there were no drones at JD's 3rd, his natural had maybe not even 1 drone per mineral patch, JD got his 1st and 2nd gas around the same time as Flash so if Flash was about to run out, so was JD
"What Jaedong accomplished against Flash cements him as the greatest player of all time" Yeah, getting that free win and then a 4th game that was a joke is really something. At least hide your bias when your writing something like this.
There was no new wave on MnM moving towards Jaedong's base. The last "wave" was moving away from Jaedong's base for a last defense which would not work thanks to darkswarm. This kind of screws your analysis, doesn't it? Flash knew he wasn't breaking Jaedong's fourth. Maybe you want do disagree with Flash on this one?
On January 24 2010 03:30 Xxio wrote: You failed to mention several things, like the fact that both those ultras were practically dead, a new wave of medic marine was coming from Flash's base, there were no drones at JD's 3rd, his natural had maybe not even 1 drone per mineral patch, JD got his 1st and 2nd gas around the same time as Flash so if Flash was about to run out, so was JD
"What Jaedong accomplished against Flash cements him as the greatest player of all time" Yeah, getting that free win and then a 4th game that was a joke is really something. At least hide your bias when your writing something like this.
It doesn't matter that Flash had a few extra MM coming because his vessels are out of energy and JD has defilers along with the 2 ultras and one more running up. It's impossible for Flash to crack JD's 7, which is why he retreated back to 9 o'clock.
On January 24 2010 03:02 sixghost wrote: How does the map's racial advantage have any effect on what the decision should have been? It doesn't matter if the map is 100% T>Z after 100 games, if the map is in the rotation, the T player deserves his fair shot to play the game on that map.
If you feel that my overall theory that the decision should be made by who gets screwed over less is wrong, then please dispute that theory. If you let that theory stand, it follows that map balance is of the utmost importance. Your rhetoric about a "fair shot" or whatever is irrelevant.
So by that logic, you would feel less inclined to give Jaedong the game if set3 was taking place on a zerg favored map? The decision needed to be made based on the circumstances of the game.
Yes, I would be less inclined. Think about this: a theoretical map is 99% in favor of zerg. Terrans simply cannot win against zerg on this map. In that situation, if Jaedong had an 85% chance of winning after 18 minutes, it would actually be beneficial for him to take a rematch.
If that's what you think, I can't argue with you. Map imbalance is a completely independent issue and shouldn't be factoring into a decision like this.
What's to argue? The hypothetical situation I described isn't an opinion. It's a fact. The zerg player WOULD be better off taking the rematch in my hypothetical case.
Where in the rules does it say that interrupted games will be decided based on the players advantage in the game relative to the map imbalance that they are overcoming?
Where in the rules does it say interrupted games should be decided by supply difference, or the number of bases, or map control, or the stuff that normal people talk about when they talk about having the advantage? It does not discuss that anywhere. The rules simply say that it is the referee's decision.
What other arbitrary factors would you like the referee's to base their judgment on? The number of fans a certain player had at the match? The number of hours a given player had available to practice? How tired a certain player is?
Having to rematch on a map that is clearly T>Z obviously would have been a detriment to JDs chances at winning, but so was having to play that map in the first place. Matches need to be judges solely on the situation both players are in when the game is stopped, and nothing else. If that's what the KeSPA judges did, then I can't fault them.
Again, you're not addressing the crux of my argument, which is: if you believe that the objective of the ref is to screw someone over the least amount possible, then it follows that map balance is an important factor. Reading your posts, it's obvious that you've got a different theory of what the proper way to make the decision is so I guess I can agree to disagree if you can.
On January 24 2010 03:02 sixghost wrote: How does the map's racial advantage have any effect on what the decision should have been? It doesn't matter if the map is 100% T>Z after 100 games, if the map is in the rotation, the T player deserves his fair shot to play the game on that map.
If you feel that my overall theory that the decision should be made by who gets screwed over less is wrong, then please dispute that theory. If you let that theory stand, it follows that map balance is of the utmost importance. Your rhetoric about a "fair shot" or whatever is irrelevant.
So by that logic, you would feel less inclined to give Jaedong the game if set3 was taking place on a zerg favored map? The decision needed to be made based on the circumstances of the game.
Yes, I would be less inclined. Think about this: a theoretical map is 99% in favor of zerg. Terrans simply cannot win against zerg on this map. In that situation, if Jaedong had an 85% chance of winning after 18 minutes, it would actually be beneficial for him to take a rematch.
If that's what you think, I can't argue with you. Map imbalance is a completely independent issue and shouldn't be factoring into a decision like this.
What's to argue? The hypothetical situation I described isn't an opinion. It's a fact. The zerg player WOULD be better off taking the rematch in my hypothetical case.
Where in the rules does it say that interrupted games will be decided based on the players advantage in the game relative to the map imbalance that they are overcoming?
Where in the rules does it say interrupted games should be decided by supply difference, or the number of bases, or map control, or the stuff that normal people talk about when they talk about having the advantage? It does not discuss that anywhere. The rules simply say that it is the referee's decision.
What other arbitrary factors would you like the referee's to base their judgment on? The number of fans a certain player had at the match? The number of hours a given player had available to practice? How tired a certain player is?
Having to rematch on a map that is clearly T>Z obviously would have been a detriment to JDs chances at winning, but so was having to play that map in the first place. Matches need to be judges solely on the situation both players are in when the game is stopped, and nothing else. If that's what the KeSPA judges did, then I can't fault them.
Again, you're not addressing the crux of my argument, which is: if you believe that the objective of the ref is to screw someone over the least amount possible, then it follows that map balance is an important factor. Reading your posts, it's obvious that you've got a different theory of what the proper way to make the decision is so I guess I can agree to disagree if you can.
I don't understand why your definition of "screwing someone over the least" includes anything but the game at hand. Introducing anything more than that is just overcomplicating the process. For instance, what if Oddeye was less imbalanced, would Jaedong have needed to be slightly more ahead to still be awarded the game?
Yes, Jaedong was ahead - but a comeback was possible. The thing that bothers me most was how KeSpa shove it down their throats. 3 Mins commercials break aren't enough to fully analyse the VoDs and talk to the players involved. They just looked at the VoD quickly and made the announcement right after...
Everyone is forgetting that with swarm, no matter how damaged units are, a base is literally impervious to attack by MnM. Unless Flash could have irradiated Jaedong's other defilers, there's no chance that he could have busted down to 7 and taken it out. Also consider that a swarm over the Drones would have bought enough time for reinforcements to arrive, so I'd consider that game in the bag for JD barring some spectacular play from Flash.
However, considering how JD was playing, I don't think Flash could have taken down JD. JD was consistently sniping down Vessels with scourge, which is vital to stopping SK Terran. Ultra count doesn't matter too much considering that they're much more replaceable than Vessels. Vessels are the literal backbone of Terran strategy, while Swarm and Lings can delay Terran long enough until enough gas is mined to get Ultras.
Basically I'm saying that after JD fended off bottom left, he could have camped indefinitely while mining off of like 6 gas until he had enough units to run over a 1 Base 2 gas Terran.
On January 24 2010 03:02 sixghost wrote: How does the map's racial advantage have any effect on what the decision should have been? It doesn't matter if the map is 100% T>Z after 100 games, if the map is in the rotation, the T player deserves his fair shot to play the game on that map.
If you feel that my overall theory that the decision should be made by who gets screwed over less is wrong, then please dispute that theory. If you let that theory stand, it follows that map balance is of the utmost importance. Your rhetoric about a "fair shot" or whatever is irrelevant.
So by that logic, you would feel less inclined to give Jaedong the game if set3 was taking place on a zerg favored map? The decision needed to be made based on the circumstances of the game.
Yes, I would be less inclined. Think about this: a theoretical map is 99% in favor of zerg. Terrans simply cannot win against zerg on this map. In that situation, if Jaedong had an 85% chance of winning after 18 minutes, it would actually be beneficial for him to take a rematch.
If that's what you think, I can't argue with you. Map imbalance is a completely independent issue and shouldn't be factoring into a decision like this.
What's to argue? The hypothetical situation I described isn't an opinion. It's a fact. The zerg player WOULD be better off taking the rematch in my hypothetical case.
Where in the rules does it say that interrupted games will be decided based on the players advantage in the game relative to the map imbalance that they are overcoming?
Where in the rules does it say interrupted games should be decided by supply difference, or the number of bases, or map control, or the stuff that normal people talk about when they talk about having the advantage? It does not discuss that anywhere. The rules simply say that it is the referee's decision.
What other arbitrary factors would you like the referee's to base their judgment on? The number of fans a certain player had at the match? The number of hours a given player had available to practice? How tired a certain player is?
Having to rematch on a map that is clearly T>Z obviously would have been a detriment to JDs chances at winning, but so was having to play that map in the first place. Matches need to be judges solely on the situation both players are in when the game is stopped, and nothing else. If that's what the KeSPA judges did, then I can't fault them.
Again, you're not addressing the crux of my argument, which is: if you believe that the objective of the ref is to screw someone over the least amount possible, then it follows that map balance is an important factor. Reading your posts, it's obvious that you've got a different theory of what the proper way to make the decision is so I guess I can agree to disagree if you can.
I don't understand why your definition of "screwing someone over the least" includes anything but the game at hand. Introducing anything more than that just overcomplicating the process. For instance, what if Oddeye was a less imbalanced, would Jaedong have needed to be slightly more ahead to still be awarded the game?
motbob I agree with your game analysis but not your conclusion. I'm busting ass on a school assignment that's due in 3hrs15min right now, but if I've still got any steam left when I finish I will make another OP with my argument.
You people need to start watching more games. JD was far ahead I'll agree to that.
The decision by KESPA (or whoever) was probably the right one provided the ONLY alternative was to start over.
Yet Flash had a chance... Starting the game over would have been extremely lame for JD and beneficial to Flash so it wouldn't have been any better. However, to say that the game was 99% in Jaedong's favor is ridiculous. Flash is a very capable player and we've seen him pull out of much worse...
What's actually unfair is, as it has been mentioned, it's a lot harder to play after losing a game in such a way. I think it's likely that Flash would have played much differently in game 4 if game 3 had ended normally. This is not to say he wouldn't have lost. Maybe he would have done the same thing, but who's to say Flash's brain works in such a linear fashion?
I certainly wouldn't make such an assumption. I think only a simpleton would.
On January 24 2010 03:46 JWD wrote: motbob I agree with a lot of your OP but not your conclusion. I'm busting ass on a school assignment that's due in 3hrs15min right now, but if I've still got any steam left when I finish I will make another OP with my argument.
Bring it on!! I will fight to the death to defend my Starcraft analysis honor!!
On January 24 2010 03:47 Djzapz wrote: You people need to start watching more games. JD was far ahead I'll agree to that.
The decision by KESPA (or whoever) was probably the right one provided the ONLY alternative was to start over.
Yet Flash had a chance... Starting the game over would have been extremely lame for JD and beneficial to Flash so it wouldn't have been any better. However, to say that the game was 99% in Jaedong's favor is ridiculous. Flash is a very capable player and we've seen him pull out of much worse...
What's actually unfair is, as it has been mentioned, it's a lot harder to play after losing a game in such a way. I think it's likely that Flash would have played much differently in game 4 if game 3 had ended normally. This is not to say he wouldn't have lost. Maybe he would have done the same thing, but who's to say Flash's brain works in such a linear fashion?
I certainly wouldn't make such an assumption. I think only a simpleton would.
The real problem here is MBC's stupidity.
When have we seen Flash come back from much worse? In fact, when has a player even been in much worse? He had one group of marines and medics. His only factory was flying. His 4 science vessels had low energy. If I'd swapped places with JD I could have still won that game. From what we could see JD had 4 ultralisks and 2 defilers with energy along with a few lings and scourge. That alone was enough units to win the game straight off. Add in the fact that he was capable of producing an ultralisk every 8 seconds or so (assuming he felt like going pure ultra) and that Flash lacked a single unit that could kill an ultralisk, even if they aren't under swarm, and I really don't see why 99% isn't being generous to Flash.
If you look at Flash's base on the mini map you can see many yellow dots (medic marine) being produced and moving from his main base to a rally point. On one of the last frames you can see one of these dots in the stream out below the yellow-blob that is Flash's natural. They weren't scvs because he'd already sent them.
Jaedong had 3 geysers (not counting natural, main), 2 extractors as far as we know, and was mining from 1 of them. Jaedong was far ahead, however I don't think he could have held on to all the geysers but that is purely speculation. What this really comes down to is whether Jaedong was far enough ahead to be given a victory, and that is totally up to opinion.
I don't know why the main focus of discussion is on whether or not Jaedong should have been given the game. It was pretty clear that giving him the point was at least as fair as replaying (it'd be making JD throw away his considerable advantage or robbing Flash of a small chance at a comeback).
The real issue is how Kespa (or whoever) actually allowed Flash's dad and coaches to turn it into a 1 hour shitstorm. It's completely unprofessional. The ref's decision in such a situation should be final and it's unheard of to allow someone's parents or coaches come and delay things for a whole hour.
Not only did it ruin things for the audience, it ruined it for Flash. The longer they were allowed to complain the harder it was gonna be for Flash to just brush it away for the next game. As things went, it was pretty obvious how it affected Flash.
If there's even the slightest chance that the outcome of the game is not clear, a regame should be granted, if both players agree, possibly on a different, but common map (that both players have played on before).
If one player had an advantage over the other in a game, and the game ends in a technical difficulty (it doesn't matter whose), a regame isn't actually screwing him over, because the goal is to get your opponent to gg legitimately. I'm pretty sure you don't get to claim a victory in any other sport or on Iccup by getting an advantage and then decide to leave and then petition to get the points for having "an advantage". How much is an "advantage" worth? Half a match point? 0.55? Do they round it down then? Who decides?
No sport that desires a modicum of respect and no true sportsman with any integrity will accept victory by committee through "advantage", because it's entirely subjective.
On January 24 2010 03:54 Xxio wrote: If you look at Flash's base on the mini map you can see many yellow dots (medic marine) being produced and moving from his main base to a rally point. On one of the last frames you can see one of these dots in the stream out below the yellow-blob that is Flash's natural. They weren't scvs because he'd already sent them.
Jaedong had 3 geysers (not counting natural, main), 2 extractors as far as we know, and was mining from 1 of them. Jaedong was far ahead, however I don't think he could have held on to all the geysers but that is purely speculation. What this really comes down to is whether Jaedong was far enough ahead to be given a victory, and that is totally up to opinion.
You can't spout stuff like that then qualify it with "but that is purely speculation". Either make an argument and back it up or don't make one.
Here's an example. Flash had very few units and a highly exposed base site which was vulnerable from 3 sides. To have any chance of holding onto it he must use his irradiates (if he had any which is dubious because he showed he had no energy just before) to somehow get the defilers before they get near him. This means that he could not use those same irradiates on the ultralisks. This means that he needed to use every last marine to hold onto that mineral only against ultralisks because otherwise he'd lose. Because of the above, Flash would not be attacking one of JaeDong's expansions. A player does not choose to trade a mining base each when he only had one and his opponent is taking a 5th. And that's not just speculation.
You see how it's done. Not only did I give my opinion but I also mentioned some facts that gave it weight. Now you try.
On January 24 2010 04:01 Sadistx wrote: If there's even the slightest chance that the outcome of the game is not clear, a regame should be granted, if both players agree, possibly on a different, but common map (that both players have played on before).
If one player had an advantage over the other in a game, and the game ends in a technical difficulty (it doesn't matter whose), a regame isn't actually screwing him over, because the goal is to get your opponent to gg legitimately. I'm pretty sure you don't get to claim a victory in any other sport or on Iccup by getting an advantage and then decide to leave and then petition to get the points for having "an advantage". How much is an "advantage" worth? Half a match point? 0.55? Do they round it down then? Who decides?
No sport that desires a modicum of respect and no true sportsman with any integrity will accept victory by committee through "advantage", because it's entirely subjective.
Advantage isn't entirely subjective. How did you get that idea? If at the start of the game I have 12 carriers and you have a burning command centre, 20 minerals and no scvs I have the advantage. That's not subjective. It just is. This wasn't just an advantage. Flash was on the verge of gging. Had he been eager to play on Fighting Spirit he'd have already gged.
On January 24 2010 04:01 Sadistx wrote: If there's even the slightest chance that the outcome of the game is not clear, a regame should be granted, if both players agree, possibly on a different, but common map (that both players have played on before).
If one player had an advantage over the other in a game, and the game ends in a technical difficulty (it doesn't matter whose), a regame isn't actually screwing him over, because the goal is to get your opponent to gg legitimately. I'm pretty sure you don't get to claim a victory in any other sport or on Iccup by getting an advantage and then decide to leave and then petition to get the points for having "an advantage". How much is an "advantage" worth? Half a match point? 0.55? Do they round it down then? Who decides?
No sport that desires a modicum of respect and no true sportsman with any integrity will accept victory by committee through "advantage", because it's entirely subjective.
Advantage isn't entirely subjective. How did you get that idea? If at the start of the game I have 12 carriers and you have a burning command centre, 20 minerals and no scvs I have the advantage. That's not subjective. It just is. This wasn't just an advantage. Flash was on the verge of gging. Had he been eager to play on Fighting Spirit he'd have already gged.
On January 24 2010 04:01 Sadistx wrote: If there's even the slightest chance that the outcome of the game is not clear, a regame should be granted, if both players agree, possibly on a different, but common map (that both players have played on before).
If one player had an advantage over the other in a game, and the game ends in a technical difficulty (it doesn't matter whose), a regame isn't actually screwing him over, because the goal is to get your opponent to gg legitimately. I'm pretty sure you don't get to claim a victory in any other sport or on Iccup by getting an advantage and then decide to leave and then petition to get the points for having "an advantage". How much is an "advantage" worth? Half a match point? 0.55? Do they round it down then? Who decides?
No sport that desires a modicum of respect and no true sportsman with any integrity will accept victory by committee through "advantage", because it's entirely subjective.
Your arguments are all over the place here.
"a regame isn't actually screwing him over, because the goal is to get your opponent to gg legitimately"... this makes absolutely no sense lol. Let's say you have a 95% chance of making your opponent "legitimately gg" and a blackout happens. Let's say there is a rule that grants automatic regames. Now you're back at the beginning and you only have a 50% chance of getting your opponent to "gg legitimately." This obviously screws you over!
"I'm pretty sure you don't get to claim a victory in any other sport or on Iccup by getting an advantage and then decide to leave" No one decided to leave! And there's a precedent for granting a win if an event ends and one side has the lead: in MLB, teams with the lead after 6 innings get the win if the game is rained out.
On January 24 2010 04:01 Sadistx wrote: If there's even the slightest chance that the outcome of the game is not clear, a regame should be granted, if both players agree, possibly on a different, but common map (that both players have played on before).
If one player had an advantage over the other in a game, and the game ends in a technical difficulty (it doesn't matter whose), a regame isn't actually screwing him over, because the goal is to get your opponent to gg legitimately. I'm pretty sure you don't get to claim a victory in any other sport or on Iccup by getting an advantage and then decide to leave and then petition to get the points for having "an advantage". How much is an "advantage" worth? Half a match point? 0.55? Do they round it down then? Who decides?
No sport that desires a modicum of respect and no true sportsman with any integrity will accept victory by committee through "advantage", because it's entirely subjective.
Advantage isn't entirely subjective. How did you get that idea? If at the start of the game I have 12 carriers and you have a burning command centre, 20 minerals and no scvs I have the advantage. That's not subjective. It just is. This wasn't just an advantage. Flash was on the verge of gging. Had he been eager to play on Fighting Spirit he'd have already gged.
Read my first sentence. Again and again.
There is not the slightest chance that the outcome of the game was not clear. The subjective defence is a defence grounded in human ignorance. It's based around the false premise that all humans are of equal judgement, therefore all opinions that a human will support are of equal merit. This is not true, many humans are idiots and their subjective opinions should be discounted. This is one of those cases.
I remember the July vs Bisu game where July was about to take down the gateway a second before DTs came out. Even if the DTs came out, Bisu would stil probably be screwed. They gave the game to July.
On January 24 2010 03:30 Xxio wrote: You failed to mention several things, like the fact that both those ultras were practically dead, a new wave of medic marine was coming from Flash's base, there were no drones at JD's 3rd, his natural had maybe not even 1 drone per mineral patch, JD got his 1st and 2nd gas around the same time as Flash so if Flash was about to run out, so was JD
"What Jaedong accomplished against Flash cements him as the greatest player of all time" Yeah, getting that free win and then a 4th game that was a joke is really something. At least hide your bias when your writing something like this.
You're so wrong. As many have said, Flash was on the retreat.
JD was about to establish top right as well. That would have been his 6th gas.
JD's 3:00 was well saturated. Watch the mini-map in the game more closely. Flash attacks JD's top right at 14:00 on the VOD, at 14:07 JD's whole drone line escapes south (8-10 drones). When Flash hits JD's base at 3:00, the drones are nowhere to be seen either. They were safely out of range. JD proceeds to slaughter Flash's whole army and (presumably) transfer those drones directly to his 3:00. That was about 4.5 minutes before the disconnect; saying the base was in anything but full-production mode is crazy.
Flash did a legitimate strat in game 4, and JD read him like a book. If Flash cracked under the pressure, it's his fault. Reading JD's interview, it's obvious that he worked hard to remain mentally strong going into game 4.
JD deserved the win and the title easy. He was the pacesetter in all 4 games. His preparation and execution was simply unreal.
he didn't just have an "advantage," he all but won the game. but dont take my word for it, who am I? just ask any of the top players. but oh wait idra/ret already said this...
I hope in the near future we can forget all this drama crap and focus on the great games the series provided us.
We should be talking about Flash's BEAUTIFUL counter in game 2. He had one chance to win that game, one timing, and he found it. He didn't overreact to the guardians and only makes a few wraiths so he can make the drop ships and vessels he needs. Then he elevators his troops in and gives a marine micro clinic to take the game.
We should also be talking about Jaedong's phenomenal BoX play. Defying the odds he takes a convincing win in Game1 with brute determination and shows incredible resilience to hold out in game3 til his upgrade and tech advantage kick in to take the game. Then in Game4 he reads Flash's playbook perfectly and predicts the 8rax deflecting it with ease.
On January 24 2010 03:54 Xxio wrote: If you look at Flash's base on the mini map you can see many yellow dots (medic marine) being produced and moving from his main base to a rally point. On one of the last frames you can see one of these dots in the stream out below the yellow-blob that is Flash's natural. They weren't scvs because he'd already sent them.
Jaedong had 3 geysers (not counting natural, main), 2 extractors as far as we know, and was mining from 1 of them. Jaedong was far ahead, however I don't think he could have held on to all the geysers but that is purely speculation. What this really comes down to is whether Jaedong was far enough ahead to be given a victory, and that is totally up to opinion.
You can't spout stuff like that then qualify it with "but that is purely speculation". Either make an argument and back it up or don't make one.
Here's an example. Flash had very few units and a highly exposed base site which was vulnerable from 3 sides. To have any chance of holding onto it he must use his irradiates (if he had any which is dubious because he showed he had no energy just before) to somehow get the defilers before they get near him. This means that he could not use those same irradiates on the ultralisks. This means that he needed to use every last marine to hold onto that mineral only against ultralisks because otherwise he'd lose. Because of the above, Flash would not be attacking one of JaeDong's expansions. A player does not choose to trade a mining base each when he only had one and his opponent is taking a 5th. And that's not just speculation.
You see how it's done. Not only did I give my opinion but I also mentioned some facts that gave it weight. Now you try.
Hold it against what? 3 ultralisk, 2 pracitcally dead and some lings? ohh, or are you speculating that suddenly a control group of gas units would appear? When I make a post at least I point out which parts are opinionated.
I like how confidently you assume what Flash would have done. You're so cute!
btw, no, I wasn't presenting an argument, I was pointing out a number of things that happened during the match that people seem to always overlook or miss entirely. But good job, gotta keep that e-peen up right?
Jaedong really showed in this series that while Flash might become the best player of all time in the future Jaedong HIMSELF is the greatest player RIGHT NOW.
I don't think the judging to give JD the win was fair. If StarCraft was a game governed by time and there was PHYSICALLY NO CHANCE for Flash to win (a la a basketball game; the losing team is trailing by say 30 points and theres a minute left on the clock) it would be alright to make such a judgment. As it stands now, the situation is analogous to a tennis match wherein player A is up two sets to love to player B and player A is automatically awarded the win.
No matter the argument, I can't help this tainted the overall series. Game 4 was a concede by flash by just doing a short build to end the series quickly, it was apparent he wasn't giving it his all. If starcraft wants to be taken seriously, shit like this can't happen. Considering the overall bad looks that the MSL has been giving, this is really hurting their reputation.
On January 24 2010 04:18 Zelniq wrote: what is this "advantage" nonsense
he didn't just have an "advantage," he all but won the game. but dont take my word for it, who am I? just ask any of the top players. but oh wait idra/ret already said this...
but oh wait, idra already said that you DON'T just give the game over to one player or the other
On January 24 2010 03:54 Xxio wrote: If you look at Flash's base on the mini map you can see many yellow dots (medic marine) being produced and moving from his main base to a rally point. On one of the last frames you can see one of these dots in the stream out below the yellow-blob that is Flash's natural. They weren't scvs because he'd already sent them.
Jaedong had 3 geysers (not counting natural, main), 2 extractors as far as we know, and was mining from 1 of them. Jaedong was far ahead, however I don't think he could have held on to all the geysers but that is purely speculation. What this really comes down to is whether Jaedong was far enough ahead to be given a victory, and that is totally up to opinion.
You can't spout stuff like that then qualify it with "but that is purely speculation". Either make an argument and back it up or don't make one.
Here's an example. Flash had very few units and a highly exposed base site which was vulnerable from 3 sides. To have any chance of holding onto it he must use his irradiates (if he had any which is dubious because he showed he had no energy just before) to somehow get the defilers before they get near him. This means that he could not use those same irradiates on the ultralisks. This means that he needed to use every last marine to hold onto that mineral only against ultralisks because otherwise he'd lose. Because of the above, Flash would not be attacking one of JaeDong's expansions. A player does not choose to trade a mining base each when he only had one and his opponent is taking a 5th. And that's not just speculation.
You see how it's done. Not only did I give my opinion but I also mentioned some facts that gave it weight. Now you try.
Hold it against what? 3 ultralisk, 2 pracitcally dead and some lings? ohh, or are you speculating that suddenly a control group of gas units would appear? When I make a post at least I point out which parts are opinionated.
I like how confidently you assume what Flash would have done. You're so cute!
btw, no, I wasn't presenting an argument, I was pointing out a number of things that happened during the match that people seem to always overlook or miss entirely. But good job, gotta keep that e-peen up right?
fuck this, i'm done.
Have fun playing those D level iccup games you play. Unless you've played at much higher levels, I don't expect you to understand the game dynamics.
Or watch the vod again. You'll see Jaedong streaming constant units to his 7 expo. Watch the mini map.
From every single expo you could see units being sent constantly to 7. Even his 3rd.
On January 24 2010 03:54 Xxio wrote: If you look at Flash's base on the mini map you can see many yellow dots (medic marine) being produced and moving from his main base to a rally point. On one of the last frames you can see one of these dots in the stream out below the yellow-blob that is Flash's natural. They weren't scvs because he'd already sent them.
Jaedong had 3 geysers (not counting natural, main), 2 extractors as far as we know, and was mining from 1 of them. Jaedong was far ahead, however I don't think he could have held on to all the geysers but that is purely speculation. What this really comes down to is whether Jaedong was far enough ahead to be given a victory, and that is totally up to opinion.
You can't spout stuff like that then qualify it with "but that is purely speculation". Either make an argument and back it up or don't make one.
Here's an example. Flash had very few units and a highly exposed base site which was vulnerable from 3 sides. To have any chance of holding onto it he must use his irradiates (if he had any which is dubious because he showed he had no energy just before) to somehow get the defilers before they get near him. This means that he could not use those same irradiates on the ultralisks. This means that he needed to use every last marine to hold onto that mineral only against ultralisks because otherwise he'd lose. Because of the above, Flash would not be attacking one of JaeDong's expansions. A player does not choose to trade a mining base each when he only had one and his opponent is taking a 5th. And that's not just speculation.
You see how it's done. Not only did I give my opinion but I also mentioned some facts that gave it weight. Now you try.
Hold it against what? 3 ultralisk, 2 pracitcally dead and some lings? ohh, or are you speculating that suddenly a control group of gas units would appear? When I make a post at least I point out which parts are opinionated.
I like how confidently you assume what Flash would have done. You're so cute!
btw, no, I wasn't presenting an argument, I was pointing out a number of things that happened during the match that people seem to always overlook or miss entirely. But good job, gotta keep that e-peen up right?
fuck this, i'm done.
3 ultralisks and 2 defilers were actually enough to win it so yeah, lol. Do you realise how many marine hits an ultralisk can take. They have 400hp. That's 100 marine hits with their armour. Assuming there is no swarm.
You're right you weren't presenting an argument. That was my problem with it. You were bullshitting about things in a tone which could be mistaken for a credible argument by a casual observer. And not only on things that happened but also on things that didn't happen and couldn't have happened. These things should be pointed out, both so impressionable people don't reach the incorrect conclusions and to improve the posting quality of the people doing it.
What is really sad that the opportunity to saw a great ending to one of the best games I've ever seen has been taken away from us. The discussion should focus on MBC hate and not on the decision to give JD the win. No matter what, Jaedong deserves the title and Flash is a great player. That's about it, and now bring on the MBC hate.
On January 24 2010 04:20 Xxio wrote: Hold it against what? 3 ultralisk, 2 pracitcally dead and some lings? ohh, or are you speculating that suddenly a control group of gas units would appear?
Actually, the whole point of this OP was to show just this. JD had a massive resource advantage. He could have had that control group of Ultras in under two minutes.
The series was unrecoverable from the moment the power outage happened. Yes Jaedong was ahead, yes it was the right decision, but it doesn't change the fact that anyone who's ever watched a game of Starcraft knows that Flash wasn't trying in game four. Honestly, this isn't Kespa's fault either, since MBC put them in the position where they had to make this decision.
The "it's all on Flash" excuse is utterly disingenous, though. Yes, we prize mental fortitude in progamers, but that's on the assumption that they are facing equal mental hurdles in the series. Not only was this uneven, but having your coach and team rage and walk out, and to see your father so angry that he needs to be restrained - tell me how this is within the realm of reasonable things to expect a player to deal with. There is a line, and in my opinion, the hour-long drama following the Kespa decision crossed it.
It's not Kespa's fault for the decision, nor is it unreasonable that Flash's dad freaked out. Basically, I have sympathy for everyone in this situation except MBC.
On January 24 2010 04:36 epi wrote: The series was unrecoverable from the moment the power outage happened. Yes Jaedong was ahead, yes it was the right decision, but it doesn't change the fact that anyone who's ever watched a game of Starcraft knows that Flash wasn't trying in game four.
I think he looked so shaken because in the deciding match of the bo5 he went 8 rax vs 9 pool.
On January 24 2010 04:01 KristianJS wrote: I don't know why the main focus of discussion is on whether or not Jaedong should have been given the game. It was pretty clear that giving him the point was at least as fair as replaying (it'd be making JD throw away his considerable advantage or robbing Flash of a small chance at a comeback).
The real issue is how Kespa (or whoever) actually allowed Flash's dad and coaches to turn it into a 1 hour shitstorm. It's completely unprofessional. The ref's decision in such a situation should be final and it's unheard of to allow someone's parents or coaches come and delay things for a whole hour.
Not only did it ruin things for the audience, it ruined it for Flash. The longer they were allowed to complain the harder it was gonna be for Flash to just brush it away for the next game. As things went, it was pretty obvious how it affected Flash.
Repeating this for new page...the situation was not dealt with well. It was handled dreadfully.
I don't know what's the big "habuloo" about Jaedong's build. It was 3 hatch before pool, same as game 2. Flash knew it was coming, regardless of how well Jaedong planned it. He got the +1 weapons into 4rax aggression, knowing that jaedong will want to skip lurkers with that build. Game one and two are extremely similar, the main difference is the mid to lategame transition, but at that point, both players are trying to adapt and counter the others' decision. Had in game 2 jaedong decide not to go guardians, flash would've gone straight into SK terran as in game 3.
So the "secret build" is pretty much a moot point.
On January 24 2010 04:40 dyos wrote: I don't know what's the big "habuloo" about Jaedong's build. It was 3 hatch before pool, same as game 2. Flash knew it was coming, regardless of how well Jaedong planned it. He got the +1 weapons into 4rax aggression, knowing that jaedong will want to skip lurkers with that build. Game one and two are extremely similar, the main difference is the mid to lategame transition, but at that point, both players are trying to adapt and counter the others' decision. Had in game 2 jaedong decide not to go guardians, flash would've gone straight into SK terran as in game 3.
So the "secret build" is pretty much a moot point.
you do know that 8rax against three hatch before pool is instant win for terran?
Jaedong pulled exactly that build against Flash. The same Flash who pulled 8rax in almost half of his last 10 TvZ games.
Show me another gamer who would have the same balls in a finals.
I just want to add, that game 4 was not flash giving up (lol). He didn't 7rax to concede, he did it because IT WORKS. He did it because jaedong abused the hell out of his 1raxCC build with 3 hat pool repeatedly(literally back to back) and then on the most macro intensive map (also the only 4 player map) jaedong opened with an overpool -> 11 hat -> into 3 hat muta play.
Here is the deal. At the level they are playing on if jaedong opens overpool and flash 1 rax cc's, jaedong will 100% never get a third gas up because of late muta, latespeedlings and late third, late carpace,lurker aspect, hive ect, the implications of that build order advantage would have flash dominting jaedong like the last time they play on FS, knowing this flash knows his 7rax is a lethal way to gain a large advantage since jaedong is forced to 12hat on this map against his powerfull 1raxcc,. Jaedong sense this and choose a build that would most likely lose to flashes strongest build , 1raxcc but beat his most likely build 7,8rax.
I wish the power hadn't gone off so jaedong could have spent another 2 minutes to win that game and then win set four (which would have played out the same way ).
Jaedong showed incredible build order courage and preparation in every game. Nada was right, flash didn't get to prepare enough just for jaedong this finals while jaedong got to only prepare for flash, that advantage was too great for him flas h to overcome!
On January 24 2010 04:58 AttackZerg wrote: I just want to add, that game 4 was not flash giving up (lol). He didn't 7rax to concede, he did it because IT WORKS. He did it because jaedong abused the hell out of his 1raxCC build with 3 hat pool repeatedly(literally back to back) and then on the most macro intensive map (also the only 4 player map) jaedong opened with an overpool -> 11 hat -> into 3 hat muta play.
Here is the deal. At the level they are playing on if jaedong opens overpool and flash 1 rax cc's, jaedong will 100% never get a third gas up because of late muta, latespeedlings and late third, late carpace,lurker aspect, hive ect, the implications of that build order advantage would have flash dominting jaedong like the last time they play on FS, knowing this flash knows his 7rax is a lethal way to gain a large advantage since jaedong is forced to 12hat on this map against his powerfull 1raxcc,. Jaedong sense this and choose a build that would most likely lose to flashes strongest build , 1raxcc but beat his most likely build 7,8rax.
I wish the power hadn't gone off so jaedong could have spent another 2 minutes to win that game and then win set four (which would have played out the same way ).
Jaedong showed incredible build order courage and preparation in every game. Nada was right, flash didn't get to prepare enough just for jaedong this finals while jaedong got to only prepare for flash, that advantage was too great for him flas h to overcome!
Flash and JD had the same preparation time barring Flash's 2 PL games, which were TvZ anyways so it didnt really matter. JD did destroy Flash strategically all 4 sets though and got way ahead in the mind games, which is insane considering the mind games Flash has been playing vs JD using his series vs Kwanro + his games vs hero/calm where he used aggressive all in builds to mind fuck JD in the finals making him pool first. It was truly incredible to see JD predict Flash like a open book like that, and I dont think thats getting enough attention here. This is the best Bo5 player to ever play the game, both strategically and mentally.
Jaedong was at an advantage but it was NOT overwhelming WTF
flash had just pulled scv to his new 3rd base, his upgrades were complete and even if he had to pull back his mnm from jaedong's double gas there was still game left to be played.
The situation is just shitty in the general. Yes, Jaedong had a great advantage. Yes, Jaedong might've won that game. But holy shit, did it psychologically fuck Flash up. Anybody watching Game 4 could see that Flash wasn't himself. Letting a ling runby to see his 2 rax acad build?
I would be psychologically fucked too if my raging father was forced to leave the stadium, if my ENTIRE team walked out, etc. I'm not disagreeing that the decision was right, but to say Jaedong FAIRLY beat Flash in a bo5, and that Flash was mentally on even grounds with Jaedong after that incident occurred, is completely wrong.
On January 24 2010 05:19 .risingdragoon wrote: Jaedong was at an advantage but it was NOT overwhelming WTF
flash had just pulled scv to his new 3rd base, his upgrades were complete and even if he had to pull back his mnm from jaedong's double gas there was still game left to be played.
MSL's fuckup is LEGENDARY here.
What would you have Flash do here? He has one control group of mnm. He has one base (with 6 mineral crystals and no gas). He has 4 vessels with no energy. JD has 4 mining bases, 5 mining gases and a 5th base with a 6th gas coming. If Flash tries to attack any of those bases with his tiny army he loses his only mining expansion (as well as his army probably). If Flash camps then he's camping with pure mnm against 6 gas ultralisk. You can camp TvZ with upgraded tanks and a decent base when you take your 3rd early. You cannot camp with only mnm against ultras with swarm, especially when the zerg has a much greater gas income than you have mineral income.
Not a single good Starcraft player has said anything but that Jaedong was way ahead in set 3. Kwark, Idra, and Ret have all weighed in, and their opinions are unanimous that Jaedong enjoyed a huge advantage.
Simply put: if you're arguing against that, you're wrong. The evidence is there. The authorities all take one view of the issue. It's insanely egotistical to disagree with a united front of people who are so much more qualified to understand the question.
Opinions on what rules ought to look like may vary, but that's a separate question. As it stands, the rules specify that a game's winner can be determined by decision under certain circumstances. These are those circumstances: every qualified person is in agreement that Jaedong was way ahead.
Obviously no one wants to see a game decided by referees rather than players, but if a decision has to be made - one way or the other - it's definitely a good thing that every qualified person is in agreement that things shook out the way they were supposed to.
It's unnecessary and uncharitable controversy to dispute Jaedong's win in the third game and to discredit him as the rightful winner of the series. Fan allegiances are fun and have their place, but when they lead you to make biased claims that discredit someone who has worked as hard as Jaedong has, then your allegiances should be put aside.
By the way, if you are one of the multitude of people who weighed in "LOL JD's build is so bad" or "ROFL give the game away JD ROFL" when JD lost the top right base (just before he sandwiched and raped flash's army) you are probably not qualified to comment on the probable outcome of game 3
On January 24 2010 05:19 .risingdragoon wrote: Jaedong was at an advantage but it was NOT overwhelming WTF
flash had just pulled scv to his new 3rd base, his upgrades were complete and even if he had to pull back his mnm from jaedong's double gas there was still game left to be played.
MSL's fuckup is LEGENDARY here.
What would you have Flash do here? He has one control group of mnm. He has one base (with 6 mineral crystals and no gas). He has 4 vessels with no energy. JD has 4 mining bases, 5 mining gases and a 5th base with a 6th gas coming. If Flash tries to attack any of those bases with his tiny army he loses his only mining expansion (as well as his army probably). If Flash camps then he's camping with pure mnm against 6 gas ultralisk. You can camp TvZ with upgraded tanks and a decent base when you take your 3rd early. You cannot camp with only mnm against ultras with swarm, especially when the zerg has a much greater gas income than you have mineral income.
Jaedong had the 3 base at his lower right and the double gas at lower left, that's 4 base. NOT 5 base or 6 gas.
Everybody wanted to watch the game played out. MSL fucked up and Flash had to give?
Regame's tough. Extend the BO5 to a BO7 then. This is BULLSHIT.
On January 24 2010 05:28 LucasWoJ wrote: Jaedong did fairly beat Flash in a BO5...
EDIT: That was in response to Seraphim.
Wow, great response. Care to actually validate your claim?
What does he have to validate, Jaedong beat Flash 3-1. "Fairly" is just a subjective word. I don't like how the 3rd game ended as it sparked so much controversy, but the games went how they did and Jaedong won the series. That's that.
On January 24 2010 05:19 .risingdragoon wrote: Jaedong was at an advantage but it was NOT overwhelming WTF
flash had just pulled scv to his new 3rd base, his upgrades were complete and even if he had to pull back his mnm from jaedong's double gas there was still game left to be played.
MSL's fuckup is LEGENDARY here.
What would you have Flash do here? He has one control group of mnm. He has one base (with 6 mineral crystals and no gas). He has 4 vessels with no energy. JD has 4 mining bases, 5 mining gases and a 5th base with a 6th gas coming. If Flash tries to attack any of those bases with his tiny army he loses his only mining expansion (as well as his army probably). If Flash camps then he's camping with pure mnm against 6 gas ultralisk. You can camp TvZ with upgraded tanks and a decent base when you take your 3rd early. You cannot camp with only mnm against ultras with swarm, especially when the zerg has a much greater gas income than you have mineral income.
Jaedong had the 3 base at his lower right and the double gas at lower left, that's 4 base. NOT 5 base or 6 gas.
Everybody wanted to watch the game played out. MSL fucked up and Flash had to give?
Regame's tough. Extend the BO5 to a BO7 then. This is BULLSHIT.
1.) Main 2.) Nat 3.) 3 o'clock 4.) Double Gas at 7 5.) Upper right (bolded in Kwark's original post)
The fifth was building, yes, but doesn't change the fact that if Flash retreated to his base that the fifth base (with the sixth gas) would've finished and Jaedong would take advantage of that (if he actually felt the need to, he could've just swarmed Flash's min-only if he so chose at that point).
On January 24 2010 05:28 LucasWoJ wrote: Jaedong did fairly beat Flash in a BO5...
EDIT: That was in response to Seraphim.
Wow, great response. Care to actually validate your claim?
What does he have to validate, Jaedong beat Flash 3-1. "Fairly" is just a subjective word. I don't like how the 3rd game ended as it sparked so much controversy, but the games went how they did and Jaedong won the series. That's that.
Yes, the score was 3:1, where Jaedong won 3 games of Starcraft while Flash won 1, but how can you say it was remotely fair for Flash (with the reasons I mentioned in my original post). If the situation didn't happen, for all we know, Flash could've won game 4 and go on to win game 5. To completely dismiss the psychological impact that situation had on Flash is completely ignorant.
On January 24 2010 05:19 .risingdragoon wrote: Jaedong was at an advantage but it was NOT overwhelming WTF
flash had just pulled scv to his new 3rd base, his upgrades were complete and even if he had to pull back his mnm from jaedong's double gas there was still game left to be played.
MSL's fuckup is LEGENDARY here.
What would you have Flash do here? He has one control group of mnm. He has one base (with 6 mineral crystals and no gas). He has 4 vessels with no energy. JD has 4 mining bases, 5 mining gases and a 5th base with a 6th gas coming. If Flash tries to attack any of those bases with his tiny army he loses his only mining expansion (as well as his army probably). If Flash camps then he's camping with pure mnm against 6 gas ultralisk. You can camp TvZ with upgraded tanks and a decent base when you take your 3rd early. You cannot camp with only mnm against ultras with swarm, especially when the zerg has a much greater gas income than you have mineral income.
Jaedong had the 3 base at his lower right and the double gas at lower left, that's 4 base. NOT 5 base or 6 gas.
Everybody wanted to watch the game played out. MSL fucked up and Flash had to give?
Regame's tough. Extend the BO5 to a BO7 then. This is BULLSHIT.
Take a look at 1 at the end of the vod. Tell me what you see there.
Also I like how the key bit you're trying to claim is that JaeDong was only ahead 4 bases to 1, not 5. Things are pretty desperate when the positive spin you're trying to claim is that he was only 4 bases to 1 down.
Uh, he took the base on the top right again right before the power outage happened. With Jaedong whittling down Flash's marine army down to a very small size, there was no way in hell Flash could have possibly shut it down at the situation he was in. Even if Flash shut down Jaedong's bottom left somehow, Jaedong would still have had 4base 4gas (his main being almost mined out, same with gas) against Flash's 3base 2gas (one base completely mined out, his second base almost mined out). But Flash was not going to be able to shut down Jaedong's bottom left, so it would have been 4base 5gas vs 3base, and taking out mined out bases and almost mined out bases, conservatively it would have been 3base 4gas vs 1base 1gas immediately after the blackout. A few minutes later it would have been 4base 5gas vs 1base 1gas.
On January 24 2010 05:42 koreasilver wrote: Uh, he took the base on the top right again right before the power outage happened. With Jaedong whittling down Flash's marine army down to a very small size, there was no way in hell Flash could have possibly shut it down at the situation he was in. Even if Flash shut down Jaedong's bottom left somehow, Jaedong would still have had 4base 4gas (his main being almost mined out, same with gas) against Flash's 3base 2gas (one base completely mined out, his second base almost mined out). But Flash was not going to be able to shut down Jaedong's bottom left, so it would have been 4base 5gas vs 3base, and taking out mined out bases and almost mined out bases, conservatively it would have been 3base 4gas vs 1base 1gas immediately after the blackout. A few minutes later it would have been 4base 5gas vs 1base 1gas.
How are you supposed to win in that situation.
Plus Flash's gas was going to burn out right after JD's.
On January 24 2010 04:58 AttackZerg wrote: I just want to add, that game 4 was not flash giving up (lol). He didn't 7rax to concede, he did it because IT WORKS. He did it because jaedong abused the hell out of his 1raxCC build with 3 hat pool repeatedly(literally back to back) and then on the most macro intensive map (also the only 4 player map) jaedong opened with an overpool -> 11 hat -> into 3 hat muta play.
Here is the deal. At the level they are playing on if jaedong opens overpool and flash 1 rax cc's, jaedong will 100% never get a third gas up because of late muta, latespeedlings and late third, late carpace,lurker aspect, hive ect, the implications of that build order advantage would have flash dominting jaedong like the last time they play on FS, knowing this flash knows his 7rax is a lethal way to gain a large advantage since jaedong is forced to 12hat on this map against his powerfull 1raxcc,. Jaedong sense this and choose a build that would most likely lose to flashes strongest build , 1raxcc but beat his most likely build 7,8rax.
I wish the power hadn't gone off so jaedong could have spent another 2 minutes to win that game and then win set four (which would have played out the same way ).
Jaedong showed incredible build order courage and preparation in every game. Nada was right, flash didn't get to prepare enough just for jaedong this finals while jaedong got to only prepare for flash, that advantage was too great for him flas h to overcome!
Flash and JD had the same preparation time barring Flash's 2 PL games, which were TvZ anyways so it didnt really matter. JD did destroy Flash strategically all 4 sets though and got way ahead in the mind games, which is insane considering the mind games Flash has been playing vs JD using his series vs Kwanro + his games vs hero/calm where he used aggressive all in builds to mind fuck JD in the finals making him pool first. It was truly incredible to see JD predict Flash like a open book like that, and I dont think thats getting enough attention here. This is the best Bo5 player to ever play the game, both strategically and mentally.
They did not have even close to similar practice times.
Jaedong wasn't on his proleague roster, didn't have to prepare for a TvZ vs kwanro semis And a TvP finals vs movie on protoss favored maps. On top of that he had to prepare and win two proleague games with the mindset that 'jaedong will be watching my every move'
I believe jaedong had a full extra week to work on this series over flash.
On January 24 2010 05:47 .risingdragoon wrote: Yeah well, decision to hand it to jaedong killed flash in game 4
if it's regame it might kill jaedong
so you tell me what's fair when the fuckup's at mbc
I didn't realise we were awarding results based upon protecting players' fragile mental states. You should tell that to them next time a player goes 2-0 up in a bo5. That's totally unfair on the guy 0-2 down, it puts him under sick pressure to perform and often makes him choke. They should make it 1-1 to be fairer.
Also players know that stuff is in Kespa's hands. They should be ready to deal with it, in the same way footballers don't argue with the ref over a yellow card, even when they disagree with it. What I suspect was way worse for Flash's mental state was his father and coach going batshit insane (especially given I suspect Flash knew the game was over). That hour of being messed around and arguing and having his father dragged off and his coach threaten to forfeit him must have been hellish.
If you want to blame someone for Flash's mental state in game 4 then blame his coach and father.
On January 24 2010 05:47 .risingdragoon wrote: Yeah well, decision to hand it to jaedong killed flash in game 4
if it's regame it might kill jaedong
so you tell me what's fair when the fuckup's at mbc
I didn't realise we were awarding results based upon protecting players' fragile mental states. You should tell that to them next time a player goes 2-0 up in a bo5. That's totally unfair on the guy 0-2 down, it puts him under sick pressure to perform and often makes him choke. They should make it 1-1 to be fairer.
Don't you patronize me.
BO5 is all about mental state, it was 1-1 and losing fair and square means the control of games is in your own hand.
JD is a monster, definitely the best player of all the time, not only by his skills, but he also got the feeling and lucky, going 3 hatch pool and 9 pool in the exactly moments. lol
Flash seemed tired, even before the match and imo he didn't play at his best, seemed tired phisically and psycologically... and JD was sooo focused to win, if they had to play 300 more games, JD would have won 99% of them.
On January 24 2010 05:47 .risingdragoon wrote: Yeah well, decision to hand it to jaedong killed flash in game 4
if it's regame it might kill jaedong
so you tell me what's fair when the fuckup's at mbc
Flash prepared a 7rax for set four. He didn't decide on it then. Jaedong abused flashes build in the two previous games on terran favored maps. Do you realize how easy jaedong would have won on FS if he got away with another 3 hat pool-> muta/ling with fast +1 carp into hive? .... that map would be heaven for jaedong compare to how effective his abuse was the two previous games on maps that are HORRIBLE midgame and lategame zvt.
Jaedong took away flashes opening options in this series, flash was going 7rax in set 4 regardless.
Game 1 JD 12pool/11gas Game 2 3 hat before pool, fake 3 hat muta into double island expo + double evo gaurdian/ultra rush. Game 3 3 hat before pool -> 3 hat muta/ling with +1carp into fast ultra. Game 4 overpool -> 3 hat mutalisk-> standard zvt.
Jaedongs strategic gameplan for the series made it hard for flash to abuse his aggressive versus greedy styles that he variates on zergs so well.
I still think mechanically flash is the best player in the world but jaedongs prep put him miles ahead of flash mentally. Flash showed us nothing new this series which for him and his talents just doesn't make sense.
If you didn't know who was playing in all four games it could have been hwasin,sea or flash. There was not really any of the crisp flash we've seen lately.
Correct analysis. Also just throwing it in, Jaedong was at 5-2 with 5-3 almost done assuming he was upgrading constantly. Flash was at 2-2 with no money or gas to upgrade further.
On January 24 2010 06:01 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Correct analysis. Also just throwing it in, Jaedong was at 5-2 with 5-3 almost done assuming he was upgrading constantly. Flash was at 2-2 with no money or gas to upgrade further.
If flash was at 2/2 he would have already died.
He got his 2/2 when he took out top right. That is why jds 4/1 ultras were suddenly less effective.
On January 24 2010 05:47 .risingdragoon wrote: Yeah well, decision to hand it to jaedong killed flash in game 4
if it's regame it might kill jaedong
so you tell me what's fair when the fuckup's at mbc
I didn't realise we were awarding results based upon protecting players' fragile mental states. You should tell that to them next time a player goes 2-0 up in a bo5. That's totally unfair on the guy 0-2 down, it puts him under sick pressure to perform and often makes him choke. They should make it 1-1 to be fairer.
Don't you patronize me.
BO5 is all about mental state, it was 1-1 and losing fair and square means the control of games is in your own hand.
MSL Fucked Up Beyond All Recognition on this one.
If you're going to use stupid arguments like how decisions affect a players mental state then I'm going to logically expand them to show you how stupid they are. If you don't like it then don't use them. It's not my fault that you seem to think the job of Kespa in this situation is to worry about how it might effect game 4 if they give JD the win, rather than to accurately assess who won game 3. In my opinion who won game 3 should be detirmined mainly by factors such as what happened in game 3. Like the fact JaeDong won it. That's the kind of stuff I think is important. But you seem to think they should worry about Flash's mental state going into game 4 when making that decision. So I'm going to go ahead and mock it and if that means you feel patronised then as far as I can see it just illustrates why your point was rather stupid.
On January 24 2010 05:47 .risingdragoon wrote: Yeah well, decision to hand it to jaedong killed flash in game 4
if it's regame it might kill jaedong
so you tell me what's fair when the fuckup's at mbc
Flash prepared a 7rax for set four. He didn't decide on it then. Jaedong abused flashes build in the two previous games on terran favored maps. Do you realize how easy jaedong would have won on FS if he got away with another 3 hat pool-> muta/ling with fast +1 carp into hive? .... that map would be heaven for jaedong compare to how effective his abuse was the two previous games on maps that are HORRIBLE midgame and lategame zvt.
Jaedong took away flashes opening options in this series, flash was going 7rax in set 4 regardless.
Game 1 JD 12pool/11gas Game 2 3 hat before pool, fake 3 hat muta into double island expo + double evo gaurdian/ultra rush. Game 3 3 hat before pool -> 3 hat muta/ling with +1carp into fast ultra. Game 4 overpool -> 3 hat mutalisk-> standard zvt.
Jaedongs strategic gameplan for the series made it hard for flash to abuse his aggressive versus greedy styles that he variates on zergs so well.
I still think mechanically flash is the best player in the world but jaedongs prep put him miles ahead of flash mentally. Flash showed us nothing new this series which for him and his talents just doesn't make sense.
If you didn't know who was playing in all four games it could have been hwasin,sea or flash. There was not really any of the crisp flash we've seen lately.
actually flash played very hwasin in game 2 and 3. fast ebay for +1 attack
On January 24 2010 06:09 domane wrote: But in this controversy, should MBC care about map statistics?
They were official picks for NATE MSL 2009. I wonder if it should matter if the maps are fair or not.
Even if statistics don't come into play, there's the matter that Jaedong prepared a VERY specific strategy for the map that wold be completely obliterated in a regame.
On January 24 2010 05:47 .risingdragoon wrote: Yeah well, decision to hand it to jaedong killed flash in game 4
if it's regame it might kill jaedong
so you tell me what's fair when the fuckup's at mbc
I didn't realise we were awarding results based upon protecting players' fragile mental states. You should tell that to them next time a player goes 2-0 up in a bo5. That's totally unfair on the guy 0-2 down, it puts him under sick pressure to perform and often makes him choke. They should make it 1-1 to be fairer.
Don't you patronize me.
BO5 is all about mental state, it was 1-1 and losing fair and square means the control of games is in your own hand.
MSL Fucked Up Beyond All Recognition on this one.
If you're going to use stupid arguments like how decisions affect a players mental state then I'm going to logically expand them to show you how stupid they are. If you don't like it then don't use them. It's not my fault that you seem to think the job of Kespa in this situation is to worry about how it might effect game 4 if they give JD the win, rather than to accurately assess who won game 3. In my opinion who won game 3 should be detirmined mainly by factors such as what happened in game 3. Like the fact JaeDong won it. That's the kind of stuff I think is important. But you seem to think they should worry about Flash's mental state going into game 4 when making that decision. So I'm going to go ahead and mock it and if that means you feel patronised then as far as I can see it just illustrates why your point was rather stupid.
Yeah, and your point somehow makes a normal gg win/loss the same as a power overload, as if MBC didn't have a hand in it.
On January 24 2010 05:47 .risingdragoon wrote: Yeah well, decision to hand it to jaedong killed flash in game 4
if it's regame it might kill jaedong
so you tell me what's fair when the fuckup's at mbc
Flash prepared a 7rax for set four. He didn't decide on it then. Jaedong abused flashes build in the two previous games on terran favored maps. Do you realize how easy jaedong would have won on FS if he got away with another 3 hat pool-> muta/ling with fast +1 carp into hive? .... that map would be heaven for jaedong compare to how effective his abuse was the two previous games on maps that are HORRIBLE midgame and lategame zvt.
Jaedong took away flashes opening options in this series, flash was going 7rax in set 4 regardless.
Game 1 JD 12pool/11gas Game 2 3 hat before pool, fake 3 hat muta into double island expo + double evo gaurdian/ultra rush. Game 3 3 hat before pool -> 3 hat muta/ling with +1carp into fast ultra. Game 4 overpool -> 3 hat mutalisk-> standard zvt.
Jaedongs strategic gameplan for the series made it hard for flash to abuse his aggressive versus greedy styles that he variates on zergs so well.
I still think mechanically flash is the best player in the world but jaedongs prep put him miles ahead of flash mentally. Flash showed us nothing new this series which for him and his talents just doesn't make sense.
If you didn't know who was playing in all four games it could have been hwasin,sea or flash. There was not really any of the crisp flash we've seen lately.
actually flash played very hwasin in game 2 and 3. fast ebay for +1 attack
Which is sad, because coming to the msl finals with nothing new is really dumb.
"PSSSSSSSSSS watch vods of any terran , imagine another 10-15 marines in every group and you've solved me"
On January 24 2010 05:47 .risingdragoon wrote: Yeah well, decision to hand it to jaedong killed flash in game 4
if it's regame it might kill jaedong
so you tell me what's fair when the fuckup's at mbc
I didn't realise we were awarding results based upon protecting players' fragile mental states. You should tell that to them next time a player goes 2-0 up in a bo5. That's totally unfair on the guy 0-2 down, it puts him under sick pressure to perform and often makes him choke. They should make it 1-1 to be fairer.
Don't you patronize me.
BO5 is all about mental state, it was 1-1 and losing fair and square means the control of games is in your own hand.
MSL Fucked Up Beyond All Recognition on this one.
If you're going to use stupid arguments like how decisions affect a players mental state then I'm going to logically expand them to show you how stupid they are. If you don't like it then don't use them. It's not my fault that you seem to think the job of Kespa in this situation is to worry about how it might effect game 4 if they give JD the win, rather than to accurately assess who won game 3. In my opinion who won game 3 should be detirmined mainly by factors such as what happened in game 3. Like the fact JaeDong won it. That's the kind of stuff I think is important. But you seem to think they should worry about Flash's mental state going into game 4 when making that decision. So I'm going to go ahead and mock it and if that means you feel patronised then as far as I can see it just illustrates why your point was rather stupid.
Yeah, and your point somehow makes a normal gg win/loss the same as a power overload, as if MBC didn't have a hand in it.
In most situations, no. In a situation where a normal gg loss is inevitable and about to happen, yes.
On January 24 2010 05:52 KwarK wrote:They should be ready to deal with it, in the same way footballers don't argue with the ref over a yellow card, even when they disagree with it.
Ya, so when was the last time you watched a football game? XD
No, I see what you mean and I agree. Not messing with the authorities is obviously the smarter thing to do -- I alwasy did think that as a professional sportsman, you needed to have a measure of 'suck it up with a smile' mentality no matter how retarded the ref is being because you just can't win.
But it isn't easy, not everyone's cut out to do it personality-wise, and bringing up football in which players regularly get a red card for arguing against their yellow (or a yellow for arguing against a team mate's yellow) was probably not the best example.
On January 24 2010 02:57 Chef wrote: I think you're neglecting how big an impact that disconnect had on Flash's 4th game.
It was basically either give the series to Jaedong because he deserved to win the 3rd game, or make the series exciting because having a regame won't depress either player, it'll just make them hungry.
I REALLY wanted Jaedong to win, but not like this.
No matter what it sucks both ways. An amazing series was ruined by a technical difficulty, and nothing short of going back in time and fixing the cables will change that. It's bullshit all the way around. The referee could a flipped a coin on the decision and it wouldn't matter. All he had to choose was which crappy decision to make. Neither can be justified.
If Flash broke down mentally, it's his fault, not KeSPA's.
It is Kespa's fault because they are responsible for the event. If the blackout had not happened, FLash would not have had a mental breakdown.
As a Flash fan, I have to say that Jaedong overall outplayed Flash this series (without taking into account game 4, in which Flash looked flustered, and attacked in such a manner), and also had better mental preparation and control (including game 4). He definitely deserved the win, although there will be an asterisk next to it due to game 3.
Jaedong was definitely way ahead in game 3. Perhaps Flash could have dropship'd Jaedong's 3'oclock base, which if I recall correctly had 2 or 3 sunkens and no nydus, and thus reduced Jaedong to 2 mining bases and 3 gas (Jaedong's main looked pretty mined or just about to). However, Jaedong probably would have countered to Flash's min only and taken the game if that had happened, as Flash didn't have too many units. However, as we cannot see their resource counters, who knows, though Flash's macro suggests he was probably low on minerals and gas. We also don't know how low the vessels were on energy - what if they had 72 energy or something close to irradiate? If only MBC adopted the resource counter in use by both OGN and TSL (MSL catching up to foreign tourneys in tech? lol?).
So, while it didn't look like either player had a particularly good econ (pulling drones to his newest gas makes no drones on minerals at 7 for Jaedong), Jaedong definitely had a better econ, all his tech, and probably good map control, and almost certainly would have won. However, it's just wrong to lose a game like that, where you don't get eliminated and you didn't gg yet, even if gg was probably close. Now, it seems MBC is low on money and so this would be infeasible, but I would have preferred that the entire series be delayed, and picked up a week later with a bo5 on Odd-eye with Jaedong starting 1-0 to determine who gets the game 3 point, and then playing game 4 and 5 out. But, since this is not possible, giving Jaedong the win was the only viable choice for Kespa, and KT shouldn't have delayed the game for so long, as it definitely didn't help out Flash's mental state. I mean, who the hell attacks a sunken line with less medics than sunkens, and not many marines to boot?
Also, what is this I heard in the live report thread about a fan breaking into Flash's booth? Is it true? If so, MBC is even more at fault than before. If the venue weren't bad enough to begin with... not even playing live in front of the audience... booth incursions would be even worse.
His vessels were definitely low on energy as they floated over a live defiler for a while and didn't irradiate it even when they irradiated other units around it. His vessel count was also really low for a Terran that went 2port sk the whole game.
JD had a significant lead in game 3, and he had a dominant game 1. Flash in game 4 however was completely mentally broken and I consider this a strong BO3 win for JD.
regardless of any sort of arguments, nothing can change the results now, whether or not that u would agree with legitimacy of this tourneys, i think we can all agree in one fact...
MBC just ruined one of the most epic straleague finals ever, i'd bet that on the next MSL, they'de get a heater manufacturing company as their sponsor
On January 24 2010 02:41 motbob wrote: I posit that in these situations, it is best to take the course of action that screws over a player by the least amount.
Flash just need gas for vessels he never intend to get tanks he never did so cut the crap on the gas count plz, flash is able to mas huge armys from 1-2 bases and thats what he was doing hir lol, he was about to take JD base out.. 2 ultras that survive... with how many hp less than 50??? 3 vessels with less than 75 energy??? what is a couple of those were at 73-71energy???
Flash wasn't getting hir third up he had it up...
Plz stop making maybes... your not sure as no one is because theres no fucking replay!!!
The regame was the corret choice we all know it, many said that JD practice more for that match or that use a special build, who cares? the match wasn't over that was the map to play rematch was the correct choice.
yeah, sk terran doesn't need gas at all, and retreating with 10 rines and 8 medics is exactly how you finally take out the expansion you've been attacking for ~four minutes
On January 24 2010 02:57 Chef wrote: I think you're neglecting how big an impact that disconnect had on Flash's 4th game.
It was basically either give the series to Jaedong because he deserved to win the 3rd game, or make the series exciting because having a regame won't depress either player, it'll just make them hungry..
Thats the point exactly, it would have depressed Jaedong, because he just earned that game and had an insane advantage. On a map which is heavily Terran favored.
I disagree and thing that it would not have rattled jaedong so much as it's generally par for the course I imagine. JaeDong would be like OK I was ahead but this stupid power outage happened so fair enough we have to replay it.
Doesn't matter what kind of units they had, 5 gas + a 6th gas coming HE WAS GOING TO HAVE REINFORCEMENTS unless he just completely slammed his head into the monitor and forgot to macro for 3 minutes.
Economically JD was doing much, much better and they gave Flash the win for that.
Jeadong had a plan in his head for that specific map - he couldn't have gone 3 hatch be4 pool again.. Flash would have bunker rushed - or even play his usual 1rax -> cc and won this time around. Of course it would have rattled Jaedong if he had to play a rematch!
can someone give any valid argument why match point and ultimatum are terran favored? referring to statistics is so retarded cause there were maps where statistics were 90% in favor of certain race after 20ish games and it equalized later on, you'd need a good amount of games to be able to claim map imbalance based on statistics
number of games according to tl statistics: match point: TvZ: 10-6 ultimatum: TvZ: 6-3
anyone who knows ANYTHING AT ALL about statistics knows that you need a good sample for statistics to be valid source of information, 16 and 9 games is ridiculously small sample, it could've been 90% either way depending on which players happened to play for each race
match point is in my opinion zerg favored map because of architecture around mains and nats that make muta harass way more effective then it is on other maps. most tvz games I've seen on it were 2 hatch muta openings and terrans struggling to hold it off, specially at nat. there's also more space behind main mineral line in compare to other maps, space which is hard to maneuver around with mnm cause of mineral line itself and you can't shoot from between cc and minerals (not with enough marines anyway) so you can take advantage of it with mutas and snipe few extra scvs then you normally would have. there are also plenty of ridges everywhere for mutas to combat mnm force in the field if terran decides to fight muta harass by being aggressive. we've seen flash losing to some zerg whose name I can't remember earlier this season for this very reason. he went 2 hatch mutas and "abused" map architecture to gain advantage, and then just played a standard game after that, riding the advantage gained from said map flaw
ultimatum is also zerg favored in my opinion because of island expansions. zerg has much better mobility then terran as far as island hopping goes because of nydus canals and scourge. now add the fact there are 2 island expos right next to each main and you get exactly what happened in game 2. jaedong had fantastic build to take advantage of this but he made a huge mistake by using guardians offensively instead of defensively. had he used guardians to defend his 4 expos, all of them would've been virtually indestructible and you'd see the unstoppable flood of ultra/ling cover the map just as the upgrades kick in
even tho I'm flash fan, jaedong outplayed him today, winning metagame in every set (with the exception of above mentioned mistake in g2) and I'm fairly sure he would've won the series even if blackout didn't occur
The power outage was epic fail, but the game was still over... Jaedong could have won just by massing ultras and some scourge. It was OVER. 6 gas vs 1.5 base T soon to be 1 base T.
On January 24 2010 07:01 checo wrote: Flash just need gas for vessels he never intend to get tanks he never did so cut the crap on the gas count plz
Yes, gas is needed for Vessels and he was running out of gas without many Vessels left. SK Terran without a large Vessel count = crap. You either need a lot of Vessels or some Vessels with Tanks. Flash had neither.. If he had like 12 Vessels or so floating around, I might be inclined to agree with you that the gas difference might be less of a factor, but that's not the case.
On January 24 2010 07:01 checo wrote: flash is able to mas huge armys from 1-2 bases and thats what he was doing hir lol,
Yes, but he lost most of that army and his resources were quickly running out whereas JD was making more bases. From an economic standpoint, Flash was at a huge disadvantage. Within a few minutes, Flash would have been macroing from 1 base while JD would have been macroing from numerous bases. It's just a numbers game at that point.
On January 24 2010 07:01 checo wrote: he was about to take JD base out.. 2 ultras that survive... with how many hp less than 50??? 3 vessels with less than 75 energy??? what is a couple of those were at 73-71energy???
If you actually see, Flash was retreating and JD was reinforcing his base with more Ultras and Zerglings before the blackout. With Dark Swarm coming from the 2 Defilers he had at the base right before the blackout, it doesn't matter if an Ultra has 10HP, you can't kill it with Marines.. There's no way Flash could have easily taken out JD's base and if you can honestly say that after watching the VOD again up to the point of the blackout, you're delusional..
On January 24 2010 07:01 checo wrote: Flash wasn't getting hir third up he had it up...
With his other bases quickly running out of resources while JD still had numerous bases to mine from, none of which were in any danger.
On January 24 2010 07:01 checo wrote: Plz stop making maybes... your not sure as no one is because theres no fucking replay!!!
It seems you're the one making the "maybes" here. Most of the others in this thread are actually looking at the objective evidence as displayed in the VOD..
On January 24 2010 07:01 checo wrote: The regame was the corret choice we all know it, many said that JD practice more for that match or that use a special build, who cares? the match wasn't over that was the map to play rematch was the correct choice.
The match was pretty much over at the point that Flash lost all those units and couldn't break JD's 7 o'clock base. Could you argue for a replay? Sure, but it's not necessarily the correct choice. Starting the game over would effectively void the fact that Flash was losing the game by a good margin first time around and give him another chance. While neither situation is "fair", the correct one in my opinion would be the one that takes into account all the events that have actually occurred so long as a reasonable conclusion could be drawn from those events. In this scenario, it's reasonable to assume given the situation of both players that JD had a clear advantage and would have most likely won. We're not talking about a game that just started or one where both sides still had massive blobs yet to engage eachother. This game was pretty close to the end point and if you look at it calmly and objectively rather in the heat of the moment, you can see that.
in that 4th game, any nooby who knows that W is dark swarm. and SU is make ultras could've beaten flash.
it would've taken a miracle, flash had about 2 vessels, a tiny marine medic count, no tanks/mines, and jaedong was on 4 gas ( about to get 5). All he needed to do was attack the 3rd base that couldn't have been defended considering how many units flash had and it would be game.
If flash was actually on 3 bases the game would be 55%jaedong/45% flash, but he wasn't. his main was completely mined out, and his nat only had about 100~300 minerals.
If flash had 6+ vessels mines surrounding his 3rd, and a secure fourth about to come up then he would have a good chance of winning, but when it blacked out flash had no where near that.
No one should be debating who was winning that game or how close it was. imo jaedong destroyed and dominated flash from a bad position. we can only blame MBC for having a power outage during a game that could've been an excellent match with a clear ending.
This decision illustrates the current immatury of the e-sports scene, no referee could even think at giving a win in Chess based on superior positioning, or give it to a Soccer team because it was leading 2-0 15 mins before the end of the game.
You know why ? Because people do MISTAKES all the time, this is what makes the atmosphere epic, they're humans, they throw away games they should theoretically win. This is how a supposedly win game for a player in Chess end up as a draw, this is how Flash lost his previous advantage.
Great article, I agree that Jaedong had the edge there and was holding out the 7 o'clock defense amazingly. I really felt like that game 3 was the highest level of SC I've ever seen and I'm really saddened it had to end like that. Overall I agree with Kespa's decision for the reasons stated in this article, but they should have handled Flash's dad + KT staff shitstorm much better.
And about game 4, I don't think Flash was "not trying" or out of it. He came in with the 7 rax and Jaedong's 9 pool was perfect, you saw Flash get shaken when he first see's the build during the game. Flash's window to put pressure on the nat had sunken's timed just right and Flash was indecisive. Flash IS human, after seeing that you know Jae had the psychological edge and flash new it was an elimination game and may have felt a little extra pressure and just fell to the a true master in Jaedong.
Regardless of the drama, I am trying to focus how impressed I am with Jaedong and how amazing his play and strategies were. He had the BETTER preparation than Flash clearly (flash focused on other things obviously) and I would never bet against Jaedong in a best of 5 when he has only it to focus on.
The call that Jaedong won game 3 is hard to argue hard against, but you can't count out the possibility that flash might have pulled out some amazing play, and came back. I don't think that assuming Jaedong would have won and giving him a third of the wins needed to take the series was right, but it would have also been unfair to throw out his advantage in game 3 with a rematch.
I think it should have extended to a best of 7 match up. Neither player was prepared for that and the power outage would have had a lesser effect on the series. They should have been given a chance to talk to each other to decide on the maps that would be played and in what order. If they could not agree on what maps they wanted then the maps should have been decided on by a third party. Seems like the fairest way in my book.
Kespa gives win to Jaedong = Flash fans raging Kespa makes them replay = Jaedong fans raging EITHER way, not everyone is happy... Maybe if they interview Flash about that game, and if he says he would lose, everyone would shut up about this decision...
On January 24 2010 08:27 Ogawa wrote: Kespa gives win to Jaedong = Flash fans raging Kespa makes them replay = Jaedong fans raging EITHER way, not everyone is happy... Maybe if they interview Flash about that game, and if he says he would lose, everyone would shut up about this decision...
Flash has been a very honest guy in his interviews lately. If he says that he had a fighting chance after evaluating the VOD, I would actually believe him. I don't think that he will say that however. And we don't even know if there is an interview coming up anytime soon.
On January 24 2010 08:27 Ogawa wrote: Kespa gives win to Jaedong = Flash fans raging Kespa makes them replay = Jaedong fans raging EITHER way, not everyone is happy... Maybe if they interview Flash about that game, and if he says he would lose, everyone would shut up about this decision...
Everybody knows that he was in a bad position, although saying that he "would lose" means that there was a 0% probabilitie that he could made a comeback and win. Have you ever hord the expression "It ain't over 'til the fat lady sings" ? It applies to all sports, why not e-sports ?
On January 24 2010 08:16 TeWy wrote: This decision illustrates the current immatury of the e-sports scene, no referee could even think at giving a win in Chess based on superior positioning, or give it to a Soccer team because it was leading 2-0 15 mins before the end of the game.
You know why ? Because people do MISTAKES all the time, this is what makes the atmosphere epic, they're humans, they throw away games they should theoretically win. This is how a supposedly win game for a player in Chess end up as a draw, this is how Flash lost his previous advantage.
Yet in some other professional sports such as Baseball, teams that hold a clear advantage after a certain point in the game are given the win in the case of a rain out or some other circumstance where the game can no longer continue. The chess match argument doesn't apply because a chess game can always EASILY be recreated at the exact point it was cut off. A game of Starcraft cannot without some sort of save file.
I don't think the decision illustrates immaturity on the part of eSports at all unless you also consider Major League Baseball to be an immature sport... Different sports have different ways of dealing with problems. If there's anything that would represent immaturity in eSports to me, it would be the lack of preparation (not having a UPS) and allowing the ensuing tirade from KT to go on to delay the event.
On January 24 2010 08:16 TeWy wrote: This decision illustrates the current immatury of the e-sports scene, no referee could even think at giving a win in Chess based on superior positioning, or give it to a Soccer team because it was leading 2-0 15 mins before the end of the game.
You know why ? Because people do MISTAKES all the time, this is what makes the atmosphere epic, they're humans, they throw away games they should theoretically win. This is how a supposedly win game for a player in Chess end up as a draw, this is how Flash lost his previous advantage.
Yet in some other professional sports such as Baseball, teams that hold a clear advantage after a certain point in the game are given the win in the case of a rain out or some other circumstance where the game can no longer continue. The chess match argument doesn't apply because a chess game can always EASILY be recreated at the exact point it was cut off. A game of Starcraft cannot without some sort of save file.
I don't think the decision illustrates immaturity on the part of eSports at all unless you also consider Major League Baseball to be an immature sport... Different sports have different ways of dealing with problems. If there's anything that would represent immaturity in eSports to me, it would be the lack of preparation (not having a UPS) and allowing the ensuing tirade from KT to go on to delay the event.
Could you please point out some examples of that Baseball thing ? I would like to know what they consider to be a "clear advantage".
On January 24 2010 08:49 TeWy wrote: Could you please point out some examples of that Baseball thing ? I would like to know what they consider to be a "clear advantage".
If a game is rained out before play begins, it is rescheduled for a later date. If it has already begun and rain falls, several scenarios are used to determine the need to resume play: * If the game has completed the top half of the 5th inning and the home team is ahead, the game can be deemed an official game. The home team is declared the winner, and the game officially counts in standings. * If the game has completed the bottom half of the 5th inning and either team is ahead, the game can be deemed an official game. The leading team is declared the winner, and the game officially counts in standings. * If the game has completed the 5th inning, and the teams are tied, or if the game is a playoff game, the game is considered suspended, and the resumption of the game is scheduled for a future date (usually the following day). The game picks up from where it left off. * If neither of the previous three scenarios apply, the game can not be deemed official. The umpire declares "No Game," and a make-up of the game is scheduled for a future date. The statistics compiled during the rained out game are not counted.
Obviously there's the bit about the playoff game, but in this scenario, we're clearly not in a position where we could simply pick up a Starcraft game from where it left off. The alternative would be a rematch from scratch, which should be the absolute last resort and in this particular instance, I think it would have been unwarranted given the fact that there was such a clear advantage. Of course it'll always be an argument, but my point was merely to state that such a decision isn't unprecedented in the sporting world and shouldn't reflect negatively on KeSPA just because they happened to make it. The funny thing about Baseball's rule to me is that it only requires the game to be more than half over (the same with Motorsports). I think we can all agree that Game 3 of the MSL was probably well past that point when the blackout happened..
* If the game has completed the 5th inning, and the teams are tied, or if the game is a playoff game, the game is considered suspended, and the resumption of the game is scheduled for a future date (usually the following day). The game picks up from where it left off.
It was this, but the bases were loaded and there was a slugger going up against a very tired pitcher.
Overwhelming? Hardly. It was just an advantage. You cannot say with 100% certainty that it was over. Think Boxer vs Joyo. If the power cut when those carriers and goons arrived in Boxer's main would you have given Joyo the win?
On January 24 2010 08:49 JiYan wrote: jaedong won the match imo, but i wouldnt say he cemented his spot as the best. lets be real, flash wasnt playing in top form.
Jaedong in OSL wasnt in top form either, but that prevented no one from saying JD's ZvT is not the best anymore. Or "standard or cheese, whatever Flash rapes Jaedong".
Prior to match: Man, I think this series might be one-sided like Bisu vs. Jaedong because any small mistake by either player will be capitalized on and ridden all the way to victory because these guys are just so good!
After: Uh Flash was way behind but hey remember when TT lost?
* If the game has completed the 5th inning, and the teams are tied, or if the game is a playoff game, the game is considered suspended, and the resumption of the game is scheduled for a future date (usually the following day). The game picks up from where it left off.
It was this, but the bases were loaded and there was a slugger going up against a very tired pitcher.
Well, I don't think the situation was nearly as dramatic as you paint it to be. The major battle for 7 o'clock was already over and Flash was headed back to defend his expansion with what little troops he had so I would view it as 9th inning with 2 outs and no runners on base while behind 5-1. Possible? Yes. Likely? No? Should it have been played out? Of course, but that's impossible given the blackout and lack of a save file. The main question is, should 8 2/3 innings of play be thrown out because of the rain? Obviously everyone has different opinions regarding this...
Even with set rules in the MLB, fans always rage when games are decided by rain. It's obviously no different here. KeSPA really was put into a horrible situation here. Unfortunately someone has to get shit on, and in this case it happened to be Flash.
On January 24 2010 09:04 Jlab wrote: They shuolda gone into map editor and recreated the game. then it would have been fair.
Lol this may have taken less time than flash's dad and the KT Coach antics. But they will never know exactly what each mineral patch was at, etc etc etc
Yepp watch the last seconds of the game there was more zergs-thing moving towards the 8 clock expo then the screen shows while Flash had ten marins and a bunch of medics. The marins was heding toward the newly expo to try to defend but it would have been very very hard.
But still its a hard decision to take and its never fair.
On January 24 2010 03:46 JWD wrote: motbob I agree with your game analysis but not your conclusion. I'm busting ass on a school assignment that's due in 3hrs15min right now, but if I've still got any steam left when I finish I will make another OP with my argument.
no, post it here
there's a million threads already hahahahah
anyway, motbob's analysis of the game is spot on. i am without question in favor of a regame. i find the idea that it's "more unfair to jaedong" because his build only works once to be completely ludicrous. that one-in-ten chance of flash winning is enough to warrant a rematch
i can't believe people are victimizing flash so much. of course the whole ordeal affected flash but implying game 4 was not a "real" game is absolutely retarded. jaedong played that match very well and had he not scouted the second rax by going behind the marine line or picked off the firebats which had just finished the game could have been totally different.
On January 24 2010 03:46 JWD wrote: motbob I agree with your game analysis but not your conclusion. I'm busting ass on a school assignment that's due in 3hrs15min right now, but if I've still got any steam left when I finish I will make another OP with my argument.
no, post it here
there's a million threads already hahahahah
anyway, motbob's analysis of the game is spot on. i am without question in favor of a regame. i find the idea that it's "more unfair to jaedong" because his build only works once to be completely ludicrous. that one-in-ten chance of flash winning is enough to warrant a rematch
At the expense of JD's 9 in 10 chance of winning, which he acquired over 18 mins of fantastic play and an opening build that countered Flash's plan, and expect him to start anew in a terran-favored map?
On January 24 2010 03:46 JWD wrote: motbob I agree with your game analysis but not your conclusion. I'm busting ass on a school assignment that's due in 3hrs15min right now, but if I've still got any steam left when I finish I will make another OP with my argument.
no, post it here
there's a million threads already hahahahah
anyway, motbob's analysis of the game is spot on. i am without question in favor of a regame. i find the idea that it's "more unfair to jaedong" because his build only works once to be completely ludicrous. that one-in-ten chance of flash winning is enough to warrant a rematch
i would have liked a regame for the chance of seeing more games between these two. but i still think that jaedong had it in the bag. if flash pressured at all with his tiny force elsewhere on the map, jaedong would have just backstabbed flash's only real mining expo. trade one base for terrans only mining base that will last? hell yeah on zergs part.
but it just sucks and i believe the kespa refs made the best call they could. fuck mbc for not having resource counters, it woulda made it even easier for people to judge.
On January 24 2010 03:46 JWD wrote: motbob I agree with your game analysis but not your conclusion. I'm busting ass on a school assignment that's due in 3hrs15min right now, but if I've still got any steam left when I finish I will make another OP with my argument.
no, post it here
there's a million threads already hahahahah
anyway, motbob's analysis of the game is spot on. i am without question in favor of a regame. i find the idea that it's "more unfair to jaedong" because his build only works once to be completely ludicrous. that one-in-ten chance of flash winning is enough to warrant a rematch
Then Bisu should have been given a rematch vs Julyzerg.
On January 24 2010 03:46 JWD wrote: motbob I agree with your game analysis but not your conclusion. I'm busting ass on a school assignment that's due in 3hrs15min right now, but if I've still got any steam left when I finish I will make another OP with my argument.
no, post it here
there's a million threads already hahahahah
anyway, motbob's analysis of the game is spot on. i am without question in favor of a regame. i find the idea that it's "more unfair to jaedong" because his build only works once to be completely ludicrous. that one-in-ten chance of flash winning is enough to warrant a rematch
At the expense of JD's 9 in 10 chance of winning, which he acquired over 18 mins of fantastic play and an opening build that countered Flash's plan, and expect him to start anew in a terran-favored map?
yes, absolutely. on what planet is it appropriate to make decisions like this based on how fair the map is, or how heavily one player's build relies on surprise?
On January 24 2010 09:45 Scaramanga wrote: Oh being told that you lose a game due to a power outage is the fairest thing ive ever heard of
Then you've missed the entire point of the OP's post..
On January 24 2010 09:49 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: yes, absolutely. on what planet is it appropriate to make decisions like this based on how fair the map is, or how heavily one player's build relies on surprise?
I think it was more of an appropriate decision based on how the game had gone and what position both players were in. Even without arguing map balance or whatever, JD was clearly ahead by a healthy margin at that point after successfully defending his expansion and Flash retreating back to his base. To throw away the entire game past the point where a recovery could not be reasonably or convincingly argued doesn't make a whole lot of sense from an officiating standpoint despite the fact that it would provide a better experience for viewers by giving them another game. The long delay after the decision was really the bigger problem, I think. Allowing people to go on a tirade to argue the decision for like an hour was the worst thing ever..
Why is it that nobody mentions that JD was probably more heavily screwed over by the power outage? He could've(and most likely would've) beaten Flash fair and square after playing a brilliant match against map imbalances... Now his honor was tainted by this MBC blunder. It's JD getting screwed, not Flash.
On January 24 2010 09:49 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: yes, absolutely. on what planet is it appropriate to make decisions like this based on how fair the map is, or how heavily one player's build relies on surprise?
I think it was more of an appropriate decision based on how the game had gone and what position both players were in. Even without arguing map balance or whatever, JD was clearly ahead by a healthy margin at that point after successfully defending his expansion and Flash retreating back to his base. To throw away the entire game past the point where a recovery could not be reasonably or convincingly argued doesn't make a whole lot of sense from an officiating standpoint despite the fact that it would provide a better experience for viewers by giving them another game. The long delay after the decision was really the bigger problem, I think. Allowing people to go on a tirade to argue the decision for like an hour was the worst thing ever..
the result isn't a foregone conclusion. the basic facts amount to a requirement that Jaedong makes a critical mistake for Flash to come back and win. A player shouldn't be given that credit, and another player should have an opportunity to seize that 10% chance.
I would definitely agree that given the precedent set by terrible KeSPA decision-making over the last few years, their choice was definitely the path of least resistance. I am simply in favor of a rematch unless a winner is clearly already decided, to the point where the winning player is simply performing cleanup. that's a pretty different situation from this flash vs jaedong game
On January 24 2010 03:46 JWD wrote: motbob I agree with your game analysis but not your conclusion. I'm busting ass on a school assignment that's due in 3hrs15min right now, but if I've still got any steam left when I finish I will make another OP with my argument.
no, post it here
there's a million threads already hahahahah
anyway, motbob's analysis of the game is spot on. i am without question in favor of a regame. i find the idea that it's "more unfair to jaedong" because his build only works once to be completely ludicrous. that one-in-ten chance of flash winning is enough to warrant a rematch
At the expense of JD's 9 in 10 chance of winning, which he acquired over 18 mins of fantastic play and an opening build that countered Flash's plan, and expect him to start anew in a terran-favored map?
yes, absolutely. on what planet is it appropriate to make decisions like this based on how fair the map is, or how heavily one player's build relies on surprise?
I think you're being sarcastic, but that seems pretty fair to me. Jaedong had to overcome map imbalance to get what everyone agrees is an almost certain win. How is it fair to take away a 99% win and throw Jaedong into a situation where the tables are turned and he's extremely likely to lose?
Saying that a rematch would be better is based on the premise that the rematch would be fair. (50% chance to win for both players) That's not true. And even if both players had 50% chance to win the rematch, Jaedong would still be getting shafted.
I would definitely agree that given the precedent set by terrible KeSPA decision-making over the last few years, their choice was definitely the path of least resistance. I am simply in favor of a rematch unless a winner is clearly already decided, to the point where the winning player is simply performing cleanup. that's a pretty different situation from this flash vs jaedong game
I agree with you. Think Boxer vs Joyo, or any other games where it was a comeback from the brink. Even the 2v2 where Backho came back 1v2 vs KTF. There is always a fighting chance. IMO, Boxer vs Joyo was in a far more perilous situation and managed to come back from the brink.
I agree with FakeSteve. It is pretty much undeniable now that Jaedong was indeed ahead but like he says, if anyone can seize that 10% chance, it would be Flash and that's is what should have made this set memorable. When Flash captures victory and makes a great comeback - these are the kind of games that a Grand Final should be remembered for. Not a silly ass heater black out.
THE MAP IS NAMED FIGHTING SPIRIT FOR GOD'S SAKE (4set). And how much spirit could Flash have after that whole mess? :/
On January 24 2010 03:46 JWD wrote: motbob I agree with your game analysis but not your conclusion. I'm busting ass on a school assignment that's due in 3hrs15min right now, but if I've still got any steam left when I finish I will make another OP with my argument.
no, post it here
there's a million threads already hahahahah
anyway, motbob's analysis of the game is spot on. i am without question in favor of a regame. i find the idea that it's "more unfair to jaedong" because his build only works once to be completely ludicrous. that one-in-ten chance of flash winning is enough to warrant a rematch
At the expense of JD's 9 in 10 chance of winning, which he acquired over 18 mins of fantastic play and an opening build that countered Flash's plan, and expect him to start anew in a terran-favored map?
yes, absolutely. on what planet is it appropriate to make decisions like this based on how fair the map is, or how heavily one player's build relies on surprise?
I think you're being sarcastic, but that seems pretty fair to me. Jaedong had to overcome map imbalance to get what everyone agrees is an almost certain win. How is it fair to take away a 99% win and throw Jaedong into a situation where the tables are turned and he's extremely likely to lose?
Saying that a rematch would be better is based on the premise that the rematch would be fair. (50% chance to win for both players) That's not true. And even if both players had 50% chance to win the rematch, Jaedong would still be getting shafted.
by that logic, no map should be chosen that is not 100% balanced in every matchup
since that's frankly impossible... well, imo it should be pretty easy to see why KeSPA shouldn't be considering map balance when making this decision i'm really not sure where this idea that the decision 'has to be fair to jaedong because he is playing on an imbalanced map' comes from. the game was not over, that should instantly be a rematch.
FakeSteve, I ran a few simulations in comparable situations and the game was about 20 seconds from ending in those. I don't think Flash had 10%. Flash couldn't hold off the units JD had at the time of the disc, let alone the ones he had 30 seconds later. Pure marines and medics simply cannot kill those numbers of ultralisks. Ever.
On January 24 2010 10:20 KwarK wrote: FakeSteve, I ran a few simulations in comparable situations and the game was about 20 seconds from ending in those. I don't think Flash had 10%. Flash couldn't hold off the units JD had at the time of the disc, let alone the ones he had 30 seconds later. Pure marines and medics simply cannot kill those numbers of ultralisks. Ever.
don't think i'm being rude or personal or anything, but your simulations have literally zero reflection on a professional game hahah
On January 24 2010 08:49 TeWy wrote: Could you please point out some examples of that Baseball thing ? I would like to know what they consider to be a "clear advantage".
If a game is rained out before play begins, it is rescheduled for a later date. If it has already begun and rain falls, several scenarios are used to determine the need to resume play: * If the game has completed the top half of the 5th inning and the home team is ahead, the game can be deemed an official game. The home team is declared the winner, and the game officially counts in standings. * If the game has completed the bottom half of the 5th inning and either team is ahead, the game can be deemed an official game. The leading team is declared the winner, and the game officially counts in standings. * If the game has completed the 5th inning, and the teams are tied, or if the game is a playoff game, the game is considered suspended, and the resumption of the game is scheduled for a future date (usually the following day). The game picks up from where it left off. * If neither of the previous three scenarios apply, the game can not be deemed official. The umpire declares "No Game," and a make-up of the game is scheduled for a future date. The statistics compiled during the rained out game are not counted.
Except Bud Selig, the commissioner of MLB, clearly stated if the game were called when the Phillies were up 2-1 on the Rays after the 5th inning, that MLB would have overruled this:
No shortened victory
The game became an official game after the fifth inning. Had umpires stopped it there, with the Phillies leading 2-1, the Phils could have been awarded their trophy.
Selig said that wouldn’t have happened. He said Game 5 will be a nine-inning game.
You see, even in MLB, the commissioner has the sense to not "gift" the win to a particular team, despite that team having an advantage when the game was cancelled.
On January 24 2010 10:19 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: by that logic, no map should be chosen that is not 100% balanced in every matchup
since that's frankly impossible... well, imo it should be pretty easy to see why KeSPA shouldn't be considering map balance when making this decision
But a re-game wouldn't be preserving what you call Flash's 10% chance to win- even in the ideal case it would be giving him a 50% chance to win.
Now, check my math, but I think that's 40 percentage points of unfair to Jaedong, whereas awarding the game is only 10% unfair to Flash.
it's not about making sure the percentages add up. are we gonna award a player a win during a disconnect because he killed one probe compared to the opponent's zero probe kills, therefore the player with the victorious probe has a 51% chance to win?
On January 24 2010 10:20 KwarK wrote: FakeSteve, I ran a few simulations in comparable situations and the game was about 20 seconds from ending in those. I don't think Flash had 10%. Flash couldn't hold off the units JD had at the time of the disc, let alone the ones he had 30 seconds later. Pure marines and medics simply cannot kill those numbers of ultralisks. Ever.
don't think i'm being rude or personal or anything, but your simulations have literally zero reflection on a professional game hahah
I believe I can accurately reflect the incomes of players. I know how many drones JD had at every base but 3. I know how many mineral patches Flash had. That tells me what kind of economy they were working with. Obviously I'm not JD and my opponent wasn't Flash. But could you at least agree that I can create an approximate reproduction of the economy in that game?
On January 24 2010 10:20 KwarK wrote: FakeSteve, I ran a few simulations in comparable situations and the game was about 20 seconds from ending in those. I don't think Flash had 10%. Flash couldn't hold off the units JD had at the time of the disc, let alone the ones he had 30 seconds later. Pure marines and medics simply cannot kill those numbers of ultralisks. Ever.
don't think i'm being rude or personal or anything, but your simulations have literally zero reflection on a professional game hahah
I believe I can accurately reflect the incomes of players. I know how many drones JD had at every base but 3. I know how many mineral patches Flash had. That tells me what kind of economy they were working with. Obviously I'm not JD and my opponent wasn't Flash. But could you at least agree that I can create an approximate reproduction of the economy in that game?
sure, but why do you think you can create a realistic approximation of the events that would take place had the blackout not happened?
On January 24 2010 10:19 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: by that logic, no map should be chosen that is not 100% balanced in every matchup
since that's frankly impossible... well, imo it should be pretty easy to see why KeSPA shouldn't be considering map balance when making this decision
But a re-game wouldn't be preserving what you call Flash's 10% chance to win- even in the ideal case it would be giving him a 50% chance to win.
Now, check my math, but I think that's 40 percentage points of unfair to Jaedong, whereas awarding the game is only 10% unfair to Flash.
it's not about making sure the percentages add up. are we gonna award a player a win during a disconnect because he killed one probe compared to the opponent's zero probe kills, therefore the player with the victorious probe has a 51% chance to win?
the game was not over
But Jaedong was on 5 gas and Flash was quickly being reduced to a mineral-only. That's not anything like a single probe kill.
The game WAS over.
Sure, there was a chance that Jaedong might have decided to go out for a hamburger, but there's an equal chance that Flash would do the same, and in neither case is it high enough to justify a rematch.
On January 24 2010 10:20 KwarK wrote: FakeSteve, I ran a few simulations in comparable situations and the game was about 20 seconds from ending in those. I don't think Flash had 10%. Flash couldn't hold off the units JD had at the time of the disc, let alone the ones he had 30 seconds later. Pure marines and medics simply cannot kill those numbers of ultralisks. Ever.
don't think i'm being rude or personal or anything, but your simulations have literally zero reflection on a professional game hahah
I believe I can accurately reflect the incomes of players. I know how many drones JD had at every base but 3. I know how many mineral patches Flash had. That tells me what kind of economy they were working with. Obviously I'm not JD and my opponent wasn't Flash. But could you at least agree that I can create an approximate reproduction of the economy in that game?
sure, but why do you think you can create a realistic approximation of the events that would take place had the blackout not happened?
Well assuming both players used their resources to make units, the events are predictable. JaeDong makes ultralisks and Flash loses almost immediately. Bw is an economic game. Micro is an important factor but nobodies micro is that good.
On January 24 2010 08:49 TeWy wrote: Could you please point out some examples of that Baseball thing ? I would like to know what they consider to be a "clear advantage".
If a game is rained out before play begins, it is rescheduled for a later date. If it has already begun and rain falls, several scenarios are used to determine the need to resume play: * If the game has completed the top half of the 5th inning and the home team is ahead, the game can be deemed an official game. The home team is declared the winner, and the game officially counts in standings. * If the game has completed the bottom half of the 5th inning and either team is ahead, the game can be deemed an official game. The leading team is declared the winner, and the game officially counts in standings. * If the game has completed the 5th inning, and the teams are tied, or if the game is a playoff game, the game is considered suspended, and the resumption of the game is scheduled for a future date (usually the following day). The game picks up from where it left off. * If neither of the previous three scenarios apply, the game can not be deemed official. The umpire declares "No Game," and a make-up of the game is scheduled for a future date. The statistics compiled during the rained out game are not counted.
Except Bud Selig, the commissioner of MLB, clearly stated if the game were called when the Phillies were up 2-1 on the Rays after the 5th inning, that MLB would have overruled this:
The game became an official game after the fifth inning. Had umpires stopped it there, with the Phillies leading 2-1, the Phils could have been awarded their trophy.
Selig said that wouldn’t have happened. He said Game 5 will be a nine-inning game.
You see, even in MLB, the commissioner has the sense to not "gift" the win to a particular team, despite that team having an advantage when the game was cancelled.
On January 24 2010 08:49 TeWy wrote: Could you please point out some examples of that Baseball thing ? I would like to know what they consider to be a "clear advantage".
If a game is rained out before play begins, it is rescheduled for a later date. If it has already begun and rain falls, several scenarios are used to determine the need to resume play: * If the game has completed the top half of the 5th inning and the home team is ahead, the game can be deemed an official game. The home team is declared the winner, and the game officially counts in standings. * If the game has completed the bottom half of the 5th inning and either team is ahead, the game can be deemed an official game. The leading team is declared the winner, and the game officially counts in standings. * If the game has completed the 5th inning, and the teams are tied, or if the game is a playoff game, the game is considered suspended, and the resumption of the game is scheduled for a future date (usually the following day). The game picks up from where it left off. * If neither of the previous three scenarios apply, the game can not be deemed official. The umpire declares "No Game," and a make-up of the game is scheduled for a future date. The statistics compiled during the rained out game are not counted.
Except Bud Selig, the commissioner of MLB, clearly stated if the game were called when the Phillies were up 2-1 on the Rays after the 5th inning, that MLB would have overruled this:
No shortened victory
The game became an official game after the fifth inning. Had umpires stopped it there, with the Phillies leading 2-1, the Phils could have been awarded their trophy.
Selig said that wouldn’t have happened. He said Game 5 will be a nine-inning game.
You see, even in MLB, the commissioner has the sense to not "gift" the win to a particular team, despite that team having an advantage when the game was cancelled.
Everyone and KESPa needs to read this post.
But when we're talking about a score of 50-1 and there are only a few minutes left in the baseball game, I start to question whether a rematch is really the best policy.
On January 24 2010 10:19 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: by that logic, no map should be chosen that is not 100% balanced in every matchup
since that's frankly impossible... well, imo it should be pretty easy to see why KeSPA shouldn't be considering map balance when making this decision
But a re-game wouldn't be preserving what you call Flash's 10% chance to win- even in the ideal case it would be giving him a 50% chance to win.
Now, check my math, but I think that's 40 percentage points of unfair to Jaedong, whereas awarding the game is only 10% unfair to Flash.
it's not about making sure the percentages add up. are we gonna award a player a win during a disconnect because he killed one probe compared to the opponent's zero probe kills, therefore the player with the victorious probe has a 51% chance to win?
the game was not over
But Jaedong was on 5 gas and Flash was quickly being reduced to a mineral-only. That's not anything like a single probe kill.
The game WAS over.
Sure, there was a chance that Jaedong might have decided to go out for a hamburger, but there's an equal chance that Flash would do the same, and in neither case is it high enough to justify a rematch.
ok, i'm gonna repeat this one more time. it is possible for flash to win given the situation that the players were in at the time of the blackout. it's a pretty remote chance, and it would require jaedong to make an error in his decision making, but the winner had not yet been decided, and making a decision based on perceived probabilities and the interest of fairness based on map imbalance and one player's build relying on surprise is a horrible admin decision.
On January 24 2010 10:20 KwarK wrote: FakeSteve, I ran a few simulations in comparable situations and the game was about 20 seconds from ending in those. I don't think Flash had 10%. Flash couldn't hold off the units JD had at the time of the disc, let alone the ones he had 30 seconds later. Pure marines and medics simply cannot kill those numbers of ultralisks. Ever.
don't think i'm being rude or personal or anything, but your simulations have literally zero reflection on a professional game hahah
I believe I can accurately reflect the incomes of players. I know how many drones JD had at every base but 3. I know how many mineral patches Flash had. That tells me what kind of economy they were working with. Obviously I'm not JD and my opponent wasn't Flash. But could you at least agree that I can create an approximate reproduction of the economy in that game?
sure, but why do you think you can create a realistic approximation of the events that would take place had the blackout not happened?
Well assuming both players used their resources to make units, the events are predictable. JaeDong makes ultralisks and Flash loses almost immediately. Bw is an economic game. Micro is an important factor but nobodies micro is that good.
you must be of the opinion that the game was 100% over at the time of the blackout. that opinion is wrong, and your simulation still has no relevance
On January 24 2010 10:19 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: by that logic, no map should be chosen that is not 100% balanced in every matchup
since that's frankly impossible... well, imo it should be pretty easy to see why KeSPA shouldn't be considering map balance when making this decision
But a re-game wouldn't be preserving what you call Flash's 10% chance to win- even in the ideal case it would be giving him a 50% chance to win.
Now, check my math, but I think that's 40 percentage points of unfair to Jaedong, whereas awarding the game is only 10% unfair to Flash.
it's not about making sure the percentages add up. are we gonna award a player a win during a disconnect because he killed one probe compared to the opponent's zero probe kills, therefore the player with the victorious probe has a 51% chance to win?
the game was not over
But Jaedong was on 5 gas and Flash was quickly being reduced to a mineral-only. That's not anything like a single probe kill.
The game WAS over.
Sure, there was a chance that Jaedong might have decided to go out for a hamburger, but there's an equal chance that Flash would do the same, and in neither case is it high enough to justify a rematch.
ok, i'm gonna repeat this one more time. it is possible for flash to win given the situation that the players were in at the time of the blackout. it's a pretty remote chance, and it would require jaedong to make an error in his decision making, but the winner had not yet been decided, and making a decision based on perceived probabilities and the interest of fairness based on map imbalance and one player's build relying on surprise is a horrible admin decision.
In that case I need you to explain to me what kind of decision-making error Jaedong might have made in that situation to lose that game.
Yep FakeSteve, I can see where you are coming from regarding whether we should take into account the map balance.
Disregarding map balance, don't you still think JD's having such great margin of advantage, to a point of being within minutes of winning if he do not blunder, that replaying will be unfair to him?
My stand is that the awarding JD the game is fair, and would be pretty acceptable to Flash, and had his team and his dad not interfered he would still have the mental strength to finish strong in game 4 and 5.
On January 24 2010 02:48 JadeFist wrote: Correct decision. I remember the Phillies won the world series from a game that was rained out in the middle when they were ahead.
Everyone considered it legit.
Wrong. Bud Selig clearly stated that despite the official rules that allow a MLB baseball game to be called if a team is leading after the 5th inning, he would never have "gifted" the Phillies the free win even if the game were called 2-1 for the Phillies after the 5th:
No shortened victory
The game became an official game after the fifth inning. Had umpires stopped it there, with the Phillies leading 2-1, the Phils could have been awarded their trophy.
Selig said that wouldn’t have happened. He said Game 5 will be a nine-inning game.
if jaedong had at any time abandoned his 7oclock base in favor of attacking or roaming the map or defending his other expansion from a drop or what have you, that's an opportunity for flash to kill 7. it would require jaedong to be slightly negligent, and for flash to control flawlessly, both of which are not impossibilities. the game being 90% in jaedong's favor as i've said is based on the advantage that jaedong had, and the assumption that jaedong is not a hella bad player who would fall apart.
fakesteve saying jaedong would win that game 90% of the time is still merely conjecture and is not appropriate criteria for an admin decision of this magnitude
I think it should have extended to a best of 7 match up. Neither player was prepared for that and the power outage would have had a lesser effect on the series. They should have been given a chance to talk to each other to decide on the maps that would be played and in what order. If they could not agree on what maps they wanted then the maps should have been decided on by a third party. Seems like the fairest way in my book.
On January 24 2010 10:35 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: if jaedong had at any time abandoned his 7oclock base in favor of attacking or roaming the map or defending his other expansion from a drop or what have you, that's an opportunity for flash to kill 7. it would require jaedong to be slightly negligent, and for flash to control flawlessly, both of which are not impossibilities. the game being 90% in jaedong's favor as i've said is based on the advantage that jaedong had, and the assumption that jaedong is not a hella bad player who would fall apart.
fakesteve saying jaedong would win that game 90% of the time is still merely conjecture and is not appropriate criteria for an admin decision of this magnitude
But do you think that he really needed the 7'o'clock base to win the game? It would've still been something like 4 base vs. 1 base after a couple minutes, even if Flash managed to kill 7 o clock.
I think Kespa made the best possible decision since Jaedong had an huge advantage that nobody can deny. Unfortunately, Flash's team and father got really pissed off (understandably) which delayed the next game for an hour and severely affected Flash's mental state. I think Flash would have played game 4 much better if there hadn't been such drama resulting from Kespa's decision. In fact, it was very possible for Flash to come back and win 3-2.
I think it should have extended to a best of 7 match up. Neither player was prepared for that and the power outage would have had a lesser effect on the series. They should have been given a chance to talk to each other to decide on the maps that would be played and in what order. If they could not agree on what maps they wanted then the maps should have been decided on by a third party. Seems like the fairest way in my book.
Why has this not been given more attention?
My guess is because there is no real precedent for it. I'd agree it would have been an okay solution to help the players gain composure (particularly Flash) to change it to Bo7, but to change it on the spot would be ridiculous, particularly if there was no way the players could know such an action was possible.
On January 24 2010 10:35 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: if jaedong had at any time abandoned his 7oclock base in favor of attacking or roaming the map or defending his other expansion from a drop or what have you, that's an opportunity for flash to kill 7. it would require jaedong to be slightly negligent, and for flash to control flawlessly, both of which are not impossibilities. the game being 90% in jaedong's favor as i've said is based on the advantage that jaedong had, and the assumption that jaedong is not a hella bad player who would fall apart.
fakesteve saying jaedong would win that game 90% of the time is still merely conjecture and is not appropriate criteria for an admin decision of this magnitude
But do you think that he really needed the 7'o'clock base to win the game? It would've still been something like 4 base vs. 1 base after a couple minutes, even if Flash managed to kill 7 o clock.
just as flash could have possibly won the game, so could jaedong possibly win the game even if he lost 7. that's completely irrelevant
On January 24 2010 10:20 KwarK wrote: FakeSteve, I ran a few simulations in comparable situations and the game was about 20 seconds from ending in those. I don't think Flash had 10%. Flash couldn't hold off the units JD had at the time of the disc, let alone the ones he had 30 seconds later. Pure marines and medics simply cannot kill those numbers of ultralisks. Ever.
don't think i'm being rude or personal or anything, but your simulations have literally zero reflection on a professional game hahah
I believe I can accurately reflect the incomes of players. I know how many drones JD had at every base but 3. I know how many mineral patches Flash had. That tells me what kind of economy they were working with. Obviously I'm not JD and my opponent wasn't Flash. But could you at least agree that I can create an approximate reproduction of the economy in that game?
sure, but why do you think you can create a realistic approximation of the events that would take place had the blackout not happened?
Ok, so now we're happy I can create an accurate representation of what they were mining. In the first minute after the blackout, assuming JaeDong doesn't maynard to 1 or make any more drones at 3 or 7, JaeDong earns 1700 minerals and 1300 gas. He made the same in the second minute. By comparison, Flash earned 1600 minerals and 450 gas in the first minute and 1300 minerals and 300 gas in the second. It was at this point that his natural mined out (the first crystals had already disappeared in the vod).
I posit that the players being of comparable skill, such as JaeDong and Flash are, that economic difference, most notably the gas, is sufficient to end the game. So even if we ignore stuff like Flash being entirely ill equipped to fight defilers and ultralisks at the same time (which I disagree with) I still don't think it changes the fact that any D+ zerg on icc could have defeated Flash simply by making an ultralisk every 9 seconds.
On January 24 2010 10:35 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: if jaedong had at any time abandoned his 7oclock base in favor of attacking or roaming the map or defending his other expansion from a drop or what have you, that's an opportunity for flash to kill 7. it would require jaedong to be slightly negligent, and for flash to control flawlessly, both of which are not impossibilities. the game being 90% in jaedong's favor as i've said is based on the advantage that jaedong had, and the assumption that jaedong is not a hella bad player who would fall apart.
fakesteve saying jaedong would win that game 90% of the time is still merely conjecture and is not appropriate criteria for an admin decision of this magnitude
But do you think that he really needed the 7'o'clock base to win the game? It would've still been something like 4 base vs. 1 base after a couple minutes, even if Flash managed to kill 7 o clock.
just as flash could have possibly won the game, so could jaedong possibly win the game even if he lost 7. that's completely irrelevant
I don't think it is irrelevant. Your argument is that Flash could have won the game if Jaedong messed up and Flash killed 7oclock. I said that I still don't think Flash would have a chance even if he did kill it.
On January 24 2010 08:49 TeWy wrote: Could you please point out some examples of that Baseball thing ? I would like to know what they consider to be a "clear advantage".
The official rule of MLB is that a game can be called a win if a team is leading after the 5th inning and the game is cancelled:
However, the comissioner of MLB would have overruled this rule in the World Series if the game were called when the Phillies were up 2-1 on the Rays:
No shortened victory
The game became an official game after the fifth inning. Had umpires stopped it there, with the Phillies leading 2-1, the Phils could have been awarded their trophy.
Selig said that wouldn’t have happened. He said Game 5 will be a nine-inning game.
Thus, in MLB, the commissioner (Selig) would never "gift" a win to the team with the advantage - he would force the game to be played out until there was a definite winner.
On January 24 2010 10:20 KwarK wrote: FakeSteve, I ran a few simulations in comparable situations and the game was about 20 seconds from ending in those. I don't think Flash had 10%. Flash couldn't hold off the units JD had at the time of the disc, let alone the ones he had 30 seconds later. Pure marines and medics simply cannot kill those numbers of ultralisks. Ever.
don't think i'm being rude or personal or anything, but your simulations have literally zero reflection on a professional game hahah
I believe I can accurately reflect the incomes of players. I know how many drones JD had at every base but 3. I know how many mineral patches Flash had. That tells me what kind of economy they were working with. Obviously I'm not JD and my opponent wasn't Flash. But could you at least agree that I can create an approximate reproduction of the economy in that game?
sure, but why do you think you can create a realistic approximation of the events that would take place had the blackout not happened?
Well assuming both players used their resources to make units, the events are predictable. JaeDong makes ultralisks and Flash loses almost immediately. Bw is an economic game. Micro is an important factor but nobodies micro is that good.
you must be of the opinion that the game was 100% over at the time of the blackout. that opinion is wrong, and your simulation still has no relevance
Then why did KESPA give Julyzerg the win vs Bisu when it was 99.99% sure July had the game in the bag before Bisu disconnected?
Going by your logic, Bisu wasn't 100% out of the game (didn't GG) so he should have been awarded a regame, which he was not.
On January 24 2010 10:35 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: if jaedong had at any time abandoned his 7oclock base in favor of attacking or roaming the map or defending his other expansion from a drop or what have you, that's an opportunity for flash to kill 7. it would require jaedong to be slightly negligent, and for flash to control flawlessly, both of which are not impossibilities. the game being 90% in jaedong's favor as i've said is based on the advantage that jaedong had, and the assumption that jaedong is not a hella bad player who would fall apart.
fakesteve saying jaedong would win that game 90% of the time is still merely conjecture and is not appropriate criteria for an admin decision of this magnitude
But do you think that he really needed the 7'o'clock base to win the game? It would've still been something like 4 base vs. 1 base after a couple minutes, even if Flash managed to kill 7 o clock.
just as flash could have possibly won the game, so could jaedong possibly win the game even if he lost 7. that's completely irrelevant
I don't think it is irrelevant. Your argument is that Flash could have won the game if Jaedong messed up and Flash killed 7oclock. I said that I still don't think Flash would have a chance even if he did kill it.
So could you respond to that?
i really don't have the patience to lay out every single potential sequence of events that could lead to jaedong or flash winning. if that's what this conversation is gonna take, then i'll have to bow out
On January 24 2010 10:42 StarcraftMan wrote:Thus, in MLB, the commissioner (Selig) would never "gift" a win to the team with the advantage - he would force the game to be played out until there was a definite winner.
The difference being that "playing it out until there was a definite winner" isn't an option in this case - the options are declare a win or start over entirely. And if the game was, say, 6-1 in the 8th, and the choice was starting over from scratch or declaring the team with a significant if not definitive advantage the winner... you can sort of see why they might decide the way they did. It's going to be controversial either way, but there's definitely an argument to be made that it's the lesser of two evils.
On January 24 2010 10:35 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: if jaedong had at any time abandoned his 7oclock base in favor of attacking or roaming the map or defending his other expansion from a drop or what have you, that's an opportunity for flash to kill 7. it would require jaedong to be slightly negligent, and for flash to control flawlessly, both of which are not impossibilities. the game being 90% in jaedong's favor as i've said is based on the advantage that jaedong had, and the assumption that jaedong is not a hella bad player who would fall apart.
fakesteve saying jaedong would win that game 90% of the time is still merely conjecture and is not appropriate criteria for an admin decision of this magnitude
But do you think that he really needed the 7'o'clock base to win the game? It would've still been something like 4 base vs. 1 base after a couple minutes, even if Flash managed to kill 7 o clock.
just as flash could have possibly won the game, so could jaedong possibly win the game even if he lost 7. that's completely irrelevant
I don't think it is irrelevant. Your argument is that Flash could have won the game if Jaedong messed up and Flash killed 7oclock. I said that I still don't think Flash would have a chance even if he did kill it.
So could you respond to that?
i really don't have the patience to lay out every single potential sequence of events that could lead to jaedong or flash winning. if that's what this conversation is gonna take, then i'll have to bow out
I'd be satisfied if you could show even one reasonable way for Flash to win, other than "Jaedong takes a break and zozma starts playing instead".
On January 24 2010 10:20 KwarK wrote: FakeSteve, I ran a few simulations in comparable situations and the game was about 20 seconds from ending in those. I don't think Flash had 10%. Flash couldn't hold off the units JD had at the time of the disc, let alone the ones he had 30 seconds later. Pure marines and medics simply cannot kill those numbers of ultralisks. Ever.
don't think i'm being rude or personal or anything, but your simulations have literally zero reflection on a professional game hahah
I believe I can accurately reflect the incomes of players. I know how many drones JD had at every base but 3. I know how many mineral patches Flash had. That tells me what kind of economy they were working with. Obviously I'm not JD and my opponent wasn't Flash. But could you at least agree that I can create an approximate reproduction of the economy in that game?
sure, but why do you think you can create a realistic approximation of the events that would take place had the blackout not happened?
Well assuming both players used their resources to make units, the events are predictable. JaeDong makes ultralisks and Flash loses almost immediately. Bw is an economic game. Micro is an important factor but nobodies micro is that good.
you must be of the opinion that the game was 100% over at the time of the blackout. that opinion is wrong, and your simulation still has no relevance
Then why did KESPA give Julyzerg the win vs Bisu when it was 99.99% sure July had the game in the bag before Bisu disconnected?
Going by your logic, Bisu wasn't 100% out of the game (didn't GG) so he should have been awarded a regame, which he was not.
now, it's possible that my memory is fuzzy, but at worst i can remember something i posted earlier in the thread:
On January 24 2010 10:13 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: I would definitely agree that given the precedent set by terrible KeSPA decision-making over the last few years, their choice was definitely the path of least resistance. I am simply in favor of a rematch unless a winner is clearly already decided, to the point where the winning player is simply performing cleanup. that's a pretty different situation from this flash vs jaedong game
Wasn't Bisu vs July a hydra break vs forge FE wherein Bisu's nat was destroyed, as were most of his probes, and he had like four gateways in his main all taking hydra fire? that qualifies as a finished game in the cleanup phase
anyway, motbob's analysis of the game is spot on. i am without question in favor of a regame. i find the idea that it's "more unfair to jaedong" because his build only works once to be completely ludicrous. that one-in-ten chance of flash winning is enough to warrant a rematch
Let me get this straight. You're acknowledging the fact that Flash has only a 1/10 chance of winning the game and yet you're saying a rematch would be more fair to both players?
Are you honestly telling me that you would feel it is perfectly fair to you if you were in a game that you were going to win 90% of the time and the power outage occurs and the ref tells you to restart, say on even grounds 50:50 (disregarding all the map imba, since there's so many ppl crying over that it shouldn't be taken into consideration)??
For all of those people who continue to dwell on the "the game is not over until the fat lady sings" theory and claiming that it warrants a rematch, you have to understand the fact that, although this may be true, Flash's chances of coming back are slim (10%, 5%, 1%, what have you). If you think otherwise, well... very simply put, you're wrong. There's a reason why all progamers, judges, netizens (people who are likely much more qualified at judging the situation of game 3 than you are) all believe Jaedong had an insurmountable advantage.
Now that we have that point out of the the way.
Whatever decision made, there's going to be people who's unhappy about it. They can't satisfy everyone, the only thing Judges/Kespa could do was to choose the lesser of the two evils: 1. Give a rematch 2. Give Jaedong the win
This was the WHOLE POINT of the OP (I don't understand why so many ppl fail to get this).
If they choose to give a rematch, it would basically throw out that huge advantage (90% chance to win) Jaedong had at that point in the game and make him start from scratch on, let's assume a 50:50 basis (which is, of course not true due to map imba, but let's put that aside for now). In your honest opinion, is that fair to Jaedong??
If they choose to give Jaedong the win, it basically denies Flash the chance to come back (say 10% of the time). Obviously this isn't fair to Flash as well.
Now judging from those 2 decisions (choice 1 = screw JD 40% or choice 2 = screw Flash 10%) I assume most people would come to the conclusion that not allowing a rematch is the lesser of two evils here.
On January 24 2010 10:35 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: if jaedong had at any time abandoned his 7oclock base in favor of attacking or roaming the map or defending his other expansion from a drop or what have you, that's an opportunity for flash to kill 7. it would require jaedong to be slightly negligent, and for flash to control flawlessly, both of which are not impossibilities. the game being 90% in jaedong's favor as i've said is based on the advantage that jaedong had, and the assumption that jaedong is not a hella bad player who would fall apart.
fakesteve saying jaedong would win that game 90% of the time is still merely conjecture and is not appropriate criteria for an admin decision of this magnitude
But do you think that he really needed the 7'o'clock base to win the game? It would've still been something like 4 base vs. 1 base after a couple minutes, even if Flash managed to kill 7 o clock.
just as flash could have possibly won the game, so could jaedong possibly win the game even if he lost 7. that's completely irrelevant
I don't think it is irrelevant. Your argument is that Flash could have won the game if Jaedong messed up and Flash killed 7oclock. I said that I still don't think Flash would have a chance even if he did kill it.
So could you respond to that?
i really don't have the patience to lay out every single potential sequence of events that could lead to jaedong or flash winning. if that's what this conversation is gonna take, then i'll have to bow out
I'd be satisfied if you could show even one reasonable way for Flash to win, other than "Jaedong takes a break and zozma starts playing instead".
let's pretend Flash spends his remaining gas resources on vessels, one dropship, and a couple firebats to go along with his m&m production. you're telling me you would look at the game and be completely unable to see avenues Flash could take to win? all it would take is some sub-optimal defense from any sort of drop, and for Flash to preserve his remaining vessels. if at any point he got his army into a terrible position and it all died after he had exhausted his remaining resources, the game would be over. until that point it's just senseless to award a win to either player. give the dynamic pace of this game a little more credit.
this argument is completely nonsensical. are we really trying to put a percentage here on something that quite frankly is intangible? it is not the optimal situation but kespa had to make a decision and they chose the one that made the most sense. jaedong had a very significant lead in that game, replaying it would have thrown it away.
anyway, motbob's analysis of the game is spot on. i am without question in favor of a regame. i find the idea that it's "more unfair to jaedong" because his build only works once to be completely ludicrous. that one-in-ten chance of flash winning is enough to warrant a rematch
Let me get this straight. You're acknowledging the fact that Flash has only a 1/10 chance of winning the game and yet you're saying a rematch would be more fair to both players?
Are you honestly telling me that you would feel it is perfectly fair to you if you were in a game that you were going to win 90% of the time and the power outage occurs and the ref tells you to restart, say on even grounds 50:50 (disregarding all the map imba, since there's so many ppl crying over that it shouldn't be taken into consideration)??
For all of those people who continue to dwell on the "the game is not over until the fat lady sings" theory and claiming that it warrants a rematch, you have to understand the fact that, although this may be true, Flash's chances of coming back are slim (10%, 5%, 1%, what have you). If you think otherwise, well... very simply put, you're wrong. There's a reason why all progamers, judges, netizens (people who are likely much more qualified at judging the situation of game 3 than you are) all believe Jaedong had an insurmountable advantage.
Now that we have that point out of the the way.
Whatever decision made, there's going to be people who's unhappy about it. They can't satisfy everyone, the only thing Judges/Kespa could do was to choose the lesser of the two evils: 1. Give a rematch 2. Give Jaedong the win
This was the WHOLE POINT of the OP (I don't understand why so many ppl fail to get this).
If they choose to give a rematch, it would basically throw out that huge advantage (90% chance to win) Jaedong had at that point in the game and make him start from scratch on, let's assume a 50:50 basis (which is, of course not true due to map imba, but let's put that aside for now). In your honest opinion, is that fair to Jaedong??
If they choose to give Jaedong the win, it basically denies Flash the chance to come back (say 10% of the time). Obviously this isn't fair to Flash as well.
Now judging from those 2 decisions (choice 1 = screw JD 40% or choice 2 = screw Flash 10%) I assume most people would come to the conclusion that not allowing a rematch is the lesser of two evils here.
the interest of fairness should not account for projected probabilities or subjective assessments of something as intangible as an advantage in StarCraft. I am talking strictly from an administrative standpoint, and have ALREADY stated that given KeSPA's past incompetence they were basically shoehorned into making this 'lesser of two evils' decision. it is still a wrong decision, and it is KeSPA's failure for not setting a precedent on this over the last few years.
On January 24 2010 10:35 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: if jaedong had at any time abandoned his 7oclock base in favor of attacking or roaming the map or defending his other expansion from a drop or what have you, that's an opportunity for flash to kill 7. it would require jaedong to be slightly negligent, and for flash to control flawlessly, both of which are not impossibilities. the game being 90% in jaedong's favor as i've said is based on the advantage that jaedong had, and the assumption that jaedong is not a hella bad player who would fall apart.
fakesteve saying jaedong would win that game 90% of the time is still merely conjecture and is not appropriate criteria for an admin decision of this magnitude
But do you think that he really needed the 7'o'clock base to win the game? It would've still been something like 4 base vs. 1 base after a couple minutes, even if Flash managed to kill 7 o clock.
just as flash could have possibly won the game, so could jaedong possibly win the game even if he lost 7. that's completely irrelevant
I don't think it is irrelevant. Your argument is that Flash could have won the game if Jaedong messed up and Flash killed 7oclock. I said that I still don't think Flash would have a chance even if he did kill it.
So could you respond to that?
i really don't have the patience to lay out every single potential sequence of events that could lead to jaedong or flash winning. if that's what this conversation is gonna take, then i'll have to bow out
I'd be satisfied if you could show even one reasonable way for Flash to win, other than "Jaedong takes a break and zozma starts playing instead".
let's pretend Flash spends his remaining gas resources on vessels, one dropship, and a couple firebats to go along with his m&m production. you're telling me you would look at the game and be completely unable to see avenues Flash could take to win? all it would take is some sub-optimal defense from any sort of drop, and for Flash to preserve his remaining vessels. if at any point he got his army into a terrible position and it all died after he had exhausted his remaining resources, the game would be over. until that point it's just senseless to award a win to either player. give the dynamic pace of this game a little more credit.
Yes, because 30 seconds in JD runs over him with ultralisks lol. Flash has all his units camping a single base and is being outproduced. If he even tries to attack anywhere else JD just kills his min only. lol An ultralisk every 9 seconds. Assuming he decides not to mine gas at 1. You can't block that with marines lol.
why are you assuming that flash would sit there at his last base awaiting the death blow? see how your subjective analysis of a starcraft match is affecting your decision making when from an admin standpoint the only facts that are relevant are that the game was not over and a blackout occurred?
On January 24 2010 10:35 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: if jaedong had at any time abandoned his 7oclock base in favor of attacking or roaming the map or defending his other expansion from a drop or what have you, that's an opportunity for flash to kill 7. it would require jaedong to be slightly negligent, and for flash to control flawlessly, both of which are not impossibilities. the game being 90% in jaedong's favor as i've said is based on the advantage that jaedong had, and the assumption that jaedong is not a hella bad player who would fall apart.
fakesteve saying jaedong would win that game 90% of the time is still merely conjecture and is not appropriate criteria for an admin decision of this magnitude
But do you think that he really needed the 7'o'clock base to win the game? It would've still been something like 4 base vs. 1 base after a couple minutes, even if Flash managed to kill 7 o clock.
just as flash could have possibly won the game, so could jaedong possibly win the game even if he lost 7. that's completely irrelevant
I don't think it is irrelevant. Your argument is that Flash could have won the game if Jaedong messed up and Flash killed 7oclock. I said that I still don't think Flash would have a chance even if he did kill it.
So could you respond to that?
i really don't have the patience to lay out every single potential sequence of events that could lead to jaedong or flash winning. if that's what this conversation is gonna take, then i'll have to bow out
I'd be satisfied if you could show even one reasonable way for Flash to win, other than "Jaedong takes a break and zozma starts playing instead".
let's pretend Flash spends his remaining gas resources on vessels, one dropship, and a couple firebats to go along with his m&m production. you're telling me you would look at the game and be completely unable to see avenues Flash could take to win? all it would take is some sub-optimal defense from any sort of drop, and for Flash to preserve his remaining vessels. if at any point he got his army into a terrible position and it all died after he had exhausted his remaining resources, the game would be over. until that point it's just senseless to award a win to either player. give the dynamic pace of this game a little more credit.
Like I said- I CAN'T see anything Flash could have done. If I could, I would agree with you in this argument.
I'm not assuming he sits there awaiting a death blow. The death blow is about 20 seconds away at the blackout. You're assuming that he could survive a single wave of ultralisks with swarm using only marines and medics (and whatever irradiate his vessels had although they didn't have energy 10 secs before blackout). All your ideas about these clever things that Flash could do are as relevant as suggestions that Bisu could have rebuilt gateways and got storm vs July.
On January 24 2010 10:35 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: if jaedong had at any time abandoned his 7oclock base in favor of attacking or roaming the map or defending his other expansion from a drop or what have you, that's an opportunity for flash to kill 7. it would require jaedong to be slightly negligent, and for flash to control flawlessly, both of which are not impossibilities. the game being 90% in jaedong's favor as i've said is based on the advantage that jaedong had, and the assumption that jaedong is not a hella bad player who would fall apart.
fakesteve saying jaedong would win that game 90% of the time is still merely conjecture and is not appropriate criteria for an admin decision of this magnitude
But do you think that he really needed the 7'o'clock base to win the game? It would've still been something like 4 base vs. 1 base after a couple minutes, even if Flash managed to kill 7 o clock.
just as flash could have possibly won the game, so could jaedong possibly win the game even if he lost 7. that's completely irrelevant
I don't think it is irrelevant. Your argument is that Flash could have won the game if Jaedong messed up and Flash killed 7oclock. I said that I still don't think Flash would have a chance even if he did kill it.
So could you respond to that?
i really don't have the patience to lay out every single potential sequence of events that could lead to jaedong or flash winning. if that's what this conversation is gonna take, then i'll have to bow out
I'd be satisfied if you could show even one reasonable way for Flash to win, other than "Jaedong takes a break and zozma starts playing instead".
let's pretend Flash spends his remaining gas resources on vessels, one dropship, and a couple firebats to go along with his m&m production. you're telling me you would look at the game and be completely unable to see avenues Flash could take to win? all it would take is some sub-optimal defense from any sort of drop, and for Flash to preserve his remaining vessels. if at any point he got his army into a terrible position and it all died after he had exhausted his remaining resources, the game would be over. until that point it's just senseless to award a win to either player. give the dynamic pace of this game a little more credit.
Like I said- I CAN'T see anything Flash could have done. If I could, I would agree with you in this argument.
by that logic, how can Flash have possibly lost a bunch of vessels when he is the best terran on earth and preserving them is so important? it must not have happened
On January 24 2010 10:59 KwarK wrote: I'm not assuming he sits there awaiting a death blow. The death blow is about 20 seconds away at the blackout. You're assuming that he could survive a single wave of ultralisks with swarm using only marines and medics (and whatever irradiate his vessels had although they didn't have energy 10 secs before blackout). All your ideas about these clever things that Flash could do are as relevant as suggestions that Bisu could have rebuilt gateways and got storm vs July.
two completely different situations, and i especially don't have the patience to explain that to you
On January 24 2010 10:35 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: if jaedong had at any time abandoned his 7oclock base in favor of attacking or roaming the map or defending his other expansion from a drop or what have you, that's an opportunity for flash to kill 7. it would require jaedong to be slightly negligent, and for flash to control flawlessly, both of which are not impossibilities. the game being 90% in jaedong's favor as i've said is based on the advantage that jaedong had, and the assumption that jaedong is not a hella bad player who would fall apart.
fakesteve saying jaedong would win that game 90% of the time is still merely conjecture and is not appropriate criteria for an admin decision of this magnitude
But do you think that he really needed the 7'o'clock base to win the game? It would've still been something like 4 base vs. 1 base after a couple minutes, even if Flash managed to kill 7 o clock.
just as flash could have possibly won the game, so could jaedong possibly win the game even if he lost 7. that's completely irrelevant
I don't think it is irrelevant. Your argument is that Flash could have won the game if Jaedong messed up and Flash killed 7oclock. I said that I still don't think Flash would have a chance even if he did kill it.
So could you respond to that?
i really don't have the patience to lay out every single potential sequence of events that could lead to jaedong or flash winning. if that's what this conversation is gonna take, then i'll have to bow out
I'd be satisfied if you could show even one reasonable way for Flash to win, other than "Jaedong takes a break and zozma starts playing instead".
let's pretend Flash spends his remaining gas resources on vessels, one dropship, and a couple firebats to go along with his m&m production. you're telling me you would look at the game and be completely unable to see avenues Flash could take to win? all it would take is some sub-optimal defense from any sort of drop, and for Flash to preserve his remaining vessels. if at any point he got his army into a terrible position and it all died after he had exhausted his remaining resources, the game would be over. until that point it's just senseless to award a win to either player. give the dynamic pace of this game a little more credit.
You really have to read Kwark's thread.
You're arguing theorycrafting.
He put together a ton of facts and is arguing facts.
At time of blackout, Flash had 20 marines at his natural (fact) 12 marines / 9 medics at 9 expo (fact).
12 marines / 9 medics is NOT ENOUGH to take out 7, that's why Flash moved back (fact).
Flash would have to take those 20 marines and reinforce for a final push into 7.
That would have taken 30 seconds (fact).
In those 30 seconds, Jaedong doubles his army (fact). Between 17:00-18:00, Jaedong produced 20 lings / 4 ultras / 4 scourge / 2 defilers.
Give Jaedong another 2-3 ultras / 10 lings / 1 defiler within that 30 sec timeframe. This would give Jaedong 5-6 ultras / 20 lings / 3-4 defilers / 8 scourge (fact, they were flying in right before blackout) / 3 sunkens. Flash isn't breaking his 7 expo.
About dropships. Read that thread. Flash does not have time for a dropship maneuver. If he doesn't win the game in the next 30 seconds (which he can't), he won't win vs 5 gas zerg army that grows exponentially more than his own army.
If Flash gives Jaedong another minute. Jaedong is producing another 6 ultras and 1 group of lings. The more time you give Jaedong with that functional economy, the more you will be utterly crushed.
And KESPA already handed a player a victory when it was not 100%. I'm sure you remember Julyzerg vs Bisu.
Julyzerg went into Bisu's main, because Bisu's natural was warping in cannons that would have repelled July. Watch the replay. Bisu's natural was intact when Julyzerg side stepped and ninja'd his way into Bisu's main.
On January 24 2010 10:59 KwarK wrote: I'm not assuming he sits there awaiting a death blow. The death blow is about 20 seconds away at the blackout. You're assuming that he could survive a single wave of ultralisks with swarm using only marines and medics (and whatever irradiate his vessels had although they didn't have energy 10 secs before blackout). All your ideas about these clever things that Flash could do are as relevant as suggestions that Bisu could have rebuilt gateways and got storm vs July.
two completely different situations, and i especially don't have the patience to explain that to you
On January 24 2010 10:59 KwarK wrote: I'm not assuming he sits there awaiting a death blow. The death blow is about 20 seconds away at the blackout. You're assuming that he could survive a single wave of ultralisks with swarm using only marines and medics (and whatever irradiate his vessels had although they didn't have energy 10 secs before blackout). All your ideas about these clever things that Flash could do are as relevant as suggestions that Bisu could have rebuilt gateways and got storm vs July.
two completely different situations, and i especially don't have the patience to explain that to you
Grasping at straws.
lol
nobody ought to wonder why i never discuss this sorta thing on tl anymore
On January 24 2010 10:35 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: if jaedong had at any time abandoned his 7oclock base in favor of attacking or roaming the map or defending his other expansion from a drop or what have you, that's an opportunity for flash to kill 7. it would require jaedong to be slightly negligent, and for flash to control flawlessly, both of which are not impossibilities. the game being 90% in jaedong's favor as i've said is based on the advantage that jaedong had, and the assumption that jaedong is not a hella bad player who would fall apart.
fakesteve saying jaedong would win that game 90% of the time is still merely conjecture and is not appropriate criteria for an admin decision of this magnitude
But do you think that he really needed the 7'o'clock base to win the game? It would've still been something like 4 base vs. 1 base after a couple minutes, even if Flash managed to kill 7 o clock.
just as flash could have possibly won the game, so could jaedong possibly win the game even if he lost 7. that's completely irrelevant
I don't think it is irrelevant. Your argument is that Flash could have won the game if Jaedong messed up and Flash killed 7oclock. I said that I still don't think Flash would have a chance even if he did kill it.
So could you respond to that?
i really don't have the patience to lay out every single potential sequence of events that could lead to jaedong or flash winning. if that's what this conversation is gonna take, then i'll have to bow out
I'd be satisfied if you could show even one reasonable way for Flash to win, other than "Jaedong takes a break and zozma starts playing instead".
let's pretend Flash spends his remaining gas resources on vessels, one dropship, and a couple firebats to go along with his m&m production. you're telling me you would look at the game and be completely unable to see avenues Flash could take to win? all it would take is some sub-optimal defense from any sort of drop, and for Flash to preserve his remaining vessels. if at any point he got his army into a terrible position and it all died after he had exhausted his remaining resources, the game would be over. until that point it's just senseless to award a win to either player. give the dynamic pace of this game a little more credit.
Like I said- I CAN'T see anything Flash could have done. If I could, I would agree with you in this argument.
by that logic, how can Flash have possibly lost a bunch of vessels when he is the best terran on earth and preserving them is so important? it must not have happened
Sorry, I edited.
Anyway, losing vessels is an oversight that can happen in an instant, and there's a lot Zerg can do to cause that to happen. Flash needed some kind of massive, D- level oversight to even have a chance. And expecting that from the best Zerg player in the world doesn't qualify as a reasonable chance of victory.
On January 24 2010 10:56 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: why are you assuming that flash would sit there at his last base awaiting the death blow? see how your subjective analysis of a starcraft match is affecting your decision making when from an admin standpoint the only facts that are relevant are that the game was not over and a blackout occurred?
Answer to question one: He was moving his marines back to his base. If he continued attacking 7, it was a death blow anyway. See, but the game was over, just that the formality was not there. It's the same as bisu vs July to me, because all JD had to do was clean up. =)
On January 24 2010 11:04 mahnini wrote: because you aren't discussing it haha
yep, i'm purposefully avoiding it. i'm attempting to talk strictly from an admin decision standpoint, but people want to theorycraft. since reading theorycraft posts drives me into a frothing rage, i'm staying outta that part of this discussion hahahah
the people around here are a little too dedicated to accept a simple "because I said so"
On January 24 2010 10:59 KwarK wrote: I'm not assuming he sits there awaiting a death blow. The death blow is about 20 seconds away at the blackout. You're assuming that he could survive a single wave of ultralisks with swarm using only marines and medics (and whatever irradiate his vessels had although they didn't have energy 10 secs before blackout). All your ideas about these clever things that Flash could do are as relevant as suggestions that Bisu could have rebuilt gateways and got storm vs July.
two completely different situations, and i especially don't have the patience to explain that to you
Grasping at straws.
lol
nobody ought to wonder why i never discuss this sorta thing on tl anymore
On January 24 2010 11:04 mahnini wrote: because you aren't discussing it haha
yep, i'm purposefully avoiding it. i'm attempting to talk strictly from an admin decision standpoint, but people want to theorycraft. since reading theorycraft posts drives me into a frothing rage, i'm staying outta that part of this discussion hahahah
Different administrative styles occur though. KeSPa just happened to have a different one than yours. =/ Doesn't mean they were better or worse in this case.
Even a C- zerg would have been able to beat Flash there. Just mass ultras, 1a2a3a4a, and win. That's how simple it was. Flash had ONE mining base (a few minerals at his natural that were gonna run out in a few seconds) and Jaedong had 5 gas, moving up to 6...
Seriously. Even if Flash somehow ninjas 2 of Jaedong's bases, Jaedong will still be able to kill the mineral only of Flash, thus, ending the game.
On January 24 2010 10:59 KwarK wrote: I'm not assuming he sits there awaiting a death blow. The death blow is about 20 seconds away at the blackout. You're assuming that he could survive a single wave of ultralisks with swarm using only marines and medics (and whatever irradiate his vessels had although they didn't have energy 10 secs before blackout). All your ideas about these clever things that Flash could do are as relevant as suggestions that Bisu could have rebuilt gateways and got storm vs July.
two completely different situations, and i especially don't have the patience to explain that to you
Grasping at straws.
lol
nobody ought to wonder why i never discuss this sorta thing on tl anymore
Lol. The facts of the economy in that game are simple. By the time Flash had dropships to do dropship play JaeDongs army would be large enough to overrun the min only. Even if Flash didn't put any mnm in the dropships and stayed to defend, JaeDongs army was still big enough to overrun his min only. You cannot fight ultralisks under dark swarm with marines and medics, just like you can't fight mass archons with zerglings. It's not a question of player skill or options. When one player has lots of A and the other player can only make B, well, that's that.
You're theorycrafting while ignoring the income of the players. You're pretending Flash still had the income to even run his 8 rax and 2 starports (which kept minerals down when Flash was mining 18 mineral patches and 2 full gases). Flash doesn't have that anymore. His main gas depletes one minute after the blackout, his main is already mined out and at the time of the blackout his nat was down to 6 crystals. A minute later it's on 3. Half of his barracks go inactive. One of his starports goes down. Meanwhile JaeDong has just taken one.
You cannot ignore those economic facts. No matter what Flash wanted to do or tried to do, he was getting a moved by ultralisks and dying.
Edit: Ok, so you're not talking about the theorycraft at all. You're saying that Flash still had options simply because, like Bisu, gg hadn't been said when the game ended.
The way I'd approach this is imagining myself as both players. Knowing what I do about the game, I would be a LOT more pissed off as Jaedong if they called the regame than I would as Flash with Kespa's decision. A regame would have upped Flash's chances in the series much more significantly than the decision did for Jaedong.
This is only taking into account the decision itself of course. The mess that followed with Flash's father and team played a part in hurting Flash's chances for sure, but that can't really be taken into account. There would be no way to predict it, and even if there was, it would be unfair to punish one player because you know the other player's supporters would make a bigger deal out of it.
So just taking into account the decision. Imagine there was no fighting back, and after the ruling the games were allowed to continue almost immediately. Who's chances would have been hurt more one way or the other? Who would honestly be given the short straw? Flash should have prepared for the probability of a loss on game 3 that lead to a 1-2 score, he can play with that assumption. Jaedong on the other hand has nothing to fall back on. Even ignoring the injustice of losing a won game (say they were tied at that point, or he was even losing), what are his options? If you are trying to argue that in a perfect world we'd all have regames thats fine, but I personally am definitely in favor of Kespa allowing decision judging like this, because otherwise this situation would have been so much more fucked up. It would have REALLY hurt to watch and I'd have a hard time imagining the series as even being remotely fair.
Just think about it, Flash had to keep producing SVs so there is no way that he can even choose to make Dropships, not an option. Plus he have no tanks. Jaedong can keep streaming in Zerglings with Defilers and will still manage to take the Min natural that Flash have. Not to mention the Nydus Canal and Sunken Colonies at the 7. The game was too good for Jaedong to lose.
On January 24 2010 11:04 mahnini wrote: because you aren't discussing it haha
yep, i'm purposefully avoiding it. i'm attempting to talk strictly from an admin decision standpoint, but people want to theorycraft. since reading theorycraft posts drives me into a frothing rage, i'm staying outta that part of this discussion hahahah
Different administrative styles occur though. KeSPa just happened to have a different one than yours. =/ Doesn't mean they were better or worse in this case.
actually, there certainly is a better way. look at all this controversy, the high emotions, the feelings of ill will toward kespa and MBC. if kespa had actually implemented their rules properly (i think we all agree that their referee-on-site methods have had some catastrophic results), a forced regame in that situation would be completely acceptable. obviously no one would be completely satisfied with the decision, because nothing compares to the ideal - no blackout in the first place.
it's important for a governing body to have clear boundaries and a system in place for every situation. their decisions shouldn't rely on something as convoluted as an advantage in a StarCraft match. they ought to run the show as silently as possible.
On January 24 2010 11:04 mahnini wrote: because you aren't discussing it haha
yep, i'm purposefully avoiding it. i'm attempting to talk strictly from an admin decision standpoint, but people want to theorycraft. since reading theorycraft posts drives me into a frothing rage, i'm staying outta that part of this discussion hahahah
Different administrative styles occur though. KeSPa just happened to have a different one than yours. =/ Doesn't mean they were better or worse in this case.
actually, there certainly is a better way. look at all this controversy, the high emotions, the feelings of ill will toward kespa and MBC. if kespa had actually implemented their rules properly (i think we all agree that their referee-on-site methods have had some catastrophic results), a forced regame in that situation would be completely acceptable. obviously no one would be completely satisfied with the decision, because nothing compares to the ideal - no blackout in the first place.
it's important for a governing body to have clear boundaries and a system in place for every situation. their decisions shouldn't rely on something as convoluted as an advantage in a StarCraft match. they ought to run the show as silently as possible.
I, at least, would be pretty angry if they took away that win and Jaedong ended up losing the series because of it.
i would also like to point out that the theorycraft being presented by all of you is a result of incredible effort and devotion. the person who made the decision on-site did not have the time, resources, or sheer collective of minds that we have here to dissect every possibility and outcome.
On January 24 2010 11:04 mahnini wrote: because you aren't discussing it haha
yep, i'm purposefully avoiding it. i'm attempting to talk strictly from an admin decision standpoint, but people want to theorycraft. since reading theorycraft posts drives me into a frothing rage, i'm staying outta that part of this discussion hahahah
Different administrative styles occur though. KeSPa just happened to have a different one than yours. =/ Doesn't mean they were better or worse in this case.
actually, there certainly is a better way. look at all this controversy, the high emotions, the feelings of ill will toward kespa and MBC. if kespa had actually implemented their rules properly (i think we all agree that their referee-on-site methods have had some catastrophic results), a forced regame in that situation would be completely acceptable. obviously no one would be completely satisfied with the decision, because nothing compares to the ideal - no blackout in the first place.
it's important for a governing body to have clear boundaries and a system in place for every situation. their decisions shouldn't rely on something as convoluted as an advantage in a StarCraft match. they ought to run the show as silently as possible.
Again nobody would be happy with the decision just because you think it would be completely acceptable does not mean everybody is. Is a lose/lose either way for kespa.
On January 24 2010 07:17 Insight wrote: can someone give any valid argument why match point and ultimatum are terran favored? referring to statistics is so retarded cause there were maps where statistics were 90% in favor of certain race after 20ish games and it equalized later on, you'd need a good amount of games to be able to claim map imbalance based on statistics
number of games according to tl statistics: match point: TvZ: 10-6 ultimatum: TvZ: 6-3
anyone who knows ANYTHING AT ALL about statistics knows that you need a good sample for statistics to be valid source of information, 16 and 9 games is ridiculously small sample, it could've been 90% either way depending on which players happened to play for each race
match point is in my opinion zerg favored map because of architecture around mains and nats that make muta harass way more effective then it is on other maps. most tvz games I've seen on it were 2 hatch muta openings and terrans struggling to hold it off, specially at nat. there's also more space behind main mineral line in compare to other maps, space which is hard to maneuver around with mnm cause of mineral line itself and you can't shoot from between cc and minerals (not with enough marines anyway) so you can take advantage of it with mutas and snipe few extra scvs then you normally would have. there are also plenty of ridges everywhere for mutas to combat mnm force in the field if terran decides to fight muta harass by being aggressive. we've seen flash losing to some zerg whose name I can't remember earlier this season for this very reason. he went 2 hatch mutas and "abused" map architecture to gain advantage, and then just played a standard game after that, riding the advantage gained from said map flaw
ultimatum is also zerg favored in my opinion because of island expansions. zerg has much better mobility then terran as far as island hopping goes because of nydus canals and scourge. now add the fact there are 2 island expos right next to each main and you get exactly what happened in game 2. jaedong had fantastic build to take advantage of this but he made a huge mistake by using guardians offensively instead of defensively. had he used guardians to defend his 4 expos, all of them would've been virtually indestructible and you'd see the unstoppable flood of ultra/ling cover the map just as the upgrades kick in
even tho I'm flash fan, jaedong outplayed him today, winning metagame in every set (with the exception of above mentioned mistake in g2) and I'm fairly sure he would've won the series even if blackout didn't occur
Match Point and Ultimatum isn't like most maps where zerg can put up 2 lurkers at an expo and be done with it. On those maps, it is very difficult to defend the 3rd gas. 3rd gas on Match points and Ultimatum have multiple entrance. Ultimatum has a big choke going in. Ultimatum has only 1 double gas expo which is always at 7 so it is quite predictable for most terran. The 4th gas is even more difficult to secure on Match Point since it is so far way from the 3rd gas. Being a 2 player map, it is far easier to do proxy bunker rush against a zerg. 9 pool or earlier are much easier to defend since SCV can scout it right away.
For the last 2 minutes, Flash was unable to wipe out that expo with half the Jaedong troop count. What makes anyone think he could do it within 30 seconds with the odds stacked even more against him?
If Flash and Jaedong wait another minute. Flash is now up against 10 cows / 30 lings / 3-4 defilers / control group of scourge.
It gets worse and worse as Flash prolongs the game.
On January 24 2010 11:15 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: i would also like to point out that the theorycraft being presented by all of you is a result of incredible effort and devotion. the person who made the decision on-site did not have the time, resources, or sheer collective of minds that we have here to dissect every possibility and outcome.
However the theorycrafting that was eventually applied supports the on-site decision. I don't have any problems with an argument that the decision was "hasty"- we're concerned with the correctness of the decision.
On January 24 2010 11:12 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: (i think we all agree that their referee-on-site methods have had some catastrophic results)
Thing is, KeSPA has gotten into trouble because it *didn't* rely on the refs on the scene as well. Like, the Leta pp vs ppp thing - had the referee had the discretion to decide whether the typing was sufficient to warrant a DQ - as I believe he now does - then there's no problem there. I think even the official on the scene probably knew that was stupid. But he had no room in the rules to decide otherwise, so was forced to DQ a player for a really stupid reason. So trying to write rules that address every possible situation has its pitfalls as well.
The problem was not so much that the way the decision was made was bad; the problem was that there was no possible good decision. If the game had blacked out 30 seconds earlier, it's probably a regame and while no one is happy, it's hard to argue that it should be otherwise. If the game blacks out 30 seconds later, Jaedong is probably clearly in cleanup phase and there's little ambiguity that he should be given a win. It just so happens that the game went down in a very narrow window as the game was transitioning from "too close to call" to "clearly decided", such that any possible decision that could be made was controversial.
On January 24 2010 11:04 mahnini wrote: because you aren't discussing it haha
yep, i'm purposefully avoiding it. i'm attempting to talk strictly from an admin decision standpoint, but people want to theorycraft. since reading theorycraft posts drives me into a frothing rage, i'm staying outta that part of this discussion hahahah
Different administrative styles occur though. KeSPa just happened to have a different one than yours. =/ Doesn't mean they were better or worse in this case.
actually, there certainly is a better way. look at all this controversy, the high emotions, the feelings of ill will toward kespa and MBC. if kespa had actually implemented their rules properly (i think we all agree that their referee-on-site methods have had some catastrophic results), a forced regame in that situation would be completely acceptable. obviously no one would be completely satisfied with the decision, because nothing compares to the ideal - no blackout in the first place.
it's important for a governing body to have clear boundaries and a system in place for every situation. their decisions shouldn't rely on something as convoluted as an advantage in a StarCraft match. they ought to run the show as silently as possible.
I, at least, would be pretty angry if they took away that win and Jaedong ended up losing the series because of it.
of course you would, there's no way that everyone can be satisfied after something like a blackout happens. that is the entire reason the decision needs to be made as objectively as possible, and that's why there should have already been a precedent set that crash equals rematch. it's a matter of admin consistency & KeSPA owning the responsibility of administrating these leagues fairly without question.
On January 24 2010 11:04 mahnini wrote: because you aren't discussing it haha
yep, i'm purposefully avoiding it. i'm attempting to talk strictly from an admin decision standpoint, but people want to theorycraft. since reading theorycraft posts drives me into a frothing rage, i'm staying outta that part of this discussion hahahah
Different administrative styles occur though. KeSPa just happened to have a different one than yours. =/ Doesn't mean they were better or worse in this case.
actually, there certainly is a better way. look at all this controversy, the high emotions, the feelings of ill will toward kespa and MBC. if kespa had actually implemented their rules properly (i think we all agree that their referee-on-site methods have had some catastrophic results), a forced regame in that situation would be completely acceptable. obviously no one would be completely satisfied with the decision, because nothing compares to the ideal - no blackout in the first place.
it's important for a governing body to have clear boundaries and a system in place for every situation. their decisions shouldn't rely on something as convoluted as an advantage in a StarCraft match. they ought to run the show as silently as possible.
I, at least, would be pretty angry if they took away that win and Jaedong ended up losing the series because of it.
of course you would, there's no way that everyone can be satisfied after something like a blackout happens. that is the entire reason the decision needs to be made as objectively as possible, and that's why there should have already been a precedent set that crash equals rematch. it's a matter of admin consistency & KeSPA owning the responsibility of administrating these leagues fairly without question.
In that case, you're also arguing with the verdict in Bisu vs. July by saying that the rule should be "rematch" and that it should be applied every time.
And unless you respond to KwarK's last post, there's no way to say that Bisu vs. July was more decided compared to this game.
On January 24 2010 11:15 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: i would also like to point out that the theorycraft being presented by all of you is a result of incredible effort and devotion. the person who made the decision on-site did not have the time, resources, or sheer collective of minds that we have here to dissect every possibility and outcome.
I was 100% sure JD won the moment he held 7. I'd flatter myself to say I know a thing or 2 about going 2 base allin vs zerg, at least enough to recognise it when I see it. Part of the reason I'm posting so much about it now is because everyone was muted in that chat and there was a guy called TOP who could talk and was going on sick tilt because in his opinion Flash had it totally in the bag because he'd kept JaeDong on the ropes by throwing these massive mnm armies at him. Obviously TOP didn't know 2 base allins when he saw them and didn't understand that the big final last push may look impressive but Terran is mined out and has nothing to follow it up with. That really got under my skin because he had no idea about anything but I couldn't correct him so I started posting about it on tl.
Anyway, my point is that if I can recognise a 2 base allin when I see it then the retired progamers who Kespa uses to judge can too.
On January 24 2010 11:04 mahnini wrote: because you aren't discussing it haha
yep, i'm purposefully avoiding it. i'm attempting to talk strictly from an admin decision standpoint, but people want to theorycraft. since reading theorycraft posts drives me into a frothing rage, i'm staying outta that part of this discussion hahahah
Different administrative styles occur though. KeSPa just happened to have a different one than yours. =/ Doesn't mean they were better or worse in this case.
actually, there certainly is a better way. look at all this controversy, the high emotions, the feelings of ill will toward kespa and MBC. if kespa had actually implemented their rules properly (i think we all agree that their referee-on-site methods have had some catastrophic results), a forced regame in that situation would be completely acceptable. obviously no one would be completely satisfied with the decision, because nothing compares to the ideal - no blackout in the first place.
it's important for a governing body to have clear boundaries and a system in place for every situation. their decisions shouldn't rely on something as convoluted as an advantage in a StarCraft match. they ought to run the show as silently as possible.
For someone who doesn't want to theorycraft SC at all, you aren't afraid of theorycrafting real life at all. I know I for one would definitely not support the removal of on-site referees and I'm quite certain if a regame happened and Flash took the series, we'd see a TON of outrage over the rule (much like the outrage over the typing=dq rule).
For all their inadequacies (and oh god are there many), the referee system itself is not flawed in my eyes. I wasn't upset with the way July/Bisu was handled and I'm not upset with the way this was handled. Other games that were called a win or regame don't stand out as much for me so I'm not sure I could say I've supported every one of their decisions but that doesn't even really matter. You need referees. Even if one makes a bad decision, its worth it for the gains made by all the many good decisions. In an ideal world, things would be simpler. There wouldn't be ref's making judgment calls in basketball, or linespeople missing faults in tennis or whatever else. But we don't live in such a world, and in my opinion its worth it to have referee's for the fairness they help provide in 90% of cases. It would be demoralizing for players and for spectators to watch an instant regame rule implimented take away wins like Jaedong's third set, or even worse July's hydra break. And there is no objective way to decide where that line falls, so such a rule would be doomed from the start.
In the end, I'd rather be mad at a referee than the system itself. Referee's are actually pretty good scapegoats that keep the system running and the fans happy with the overall flow of the game. Having an unchangeable and arbitrary rule (that will admittedly always be unfair to the player with the advantage) on the other hand is considerably more damaging to the game in general as a spectator sport.
It's very simple, but so many people are just completely blinded by their fanboyism. I'd like to add that Flash had no way of actually defending his min only against JD's multiple defilers with his lack of vessels and tanks, and would have lost only moments later.
On January 24 2010 11:28 CTStalker wrote: flash had just secured a min-only base, and imo, the battle at 7 was gradually going his way. really lame decision
reading the last three pages; a useful talent toi have.
On January 24 2010 11:28 CTStalker wrote: flash had just secured a min-only base, and imo, the battle at 7 was gradually going his way. really lame decision
reading the last three pages; a useful talent toi have.
On January 24 2010 11:28 CTStalker wrote: flash had just secured a min-only base, and imo, the battle at 7 was gradually going his way. really lame decision
reading the last three pages; a useful talent toi have.
On January 24 2010 11:28 CTStalker wrote: flash had just secured a min-only base, and imo, the battle at 7 was gradually going his way. really lame decision
reading the last three pages; a useful talent toi have.
And watching the last 3 seconds of the vod helps.
i watched the whole vod
I refer you to KwarK's post at the top of page 13.
i think the logic of your explanation is persuasive as flash's chance to win game 3 . but hey like you say Fakesteve the winner had not yet been decided . if the choice is between regame or jd win , i can't see how you can go for a regame. and this isnt any i killed 1 probe i have the advantage case . people are giving you solid facts on how jaedong was at the lead and you reply with "the winner had not yet been decided" but if the choice is regame or jd win (dismissing flash win for obvious reason) a regame is absurd.
Just throwing a few more numbers out there. JaeDong could afford an ultralisk every 9 seconds (assuming he didn't mine gas at his 1 expansion). An ultralisk with 6 armour (which he had) can take 133 marine hits (9-6). If you give Flash 30 marines at the blackout (we saw 10 and he only had time for 2 new groups of 8 but whatever) then that means it takes longer than 9 seconds to kill an ultralisk. Even if Flash's entire army was firing upon JaeDong's units from the moment they hatched, JaeDong can produce ultralisks faster than Flash can kill them.
On January 24 2010 10:35 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: if jaedong had at any time abandoned his 7oclock base in favor of attacking or roaming the map or defending his other expansion from a drop or what have you, that's an opportunity for flash to kill 7. it would require jaedong to be slightly negligent, and for flash to control flawlessly, both of which are not impossibilities. the game being 90% in jaedong's favor as i've said is based on the advantage that jaedong had, and the assumption that jaedong is not a hella bad player who would fall apart.
fakesteve saying jaedong would win that game 90% of the time is still merely conjecture and is not appropriate criteria for an admin decision of this magnitude
But do you think that he really needed the 7'o'clock base to win the game? It would've still been something like 4 base vs. 1 base after a couple minutes, even if Flash managed to kill 7 o clock.
just as flash could have possibly won the game, so could jaedong possibly win the game even if he lost 7. that's completely irrelevant
I don't think it is irrelevant. Your argument is that Flash could have won the game if Jaedong messed up and Flash killed 7oclock. I said that I still don't think Flash would have a chance even if he did kill it.
So could you respond to that?
i really don't have the patience to lay out every single potential sequence of events that could lead to jaedong or flash winning. if that's what this conversation is gonna take, then i'll have to bow out
I'd be satisfied if you could show even one reasonable way for Flash to win, other than "Jaedong takes a break and zozma starts playing instead".
let's pretend Flash spends his remaining gas resources on vessels, one dropship, and a couple firebats to go along with his m&m production. you're telling me you would look at the game and be completely unable to see avenues Flash could take to win? all it would take is some sub-optimal defense from any sort of drop, and for Flash to preserve his remaining vessels. if at any point he got his army into a terrible position and it all died after he had exhausted his remaining resources, the game would be over. until that point it's just senseless to award a win to either player. give the dynamic pace of this game a little more credit.
Let's say JD dark swarms the min only and forces a lift and Flash isn't mining.
It's a very simple concept of choosing between two decisions where one player is going to lose less than the other, I don't understand how people don't get it unless they are just really fanboyish.
EDIT: All the good players are agreeing on JD having a huge advantages, take a hint people.
On January 24 2010 11:28 CTStalker wrote: flash had just secured a min-only base, and imo, the battle at 7 was gradually going his way. really lame decision
reading the last three pages; a useful talent toi have.
On January 24 2010 11:28 CTStalker wrote: flash had just secured a min-only base, and imo, the battle at 7 was gradually going his way. really lame decision
reading the last three pages; a useful talent toi have.
And watching the last 3 seconds of the vod helps.
i watched the whole vod
In the last 10 seconds of the vod Flash sees the defilers at 7 consuming stuff with his vessels but does not irradiate. ie no irradiate. In the last 3 seconds the minimap shows Flash's 10 marines and 8 medics going back to camp the mineral only. At this point we know for a fact that Flash has mined out his main completely, his natural is down to 7 crystals which are disappearing by the second and his main gas is going to deplete in 90 seconds.
Flash no longer has the minerals to continue producing with all of his barracks and is losing mineral patches by the second, down to the 6 at his min only. He is also about to run out of gas for dual starport. On the other side, JaeDong has just expanded to 1 (see the minimap again) and has ultralisks and swarm. Ultralisks and swarm weren't really seen properly in that game because JD never had the gas until the final battle. It's true that Flash was kind of keeping up with JD's pure ultralisk play while he was macroing off his 2 bases but that was when JD was on 3 gas. JD is now on 5 gas with a 6th coming while Flash is on half the mineral patches he was previously and is about to drop down to 1/3.
Flash has absolutely nothing that can fight swarmed ultralisks. He has one factory which has spent all game floating. He only has marines and 4 vessels with no energy. He has no economy and JD can produce an ultralisk every 9 seconds.
On January 24 2010 11:28 CTStalker wrote: flash had just secured a min-only base, and imo, the battle at 7 was gradually going his way. really lame decision
If by "secure" you mean "Going to be forced to lift whenever Jaedong decides to attack" you're absolutely correct.
Actually I don't agree much with the OP, although well written.
First of all I think you make way too many assumptions, and that's what wrong with this discussion to start with. Everyone wants to rationalize and reach an consensus on what to think about the game. Fact is that we can never say who would have won the game no matter how much we analyze the VOD. Many of the people analyzing the VOD and drawing conclusions aren't exactly good Starcraft players either or are relatively new to progaming and Starcraft gameplay (couple of years tops).
While I agree that JD had an advantage if you look at the game in a very non-dynamic way, it doesn't portray what could've happened in actual gameplay. Sometimes people seem to theorize too much and don't take into account players actions, their micro/macro, decisions etc.
Now: What if Flash had 2 dropships making/done in his base? It's not that unlikely considering the big map and he knows that he has to harass JD hard at this point. We saw two dropships in the game before as well. Considering also the fact that he didn't went tanks and mainly used his gas for his two starports, he definately had the gas to do it. Also, you assume that Flash was gonna go back to his 9 o clock expo and defend there. What if he was gonna regroup and engage 7 o clock again?
So, let's say that he gets two dropships with m&m and drops JD's main and 3 o clock for instance while at the same time engaging his 7 o clock with his m&m forces. This could easily be a big turning point in the game if that was the case. It can be very hard to defend 3 places at the same time for any player.
Also m&m are typically microed quite well by Flash. No one knows how a forthcoming battle at 7 o clock would have played out. Bottomline is that Flash is capable of doing these huge turnarounds in games consistently when you get the feeling that he is behind. It's like he says "alright, this is bullshit. I'm gonna kick ass now" and boom!
Just saying. It's not as clear cut as you make it seem and it will never be. Trying to reach an "objective" consensus through analysis is dead born imo. We will never know what could have happened and I think it's best to realize that.
First of all I think you make way too many assumptions
That's funny because...
What if Flash had 2 dropships making/done in his base? It's not that unlikely considering the big map and he knows that he has to harass JD hard at this point.
So, let's say that he gets two dropships with m&m and drops JD's main and 3 o clock for instance while at the same time engaging his 7 o clock with his m&m forces. This could easily be a big turning point in the game if that was the case.
We saw two dropships in the game before as well.
No we didn't.
Not to mention that you're completely disregarding all the analysis done by countless people today that concluded that Flash's economy was dry. Your entire post is far more speculative and revolves around more assumptions than the arguments that you have derided as having "too many assumptions".
On January 24 2010 11:04 mahnini wrote: because you aren't discussing it haha
yep, i'm purposefully avoiding it. i'm attempting to talk strictly from an admin decision standpoint, but people want to theorycraft. since reading theorycraft posts drives me into a frothing rage, i'm staying outta that part of this discussion hahahah
Different administrative styles occur though. KeSPa just happened to have a different one than yours. =/ Doesn't mean they were better or worse in this case.
actually, there certainly is a better way. look at all this controversy, the high emotions, the feelings of ill will toward kespa and MBC. if kespa had actually implemented their rules properly (i think we all agree that their referee-on-site methods have had some catastrophic results), a forced regame in that situation would be completely acceptable. obviously no one would be completely satisfied with the decision, because nothing compares to the ideal - no blackout in the first place.
it's important for a governing body to have clear boundaries and a system in place for every situation. their decisions shouldn't rely on something as convoluted as an advantage in a StarCraft match. they ought to run the show as silently as possible.
I, at least, would be pretty angry if they took away that win and Jaedong ended up losing the series because of it.
of course you would, there's no way that everyone can be satisfied after something like a blackout happens. that is the entire reason the decision needs to be made as objectively as possible, and that's why there should have already been a precedent set that crash equals rematch. it's a matter of admin consistency & KeSPA owning the responsibility of administrating these leagues fairly without question.
Ofc this has to be assessed on a case-to-case basis. It happens so seldom and each case is so unique that by just stating something like crash=rematch would be too unprecise. There would always be circumstances which would make the rule unfitting. It is much better to have the objective rule that kespa judges have the final word, and perhaps a framework of what they should take into consideration when making their decision.
The important thing out of an admin perspective is to make the most reasonable decision as possible in the least amount of time. That is precisely what they did, and given the situation kespa handled it well.
What didn't work however, was the respect for the decision. There has to be a mutual understanding that, whatever the judges decision is, then and there is not the place to disagree. It should be clear that if you are not content with the ruling, a formal complaint has to be handed in later. What Flash's dad and all others did, raising the commotion, was very disrespectful towards kespa, the audience, MBC, and not least, the players.
What if Flash had 2 dropships making/done in his base? It's not that unlikely considering the big map and he knows that he has to harass JD hard at this point.
So, let's say that he gets two dropships with m&m and drops JD's main and 3 o clock for instance while at the same time engaging his 7 o clock with his m&m forces. This could easily be a big turning point in the game if that was the case.
Not to mention that you're completely disregarding all the analysis done by countless people today that concluded that Flash's economy was dry.
We didn't see 2 dropships in the game before? My eyes must suck then.
No, I've read up on the analysis in all the threads, and I understand the situation but Starcraft is a dynamic game and things happen outside of strict theory.
The two dropships worked out so well the previous game because Jaedong only had speedlings that against Flash's early upgraded marines for the longest time (besides Flash's micro). This game he had defilers, and upgraded zerglings and ultralisks that matched Flash's upgrades.
On January 24 2010 11:44 Foucault wrote: Now: What if Flash had 2 dropships making/done in his base? It's not that unlikely considering the big map and he knows that he has to harass JD hard at this point. We saw two dropships in the game before as well. Considering also the fact that he didn't went tanks and mainly used his gas for his two starports, he definately had the gas to do it. Also, you assume that Flash was gonna go back to his 9 o clock expo and defend there. What if he was gonna regroup and engage 7 o clock again?
So, let's say that he gets two dropships with m&m and drops JD's main and 3 o clock for instance while at the same time engaging his 7 o clock with his m&m forces. This could easily be a big turning point in the game if that was the case. It can be very hard to defend 3 places at the same time for any player.
Flash didn't have the units. Flash didn't have the money for the units. Flash didn't have the mineral patches for the money for the units. If Flash moves a single marine from his min only he loses it 20 seconds after the blackout to JaeDongs 3 ultralisks and 2 defilers. If Flash concentrates every marine he has there, he still loses in 20 seconds after the blackout to JaeDongs 3 ultralisks and 2 defilers.
First of all I think you make way too many assumptions
That's funny because...
What if Flash had 2 dropships making/done in his base? It's not that unlikely considering the big map and he knows that he has to harass JD hard at this point.
So, let's say that he gets two dropships with m&m and drops JD's main and 3 o clock for instance while at the same time engaging his 7 o clock with his m&m forces. This could easily be a big turning point in the game if that was the case.
We saw two dropships in the game before as well.
No we didn't.
Not to mention that you're completely disregarding all the analysis done by countless people today that concluded that Flash's economy was dry.
We didn't see 2 dropships in the game before? My eyes must suck then.
No, I've read up on the analysis in all the threads, and I understand the situation but Starcraft is a dynamic game and things happen outside of strict theory.
The game can be unpredictable at times but it rarely violates the correlation between mineral income and unit production. It's that correlation that doomed Flash.
On January 24 2010 11:44 Foucault wrote: Actually I don't agree much with the OP, although well written.
First of all I think you make way too many assumptions, and that's what wrong with this discussion to start with. Everyone wants to rationalize and reach an consensus on what to think about the game. Fact is that we can never say who would have won the game no matter how much we analyze the replays. Many of the people analyzing the replays and drawing conclusions aren't exactly good Starcraft players either or are relatively new to progaming and Starcraft gameplay (couple of years tops).
While I agree that JD had an advantage if you look at the game in a very non-dynamic way, it doesn't portray what could've happened in actual gameplay. Sometimes people seem to theorize too much and don't take into account players actions, their micro/macro, decisions etc.
Now: What if Flash had 2 dropships making/done in his base? It's not that unlikely considering the big map and he knows that he has to harass JD hard at this point. We saw two dropships in the game before as well. Considering also the fact that he didn't went tanks and mainly used his gas for his two starports, he definately had the gas to do it. Also, you assume that Flash was gonna go back to his 9 o clock expo and defend there. What if he was gonna regroup and engage 7 o clock again?
So, let's say that he gets two dropships with m&m and drops JD's main and 3 o clock for instance while at the same time engaging his 7 o clock with his m&m forces. This could easily be a big turning point in the game if that was the case. It can be very hard to defend 3 places at the same time for any player.
Also m&m are typically microed quite well by Flash. No one knows how a forthcoming battle at 7 o clock would have played out. Bottomline is that Flash is capable of doing these huge turnarounds in games consistently when you get the feeling that he is behind. It's like he says "alright, this is bullshit. I'm gonna kick ass now" and boom!
Just saying. It's not as clear cut as you make it seem and it will never be. Trying to reach an "objective" consensus through analysis is dead born imo. We will never know what could have happened and I think it's best to realize that.
I'll go through this 1 last time.
At time of blackout Flash has (all supported by FACTS from the VOD):
- 12 Marines / 9 medics for Flash at 9 expo - 20 marines at natural - 5 vessels at 9 expo - 2 vessels or 2 dropships at natural (wasn't sure which unit but 100% 2 units exited the starport in Vod)
While engaging 7 expo with everything he had for 2:30 full minutes, why would he build dropships in the middle of it? He doesn't need dropships for that expo. He would have to be convinced that his attack on 7 was no longer going to work to actually go produce those 2 dropships. But then if he was convinced his attack was no longer going to work, why send another 20 marines in there?
If he did build 2 dropships. He would have had to load up his entire army at his natural (whatever was left) and do a 1 time attack on Jaedong 3 expo or main.
If you watch the last .1 second of the vod, he was moving his army back out again to reinforce the 9 expo. Clearly he wasn't loading up dropships. He doesn't have enough units to simultaneously defend 9 (with 12 marines) and go for an offensive.
Dropships don't make any sense.
2) What if Flash regroups his 20 marines + 12 marines + 9 medics + 7 vessels and attacks Jaedong?
This would have taken him 30 seconds to regroup + re-engage Jaedong. This is all facts.
Between 17:00-18:00 Jaedong adds 20 lings / 4 ultras / 4 scourge / 1-2 defilers PER MINUTE. So let's divide that by 2 and add those armies to what Jaedong currently has.
Every minute goes by, Flash produces exponentially LESS while Jaedong produces exponentially MORE.
Assuming Flash engages Jaedong at 7 one last time and that battle lasts 30 seconds minimum, Jaedong is adding ANOTHER 10 lings / 2 ultras / 1 defiler.
And considering the fact that Flash COULD NOT break down 7 with substantially less Jaedong troops, what makes you think this last push will do it?
Because he's "Flash"? That doesn't work when you're up against "Jaedong".
All Jaedong has to do is throw down 1-2 swarms in case Flash irradiates them and buys himself another 30 seconds. Another 30 seconds brings us another round of reinforcements.
3) What if Flash waits longer than 30 seconds? 1 minute?
Now he's up against 10 cows / 30 lings / 3-4 defilers / 12 scourge. It gets worse and worse.
On January 24 2010 11:44 Foucault wrote: Many of the people analyzing the VOD and drawing conclusions aren't exactly good Starcraft players either or are relatively new to progaming and Starcraft gameplay (couple of years tops).
Well everyone who actually is good at StarCraft that I have seen comment on this all agrees that Jaedong was in a very good spot and very close to winning the game. Some think it should have been a regame, but all agree that Jaedong was firmly ahead in the game.
it's important for a governing body to have clear boundaries and a system in place for every situation. their decisions shouldn't rely on something as convoluted as an advantage in a StarCraft match.
Agreed that there needs to be a clearly defined system for the situation. But if the system is "referee's decision to award to who they feel had the advantage", I think that's valid, and whatever the referee decides is fair, since by participating in the match the players have already agreed to abide by the ref. If KeSPA just made shit up on the spot, and there was absolutely no precident to awarding a win, then I agree that they fucked up huge, no matter what the advantage. I don't know which applies since I don't know the kespa rules.
There is a precedent for this. Kespa gave July a win over Bisu after a crashed game in which July's 2 hatch hydra broke Bisu's natural and tore down his gateways. The kespa rules are that it's ref's decision.
On January 24 2010 11:28 CTStalker wrote: flash had just secured a min-only base, and imo, the battle at 7 was gradually going his way. really lame decision
reading the last three pages; a useful talent toi have.
And watching the last 3 seconds of the vod helps.
i watched the whole vod
So did you not notice the 2 un irradiated defilers coming and flash moving to DEFEND his mineral expansion? I am going to guess not.
I'm going to translate a passage that Lee Seung Won wrote on his cyworld
Jaedong may be the best Zerg player in the world
But at 4 oclock, there was one hatchery almost dead with one drone
Not many people might know, but this was the biggest point Kespa constantly talked about
At the 7 oclock base, there is 2 gas you can eat, however one of the 2 is an assimilator
And there were no drones at that location
That means there were 2 bases Jaedong was running on
Flash was sending his command center to his Mineral Expansion...
Wait a second, Flash had a decently sized army (Incase you didn't know, we MBC also have the unit counter/resource reader like the other leagues, it's just that we don't stream it)
Jaedong on the otherhand, had 2 half dead ultralisks 9 Zerglings 4 Larvaes producing Zerglings and 1 Larvae making a defiler
Flash had more than 2 controls groups of marines in that moment
It makes me wonder...
If Flash had 30 more seconds, would he have won set 3
I know I'm sort-of adding fuel to the fire But I just thought adding in a commentator's point of view is great
On January 24 2010 12:25 koreasilver wrote: You translated it wrong. He clearly said "Jaedong was running on both his natural and main" which is 2 bases.
On January 24 2010 12:25 koreasilver wrote: You translated it wrong. He clearly said "Jaedong was running on both his natural and main" which is 2 bases.
whoops sorry lolll I didn't read 본진
And if you watch a video of the recorded game that was televised, not their "replay VOD" that didn't go all the way to when the blackout occurred, you would see that the bit of the game that went further contradicts what this commentator is saying.
I forgot to add "1 almost up" to that screenshot too. I think nytefish is right, the commentator is talking about the last big attack Flash did, 20 seconds before the blackout. It was an impressive attack and 2 ultralisks and a few great swarms held it off, killing a lot of marines. The commentator makes a strong case for Flash's last attack being viable. But we saw that attack. We saw the "30 more seconds" the commentator is talking about. JD destroyed Flash's army and Flash abandoned the attack and camped his mineral only.
On January 24 2010 12:31 MrHoon wrote: lol jeezes christ I just wanted to add this to the discussion not try and start a fucking flame war with you guys
chill out haha, I don't remember saying I agree with the commentator at all
Well the commentator is saying "anything could have happened in the next 30 seconds". That sounds like it hugely undermines JaeDong's win because it sounds like he's saying it wasn't over. The problem is he's not actually talking about the 30 seconds after the end of the game. That's a pretty huge omission and it's going to cause arguments because people just won't understand it.
Anything could have happened in those 30 seconds before the blackout. Fortunately we saw them all and JaeDong raped Flash's last army.
All in all it's hugely misleading to post it without the context.
How did this even happen? Did the commentator turn up late and only watch the replay they showed while Flash's dad was arguing backstage? Or did he leave early or what? Somehow he hasn't seen the game. This surprises me.
On January 24 2010 12:40 KwarK wrote: How did this even happen? Did the commentator turn up late and only watch the replay they showed while Flash's dad was arguing backstage? Or did he leave early or what? Somehow he hasn't seen the game. This surprises me.
Probably he stopped paying attention and then the blackout woke him up, so he only saw the replay. Something like that.
In my simulation I gave JD the gas at 3 and 3 drones mining. It was the only base I didn't have any info on but I felt that less than half a drone per crystal was probably about right.
On January 24 2010 08:49 TeWy wrote: Could you please point out some examples of that Baseball thing ? I would like to know what they consider to be a "clear advantage".
If a game is rained out before play begins, it is rescheduled for a later date. If it has already begun and rain falls, several scenarios are used to determine the need to resume play: * If the game has completed the top half of the 5th inning and the home team is ahead, the game can be deemed an official game. The home team is declared the winner, and the game officially counts in standings. * If the game has completed the bottom half of the 5th inning and either team is ahead, the game can be deemed an official game. The leading team is declared the winner, and the game officially counts in standings. * If the game has completed the 5th inning, and the teams are tied, or if the game is a playoff game, the game is considered suspended, and the resumption of the game is scheduled for a future date (usually the following day). The game picks up from where it left off. * If neither of the previous three scenarios apply, the game can not be deemed official. The umpire declares "No Game," and a make-up of the game is scheduled for a future date. The statistics compiled during the rained out game are not counted.
Except Bud Selig, the commissioner of MLB, clearly stated if the game were called when the Phillies were up 2-1 on the Rays after the 5th inning, that MLB would have overruled this:
No shortened victory
The game became an official game after the fifth inning. Had umpires stopped it there, with the Phillies leading 2-1, the Phils could have been awarded their trophy.
Selig said that wouldn’t have happened. He said Game 5 will be a nine-inning game.
You see, even in MLB, the commissioner has the sense to not "gift" the win to a particular team, despite that team having an advantage when the game was cancelled.
Everyone and KESPa needs to read this post.
But when we're talking about a score of 50-1 and there are only a few minutes left in the baseball game, I start to question whether a rematch is really the best policy.
To be nitpicky: there's no "few minutes" left in baseball. Bottom of the ninth, 2 outs, no batters on base and the team with 1 point COULD still win, unlike games with time where scoring 49 points is actually impossible in a few minutes.
[Jaedong] overcame unfavorable maps and the best TvZ player ever [...]
Funny, because for the last two years, it was Flash's TvZ that was getting him knocked out of almost every league. Having a hot 3-month streak in the matchup does make you "the best TvZ player ever."
[Jaedong] overcame unfavorable maps and the best TvZ player ever [...]
Funny, because for the last two years, it was Flash's TvZ that was getting him knocked out of almost every league. Having a hot 3-month streak in the matchup does make you "the best TvZ player ever."
Well, to be fair, a hot 3-month streak is basically the basis for oov being called the "best TvZ player ever" prior to Flash.
He also holds the highest v Z ELO peak ever.
It depends on your criteria I guess.
Prior to this series his TvZ did indeed look quite invincible.
Edit: Although reading your post again, I'm not sure what you're arguing. Did you mean "doesn't"?
On January 24 2010 12:37 Avidkeystamper wrote: blegh
UNLIKE HIM LOLOLOL!!!
Kwark man =[ Why you do this to me?
When I saw your post I hit quote immediately. The words literally changed in front of my eyes as your ninja edit took effect. So I deliberately faked the quote with the words that had previously been there.
Seriously guys you are missing the whole point of that controversy...... It doesn't matter whether he had 30 marines or 3 or whether jaedong had 30 ultras and Defilers Its the fact that Flash was mentally struck due to incident that occured. Even though the player is Flash, NO player in the world can deal with that and just move on as if nothing happened, it will screw his mind up so hard he won't notice it.. i get pissed when a probe does happy laps around my natural base imagine how losing a game in a finals like that must of felt?
Do you possibly think Flash can play at his best with a strong positive approach? No obviously he can't and saying he has to deal with it is not fair.
On January 24 2010 13:28 unionbank wrote: Seriously guys you are missing the whole point of that controversy...... It doesn't matter whether he had 30 marines or 3 or whether jaedong had 30 ultras and Defilers Its the fact that Flash was mentally struck due to incident that occured. Even though the player is Flash, NO player in the world can deal with that and just move on as if nothing happened, it will screw his mind up so hard he won't notice it.. i get pissed when a probe does happy laps around my natural base imagine how losing a game in a finals like that must of felt?
Do you possibly think Flash can play at his best with a strong positive approach? No obviously he can't and saying he has to deal with it is not fair.
Whatever you want to talk about, the argument in this thread has been about whether to play a rematch or to award Jaedong the win for a while now.
On January 24 2010 11:33 pvzvt wrote: i think the logic of your explanation is persuasive as flash's chance to win game 3 . but hey like you say Fakesteve the winner had not yet been decided . if the choice is between regame or jd win , i can't see how you can go for a regame. and this isnt any i killed 1 probe i have the advantage case . people are giving you solid facts on how jaedong was at the lead and you reply with "the winner had not yet been decided" but if the choice is regame or jd win (dismissing flash win for obvious reason) a regame is absurd.
hey, i have definitely supported the idea that jaedong is at a massive advantage at that point. i'm merely saying that KeSPA failed to establish a precedent on these issues, and that a blanket "always rematch" rule is far more objective, and should be the route the governing body takes
i have also said that given the circumstances, KeSPA was absolutely forced to give the game to jaedong, because that precedent has not been set. i haven't said that jaedong wasn't at a huge advantage, and i haven't said that KeSPA realistically could have made a different decision. I'm definitely of the opinion that they should have, simply because it's better to begin this sort of thing late than not do it at all. I'm really just musing about the gigantic hole KeSPA has dug itself into.
On January 24 2010 12:22 KwarK wrote: Commentator completely ignores the fact there were two defilers there that had both just consumed a few lings each.
i just have to revisit this because i feel like you're overlooking something critical, if i'm off base then i'll just trust you on it but:
we're talking about two control groups of marines here. part of how i see flash potentially winning this game is using what he has on hand to feint attacks at 7. i thought you weren't considering this possibility earlier as well, and you saying that he has energy on his defilers as if that magically means he can go out and kill flash is more evidence that you're not really considering how flash would likely have played from the point of the blackout onward.
now again, i must state that i don't think the decision made by KeSPA should consider what i'm about to say AT ALL
two groups of marines and three vessels is more than enough to keep jaedong pinned and defending 7oclock. that's why i said flash would need flawless execution, he'd need to be able to reliably preserve that army until such time that his new min only is fueling his barracks, which will happen much faster than jaedong's economic advantage at that point would kick in and overwhelm the terran forces
this is why i asked you earlier why you thought flash would simply camp out at his new base and await the deathblow. there's many many ways to make a base vulnerable without attacking it, and many many ways to safely harass a well-defended expo to buy yourself a few extra units so you can attack more than one location. they're all immeasurably difficult, but this is Flash we're talking about. it is definitely within his capabilities & knowledge to secure that game. just veeeeeery very unlikely
I think the whole difference in the game is that you have no replay, you have no supply and no actual mineral count to base off of except what the commentators decided to look at. Even at the end, whether those ultras survived is also the question, the amount of health they had left. Even if Jaedong was taking another expansion, it was far from being done, and further from being mined.
The way the game went was left with what Flash could do. I really don't like people quoting other people on their opinion of the advantage and using it to convince people that Jaedong was massively ahead. Do they know the game better or does Flash know the game better? Seeing the way he gged in the first game, the very fact that he stayed in the game means to me he believed he still had a fighting chance.
And the argument that Jaedong had showed his build on this map and therefore was at a disadvantage is a flawed argument simply because both players obviously had specific BOs and both showed them. The racial imbalance on fighting spirit is very debatable because it is based off of past games, which do not number in the thousands, but simply in tens. Can't even law of large numbers that shit.
Even given all that I'm pretty torn between a rematch and the given victory, but I pretty much believe a rematch should be given in all situations of this type. Being a competition I think the trend should go towards allowing players to compete instead of taking away someone's ability to compete.
Creatonism I fully agree with you & must mention that the game in question occured on Odd Eye rather than Fighting Spirit before the hounds have at your tender flesh
On January 24 2010 12:22 KwarK wrote: Commentator completely ignores the fact there were two defilers there that had both just consumed a few lings each.
i just have to revisit this because i feel like you're overlooking something critical, if i'm off base then i'll just trust you on it but:
we're talking about two control groups of marines here. part of how i see flash potentially winning this game is using what he has on hand to feint attacks at 7. i thought you weren't considering this possibility earlier as well, and you saying that he has energy on his defilers as if that magically means he can go out and kill flash is more evidence that you're not really considering how flash would likely have played from the point of the blackout onward.
now again, i must state that i don't think the decision made by KeSPA should consider what i'm about to say AT ALL
two groups of marines and three vessels is more than enough to keep jaedong pinned and defending 7oclock. that's why i said flash would need flawless execution, he'd need to be able to reliably preserve that army until such time that his new min only is fueling his barracks, which will happen much faster than jaedong's economic advantage at that point would kick in and overwhelm the terran forces
this is why i asked you earlier why you thought flash would simply camp out at his new base and await the deathblow. there's many many ways to make a base vulnerable without attacking it, and many many ways to safely harass a well-defended expo to buy yourself a few extra units so you can attack more than one location. they're all immeasurably difficult, but this is Flash we're talking about. it is definitely within his capabilities & knowledge to secure that game. just veeeeeery very unlikely
That commentator was talking about the possible events of the last 30 seconds of the vod having not seen them. He's talking about Flash's last big push before retreating to his 3rd to camp and saying it might work. Those two control groups of marines got raped after the commentator stopped watching for whatever reason. An ultralisk with irradiate was completely surrounded by marines and they all died. I was pointing out the defilers simply because he was wrong about how many there were and I was surprised by this.
Flash didn't have those 2 groups of marines in the vod (he had 10 marines and 8 medics running to the min only). His main had mined out a minute before and his mineral only wasn't yet mining (it was being maynarded to). Unless Flash had been macroing badly he would have been missing rounds of production. Flash is very good and I'm sure could think up tricks I'd never imagine. But the question that keeps coming back to me is "with what minerals"?
well, one can reasonably assume that flash has at least two groups at any given time. if you've played any tvz, which i'm sure you have, you either have a lotta marines, or a lotta money, regardless of how many barracks you have. jaedong would have had to wait until units hatched before attacking anywhere, and before that time, Flash can put pressure on 7. it's the same situation whether he has those 20 marines or not, just with 20 extra marines. he can do the same things, and will, cuz a direct confrontation in the middle of the map is the last thing he wants
then we're back to 10% of the time even a player of jaedong's caliber guesses wrong and loses the advantage
Flash wouldn't have to wait for the min only to start feeding his barracks, it would begin right away. But how many of those barracks could he feed off of 6 mineral patches, especially considering he needs to pay for fresh vessels constantly? Of course he could pressure the southwest base, but there was no way that base would break. With three sunkens, a nydus, defilers, ultras, and lings, that base was impregnable when the blackout hit. If Flash pressured 7 he wouldn't get anything out of it. All it would do is expose his last mining base, which is why he's right in the middle of retreating before the game stopped. His chances weren't 90%, they were, as ret says, a tenth of a percent.
On January 24 2010 11:33 pvzvt wrote: i think the logic of your explanation is persuasive as flash's chance to win game 3 . but hey like you say Fakesteve the winner had not yet been decided . if the choice is between regame or jd win , i can't see how you can go for a regame. and this isnt any i killed 1 probe i have the advantage case . people are giving you solid facts on how jaedong was at the lead and you reply with "the winner had not yet been decided" but if the choice is regame or jd win (dismissing flash win for obvious reason) a regame is absurd.
hey, i have definitely supported the idea that jaedong is at a massive advantage at that point. i'm merely saying that KeSPA failed to establish a precedent on these issues, and that a blanket "always rematch" rule is far more objective, and should be the route the governing body takes
i have also said that given the circumstances, KeSPA was absolutely forced to give the game to jaedong, because that precedent has not been set. i haven't said that jaedong wasn't at a huge advantage, and i haven't said that KeSPA realistically could have made a different decision. I'm definitely of the opinion that they should have, simply because it's better to begin this sort of thing late than not do it at all. I'm really just musing about the gigantic hole KeSPA has dug itself into.
Objective doesn't have to mean blind. You can still make objective rulings on a case-to-case basis. It just have to be clear who has the final say, and that everybody accepts that. It is also important that there is a framework of criterias by which the decision is made, so there can be some form of check-up and a basis for complaints to rely on.
The best solution would be ofc to introduce some form of save states so that games can take off from where they were interrupted. I don´t have the technical skills to know if that is possible though.
On January 24 2010 11:33 pvzvt wrote: i think the logic of your explanation is persuasive as flash's chance to win game 3 . but hey like you say Fakesteve the winner had not yet been decided . if the choice is between regame or jd win , i can't see how you can go for a regame. and this isnt any i killed 1 probe i have the advantage case . people are giving you solid facts on how jaedong was at the lead and you reply with "the winner had not yet been decided" but if the choice is regame or jd win (dismissing flash win for obvious reason) a regame is absurd.
hey, i have definitely supported the idea that jaedong is at a massive advantage at that point. i'm merely saying that KeSPA failed to establish a precedent on these issues, and that a blanket "always rematch" rule is far more objective, and should be the route the governing body takes
i have also said that given the circumstances, KeSPA was absolutely forced to give the game to jaedong, because that precedent has not been set. i haven't said that jaedong wasn't at a huge advantage, and i haven't said that KeSPA realistically could have made a different decision. I'm definitely of the opinion that they should have, simply because it's better to begin this sort of thing late than not do it at all. I'm really just musing about the gigantic hole KeSPA has dug itself into.
Objective doesn't have to mean blind. You can still make objective rulings on a case-to-case basis. It just have to be clear who has the final say, and that everybody accepts that. It is also important that there is a framework of criterias by which the decision is made, so there can be some form of check-up and a basis for complaints to rely on.
The best solution would be ofc to introduce some form of save states so that games can take off from where they were interrupted. I don´t have the technical skills to know if that is possible though.
except then it relies on the discretion of the referee. here we have myself, idra, and several other trustable names saying flash could have won that game. we all agree its an advantage. games shouldn't be awarded for an advantage. how can kespa reliably assure that the ref will make the correct decision? is it really better to rely on the referee making the decision, when their game knowledge doesn't compare to the players, and the general public will without a doubt be torn over the decision? it puts unnecessary stress on the referee, and gives people a target on which to place the blame. it's a terrible system.
On January 24 2010 13:44 Creationism wrote: I think the whole difference in the game is that you have no replay, you have no supply and no actual mineral count to base off of except what the commentators decided to look at. Even at the end, whether those ultras survived is also the question, the amount of health they had left. Even if Jaedong was taking another expansion, it was far from being done, and further from being mined.
The way the game went was left with what Flash could do. I really don't like people quoting other people on their opinion of the advantage and using it to convince people that Jaedong was massively ahead. Do they know the game better or does Flash know the game better? Seeing the way he gged in the first game, the very fact that he stayed in the game means to me he believed he still had a fighting chance.
And the argument that Jaedong had showed his build on this map and therefore was at a disadvantage is a flawed argument simply because both players obviously had specific BOs and both showed them. The racial imbalance on fighting spirit is very debatable because it is based off of past games, which do not number in the thousands, but simply in tens. Can't even law of large numbers that shit.
Even given all that I'm pretty torn between a rematch and the given victory, but I pretty much believe a rematch should be given in all situations of this type. Being a competition I think the trend should go towards allowing players to compete instead of taking away someone's ability to compete.
so if you were playing a 20 minute game in a tournament like this in game 3 on a terran favored map (70% correct?) and actually winning with a build that would only work once you wouldn't be pist if you had to do a rematch? Think about it Flash is just doing standard 1 rax fe as expected while jaedong did 3 hatch before pool into fast ultra which is way different and riskier. Do you really think if they rematched jaedong could/would do that same build? He would be at a disadvantage because he had that build specifically in mind for that game and would have been utter bullshit if they had to re it.
Now while I was rooting for jaedong I unlike most people look at this through 2 different views. For starters I do know that for Flash he may have had a chance (a very small one mind you) but he still thought he had a chance or he was just hoping Jaedong would fuck up and he would be able to win who knows but it would be more devestating for jaedong if there was a re as what would he do? 2 hatch muta all in? Yeah thats awesome because of MBC's stupid computers Jaedong has to do that strategy or lose as what else can he do? He can't do that 3 hatch before pool Flash wouldn't allow that so again think of it in Jaedongs perspective as well not just flash's. While I do think this was the best decision I do hate how its a lose/lose either way as had they said Re I would be surprised if Jaedong somehow won considering the map and he would have to do some different strategy.
That game was epic and I still after watching the end of the vod, the threads with why it looked like flash was going to lose I still hold to Kespa's decision. It just sucks it had to happen in game 3 why couldn't it have happened in game 1 or something its very ironic it happens in the best game of the series so far T_T.
I'd like to add that quite a few people are saying the players' opinions ought to be taken into account, and whether there should be a rematch should be up to the players themselves. I think this is a bad idea. And by bad I mean horrible.
If you are JD, and asked to take a rematch:
Say yes, you are basically screwing yourself out of a win, and if you go on to lose, you will be known as the guy who threw it all away. More realistically, you can't even guarantee you will ever get to another major finals in the future. You've managed to survive all kinds of cheese, weird strats, straight up play, continual harass, doom drops, sucky maps - you don't wade through gallons of nerd blood to give away games you have basically won.
Say no, you will be branded as a massive douche by fanboys.
Reverse applies for flash, too.
In the case of disagreement, it's the worst case scenario as you will get fanboy riots all over the place, and kespa still has to be called in.
Perhaps this way is for the best. The little fanboy inside each of us doesn't really care who won last night. We can keep on believing our beloved champion is the best. You could say everyone loses, but you could just as well say everyone is a winner in your heart.
On January 24 2010 11:33 pvzvt wrote: i think the logic of your explanation is persuasive as flash's chance to win game 3 . but hey like you say Fakesteve the winner had not yet been decided . if the choice is between regame or jd win , i can't see how you can go for a regame. and this isnt any i killed 1 probe i have the advantage case . people are giving you solid facts on how jaedong was at the lead and you reply with "the winner had not yet been decided" but if the choice is regame or jd win (dismissing flash win for obvious reason) a regame is absurd.
hey, i have definitely supported the idea that jaedong is at a massive advantage at that point. i'm merely saying that KeSPA failed to establish a precedent on these issues, and that a blanket "always rematch" rule is far more objective, and should be the route the governing body takes
i have also said that given the circumstances, KeSPA was absolutely forced to give the game to jaedong, because that precedent has not been set. i haven't said that jaedong wasn't at a huge advantage, and i haven't said that KeSPA realistically could have made a different decision. I'm definitely of the opinion that they should have, simply because it's better to begin this sort of thing late than not do it at all. I'm really just musing about the gigantic hole KeSPA has dug itself into.
Objective doesn't have to mean blind. You can still make objective rulings on a case-to-case basis. It just have to be clear who has the final say, and that everybody accepts that. It is also important that there is a framework of criterias by which the decision is made, so there can be some form of check-up and a basis for complaints to rely on.
The best solution would be ofc to introduce some form of save states so that games can take off from where they were interrupted. I don´t have the technical skills to know if that is possible though.
except then it relies on the discretion of the referee. here we have myself, idra, and several other trustable names saying flash could have won that game. we all agree its an advantage. games shouldn't be awarded for an advantage. how can kespa reliably assure that the ref will make the correct decision? is it really better to rely on the referee making the decision, when their game knowledge doesn't compare to the players, and the general public will without a doubt be torn over the decision? it puts unnecessary stress on the referee, and gives people a target on which to place the blame. it's a terrible system.
Yes, it does rely on the discretion of the referee, or preferably referees. That is why it is important to have criterias by which their rulings can be reviewed and allow for formal complaints. Of course wrong decisions can be made, and of course it puts some stress on the referee, especially in cases like this when a fair decision just can´t be made, but that is the role of any referee in any sport. The people making the calls will obviously have to have great insight into the game. Having a rule that says "hardware failure => rematch" is just too clumsy. It is bound to cause at least as much controversy as a bad ruling, and what happens to those games where there is a crash and the game is, in fact, obviously over but the player just hadn´t typed in gg yet?
In this specific case, the decision had to be reasonable enough as fast as possible, which I believe it was. The uncertainty of not knowing what will happen is horrific and should be avoided as much as possible, for the sake of the players. Afterwards, many agree on that it was a reasonable ruling. It didn´t do complete justice to Flash, but as stated earlier, this was a situation without a fair solution.
I doubt that this "overwhelming advantage" was apparent in its entirety to Flash and JD during the cutoff. They were limited to what they were seeing on their own POV.
The game never reached the point where Flash thought it was best to gg so this win had to be "given" by Kespa instead of being "earned" by JD.
Advantage != actual win unless you assume that both players would do so many things in the ideal manner which isn't the case 100% of the time.
On January 24 2010 11:33 pvzvt wrote: i think the logic of your explanation is persuasive as flash's chance to win game 3 . but hey like you say Fakesteve the winner had not yet been decided . if the choice is between regame or jd win , i can't see how you can go for a regame. and this isnt any i killed 1 probe i have the advantage case . people are giving you solid facts on how jaedong was at the lead and you reply with "the winner had not yet been decided" but if the choice is regame or jd win (dismissing flash win for obvious reason) a regame is absurd.
hey, i have definitely supported the idea that jaedong is at a massive advantage at that point. i'm merely saying that KeSPA failed to establish a precedent on these issues, and that a blanket "always rematch" rule is far more objective, and should be the route the governing body takes
i have also said that given the circumstances, KeSPA was absolutely forced to give the game to jaedong, because that precedent has not been set. i haven't said that jaedong wasn't at a huge advantage, and i haven't said that KeSPA realistically could have made a different decision. I'm definitely of the opinion that they should have, simply because it's better to begin this sort of thing late than not do it at all. I'm really just musing about the gigantic hole KeSPA has dug itself into.
Objective doesn't have to mean blind. You can still make objective rulings on a case-to-case basis. It just have to be clear who has the final say, and that everybody accepts that. It is also important that there is a framework of criterias by which the decision is made, so there can be some form of check-up and a basis for complaints to rely on.
The best solution would be ofc to introduce some form of save states so that games can take off from where they were interrupted. I don´t have the technical skills to know if that is possible though.
except then it relies on the discretion of the referee. here we have myself, idra, and several other trustable names saying flash could have won that game. we all agree its an advantage. games shouldn't be awarded for an advantage. how can kespa reliably assure that the ref will make the correct decision? is it really better to rely on the referee making the decision, when their game knowledge doesn't compare to the players, and the general public will without a doubt be torn over the decision? it puts unnecessary stress on the referee, and gives people a target on which to place the blame. it's a terrible system.
In fact I completely believe that games ending due to unexpected stoppages should be awarded based on advantages, even not overwhelming ones. There are a few cases in baseball and soccer where matches were called at its current score before the final time due to circumstances that forbid further playing. There are distinct rules, official ones, that decide whether or not a game is called or canceled. Advantages are reason enough to call games because "potential comebacks" are speculative by nature, no more likely (probably less likely in fact), than the winning team simply continuing its superior performance and closing the game. If a soccer game is at 2:1 at the 70 minute mark and for some reason you can't play anymore (earthquake/tornado/etc), the game is CALLED and the leading team is declared the winner. These incidents are fortunately rare, but advantages are unambiguously translated into victory. As much as we would like to see the losing team score 2 goals in the last 20 minutes and win, that is no basis to nullify the result of the first 70 minutes of the game, which is a definitive lead and therefore superior performance by the leading team.
To call a rematch is not fair in any means because it nullifies the performance of the canceled match. The leading team or winning player has played up to the point of stoppage and has proven to be the better performer in the game. Anything could happen IF the stoppage of play does not occur, but since it DID occur there is no way for us to predict the outcome. Therefore, it makes no difference whether or not the losing team has a good chance of coming back or not, they are losing now, they lost the game.
If the Costa Rican soccer team played against Brazil, and scored a goal in the first minute, and then a meteor strikes the pitch and ruins the field, Costa Rica WINS. I don't care if Brazil is a far superior team (no offense to Costa Rica soccer fans, I'm Chinese and you guys beat us in the 2002 World Cup), and IF there was no meteor Brazil would've certainly won, it doesn't change the factor that after one minute of play, Costa Rica is winning, and since the game must end, Costa Rica wins the entire game.
Stoppages suck, nobody wants them, but when they happen you can't change history. The decision should be the fairest possible, and rematch of anything other than a STRICT TIE is extremely unfair to the winning team. Even if it was a terrible player against Flash, and Flash SOMEHOW manages to put himself in a distinctive disadvantageous position at the point of stoppage, the no name player deserves the win because he has performed better up to the point of stoppage. Everything else beyond the stoppage is PURE SPECULATION and carries no weight whatsoever.
Almost the entire starcraft community agrees that Jaedong had an advantage (overwhelming or not) at the blackout time. Therefore, regardless of "comeback potential" or "it's flash" or "it's jaedong", the leading team wins. That's how it works in all sports, and if the starcraft community wants to treat itself like a legit e-sport, it should follow the same logical convention.
i'm curious if kespa ASKED jaedong if he wanted to re-game. and i wonder if given the choice, would jaedong have chosen to re-game rather than take a victory in this fashion. As a jaedong fan i'm a little dissapointed jaedong didn't stand up and refuse to take a win this way. I know he can't be 100% satisfied, i know as a fan I'm not 100% satisfied with this victory. but then i think of how I'd feel if he re-game'd and lost... i might feel kind of robbed then. but if jaedong really wanted to prove he was the best, i think he should have refused to take the win, beaten flash in the re-game, then went on to win the MSL in a really convincing fashion.. (or even if he lost the re-game he could of gone on to win game 4 & 5)
On January 24 2010 15:17 stk01001 wrote: i'm curious if kespa ASKED jaedong if he wanted to re-game. and i wonder if given the choice, would jaedong have chosen to re-game rather than take a victory in this fashion. As a jaedong fan i'm a little dissapointed jaedong didn't stand up and refuse to take a win this way. I know he can't be 100% satisfied, i know as a fan I'm not 100% satisfied with this victory. but then i think of how I'd feel if he re-game'd and lost... i might feel kind of robbed then. but if jaedong really wanted to prove he was the best, i think he should have refused to take the win, beaten flash in the re-game, then went on to win the MSL in a really convincing fashion.. (or even if he lost the re-game he could of gone on to win game 4 & 5)
Must disagree with u here. If Jaedong thougt he would win why give away a lead its not his fault. And Im against letting the player decide these ackward moment. It would be unfair switch the burden to the player and put him in a even harder spot.
I just saw the MSL finals. At the time of the black-out, Jaedong had the advantage.
By the way guys, the MSL or MBC TV has nothing to do with this. The decision to give the game to Jaedong came from the Kespa, which rules over both the MSL and the OSL. The MSL won't lose credibility or sponsors because of this.
Also, a power outage is usually very unlikely but it is something that happens, like rain at a baseball finals, or a major crash in a car race. Good players are those who can overcome this kind of event and prove to be mentally strong to continue forward. Flash played very bad in the last game and we could see he was totally overrun by the events. Jaedong kept his cool and beat him with a very standard play.
I can compare this to a hockey game, when you lose 1-2 after 2 periods and you disagree with the referee's call. In that situation, a good team will cope with the situation and work in the third period to win 3-2. At some point you need to accept your situation even if you don't agree, and keep moving forward.
I think Jaedong proved to be a big surprise since I think most people were expecting Flash to win. Jaedong was definitely the dominant player in all four games, except for Flash's double dropship at game 2 that did a ridiculous amount of damage.
Props to Jaedong, and congratulations to Flash for 1st place in OSL and 2nd place in MSL! A rematch would be great too!
a regame would have meant not only taking away the advant agefrom JD, but he would have been behind, because of how that map works, the Z had to go for a specific build, while the T could play normal and react to the Z's build. JD revealed his build and did well, but probably his ultra rush wouldnt have worked twice and i doubt he had a secondary gameplan, just in case
On January 24 2010 13:44 Creationism wrote: I think the whole difference in the game is that you have no replay, you have no supply and no actual mineral count to base off of except what the commentators decided to look at. Even at the end, whether those ultras survived is also the question, the amount of health they had left. Even if Jaedong was taking another expansion, it was far from being done, and further from being mined.
The way the game went was left with what Flash could do. I really don't like people quoting other people on their opinion of the advantage and using it to convince people that Jaedong was massively ahead. Do they know the game better or does Flash know the game better? Seeing the way he gged in the first game, the very fact that he stayed in the game means to me he believed he still had a fighting chance.
And the argument that Jaedong had showed his build on this map and therefore was at a disadvantage is a flawed argument simply because both players obviously had specific BOs and both showed them. The racial imbalance on fighting spirit is very debatable because it is based off of past games, which do not number in the thousands, but simply in tens. Can't even law of large numbers that shit.
Even given all that I'm pretty torn between a rematch and the given victory, but I pretty much believe a rematch should be given in all situations of this type. Being a competition I think the trend should go towards allowing players to compete instead of taking away someone's ability to compete.
so if you were playing a 20 minute game in a tournament like this in game 3 on a terran favored map (70% correct?) and actually winning with a build that would only work once you wouldn't be pist if you had to do a rematch? Think about it Flash is just doing standard 1 rax fe as expected while jaedong did 3 hatch before pool into fast ultra which is way different and riskier. Do you really think if they rematched jaedong could/would do that same build? He would be at a disadvantage because he had that build specifically in mind for that game and would have been utter bullshit if they had to re it.
Now while I was rooting for jaedong I unlike most people look at this through 2 different views. For starters I do know that for Flash he may have had a chance (a very small one mind you) but he still thought he had a chance or he was just hoping Jaedong would fuck up and he would be able to win who knows but it would be more devestating for jaedong if there was a re as what would he do? 2 hatch muta all in? Yeah thats awesome because of MBC's stupid computers Jaedong has to do that strategy or lose as what else can he do? He can't do that 3 hatch before pool Flash wouldn't allow that so again think of it in Jaedongs perspective as well not just flash's. While I do think this was the best decision I do hate how its a lose/lose either way as had they said Re I would be surprised if Jaedong somehow won considering the map and he would have to do some different strategy.
That game was epic and I still after watching the end of the vod, the threads with why it looked like flash was going to lose I still hold to Kespa's decision. It just sucks it had to happen in game 3 why couldn't it have happened in game 1 or something its very ironic it happens in the best game of the series so far T_T.
I can honestly say that I would not be pissed if Flash was winning n had to rematch due to a blackout and even LOSING the rematch. I would not be pissed at all. Actually, I would think thats proper competition. I don't think the spirit of competition is EVER to take away a person's ability to compete and fight. If JD can do it once, he can do it again.
On January 24 2010 13:44 Creationism wrote: I think the whole difference in the game is that you have no replay, you have no supply and no actual mineral count to base off of except what the commentators decided to look at. Even at the end, whether those ultras survived is also the question, the amount of health they had left. Even if Jaedong was taking another expansion, it was far from being done, and further from being mined.
The way the game went was left with what Flash could do. I really don't like people quoting other people on their opinion of the advantage and using it to convince people that Jaedong was massively ahead. Do they know the game better or does Flash know the game better? Seeing the way he gged in the first game, the very fact that he stayed in the game means to me he believed he still had a fighting chance.
And the argument that Jaedong had showed his build on this map and therefore was at a disadvantage is a flawed argument simply because both players obviously had specific BOs and both showed them. The racial imbalance on fighting spirit is very debatable because it is based off of past games, which do not number in the thousands, but simply in tens. Can't even law of large numbers that shit.
Even given all that I'm pretty torn between a rematch and the given victory, but I pretty much believe a rematch should be given in all situations of this type. Being a competition I think the trend should go towards allowing players to compete instead of taking away someone's ability to compete.
so if you were playing a 20 minute game in a tournament like this in game 3 on a terran favored map (70% correct?) and actually winning with a build that would only work once you wouldn't be pist if you had to do a rematch? Think about it Flash is just doing standard 1 rax fe as expected while jaedong did 3 hatch before pool into fast ultra which is way different and riskier. Do you really think if they rematched jaedong could/would do that same build? He would be at a disadvantage because he had that build specifically in mind for that game and would have been utter bullshit if they had to re it.
Now while I was rooting for jaedong I unlike most people look at this through 2 different views. For starters I do know that for Flash he may have had a chance (a very small one mind you) but he still thought he had a chance or he was just hoping Jaedong would fuck up and he would be able to win who knows but it would be more devestating for jaedong if there was a re as what would he do? 2 hatch muta all in? Yeah thats awesome because of MBC's stupid computers Jaedong has to do that strategy or lose as what else can he do? He can't do that 3 hatch before pool Flash wouldn't allow that so again think of it in Jaedongs perspective as well not just flash's. While I do think this was the best decision I do hate how its a lose/lose either way as had they said Re I would be surprised if Jaedong somehow won considering the map and he would have to do some different strategy.
That game was epic and I still after watching the end of the vod, the threads with why it looked like flash was going to lose I still hold to Kespa's decision. It just sucks it had to happen in game 3 why couldn't it have happened in game 1 or something its very ironic it happens in the best game of the series so far T_T.
I can honestly say that I would not be pissed if Flash was winning n had to rematch due to a blackout and even LOSING the rematch. I would not be pissed at all. Actually, I would think thats proper competition. I don't think the spirit of competition is EVER to take away a person's ability to compete and fight. If JD can do it once, he can do it again.
I didn't say if it was flash. I said if it was YOU in the position for xxx amount of money. I doubt you would say "yeah lets rematch even though now you know my build I just did so I have to do something more, sure its favored for my opponents race". No just no you wouldn't but since you will never be (nor me or anyone else here) you'll say "nah I would still rematch" but I bet if it happened you wouldn't if you were given the choice.
On note to the guy who just saw the MSL I do have to say most people were saying Flash was going to 3-0 3-1 jaedong if jaedong was lucky. Its why I was really really hoping Jaedong would win just because people tend to forget how good Jaedong really is and I am glad he proves again why he is still considered the best player
On January 24 2010 11:33 pvzvt wrote: i think the logic of your explanation is persuasive as flash's chance to win game 3 . but hey like you say Fakesteve the winner had not yet been decided . if the choice is between regame or jd win , i can't see how you can go for a regame. and this isnt any i killed 1 probe i have the advantage case . people are giving you solid facts on how jaedong was at the lead and you reply with "the winner had not yet been decided" but if the choice is regame or jd win (dismissing flash win for obvious reason) a regame is absurd.
hey, i have definitely supported the idea that jaedong is at a massive advantage at that point. i'm merely saying that KeSPA failed to establish a precedent on these issues, and that a blanket "always rematch" rule is far more objective, and should be the route the governing body takes
i have also said that given the circumstances, KeSPA was absolutely forced to give the game to jaedong, because that precedent has not been set. i haven't said that jaedong wasn't at a huge advantage, and i haven't said that KeSPA realistically could have made a different decision. I'm definitely of the opinion that they should have, simply because it's better to begin this sort of thing late than not do it at all. I'm really just musing about the gigantic hole KeSPA has dug itself into.
Objective doesn't have to mean blind. You can still make objective rulings on a case-to-case basis. It just have to be clear who has the final say, and that everybody accepts that. It is also important that there is a framework of criterias by which the decision is made, so there can be some form of check-up and a basis for complaints to rely on.
The best solution would be ofc to introduce some form of save states so that games can take off from where they were interrupted. I don´t have the technical skills to know if that is possible though.
except then it relies on the discretion of the referee. here we have myself, idra, and several other trustable names saying flash could have won that game. we all agree its an advantage. games shouldn't be awarded for an advantage. how can kespa reliably assure that the ref will make the correct decision? is it really better to rely on the referee making the decision, when their game knowledge doesn't compare to the players, and the general public will without a doubt be torn over the decision? it puts unnecessary stress on the referee, and gives people a target on which to place the blame. it's a terrible system.
In both baseball and cricket, when the games are rained out after they've passed a certain threshold the team with the advantage wins. To say that there should always be a rematch doesn't make sense at all. What if the power cut happened when one player had already lost his army, half his base and had no minerals left but was delaying his GG, while the other player had a huge army? Would it be more fair in that case for there to be a rematch rather than having the ref decide? Seriously, you try and claim some great authority for yourself on this issue but I don't buy it. You may be a mod but always had a huge pro-terran bias. I don't see you as being 'trustable' (sic) on this issue at all.
Whether Flash was going to GG in two minutes or not after his natural mined out, even if he recognized it, it still hurts a ton more to have a game lost by referee choice (whether it was 99 percent or 99.99 percent or not) than by an actual loss. Sure its easy for us to say it shouldnt' have mattered, but being there and playing it is a whole different story.
It's flash's fault he caved in game 4 maybe, but the bo5 mental game is supposed to be based on the plays and the players, not on equipment failures or referee calls: he was put in a situation which no other player had to deal with before, and shouldn't have to deal with.
i don't have any beef with the call (all the previous bisu v july and july v rainbow games should've been called ,in my opinion), but to say that the impact it had on game 4 is flash's fault, is pretty ridiculous.
I'm interested to see what winner/loser interview has to say.
In both baseball and cricket, when the games are rained out after they've passed a certain threshold the team with the advantage wins. To say that there should always be a rematch doesn't make sense at all.
Again, you are misinformed about baseball - specifically, the MLB. MLB will play out the remainder of a game in the World Series and not "gift" a team that is leading after the 5th inning even if that game is cancelled, as Bud Selig, the commissioner of MLB has said:
No shortened victory
The game became an official game after the fifth inning. Had umpires stopped it there, with the Phillies leading 2-1, the Phils could have been awarded their trophy.
Selig said that wouldn’t have happened. He said Game 5 will be a nine-inning game.
My God, Fakesteve, I cannot believe that you admit that Flash had less than a 10% chance of winning yet should have been granted a rematch. I cannot believe that you wanted to take Jaedong's earned advantage away from him. That just seems unconscionable to me.
There's honestly no point in arguing with me about this. I'm actually a little pissed at you. :o
In both baseball and cricket, when the games are rained out after they've passed a certain threshold the team with the advantage wins. To say that there should always be a rematch doesn't make sense at all.
Again, you are misinformed about baseball - specifically, the MLB. MLB will play out the remainder of a game in the World Series and not "gift" a team that is leading after the 5th inning even if that game is cancelled, as Bud Selig, the commissioner of MLB has said:
The game became an official game after the fifth inning. Had umpires stopped it there, with the Phillies leading 2-1, the Phils could have been awarded their trophy.
Selig said that wouldn’t have happened. He said Game 5 will be a nine-inning game.
OK i was misinformed about baseball. Cricket definitely has a rain stoppage rule though which uses a complicated system to determine which team had the advantage. In any case, you're avoiding my other point. If one player has no minerals, no army and half their base destroyed and is about to GG but a power stoppage happens first would be a rematch in this case be more fair? Because if you have a blanket always-rematch rule that scenario could happen.
Well... I dunno as a ref I don't think I would really be comfortable making that decision. Of course Flash was behind and JD had a huge advantage... but there's always room for a massive mistake from JD. It was probably the right choice, but I always think that a game should be won by the players and not the refs.
Preach it Fakesteve. When you have people like Last Romantic, Plexa, Idra, Fakesteve and Chill all saying a rematch was the correct course of action... well then it's not as clear cut as people are pretending it is -_-
On January 24 2010 16:34 meeple wrote: Well... I dunno as a ref I don't think I would really be comfortable making that decision. Of course Flash was behind and JD had a huge advantage... but there's always room for a massive mistake from JD. It was probably the right choice, but I always think that a game should be won by the players and not the refs.
So, you would prefer a rematch even in the case where one player has nothing and is seconds away from GGing?
On January 24 2010 16:39 Vasoline73 wrote: Preach it Fakesteve. When you have people like Last Romantic, Plexa, Idra, Fakesteve and Chill all saying a rematch was the correct course of action... well then it's not as clear cut as people are pretending it is -_-
Well, at least everyone understands Jaedong had at least a 90% chance of winning that game, then it's fine with me. There is no correct choice to the rematch question anyways.
On January 24 2010 16:39 Vasoline73 wrote: Preach it Fakesteve. When you have people like Last Romantic, Plexa, Idra, Fakesteve and Chill all saying a rematch was the correct course of action... well then it's not as clear cut as people are pretending it is -_-
I wonder if they were willing to rematch if they were IN JD's position?
I'd bet a lot of money that they would take the win. It's always easy to say "rematch is fair" if the decision doesnt affect you at all.
On January 24 2010 02:15 samachking wrote: There is one argument that I feel has not been given enough attention. And there is one assumption that is assumed behind most of the arguments here. Is the fact that a regame would mean a 50-50 situation for both players,however, this is clearly untrue. If you paid attention to JD's builds this entire series and especially this set, they were all set up ( and brilliant mind games by JD I might say) to hard counter whatever JD predicted Flash would do, and he did a optimal build at each set in reaction.
The thing is, the build JD used and probably prepared 80% of the time for on this map is not one that can be repeated, its a one time build. JD went 3hat before pool, which is the 14cc equivalent for Z in this mu except its a lot more risky. To proceed by choosing to opt for a hidden base + Crazy Zerg style, its a extremely gimmicky build, and Flash could hardcounter it many times. Not only that JD had to comeback from a huge deficit after losing his 3rd, he played the game of his life and got ahead SIGNIFICANTLY. Not a 75% to 25% lead, but a 90% lead, he secured 4 bases with 5 gas while expoing to a 5th base while as Flash has been running on 6 mineral patches and 2 depleted geysers.He can only pump what? 3-4rax + 1port max with that econ?
You might say that Flash had a 10% chance of winning that game and therefore a re should occur. But consider this situation from JD's perspective, he has the game in the bag for sure and by the largest chance he has it won in the next 2 minutes, 9:1 ratio of winning, so you decide to give him a re and give Flash a 6/7:4 ratio of winning? How fair is that? Thats completely unfair and from a very basic game theory perspective by any rational standards completely unfair considering the mind games and the one time nature of builds used in bo5s. The build JD used is not one that can be repeated.
This is not a 50-50 situation as many suppose here. Flash gains a lot more from the re than JD, from an completely lost game to a game where you are ahead by reading the build your opponent prepared zealously for beforehand and can counter on a extremely imbalanced map(Odd eye is basically tiamat 2.0 due to the difficulty of securing your expos due to their structure, and the only option is a 2hat muta contain build, and if you watched zergs games vs MnM on that map they tend to opt for 2hat muta into 3base 4gas gaurd all ins).
This is a lose-lose situation for both players, but JD had A LOT more to lose from that re compared to Flash and Kespa have made the proper decision by considering the situation and props to them for that.
I confess to being a JD fan and I had a write up planned in case JD won the finals to confirm his Bonjwahood(which sadly has to be delayed due to this incident.). But if you analyze and rewatch the game with a cool head and consider the nature of mind games in bo5s you'll realize this is a rational choice.
I am reposting this because this is certainly not getting enough attention. A regame would fuck JD over way more than Flash, JD would have almost no chance of winning the regame, do you guys understand this? Taking away a won game to give him a regame where he has very low chances of winning due to his gimmick build revealed is pretty ridiculous.
On January 24 2010 16:39 Vasoline73 wrote: Preach it Fakesteve. When you have people like Last Romantic, Plexa, Idra, Fakesteve and Chill all saying a rematch was the correct course of action... well then it's not as clear cut as people are pretending it is -_-
I wonder if they were willing to rematch if they were IN JD's position?
I'd bet a lot of money that they would take the win. It's always easy to say "rematch is fair" if the decision doesnt affect you at all.
Kespa is supposed to make the most fair choice, for both the players and the sport as a whole. I really doubt that anyone who was arguing that it was fair would suddenly change their minds in JD's shoes.
Forcing a guaranteed loss on someone who had a chance to win (in my opinion) is much worse than forcing a rematch that the advantaged player in the previous can still win. It affects the series flow much less than making a random call that goes against all previous calls made by Kespa. If JD was the one losing the game when the blackout occurred I would still call for a rematch, even as a Flash fan, that's how I feel about it. Calling an unwon game in a finals is horrible and kills the dynamic much worse than a rematch, and there's plenty of people who agree.
On January 24 2010 16:39 Vasoline73 wrote: Preach it Fakesteve. When you have people like Last Romantic, Plexa, Idra, Fakesteve and Chill all saying a rematch was the correct course of action... well then it's not as clear cut as people are pretending it is -_-
I wonder if they were willing to rematch if they were IN JD's position?
I'd bet a lot of money that they would take the win. It's always easy to say "rematch is fair" if the decision doesnt affect you at all.
Kespa is supposed to make the most fair choice, for both the players and the sport as a whole. I really doubt that anyone who was arguing that it was fair would suddenly change their minds in JD's shoes.
Forcing a guaranteed loss on someone who had a chance to win (in my opinion) is much worse than forcing a rematch that the advantaged player in the previous can still win. It affects the series flow much less than making a random call that goes against all previous calls made by Kespa. If JD was the one losing the game when the blackout occurred I would still call for a rematch, even as a Flash fan, that's how I feel about it. Calling an unwon game in a finals is horrible and kills the dynamic much worse than a rematch, and there's plenty of people who agree.
But think about it this way... let's say JD had a 90% chance of winning (and many people, including ret, think it was even more than that). Giving a rematch would be making JD's 90% into a 50% and making Flash's 10% into a 50%. And due to various factors, it would probably be even less than 50% for JD (T>Z map, JD using a custom build that Flash would not let him do a second time). I don't see how this is more fair than making Flash's <10% into a 0%.
And I know games aren't determined by random chance so maybe 50% is not the right way of putting it but you know what I mean... it'd be removing JD's massive advantage and giving him a disadvantage instead. As opposed to just saying Flash's huge disadvantage is close enough to a loss.
On January 24 2010 16:39 Vasoline73 wrote: Preach it Fakesteve. When you have people like Last Romantic, Plexa, Idra, Fakesteve and Chill all saying a rematch was the correct course of action... well then it's not as clear cut as people are pretending it is -_-
I wonder if they were willing to rematch if they were IN JD's position?
I'd bet a lot of money that they would take the win. It's always easy to say "rematch is fair" if the decision doesnt affect you at all.
Forcing a guaranteed loss on someone who had a chance to win (in my opinion) is much worse than forcing a rematch that the advantaged player in the previous can still win.
This is a ridiculous position. What do you mean by "has a chance to win?" If the blackout had happened one minute later when, say, Flash's third cc was in the air with swarm underneath, Flash still has "a chance to win" at that point, right? What if it's ten seconds before that, and a game-ending attack is about to roll over Flash's third? Where do you draw the line between "has a chance to win" and "doesn't have a chance to win?"
It's a judgment call. And that's what the KeSPA refs made: a judgment call.
On January 24 2010 16:39 Vasoline73 wrote: Preach it Fakesteve. When you have people like Last Romantic, Plexa, Idra, Fakesteve and Chill all saying a rematch was the correct course of action... well then it's not as clear cut as people are pretending it is -_-
I wonder if they were willing to rematch if they were IN JD's position?
I'd bet a lot of money that they would take the win. It's always easy to say "rematch is fair" if the decision doesnt affect you at all.
Kespa is supposed to make the most fair choice, for both the players and the sport as a whole. I really doubt that anyone who was arguing that it was fair would suddenly change their minds in JD's shoes.
Forcing a guaranteed loss on someone who had a chance to win (in my opinion) is much worse than forcing a rematch that the advantaged player in the previous can still win. It affects the series flow much less than making a random call that goes against all previous calls made by Kespa. If JD was the one losing the game when the blackout occurred I would still call for a rematch, even as a Flash fan, that's how I feel about it. Calling an unwon game in a finals is horrible and kills the dynamic much worse than a rematch, and there's plenty of people who agree.
Jaedong would most likely have won game three. This is out of debate. Judging from their starting BO in game four (Jaedong totally predicting Flash's bunker rush in his least favourite map), Jaedong was in a very good shape to close up the series there. I don't think things would have been very different had we done the "fair" thing to do which restart the game from where they left off; Jaedong on the brink of taking Flash down.
Now. Gifting Jaedong the win in game three totally screwed up the series, but the series was unsalvagable the moment the game crashed anyhow. But you are fucking kidding yourself if you think that a rematch would have done both players any justice. The dynamic of the series would have been changed completely in Flash's favour. Which is what you wanted. Which is what you expected. Something you didn't get and have been bitching about ever since.
Flash was screwed over, but we all know that things probably wouldn't have been different, but you just want to take that 5% chance of "but things might have been different" and skew it so far in Flash's favour. Then you pretend that would have been "more fair" and "would have saved the dynamic of the series more". Bullshit. It would have wrecked the series, but would have had Flash in a solid position to take the series instead of on the brink of defeat. That's why you are so livid about it. Don't pretend otherwise.
On January 24 2010 16:39 Vasoline73 wrote: Preach it Fakesteve. When you have people like Last Romantic, Plexa, Idra, Fakesteve and Chill all saying a rematch was the correct course of action... well then it's not as clear cut as people are pretending it is -_-
I wonder if they were willing to rematch if they were IN JD's position?
I'd bet a lot of money that they would take the win. It's always easy to say "rematch is fair" if the decision doesnt affect you at all.
Forcing a guaranteed loss on someone who had a chance to win (in my opinion) is much worse than forcing a rematch that the advantaged player in the previous can still win.
This is a ridiculous position. What do you mean by "has a chance to win?" If the blackout had happened one minute later when, say, Flash's third cc was in the air with swarm underneath, Flash still has "a chance to win" at that point, right? What if it's ten seconds before that, and a game-ending attack is about to roll over Flash's third? Where do you draw the line between "has a chance to win" and "doesn't have a chance to win?"
It's a judgment call. And that's what the KeSPA refs made: a judgment call.
How is a ridiculous position at all when a bunch of people well respected in the community are pretty much saying exactly that? Just because you see it another way doesn't make it ridiculous at all. If the blackout happened a minute later there would obviously be more information to make a correct judgement call.
The "What if"'s could go on for ages. What if the VOD went on another 30 seconds and Flash sent troops to JD's 4 o clock expo and JD chose to defend instead of counter Flash's min only? What if the observer showed Flash's rally and there were dropships popping out right before the crash?
I just think you can't call the game based off this VOD to the point where a W/O is the obvious good choice. It wasn't Bisu v July on Bluestorm or anything and even that was a close call for Kespa.
Kespa gave Jaedong the benefit of the doubt that he could win game 3. Series turned 2-1 in his favor with Flash required to win both remaining matches. This happened as opposed to a regame which places the score at an even 1-1 with 3 games to play.
Good or bad, that call on game 3 seriously titled everything in Jaedong's favor and ended up tainting this finals whichever way games 4 or 5 would have gone.
On January 24 2010 16:39 Vasoline73 wrote: Preach it Fakesteve. When you have people like Last Romantic, Plexa, Idra, Fakesteve and Chill all saying a rematch was the correct course of action... well then it's not as clear cut as people are pretending it is -_-
I wonder if they were willing to rematch if they were IN JD's position?
I'd bet a lot of money that they would take the win. It's always easy to say "rematch is fair" if the decision doesnt affect you at all.
Kespa is supposed to make the most fair choice, for both the players and the sport as a whole. I really doubt that anyone who was arguing that it was fair would suddenly change their minds in JD's shoes.
Forcing a guaranteed loss on someone who had a chance to win (in my opinion) is much worse than forcing a rematch that the advantaged player in the previous can still win. It affects the series flow much less than making a random call that goes against all previous calls made by Kespa. If JD was the one losing the game when the blackout occurred I would still call for a rematch, even as a Flash fan, that's how I feel about it. Calling an unwon game in a finals is horrible and kills the dynamic much worse than a rematch, and there's plenty of people who agree.
Jaedong would most likely have won game three. This is out of debate. Judging from their starting BO in game four (Jaedong totally predicting Flash's bunker rush in his least favourite map), Jaedong was in a very good shape to close up the series there. I don't think things would have been very different had we done the "fair" thing to do which restart the game from where they left off; Jaedong on the brink of taking Flash down.
Now. Gifting Jaedong the win in game three totally screwed up the series, but the series was unsalvagable the moment the game crashed anyhow. But you are fucking kidding yourself if you think that a rematch would have done both players any justice. The dynamic of the series would have been changed completely in Flash's favour. Which is what you wanted. Which is what you expected. Something you didn't get and have been bitching about ever since.
Flash was screwed over, but we all know that things probably wouldn't have been different, but you just want to take that 5% chance of "but things might have been different" and skew it so far in Flash's favour. Then you pretend that would have been "more fair" and "would have saved the dynamic of the series more". Bullshit. It would have wrecked the series, but would have had Flash in a solid position to take the series instead of on the brink of defeat. That's why you are so livid about it. Don't pretend otherwise.
I support this 300%. I think I'll take this as my official opinion of the matter, all credit to letmelose.
On January 24 2010 16:39 Vasoline73 wrote: Preach it Fakesteve. When you have people like Last Romantic, Plexa, Idra, Fakesteve and Chill all saying a rematch was the correct course of action... well then it's not as clear cut as people are pretending it is -_-
I wonder if they were willing to rematch if they were IN JD's position?
I'd bet a lot of money that they would take the win. It's always easy to say "rematch is fair" if the decision doesnt affect you at all.
Kespa is supposed to make the most fair choice, for both the players and the sport as a whole. I really doubt that anyone who was arguing that it was fair would suddenly change their minds in JD's shoes.
Forcing a guaranteed loss on someone who had a chance to win (in my opinion) is much worse than forcing a rematch that the advantaged player in the previous can still win. It affects the series flow much less than making a random call that goes against all previous calls made by Kespa. If JD was the one losing the game when the blackout occurred I would still call for a rematch, even as a Flash fan, that's how I feel about it. Calling an unwon game in a finals is horrible and kills the dynamic much worse than a rematch, and there's plenty of people who agree.
Jaedong would most likely have won game three. This is out of debate. Judging from their starting BO in game four (Jaedong totally predicting Flash's bunker rush in his least favourite map), Jaedong was in a very good shape to close up the series there. I don't think things would have been very different had we done the "fair" thing to do which restart the game from where they left off; Jaedong on the brink of taking Flash down.
Now. Gifting Jaedong the win in game three totally screwed up the series, but the series was unsalvagable the moment the game crashed anyhow. But you are fucking kidding yourself if you think that a rematch would have done both players any justice. The dynamic of the series would have been changed completely in Flash's favour. Which is what you wanted. Which is what you expected. Something you didn't get and have been bitching about ever since.
Flash was screwed over, but we all know that things probably wouldn't have been different, but you just want to take that 5% chance of "but things might have been different" and skew it so far in Flash's favour. Then you pretend that would have been "more fair" and "would have saved the dynamic of the series more". Bullshit. It would have wrecked the series, but would have had Flash in a solid position to take the series instead of on the brink of defeat. That's why you are so livid about it. Don't pretend otherwise.
5% chance? You don't know what the fuck you're talking about, more like 50% chance because Flash got his 3rd up, not to mention Flash had 3 armor and 3 weapons upgraded. If Flash gged legitimately than there would of been no uproar from Flash's dad or his coach.
Flash had an advantage, but then Jaedong slightly was ahead economically later on in the game. We don't know how the results would of turned out because of the black out, an automatic win was bull shit.
On January 24 2010 16:39 Vasoline73 wrote: Preach it Fakesteve. When you have people like Last Romantic, Plexa, Idra, Fakesteve and Chill all saying a rematch was the correct course of action... well then it's not as clear cut as people are pretending it is -_-
I wonder if they were willing to rematch if they were IN JD's position?
I'd bet a lot of money that they would take the win. It's always easy to say "rematch is fair" if the decision doesnt affect you at all.
Kespa is supposed to make the most fair choice, for both the players and the sport as a whole. I really doubt that anyone who was arguing that it was fair would suddenly change their minds in JD's shoes.
Forcing a guaranteed loss on someone who had a chance to win (in my opinion) is much worse than forcing a rematch that the advantaged player in the previous can still win. It affects the series flow much less than making a random call that goes against all previous calls made by Kespa. If JD was the one losing the game when the blackout occurred I would still call for a rematch, even as a Flash fan, that's how I feel about it. Calling an unwon game in a finals is horrible and kills the dynamic much worse than a rematch, and there's plenty of people who agree.
Jaedong would most likely have won game three. This is out of debate. Judging from their starting BO in game four (Jaedong totally predicting Flash's bunker rush in his least favourite map), Jaedong was in a very good shape to close up the series there. I don't think things would have been very different had we done the "fair" thing to do which restart the game from where they left off; Jaedong on the brink of taking Flash down.
Now. Gifting Jaedong the win in game three totally screwed up the series, but the series was unsalvagable the moment the game crashed anyhow. But you are fucking kidding yourself if you think that a rematch would have done both players any justice. The dynamic of the series would have been changed completely in Flash's favour. Which is what you wanted. Which is what you expected. Something you didn't get and have been bitching about ever since.
Flash was screwed over, but we all know that things probably wouldn't have been different, but you just want to take that 5% chance of "but things might have been different" and skew it so far in Flash's favour. Then you pretend that would have been "more fair" and "would have saved the dynamic of the series more". Bullshit. It would have wrecked the series, but would have had Flash in a solid position to take the series instead of on the brink of defeat. That's why you are so livid about it. Don't pretend otherwise.
Hmm, someone is really angry. If it was JD in Flash's position I would call for a rematch regardless. It's what Kespa has always done, why is it wrong to be surprised? Do you really think Plexa, Chill or Fakesteve would suddenly change their minds if Jaedong was the one who was losing but still had a chance?
Take a couple deep breaths before you post again and start accusing.
On January 24 2010 16:39 Vasoline73 wrote: Preach it Fakesteve. When you have people like Last Romantic, Plexa, Idra, Fakesteve and Chill all saying a rematch was the correct course of action... well then it's not as clear cut as people are pretending it is -_-
I wonder if they were willing to rematch if they were IN JD's position?
I'd bet a lot of money that they would take the win. It's always easy to say "rematch is fair" if the decision doesnt affect you at all.
Kespa is supposed to make the most fair choice, for both the players and the sport as a whole. I really doubt that anyone who was arguing that it was fair would suddenly change their minds in JD's shoes.
Forcing a guaranteed loss on someone who had a chance to win (in my opinion) is much worse than forcing a rematch that the advantaged player in the previous can still win. It affects the series flow much less than making a random call that goes against all previous calls made by Kespa. If JD was the one losing the game when the blackout occurred I would still call for a rematch, even as a Flash fan, that's how I feel about it. Calling an unwon game in a finals is horrible and kills the dynamic much worse than a rematch, and there's plenty of people who agree.
Jaedong would most likely have won game three. This is out of debate. Judging from their starting BO in game four (Jaedong totally predicting Flash's bunker rush in his least favourite map), Jaedong was in a very good shape to close up the series there. I don't think things would have been very different had we done the "fair" thing to do which restart the game from where they left off; Jaedong on the brink of taking Flash down.
Now. Gifting Jaedong the win in game three totally screwed up the series, but the series was unsalvagable the moment the game crashed anyhow. But you are fucking kidding yourself if you think that a rematch would have done both players any justice. The dynamic of the series would have been changed completely in Flash's favour. Which is what you wanted. Which is what you expected. Something you didn't get and have been bitching about ever since.
Flash was screwed over, but we all know that things probably wouldn't have been different, but you just want to take that 5% chance of "but things might have been different" and skew it so far in Flash's favour. Then you pretend that would have been "more fair" and "would have saved the dynamic of the series more". Bullshit. It would have wrecked the series, but would have had Flash in a solid position to take the series instead of on the brink of defeat. That's why you are so livid about it. Don't pretend otherwise.
5% chance? You don't know what the fuck you're talking about, more like 50% chance because Flash got his 3rd up, not to mention Flash had 3 armor and 3 weapons upgraded. If Flash gged legitimately than there would of been no uproar from Flash's dad or his coach.
Flash had an advantage, but then Jaedong slightly was ahead economically later on in the game. We don't know how the results would of turned out because of the black out, an automatic win was bull shit.
No, you don't know what you're talking about, and you never do. Why do you even bother posting?
Everyone agrees that Jaedong was significantly ahead in that game, including Kespa's referees, who not only understand the game better than you but had access to more information about it. The only questions are exactly how much Jaedong was ahead by and whether that was enough of a reason to award the game to him.
Now that the dust has settled and we all know that jaedong DID have a complete winning game, I also agree that out of respect for the legacy of all finals a rematch was the ONLY option although it does jaedong a huge disservice but now the winningest tournament zerg of all time will not get full credit for his complete domiance of the strongest terran the world has ever seen.
Honestly any C level zerg could have closed off flash in that situation, I know that I could have.... it isn't hard to press 5su6ss7sz8sz with full upgrades and stream ultras against a terran with between 4-7 sci vessels and no mines OR tanks.
Regardless of that without flash saying "I was going to lose, I concede game 3" the finals were ruined. The nicest thing flash could do for jaedong would be to come out in an interview and state just that "I was going to lose" that way his friend and rival can get credit for what was some of the most unique and ballsy zerg play I've ever seen in a finals 2 hat uber muta, 3hat->poolx2 , overpool.
God even thinking about how he prepared his weird plans makes me realize how much time he really did spend preparing. 3 hat muta -> dual slowdrop on two islands into gaurd->ultra/defiler...
Any of you think that it is time for other zergs to pickup the gauntlet and try and mix it up?
Two hat muta would be so strong if terran had to prepare for all of the other viable strategys that are availible to zerg.
On January 24 2010 04:36 epi wrote: The series was unrecoverable from the moment the power outage happened. Yes Jaedong was ahead, yes it was the right decision, but it doesn't change the fact that anyone who's ever watched a game of Starcraft knows that Flash wasn't trying in game four.
I think he looked so shaken because in the deciding match of the bo5 he went 8 rax vs 9 pool.
Not sure if you watched this live, but for the entire hour between game 3 and 4 whenever they showed Flash he looked aboslutely crushed.
17 years old and taken out of your playing mindset/away from your computer for an hour of uncertainty while your dad and team are raging/nearly get kicked out of the studio on the biggest night of your life as a progamer etc.
I'm just speculating on those factors influencing him, but honestly if you watched it live (which not everyone commenting in these threads did) you would see how demoralized and "done" with this event both players seemed to be mentally in between games 3 and 4. The competetive spirit was completely gone, and I don't think that's up for debate. You are more than welcome to disagree with me.
Flash went 8rax, and then into one base bio against 3 hatch on a large macro map with four player spawns - just saying.
Several several fans even flooded out the instant game four ended. There are many viewers of the live matches who agree how the decision and one hour hiatus surrounding game 3 completely killed the morale of the players and audience + the spirit of this entire event.
On January 24 2010 16:39 Vasoline73 wrote: Preach it Fakesteve. When you have people like Last Romantic, Plexa, Idra, Fakesteve and Chill all saying a rematch was the correct course of action... well then it's not as clear cut as people are pretending it is -_-
I wonder if they were willing to rematch if they were IN JD's position?
I'd bet a lot of money that they would take the win. It's always easy to say "rematch is fair" if the decision doesnt affect you at all.
Kespa is supposed to make the most fair choice, for both the players and the sport as a whole. I really doubt that anyone who was arguing that it was fair would suddenly change their minds in JD's shoes.
Forcing a guaranteed loss on someone who had a chance to win (in my opinion) is much worse than forcing a rematch that the advantaged player in the previous can still win. It affects the series flow much less than making a random call that goes against all previous calls made by Kespa. If JD was the one losing the game when the blackout occurred I would still call for a rematch, even as a Flash fan, that's how I feel about it. Calling an unwon game in a finals is horrible and kills the dynamic much worse than a rematch, and there's plenty of people who agree.
Jaedong would most likely have won game three. This is out of debate. Judging from their starting BO in game four (Jaedong totally predicting Flash's bunker rush in his least favourite map), Jaedong was in a very good shape to close up the series there. I don't think things would have been very different had we done the "fair" thing to do which restart the game from where they left off; Jaedong on the brink of taking Flash down.
Now. Gifting Jaedong the win in game three totally screwed up the series, but the series was unsalvagable the moment the game crashed anyhow. But you are fucking kidding yourself if you think that a rematch would have done both players any justice. The dynamic of the series would have been changed completely in Flash's favour. Which is what you wanted. Which is what you expected. Something you didn't get and have been bitching about ever since.
Flash was screwed over, but we all know that things probably wouldn't have been different, but you just want to take that 5% chance of "but things might have been different" and skew it so far in Flash's favour. Then you pretend that would have been "more fair" and "would have saved the dynamic of the series more". Bullshit. It would have wrecked the series, but would have had Flash in a solid position to take the series instead of on the brink of defeat. That's why you are so livid about it. Don't pretend otherwise.
5% chance? You don't know what the fuck you're talking about, more like 50% chance because Flash got his 3rd up, not to mention Flash had 3 armor and 3 weapons upgraded. If Flash gged legitimately than there would of been no uproar from Flash's dad or his coach.
Flash had an advantage, but then Jaedong slightly was ahead economically later on in the game. We don't know how the results would of turned out because of the black out, an automatic win was bull shit.
You shouldnt be allowed to post on anything related to strategy, most of your posts regarding situations is completely biased assessments with no clue whatsoever and is basically churning out incomprehensible garbage. 50% really? What game have you been watching, and have you ever played TvZ late game? I assure you that pumping 4rax MnM with 1 port off 6 mineral patches has no chance at all of beating 5gas(soon 6) ultra/filer/ling that are fully upgraded. Anyone who thinks Flash had even a slight advantage in that game is ridiculously misinformed. You are a Flash/Movie fanboy but stop spamming garbage strategical appraisals when they lose okay? No one is arguing that Flash is ahead, but whether a re should be allowed or not, everyone knows that Flash was extremely behind that game.
On January 24 2010 16:39 Vasoline73 wrote: Preach it Fakesteve. When you have people like Last Romantic, Plexa, Idra, Fakesteve and Chill all saying a rematch was the correct course of action... well then it's not as clear cut as people are pretending it is -_-
I wonder if they were willing to rematch if they were IN JD's position?
I'd bet a lot of money that they would take the win. It's always easy to say "rematch is fair" if the decision doesnt affect you at all.
Kespa is supposed to make the most fair choice, for both the players and the sport as a whole. I really doubt that anyone who was arguing that it was fair would suddenly change their minds in JD's shoes.
Forcing a guaranteed loss on someone who had a chance to win (in my opinion) is much worse than forcing a rematch that the advantaged player in the previous can still win. It affects the series flow much less than making a random call that goes against all previous calls made by Kespa. If JD was the one losing the game when the blackout occurred I would still call for a rematch, even as a Flash fan, that's how I feel about it. Calling an unwon game in a finals is horrible and kills the dynamic much worse than a rematch, and there's plenty of people who agree.
Jaedong would most likely have won game three. This is out of debate. Judging from their starting BO in game four (Jaedong totally predicting Flash's bunker rush in his least favourite map), Jaedong was in a very good shape to close up the series there. I don't think things would have been very different had we done the "fair" thing to do which restart the game from where they left off; Jaedong on the brink of taking Flash down.
Now. Gifting Jaedong the win in game three totally screwed up the series, but the series was unsalvagable the moment the game crashed anyhow. But you are fucking kidding yourself if you think that a rematch would have done both players any justice. The dynamic of the series would have been changed completely in Flash's favour. Which is what you wanted. Which is what you expected. Something you didn't get and have been bitching about ever since.
Flash was screwed over, but we all know that things probably wouldn't have been different, but you just want to take that 5% chance of "but things might have been different" and skew it so far in Flash's favour. Then you pretend that would have been "more fair" and "would have saved the dynamic of the series more". Bullshit. It would have wrecked the series, but would have had Flash in a solid position to take the series instead of on the brink of defeat. That's why you are so livid about it. Don't pretend otherwise.
Hmm, someone is really angry. If it was JD in Flash's position I would call for a rematch regardless. It's what Kespa has always done, why is it wrong to be surprised? Do you really think Plexa, Chill or Fakesteve would suddenly change their minds if Jaedong was the one who was losing but still had a chance?
Take a couple deep breaths before you post again and start accusing.
I'm sorry. I just got incredibly frustrated with some of the nonsense thrown about. It looks to me some people are just asking for a rematch simply because they themselves couldn't see the obvious in the game. If you truly believe that all games that ends with a crash should be replayed, then okay, I don't agree with you, but sure, to each his own. I simply don't see how replaying the game would have salvaged the series any more than the decision made by the referee simply because it had been done before.
I wonder, why do people think they are in a better position to judge who has the advantage than kespa. These people do it for a living. They watch and judge starcraft games almost every day and get paid to judge it fairly. They've seen so many games they probably think it's boring. They are constantly exposed to the progamers, coaches, leagues, and anything pertaining to pro starcraft.
Sure sometimes they make bad decisions like the one with typing errors, but when it comes to calling a game for the advantageous player upon a stoppage, they are only following the convention of the sports world.
When some casual players, or even "hardcore" players cuss at kespa for not knowing how starcraft works, it makes me wonder if they'd think they know infantry tactics better than the guys at West Point just because they play Call of Duty.
If Kespa says Jaedong had a significant advantage, unless you want to start accusing them of bribery and corruption, I suggest you realize that you are just an amateur to the game starcraft compared to these guys.
On January 24 2010 17:40 LostWraithSC wrote: I wonder, why do people think they are in a better position to judge who has the advantage than kespa. These people do it for a living. They watch and judge starcraft games almost every day and get paid to judge it fairly. They've seen so many games they probably think it's boring. They are constantly exposed to the progamers, coaches, leagues, and anything pertaining to pro starcraft.
Sure sometimes they make bad decisions like the one with typing errors, but when it comes to calling a game for the advantageous player upon a stoppage, they are only following the convention of the sports world.
When some casual players, or even "hardcore" players cuss at kespa for not knowing how starcraft works, it makes me wonder if they'd think they know infantry tactics better than the guys at West Point just because they play Call of Duty.
If Kespa says Jaedong had a significant advantage, unless you want to start accusing them of bribery and corruption, I suggest you realize that you are just an amateur to the game starcraft compared to these guys.
Do you believe that the people working for kespa understand lategame situations better then the average b level gamer? If so you are wrong.
On January 24 2010 17:47 AttackZerg wrote: Do you believe that the people working for kespa understand lategame situations then the average b level gamer? If so you are wrong.
How so? Professional sports coachs, former players, and judges have a much better understanding of their sport than an average player from a mediocre college team, that's the kind of comparison you are drawing here.
On January 24 2010 16:39 Vasoline73 wrote: Preach it Fakesteve. When you have people like Last Romantic, Plexa, Idra, Fakesteve and Chill all saying a rematch was the correct course of action... well then it's not as clear cut as people are pretending it is -_-
I wonder if they were willing to rematch if they were IN JD's position?
I'd bet a lot of money that they would take the win. It's always easy to say "rematch is fair" if the decision doesnt affect you at all.
Kespa is supposed to make the most fair choice, for both the players and the sport as a whole. I really doubt that anyone who was arguing that it was fair would suddenly change their minds in JD's shoes.
Forcing a guaranteed loss on someone who had a chance to win (in my opinion) is much worse than forcing a rematch that the advantaged player in the previous can still win. It affects the series flow much less than making a random call that goes against all previous calls made by Kespa. If JD was the one losing the game when the blackout occurred I would still call for a rematch, even as a Flash fan, that's how I feel about it. Calling an unwon game in a finals is horrible and kills the dynamic much worse than a rematch, and there's plenty of people who agree.
Jaedong would most likely have won game three. This is out of debate. Judging from their starting BO in game four (Jaedong totally predicting Flash's bunker rush in his least favourite map), Jaedong was in a very good shape to close up the series there. I don't think things would have been very different had we done the "fair" thing to do which restart the game from where they left off; Jaedong on the brink of taking Flash down.
Now. Gifting Jaedong the win in game three totally screwed up the series, but the series was unsalvagable the moment the game crashed anyhow. But you are fucking kidding yourself if you think that a rematch would have done both players any justice. The dynamic of the series would have been changed completely in Flash's favour. Which is what you wanted. Which is what you expected. Something you didn't get and have been bitching about ever since.
Flash was screwed over, but we all know that things probably wouldn't have been different, but you just want to take that 5% chance of "but things might have been different" and skew it so far in Flash's favour. Then you pretend that would have been "more fair" and "would have saved the dynamic of the series more". Bullshit. It would have wrecked the series, but would have had Flash in a solid position to take the series instead of on the brink of defeat. That's why you are so livid about it. Don't pretend otherwise.
5% chance? You don't know what the fuck you're talking about, more like 50% chance because Flash got his 3rd up, not to mention Flash had 3 armor and 3 weapons upgraded. If Flash gged legitimately than there would of been no uproar from Flash's dad or his coach.
Flash had an advantage, but then Jaedong slightly was ahead economically later on in the game. We don't know how the results would of turned out because of the black out, an automatic win was bull shit.
No, you don't know what you're talking about, and you never do. Why do you even bother posting?
Everyone agrees that Jaedong was significantly ahead in that game, including Kespa's referees, who not only understand the game better than you but had access to more information about it. The only questions are exactly how much Jaedong was ahead by and whether that was enough of a reason to award the game to him.
Everyone? From the way I see it many people have said that Jaedong was guaranteed to win, many fans have said that Flash could of won despite being behind economically. Flash's 3rd expansion was done and he was 3/3 in upgrades. Also the decision was made based off of remaining minerals and the number of base, nothing about unit composition, who or who wasn't winning what battle, etc. And since when were you a programmer? You're just a fan observing a match.
On January 24 2010 16:39 Vasoline73 wrote: Preach it Fakesteve. When you have people like Last Romantic, Plexa, Idra, Fakesteve and Chill all saying a rematch was the correct course of action... well then it's not as clear cut as people are pretending it is -_-
I wonder if they were willing to rematch if they were IN JD's position?
I'd bet a lot of money that they would take the win. It's always easy to say "rematch is fair" if the decision doesnt affect you at all.
Kespa is supposed to make the most fair choice, for both the players and the sport as a whole. I really doubt that anyone who was arguing that it was fair would suddenly change their minds in JD's shoes.
Forcing a guaranteed loss on someone who had a chance to win (in my opinion) is much worse than forcing a rematch that the advantaged player in the previous can still win. It affects the series flow much less than making a random call that goes against all previous calls made by Kespa. If JD was the one losing the game when the blackout occurred I would still call for a rematch, even as a Flash fan, that's how I feel about it. Calling an unwon game in a finals is horrible and kills the dynamic much worse than a rematch, and there's plenty of people who agree.
Jaedong would most likely have won game three. This is out of debate. Judging from their starting BO in game four (Jaedong totally predicting Flash's bunker rush in his least favourite map), Jaedong was in a very good shape to close up the series there. I don't think things would have been very different had we done the "fair" thing to do which restart the game from where they left off; Jaedong on the brink of taking Flash down.
Now. Gifting Jaedong the win in game three totally screwed up the series, but the series was unsalvagable the moment the game crashed anyhow. But you are fucking kidding yourself if you think that a rematch would have done both players any justice. The dynamic of the series would have been changed completely in Flash's favour. Which is what you wanted. Which is what you expected. Something you didn't get and have been bitching about ever since.
Flash was screwed over, but we all know that things probably wouldn't have been different, but you just want to take that 5% chance of "but things might have been different" and skew it so far in Flash's favour. Then you pretend that would have been "more fair" and "would have saved the dynamic of the series more". Bullshit. It would have wrecked the series, but would have had Flash in a solid position to take the series instead of on the brink of defeat. That's why you are so livid about it. Don't pretend otherwise.
5% chance? You don't know what the fuck you're talking about, more like 50% chance because Flash got his 3rd up, not to mention Flash had 3 armor and 3 weapons upgraded. If Flash gged legitimately than there would of been no uproar from Flash's dad or his coach.
Flash had an advantage, but then Jaedong slightly was ahead economically later on in the game. We don't know how the results would of turned out because of the black out, an automatic win was bull shit.
You shouldnt be allowed to post on anything related to strategy, most of your posts regarding situations is completely biased assessments with no clue whatsoever and is basically churning out incomprehensible garbage. 50% really? What game have you been watching, and have you ever played TvZ late game? I assure you that pumping 4rax MnM with 1 port off 6 mineral patches has no chance at all of beating 5gas(soon 6) ultra/filer/ling that are fully upgraded. Anyone who thinks Flash had even a slight advantage in that game is ridiculously misinformed. You are a Flash/Movie fanboy but stop spamming garbage strategical appraisals when they lose okay? No one is arguing that Flash is ahead, but whether a re should be allowed or not, everyone knows that Flash was extremely behind that game.
Extremely behind? Yet Flash for about 70% of the game had a pretty good lead winning some battles and taking out at least 3 hatcheries. Yes Flash was behind economically, but his third was about to be up and was ahead in tech compared to Jaedong. As for my post being garbage, no more then yours, and you know that. Also Jaedong hardly had any drones mining in either of his expansions. You can dissect and analyze this match all you want, but you're not completely right and neither is KeSpa.
On January 24 2010 17:40 LostWraithSC wrote: I wonder, why do people think they are in a better position to judge who has the advantage than kespa. These people do it for a living. They watch and judge starcraft games almost every day and get paid to judge it fairly. They've seen so many games they probably think it's boring. They are constantly exposed to the progamers, coaches, leagues, and anything pertaining to pro starcraft.
Sure sometimes they make bad decisions like the one with typing errors, but when it comes to calling a game for the advantageous player upon a stoppage, they are only following the convention of the sports world.
When some casual players, or even "hardcore" players cuss at kespa for not knowing how starcraft works, it makes me wonder if they'd think they know infantry tactics better than the guys at West Point just because they play Call of Duty.
If Kespa says Jaedong had a significant advantage, unless you want to start accusing them of bribery and corruption, I suggest you realize that you are just an amateur to the game starcraft compared to these guys.
Because Kespa has proven a hundred times that they were the worst responsible possible for the esports in general. Kespa has no idea about what is good and bad for the game, what is good and bad for the players, what is good an bad for esports.
Kespa is a structure of power and money. And they really really suck.
Now problem is not that the game was lost or not. The game was lost. But losing a game because you gg or losing a game because the game crashed and you had a disadvantage are two things radically different. Now nobody asks "Why did the game crashed". How the fuck can theses people not be able to secure a lan between three computers? That's amazing. It happens just when they install this retarded studio which cut the players from their audience.
The serie was screwed when the game crashed. I don't even care who won, it was shit.
On January 24 2010 13:44 Creationism wrote: I think the whole difference in the game is that you have no replay, you have no supply and no actual mineral count to base off of except what the commentators decided to look at. Even at the end, whether those ultras survived is also the question, the amount of health they had left. Even if Jaedong was taking another expansion, it was far from being done, and further from being mined.
The way the game went was left with what Flash could do. I really don't like people quoting other people on their opinion of the advantage and using it to convince people that Jaedong was massively ahead. Do they know the game better or does Flash know the game better? Seeing the way he gged in the first game, the very fact that he stayed in the game means to me he believed he still had a fighting chance.
And the argument that Jaedong had showed his build on this map and therefore was at a disadvantage is a flawed argument simply because both players obviously had specific BOs and both showed them. The racial imbalance on fighting spirit is very debatable because it is based off of past games, which do not number in the thousands, but simply in tens. Can't even law of large numbers that shit.
Even given all that I'm pretty torn between a rematch and the given victory, but I pretty much believe a rematch should be given in all situations of this type. Being a competition I think the trend should go towards allowing players to compete instead of taking away someone's ability to compete.
so if you were playing a 20 minute game in a tournament like this in game 3 on a terran favored map (70% correct?) and actually winning with a build that would only work once you wouldn't be pist if you had to do a rematch? Think about it Flash is just doing standard 1 rax fe as expected while jaedong did 3 hatch before pool into fast ultra which is way different and riskier. Do you really think if they rematched jaedong could/would do that same build? He would be at a disadvantage because he had that build specifically in mind for that game and would have been utter bullshit if they had to re it.
Now while I was rooting for jaedong I unlike most people look at this through 2 different views. For starters I do know that for Flash he may have had a chance (a very small one mind you) but he still thought he had a chance or he was just hoping Jaedong would fuck up and he would be able to win who knows but it would be more devestating for jaedong if there was a re as what would he do? 2 hatch muta all in? Yeah thats awesome because of MBC's stupid computers Jaedong has to do that strategy or lose as what else can he do? He can't do that 3 hatch before pool Flash wouldn't allow that so again think of it in Jaedongs perspective as well not just flash's. While I do think this was the best decision I do hate how its a lose/lose either way as had they said Re I would be surprised if Jaedong somehow won considering the map and he would have to do some different strategy.
That game was epic and I still after watching the end of the vod, the threads with why it looked like flash was going to lose I still hold to Kespa's decision. It just sucks it had to happen in game 3 why couldn't it have happened in game 1 or something its very ironic it happens in the best game of the series so far T_T.
I can honestly say that I would not be pissed if Flash was winning n had to rematch due to a blackout and even LOSING the rematch. I would not be pissed at all. Actually, I would think thats proper competition. I don't think the spirit of competition is EVER to take away a person's ability to compete and fight. If JD can do it once, he can do it again.
I didn't say if it was flash. I said if it was YOU in the position for xxx amount of money. I doubt you would say "yeah lets rematch even though now you know my build I just did so I have to do something more, sure its favored for my opponents race". No just no you wouldn't but since you will never be (nor me or anyone else here) you'll say "nah I would still rematch" but I bet if it happened you wouldn't if you were given the choice.
On note to the guy who just saw the MSL I do have to say most people were saying Flash was going to 3-0 3-1 jaedong if jaedong was lucky. Its why I was really really hoping Jaedong would win just because people tend to forget how good Jaedong really is and I am glad he proves again why he is still considered the best player
I would take the rematch. Given the choice and the instance, I would obviously WANT the given win, being in the position means I would want whats completely best for me, disregarding ALL other circumstances. That's the way it works. But had Kespa asked me to allow a rematch I wouldn't complain. I actually believe in the nature of competition and allowing a contest for the best even if I had lost my initial advantage.
Extremely behind? Yet Flash for about 70% of the game had a pretty good lead winning some battles and taking out at least 3 hatcheries. Yes Flash was behind economically, but his third was about to be up and was ahead in tech compared to Jaedong.
he took out the hatch at 1. empty hatch at 2 and empty hatch at 7 before it was set up and defended...
flash lost the big battle after taking out the hatch at 2..
and please explain how flash's tech was ahead of jaedong? (not been patronising)
I think the frustrations of Flash fans got extremely high during the games because a lot apprently did not see the last 30 seconds where Flash backed up and let JD have his 2 gas expansion (giving him 5 gas total, three of which were fresh).
I have never seen a pro game where a terran have comeback with a mineral only, a handful of marines, no tanks (or machine shop) and a very low vessel count, vs a zerg with 5 gas, fully carapace ultras, nydus canals and defilers. I mean, it just does not happen.
I was cheering for JD and I think the decision in game 3 was correct BUT it still doesn`t feel right for the audience aswell as for JD and Flash and that just makes me sad KeSpa done the right thing(never toguht I would say that one day ^^) but in my opinion MSL just proved to us that it holds the title of dipshit league number one I mean those guys once in a lifetime got a good final it`s not only a good one it`s the best finale you could think of at the moment and they really manage to screw it up with this ridicouls looking virtual studio and you can throw facts like hell at me set 4 was just the result of all this MSL drama everything happening after set 2 was just sad sad sad and BIIIIIIIIIG FU at the MostShittyLeague
On January 24 2010 16:39 Vasoline73 wrote: Preach it Fakesteve. When you have people like Last Romantic, Plexa, Idra, Fakesteve and Chill all saying a rematch was the correct course of action... well then it's not as clear cut as people are pretending it is -_-
I wonder if they were willing to rematch if they were IN JD's position?
I'd bet a lot of money that they would take the win. It's always easy to say "rematch is fair" if the decision doesnt affect you at all.
Kespa is supposed to make the most fair choice, for both the players and the sport as a whole. I really doubt that anyone who was arguing that it was fair would suddenly change their minds in JD's shoes.
Forcing a guaranteed loss on someone who had a chance to win (in my opinion) is much worse than forcing a rematch that the advantaged player in the previous can still win. It affects the series flow much less than making a random call that goes against all previous calls made by Kespa. If JD was the one losing the game when the blackout occurred I would still call for a rematch, even as a Flash fan, that's how I feel about it. Calling an unwon game in a finals is horrible and kills the dynamic much worse than a rematch, and there's plenty of people who agree.
Jaedong would most likely have won game three. This is out of debate. Judging from their starting BO in game four (Jaedong totally predicting Flash's bunker rush in his least favourite map), Jaedong was in a very good shape to close up the series there. I don't think things would have been very different had we done the "fair" thing to do which restart the game from where they left off; Jaedong on the brink of taking Flash down.
Now. Gifting Jaedong the win in game three totally screwed up the series, but the series was unsalvagable the moment the game crashed anyhow. But you are fucking kidding yourself if you think that a rematch would have done both players any justice. The dynamic of the series would have been changed completely in Flash's favour. Which is what you wanted. Which is what you expected. Something you didn't get and have been bitching about ever since.
Flash was screwed over, but we all know that things probably wouldn't have been different, but you just want to take that 5% chance of "but things might have been different" and skew it so far in Flash's favour. Then you pretend that would have been "more fair" and "would have saved the dynamic of the series more". Bullshit. It would have wrecked the series, but would have had Flash in a solid position to take the series instead of on the brink of defeat. That's why you are so livid about it. Don't pretend otherwise.
5% chance? You don't know what the fuck you're talking about, more like 50% chance because Flash got his 3rd up, not to mention Flash had 3 armor and 3 weapons upgraded. If Flash gged legitimately than there would of been no uproar from Flash's dad or his coach.
Flash had an advantage, but then Jaedong slightly was ahead economically later on in the game. We don't know how the results would of turned out because of the black out, an automatic win was bull shit.
You shouldnt be allowed to post on anything related to strategy, most of your posts regarding situations is completely biased assessments with no clue whatsoever and is basically churning out incomprehensible garbage. 50% really? What game have you been watching, and have you ever played TvZ late game? I assure you that pumping 4rax MnM with 1 port off 6 mineral patches has no chance at all of beating 5gas(soon 6) ultra/filer/ling that are fully upgraded. Anyone who thinks Flash had even a slight advantage in that game is ridiculously misinformed. You are a Flash/Movie fanboy but stop spamming garbage strategical appraisals when they lose okay? No one is arguing that Flash is ahead, but whether a re should be allowed or not, everyone knows that Flash was extremely behind that game.
Extremely behind? Yet Flash for about 70% of the game had a pretty good lead winning some battles and taking out at least 3 hatcheries. Yes Flash was behind economically, but his third was about to be up and was ahead in tech compared to Jaedong. As for my post being garbage, no more then yours, and you know that. Also Jaedong hardly had any drones mining in either of his expansions. You can dissect and analyze this match all you want, but you're not completely right and neither is KeSpa.
You and some others seem to disregard the mechanics of TvZ. What you try to accomplish in ZvT as zerg is get more than 3 gas, get ultra +5 armor, get defilers at all your expansions and nydus canals. Once this is accomplished you have so much gas you can mass ultras, build defilers and ofcourse mass lings, you have extreme map mobility and without tanks, terran can never attack your bases (invinsible units under swarm). For terran this is the worst case senario. All games (with a few exeptions which I will comeback to) terrans wins against zerg in these macro games revolve around denieing a forth or even 3rd gas, because if you succeed in this you can irradiate such a large portion of the ultras and defilers that zerg can get, that your m&m army can beat the immortal ultras. Even Flash losses to lesser zergs when he does not keep the zerg under 4 gas AND let them have ultras and defilers securing the zergs bases (look at 09-12-14 Shinhan 09-10 Proleague game vs Hyun).
Terrans that have won against a +3 gas zerg that have all tech (including flash) have had +3 gas themselves and then MASSED tanks. Like the game of calm vs flash in their recent series.
Now lets take a look at this game. Flash had 1½ minerals mining bases. He had two gas of which both were depleted. He did NOT have machineshop therefore could not suddently get mass tanks ( and did not have the gas for it either).
JD had 3 fresh gasses, he had the coverted defiler/ultra/crackling/nydus +3 carapace tech in the game. How can he lose this? If Flash cannot even beat Hyun in a situation where he was actually better of, how in the world should he ever beat JD.
Here is a scenario I would like to point out: What should flash do to the innevitable attack on his fresh min only, with a couple of defilers, a couple of ultras and some lings, when he DOES NOT have tanks OR map control. This would mean he would after a few seconds loose his min only and be starved.
In all reality, it wasnt 99.9% sure flash would lose, 0.1% being a comeback, it was 99.9% of us agree that unfinished game or finished game, jaedong had it, and thats that. that 0.1% (kt coaches and maybe flash) stuck to the old fashioned honor of a game restart. but its actually them with a "if a game is discontinued it must be restarted which means it gives a chance for flash to redeem a win when its given" facade, which would be a preposterous decision even if flash had the opportunity to comeback. i actually for once support kespa's decision of arbritrarily calling the game rather than sticking it to the thumb and do shit the "correct" way. stuff like that ended up as gorush and leta being in unhappy terms.
Its so easy to forget that they're so young, its no wonder flash played so so shakily in game 4, you'd need iron in your veins to not be crushed by those kind of fucked up circumstances. But yeah, flash had pretty much no chance of winning game 3, even if it hadnt gotten screwed
On January 24 2010 16:39 Vasoline73 wrote: Preach it Fakesteve. When you have people like Last Romantic, Plexa, Idra, Fakesteve and Chill all saying a rematch was the correct course of action... well then it's not as clear cut as people are pretending it is -_-
I wonder if they were willing to rematch if they were IN JD's position?
I'd bet a lot of money that they would take the win. It's always easy to say "rematch is fair" if the decision doesnt affect you at all.
Kespa is supposed to make the most fair choice, for both the players and the sport as a whole. I really doubt that anyone who was arguing that it was fair would suddenly change their minds in JD's shoes.
Forcing a guaranteed loss on someone who had a chance to win (in my opinion) is much worse than forcing a rematch that the advantaged player in the previous can still win. It affects the series flow much less than making a random call that goes against all previous calls made by Kespa. If JD was the one losing the game when the blackout occurred I would still call for a rematch, even as a Flash fan, that's how I feel about it. Calling an unwon game in a finals is horrible and kills the dynamic much worse than a rematch, and there's plenty of people who agree.
Jaedong would most likely have won game three. This is out of debate. Judging from their starting BO in game four (Jaedong totally predicting Flash's bunker rush in his least favourite map), Jaedong was in a very good shape to close up the series there. I don't think things would have been very different had we done the "fair" thing to do which restart the game from where they left off; Jaedong on the brink of taking Flash down.
Now. Gifting Jaedong the win in game three totally screwed up the series, but the series was unsalvagable the moment the game crashed anyhow. But you are fucking kidding yourself if you think that a rematch would have done both players any justice. The dynamic of the series would have been changed completely in Flash's favour. Which is what you wanted. Which is what you expected. Something you didn't get and have been bitching about ever since.
Flash was screwed over, but we all know that things probably wouldn't have been different, but you just want to take that 5% chance of "but things might have been different" and skew it so far in Flash's favour. Then you pretend that would have been "more fair" and "would have saved the dynamic of the series more". Bullshit. It would have wrecked the series, but would have had Flash in a solid position to take the series instead of on the brink of defeat. That's why you are so livid about it. Don't pretend otherwise.
5% chance? You don't know what the fuck you're talking about, more like 50% chance because Flash got his 3rd up, not to mention Flash had 3 armor and 3 weapons upgraded. If Flash gged legitimately than there would of been no uproar from Flash's dad or his coach.
Flash had an advantage, but then Jaedong slightly was ahead economically later on in the game. We don't know how the results would of turned out because of the black out, an automatic win was bull shit.
You shouldnt be allowed to post on anything related to strategy, most of your posts regarding situations is completely biased assessments with no clue whatsoever and is basically churning out incomprehensible garbage. 50% really? What game have you been watching, and have you ever played TvZ late game? I assure you that pumping 4rax MnM with 1 port off 6 mineral patches has no chance at all of beating 5gas(soon 6) ultra/filer/ling that are fully upgraded. Anyone who thinks Flash had even a slight advantage in that game is ridiculously misinformed. You are a Flash/Movie fanboy but stop spamming garbage strategical appraisals when they lose okay? No one is arguing that Flash is ahead, but whether a re should be allowed or not, everyone knows that Flash was extremely behind that game.
Extremely behind? Yet Flash for about 80% of the game had a pretty good lead winning many battles and taking out at least 3 hatcheries. Yes Flash was behind economically, but his third was about to be up and was ahead in tech compared to Jaedong. As for my post being garbage, no more then yours. Also Jaedong hardly had any drones mining in the 3 o'clock expansion. Jaedong was ahead, but it wasn't a guaranteed to win.
I''m sorry if I'm being repetitive now. But this is important to say: everyone that knows anything of the game knows that Flash was extremely behind. I don't think you can find anyone that contradicts this that is not a random poster (and Flash fanboy).
I'm pretty sure Flash himself knew he had lost that game. His retreating marines certainly indicate that.
I'm also pretty sure that his shakiness in game 4 can and should be attributed to the drama and the 1 hour wait, not the lost game 3. Who you want to blame for that, is your call.
Ps: Some ppl post here without even reading/comprehending the Op and should get slapped silly.
On January 24 2010 16:39 Vasoline73 wrote: Preach it Fakesteve. When you have people like Last Romantic, Plexa, Idra, Fakesteve and Chill all saying a rematch was the correct course of action... well then it's not as clear cut as people are pretending it is -_-
I wonder if they were willing to rematch if they were IN JD's position?
I'd bet a lot of money that they would take the win. It's always easy to say "rematch is fair" if the decision doesnt affect you at all.
Kespa is supposed to make the most fair choice, for both the players and the sport as a whole. I really doubt that anyone who was arguing that it was fair would suddenly change their minds in JD's shoes.
Forcing a guaranteed loss on someone who had a chance to win (in my opinion) is much worse than forcing a rematch that the advantaged player in the previous can still win. It affects the series flow much less than making a random call that goes against all previous calls made by Kespa. If JD was the one losing the game when the blackout occurred I would still call for a rematch, even as a Flash fan, that's how I feel about it. Calling an unwon game in a finals is horrible and kills the dynamic much worse than a rematch, and there's plenty of people who agree.
Jaedong would most likely have won game three. This is out of debate. Judging from their starting BO in game four (Jaedong totally predicting Flash's bunker rush in his least favourite map), Jaedong was in a very good shape to close up the series there. I don't think things would have been very different had we done the "fair" thing to do which restart the game from where they left off; Jaedong on the brink of taking Flash down.
Now. Gifting Jaedong the win in game three totally screwed up the series, but the series was unsalvagable the moment the game crashed anyhow. But you are fucking kidding yourself if you think that a rematch would have done both players any justice. The dynamic of the series would have been changed completely in Flash's favour. Which is what you wanted. Which is what you expected. Something you didn't get and have been bitching about ever since.
Flash was screwed over, but we all know that things probably wouldn't have been different, but you just want to take that 5% chance of "but things might have been different" and skew it so far in Flash's favour. Then you pretend that would have been "more fair" and "would have saved the dynamic of the series more". Bullshit. It would have wrecked the series, but would have had Flash in a solid position to take the series instead of on the brink of defeat. That's why you are so livid about it. Don't pretend otherwise.
5% chance? You don't know what the fuck you're talking about, more like 50% chance because Flash got his 3rd up, not to mention Flash had 3 armor and 3 weapons upgraded. If Flash gged legitimately than there would of been no uproar from Flash's dad or his coach.
Flash had an advantage, but then Jaedong slightly was ahead economically later on in the game. We don't know how the results would of turned out because of the black out, an automatic win was bull shit.
You shouldnt be allowed to post on anything related to strategy, most of your posts regarding situations is completely biased assessments with no clue whatsoever and is basically churning out incomprehensible garbage. 50% really? What game have you been watching, and have you ever played TvZ late game? I assure you that pumping 4rax MnM with 1 port off 6 mineral patches has no chance at all of beating 5gas(soon 6) ultra/filer/ling that are fully upgraded. Anyone who thinks Flash had even a slight advantage in that game is ridiculously misinformed. You are a Flash/Movie fanboy but stop spamming garbage strategical appraisals when they lose okay? No one is arguing that Flash is ahead, but whether a re should be allowed or not, everyone knows that Flash was extremely behind that game.
Extremely behind? Yet Flash for about 70% of the game had a pretty good lead winning some battles and taking out at least 3 hatcheries. Yes Flash was behind economically, but his third was about to be up and was ahead in tech compared to Jaedong. As for my post being garbage, no more then yours, and you know that. Also Jaedong hardly had any drones mining in either of his expansions. You can dissect and analyze this match all you want, but you're not completely right and neither is KeSpa.
FireGuyX, bringing the knowledge.
Flash wasn't just behind economically. He had 12 mineral squares total, 6 of which were <200 minerals. That's not enough to keep his barracks running. He was dead economically. In one minute he'd be down to 6 mineral squares. By comparison JaeDong had 4 mining bases with at least 25 drones seen mining minerals. I don't know people are still not getting this. How was he up in tech? He had mnm tech and vessel tech along with 3-3 upgrades. By comparison JaeDong had 5-2 ultralisks and defilers. That's zerg behind ahead in tech, Terran needs some mech tech to block that. You just don't know shit about shit. Terran went 2 base allin and it looked impressive and idiots who see nothing but flashy lights and pretty colours think that because Flash was making lots of marines he was winning. However everyone who knows anything about bw understands that when you go allin and that allin fails, you lose. Don't believe me?
Idra believes the game was over (but supports rematch for the sake of it) Ret believes the game was over 99.9% Nazgul believes the game was over 99% I believe the game was over (A- high) Lalush believes the game was over (A- high) Oystein believes the game was over (A- high) Ahzz believes the game was over (B+ high I think) Upon reviewing the last 30 seconds Chill agreed the game was over Fakesteve believes the game was over (but again supports a rematch) Attackzerg believes the game was over (B high) Incontrol "jaedong's win (was going to happen) is forever tainted" Fantasy "jaedong win" (thanks Romad)
And those are just the I can think of people off the top of my head. You are FireGuyX, renowned for being one of the worst posters in the strategy forum when it comes to general ignorance. Maybe you could let this one go.
On January 24 2010 20:54 InFdude wrote: Whats with all the 4th game bullcrap?Flash tried fast aggresion , JD had a 9 pool . The end.
nonono That game does not count because Flash was so pissed that he changed his bo at the last minute because he wanted to throw away 40k dollars by dropping the game. JD and Flash were so shaken up by that incident that they decided impromptu to change builds for a match they prepared for a week. A 7rax is all in, and there is no possible follow up other than a quick sunk break if you cant bunker rush, Flash was fucked, went all in and didnt even scan the nat before pushing in because he had no scans left, he pushed in so fast and he knew it was over that he didnt even wait for the 2nd medic to come in, he was hoping with all his heart that JD only build 1-2 sunks. There is almost no way he would get ahead of JD after a bo deficit like that, whether the fiasco happened or not that's probably how the game would've turned out
On January 24 2010 19:22 FireGuyX wrote: Also the decision was made based off of remaining minerals and the number of base, nothing about unit composition, who or who wasn't winning what battle, etc.
This keeps getting thrown around without being challenged. How do you know that's all they considered? That's what the chick said in the statement, but I highly doubt that's ALL they looked at. Her statement was very brief and to the point.
Kwark, stop saying the game was over. It wasn't over, that's why we're having this entire discussion. It will never be over and we will never know for CERTAIN what would have happened. Trying to reach an consensus is trying to rationalize something we will never know.
On January 24 2010 23:02 Foucault wrote: Kwark, stop saying the game was over. It wasn't over, that's why we're having this entire discussion. It will never be over and we will never know for CERTAIN what would have happened. Trying to reach an consensus is trying to rationalize something we will never know.
You think this topic is a discussion about whether it was over or not? I think you need to read the op again. This ain't no discussion.
Of course people can still make the argument that no matter how lopsided a game is, a rematch should be played. The OP in this thread doesn't deny that. It makes a strong case based on in-game analysis and metagame knowledge that Flash had few options left, and no options that would lead to him having a significant chance of victory that would justify a regame. This was an endgame situation and though we can't know exactly what would have happened we can set clear and indisputable limits as to the possible range of what would have happened. If people still think a regame was the only just response to a blackout, and, yes, a lot of people, some of them fair-minded and informed (Plexa, FakeSteve), some of them biased but polite (Vasoline73), and some of them biased, fantastically ignorant, and terrible posters to begin with, still believe that, then fine.
Nobody is trying to claim the game was 100% over. Of course Flash could still have won the game, even if it would have taken a complete brainmelt by jaedong and the loss of all motor control.
The question is whether Kespa made the right decision. Essentially it boils down to which basis you would have prefered them to have made their decision on.
Either a "Lesser of two evils" approach: In which case as Kwark, the OP, Ret et al have said, Kespa's decision was completely fair.
Or
Carte Blanche rematch in the case of any interrupted match.
If you subscribe to the second approach, fair enough... but bare in mind plenty of other sports have systems in place to decide winners in the case of interrupted play.
On January 24 2010 23:02 Foucault wrote: Kwark, stop saying the game was over. It wasn't over, that's why we're having this entire discussion. It will never be over and we will never know for CERTAIN what would have happened. Trying to reach an consensus is trying to rationalize something we will never know.
You don't have to prove that the game is 100% over. Just "over enough" to be closer statistically to a free win than to a rematch.
Basically: 1. Without blackout JD wins this game 9 times out of 10 2. A regame on Odd-Eye gives JD 4 wins out of 10 3. A free win gives JD the equivalent of 10 wins out of 10
That's my personal numbers and since #3 is much closer to #1 than #2 is that makes #3 the good decision in my book.
Now if you believe that JD and Flash were about 50/50 when the blackout happened (not saying you do) then obviously the rematch is a much better option since 40% is much closer to 50% than 100% is.
The real concern for me in this MSL isn't game 3. It's games 4 and 5 being pretty meaningless even before they were played given the mental state Flash probably was in. It would've been much better if KT+father just accepted KeSPA's decision instead of raging for hours before finally sending the kid back to be slaughtered. No need to kill me for saying this, I understand them and maybe would've have done just the same had I been there but still, it was probably the worst possible turn of events for the poor Flash.
On January 24 2010 23:02 Foucault wrote: Kwark, stop saying the game was over. It wasn't over, that's why we're having this entire discussion. It will never be over and we will never know for CERTAIN what would have happened. Trying to reach an consensus is trying to rationalize something we will never know.
You don't have to prove that the game is 100% over. Just "over enough" to be closer statistically to a free win than to a rematch.
Basically: 1. Without blackout JD wins this game 9 times out of 10 2. A regame on Odd-Eye gives JD 4 wins out of 10 3. A free win gives JD the equivalent of 10 wins out of 10
That's my personal numbers and since #3 is much closer to #1 than #2 is that makes #3 the good decision in my book.
Now if you believe that JD and Flash were about 50/50 when the blackout happened (not saying you do) then obviously the rematch is a much better option since 40% is much closer to 50% than 100% is.
The real concern for me in this MSL isn't game 3. It's games 4 and 5 being pretty meaningless even before they were played given the mental state Flash probably was in. It would've been much better if KT+father just accepted KeSPA's decision instead of raging for hours before finally sending the kid back to be slaughtered. No need to kill me for saying this, I understand them and maybe would've have done just the same had I been there but still, it was probably the worst possible turn of events for the poor Flash.
Dude you are giving Flash too much credit in that game 10% chance wtf even if JD suicide half of his army he would still win that game flash eco was nowhere and only he had like 2-4 vessels and 20 marines left against hordes of ultra ling defilers.
I would put Flash chance wining on less than 1%. Only wining if JD get a heartattack or smth like that.
On January 24 2010 23:02 Foucault wrote: Kwark, stop saying the game was over. It wasn't over, that's why we're having this entire discussion. It will never be over and we will never know for CERTAIN what would have happened. Trying to reach an consensus is trying to rationalize something we will never know.
You think this topic is a discussion about whether it was over or not? I think you need to read the op again. This ain't no discussion.
Well actually that commentator thing turned out to be a fake, probably made by an outrageous flash fanboy. You won't be able to find anything like that on his blog. (http://cyworld.com/coolwen) He just wrote "Sorry. To everyone.".
On January 24 2010 11:16 [X]Ken_D wrote: Match Point and Ultimatum isn't like most maps where zerg can put up 2 lurkers at an expo and be done with it. On those maps, it is very difficult to defend the 3rd gas. 3rd gas on Match points and Ultimatum have multiple entrance. Ultimatum has a big choke going in. Ultimatum has only 1 double gas expo which is always at 7 so it is quite predictable for most terran. The 4th gas is even more difficult to secure on Match Point since it is so far way from the 3rd gas. Being a 2 player map, it is far easier to do proxy bunker rush against a zerg. 9 pool or earlier are much easier to defend since SCV can scout it right away.
your arguments about match point are valid, but if you take mine into consideration you'll see zerg can build up big enough of an advantage with mutas to be able to overcome harder defended 3rd gas
also we've seen many (every) zergs take min only as 4th hatch and stick to those 4 instead of rushing for 4th gas which results is huge ling heavy army which then lets you take 4th gas easier (if you even need it to win)
the 2nd map you're talking about is odd eye and not ultimatum, ultimatum is 4p one with island expos, I agree odd eye is very terran favored and should've been altered or removed as far as tvz is concerned
What's kinda funny about this situation is how deceiving the game looks to a newbie. A newbie sees a constantly aggressive Terran, with a huge number of marines and medics, killing Zerg bases while Zerg is constantly defending and never actually damages (or even really attempts to) the Terran bases. Then suddenly, the game is over, and JD is handed the win!
lol. Kinda funny.
Actually, PvZ can work the same way. A Protoss can macro a shitload off 2 bases, but if he can't land that crippling blow in time, it doesn't matter. The game is literally over the minute Protoss mines out and Zerg is still sitting on 5 gases.
Pretty much the same thing here. Flash's army looks mighty impressive through the game, but he actually doesn't do enough damage with it to make up for the fact that he has an incredibly late 3rd. The blackout occurs literally 30 seconds before Flash runs dry and crumbles. If the game had continued Flash's min only would have been forced to lift in 30 seconds from swarm + few lings + ultra and the game is over like that, leaving all the newbies in the audience scratching their heads "wtf!!!"
Hm sorry have a Question is there any rule about this. I mean if they do have rule that says the the winner has to be decided based on postion or something else. If there is then a re - match would be really wrong and the other way around is also truth.
Has there ever been a rematch duo to something similar or have they always annoused a winner?
I assume the FPVoD's exist due to the existance of the normal game VoD. (I could be wrong here)
This might sound like a silly question but:
Is there a possibility the FPVoD's will be made available? Who has control over them, the players or KESPA?
If it were up to Flash and JD on whether or not to release them, I wouldn't be suprised if they shared theirs with each other already. If they did and both agreed the situation sucked but the decision was fair, then all is well.
Who knows? we may hear about this in an interview in the future. Either way - as they are known to be friends with each other I'm sure they've reconciled it already.
My 2 cents (which no one probably cares about, and doesn't really matter) is that the situation sucked but the decision was fair. In the final 30 seconds, JD had just rocketed ahead through some really amazing clutch play, but 2 minutes earlier you couldn't have called it either way.
If there was a re-game awarded instead, it should definitely have been on another map. It isn't about map imbalance / map statistics, it's making JD replay the map he thumbed down that would make it unfair.
Also, it's pretty terrible that the last 30 seconds of the VoD were unable to be played by the commentators. At the point where they stop, you just don't have enough info to make any kind of decision. I'm sure this roiled Flash's dad as well.
On January 24 2010 20:54 InFdude wrote: Whats with all the 4th game bullcrap?Flash tried fast aggresion , JD had a 9 pool . The end.
nonono That game does not count because Flash was so pissed that he changed his bo at the last minute because he wanted to throw away 40k dollars by dropping the game. JD and Flash were so shaken up by that incident that they decided impromptu to change builds for a match they prepared for a week. A 7rax is all in, and there is no possible follow up other than a quick sunk break if you cant bunker rush, Flash was fucked, went all in and didnt even scan the nat before pushing in because he had no scans left, he pushed in so fast and he knew it was over that he didnt even wait for the 2nd medic to come in, he was hoping with all his heart that JD only build 1-2 sunks. There is almost no way he would get ahead of JD after a bo deficit like that, whether the fiasco happened or not that's probably how the game would've turned out
Whats tells you that they both changed it? Maybe Flash wanted to cheese on that map since the beginning.
I think what many people seem to miss is that if the game had blacked out earlier when Flash was in the lead, then KESPA could have awarded Flash the win. The fact that it blacked out later was unfortunate for Flash. THis becomes a circular debate of - oh, it blacked out now, so we give it to Flash or oh, it blacked out now so we give it to JD.
The point being, they shouldn't have awarded the win just because a player had an advantage.
Another perspective to look at is KT walked out after KESPA made their decision. That meant the coach and the team believed Flash had a chance. If the game was 99% a forgone conclusion, I don't think KT and Flash's coach would have demonstrated against the ruling. They would have accepted it, and Flash would have accepted it, and even Flash's dad would have accepted it.
On January 24 2010 20:54 InFdude wrote: Whats with all the 4th game bullcrap?Flash tried fast aggresion , JD had a 9 pool . The end.
nonono That game does not count because Flash was so pissed that he changed his bo at the last minute because he wanted to throw away 40k dollars by dropping the game. JD and Flash were so shaken up by that incident that they decided impromptu to change builds for a match they prepared for a week. A 7rax is all in, and there is no possible follow up other than a quick sunk break if you cant bunker rush, Flash was fucked, went all in and didnt even scan the nat before pushing in because he had no scans left, he pushed in so fast and he knew it was over that he didnt even wait for the 2nd medic to come in, he was hoping with all his heart that JD only build 1-2 sunks. There is almost no way he would get ahead of JD after a bo deficit like that, whether the fiasco happened or not that's probably how the game would've turned out
Whats tells you that they both changed it? Maybe Flash wanted to cheese on that map since the beginning.
I was being sarcastic in case you didn't notice + read the last sentence.
On January 25 2010 04:11 StarcraftMan wrote: I think what many people seem to miss is that if the game had blacked out earlier when Flash was in the lead, then KESPA could have awarded Flash the win. The fact that it blacked out later was unfortunate for Flash. THis becomes a circular debate of - oh, it blacked out now, so we give it to Flash or oh, it blacked out now so we give it to JD.
The point being, they shouldn't have awarded the win just because a player had an advantage.
Another perspective to look at is KT walked out after KESPA made their decision. That meant the coach and the team believed Flash had a chance. If the game was 99% a forgone conclusion, I don't think KT and Flash's coach would have demonstrated against the ruling. They would have accepted it, and Flash would have accepted it, and even Flash's dad would have accepted it.
The difference, I think, is that earlier in the game it was still far from over. Even when one player was at a disadvantage, both had steady income streams and standing armies. In those situations it would have been impossible to say how it might turn out. At the point when it blacked out however, Flash had almost no income or army left, and no shot of breaking JD's 7 o clock. Flash was even backing off by the end. JD, however, had map control, a healthy late game income stream, and streaming hive tech reinforcements. Flash wasn't just at a disadvantage, he was realistically out of options. That is the difference between the time of blackout and earlier in the game.
The fact that KT and Flash's Dad freaked out doesn't mean Flash realistically still had a chance. You have to look at the facts, which the OP does a good job summarizing.
On January 25 2010 04:11 StarcraftMan wrote: I think what many people seem to miss is that if the game had blacked out earlier when Flash was in the lead, then KESPA could have awarded Flash the win. The fact that it blacked out later was unfortunate for Flash. THis becomes a circular debate of - oh, it blacked out now, so we give it to Flash or oh, it blacked out now so we give it to JD.
The point being, they shouldn't have awarded the win just because a player had an advantage.
Another perspective to look at is KT walked out after KESPA made their decision. That meant the coach and the team believed Flash had a chance. If the game was 99% a forgone conclusion, I don't think KT and Flash's coach would have demonstrated against the ruling. They would have accepted it, and Flash would have accepted it, and even Flash's dad would have accepted it.
anything can happen in starcraft, they should have made a rematch, flash gave up on his final game. thats it thats all there is.
I blame KesPa for not having a simple power generator for the computers in case such an event occurs. I know it was a lose/lose situation for kespa but they should be better prepared.
On January 25 2010 04:49 Saturnize wrote: I blame KesPa for not having a simple power generator for the computers in case such an event occurs. I know it was a lose/lose situation for kespa but they should be better prepared.
That isn't Kespa's fault, lol. Too many of you guys are blaming the wrong people, when all of this was just a fail by MBC. The games were all "finals worthy" imo. The only problem was that the epicness was ruined by the 700 people virtual studio bs and the black out in game 3.
On January 25 2010 04:49 Saturnize wrote: I blame KesPa for not having a simple power generator for the computers in case such an event occurs. I know it was a lose/lose situation for kespa but they should be better prepared.
That isn't Kespa's fault, lol. Too many of you guys are blaming the wrong people, when all of this was just a fail by MBC. The games were all "finals worthy" imo. The only problem was that the epicness was ruined by the 700 people virtual studio bs and the black out in game 3.
The thing costs $40 why shouldn't they be prepared for this? Its so simple...MBC, Kespa, whoever could of had these for games just in case a black out were to occur.
On January 25 2010 04:49 Saturnize wrote: I blame KesPa for not having a simple power generator for the computers in case such an event occurs. I know it was a lose/lose situation for kespa but they should be better prepared.
That isn't Kespa's fault, lol. Too many of you guys are blaming the wrong people, when all of this was just a fail by MBC. The games were all "finals worthy" imo. The only problem was that the epicness was ruined by the 700 people virtual studio bs and the black out in game 3.
The thing costs $40 why shouldn't they be prepared for this? Its so simple...MBC, Kespa, whoever could of had these for games just in case a black out were to occur.
I guess power blackouts are so rare (its not the US grid, hurr^^) that noone thought of the possibility. edit: to be serious, you cant use a backup genenerator since it needs time to kick in so you would have to run the pc's on seperate power all the time which would be way over the top imho.
On January 25 2010 02:53 Jzerg wrote: I assume the FPVoD's exist due to the existance of the normal game VoD. (I could be wrong here)
This might sound like a silly question but:
Is there a possibility the FPVoD's will be made available? Who has control over them, the players or KESPA?
If it were up to Flash and JD on whether or not to release them, I wouldn't be suprised if they shared theirs with each other already. If they did and both agreed the situation sucked but the decision was fair, then all is well.
Who knows? we may hear about this in an interview in the future. Either way - as they are known to be friends with each other I'm sure they've reconciled it already.
My 2 cents (which no one probably cares about, and doesn't really matter) is that the situation sucked but the decision was fair. In the final 30 seconds, JD had just rocketed ahead through some really amazing clutch play, but 2 minutes earlier you couldn't have called it either way.
If there was a re-game awarded instead, it should definitely have been on another map. It isn't about map imbalance / map statistics, it's making JD replay the map he thumbed down that would make it unfair.
Also, it's pretty terrible that the last 30 seconds of the VoD were unable to be played by the commentators. At the point where they stop, you just don't have enough info to make any kind of decision. I'm sure this roiled Flash's dad as well.
the problem is the people who dont care or listen to reason are the huge fanboys who would never listen to logic or reasoning to begin with.
it was the best decision out of a shitty situation and jaedong did have the game in the bag. 10 rines and 6 medics vs almsot 6 gas zerG? but sitting on 5 gasses? terran with min only for a third, and late one at that? gg
flash handled the situation well though. still smiled and shook jaedong's hand properly congratulating him. if i were flash i would have been pissed enough to throw the monitor on the floor, but then i'd feel crappy after reading this quite convincing post
Fact in sports. Accidental stoppage of play. 1 point lead = win.
The game is over because of stoppages. There is no what if. Whoever has the advantage wins (kespa has rules for this as well, same with MLB and soccer leagues around the world). Everything past the stoppage is pure speculation and the only fact there exists is the score (or advantage in nonscoring games) at the point of stoppage. To nullify it is to nullify the spirit of the competition and all efforts put into the game so far by both teams.
If the blackout happened 3 minutes earlier when Flash was in the lead, flash deserves the win because for the first 15 minutes he's proven to be the better player and therefore to nullify that is unfair. Same with Jaedong at 18 minutes. Had the game ended at the 15th minute, there is no guessing (what's in the next 3 minutes, jaedong might comeback and gain the advantage). Well he did in real life, but had the game ended at 15 minute mark. I don't care, Flash had the advantage, Flash wins. 18 minutes, JD had the advantage, JD wins.
Stop arguing against sports convention. Rematches are unfair unless it's a tie.
On January 25 2010 07:23 LostWraithSC wrote: Fact in sports. Accidental stoppage of play. 1 point lead = win.
The game is over because of stoppages. There is no what if. Whoever has the advantage wins (kespa has rules for this as well, same with MLB and soccer leagues around the world). Everything past the stoppage is pure speculation and the only fact there exists is the score (or advantage in nonscoring games) at the point of stoppage. To nullify it is to nullify the spirit of the competition and all efforts put into the game so far by both teams.
If the blackout happened 3 minutes earlier when Flash was in the lead, flash deserves the win because for the first 15 minutes he's proven to be the better player and therefore to nullify that is unfair. Same with Jaedong at 18 minutes. Had the game ended at the 15th minute, there is no guessing (what's in the next 3 minutes, jaedong might comeback and gain the advantage). Well he did in real life, but had the game ended at 15 minute mark. I don't care, Flash had the advantage, Flash wins. 18 minutes, JD had the advantage, JD wins.
Stop arguing against sports convention. Rematches are unfair unless it's a tie.
In the MLB if a game gets rained out IN A CHAMPIONSHIP GAME they resume the game on a different date regardless of who is winning at that point in the game. Unfortunately there is no auto save feature in sc.
On January 25 2010 04:49 Saturnize wrote: I blame KesPa for not having a simple power generator for the computers in case such an event occurs. I know it was a lose/lose situation for kespa but they should be better prepared.
That isn't Kespa's fault, lol. Too many of you guys are blaming the wrong people, when all of this was just a fail by MBC. The games were all "finals worthy" imo. The only problem was that the epicness was ruined by the 700 people virtual studio bs and the black out in game 3.
The thing costs $40 why shouldn't they be prepared for this? Its so simple...MBC, Kespa, whoever could of had these for games just in case a black out were to occur.
Look it's all well and good to say "Kespa should have done this" and "MBC could've done that" but realistically how many times has this happened before? Kespa's decision was the best they felt they were capable of making in such a situation. I agree that MBC's planning of the finals was absolutely appalling, but there's really no use trying to solve the problem in retrospect.
On January 25 2010 07:23 LostWraithSC wrote: Fact in sports. Accidental stoppage of play. 1 point lead = win.
The game is over because of stoppages. There is no what if. Whoever has the advantage wins (kespa has rules for this as well, same with MLB and soccer leagues around the world). .
Fact: MLB Commissioner Selig went on record saying he would not let the Phillies vs Ray World Series end had the umpires stopped the game at 2-1 with the Phillies leading after the fifth inning had started. I'm tired of posting the reference - go up and read my earlier responses to find the Bud Selig quote.
It's good to see MLB and Selig have the sense to not "gift" the win to the leading team when the game is cancelled. Can't say the same about KESPA.
On January 25 2010 07:23 LostWraithSC wrote: Fact in sports. Accidental stoppage of play. 1 point lead = win.
The game is over because of stoppages. There is no what if. Whoever has the advantage wins (kespa has rules for this as well, same with MLB and soccer leagues around the world). .
Fact: MLB Commissioner Selig went on record saying he would not let the Phillies vs Ray World Series end had the umpires stopped the game at 2-1 with the Phillies leading after the fifth inning had started. I'm tired of posting the reference - go up and read my earlier responses to find the Bud Selig quote.
It's good to see MLB and Selig have the sense to not "gift" the win to the leading team when the game is cancelled. Can't say the same about KESPA.
Selig's opinion is not the official rulebook of the MLB. Games can be delayed in baseball because they can resume at the same score as before, and that's already disregarding the stamina and other factors. The official rule of the MLB states that games are awarded to the winning team after the fifth inning if the game must stop. We cannot resume the starcraft game even if its the finals of the series to end all series. By almost all rules of sports, not just baseball, when you absolutely cannot resume a match at a different time, the game is called at its current score with a rematch completely out of the question.
I can't agree with your reasoning behind Jaedong being "the greatest player of all time". Jaedong had much much more time to practice for the MSL Finals than Flash did, supposedly. I also feel that one game or series isn't really enough to prove that statement, especially this series.
On January 25 2010 08:39 endGame wrote: I can't agree with your reasoning behind Jaedong being "the greatest player of all time". Jaedong had much much more time to practice for the MSL Finals than Flash did, supposedly. I also feel that one game or series isn't really enough to prove that statement, especially this series.
But of course when Flash beat Jaedong in the OSL it was solid proof for all the fanboys that he totally owns Jaedong and is best player ever.
On January 25 2010 08:39 endGame wrote: I can't agree with your reasoning behind Jaedong being "the greatest player of all time". Jaedong had much much more time to practice for the MSL Finals than Flash did, supposedly. I also feel that one game or series isn't really enough to prove that statement, especially this series.
But of course when Flash beat Jaedong in the OSL it was solid proof for all the fanboys that he totally owns Jaedong and is best player ever.
No. Neither case is solid evidence. That would be inconsistent, now wouldn't it
On January 25 2010 07:23 LostWraithSC wrote: Fact in sports. Accidental stoppage of play. 1 point lead = win.
The game is over because of stoppages. There is no what if. Whoever has the advantage wins (kespa has rules for this as well, same with MLB and soccer leagues around the world). .
Fact: MLB Commissioner Selig went on record saying he would not let the Phillies vs Ray World Series end had the umpires stopped the game at 2-1 with the Phillies leading after the fifth inning had started. I'm tired of posting the reference - go up and read my earlier responses to find the Bud Selig quote.
It's good to see MLB and Selig have the sense to not "gift" the win to the leading team when the game is cancelled. Can't say the same about KESPA.
Selig's opinion is not the official rulebook of the MLB. Games can be delayed in baseball because they can resume at the same score as before, and that's already disregarding the stamina and other factors. The official rule of the MLB states that games are awarded to the winning team after the fifth inning if the game must stop. We cannot resume the starcraft game even if its the finals of the series to end all series. By almost all rules of sports, not just baseball, when you absolutely cannot resume a match at a different time, the game is called at its current score with a rematch completely out of the question.
But commissioner Selig has the good sense to overrule the official rulebook with respect to the World Series. FYI, the commissioner is above the rulebook.
What I think you fail to understand is that Selig and MLB are willing to follow the rulebook in the regular season because of scheduling reasons, and because there are 161 other games that a team can makeup for. Losing 1 game in a regular season to a rainout isn't such a big deal - unless it has playoff implications.
The point is, Selig is aware that when there are stakes at risk such as the World Series, he will overrule the playbook and force the match to finish at a later date, rather than "gifting" a win to the team leading when the game was stopped.
On January 25 2010 08:39 endGame wrote: I can't agree with your reasoning behind Jaedong being "the greatest player of all time". Jaedong had much much more time to practice for the MSL Finals than Flash did, supposedly. I also feel that one game or series isn't really enough to prove that statement, especially this series.
But of course when Flash beat Jaedong in the OSL it was solid proof for all the fanboys that he totally owns Jaedong and is best player ever.
+1 its so true and even then even though jaedong lost there was only 1 standard game which he lost yet people auto assumed flash is just soo much better then jd because of that one game its why I am very happy Jaedong won the MSL (and was going to win game 3 anyway)
On January 25 2010 07:23 LostWraithSC wrote: Fact in sports. Accidental stoppage of play. 1 point lead = win.
The game is over because of stoppages. There is no what if. Whoever has the advantage wins (kespa has rules for this as well, same with MLB and soccer leagues around the world). .
Fact: MLB Commissioner Selig went on record saying he would not let the Phillies vs Ray World Series end had the umpires stopped the game at 2-1 with the Phillies leading after the fifth inning had started. I'm tired of posting the reference - go up and read my earlier responses to find the Bud Selig quote.
It's good to see MLB and Selig have the sense to not "gift" the win to the leading team when the game is cancelled. Can't say the same about KESPA.
Selig's opinion is not the official rulebook of the MLB. Games can be delayed in baseball because they can resume at the same score as before, and that's already disregarding the stamina and other factors. The official rule of the MLB states that games are awarded to the winning team after the fifth inning if the game must stop. We cannot resume the starcraft game even if its the finals of the series to end all series. By almost all rules of sports, not just baseball, when you absolutely cannot resume a match at a different time, the game is called at its current score with a rematch completely out of the question.
But commissioner Selig has the good sense to overrule the official rulebook with respect to the World Series. FYI, the commissioner is above the rulebook.
What I think you fail to understand is that Selig and MLB are willing to follow the rulebook in the regular season because of scheduling reasons, and because there are 161 other games that a team can makeup for. Losing 1 game in a regular season to a rainout isn't such a big deal - unless it has playoff implications.
The point is, Selig is aware that when there are stakes at risk such as the World Series, he will overrule the playbook and force the match to finish at a later date, rather than "gifting" a win to the team leading when the game was stopped.
Well Kespa's known for following the rulebook extremely strictly, sometimes unreasonably so. However, the advantage was significant enough that it would've been unreasonable for the kespa officials to overrule the rulebook on the spot. Kespa agreed that the advantage is very significant and not just a hair's width, which is why they didn't overrule the normal convention. If the July vs. Bisu game was the game 5 of OSL finals, they still would've given July the win.
Also, if Selig did not get lucky with a tied game in the sixth, he still would've CONTINUED the game from where it was left off in a rain delay. Kespa does not have an option to continue the starcraft game. The alternative for selig was a continuation while the alternative for kespa is a rematch from scratch. Selig made a judgment call and the judgment call was be very different for kespa.
Lmfao @ cementing him as greatest player of all time. IMO he dominated flash in all of the games and made one massive mistake in game 2, but he is not there yet.
To Map Statistics: 1. The amount of games played on these maps did not have enough matches in their history to be confirmed bais. 2. The maps have not been played enough for anyone to have an optimal game plan. XX)For all we know in the coming months these maps will even out or even lean to zerg favor.
To Best Player Of All Time Obviously at the moment Flash and Jaedong are currently the top two players of the sport no matter who is above who (JD above flash currently), but they have not met enough times in my opinion to consider one the victor. This can only be decided when SCBW is over. Jaedong has much more time invested in gaming. Jaedong has beaten him perviously, but when he was newer to the game and did not currently play at his same level. This tourney is somewhat fluked, but in the end from the way JD was playing I believe the end was going to be 3-1 regardless. The one who wins the next few individual leagues or carries their team over each others will solidly cement one or the other as the greatest player of all time because after all that is done this game is over and one will come out victorious.
Btw contrats to JD after getting rolled by flash to come back and take this league from him. Seriously I had a total reverse guess of the final score, and he outplayed him.
We're not using only stats to prove map imbalance. All the progamers confirm it, and they've surely played enough on these maps and at a high enough level to understand.
On January 24 2010 07:01 checo wrote: Flash just need gas for vessels he never intend to get tanks he never did so cut the crap on the gas count plz
Yes, gas is needed for Vessels and he was running out of gas without many Vessels left. SK Terran without a large Vessel count = crap. You either need a lot of Vessels or some Vessels with Tanks. Flash had neither.. If he had like 12 Vessels or so floating around, I might be inclined to agree with you that the gas difference might be less of a factor, but that's not the case.
On January 24 2010 07:01 checo wrote: flash is able to mas huge armys from 1-2 bases and thats what he was doing hir lol,
Yes, but he lost most of that army and his resources were quickly running out whereas JD was making more bases. From an economic standpoint, Flash was at a huge disadvantage. Within a few minutes, Flash would have been macroing from 1 base while JD would have been macroing from numerous bases. It's just a numbers game at that point.
On January 24 2010 07:01 checo wrote: he was about to take JD base out.. 2 ultras that survive... with how many hp less than 50??? 3 vessels with less than 75 energy??? what is a couple of those were at 73-71energy???
If you actually see, Flash was retreating and JD was reinforcing his base with more Ultras and Zerglings before the blackout. With Dark Swarm coming from the 2 Defilers he had at the base right before the blackout, it doesn't matter if an Ultra has 10HP, you can't kill it with Marines.. There's no way Flash could have easily taken out JD's base and if you can honestly say that after watching the VOD again up to the point of the blackout, you're delusional..
On January 24 2010 07:01 checo wrote: Plz stop making maybes... your not sure as no one is because theres no fucking replay!!!
It seems you're the one making the "maybes" here. Most of the others in this thread are actually looking at the objective evidence as displayed in the VOD..
On January 24 2010 07:01 checo wrote: The regame was the corret choice we all know it, many said that JD practice more for that match or that use a special build, who cares? the match wasn't over that was the map to play rematch was the correct choice.
The match was pretty much over at the point that Flash lost all those units and couldn't break JD's 7 o'clock base. Could you argue for a replay? Sure, but it's not necessarily the correct choice. Starting the game over would effectively void the fact that Flash was losing the game by a good margin first time around and give him another chance. While neither situation is "fair", the correct one in my opinion would be the one that takes into account all the events that have actually occurred so long as a reasonable conclusion could be drawn from those events. In this scenario, it's reasonable to assume given the situation of both players that JD had a clear advantage and would have most likely won. We're not talking about a game that just started or one where both sides still had massive blobs yet to engage eachother. This game was pretty close to the end point and if you look at it calmly and objectively rather in the heat of the moment, you can see that.
Maybes where only to point the ones in the OP... LOL???
Yay, finaly you accept he had his third up.
I don't see ultras reinforments coming or flash retriting lol.... 3-4 vessels were alive and more coming from 2 port a few more mins in the game and you have your vessels.
A vod is like a dude with ear divice to call on a gunshot that he listen....
Replay was the correct choice, the most fair if you like
Extremely behind? Yet Flash for about 70% of the game had a pretty good lead winning some battles and taking out at least 3 hatcheries. Yes Flash was behind economically, but his third was about to be up and was ahead in tech compared to Jaedong. As for my post being garbage, no more then yours, and you know that. Also Jaedong hardly had any drones mining in either of his expansions. You can dissect and analyze this match all you want, but you're not completely right and neither is KeSpa.
I'd really like to see those who did not think it was over for Flash to also post their iccup ranks.
100% sure we'd get a bunch of D- level nit wits. You can't be as strategically retarded / clueless as they are and manage to win at anything more than 3v3 BGH games.
They make as much of a fool of themselves when they post in this thread as they do when they post in the Strategy forums.
On January 25 2010 14:49 Tien wrote: This discussion is pretty much over.
I'd really like to see those who did not think it was over for Flash to also post their iccup ranks.
100% sure we'd get a bunch of D- level nit wits. You can't be as strategically retarded / clueless as they are and manage to win at anything more than 3v3 BGH games.
They make as much of a fool of themselves when they post in this thread as they do when they post in the Strategy forums.
Enough already.
On January 23 2010 19:26 IdrA wrote: jd had a massive advantage but it was not entirely over and a player should never lose a game because of something like that
On January 25 2010 14:49 Tien wrote: This discussion is pretty much over.
I'd really like to see those who did not think it was over for Flash to also post their iccup ranks.
100% sure we'd get a bunch of D- level nit wits. You can't be as strategically retarded / clueless as they are and manage to win at anything more than 3v3 BGH games.
They make as much of a fool of themselves when they post in this thread as they do when they post in the Strategy forums.
On January 23 2010 19:26 IdrA wrote: jd had a massive advantage but it was not entirely over and a player should never lose a game because of something like that
Idra is A+ am i right?
IIRC he meant that "it wasn't over because Flash hadn't gg'ed yet".
On January 25 2010 14:49 Tien wrote: This discussion is pretty much over.
I'd really like to see those who did not think it was over for Flash to also post their iccup ranks.
100% sure we'd get a bunch of D- level nit wits. You can't be as strategically retarded / clueless as they are and manage to win at anything more than 3v3 BGH games.
They make as much of a fool of themselves when they post in this thread as they do when they post in the Strategy forums.
Enough already.
On January 23 2010 19:26 IdrA wrote: jd had a massive advantage but it was not entirely over and a player should never lose a game because of something like that
Idra is A+ am i right?
IIRC he meant that "it wasn't over because Flash hadn't gg'ed yet".
Besides, ret is pretty good too you know. ^^
well he didnt ask for those of the other opinion. I'm not really going to argue for either side and add to the flaming, just thought it was a funny due to his choice of words.
This bickering is stupid. The OP's analysis is correct. Jaedong did have all of thosee advantages and Flash really was very far behind. If you disagree then your level of play is probably too low to even comment properly or your opinions are blinded by the outrage felt from a sense of being cheated. However, if anyone still thinks that Flash could come back from that position then I will suggest a very easy way to settle this.
Someone take the time to create a UMS and try to recreate this scenario as closely as possible. Then let any and all challengers try to take the Terran army and beat a suitable opponent. Good luck...
On January 25 2010 14:49 Tien wrote: This discussion is pretty much over.
I'd really like to see those who did not think it was over for Flash to also post their iccup ranks.
100% sure we'd get a bunch of D- level nit wits. You can't be as strategically retarded / clueless as they are and manage to win at anything more than 3v3 BGH games.
They make as much of a fool of themselves when they post in this thread as they do when they post in the Strategy forums.
Enough already.
On January 25 2010 15:13 kingjames01 wrote: This bickering is stupid. The OP's analysis is correct. Jaedong did have all of thosee advantages and Flash really was very far behind. If you disagree then your level of play is probably too low to even comment properly or your opinions are blinded by the outrage felt from a sense of being cheated.
People are already so set in their ways about what happened that there's no real reason to argue, but this is really funny seeing posts like this.
On January 25 2010 15:13 kingjames01 wrote: This bickering is stupid. The OP's analysis is correct. Jaedong did have all of thosee advantages and Flash really was very far behind. If you disagree then your level of play is probably too low to even comment properly or your opinions are blinded by the outrage felt from a sense of being cheated. However, if anyone still thinks that Flash could come back from that position then I will suggest a very easy way to settle this.
Someone take the time to create a UMS and try to recreate this scenario as closely as possible. Then let any and all challengers try to take the Terran army and beat a suitable opponent. Good luck...
I cant believe so many people didn't think Jaedong was winning when it was live... I seriously thought Flash gged and that's why everything went blank.
On January 25 2010 14:49 Tien wrote: This discussion is pretty much over.
I'd really like to see those who did not think it was over for Flash to also post their iccup ranks.
100% sure we'd get a bunch of D- level nit wits. You can't be as strategically retarded / clueless as they are and manage to win at anything more than 3v3 BGH games.
They make as much of a fool of themselves when they post in this thread as they do when they post in the Strategy forums.
On January 25 2010 15:13 kingjames01 wrote: This bickering is stupid. The OP's analysis is correct. Jaedong did have all of thosee advantages and Flash really was very far behind. If you disagree then your level of play is probably too low to even comment properly or your opinions are blinded by the outrage felt from a sense of being cheated.
People are already so set in their ways about what happened that there's no real reason to argue, but this is really funny seeing posts like this.
To be fair, I never stated my opinion on the matter about whether or not a rematch should have been played and/or how the decision affected Flash's performance. To be honest I was cheering for Jaedong but I was pissed as hell when the blackout and the ruling occured. It felt like Jaedong had been cheated out of his impending victory in game 3 and I knew beforehand that Flash was going to lose game 4 because of it... The situation was crappy and unfair, but it happened. So, I don't know why you have to insinuate things about my opinion but I'd appreciate it if you weren't "already so set in your ways about what happened that there's no real reason to argue, but [honestly] this is really funny seeing [dumb] posts like this."
On January 24 2010 02:45 nK)Duke wrote: jaedong won, deal with it haters.
edit: You should have said something more about the 5 gas jaedong soon would have got. 5 gas equals 7,5 ultralisks in a minute. Considering the fact that Flash only got a few mineral patches left, (which maybe equals one mineral expansion only) and this will produce something more than 1000 minerals in a minute, Jaedong produces more gas than Flash produces minerals. 1000/50 means 20 marines per minute. Jaedong could have easily taken out Flash with ultralisks only.
You don't understand Flash's game at all, watch all of his VODs from the last few months, he doesn't depend on science vessels for killing ultras, he engages them head on with 3/3 marines and superior micro. Of course he irradiates when he can, but he fight's with numbers. He had 2 functioning mineral bases and enough gas to constantly produce science vessels, 3/3 upgrades were almost complete (his engi bay was flashing forever) and all his upgrades were purchased meaning he simply needed to make MnM+vessels, and micro them. No more tech ups, just enough mins to constantly supply fresh marines to the field, and enough vessels to ensure those defilers never get close.
Flash had transferred scvs to the min only and had a new CC building at his nat (began when his first one lifts off). Jaedong had no saturation at 2 of his "5" bases, 2 Ultras, 2 defilers (easily irradiatable) Flash was not out, Kespa can kill itself now.
On January 25 2010 15:13 kingjames01 wrote: This bickering is stupid. The OP's analysis is correct. Jaedong did have all of thosee advantages and Flash really was very far behind. If you disagree then your level of play is probably too low to even comment properly or your opinions are blinded by the outrage felt from a sense of being cheated. However, if anyone still thinks that Flash could come back from that position then I will suggest a very easy way to settle this.
Someone take the time to create a UMS and try to recreate this scenario as closely as possible. Then let any and all challengers try to take the Terran army and beat a suitable opponent. Good luck...
I cant believe so many people didn't think Jaedong was winning when it was live... I seriously thought Flash gged and that's why everything went blank.
Actually to a casual observer it wasnt obvious at all. After analysis of base count and economy we could easily see that JD had a huge lead, but what most casual people ie those under B level on ICCUP saw was Flash with a fucking huge army rape JD's base, lose that army and replenish it seemingly instantly, then have a back-and-forth fight with Jaedong barely hanging on to that 7. Basically Flash made all the flashy moves and won all the battles save one. Add to that fact that they never showed the main bases so unless you understood the timings you wouldnt know that Flash was mined out, so it seemed 3 base to 5, easily recoverable for Flash
Again after analysis and enlightenment it seems obvious that JD was winning but alot of people just dont understand the game on a deep enough level to make those connections, which is why we got so many flames about the decision.
On January 25 2010 14:49 Tien wrote: This discussion is pretty much over.
I'd really like to see those who did not think it was over for Flash to also post their iccup ranks.
100% sure we'd get a bunch of D- level nit wits. You can't be as strategically retarded / clueless as they are and manage to win at anything more than 3v3 BGH games.
They make as much of a fool of themselves when they post in this thread as they do when they post in the Strategy forums.
Enough already.
Wow, way to be a presumptuous twat. C+, I'm probably better than you. The fact that you agree with Kespa is hilarious/moronic. I don't mean to troll but goddamn.
On January 25 2010 14:49 Tien wrote: This discussion is pretty much over.
I'd really like to see those who did not think it was over for Flash to also post their iccup ranks.
100% sure we'd get a bunch of D- level nit wits. You can't be as strategically retarded / clueless as they are and manage to win at anything more than 3v3 BGH games.
They make as much of a fool of themselves when they post in this thread as they do when they post in the Strategy forums.
Enough already.
On January 25 2010 15:13 kingjames01 wrote: This bickering is stupid. The OP's analysis is correct. Jaedong did have all of thosee advantages and Flash really was very far behind. If you disagree then your level of play is probably too low to even comment properly or your opinions are blinded by the outrage felt from a sense of being cheated.
People are already so set in their ways about what happened that there's no real reason to argue, but this is really funny seeing posts like this.
To be fair, I never stated my opinion on the matter about whether or not a rematch should have been played and/or how the decision affected Flash's performance. To be honest I was cheering for Jaedong but I was pissed as hell when the blackout and the ruling occured. It felt like Jaedong had been cheated out of his impending victory in game 3 and I knew beforehand that Flash was going to lose game 4 because of it... The situation was crappy and unfair, but it happened. So, I don't know why you have to insinuate things about my opinion but I'd appreciate it if you weren't "already so set in your ways about what happened that there's no real reason to argue, but [honestly] this is really funny seeing [dumb] posts like this."
There's absolutely nothing wrong with posting your opinion. Yours seems like quite a reasonable one too. But from a high level player's perspective seeing people post things like "If you disagree then your level of play is probably too low to even comment properly or your opinions are blinded by the outrage felt from a sense of being cheated" and the quote above is hilarious.
The part about people being set in their ways comes from looking at the poor responses to Fakesteve's and Idra's numerous posts here and elsewhere.
But okay we'll give it a try and see if you are right about people being open minded. Let me offer a hypothetical scenario that is very very possible where Flash is in a distinctively better position:
For all we know Flash had just loaded up a dropship at his nat and was regrouping at his mineral to time an attack at 7 while dropping 4 simultaneously and he had his 3 vessels +1 newly made with 70 energy. Then suddenly it becomes nearly equal resources and if Flash keeps his vessels alive he has a huge advantage again.
Jaedong had for certain 2 heavily damaged ultras + 1 full one running from his nat, 2 defilers, and a handful of lings + whatever larvae he was making and who knows when that production cycle finishes or whether it had all lings or ultras too (he was even making drones at 7). Jaedong's main and nat were oversaturated all game and are going to dry up very quickly but again we don't know how soon; he's already running off of 7 on gas and very soon on mins too. Flash has who knows how many marines but with that many medics and the weakened ultras all it takes is a slightly errant engagement and Jaedong dies or just a swarm standoff while flash kills 4 with a dropship to completely reverse it. We don't even know what was mining with at 4; the commentator said 1 drone which may or may not have been right but Jaedong's nat/main were really oversaturated, making it quite possible. If he did indeed have almost nothing mining at 4 then Jaedong was most certainly in a much weaker position than people were giving him credit for since not only is his long term output a lot weaker but his reinforcements at the crucial point would be basically all lings.
As you can hopefully see, without the replay there is simply so much that cannot be known.
Now that's a pretty bleak picture and it's quite possible Jaedong has an ultra or two almost done and plague, full defiler energy not just part, plus more lings coming in through the nydus for energy. That's the thing though, nobody can know without the replay and it's all meaningless speculation from the vod. Yeah Jaedong had an advantage but there's still a lot of what ifs that make a certain conclusion impossible.
On January 25 2010 14:49 Tien wrote: This discussion is pretty much over.
I'd really like to see those who did not think it was over for Flash to also post their iccup ranks.
100% sure we'd get a bunch of D- level nit wits. You can't be as strategically retarded / clueless as they are and manage to win at anything more than 3v3 BGH games.
They make as much of a fool of themselves when they post in this thread as they do when they post in the Strategy forums.
Enough already.
On January 25 2010 15:13 kingjames01 wrote: This bickering is stupid. The OP's analysis is correct. Jaedong did have all of thosee advantages and Flash really was very far behind. If you disagree then your level of play is probably too low to even comment properly or your opinions are blinded by the outrage felt from a sense of being cheated.
People are already so set in their ways about what happened that there's no real reason to argue, but this is really funny seeing posts like this.
To be fair, I never stated my opinion on the matter about whether or not a rematch should have been played and/or how the decision affected Flash's performance. To be honest I was cheering for Jaedong but I was pissed as hell when the blackout and the ruling occured. It felt like Jaedong had been cheated out of his impending victory in game 3 and I knew beforehand that Flash was going to lose game 4 because of it... The situation was crappy and unfair, but it happened. So, I don't know why you have to insinuate things about my opinion but I'd appreciate it if you weren't "already so set in your ways about what happened that there's no real reason to argue, but [honestly] this is really funny seeing [dumb] posts like this."
There's absolutely nothing wrong with posting your opinion. Yours seems like quite a reasonable one too. But from a high level player's perspective seeing people post things like "If you disagree then your level of play is probably too low to even comment properly or your opinions are blinded by the outrage felt from a sense of being cheated" and the quote above is hilarious.
The part about people being set in their ways comes from looking at the poor responses to Fakesteve's and Idra's numerous posts here and elsewhere.
But okay we'll give it a try and see if you are right about people being open minded. Let me offer a hypothetical scenario that is very very possible where Flash is in a distinctively better position:
For all we know Flash had just loaded up a dropship at his nat and was regrouping at his mineral to time an attack at 7 while dropping 4 simultaneously and he had his 3 vessels +1 newly made with 70 energy. Then suddenly it becomes nearly equal resources and if Flash keeps his vessels alive he has a huge advantage again.
Jaedong had for certain 2 heavily damaged ultras + 1 full one running from his nat, 2 defilers, and a handful of lings + whatever larvae he was making and who knows when that production cycle finishes or whether it had all lings or ultras too (he was even making drones at 7). Jaedong's main and nat were oversaturated all game and are going to dry up very quickly but again we don't know how soon; he's already running off of 7 on gas and very soon on mins too. Flash has who knows how many marines but with that many medics and the weakened ultras all it takes is a slightly errant engagement and Jaedong dies or just a swarm standoff while flash kills 4 with a dropship to completely reverse it. We don't even know what was mining with at 4; the commentator said 1 drone which may or may not have been right but Jaedong's nat/main were really oversaturated, making it quite possible. If he did indeed have almost nothing mining at 4 then Jaedong was most certainly in a much weaker position than people were giving him credit for since not only is his long term output a lot weaker but his reinforcements at the crucial point would be basically all lings.
As you can hopefully see, without the replay there is simply so much that cannot be known.
Now that's a pretty bleak picture and it's quite possible Jaedong has an ultra or two almost done and plague, full defiler energy not just part, plus more lings coming in through the nydus for energy. That's the thing though, nobody can know without the replay and it's all meaningless speculation from the vod. Yeah Jaedong had an advantage but there's still a lot of what ifs that make a certain conclusion impossible.
For Flash to have more than 26 marines meant he was not sending all of them when allining at 7 which seems hugely unlikely to me. If Flash has 26 marines and 8 medics he doesn't have the units to hold 9 if he goes for drops. I honestly don't get this stuff about Flash doing drops, when he has just one mining base (I'm discounting his natural because it'll disappear within a minute) JaeDong would just trade bases with him. For Flash to have the units to attack with dropships (or anything else) he'd need to have been pulling his punches on his 2 base allin against 7.
Furthermore, Flash's 8 rax production was what he maintained while on 18 mineral patches. For the minute before the end of the game he was on 9 mineral patches. With this in mind, unless you wish to suggest Flash macroed badly and had minerals stored up, I would argue he could not have maintained full production out of his 8 rax. This means that even 26 marines (the marines we saw plus two full rounds of production) is unlikely.
In short, it's unlikely Flash had 26 marines. If he had 26 marines he couldn't hold his 3rd. If he put any marines into a dropship then his position at his 3rd (which he couldn't hold) would be significantly worse.
The people saying "we just don't know what Flash had" seem to be neglecting the basic fact that his main mined out. Yes, we don't know what he had. We do know how much money he had to spend though.
-We know that when he allined 7 that was everything he had because Flash isn't a total idiot. -We know that what retreated from 7 was 10 marines and 8 medics. -We know that Flash's main had been mined out for 1 minute. -We know that main + nat = 8 rax production (because Flash macros well)
Any suggestion that Flash had this vast army must be justified with reference to those facts.
Having concluded that Flash didn't have 60 marines and medics waiting to be loaded up into dropships lets look at some more numbers.
-Flash had +3 weapons, JaeDong had 3 armour. That means a full hp ultralisk requires 133 hits to kill. -Flash had 26 marines at most. I'd argue he had fewer because he had no minerals but lets be generous here. -JaeDong had at least 3 ultralisks (2 on half hp) and 2 defilers (both with energy). -Flash had either 4 vessels with low energy or 2 vessels and 2 dropships.
If you take 14 marines and 2 medics and put them in 2 dropships you are left with the following.
12 marines and 6 medics with 2 low energy science vessels defending 9 against 3 ultralisks, a couple of lings and 2 full energy defilers.
It simply doesn't matter if JaeDong loses his main, his natural, 4, 1 etc because Flash has no mining bases.
If you give Flash credit for as much stuff as he had time to make (giving him credit for infinite money despite his mined out main) and you assume JaeDong had nothing but the stuff we saw and that every dot on the minimap of JaeDongs was a zergling and that JaeDong had 0 units building, Flash still cannot do anything more than trade bases.
This dropship nonsense is just that. Nonsense. It violates reality. If Flash had any spare marines, they'd have been at 7 with the others. If Flash didn't have any spare marines then we can work out an upper limit for how many.
He may have had dropships. He did not have marines to put in them.
In short, the problem here is a bunch of people saying we don't know how many marines Flash had. That is a fundamentally flawed assumption. We know he sent his entire army at 7. We know how many retreated from 7. We know how many barracks he had. We know how long he had them for.
That means we know how many marines Flash could possibly have had. It's 26 marines and 8 medics.
That is of course assuming that Flash's marine production isn't in any way related to the fact that his main was mined out.
Why are people saying that JD had obviously nearly no reinforcements under way to 7? He has Nydus, why would you see Units walk over the map?
Also the ropship* scare --> Nydus (+ Mapcontrol + unlikely to happen anyway + likely to not matter at all even if he kills off a base)... He would need something like Boxer's *I drop 3 bases at once* to make his way back... Which is beyond unlikely.
Game 4: Flash goes for a fast Bunker rush... Call the cops? What's so surprising about this except that it didn't work for once, his follow up was questionable but unless you guys can read minds, you don't know any of the reasons for him doing this
He lost game 1. He won game 2 where he was very behind economically due to a really nice idea and being spot on with his timing andJD not expecting it while being really stupid with Guardians. He would most probably have lost game 3.
Chances are, no matter what happens in between, he probably would be in a mentally pretty bad state anyway and would try something diffrent than straight up 2 base/macro play.
There are really 2 arguments here - "how should KeSPA have made their decision" and "given a decision making process, what conclusion should KeSPA have come to ".
Looks like the main camps for the first, the decision making process, are
1. use a judgement call with no pre-defined line on what the threshhold for awarding a win is (what they appear to have done)
2. have a pre-instated rule that any game that ends without a GG gets replayed (not an option in this case since this rule doesn't exist)
3. always award the game to whoever is "ahead" based on some pre-defined criteria (again, not an option in this case since this doesn't exist)
3 just sounds stupid. 2 would probably be more fair if this policy were in place to begin with - but since their standard policy appears to be 1, I don't think it would have been fair to switch their policy just for this one game.
I'm not even going to try and argue what the right decision should be, even assuming that they must decide using policy 1..
It's open from 3 sides with huge ramps and cut off from the barracks so it's impossible to reinforce.
But he could irradiate the defilers while dropping.
2 Science Vessels and 2 Dropships or 4 Science Vessels. Those are your options. You can't have it both ways. The Science Vessels didn't have the energy to irradiate just before the blackout. If they were each on 74 energy at the time then that gives him two irradiates. That's not enough to hold 9 against JaeDongs army if he is also dropping.
If Flash was regrouping at his nat.
The attack before was his final allin. The thing about allins, the kind of definite thing you need to remember about them, is that you put it all in. His entire build was based around destroying 7. He sent every marine he had. If he was regrouping at his natural he still didn't have more than 26 marines.
JaeDong's reinforcements would be basically all lings.
Lings are what zerg makes when they have spare minerals and not enough gas. This is because lings cost minerals but not gas. If you examine the vod carefully you'll notice that JaeDong wasn't hurting for gas. To make the case that JaeDong was going pure lings against 3-3 marines you'd need to also make the case that JaeDong took all of his drones off of gas. If you do not wish to make this case then any suggestion that he wasn't making gas units is a bit silly.
That was mainly addressed at you by the way Ver. I respect your strategic knowledge but your hypothetical can only be given so much "we just don't know" before it crosses into the realm of things we do know.
You suggest "we just don't know" how many marines he had. We do know how many barracks he had. We do know how long they were producing for since the last army we saw. We do know how many marines he had left from the last army we saw.
You suggest "we just don't know" what JaeDong's units were. We do know JaeDong was mining a lot of gas. We do know JaeDong had defiler and ultralisk tech. We do know JaeDong isn't a total idiot.
Your assumptions are based on giving credit to Flash for more marines than he could possibly have had and giving JaeDong less gas units than he would possibly have had.
Edit: And we do know what happens when ultralisks and marines fight.
We are arguing from a position using FACTS. You are arguing using theory crafting. This is where the argument is flawed.
We are NOT theorycrafting.
I watched the VOD very very closely.
17:48 -> 2 marines at Flash natural
17:53 -> 1 round of marines exiting rax through mini map
18:10 -> 2 marines and round of marines reinforce. This is the army that currently resides at Flash natural at blackout time.
18:17 -> 1 round of rines exiting rax
18:34 -> 1 round of rines exiting rax plus 2 science vessels.
At time of blackout Flash has (all supported by FACTS from the VOD):
- 12 Marines / 9 medics for Flash at 9 expo - 20 marines at natural - 5 vessels at 9 expo - 2 vessels or 2 dropships at natural (wasn't sure which unit but 100% 2 units exited the starport in Vod)
Between 18:00 -18:30 Jaedong produced 2 ultras / 6 lings / 1 defiler
So Flash takes another 30 seconds to reinforce his 9 with his remaining troops. That gives Jaedong another 30 seconds to continously stream units to his 7 base (which he is in fact doing).
On January 25 2010 23:02 dmfg wrote: There are really 2 arguments here - "how should KeSPA have made their decision" and "given a decision making process, what conclusion should KeSPA have come to ".
Looks like the main camps for the first, the decision making process, are
1. use a judgement call with no pre-defined line on what the threshhold for awarding a win is (what they appear to have done)
2. have a pre-instated rule that any game that ends without a GG gets replayed (not an option in this case since this rule doesn't exist)
3. always award the game to whoever is "ahead" based on some pre-defined criteria (again, not an option in this case since this doesn't exist)
3 just sounds stupid. 2 would probably be more fair if this policy were in place to begin with - but since their standard policy appears to be 1, I don't think it would have been fair to switch their policy just for this one game.
I'm not even going to try and argue what the right decision should be, even assuming that they must decide using policy 1..
Nobody has argued 3, and 2 is not fair, its blind. The only fairness about it is that you dont have your fate in another mans hands. The decision is just premade.
Kwark, you dont want to read other opinion(you posted 4 times in this page and a couple of double posts before), you're centered in your own view and its worthless try to argue with you, you are posting nearly alone now. Men, maybe you are right in a technical issue, but you are basing your opinion in a careful revision of the vod (without crowd, time and work pressure), and the opinion of other people, and maybe other stuff. Kespa judges just take 30 minutes to make a decision, and maybe less than that, they was without replay, and just dont find the better show solution, its not only a game, was thousdands of people watching the finals, and they ruined all. A rematch, (maybe with map decision of JD, because of the possible advantage) would be a better option than tear apart the final, they showed a lack of improvisation and wits.
And Kwark, your opinion about the result of the game its not the only one, days after the tourney are not a clearly solution nor a certainly ending of the game. Never will be without a replay, and without a "gg" indeed. You really believe that in these 30 mins was a ABSOLUTELY GOOD decision by the judges? I dont think so. They need watch other sports, they are in underwear yet.
On January 26 2010 00:39 No_eL wrote: Kespa judges just take 30 minutes to make a decision, and maybe less than that, they was without replay, and just dont find the better show solution, its not only a game, was thousdands of people watching the finals, and they ruined all. A rematch, (maybe with map decision of JD, because of the possible advantage) would be a better option than tear apart the final, they showed a lack of improvisation and wits.
Yes, they made their decision quickly, which was of great importance. Being a player just sitting there, alone with your own thoughts not knowing what will happen is horrible and should be avoided.
How many people watching, what map a potential re-match will be played on, what type of builds they were using should all be of no interest in their decision making. The only question they need to focus on is "Is Jadongs advantage so great that it can justify giving him the win?". They can´t be "creative" in their ruling, if they say it is a rematch but Jaedong is picking the map, they acknowledge he had a big enough advantage, but do not give him the win. It is flawed. Either the advantage is judged big enough, or it isn't. You can't have a fuzzy grey area. "Re-match on same map, but Flash starts with only 3 SCVs", that would look great.
On January 26 2010 00:39 No_eL wrote: Kwark, you dont want to read other opinion
You're right, I don't want opinions or hypotheticals. I want to read someone saying "this is what I think and this is what you can see at the vod at XX:XX that backs it up".
That is what has been missing from all the pro Flash comments. They just talk about things they don't know and create elaborate hypotheticals without basing them in the things that we do know and can prove.
And even IF there was a 1% chance, 10% chance, or 15% chance of Flash winning it, it makes no difference, KESPA rules are the rules.
KESPA declared Julyzerg the winner vs Bisu when Julyzerg was the favorite to win after a Bisu disconnect.
No regame.
KESPA declares Jaedong winner vs Flash when Jaedong has the resource / economy advantage.
No regame.
All we have to argue is whether or not Jaedong had advantage to seal the game. If there is enough of an advantage to seal the game, than GG. We don't need to prove 99.99% victory, we only need to prove a strong advantage.
Is that unfair? Sure as hell it's unfair for Flash. But does it matter? No it does not matter, the rules are the rules.
On January 26 2010 02:04 Tien wrote: Is that unfair? Sure as hell it's unfair for Flash. But does it matter? No it does not matter, the rules are the rules.
There's nothing more to argue.
Case closed.
I hate to say, but that is quite an obnoxious comment with respect to Flash. For starters, Flash is potentially giving up his later career aspirations (ie. University) to pursue his current profession. The time he spends training towards Starcraft could possibly be used for his studies and future career. For all we know, professional esports could possibly fade away if people lose interest in Starcraft and Starcraft 2 does not resurrect the professional esports scene. There is no guarantee he will be able to make a living off of Starcraft in 5 years time.
Thus, if he is sacrificing his career, and his family is allowing him to sacrifice his career, then it all due respect, rulings like this from KESPA need to be made as fair as possible as money is on the line - money that feeds Flash, and money that feeds his family.
Do you know why his dad was so angry? His dad knew perfectly well that they lost tens of thousands of dollar on that one ruling - and that was money that the family could use. Add on top that top players like Boxer and July could only stay on top for a few years in their prime, and it hurts that much more if they cannot make as much money as they can while they are in their prime.
We're not talking about filthy rich Major League Baseball players here that make millions and could probably lose a couple of million here or there. We're talking about esport athletes that already earn less than University graduates and even a good professional Starcraft player may not earn enough financially to help his family.
On January 26 2010 02:04 Tien wrote: Is that unfair? Sure as hell it's unfair for Flash. But does it matter? No it does not matter, the rules are the rules.
There's nothing more to argue.
Case closed.
I hate to say, but that is quite an obnoxious comment with respect to Flash. For starters, Flash is potentially giving up his later career aspirations (ie. University) to pursue his current profession. The time he spends training towards Starcraft could possibly be used for his studies and future career. For all we know, professional esports could possibly fade away if people lose interest in Starcraft and Starcraft 2 does not resurrect the professional esports scene. There is no guarantee he will be able to make a living off of Starcraft in 5 years time.
Thus, if he is sacrificing his career, and his family is allowing him to sacrifice his career, then it all due respect, rulings like this from KESPA need to be made as fair as possible as money is on the line - money that feeds Flash, and money that feeds his family.
Do you know why his dad was so angry? His dad knew perfectly well that they lost tens of thousands of dollar on that one ruling - and that was money that the family could use. Add on top that top players like Boxer and July could only stay on top for a few years in their prime, and it hurts that much more if they cannot make as much money as they can while they are in their prime.
We're not talking about filthy rich Major League Baseball players here that make millions and could probably lose a couple of million here or there. We're talking about esport athletes that already earn less than University graduates and even a good professional Starcraft player may not earn enough financially to help his family.
What does this have to do with anything... you're essentially saying you disagree with the guy and then writing an essay about how you agree with him
On January 26 2010 02:04 Tien wrote: Is that unfair? Sure as hell it's unfair for Flash. But does it matter? No it does not matter, the rules are the rules.
There's nothing more to argue.
Case closed.
I hate to say, but that is quite an obnoxious comment with respect to Flash. For starters, Flash is potentially giving up his later career aspirations (ie. University) to pursue his current profession. The time he spends training towards Starcraft could possibly be used for his studies and future career. For all we know, professional esports could possibly fade away if people lose interest in Starcraft and Starcraft 2 does not resurrect the professional esports scene. There is no guarantee he will be able to make a living off of Starcraft in 5 years time.
Thus, if he is sacrificing his career, and his family is allowing him to sacrifice his career, then it all due respect, rulings like this from KESPA need to be made as fair as possible as money is on the line - money that feeds Flash, and money that feeds his family.
Do you know why his dad was so angry? His dad knew perfectly well that they lost tens of thousands of dollar on that one ruling - and that was money that the family could use. Add on top that top players like Boxer and July could only stay on top for a few years in their prime, and it hurts that much more if they cannot make as much money as they can while they are in their prime.
We're not talking about filthy rich Major League Baseball players here that make millions and could probably lose a couple of million here or there. We're talking about esport athletes that already earn less than University graduates and even a good professional Starcraft player may not earn enough financially to help his family.
too many things wrong with this. just to start he doesn't earn less than university graduates. second its not like they need the money that is an assumption unless they are wasting money left and right. I believe he makes 200 million won a year which is about 160 thousand a year? Not to consider the fact that korea is NOT an expensive place to live in...
Let say there would have been regame on same map but this time Jaedong decides to let say attack his own drones at beginning. Then after one drone dies types "gg" and leaves because his mad about regame decision.
KeSPA would give win to Flash and perhaps warning to Jaedong. What would fans say?
Who says that Jaedong plays his best A- (S-) game? I would be pissed of if suddenly I had to regame already won game.
WORST possible situation would have been if KeSPA asked players what to do. 100% Jaedong has to say regame because otherwise he would lose respect of fans. This is why KeSPA doesn't ask players what to anymore. We don't want anymore Firefist vs Backho incident.
you are obsessed, you invest hours, maybe days to demonstrate that your point its good, but you re wasting your time, your analysis its fine, the problem its not Kwark, its Kespa ruling system, its the show itself, the context where the decision was made, that night, the fans ( all of us watching the finals). The show was screwed. The entertaining its beyond the maths and statistics, you can get fun running test, plotting maps, reading data about the game, but the show its different...
You need take some air men, u need go to a bar with friends, get a girl and watch a soccer final, and make the difference between play a soccer simulation in your PS3 alone in your home.
On January 26 2010 04:28 No_eL wrote: you are obsessed, you invest hours, maybe days to demonstrate that your point its good, but you re wasting your time, your analysis its fine, the problem its not Kwark, its Kespa ruling system, its the show itself, the context where the decision was made, that night, the fans ( all of us watching the finals). The show was screwed. The entertaining its beyond the maths and statistics, you can get fun running test, plotting maps, reading data about the game, but the show its different...
You need take some air men, u need go to a bar with friends, get a girl and watch a soccer final, and make the difference between play a soccer simulation in your PS3 alone in your home.
You need to shut up as your whole analysis involves no facts, just stupid useless fluff.
On January 26 2010 04:28 No_eL wrote: you are obsessed, you invest hours, maybe days to demonstrate that your point its good, but you re wasting your time, your analysis its fine, the problem its not Kwark, its Kespa ruling system, its the show itself, the context where the decision was made, that night, the fans ( all of us watching the finals). The show was screwed. The entertaining its beyond the maths and statistics, you can get fun running test, plotting maps, reading data about the game, but the show its different...
You need take some air men, u need go to a bar with friends, get a girl and watch a soccer final, and make the difference between play a soccer simulation in your PS3 alone in your home.
You need to shut up as your whole analysis involves no facts, just stupid useless fluff.
And you're bm and dont have respect. My "useless fluff" its just another opinion. Facts are not only maths, youre not a fucking robot.
On January 26 2010 02:04 Tien wrote: Is that unfair? Sure as hell it's unfair for Flash. But does it matter? No it does not matter, the rules are the rules.
There's nothing more to argue.
Case closed.
The only unfair thing in all this story is that Jaedong manage to convincingly beat the best TvZ player ever on a T favored mappool and will never get all the credits he deserve for this just because of that stupid power outage incident.
On January 26 2010 04:28 No_eL wrote: you are obsessed, you invest hours, maybe days to demonstrate that your point its good, but you re wasting your time, your analysis its fine, the problem its not Kwark, its Kespa ruling system, its the show itself, the context where the decision was made, that night, the fans ( all of us watching the finals). The show was screwed. The entertaining its beyond the maths and statistics, you can get fun running test, plotting maps, reading data about the game, but the show its different...
You need take some air men, u need go to a bar with friends, get a girl and watch a soccer final, and make the difference between play a soccer simulation in your PS3 alone in your home.
You need to shut up as your whole analysis involves no facts, just stupid useless fluff.
And you're bm and dont have respect. My "useless fluff" its just another opinion. Facts are not only maths, youre not a fucking robot.
And opinions unsubstantiated by facts are worthless. Feel free to say what you think. But unless you say why you think it then it's just useless fluff. You have to back it up.
"You need take some air men, u need go to a bar with friends, get a girl and watch a soccer final, and make the difference between play a soccer simulation in your PS3 alone in your home."
Calling me BM? You need to get some real facts to counter the arguments. Whenever anyone brings this up, all I hear fromt he Flash fanboys is:
*cricket* *cricket*
Instead of making crap up and prolonging a discussion that has been beaten to death, bring something new to the table.
On January 26 2010 02:04 Tien wrote: Is that unfair? Sure as hell it's unfair for Flash. But does it matter? No it does not matter, the rules are the rules.
There's nothing more to argue.
Case closed.
I hate to say, but that is quite an obnoxious comment with respect to Flash. For starters, Flash is potentially giving up his later career aspirations (ie. University) to pursue his current profession. The time he spends training towards Starcraft could possibly be used for his studies and future career. For all we know, professional esports could possibly fade away if people lose interest in Starcraft and Starcraft 2 does not resurrect the professional esports scene. There is no guarantee he will be able to make a living off of Starcraft in 5 years time.
Thus, if he is sacrificing his career, and his family is allowing him to sacrifice his career, then it all due respect, rulings like this from KESPA need to be made as fair as possible as money is on the line - money that feeds Flash, and money that feeds his family.
Do you know why his dad was so angry? His dad knew perfectly well that they lost tens of thousands of dollar on that one ruling - and that was money that the family could use. Add on top that top players like Boxer and July could only stay on top for a few years in their prime, and it hurts that much more if they cannot make as much money as they can while they are in their prime.
We're not talking about filthy rich Major League Baseball players here that make millions and could probably lose a couple of million here or there. We're talking about esport athletes that already earn less than University graduates and even a good professional Starcraft player may not earn enough financially to help his family.
I agree with you. It's unfair. I also agree these progamers are sacrificing their youths for this dream.
But every progamer is doing this. Flash won OSL, Flash has a great salary. You can't single out the sacrifices that every single progamer makes and than justify a re-game on that basis.
If you want to feel sorry for someone, feel sorry for the hundreds of other progamers that practice just as much and accomplish nothing.
On January 26 2010 02:04 Tien wrote: Is that unfair? Sure as hell it's unfair for Flash. But does it matter? No it does not matter, the rules are the rules.
There's nothing more to argue.
Case closed.
The only unfair thing in all this story is that Jaedong manage to convincingly beat the best TvZ player ever on a T favored mappool and will never get all the credits he deserve for this just because of that stupid power outage incident.
The only unfair thing in all this story is that Jaedong manage to convincingly beat the best TvZ player ever on a T favored mappool and will never get all the credits he deserve for this just because of that stupid power outage incident.
On January 23 2010 21:12 SkyTheUnknown wrote: The person really robbed here was Jaedong. To take a win, on heavily favored Terran map, against someone so deadly against Zerg as Flash, that would have been JD's greatest accomplishment, or one of his greatest. The fact that JD couldn't get Flash to type gg - that is just extremely dis-satisfactory.
Second quote is from the LR thread, but I feel like more people should see these.
The only unfair thing in all this story is that Jaedong manage to convincingly beat the best TvZ player ever on a T favored mappool and will never get all the credits he deserve for this just because of that stupid power outage incident.
On January 23 2010 21:12 SkyTheUnknown wrote: The person really robbed here was Jaedong. To take a win, on heavily favored Terran map, against someone so deadly against Zerg as Flash, that would have been JD's greatest accomplishment, or one of his greatest. The fact that JD couldn't get Flash to type gg - that is just extremely dis-satisfactory.
Second quote is from the LR thread, but I feel like more people should see these.
No. Everyone was robbed (Flash, Jaedong and all the spectators). That's the thing. Everyone lost. Please take off Jaedong glasses.
The only unfair thing in all this story is that Jaedong manage to convincingly beat the best TvZ player ever on a T favored mappool and will never get all the credits he deserve for this just because of that stupid power outage incident.
On January 23 2010 21:12 SkyTheUnknown wrote: The person really robbed here was Jaedong. To take a win, on heavily favored Terran map, against someone so deadly against Zerg as Flash, that would have been JD's greatest accomplishment, or one of his greatest. The fact that JD couldn't get Flash to type gg - that is just extremely dis-satisfactory.
Second quote is from the LR thread, but I feel like more people should see these.
No. Everyone was robbed (Flash, Jaedong and all the spectators). That's the thing. Everyone lost. Please take off Jaedong glasses.
But Jaedong lost the most. A lot of people don't understand that.
Sad to see ppl still discussing about Jaedong's performance or Flash's chances of not losing that match...MOVE ON PPL Decisions were already taken. Not sure whats behind all this last MSL thing tho anyways...ITS DONE
The only unfair thing in all this story is that Jaedong manage to convincingly beat the best TvZ player ever on a T favored mappool and will never get all the credits he deserve for this just because of that stupid power outage incident.
On January 23 2010 21:12 SkyTheUnknown wrote: The person really robbed here was Jaedong. To take a win, on heavily favored Terran map, against someone so deadly against Zerg as Flash, that would have been JD's greatest accomplishment, or one of his greatest. The fact that JD couldn't get Flash to type gg - that is just extremely dis-satisfactory.
Second quote is from the LR thread, but I feel like more people should see these.
No. Everyone was robbed (Flash, Jaedong and all the spectators). That's the thing. Everyone lost. Please take off Jaedong glasses.
But Jaedong lost the most. A lot of people don't understand that.
lol jaedong definitely did not get the shitty end of the stick here
tbh I don't think Jaedong gives a damn what the flash fanboys think thinking he got a "free" (free my ass he was going to win anyway and was an incredible game as it was) and how they say he "doesn't" deserve it. So you guys can argue over this all you want but jaedong deserves it and thus he received.
For the post saying about flash who could be using his time for school will Jaedong could be doing the same thing along with every other progamer out there, that was a horrible argument/comment.
Well Steve, to a certain degree I guess he did. You know JD's mindset, he wants to destroy everyone and he wants to do so fair and square, however looking at JD's face after game 4 concluded it KINDA looked like JD was not really satisfied with what happened there. Of course, he did definitely not get the shittier end, but it might just have felt shitty for him as well! Edit: Ofc your post in the relevance was kinda true since HE said JD got the worst of it, but yea we both know he was wrong - and you were only to like 95% right? :D
The only unfair thing in all this story is that Jaedong manage to convincingly beat the best TvZ player ever on a T favored mappool and will never get all the credits he deserve for this just because of that stupid power outage incident.
On January 23 2010 21:12 SkyTheUnknown wrote: The person really robbed here was Jaedong. To take a win, on heavily favored Terran map, against someone so deadly against Zerg as Flash, that would have been JD's greatest accomplishment, or one of his greatest. The fact that JD couldn't get Flash to type gg - that is just extremely dis-satisfactory.
Second quote is from the LR thread, but I feel like more people should see these.
No. Everyone was robbed (Flash, Jaedong and all the spectators). That's the thing. Everyone lost. Please take off Jaedong glasses.
But Jaedong lost the most. A lot of people don't understand that.
lol jaedong definitely did not get the shitty end of the stick here
Damn right he got the money and the title lol, was ahead but it wasn't over so i think he did prety good out of this.
On January 26 2010 14:41 iNfeRnaL wrote: Well Steve, to a certain degree I guess he did. You know JD's mindset, he wants to destroy everyone and he wants to do so fair and square, however looking at JD's face after game 4 concluded it KINDA looked like JD was not really satisfied with what happened there.
He was the same way after game 5 vs Bisu on Andromeda too.
But that's more because Jaedong doesn't respect his own skills (mental stability) quite enough to be content with winning just because of that. He even wants his opponents to play their best, cause else defeating them has no bigger meaning to them. And that's what makes a true baller out of JD!
On January 26 2010 14:40 blade55555 wrote: For the post saying about flash who could be using his time for school will Jaedong could be doing the same thing along with every other progamer out there, that was a horrible argument/comment.
By your logic, since Jaedong got tens of thousands dollars more than Flash from an unfair ruling, maybe that will go towards helping to pay Jaedong's tuition for school in the future whereas Flash got the short end of the stick?
Well, the latest Flash interview is a total contradiction to everything the op has analyzed (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=110899). Flash says in the interview:
"I'm not saying this because I lost, but I seriously was at a decent situation at that point. That's why it made me so depressed. After the finals a lot of people told me while practicing that “You were at a decent situation” which made me angrier."
Two things from this quote:
1) Flash believed he was in a good situation when the blackout hit, contrary to all the poor analysis in this thread that claimed he wasn't
2) He then says, "After the finals a lot of people told me while practicing that 'You were at a decent situation'" "A lot of people while practicing" implies other pros he was practicing with.
The op's analysis in this thread could not have been anymore short sighted.
On January 27 2010 07:18 StarcraftMan wrote: Well, the latest Flash interview is a total contradiction to everything the op has analyzed (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=110899). Flash says in the interview:
"I'm not saying this because I lost, but I seriously was at a decent situation at that point. That's why it made me so depressed. After the finals a lot of people told me while practicing that “You were at a decent situation” which made me angrier."
Two things from this quote:
1) Flash believed he was in a good situation when the blackout hit, contrary to all the poor analysis in this thread that claimed he wasn't
2) He then says, "After the finals a lot of people told me while practicing that 'You were at a decent situation'" "A lot of people while practicing" implies other pros he was practicing with.
The op's analysis in this thread could not have been anymore short sighted.
brilliant analysis! the other guy and people consoling him say that he was not boned, that is irrefutable evidence that disproves "the poor analysis in this thread." The mods should close this thread and purge it for spreading such horrible lies!
For the record, I am neither supporting nor condemning Kespa's decision. I just think it's funny that you honest to god believe that because Flash believes he was in a decent situation, that invalidates the tireless efforts to objectively analyze the scenario in this thread. Just think about how often you feel like you're doing fine in a game of BW just to have your opponent roll you 3 minutes later.
On January 27 2010 07:18 StarcraftMan wrote: Well, the latest Flash interview is a total contradiction to everything the op has analyzed (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=110899). Flash says in the interview:
"I'm not saying this because I lost, but I seriously was at a decent situation at that point. That's why it made me so depressed. After the finals a lot of people told me while practicing that “You were at a decent situation” which made me angrier."
Two things from this quote:
1) Flash believed he was in a good situation when the blackout hit, contrary to all the poor analysis in this thread that claimed he wasn't
2) He then says, "After the finals a lot of people told me while practicing that 'You were at a decent situation'" "A lot of people while practicing" implies other pros he was practicing with.
The op's analysis in this thread could not have been anymore short sighted.
So Flash's practice partners (and friends) didn't tell him " sorry Flash you were done"... of course they will tell him he was still in it, Especially if he tells them he thought he was. Who would go up to FLash (after this heartbreak) and actually tell him he LOST and get over it. There is some good analysis in this thread showing the advantage in favor of Jaedong. But it's not that far of a stretch for the hottest gamer in the world to think "i was in a decent situation" even though he was losing. A decision had to be made.
On January 27 2010 07:31 Mogwai wrote: brilliant analysis! the other guy and people consoling him say that he was not boned, that is irrefutable evidence that disproves "the poor analysis in this thread." The mods should close this thread and purge it for spreading such horrible lies!
For the record, I am neither supporting nor condemning Kespa's decision. I just think it's funny that you honest to god believe that because Flash believes he was in a decent situation, that invalidates the tireless efforts to objectively analyze the scenario in this thread. Just think about how often you feel like you're doing fine in a game of BW just to have your opponent roll you 3 minutes later.
Yes, and all these people are a better player than Flash, ROFL. So they must know the situtation better than Flash, who was at the console, who was the one playing the game, who knew what was currently being built, and who simply understands the game better than any of these so called "theory craft" analysts.
The funniest part is all these "theory craft" analysts claim Flash was seconds away from calling GG when the truth is, Flash was not even close to calling GG. It shows you how wrong the "theory analysts" are!
On January 27 2010 07:51 TwoStep wrote: Flash did not have complete information. Also, motbob is a lot lessed biased toward Flash than Flash or his friends are.
You know, when some "theory craft" analysts in this thread claim that the game was 99.9% in Jaedong's favor, you would think Flash would not claim he was in a "decent situation" when the blackout came. Because a 0.01% chance of winning is not in a "decent situation."
On January 27 2010 07:31 Mogwai wrote: brilliant analysis! the other guy and people consoling him say that he was not boned, that is irrefutable evidence that disproves "the poor analysis in this thread." The mods should close this thread and purge it for spreading such horrible lies!
For the record, I am neither supporting nor condemning Kespa's decision. I just think it's funny that you honest to god believe that because Flash believes he was in a decent situation, that invalidates the tireless efforts to objectively analyze the scenario in this thread. Just think about how often you feel like you're doing fine in a game of BW just to have your opponent roll you 3 minutes later.
Yes, and all these people are a better player than Flash, ROFL. So they must know the situtation better than Flash, who was at the console, who was the one playing the game, who knew what was currently being built, and who simply understands the game better than any of these so called "theory craft" analysts.
The funniest part is all these "theory craft" analysts claim Flash was seconds away from calling GG when the truth is, Flash was not even close to calling GG. It shows you how wrong the "theory analysts" are!
Do you even play Starcraft? Maybe you should watch the game and pay attention to all the analysis that has been done instead of just saying "Oh Flash was in a good position because he said so. You guys are all wrong."
On January 27 2010 07:31 Mogwai wrote: brilliant analysis! the other guy and people consoling him say that he was not boned, that is irrefutable evidence that disproves "the poor analysis in this thread." The mods should close this thread and purge it for spreading such horrible lies!
For the record, I am neither supporting nor condemning Kespa's decision. I just think it's funny that you honest to god believe that because Flash believes he was in a decent situation, that invalidates the tireless efforts to objectively analyze the scenario in this thread. Just think about how often you feel like you're doing fine in a game of BW just to have your opponent roll you 3 minutes later.
Yes, and all these people are a better player than Flash, ROFL. So they must know the situtation better than Flash, who was at the console, who was the one playing the game, who knew what was currently being built, and who simply understands the game better than any of these so called "theory craft" analysts.
The funniest part is all these "theory craft" analysts claim Flash was seconds away from calling GG when the truth is, Flash was not even close to calling GG. It shows you how wrong the "theory analysts" are!
Do you even play Starcraft? Maybe you should watch the game and pay attention to all the analysis that has been done instead of just saying "Oh Flash was in a good position because he said so. You guys are all wrong."
of course he plays starcraft. his name is STARCRAFTMAN.
On January 27 2010 07:51 TwoStep wrote: Flash did not have complete information. Also, motbob is a lot lessed biased toward Flash than Flash or his friends are.
I'm sure Flash and his practice partners/coaches watched the VOD so they have all the info we have + actually being in the game.
And I also like how Flash and all of his practice partners (he has many practice partners outside of KTR) are apparently so biased/clearly didn't watch the game that Motbob's OP is obviously more informed. :/.
I really think if Flash felt his chances were as low as some said (99.9% obviously a huge exhadduration) then he would just say "yeah I was probably going to lose but even then the shock of the refs choice surprised me so much that blah blah blah" instead of what he actually did say.
On January 27 2010 08:04 Vasoline73 wrote: [I really think if Flash felt his chances were as low as some said (99.9% obviously a huge exhadduration) then he would just say "yeah I was probably going to lose but even then the shock of the refs choice surprised me so much that blah blah blah" instead of what he actually did say.
Yup, that's my point. The op claims that Flash had a 15% chance to win which is quite ridiculous because Flash would have least acknowledged Jaedong had the advantage if he had a a measlely 15% chance to win. Flash's statement clearly shows he was comfortable with his "decent situation" before the blackout and there was alot of game left to be played - contrary to all the "theory craft" analysts who claim there was no game left to be played and it was a 99.9% done deal.
The worst part about it is, Flash mentally conceded the series after the ruling by KESPA, as per his comments:
"When they decided that Jaedong won the match, I knew deep down inside I will lose the finals. Any progamer in my shoes would've lost the whole thing too after the decision."
On January 27 2010 08:14 StarcraftMan wrote: The worst part about it is, Flash mentally conceded the series after the ruling by KESPA, as per his comments:
"When they decided that Jaedong won the match, I knew deep down inside I will lose the finals. Any progamer in my shoes would've lost the whole thing too after the decision."
Game 4 was just a formality at that point.
Nice job quoting from an interview but then conveniently missing what he himself had to say about game 4.
- At game 4 you played worse than usual. Was it because of you previous game? ▲ The whole decision done by kespa really got me down. However, I cannot blame my 3rd set for losing the 4th set. Regardless of the outside factors, 4th set was a pure loss. That is why after the 4th set I went up to Jaedong hyung and congratulated him as soon as possible. But I still felt empty because of the refs
So yes, because Flash is a better pro-gamer than we are, our objective analysis goes to shit. Because he SAID he was in a decent decision, then he clearly was, as he clearly was not running out of minerals, JD clearly lost his base at 7, and Flash was clearly about to roll over JD with his invincible 5 base macro. >_> Look, the fact of the matter is that Flash was in a horrible position, not decent, not bad, horrible. Z was about to run off 6 gas, his all-in had failed, he ran out of minerals for his main (soon his nat), and needed all he could to defend his min-only natural. He had ~32 marines, while JD had defilers+ultralisks with 5/2 ups. But hey, what do I know? Clearly, objectivity goes out the door compared to Flash's opinion. I mean, after all, the Pros are always right. ALWAYS.
The thing is Flash had no knowledge of JD's situation. And obviously players like to think they're still in the game for as long as they can. No player would have gg'd if they were in Flash's position - think about it, you killed his third and came very close to killing the double gas. In Flash's mind, he was doing ok, just needed to regroup for possibly another attack. But then you have to realize that he was soon going to be on only 6 mineral patches while JD had 5 gas and was still expanding when the game ended.
The problem with such a major decision is that without info on food count, and resources it is strongly speculative. Yes jaedong had a 2 base lead on flash and more gas but A) the 7 o clock was being constantly harassed and was not at full drone saturation and B) the observer never click on the 4 o clock and so there is no way to know how saturated this base was either.
A theory.... considering flash was relentlessly attacking jaedong's expansion I would not be surprised if JD focused mainly on trying to pump troops from his 5 hatcheries rather than drones to try to keep up with flash's non stop m&m vessels.
At 18:50 looking at the mini map flash was still streaming a large force 5 seconds before the black out (both mnm and vessels) so he may not have had the same input but he was still maintaining a good output from his banked resources. At the same moment the observers are looking at jaedong's troops streaming in to the 7 oclock and it seems to be 4 zerglings 2 ultras and 4 scourge, a rather small force for a 4 base zerg woudn't you say?? To be honest army wise it seems pretty tied, I would say the key would be the micro of the scourge vs science vessels. If flash decided to expand to the 12 oclock it would be hard for JD to break it as his army would have to travel a long distance to reach the new base and it would leave him exposed to a counter on his many under-protected bases. This is just my theory.
As I said in the beginning it is all circumstantial, for this reason i believe it was a mistake to simply give the advantage to JD without solid evidence to back it up.
On January 27 2010 11:02 QuakerOats wrote: The thing is Flash had no knowledge of JD's situation. And obviously players like to think they're still in the game for as long as they can. No player would have gg'd if they were in Flash's position - think about it, you killed his third and came very close to killing the double gas. In Flash's mind, he was doing ok, just needed to regroup for possibly another attack. But then you have to realize that he was soon going to be on only 6 mineral patches while JD had 5 gas and was still expanding when the game ended.
On January 28 2010 11:55 gmsts wrote: The problem with such a major decision is that without info on food count, and resources it is strongly speculative. Yes jaedong had a 2 base lead on flash and more gas but A) the 7 o clock was being constantly harassed and was not at full drone saturation and B) the observer never click on the 4 o clock and so there is no way to know how saturated this base was either.
A theory.... considering flash was relentlessly attacking jaedong's expansion I would not be surprised if JD focused mainly on trying to pump troops from his 5 hatcheries rather than drones to try to keep up with flash's non stop m&m vessels.
At 18:50 looking at the mini map flash was still streaming a large force 5 seconds before the black out (both mnm and vessels) so he may not have had the same input but he was still maintaining a good output from his banked resources. At the same moment the observers are looking at jaedong's troops streaming in to the 7 oclock and it seems to be 4 zerglings 2 ultras and 4 scourge, a rather small force for a 4 base zerg woudn't you say?? To be honest army wise it seems pretty tied, I would say the key would be the micro of the scourge vs science vessels. If flash decided to expand to the 12 oclock it would be hard for JD to break it as his army would have to travel a long distance to reach the new base and it would leave him exposed to a counter on his many under-protected bases. This is just my theory.
As I said in the beginning it is all circumstantial, for this reason i believe it was a mistake to simply give the advantage to JD without solid evidence to back it up.
Right before the blackout Jaedong had a couple ultra's some lings like you said with some scourge and 2 defilers with energy. Also if you look at the minimap flash was retreating back to his mineral only.
Firstly... Jaedong's 3rd gas at the 3 o'clock position isn't up and operational until 15min 40sec... so other than about 3.5 minutes of mining time on the top right base Jaedong has been on 2 gas to Flash's 2 gas. So in other words for roughly 12 minutes of the game Jaedong was economically behind.
His 4th gas at the 7 o'clock position didn't start mining until 16min 20sec... and JD pulled his drones off gas at 16min 35sec to help fend off Flash's army (which is either a huge mistake by JD, or more likely a testament to the fact that he's running low on reinforcing units)...
As for his supposed 5th gas the hatchery at the 1 o'clock position didn't even finish until 18min 33sec and no extractor had even been started... so thats at least another 40 seconds, from whenever it starts to build that the gas is up.
According to EvoChamber's top notch analysis...
Flash's] first refinery finished at 3:20, his second refinery at 7:40. Gas mines at 100 units every 20 seconds. This leaves Flash at the time of the blackout with 400 gas left in his main geyser and 1700 gas left at his natural geyser.
However, if you look at both sides of the coin... [Jaedong's] first refinery finished at 3:40, his second refinery at 4:40. Gas mines at 100 units every 20 seconds. This leaves Jaedong at the time of the blackout with 500 gas left in his main geyser and 800 gas left in his natural geyser.
Therefore in just over 2.5 minutes Jaedong would be down 2 geysers. Moreover, it's important to note that Zerg Ultra/Ling + Defilers are more than twice as gas demanding as SK Terran.
By my count Flash killed 22 Ultralisks, 9 Mutalisks, 2 Defilers and about a control group or more of Scourge (albeit most of them died killing Science Vessels)... not factoring in the 2 Ultralisks that were at practically no health, and all the gas intensive upgrades... Jaedong had spent over 5000 gas... which is the equivalent of 20 minutes on 3 bases... however, for the first 3 minutes Jaedong was on zero gas... and other than the final few minutes... and another few minutes when his top right base was mining gas... Jaedong spent most of the roughly 20 minute game on 2 geysers. In other words, for about 12 minutes of game, Jaedong was behind. Not only that but, once you factor in all the upgrades (probably close to 1.5-2k gas) and the gas intensive units that were still alive (at least 3 Ultras, 2 defilers, and a bunch of scourge... i.e. ~1000 gas)... Jaedong was very very low on gas.
Furthermore, if you notice on the minimap in Flash's base where his ramp is... you will notice a steady stream of units rallying from his Barracks to his natural expansion every 20 seconds. Also you will notice that every 80 seconds you will see 2 Science Vessels rallying from his Starports, to his natural expansion. At 18min and 18seconds you will see that his Barracks produce approximately 12 units (based on the fact that Flash had 12 production Barracks at his main) that rally to his natural expo... and at 18min and 38seconds you will see the same thing... in this time if you look closely there are also 2 Science Vessels that are produced and head to the same rally point.
You can claim that Flash was retreating at the end, however... if you notice very closely at the final split seconds of the match, there are a group of units about to leave Flash's base. Therefore it is logical to assume that he was only backing off his force to regroup with the reinforcements before initiating the assault once again. Counting the 3 vessels, 13 marines and 8 medics that Flash had outside of JD's bottom left base... and the ~24 units and 2 Science Vessels he had at his natural expansion... it is easy to assume that 39 marines, 8 medics, and 5 science vessels (2 of which would have had enough energy to irradiate) could have beaten Jaedong's rag-tag army of 3 Ultras (2 of which were one foot in the grave), 6 zerglings, and 2 defilers... with 2 support sunkens.
Granted I am a big Jaedong fan and was cheering for him... and who knows, maybe he could have pulled it off... reinforced his small army with say 12 - 20 zerglings and gotten really lucky... or sacrificed his bottom left base to counter Flash's new expansion... but the fact of the matter is that not only is it pretty absurd to say that Jaedong had an 85% chance to win... it would be generous to give him 50/50.
With no map control and a very small standing army, Flash could and would have expanded very easily... and once the bottom left base fell Jaedong would have been behind yet again.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c372/motbob/JDFLASH1.png)
![[image loading]](http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c372/motbob/JDFLASH2.png)
![[image loading]](http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/9273/armykn.jpg)
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![[image loading]](http://i50.tinypic.com/2qvvccx.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img709.imageshack.us/i/63472114.jpg/)
ropship* scare --> Nydus (+ Mapcontrol + unlikely to happen anyway + likely to not matter at all even if he kills off a base)... He would need something like Boxer's *I drop 3 bases at once* to make his way back... Which is beyond unlikely.
