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On January 24 2010 05:24 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 05:19 .risingdragoon wrote:
Jaedong was at an advantage but it was NOT overwhelming WTF
flash had just pulled scv to his new 3rd base, his upgrades were complete and even if he had to pull back his mnm from jaedong's double gas there was still game left to be played.
MSL's fuckup is LEGENDARY here. What would you have Flash do here? He has one control group of mnm. He has one base (with 6 mineral crystals and no gas). He has 4 vessels with no energy. JD has 4 mining bases, 5 mining gases and a 5th base with a 6th gas coming. If Flash tries to attack any of those bases with his tiny army he loses his only mining expansion (as well as his army probably). If Flash camps then he's camping with pure mnm against 6 gas ultralisk. You can camp TvZ with upgraded tanks and a decent base when you take your 3rd early. You cannot camp with only mnm against ultras with swarm, especially when the zerg has a much greater gas income than you have mineral income.
Jaedong had the 3 base at his lower right and the double gas at lower left, that's 4 base. NOT 5 base or 6 gas.
Everybody wanted to watch the game played out. MSL fucked up and Flash had to give?
Regame's tough. Extend the BO5 to a BO7 then. This is BULLSHIT.
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On January 24 2010 05:32 Seraphim wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 05:28 LucasWoJ wrote:
Jaedong did fairly beat Flash in a BO5...
EDIT: That was in response to Seraphim. Wow, great response. Care to actually validate your claim?
What does he have to validate, Jaedong beat Flash 3-1. "Fairly" is just a subjective word. I don't like how the 3rd game ended as it sparked so much controversy, but the games went how they did and Jaedong won the series. That's that.
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On January 24 2010 05:35 .risingdragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 05:24 KwarK wrote:On January 24 2010 05:19 .risingdragoon wrote:
Jaedong was at an advantage but it was NOT overwhelming WTF
flash had just pulled scv to his new 3rd base, his upgrades were complete and even if he had to pull back his mnm from jaedong's double gas there was still game left to be played.
MSL's fuckup is LEGENDARY here. What would you have Flash do here? He has one control group of mnm. He has one base (with 6 mineral crystals and no gas). He has 4 vessels with no energy. JD has 4 mining bases, 5 mining gases and a 5th base with a 6th gas coming. If Flash tries to attack any of those bases with his tiny army he loses his only mining expansion (as well as his army probably). If Flash camps then he's camping with pure mnm against 6 gas ultralisk. You can camp TvZ with upgraded tanks and a decent base when you take your 3rd early. You cannot camp with only mnm against ultras with swarm, especially when the zerg has a much greater gas income than you have mineral income. Jaedong had the 3 base at his lower right and the double gas at lower left, that's 4 base. NOT 5 base or 6 gas. Everybody wanted to watch the game played out. MSL fucked up and Flash had to give? Regame's tough. Extend the BO5 to a BO7 then. This is BULLSHIT.
1.) Main
2.) Nat
3.) 3 o'clock
4.) Double Gas at 7
5.) Upper right (bolded in Kwark's original post)
The fifth was building, yes, but doesn't change the fact that if Flash retreated to his base that the fifth base (with the sixth gas) would've finished and Jaedong would take advantage of that (if he actually felt the need to, he could've just swarmed Flash's min-only if he so chose at that point).
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On January 24 2010 05:37 hasuprotoss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 05:32 Seraphim wrote:On January 24 2010 05:28 LucasWoJ wrote:
Jaedong did fairly beat Flash in a BO5...
EDIT: That was in response to Seraphim. Wow, great response. Care to actually validate your claim? What does he have to validate, Jaedong beat Flash 3-1. "Fairly" is just a subjective word. I don't like how the 3rd game ended as it sparked so much controversy, but the games went how they did and Jaedong won the series. That's that.
Yes, the score was 3:1, where Jaedong won 3 games of Starcraft while Flash won 1, but how can you say it was remotely fair for Flash (with the reasons I mentioned in my original post). If the situation didn't happen, for all we know, Flash could've won game 4 and go on to win game 5. To completely dismiss the psychological impact that situation had on Flash is completely ignorant.
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United States41638 Posts
On January 24 2010 05:35 .risingdragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 05:24 KwarK wrote:On January 24 2010 05:19 .risingdragoon wrote:
Jaedong was at an advantage but it was NOT overwhelming WTF
flash had just pulled scv to his new 3rd base, his upgrades were complete and even if he had to pull back his mnm from jaedong's double gas there was still game left to be played.
MSL's fuckup is LEGENDARY here. What would you have Flash do here? He has one control group of mnm. He has one base (with 6 mineral crystals and no gas). He has 4 vessels with no energy. JD has 4 mining bases, 5 mining gases and a 5th base with a 6th gas coming. If Flash tries to attack any of those bases with his tiny army he loses his only mining expansion (as well as his army probably). If Flash camps then he's camping with pure mnm against 6 gas ultralisk. You can camp TvZ with upgraded tanks and a decent base when you take your 3rd early. You cannot camp with only mnm against ultras with swarm, especially when the zerg has a much greater gas income than you have mineral income. Jaedong had the 3 base at his lower right and the double gas at lower left, that's 4 base. NOT 5 base or 6 gas. Everybody wanted to watch the game played out. MSL fucked up and Flash had to give? Regame's tough. Extend the BO5 to a BO7 then. This is BULLSHIT.
Take a look at 1 at the end of the vod. Tell me what you see there.
Also I like how the key bit you're trying to claim is that JaeDong was only ahead 4 bases to 1, not 5. Things are pretty desperate when the positive spin you're trying to claim is that he was only 4 bases to 1 down.
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I still think the dad/team rage after game three caused or at least contributed to  Flash's game 4 loss, as Konadora and others have asserted. 
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Uh, he took the base on the top right again right before the power outage happened. With Jaedong whittling down Flash's marine army down to a very small size, there was no way in hell Flash could have possibly shut it down at the situation he was in. Even if Flash shut down Jaedong's bottom left somehow, Jaedong would still have had 4base 4gas (his main being almost mined out, same with gas) against Flash's 3base 2gas (one base completely mined out, his second base almost mined out). But Flash was not going to be able to shut down Jaedong's bottom left, so it would have been 4base 5gas vs 3base, and taking out mined out bases and almost mined out bases, conservatively it would have been 3base 4gas vs 1base 1gas immediately after the blackout. A few minutes later it would have been 4base 5gas vs 1base 1gas.
How are you supposed to win in that situation.
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United States41638 Posts
On January 24 2010 05:42 koreasilver wrote:
Uh, he took the base on the top right again right before the power outage happened. With Jaedong whittling down Flash's marine army down to a very small size, there was no way in hell Flash could have possibly shut it down at the situation he was in. Even if Flash shut down Jaedong's bottom left somehow, Jaedong would still have had 4base 4gas (his main being almost mined out, same with gas) against Flash's 3base 2gas (one base completely mined out, his second base almost mined out). But Flash was not going to be able to shut down Jaedong's bottom left, so it would have been 4base 5gas vs 3base, and taking out mined out bases and almost mined out bases, conservatively it would have been 3base 4gas vs 1base 1gas immediately after the blackout. A few minutes later it would have been 4base 5gas vs 1base 1gas.
How are you supposed to win in that situation.
Plus Flash's gas was going to burn out right after JD's.
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Yeah well, decision to hand it to jaedong killed flash in game 4
if it's regame it might kill jaedong
so you tell me what's fair when the fuckup's at mbc
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On January 24 2010 05:06 samachking wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 04:58 AttackZerg wrote:
I just want to add, that game 4 was not flash giving up (lol). He didn't 7rax to concede, he did it because IT WORKS. He did it because jaedong abused the hell out of his 1raxCC build with 3 hat pool repeatedly(literally back to back) and then on the most macro intensive map (also the only 4 player map) jaedong opened with an overpool -> 11 hat -> into 3 hat muta play.
Here is the deal. At the level they are playing on if jaedong opens overpool and flash 1 rax cc's, jaedong will 100% never get a third gas up because of late muta, latespeedlings and late third, late carpace,lurker aspect, hive ect, the implications of that build order advantage would have flash dominting jaedong like the last time they play on FS, knowing this flash knows his 7rax is a lethal way to gain a large advantage since jaedong is forced to 12hat on this map against his powerfull 1raxcc,. Jaedong sense this and choose a build that would most likely lose to flashes strongest build , 1raxcc but beat his most likely build 7,8rax.
I wish the power hadn't gone off so jaedong could have spent another 2 minutes to win that game and then win set four (which would have played out the same way ).
Jaedong showed incredible build order courage and preparation in every game. Nada was right, flash didn't get to prepare enough just for jaedong this finals while jaedong got to only prepare for flash, that advantage was too great for him flas h to overcome! Flash and JD had the same preparation time barring Flash's 2 PL games, which were TvZ anyways so it didnt really matter. JD did destroy Flash strategically all 4 sets though and got way ahead in the mind games, which is insane considering the mind games Flash has been playing vs JD using his series vs Kwanro + his games vs hero/calm where he used aggressive all in builds to mind fuck JD in the finals making him pool first. It was truly incredible to see JD predict Flash like a open book like that, and I dont think thats getting enough attention here. This is the best Bo5 player to ever play the game, both strategically and mentally.
They did not have even close to similar practice times.
Jaedong wasn't on his proleague roster, didn't have to prepare for a TvZ vs kwanro semis And a TvP finals vs movie on protoss favored maps. On top of that he had to prepare and win two proleague games with the mindset that 'jaedong will be watching my every move'
I believe jaedong had a full extra week to work on this series over flash.
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United States41638 Posts
On January 24 2010 05:47 .risingdragoon wrote:
Yeah well, decision to hand it to jaedong killed flash in game 4
if it's regame it might kill jaedong
so you tell me what's fair when the fuckup's at mbc
I didn't realise we were awarding results based upon protecting players' fragile mental states. You should tell that to them next time a player goes 2-0 up in a bo5. That's totally unfair on the guy 0-2 down, it puts him under sick pressure to perform and often makes him choke. They should make it 1-1 to be fairer.
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United States41638 Posts
Also players know that stuff is in Kespa's hands. They should be ready to deal with it, in the same way footballers don't argue with the ref over a yellow card, even when they disagree with it. What I suspect was way worse for Flash's mental state was his father and coach going batshit insane (especially given I suspect Flash knew the game was over). That hour of being messed around and arguing and having his father dragged off and his coach threaten to forfeit him must have been hellish.
If you want to blame someone for Flash's mental state in game 4 then blame his coach and father.
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On January 24 2010 05:49 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 05:47 .risingdragoon wrote:
Yeah well, decision to hand it to jaedong killed flash in game 4
if it's regame it might kill jaedong
so you tell me what's fair when the fuckup's at mbc I didn't realise we were awarding results based upon protecting players' fragile mental states. You should tell that to them next time a player goes 2-0 up in a bo5. That's totally unfair on the guy 0-2 down, it puts him under sick pressure to perform and often makes him choke. They should make it 1-1 to be fairer.
Don't you patronize me.
BO5 is all about mental state, it was 1-1 and losing fair and square means the control of games is in your own hand.
MSL Fucked Up Beyond All Recognition on this one.
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great thread op!
JD is a monster, definitely the best player of all the time, not only by his skills, but he also got the feeling and lucky, going 3 hatch pool and 9 pool in the exactly moments. lol
Flash seemed tired, even before the match and imo he didn't play at his best, seemed tired phisically and psycologically... and JD was sooo focused to win, if they had to play 300 more games, JD would have won 99% of them.
Am I the only one who felt that way about Flash?
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If there had been no power outage, I doubt that game 4 would have played out any differently.
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On January 24 2010 05:47 .risingdragoon wrote:
Yeah well, decision to hand it to jaedong killed flash in game 4
if it's regame it might kill jaedong
so you tell me what's fair when the fuckup's at mbc
Flash prepared a 7rax for set four. He didn't decide on it then. Jaedong abused flashes build in the two previous games on terran favored maps. Do you realize how easy jaedong would have won on FS if he got away with another 3 hat pool-> muta/ling with fast +1 carp into hive? .... that map would be heaven for jaedong compare to how effective his abuse was the two previous games on maps that are HORRIBLE midgame and lategame zvt.
Jaedong took away flashes opening options in this series, flash was going 7rax in set 4 regardless.
Game 1 JD 12pool/11gas
Game 2 3 hat before pool, fake 3 hat muta into double island expo + double evo gaurdian/ultra rush.
Game 3 3 hat before pool -> 3 hat muta/ling with +1carp into fast ultra.
Game 4 overpool -> 3 hat mutalisk-> standard zvt.
Jaedongs strategic gameplan for the series made it hard for flash to abuse his aggressive versus greedy styles that he variates on zergs so well.
I still think mechanically flash is the best player in the world but jaedongs prep put him miles ahead of flash mentally. Flash showed us nothing new this series which for him and his talents just doesn't make sense.
If you didn't know who was playing in all four games it could have been hwasin,sea or flash. There was not really any of the crisp flash we've seen lately.
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Baa?21242 Posts
Correct analysis. Also just throwing it in, Jaedong was at 5-2 with 5-3 almost done assuming he was upgrading constantly. Flash was at 2-2 with no money or gas to upgrade further.
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^ Flash had finished 3-3 dude.
I'm staring at the vod and Flash plain as day has 3-3.
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On January 24 2010 06:01 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Correct analysis. Also just throwing it in, Jaedong was at 5-2 with 5-3 almost done assuming he was upgrading constantly. Flash was at 2-2 with no money or gas to upgrade further.
If flash was at 2/2 he would have already died.
He got his 2/2 when he took out top right. That is why jds 4/1 ultras were suddenly less effective.
He got 3/3 super fast ...
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Baa?21242 Posts
Um, no, it's definitely 2-2 lol, I'm looking at the Vod in the Power Underwhelming thread...
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EPT
