Don't get me wrong; I love competitive gaming. I love playing video games and watching people who are better than me stream video games. But I hate esports.
Originally an innocuous buzzword used to describe professional competitive video game playing, it has since morphed into an abomination that saps the life out of everyone in the community. Rather than a group of nerds who like playing Starcraft, we are now slaves beholden to the whims of a small minority of zealots who seek to proselytize SC2 like it's the second coming of chess.
Everything has to be done "for esports," as if we were supplicants to some otherworldly esports deity who looks down scornfully upon our every action. The idea of fun doesn't even cross anyone's mind. Everything has to be bigger, better, with a larger prize pool than the other guys. The casters have to be clean cut, wearing nice clothes, and trying as hard as humanly possible not to offend anyone. We're like the fucking Mormons! It's only a matter of time before we're forced to go door-to-door advertising for barcrafts, lest we be accused of "hurting esports" and excommunicated for our heresies.
Well I, for one, can't fucking stand it anymore. I don't care about Esports. In fact, I hope SC2 dies a swift death. I hope HotS gets delayed another year so WoL gets even more stale and even more players become disinterested. I hope we never get LAN. I hope all the sponsors pull out when they realize that marketing $200 dollar video cards to 16 year-olds too cheap to even pay for GomTV subscriptions is actually not a very good business plan. I hope Blizzard realizes they could make more money reskinning a WoW mount and selling it for 20 bucks in the virtual store than they could by making an RTS game and shunts all the funds away from SC2 and into the research and development of more sparkle ponies.
And then, when everything is gone, when all the pathetic aspirations and all the illusions that esports will ever be big or important are stripped away, we can finally get back to why we came to this website in the first place: because we like playing video games. Maybe, in the future, that video game won't be Starcraft, maybe it won't even be a Blizzard game—I'm not sure they even deserve our support anymore—but maybe, for our sake, it'll be a good game. A game people will like to play where a community will form around it filled with people who just want to have fun with others. It would be supported by fans, not by moronic devotees who feel obligated to support some vague, idealistic notion of their hobby being elevated to the status of "sport."
We wouldn't have to worry about what other people thought of us. We would just enjoy ourselves. We could have a few tournaments, but nothing too serious. Maybe some Koreans would start playing our game, and we could watch them on a stream. It might not be in English, but everything sounds better with Korean commentary, anyway. And then when someone sees the Korean scene, gets wide-eyed and has some stupid pipe dream about western players being as good as the Koreans, or having a gaming scene as developed as theirs, we could promptly tell them to shut the fuck up, never speak of it again, and continue with our fun.
Sorry if you expected something with a little more grandeur out of a Gheed blog, but I am too annoyed to write anything else at the moment. I was going to work on either a LoL blog or another bronze blog, but this stupid thread came to my attention and epitomized everything I feel is wrong with the community. It's a thread filled with people uselessly arguing about shit that doesn't matter not because they feel it's worth arguing about, but because they worry about what other people, people not even in the community, would think about it.
The dumbest criticism my blogs have received is not that they were poorly written, or that they were mean, or that they were boring, but that I was "killing esports" by dicking around in the bronze league. Well, guess what? If the success of esports hinges on me keeping everything g-rated on the ladder, then esports already has one foot in the grave.
As I said in my post in that thread, which I assume was buried in less than a second, if Quantic does the reasonable thing and does not do shit, then I'm buying a shirt or a hoodie from them.
I'm just going to go play a single player game and forget all this exists for awhile. Diablo III is in a few weeks. I haven't watched anyone stream it or read any information about it in months. I'm simply going to buy it and play it and hope it's good. I only want a game where I can be alone, kill monsters, collect loot, and occasionally team up with a friend or two.
Ya, the whole phase of it kinna makes me sick too. Like when kids these days are 25, their parents are going to look back at them and laugh about when they were "all into eSports". Kinna like when I thought I was going to be a Black Belt after watching Karate Kid or some shit.
Just makes the whole thing seem so trendy and transitory. Though, I am excited about SC2 and possibly BroodWar in the future. -_-
Beats most other "sports" IMO. Feels like I can relate more.
It's hard to rail on you for this post knowing that your own content provides myself and many others with delightful entertainment. ESPORTS is already a business driven industry with multinational corporate interests and is no longer an "illusion"...so your own dream of fuckitall will not come to pass.
Gave up on esport long time ago, right now i watch more lol tournaments its better than seeing sc2 shits same matchups same strategies and stupid hype about foreigners that we all know koreans gonna win anyways
This stuff would probably make me angry too, but I don't care about all of that stuff, nor do a lot of people. I think you're taking this stuff way more seriously than a lot of people. I think being apathetic towards "esports" would be a better approach. I don't like the drama either, but I definitely don't want it all to collapse. It doesn't effect me. At least it shouldn't. There are a lot of good people involved and a lot of effort and money put into it. If I don't like a house, I don't live there, but I don't need it to burn down. IDK :/
These are the exact same thoughts I had when reading that damn thread. 5/5 good sir for being reasonable.
Though I do still have hope for the advancement of competitive gaming, it's not worth constant witch hunts and drama and ostracizing community members. I hope people can realize this and keep it going naturally. If we never get to the mainstream, too bad, but it's not worth selling out everything that is great (and chill) about gaming.
SC2 may be fun, but everyone knows deep down inside that BW is the better game. All of the SC2 bandwagon may be getting excited knowing there will be a competitive televised league in South Korea with former BW players, but they're just doing it for the money. Honestly just read up on all of the latest ODT interviews and their opinions about SC2. It's always going to be about money and politics (newsflash: we live in the 21st century now) over gameplay.
There's tradeoffs to progress, and the growth of esports is certainly no exception. You shine a light on some of the values we have lost along the way, a subject that does not get enough of the attention it deserves!
Hahaha, thanks for brightening my day! I disagree with some of your points but your honesty is a breath of fresh air around here where everything "non-esports" has to be hush-hush or otherwise flamed at.
I was having a crappy day, I feel much better after reading this 5/5
i hate esports too, is just a buzz word promoted by some people so we the "gamers" can get accepted by mainstream media. fuck that.
computer games or consoles games are not sports. Chess being called a "sport " is just an honorable mention that doesnt mean every fricking board game is an sport.
mainstream media should realize gamers != losers. we should help them realize gamers = everybody,winners and losers.
having said that, im ok with terms like "Professional Gaming" or "Electronic Professional Gamers"
I agree....play the game you like and screw the bigger picture
If people complain about racial slurs in starcraft have they never played Halo? never played COD Or any other console game?
Those people who say for esports is whats wrong with all communities, no just ours. They're the people who want everything nannied...that dont want people to express themselves in anyway that may offend them. IUt's like trying to get comedians to stop saying racist or religion jokes...if you don't like it just fucking ignore it. Someone calls someone else a nigger or a gook, ignore it, don't fucking witch hunt. Remove your viewership from that person, but don't contact the sponsors. You don't phone the police when someone else calls someone a nigger.
The word Esports has lost its meaning to the majority of the people on this site. Esports shouldn't be protected like it is, let it grow up and get those bruises...get itself dirty by playing in muddy puddles. Esports will then grow up enjoying its youth, instead of being forced to grow up too fast
I'm with you about 80% of the way on this post. I hate that the community has equated 'esportliness' with godliness, but I still enjoy the idea of taking gaming seriously as a viable competitive alternative to physical sports.
I don't really agree with you with regards to the spoilered stuff, but for the actual "main" contents of the post I completely agree. It's ridiculous how everything is "esports this, need to do this to get sponsors, etc.". I miss BW being a fun little community, independently of sponsors - teams were actually made up of a group of people who got together and said "hey, let's make a team, that could be fun!". Hell, ToT), almost unarguably the greatest foreigner team of all time, was a group of friends who just played for fun. Nowadays basically all the teams we see are run by a bunch of managers, not players, and it's all about "growing esports". Man, I cannot care less about "growing esports". I don't even particularly enjoy watching people play SC2 (nor did I enjoy watching people play BW much). I like playing the game, and that's that. That's not something that esports gives me.
I approve of this blog post. It especially hit me on the head when I translated Kim Carrier's Medic Date. The fun comes first, then competition grows out of that fun, not the other way around.
Someone has to take competitive video gaming seriously someway or another in order for it to be respected by others. Take for example most professional games (I'm looking at everyone here) and they'll tell you that they love the game they play. Most progamers don't give a shit that they don't win tournaments, just as long as they get on a survivable budget for them to support themselves for a year. From what I see, most tournaments have a big prize pool in order to legitimize the game and to attract a larger audience. Also, most nerds would love to see video games broadcasted on televison. It sure beats whatever the hell is on MTV.
On May 02 2012 10:30 SpearWrit wrote: Ohhhh Gheed...
It's hard to rail on you for this post knowing that your own content provides myself and many others with delightful entertainment. ESPORTS is already a business driven industry with multinational corporate interests and is no longer an "illusion"...so your own dream of fuckitall will not come to pass.
Lol, don't kid yourself. "esports" isn't anywhere near that big yet.
I did not play Broodwar. I was too young, and frankly, ignorant of any real foreign scene. But this isn't about Broodwar.
I remember growing up and I would get together with my friends even in highschool (until 07, not that long ago), on weekends and we would go through Rainbow 6 on fucking Dreamcast/Gamecube (damn memory), Tomb Raider, Twisted Metal 2, Ocarina of Time, Link to the Past (on a wii on a projector), and Donkey Kong Country 2. We played to have fun. To make fun of eachother. To use as a way to pass the time while we talked. To bond playing co-op or multiplayer together. Occasionally we would pick up gears of war. Once or twice we would get on Halo Multiplayer and that would last for about 20 minutes until we got tired of listening to people yelling "Faggots" in the voice chat.
I hate the term rose tinted glasses. I hate it being referred to as Nostalgia. It isn't just that. Games were for a time designed purely for the sake of being games. To challenge, to entertain: to be simply a fucking good game and if you liked it, play it. They aren't anymore. They're meant to occupy you, and rake in money. Gaming isn't about play anymore, it's about business. The soul has been bastardized and abandoned by every developer, and resulted in a new generation that does not want or understand the old style and purpose of games.
And the newer communities that have developed as a result are evident. The entitled, demanding, know it all, not-able-to-listen, spoiled rotten attitude permeates through everything. I find it suffocating.
I know that's not exactly what you're saying. I think it's the same thing in the end though. The details you listed can be caused by what I have and are intertwined in all of it.
that's not to shit on the community. it's not to shit on the newer generation or the way that people have changed and "developed" from the older one.
But, while I feel like you sometimes, and while i fear that because of our "community" we honestly have zero chance of long-term, or even short-term survival because of ourselves...all i do is hope.
hope and try not to be an asshole when I can manage. and be nice. and hope that that niceness carries on, and that the idiots (i have no gentler or broader word, and if i attempted to categorize each "bad" stereotype I dont think i could finish) in our community will fade on to other games, as long as they aren't tolerated and catered to. so, cheesy. love and be nice, and cut away what needs to be...and just hope it spreads. cuz...there's really not anything else to do.
I agree completely on everything that I didn't skim over. I couldn't give 2 shits about "esports", I just want Starcraft and the few good FPS games. And I too hope that Quantic does shit all, because everyone against Destiny in that thread have gone beyond 'overreacting' and are just intentionally running up a shitstorm.
quote from a couple posts above me:
I miss BW being a fun little community
i miss this too. the only game that has a small cool enough crowd to be a real tight-knit community is PAYDAY, and its not a 'vs' game T.T thats why im starting to fall in love with speed-running guys. theres a select several hundred and occasionally a mass of guys that stumble their way in and have a good time.
why cant people just want to play a game and not go on some crusade for ESPORTS or some other generic cause or need.
Well I, for one, can't fucking stand it anymore. I don't care about Esports. In fact, I hope SC2 dies a swift death. I hope HotS gets delayed another year so WoL gets even more stale and even more players become disinterested. I hope we never get LAN. I hope all the sponsors pull out when they realize that marketing $200 dollar video cards to 16 year-olds too cheap to even pay for GomTV subscriptions is actually not a very good business plan. I hope Blizzard realizes they could make more money reskinning a WoW mount and selling it for 20 bucks in the virtual store than they could by making an RTS game and shunts all the funds away from SC2 and into the research and development of more sparkle ponies.
Well I, for one, can't fucking stand it anymore. I don't care about Esports. In fact, I hope SC2 dies a swift death. I hope HotS gets delayed another year so WoL gets even more stale and even more players become disinterested. I hope we never get LAN. I hope all the sponsors pull out when they realize that marketing $200 dollar video cards to 16 year-olds too cheap to even pay for GomTV subscriptions is actually not a very good business plan. I hope Blizzard realizes they could make more money reskinning a WoW mount and selling it for 20 bucks in the virtual store than they could by making an RTS game and shunts all the funds away from SC2 and into the research and development of more sparkle ponies.
Let's burn the Blizzard Headquarters! Pillage their village! Rape their women! Steal their horses-
What? Oh, sorry, just got carried away by your sentiments.
Nice blog. I think Team Liquid and competitive StarCraft gaming is currently hitting the community equivalent of puberty, where some want it to grow bigger and other want to return to the innocent days of youth.
On May 02 2012 11:36 Newbistic wrote: Let's burn the Blizzard Headquarters! Pillage their village! Rape their women! Steal their horses-
What? Oh, sorry, just got carried away by your sentiments.
Nice blog. I think Team Liquid and competitive StarCraft gaming is currently hitting the community equivalent of puberty, where some want it to grow bigger and other want to return to the innocent days of youth.
I think it is more frankenstein realizing his monster sometimes =\
I on one hand understand but on the otherhand, disagree. I get it. After reading that thread I felt pretty annoyed myself. Get angry, get mad throw a table fanaticism is rarely a good thing. Having passion is great however and people seem really passionate about Esports. Of course it's something new, no ones ever done it like this before, traditional sports, film, radio etc never quite faced the problems we have and never had a growth that's been so very unusual. Let's be honest, four years ago if you had said people would be shouting about someone saying bad words in a videogame I'd of laughed and said what else is new and to get over it.
People want to see this form of entertainment grow they love the games they play, they love watching people and personalities play the games and they enjoy huge fun intense tournaments with those games. People don't want it to fall apart because of one person(unlikely as that is to happen) so they protect it even if that idea of esports doesn't need any protection whatsoever they love the games and the scene you can't really blame them for being overprotective. It's like a child to some folks.
As far as -that- thread is concerned, trash talking does need to go when it ruins the game experience for players. It's not a good part of our culture and it doesn't even make sense when you really get down to it. Of course a person is free to say what he pleases, so long as he's willing to except the possible backlash and Destiny will be just fine with that in mind.
People have a passion for esports, you can't particularly be too upset at esports when a few overprotective parents step in and try to save it from threats that are in actuality trival.
On May 02 2012 10:30 SpearWrit wrote: Ohhhh Gheed...
It's hard to rail on you for this post knowing that your own content provides myself and many others with delightful entertainment. ESPORTS is already a business driven industry with multinational corporate interests and is no longer an "illusion"...so your own dream of fuckitall will not come to pass.
Lol, don't kid yourself. "esports" isn't anywhere near that big yet.
When did I say it was big? I just said that it is business driven with business interests. Aren't Blizzard, GOMTV, MLG, IGN, Intel, Nvidia, or Razer multinational corporations? Don't they have business deals with each other to host video game tournaments for the projected revenue that the tournament will bring them?
I'm just saying how it is. If you're going to be condescending, at least support it with evidence.
Well I, for one, can't fucking stand it anymore. I don't care about Esports. In fact, I hope SC2 dies a swift death. I hope HotS gets delayed another year so WoL gets even more stale and even more players become disinterested. I hope we never get LAN. I hope all the sponsors pull out when they realize that marketing $200 dollar video cards to 16 year-olds too cheap to even pay for GomTV subscriptions is actually not a very good business plan. I hope Blizzard realizes they could make more money reskinning a WoW mount and selling it for 20 bucks in the virtual store than they could by making an RTS game and shunts all the funds away from SC2 and into the research and development of more sparkle ponies.
The way I see it, there are multiple ways to go about esports. There are the idiots, who are basically like the people in your blog, trying to get esports into the mainstream, not realizing that they would lose what makes esports great by going mainstream. There are also people like me, who like esports because of what it is now, and not what it would lose by going mainstream. We are people who like Starcraft, and like watching people play it, and like big tournaments, but always want that sort of feel you get when you and your pals gathered together in that arcade and played some games together. Esports is a niche, a middle-ground, where professional meets fun, where dreams meet reality, where video games meet sports, and to people like me, it should stay that way.
(BTW, that thread made me facepalm, too. I'm surprised it's really that big of a deal. 50 bucks says that thread wouldn't exist if Quantic didn't hire Destiny)
The funny thing about esports, and this blog, is that people will support or not support things depending on whether like it, regardless of the conceptualization of 'esports' or lack thereof. Just like this blog will ultimately not affect a damn thing.
I can see why you're a popular blogger, though. You seem to have made a career at getting offended by things.
A sport/community that needs to be hand-held to "popularity" by a bunch of over-zealous caregivers really doesn't have much longevity. There are so many witchhunts lately that it's really gotten disgusting.
I dislike the term "eSports" too. I also hate the mentality of some who think because I like Starcraft, I should also be supportive of every other videogame and "eSports" as a whole. I don't care if Halo or Call of Duty or whatever game makes it or not, I just want to watch sc2 and sc:bw.
In the case of Destiny (I haven't read any of the thread and don't intend to), I'm doubting any significant punishment will occur. Quantic should have known what they were getting into when they brought him on and his actions should come as no surprise. Quantic's sponsers may be the ones in for a surpise though if people contact them like they did in the case of Orb, but I'm douting this will happen too.
With that said, I think that anyone in ANY professional setting should realize their public actions could have consequences. This means not doing stupid shit like calling people retards or racial slurs if they want to keep getting paid. People are fired all the time over shit they say publicly (i.e. facebook posts) and saying things on ladder games is no different.
On May 02 2012 11:57 Jerubaal wrote: The funny thing about esports, and this blog, is that people will support or not support things depending on whether like it, regardless of the conceptualization of 'esports' or lack thereof. Just like this blog will ultimately not affect a damn thing.
I can see why you're a popular blogger, though. You seem to have made a career at getting offended by things.
On May 02 2012 11:57 Jerubaal wrote: The funny thing about esports, and this blog, is that people will support or not support things depending on whether like it, regardless of the conceptualization of 'esports' or lack thereof. Just like this blog will ultimately not affect a damn thing.
I can see why you're a popular blogger, though. You seem to have made a career at getting offended by things.
ButtHurt (n): An inappropriately strong negative emotional response from a perceived personal insult. Characterized by strong feelings of shame. Frequently associated with a cessation of communication and overt hostility towards the "aggressor."
Cry more you bunch of babies, esports is an industry, sc2 is a game.
You play the game because it is fun, no one forces you to be a part of esports, if you don't like it, then don't be a part of it. But your lonely, you want to be part of a community, a cyber community with no real interpersonal relationships, and you blame esports for failure to provide this for you? Guess what, you know what makes esports what it is? Everyone here, the people you hate, and the ones you like. The real 'Esports' is just the result of competitive drive of some individuals who see a sector that has yet been exploited.
You hate people. Surprise! Welcome to reality, it's the same every fucking place you go. Choose wisely where you invest yourself.
On May 02 2012 10:42 LegendaryDreams wrote: +1 to you
SC2 may be fun, but everyone knows deep down inside that BW is the better game. All of the SC2 bandwagon may be getting excited knowing there will be a competitive televised league in South Korea with former BW players, but they're just doing it for the money. Honestly just read up on all of the latest ODT interviews and their opinions about SC2. It's always going to be about money and politics (newsflash: we live in the 21st century now) over gameplay.
The magic is gone.
Agree with this and 5/5 blog. I love SC2 but I hate what it's becoming of it.
On May 02 2012 12:20 run.at.me wrote: Cry more you bunch of babies, esports is an industry, sc2 is a game.
You play the game because it is fun, no one forces you to be a part of esports, if you don't like it, then don't be a part of it. But your lonely, you want to be part of a community, a cyber community with no real interpersonal relationships, and you blame esports for failure to provide this for you? Guess what, you know what makes esports what it is? Everyone here, the people you hate, and the ones you like. The real 'Esports' is just the result of competitive drive of some individuals who see a sector that has yet been exploited.
You hate people. Surprise! Welcome to reality, it's the same every fucking place you go. Choose wisely where you invest yourself.
There actually used to be something like this, but then this whole concept of esports came in and swallowed it up.
I don't really like TL and sc reddit because all the threads are about "esports" instead of SC2. There's always threads about players, tournaments, general BS. Instead of reading about how player x did at dreamhack #491, I'd rather read something about SC2 itself. I'd rather be reading about strategies, SC2 development news, replays, tutorials and not about this "esports" stuff.
I guess my expectations of an sc2 fansite are a lot different than a lot of other people's. I would much rather ladder a bunch of games and come on TL or Reddit and talk about strategies or look at a few interesting pictures, threads, streams, replays that are primarily about SC2 gameplay. To illustrate I have marked up sc2 reddit:
TLDR: Sc2 is a fun game to ladder on. I expect sc2 fan sites to be primarily focused on gameplay, not "esports". "Esports" are not entertaining while SC2 is.
On May 02 2012 12:20 run.at.me wrote: Cry more you bunch of babies, esports is an industry, sc2 is a game.
You play the game because it is fun, no one forces you to be a part of esports, if you don't like it, then don't be a part of it. But your lonely, you want to be part of a community, a cyber community with no real interpersonal relationships, and you blame esports for failure to provide this for you? Guess what, you know what makes esports what it is? Everyone here, the people you hate, and the ones you like. The real 'Esports' is just the result of competitive drive of some individuals who see a sector that has yet been exploited.
You hate people. Surprise! Welcome to reality, it's the same every fucking place you go. Choose wisely where you invest yourself.
On May 02 2012 11:57 Jerubaal wrote: The funny thing about esports, and this blog, is that people will support or not support things depending on whether like it, regardless of the conceptualization of 'esports' or lack thereof. Just like this blog will ultimately not affect a damn thing.
I can see why you're a popular blogger, though. You seem to have made a career at getting offended by things.
seems like the OP rustled your jimmies a bit
Is this a sexual term? Yes, the way he attacks the low lying fruit is truly awe inspiring.
So this is where the anit-eSports movement starts.
I do get where you are coming from in this thread and I do feel it in some ways, but for the most part it is kinda nice to tournaments growing. At least we still have Home Story Cup, that is a more relaxed tournament style if that is what you are looking for in a tournament. However if we do lose those tournaments and everything is all super serious it will get stale and repetitive very, very fast.
On May 02 2012 12:18 Liquid`Jinro wrote: What a retarded thread lol
It's like whining about professional soccer destroying your ability to kick a ball around with your friends.
Esports evangelicism can be annoying as fuck, I dont disagree, but your post is silly.
I don't really agree with you FA. In BW times the community felt much more close-knit. High level players were significantly less cloistered (more openly talking on TL, not so much "witch hunt"ing, pro players actually coming and hanging out with random peons on TL's bnet channel, etc). I was more involved with administration things (or perhaps I should say involved at all, since I no longer have any sort of administrative role of any sort in SC ), but I don't think that's the cause of my perception of that.
I think the larger community size and the increased vulnerability of players ("a did b?! Call the sponsors!!!!!") are the main causes of it. When people played for fun/pride and the occasional cash, nobody gave a fuck about that stuff, because no one had sponsors to be called. Professional soccer doesn't affect my ability to kick the ball around with my friends, but it's a pretty different experience if the players I saw on TV used to be among the friend I used to kick the ball around with, but now they no longer hang out with the non-pros (not really a perfect example, but that's the best I can do with your analogy )
I'd hoped Mondragon would deliver a BW style team (even though Mondragon himself wasn't actually particularly involved on TL) where the team was less sponsor/money-driven when he showed up to lead MyM as both the captain and a player, but unfortunately that sort of faded way due to his real life commitments
e: note I think the design of SC2 Bnet has a direct effect upon this too, by the way, but I don't think it's fair to purely blame Bnet for it, as the stuff on the website certainly isn't the result of that.
Once it becomes cool to hate eSports, you guys are going to have to be the first to jump on the "I love Esports" wagon again, before it gets cool... you realize that...
On May 02 2012 12:18 Liquid`Jinro wrote: What a retarded thread lol
It's like whining about professional soccer destroying your ability to kick a ball around with your friends.
Esports evangelicism can be annoying as fuck, I dont disagree, but your post is silly.
I would agree with both of these. A bunch of annoying zealots running around saying "IN THE NAME OF ESPORTS" is really annoying, and frustrating. But I would disagree that the movement to make it mainstream is hurting the casual player. Much of the difference between BW and SCII is simply size of community, not necessarily sponsors etc. While communities, SCreddit being the most notorious, use ESPORTS as an excuse for all sorts of shenanigans. "For esports" should be for the betterment of the community, and the expansion of the community will lead to the expansion of competitive "esports" While the current usage is so convoluted it makes me sick at times, promoting esports should not be something to be frowned upon. Forcing zealotlike ideals onto others in the name of advancement, is.
The sponsor stuff is absolute bullshit. But it's not really for advancement. I think we all know deep down that people just like witchhunts, and going to sponsors directly isn't really intended to help esports, per se.
I'm with Jinro mostly but I do agree that people get too wrapped up in we need this for esports instead of just enjoying the game they play and watch.
This too. People should firstly be community members and people that enjoy esports, and then worry about the actual advancement of "the game" per se.
There seem to be alot of people who miss the point of the thread...and are probably the people this thread is kind of aimed at.
I don't play SC2 because it's an esport....I play it because its fun and I agree with a previous poster that I would rather scrap the esports stuff and just have a discussion site which talks about the game itself
However i love SC2 as an esport...I enjoy watching it and have been to several GSLs (my most famous of which is the uniden fighting sign ^^).
And jinro is perfectly right to draw the soccer link....but i think again a point was missed. SC2 shouldn't just be played because its an esport, which seems to be what TL embodies (maybe involuntarily), it should be played for fun and then a proleague and an esport should rise from that. Blizz had the issue of designing sc2 as an esport, where as SC and BW were designed as games which developed an esport (the better way round). Remember football was a fun game played by people before it became a legit sport. there were like 40 or 50+players a team and it was chaos...then people thought 'wow people watch this shit...lets start a league' and it all began there. Not 'wow cricket is a really popular spectator sport...lets make this new version in mind for the fans'
Again you're posting some nonsense in order to be popular and edgy, much like your so called bronze adventures you value so highly, which was just you trolling around bronze players with some edgy as fuck "humourous writing".
This reminds me of the FGC desperately trying to weasel their way out of the sexual harassment and racism debacles by claiming that they're not esports. They're so grassroots man, you wouldn't understand. It's always been part of the scene man. You wouldn't understand. That's how we do things here man. You wouldn't understand. It's tough living in the hood man and that's how things are and id you don't like it then you're not part of our community.
I wish you weren't part of the SC2 community. Do go play single player. Come back once you've learned that the world does not revolve around you and your funny and edgy antics. Esports will do fine without you.
Oh god, thank you so much for coming out and saying this. I hate it too, really, the entire culture of gaming is being washed away by political correctness and the desire to break into the mainstream.
What happened to communities consisting of no more than 20 or 30 people, keeping a game alive? What happened to LAN parties? What happened to being able to call your opponent a "fag" without anyone getting their panties in a knot over it?
I sympathize with the Street Fighter players who made sexist comments against their female competitor a while back. I may not agree with sexism, but they're just trying to keep their culture alive, holding back the flood of eSports.
On May 02 2012 14:23 Jinsho wrote: Again you're posting some nonsense in order to be popular and edgy, much like your so called bronze adventures you value so highly, which was just you trolling around bronze players with some edgy as fuck "humourous writing".
This reminds me of the FGC desperately trying to weasel their way out of the sexual harassment and racism debacles by claiming that they're not esports. They're so grassroots man, you wouldn't understand. It's always been part of the scene man. You wouldn't understand. That's how we do things here man. You wouldn't understand. It's tough living in the hood man and that's how things are and id you don't like it then you're not part of our community.
I wish you weren't part of the SC2 community. Do go play single player. Come back once you've learned that the world does not revolve around you and your funny and edgy antics. Esports will do fine without you.
That is an incredibly twisted and cynical way to look at his post. I think you are the one who needs to gain perspective -- and no, all these people who are agreeing with him are not phantasms.
It's the community aspect that even makes something like "esports" a real thing. You can't say it's not real because money is being poured into gaming like never before. Even without the esports tag you would still have people up in arms about pointless crap. Everyone is allowed an opinion but sometimes they scream too loud and it pisses everyone else off. The esports zealots you refer to are the equivalent of the elitist assholes but on the other side of the spectrum. One side wants it to go mainstream...the other wants it to stay a small community with a unique culture. Both are fine ideas but the clashing of ideas is sickening. It shouldn't ruin your enjoyment of anything just to have loud-mouthed people around shouting their opinions.
This world is going through this as a whole...not just some community gathered around competitive gaming. Everyone has the best solution and no one is willing to give any slack to anyone else because they are screaming the loudest. It's a sad truth but everything is headed in that direction. Just because no one cares about your opinion doesn't mean you can't still enjoy things. Who cares...seriously. Whine blogs piss me off but that doesn't mean I should go and gather up my followers to complain about it. Play your game, cheese some bronze leaguers, have a laugh, talk with friends, eat an ice cream cone, and don't worry about it so much. I will never understand how everyone feels so entitled to things being their way. Bringing something up without making it hostile would be better than blindly raging and is much more conducive to that tight-knit community you want. As it is...this only helps to extend the divide between people by polarizing a situation that has no need to be polarized.
These things go for everyone. If there is anything that should be called into question, it's some of the community members' sense of entitlement. I joined TL to enjoy StarCraft...I didn't join it to create pseudo-drama.
On May 02 2012 14:06 Surgical_Strike wrote: well arent you just the hipster nerd at the head of the TL elitist group
i.. tend to agree with this.
is it really cool nowadays to think that loving a successful SC2 is stupid? what the fuck? the only comprehensible way I can understand the OP, and the countless people who agree with this blog sharing that opinion is.. they suck at the game and lashing back at the good players who take the game seriously "ie calling their game a sport" helps them mend their bruised egos.
I don't run around saying "killing e-sports this" or "hurting sponsors that". but, to anyone who does take this game relatively seriously (and not someone in platinum who actually enjoys making fun of new bronze players), "e-sports" is a real thing. LANs, online tournaments for money, and Team leagues are as close to the definition of an "e-sport" that I can think of, and those things are a part of my SC2 experience. this is something I would much rather be doing than playing a different game casually.
as jinro stated, this thread and this opinion in general is silly. so please, stop generalizing the community as the vocal minority in threads like the -orb-'s, or Destiny's, do not represent everyone who would love Starcraft 2 to be successful.
I pay attention to esports because I enjoy watching pros play, the same way i like watching pro athletes play in their particular sport. I surf TL almost everyday and watch many matches while not even touching SC2 for the last year...
Remember when we were all amused when SKT made an English website with the word 'Esportainment' because noone took Esports seriously. If only we knew then how the term would get hijacked.
This blog is hurting ESPORTS. Why do you hate ESPORTS?
I bet you hate Elly too.
Seriously, I hate people saying "the community needs to take a stand on this" as much as anyone. But you don't fight zealots with serious posts. You fight them with spider mines and vulture blocks by making fun of them.
Basically, some people are taking themselves too seriously. And your strategy seems to be to have a serious talk with them and explain that this is unacceptable. Or leave until they get bored and find another party to ruin with their attitude. I think it's much better to just ignore them and occasionally point out that they are being annoying.
The whole "ESPORTS!" spiel is long-winded and demands from people a blind devotion to a game, not for the fact that it's fun, but because ESPORTS! Games emerge and gain popularity because they are fun to play. That's how BW first came up, not because everyone was focused on making it some kind of pro-sport, but because a group of people found the game to be fun, had fun, and then all of a sudden, the infrastructure was in place to culminate into a thriving pro-scene.
It's incredibly annoying and is one of the main reasons why I'm put-off by SC2. It's a slogan that basically frames it so that any voice of dislike at things/criticisms of the game become some kind of "evil force" that's "killing e-sports!"
Awesome blog. Though I have to point out that those standing up for SC2 eSports and trying to make it work have, at the very least, good taste in games.
On May 02 2012 14:23 Jinsho wrote: Again you're posting some nonsense in order to be popular and edgy, much like your so called bronze adventures you value so highly, which was just you trolling around bronze players with some edgy as fuck "humourous writing".
This reminds me of the FGC desperately trying to weasel their way out of the sexual harassment and racism debacles by claiming that they're not esports. They're so grassroots man, you wouldn't understand. It's always been part of the scene man. You wouldn't understand. That's how we do things here man. You wouldn't understand. It's tough living in the hood man and that's how things are and id you don't like it then you're not part of our community.
I wish you weren't part of the SC2 community. Do go play single player. Come back once you've learned that the world does not revolve around you and your funny and edgy antics. Esports will do fine without you.
Lol i wish you weren't part of the SC2 community either, your blatant hate for individuals is detrimental to any kind of argument you have. Come back once you've learned that the world doesn't revolve around you and your opinions...The world in general will do fine without you. See what i did there?
I personally miss the days when not everything in the video-gaming world revolved around the pro-gamers. Does anybody remember how fun BW was when it was a game played almost entirely for casual entertainment? It was only later that people decided to make money off of it...
On May 02 2012 15:06 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote: Agreed completely, fuck Esports.
Remember when we were all amused when SKT made an English website with the word 'Esportainment' because noone took Esports seriously. If only we knew then how the term would get hijacked.
The sad thing is I doubt most people today on these boards know what SKT is.
On May 02 2012 10:30 SpearWrit wrote: Ohhhh Gheed...
It's hard to rail on you for this post knowing that your own content provides myself and many others with delightful entertainment. ESPORTS is already a business driven industry with multinational corporate interests and is no longer an "illusion"...so your own dream of fuckitall will not come to pass.
Yeah agree with this one the most. eSPORTS has already become to big to die out, and from this time period onwards, it will always be around. Definitely not saying that SC2 will stay around forever, heck it is already being beaten by LoL tenfold, but esports with competition and prize money will always get bigger. If you think fighting for a 50,000 dollar prize is a lot, consider other 1v1 sports like tennis, where the winner of a grand slam gets $2,000,000. So it might seem drastic to you, but in reality esports is still very small (for now)
All the bullshit that came out with ESPORTS has really started to wear on me too. Arguing whether or not X game is an esport, arguing over what professionalism is, what should be tolerated, over which game is the biggest etc. has just made a lot of the community unpleasant for me. Maybe its just nostalgia, or perhaps elistism, but I miss what TL was before SC2 came out. And oddly enough, a lot of the SC2 people are already just as elitist as the BW standy-bys, but they just don't know it yet.
You seem angry that professional starcraft has fallen victim to its own success. If we can blatantly generalize for a second, you're right to lament that Starcraft fans in general have replaced the goal of having fun with the goal of taking the game mainstream. If that's really the case, then maybe everyone needs to chill out and do some soul searching.
That still doesn't mean we can't yearn for more people to enjoy the game with us. You said:
On May 02 2012 10:20 Gheed wrote: Maybe some Koreans would start playing our game, and we could watch them on a stream. It might not be in English, but everything sounds better with Korean commentary, anyway. And then when someone sees the Korean scene, gets wide-eyed and has some stupid pipe dream about western players being as good as the Koreans, or having a gaming scene as developed as theirs, we could promptly tell them to shut the fuck up, never speak of it again, and continue with our fun.
Isn't that proverbial fork in the road where teamliquid (and foreign Starcraft in general) was a few years ago? I'm guessing more than a few community members at that time wanted to see "esports" grow, and they had no problem continuing to have fun with the game while it did in fact grow. Jinro's analogy is right on point I think. Skateboarding is on ESPN several times a year, commentated by well-dressed broadcasters who aren't allowed to use profanity. Did the fact that many skateboarders desired this state of affairs kill their own enjoyment of the sport?
Ultimately, I don't see any reason why we can't have it both ways. A few forum threads bemoaning racism or urging better dress are not enough to disenfranchise me from the game I enjoy and they shouldn't do that to you either. I play SC2 because I enjoy it, and I want professional starcraft to grow bigger and better because I enjoy watching it.
This post immediately came to mind not because of what it says about TL user conduct, but because of what it says about being a Starcraft fan historically. For a long time and for many people, Starcraft has involved both enjoying the game on a personal level and fostering its growth as a legitimate spectator esport.
On May 08 2011 10:23 mahnini wrote: what people are forgetting is that TL has high standards for the conduct of their users. due to the explosion of new users and lack of sufficient manpower to moderate a lot of people think TL is just some forum where you can post whatever you feel like with no repercussions. that couldn't be anywhere further from the truth.
this is going to sound super elitist but i don't care because it's the truth. TL is one of the foundations for why sc2 is the way it is today. TL is one of the reasons western esports even stands a chance. for 10 years through thick and thin our little community kept cranking out coverage of a video game from across the world that many have heard of but few truly understood. all the mods and staff you see aren't here doing it for the money or power, they do it because they love the game and the community. hot_bid, chill, kennigit? they all started as regular users who browsed the forum and loved the game. through contributions to the site and dedication they were selected to be among the proud few who could call themselves TL staff.
think about how easy it is today for you to get a stream to watch sc2 and remember that back in 2005 TL members would stay up till 2am on irc hoping that one of our members MAYBE could get their hands on a korean stream. remember that when WCG had no idea what TL was or how to get a proper caster TL's support and encouragement helped propel tasteless to caster fame.
TLPD? possibly the most comprehensive starcraft database in existence? made from the ground up by TL staff and volunteers. our strategy forums are probably the most informative english resources in the world, they have to be moderated and still we don't consider them to be perfect. articles, fpvods, commentaries? our users put their heart and soul into churning these out because they knew somewhere out there in our community there was someone who would appreciate it.
people need to stop considering TL a separate entity or some conglomerate of egotistic admins. TL is YOU. every single poster, viewer, or reader is part of TL. everything on this site is user generated by people who care and it's a damn shame when one of only sites that will literally take a stand for the community and uphold it's integrity is seen as some overzealous, overmoderated, egotistic, site for elitists.
if that's elitist then i'm an elitist and that's just how it is.
I bought this game, I played 2v2 and 3v3 with my friends. It was fun, I never got good at this game. I was average at most. Now I don't really feel like playing anymore, the game feels dull for me, I have no desire to "become better", and my friends seldomly play the game anymore.
So now I watch SC2 tournaments, not "FOR ESPORTS", but for me, for my own entertainment. Will I be sad if MLG, GSL, IPL etc. dies because I didn't support esports, probably not. I respect the players who are trying to make a living from this. But I don't feel like they should be entitled to our "FOR ESPORTS"-support.
Just my 2 cents, D3 will be my next love. Luckily that isn't made with esports in mind....
I remember when I joined back in 2009 I had no idea what esports was and when I did I scoffed at the idea I just loved watching Starcraft BW it was an awesome time, I really do miss it when the community was focused on BW. But maybe esport is for the better the community has grown ten fold since then, but to me it sucks knowing it will never be the same.
i love this blog! the reasons why people want esports and all its limitations it actually brings...
... more professionalism and accomodation which leads to higher skilled players ... the mroe mainstream it is, the more accepting it will be ... and last but not least things like barcraft open up a whole new experience you can have with this game
I'm with you on this one. Competitive gaming is a wonderful thing, but the whole "eSports" movement in its current form is cringe-inducing. I think it's important to recognize the how this came to be: r/starcraft. I don't mean to demonize Reddit, but they need a bit of tough love on this one and I think it will help if the community is conscious of how communication mediums influence our opinions.
Reddit, by the nature of how it is organized, is highly prone to creating echo chambers. It isn't an entirely fatal flaw, as long as the users are aware of it. The danger comes when users get all of their information on a given topic from a subreddit. It gets really bad when this is true for most of the users in the subreddit, especially with subreddits about niche topics. The voting system enforces a tyranny of the majority that effectively silences dissenting opinions. This creates a positive feedback loop that continually reinforces the prevailing opinion. From the inside, it is easy to mistake this groupthink for gospel truth. Any threat (real or imagined) to the groupthink status quo whips the users into a frenzy in defense of their viewpoint.
The eSports movement is not the only manifestation of this phenomenon, and is certainly not the worst by a long shot. Truly reprehensible things have come out of this, especially when the greater Reddit community is either unaware of it or defends it under their interpretation of "free speech" (which is another example in itself, to a degree). Please do not take my choice of examples below as any sort of direct comparison to r/starcraft, but instead simply recognize the parallels in group behavior.
Look at r/MensRights. There is such a thing as legitimate men's rights issues. I don't know if the subreddit was created to discuss them, but it's a niche issue that's a good fit for something like a subreddit or Usenet group. Sadly, you will not find anything of the sort in r/MensRights. It's a deplorable circlejerk of misogynists paranoid about women falsely accusing them of rape at every turn, and then in the same breath blaming rape victims for what was done to them. If you dig around a bit, you can find people that think women are trying to steal their seed to get pregnant as some sort of convoluted plot to exploit them for child support money. These attitudes would never be acceptable under any sort of social norms, but if you try to call them out on their home turf they all gang up and downvote you into oblivion.
Of course, the title of worst of the horrific subreddits goes to the only one to be shut down: r/jailbait and its offshoots. The purpose of these subreddits was for pedophiles (ephebophiles if you want to be pendantic) to exchange pictures of teenage girls. They toed a fine line of legality in that the girls in the pictures were clothed, but usually just barely (swimsuits, etc). Most of the pictures came from hacked facebook accounts and the like. Long story short, it was a bunch of creepy dudes jerking off to stolen vacation pictures of teenage girls. Oh, and the owner of these "communities" was colluding with the site admins behind the scenes to keep them open, further reinforcing the idea in the minds of the users that this was acceptable behavior. When r/jailbait became the subject of a segment by CNN's Anderson Cooper, the creeper community banded together in solidarity against this threat. In their minds, what they were doing was OK because other people in the subreddit thought it was OK, and the bad man on the news was out to get them. They then proceded to paste Anderson Cooper's head onto the body of teenage girls in mspaint as some sort of creepy retaliation. The original r/jailbait was finally shut down after it was found that posters were using the subreddit as a meeting place to send each other actual child porn in private messages. The subreddit was recreated under several different names and was allowed to continue oporating for quite some time. This paragraph is already far longer than I planned, so you can find a summary of how it finally ended here. Suffice to say that normal people were shocked and appalled that this existed, and the pedophiles tried to play the persecuted victim to the bitter end.
Again, I am NOT in any way implying that eSports evangelists are pedophiles or anything like that. However, the communications medium has the same effect on the community. In this case, it has taken the simple well-intentioned idea of being supportive of competitive gaming and built it up into some kind of fucked up manifest destiny that ends in SC2 on ESPN. Everyone involved gets held to this unrealistic E-bushido ideal of conduct that assumes they have to be on their best behavior because that shit won't fly when they're on TV. When someone is found to be in violation of E-bushido, it isn't enough to tell them to not act like a douche in the future because their personal offense is some kind of blight on the image of the community. By harming the image of competitive gaming as a whole, they are obstructing manifest destiny and therefore are KILLING ESPORTS. Gheed's blog killing eSports, really? You might as well go on Fox News and accuse him of hating America.
Now, the best way to combat this is for a subreddit to be one of several places to discuss a topic so that there is enough outside input to break the positive feedback loop. A little perspective goes a long way, and the sooner the better. This is a rather difficult proposition with TL being the only other big (English language) SC2 site I know of. The best we can do is to cultivate realistic viewpoints about competitive gaming and call out the zealots where we can. That being said, here's my bit of perspective:
The highest number I can find for tournament viewership is 200,000 for the MLG finals. I usually see around 50,000 for big weekend tournaments like IPL and Dreamhack. That's awesome, but 111,000,000 watched the Super Bowl in 2011 (I was not one of them). Those extra zeroes say a lot. While it's great to see the pro leagues growing, recognize that competetive gaming is a niche interest with a level of viewership that is nowhere near that of traditional sports.
Punishing bad words on the internet by trying to pressure the perpetrator's sponsors with reddit pitchforks is never acceptable behavior. This isn't Glenn Beck calling a woman a whore because she testified before Congress about birth control. It's trash talking in a video game on the internet. There's probably wore people being called faggots in Gheed-esque games right this moment than Destiny ever has. Any attempt to get a sponsor to pull support for a player, team, or league is in fact killing eSports in the most literal sense possible. That's right, I went there: complaining about someone killing eSports is killing eSports.
I remember some quote from an SC2 developer where he said something along the lines of "we had fun ideas to use but we kicked those ideas out in favor of competitive play."
I kinda miss the days where people made games to be fun first and the community is the one that fostered the competitiveness after that.
I can't count the number of times people will pay for a subscription they say is SUBPAR on twitch and do it "for esports." What incentive do these people have to make things better when you throw your money at an inferior product? Your money is your voice when things go industrial, remember that.
omg Gheed you finnally done it =D you took your undeniable writing talent, added conciseness =D=D and you actually wrote something meaningful... you are like the charismatic alter ego of Al bundy that steps on a car hood and inspires his fellows =D good job, always a fan!
on the topic: i totally agree except that i want sc2 to grow just so that i can enjoy it more. In line with what your saying i dont play i just enjoy watching but i dont care about "eSports". I just want to watch the best sc2 that there can be.
I understand when people like Dj Wheat fight for the groth of all of competitive games given his background. But he and others shouldnt require all sc2 fans to think in the same way. I for one, only want to enjoy sc2, not eSports. doing something as long as its genuinely fun and not a crusade good way to stay grounded
I have similar feelings whenever I watch starcraft 2 competitions. I'm not completely sure why it seems so different than the korean bw scene I have followed for so long. Certainly it existed because of their sponsors and whatnot. Maybe it was a distance thing. Those silly korean comercials weren't targeting me. Maybe its blizzards constant involvement that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I suppose never having to pay to watch bw didn't hurt.
I guess I have always held a sort of a negative view of the commercialism in professional sports in this country as well. I followed soccer (mostly European teams) all through high school. I am not convinced that the commercialism was any less extreme over there, but I was at least distanced from it, and it didn't bug me as much.
I don't necessarily agree with you but like always, it was well-written and definitely a fun read. Should have been a bit longer though I reckon with more pics.
It wasn't that long ago that ESPORTS was a joke around here, and "you're hurting ESPORTS!" was always said tongue-in-cheek. As much as I love this site, sometime after Team Liquid became an actual team again, opened an office, and started paying out salaries, TL.net changed from a fun community forum to the church of e-sports. It stopped being a joke when people were making real money at it. I don't begrudge them that: I love being able to watch a dozen pros stream or watch a tournament at any hour of the day or night, but I wish we could have that without all the drama.
You make promoting esports sound like it's some kind of chore that we are stuck with as gamers. Most of the threads and arguments about "killing esports" are related to players or casters who get a considerable amount of publicity and face time, I don't see how that has any impact at all on the average player or spectator.
If you don't give a fuck about esports then that's cool, noone says you have to. If you wanna play the game then play the game, if you wanna watch tournaments then watch tournaments. That's the whole point. It's not complicated at all. The reason why people play and watch Starcraft is because it's fun and they enjoy it, not because they feel it's their obligation to promote some abstract concept of what we think gaming should be like.
On May 02 2012 17:20 Jayme wrote: I agree with this guy.
I remember some quote from an SC2 developer where he said something along the lines of "we had fun ideas to use but we kicked those ideas out in favor of competitive play."
I kinda miss the days where people made games to be fun first and the community is the one that fostered the competitiveness after that.
I can't count the number of times people will pay for a subscription they say is SUBPAR on twitch and do it "for esports." What incentive do these people have to make things better when you throw your money at an inferior product? Your money is your voice when things go industrial, remember that.
On May 02 2012 17:34 sheaRZerg wrote: I have similar feelings whenever I watch starcraft 2 competitions. I'm not completely sure why it seems so different than the korean bw scene I have followed for so long. Certainly it existed because of their sponsors and whatnot. Maybe it was a distance thing. Those silly korean comercials weren't targeting me. Maybe its blizzards constant involvement that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I suppose never having to pay to watch bw didn't hurt.
The nature of sponsor's involvement in Korea and the west (or Korean SC2) is completely different though.
Brood War sponsors are a lot like F1 manufacturers. They have their own teams, the teams and the players directly represent the company, and competing in sports leagues is a matter of prestige and raising the company image. Samsung doesn't invest in the pro team just to (directly) reach a new audience and sell Galaxy Tabs to them. They have a pro team competing under their name to demonstrate that Samsung is competitive and can be successful at everything they do. Brood War (and SF, or other Kespa games) players are athletes who are paid specifically to compete and excel at what they do, and Brood War sponsors genuinely foster competition and the actual sports/athletic aspect of playing Starcraft because it's in their interest to do so.
Western esports sponsors are just that - sponsors. Look at the most common suspects - Razer and Steelseries. It's hard to find an "esports" event without their company brand being plastered somewhere - whether on multiple team jerseys, or next to the league logo, or at a booth, etc. They have their eggs in every basket, every other team, every game with even the slightest hint of a competitive scene. But make no mistake, they don't give a shit about gaming other than as an outlet and a perfect target audience to sell overpriced hardware that otherwise very few people would ever be interested in buying. In other words, they're parasites. They want to spread out as much as possible to make sure everyone is aware of them and their products, and that is the limit of their involvement. As a result, Starcraft 2 (or CS or any other game popular in the west) players are paid to make an appearance and get noticed. They're advertising space, they're just a shirt with a brand on it - that is ALL that they are being paid for, and how they go about getting noticed is up to them.
This is no way a jab at the actual players - I myself am emotionally invested in a lot of SC2 players (specifically TL ones because I see them as representatives of the community, but many others as well). Nor is any of this to be blamed on the players. But the truth of the matter is that their commitment, passion and hard work is being used just so that their team owners, managers, all the Razers and other sponsors, and all the "content providers" can get exposure for their brands. Then, a few years from now they'll just move on to a different game to appeal to a new audience and ride the marketing wave of new game industry products as the players get left behind to rot and figure out what to do with the rest of their lives.
On May 02 2012 17:20 Jayme wrote: I agree with this guy.
I remember some quote from an SC2 developer where he said something along the lines of "we had fun ideas to use but we kicked those ideas out in favor of competitive play."
I kinda miss the days where people made games to be fun first and the community is the one that fostered the competitiveness after that.
I can't count the number of times people will pay for a subscription they say is SUBPAR on twitch and do it "for esports." What incentive do these people have to make things better when you throw your money at an inferior product? Your money is your voice when things go industrial, remember that.
I hate all this political correctness that people are advocating so much so esports can grow. I'm not saying it's a bad thing casters don't use swear words on streams, on the contrary I think that's a very good idea. But when a player uses a "bad word" (oh lord please forgive him) and all these people get upset because he's destroying esports and people actually contact sponsors, please how stupid can you get.
I hate esports community quite a fair bit actually. We have figure heads like TLO and white-ra, we proudly call ourselves the gentlemen of esports, but when it comes to pitchforking, some people simply post hate messages with personal attacks. The amount of hate, the self proclaimed justice without providing any argument and simply think he is all correct and almighty. Some people try to argue, thinking they are standing on a higher moral ground but in fact, they aren't even anywhere CLOSE to being on a higher ground. It's so sad to see that a mod on TL would act like this: http://i.imgur.com/Hc23e.png This clearly shows how even a Mod simply cannot understand there are a difference between hate messages and providing a valid argument to prove him wrong.
It gives me pain to see how the community, the majority, do NOT provide a valid/well developed argument to counter Destiny's arguments, provoking even more stupid bitch talks.
I mean I will probably get banned for this (or maybe this sentence is why I will get banned) but from what I can see, this esport community cannot grow when we do not move on from pitchforking to accepting the scene needs to cater more than just one single group of segment, especially when the market is still very small. Not to mention he wasn't really being racist, down right contacting sponsors and say that supporting him = supporting racist will force sponsor to do something no matter if that is true or not.
Contacting Sponsors etc are all just making me so sad and disappointed in the scene that I might just leave these "scene" for now and stick with the korean competitive scene.
ET you won't get banned for that since you're just calmly expressing your opinion, nothing wrong with that. So just edit out that sentence cos it'll get you banned .
Well we knew this was going to happen since SC2 was released. E-SPORTS is killing more than just e-sports.
It looks like people want more than just a fun game and a nice community. They want an arena and a platform to push their own views and ideals. The biggest guns are called professionalism and political correctness. As the arena grows so does the calls for bigger weapons. Those who choose not to fight are the first to be shot and thrown aside.
On May 02 2012 17:34 sheaRZerg wrote: I have similar feelings whenever I watch starcraft 2 competitions. I'm not completely sure why it seems so different than the korean bw scene I have followed for so long. Certainly it existed because of their sponsors and whatnot. Maybe it was a distance thing. Those silly korean comercials weren't targeting me. Maybe its blizzards constant involvement that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I suppose never having to pay to watch bw didn't hurt.
The nature of sponsor's involvement in Korea and the west (or Korean SC2) is completely different though.
Brood War sponsors are a lot like F1 manufacturers. They have their own teams, the teams and the players directly represent the company, and competing in sports leagues is a matter of prestige and raising the company image. Samsung doesn't invest in the pro team just to (directly) reach a new audience and sell Galaxy Tabs to them. They have a pro team competing under their name to demonstrate that Samsung is competitive and can be successful at everything they do. Brood War (and SF, or other Kespa games) players are athletes who are paid specifically to compete and excel at what they do, and Brood War sponsors genuinely foster competition and the actual sports/athletic aspect of playing Starcraft because it's in their interest to do so.
Western esports sponsors are just that - sponsors. Look at the most common suspects - Razer and Steelseries. It's hard to find an "esports" event without their company brand being plastered somewhere - whether on multiple team jerseys, or next to the league logo, or at a booth, etc. They have their eggs in every basket, every other team, every game with even the slightest hint of a competitive scene. But make no mistake, they don't give a shit about gaming other than as an outlet and a perfect target audience to sell overpriced hardware that otherwise very few people would ever be interested in buying. In other words, they're parasites. They want to spread out as much as possible to make sure everyone is aware of them and their products, and that is the limit of their involvement. As a result, Starcraft 2 (or CS or any other game popular in the west) players are paid to make an appearance and get noticed. They're advertising space, they're just a shirt with a brand on it - that is ALL that they are being paid for, and how they go about getting noticed is up to them.
This is no way a jab at the actual players - I myself am emotionally invested in a lot of SC2 players (specifically TL ones because I see them as representatives of the community, but many others as well). Nor is any of this to be blamed on the players. But the truth of the matter is that their commitment, passion and hard work is being used just so that their team owners, managers, all the Razers and other sponsors, and all the "content providers" can get exposure for their brands. Then, a few years from now they'll just move on to a different game to appeal to a new audience and ride the marketing wave of new game industry products as the players get left behind to rot and figure out what to do with the rest of their lives.
5/5 post would quote again
"esports" is a total scam. All you have to do is look at the money. Who benefits the most from it? It sure isn't the players or the fans.
The ESPORTS hype makes the forums worse to read (SC2 LR are awful) and we get casters who are not knowledgeable. Even Idra's bm is not genuine anymore ! Nowadays it is just an advertizing trick.
Well at least the money isn't fake lol.
P-S: Also i hate how it transforms people into dumb fanboys instead of players. But you can't blame Sc2 for that, it started with bw.
Talin really hit the spot. I just don't see this model of esports lasting in the medium to long term. The day that nerds stop paying for $60 gaming mice, online subscriptions and other overpriced shirts/keyboards/mousepads will be the day Esports topples over.
Its just so different now - the times that Boxer himself wrote in his autobiography and post-SC2.
Well every story needs it's villains... Maybe we should form a secret society of anti e-sports fanatics and have super secret meetings in secret bases and whatnot... We can even have our own secret communication network etc.. awesome! We need to get that guy onboard that organized that tournament and took of with all the money!
People who say "I remember when games were X" etc just sound like idiots. People would have killed to have a professional scene like SC2 has now when CS came out, same when Quake was big. Stop living in your dreamworld nostalgia, the gaming world hasn't turned to shit, you just happened to grow up. It's especially ridiculous when people say "games used to be all about fun, which is ruined now" when it relies 100% on the player. A bunch of 11 year old kids playing around with SC2 like we did with BW are having the same experience, they don't give a shit about whether or not Destiny uses bad words on stream.
Damn, man, seems to be alot of built up rage coming out in this blog. Though, I'm a bit shocked to see you of all people take this stance. I mean, after your rampage through bronze and all the hate your blogs get, I'd think you'd just not give a fuck about all the haters out there.
I don't agree with much of what you have written here. I mean, there are tons of games that have exactly what you are looking for. Small communities, focus on fun. Shit, even SC2 has tons of custom games and drone-rushing randomness to offer if you're into that sort of thing and want to stear clear of all the drama.
To me it sounds like you are just tired of the tournament community, which is understandable I guess. But the way I see it is you just have to focus on the aspects of games that you like. There are always asshats out there who talk big and shout ten-times louder than everyone else, but they are not what gaming is about
Very well written as always though and well thought out as usual. I hope you enjoy Diablo 3!
Yea let's shit all over everything and add more negativity to a constant stream of negativity because we think our opinion is more important than everyone else's.
I think it's alarming that so many people took the "FOR ESPORTS" jargon seriously. I thought it was just a dumb freaking joke a few of the mods passed by here YEARS ago and it got picked up by the more obstinate and easily ignored members of the forum.
5/5, your bronzie adventures were fun to read but this one was just as good of a read (without all those fancy pictures).
I don't mind people using the word "eSports" as long as they understand the responsibility that comes with the word. Sadly, from what I've observed in the past few months and its controversial incidents, this community (TL is supposedly one of the most mature and well moderated out there) is still not ready to present eSports to the mainstream media and culture.
On May 02 2012 21:07 TwoToneTerran wrote: I think it's alarming that so many people took the "FOR ESPORTS" jargon seriously. I thought it was just a dumb freaking joke a few of the mods passed by here YEARS ago and it got picked up by the more obstinate and easily ignored members of the forum.
Ï know that the FGC-casters use "FOR ESPORTS" like a joke when they swear on stream and need to "act professional" and such. They also use it pretty ironically when there's a lot of people at a venue.
This is so fucking stupid, It is like one of those SC2 RUINED TEAM LIQUID posts, IT WAS SO MUCH COOLER BEFORE! Yeah the site and moderation has changed alot but esports/competitive gaming has always been at the core of the site. If you want to blame or rage at anything you can be angry at gamers for being immature/childish. But thats kind of expected isnt it?
These sheeps yelling ESPORTS is lame. Its great that finally someone actually speaks my mind. "BW is the past, let it go, its SC2 time, for sake of ESPORTS!" yea....eat shit.
I'll finish reading the thread in a moment but first I want to express my feelings on the subject and maybe not that original.
I really hate the term 'esports', it's tossed around as if it's a movement that unites fans of a game under one banner with a devotional aura. I hate people who make blogs complaining about their opponents not 'gg'-ing after games or not replying to their 'gl hf'. And all this excess fat people put around the game that is not necessary.
What I like is the game of starcraft, people play on ladder against each other. They play UMS, BGH, Comp Stomps and Fastest... And there are some who are really good and actually are competing in the game for real monies. It's even televised in Korea, because there are so many people who enjoy it.
But when people tell you how you should act and feel about it to make the game and scene something it is not it makes me sick in the guliver...
The thing I notice most about the BW/Sc2 communities is how they came to be. The BW community is much more organic and really grew out of just a pure love for the game and a passion to discuss it on this site. The Sc2 community is a lot more immature and spouts a lot more hypocrisy since many of the members are immature and have frankly flawed views about starcraft/esports/etc...
I hear you Gheed, and yes, that thread about Destiny (along with the way Orb was manhandled) has really shaken my confidence as well. Though I am sticking around for the pro matches, which I still find beauty in.
"WAH WAH I hate that SC2 has a mature community that actually gets outraged at the fact that someone used a racial slur. Why can't TL be more like 4Chan. why I'd be King among Men with my platinum skills that I use to beat down on people who aren't as good as me and make fun of them for it."
I have been playing video games longer then a lot of people here have been alive (which makes me no more or less special than anyone else) and I've never joined any gaming community precisely because the vocal majority of all of them has been populated by people like Destiny who's only purpose in playing a game is to call someone else a f*g as loud as they can. Imagine my surprise when I found TL. A community that's about more then just 13 year olds getting off by saying dirty things on the internet. I honestly couldn't care less about Esports, it's just not my thing but if it means that the community is forced to mature a little bit then I don't see how that can be a bad thing. You'll always have 4chan.
Sometimes I wonder whether "for ESPORTS" talk is a way to convey the deep-seated fear that SC2 is far from economically viable over the long-term. If it was truly secure, then why would people fear the ruination of it? The thought would be ridiculous.
Let the product stand on its merits, not what it could be, not what it was promised to be, not what it was named after.
Re: the destiny drama: If the entire edifice of ESPORTS could be brought crashing down with some ill-advised emails over some ill-advised slurs, was it ever reasonable to build it in the first place?
On May 02 2012 23:30 FryBender wrote: This is what I got out of this Blog:
"WAH WAH I hate that SC2 has a mature community that actually gets outraged at the fact that someone used a racial slur. Why can't TL be more like 4Chan. why I'd be King among Men with my platinum skills that I use to beat down on people who aren't as good as me and make fun of them for it."
I have been playing video games longer then a lot of people here have been alive (which makes me no more or less special than anyone else) and I've never joined any gaming community precisely because the vocal majority of all of them has been populated by people like Destiny who's only purpose in playing a game is to call someone else a f*g as loud as they can. Imagine my surprise when I found TL. A community that's about more then just 13 year olds getting off by saying dirty things on the internet. I honestly couldn't care less about Esports, it's just not my thing but if it means that the community is forced to mature a little bit then I don't see how that can be a bad thing. You'll always have 4chan.
SC2.. mature community? That's an oxymoron if I ever did see one. There are still a lot of guys who think they are the shit and you know what? You come off as one of them.
The term "Esports" means very little to me, since almost every single tour is heavily invite-only to make money and sponsors, no sportmanship involved whatsoever.
When we have a regulation body, then we can talk about Esports. Because as it is, it's just capitalist market gone wild with no rules whatsoever.
On May 02 2012 23:30 FryBender wrote: This is what I got out of this Blog:
"WAH WAH I hate that SC2 has a mature community that actually gets outraged at the fact that someone used a racial slur. Why can't TL be more like 4Chan. why I'd be King among Men with my platinum skills that I use to beat down on people who aren't as good as me and make fun of them for it."
I have been playing video games longer then a lot of people here have been alive (which makes me no more or less special than anyone else) and I've never joined any gaming community precisely because the vocal majority of all of them has been populated by people like Destiny who's only purpose in playing a game is to call someone else a f*g as loud as they can. Imagine my surprise when I found TL. A community that's about more then just 13 year olds getting off by saying dirty things on the internet. I honestly couldn't care less about Esports, it's just not my thing but if it means that the community is forced to mature a little bit then I don't see how that can be a bad thing. You'll always have 4chan.
SC2.. mature community? That's an oxymoron if I ever did see one. There are still a lot of guys who think they are the shit and you know what? You come off as one of them.
I never said that SC2 community is mature but that TL is. But if I had to rank gaming communities by maturity then SC2 would be up there near the top.
I have no idea what being "the shit" means but if it means that I think I'm more mature then 14 year olds saying things just because they know it's inappropriate to say them then yes I am "THE SHIT."
I just hate the SC2 community. I think it's a truly horrible group of people, and they seem to get worse and worse as time passes. You'd think they would settle down after a time but they've done nothing but become more obnoxious and even less aware of their own rampant stupidity
On May 02 2012 23:30 FryBender wrote: This is what I got out of this Blog:
"WAH WAH I hate that SC2 has a mature community that actually gets outraged at the fact that someone used a racial slur. Why can't TL be more like 4Chan. why I'd be King among Men with my platinum skills that I use to beat down on people who aren't as good as me and make fun of them for it."
I have been playing video games longer then a lot of people here have been alive (which makes me no more or less special than anyone else) and I've never joined any gaming community precisely because the vocal majority of all of them has been populated by people like Destiny who's only purpose in playing a game is to call someone else a f*g as loud as they can. Imagine my surprise when I found TL. A community that's about more then just 13 year olds getting off by saying dirty things on the internet. I honestly couldn't care less about Esports, it's just not my thing but if it means that the community is forced to mature a little bit then I don't see how that can be a bad thing. You'll always have 4chan.
SC2.. mature community? That's an oxymoron if I ever did see one. There are still a lot of guys who think they are the shit and you know what? You come off as one of them.
I never said that SC2 community is mature but that TL is. But if I had to rank gaming communities by maturity then SC2 would be up there near the top.
I have no idea what being "the shit" means but if it means that I think I'm more mature then 14 year olds saying things just because they know it's inappropriate to say them then yes I am "THE SHIT."
I daresay Sc2 is one of the most mature video gaming communities, but I don't think that's enough. I think Sc2 should be one of the most mature hobby communities in general. We're good people and are certainly capable of it-- but simply being more mature than the MOBA or WoW community isn't good enough for me. We can do better. We will.
On May 02 2012 15:06 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote: Agreed completely, fuck Esports.
Remember when we were all amused when SKT made an English website with the word 'Esportainment' because noone took Esports seriously. If only we knew then how the term would get hijacked.
On May 02 2012 14:23 Jinsho wrote: Again you're posting some nonsense in order to be popular and edgy, much like your so called bronze adventures you value so highly, which was just you trolling around bronze players with some edgy as fuck "humourous writing".
This reminds me of the FGC desperately trying to weasel their way out of the sexual harassment and racism debacles by claiming that they're not esports. They're so grassroots man, you wouldn't understand. It's always been part of the scene man. You wouldn't understand. That's how we do things here man. You wouldn't understand. It's tough living in the hood man and that's how things are and id you don't like it then you're not part of our community.
I wish you weren't part of the SC2 community. Do go play single player. Come back once you've learned that the world does not revolve around you and your funny and edgy antics. Esports will do fine without you.
Lol i wish you weren't part of the SC2 community either, your blatant hate for individuals is detrimental to any kind of argument you have. Come back once you've learned that the world doesn't revolve around you and your opinions...The world in general will do fine without you. See what i did there?
I personally miss the days when not everything in the video-gaming world revolved around the pro-gamers. Does anybody remember how fun BW was when it was a game played almost entirely for casual entertainment? It was only later that people decided to make money off of it...
Then PLAY it like casual entertainment.... no-one is stopping you from casually playing with your friends, im sorry, but are you just so stupid you don't see that?
Hear, hear. SC2 has gotten way too serious for me and all the rabid drama gets boring rather quickly as well - I hope you find what you're looking for in Diablo Gheed I'll be holding out for GW2 in the same spirit.
I want a little bit of both worlds though. I like esports, I just don't like how we are constantly adapting to what we think the mainstream would like, because it feels like we are forgetting our roots. I'm not talking about racial slurs here, but things like having hot girls host events instead of knowledgeable people from the community etc.
I like the cozy feeling of having a group of people who do something because of passion and not because of money and fame. I think this is why Dreamhack just gets esports, and they have the best responses after events. They host events created by gamers for gamers.
Yeah, I agree. I don't see it ever being truly financially viable, and people really just say the dumbest things about how x or y is 'hurting our image to be legitimate'. Seems like a bunch of people trying so hard to seem 'mature'.
All I hear from this thread is whining - in fact, I find it hypocritical for Gheed certainly benefited (e.g. lots of views) on his blogs based on the popularity of SC2. If it were more of a niche game, his blogs would certainly not be as popular.
On May 02 2012 23:30 FryBender wrote: This is what I got out of this Blog:
"WAH WAH I hate that SC2 has a mature community that actually gets outraged at the fact that someone used a racial slur. Why can't TL be more like 4Chan. why I'd be King among Men with my platinum skills that I use to beat down on people who aren't as good as me and make fun of them for it."
I have been playing video games longer then a lot of people here have been alive (which makes me no more or less special than anyone else) and I've never joined any gaming community precisely because the vocal majority of all of them has been populated by people like Destiny who's only purpose in playing a game is to call someone else a f*g as loud as they can. Imagine my surprise when I found TL. A community that's about more then just 13 year olds getting off by saying dirty things on the internet. I honestly couldn't care less about Esports, it's just not my thing but if it means that the community is forced to mature a little bit then I don't see how that can be a bad thing. You'll always have 4chan.
SC2.. mature community? That's an oxymoron if I ever did see one. There are still a lot of guys who think they are the shit and you know what? You come off as one of them.
I never said that SC2 community is mature but that TL is. But if I had to rank gaming communities by maturity then SC2 would be up there near the top.
I have no idea what being "the shit" means but if it means that I think I'm more mature then 14 year olds saying things just because they know it's inappropriate to say them then yes I am "THE SHIT."
Same applies to TL regardless of the forum section. I'm sorry but this community is very far from being mature. We're just as vulgar as the other communities and there's a whole lot of crap.
This has nothing to do with age. In fact if you look at most of the BW veterans you would realize a lot of these guys are actually well into their twenties or even thirties like myself.
I wouldn't even look down on people regardless of their age because there are a few smarties in the bunch. -_-
It's a foolish stance man. No other way of putting it.
This is the best blog post I've read in quite some time. Thanks for putting it out there. It needed to be said, and you said it well.
eSports needs variety and different opinions. It needs people to start thinking for themselves, making their own minds on issues, instead of following band wagons like zombies.. We're not an 'indie' crowd anymore... People conform so much to good manners, marketing values, overzealous moderators, karma smacks. etc, etc. that the community as a whole might as well be a bunch of tame quire boys.
Some facts are true. I didn't come to church nor to funeral. I came to watch a stream commentated by a bunch of guys, not because they get 50% of the prize, but because they find it fun. While I think BarCrafts are a cool concept and the fact that this game got more popular is actually a weird phenomenon. I feel that the only reason this game got so big so far it's because of the company and because of the previous game. Starcraft is monotone, some units kill it entirely. Kill the colossus & the brood lord and then we might have a real shit.
PS: It's not eSports that are bad, but rather the people who think the contribute to it and disapprove your of your opinion and shut you down before you have the chance to even open your mouth with a new idea.
On April 30 2012 00:13 Gheed wrote: I can't want for him to switch over and either destroy everyone or be yet another mediocre korean terran so the stupid elephant argument can finally be put to rest and we can move on.
Or is this one of those things where you don't the community getting more exposure and now people need to be slightly respectful?
On April 30 2012 00:13 Gheed wrote: I can't want for him to switch over and either destroy everyone or be yet another mediocre korean terran so the stupid elephant argument can finally be put to rest and we can move on.
Or is this one of those things where you don't the community getting more exposure and now people need to be slightly respectful?
Uhhh.... I think you misunderstood his quote. He wasn't excited about BW players coming over, he was excited about the whole "elephant in the room" thing about how top BW players would do when switching to SC2 argument going away due to either having been proven or disproved.
I feel like, because of this esports thing, you can't be bad at this game and play just for fun anymore. Every player bellow Plat must obligarotily despise himself. Masters have the right to be ok with their performance but even for them it is seem as a good thing to have a low self-steem.
Fuck esports, fuck apologies. Fuck Starcraft Reddit and those guys who never talk about the game itself.
Myself, I would love to have a cable TV channel fully dedicated to Starcraft in my country. I would sign it. But if the way to get there is pathed with being a moron and not having fun anymore, fuck it.
EDIT: And btw, insulting people, even in the internet, is not honorable. Fortunately most countries have cyber harassment laws and Blizzard is willing to provide the adresses of offenders.
On May 03 2012 03:06 nerak wrote: I feel like, because of this esports thing, you can't be bad at this game and play just for fun anymore. Every player bellow Plat must obligarotily despise himself. Masters have the right to be ok with their performance but even for them it is seem as a good thing to have a low self-steem.
Hahahah, some people are really delusional, you are what you are, you play to have FUN. Not because some kind of bullshit "community pressure", Pathetic.
It's pathetic how much you let your opinion be influenced by people you apparently hate. The idea that 'eSports' invalidates any attempt to play a game for fun is ludicrous.
Your choice of words alone is so fantastical I really don't think the anger you are stewing in is healthy.
Feel free to live with a sadistic and pessimistic opinion of it, the world moves on without people like you. Nothing improves with such sour diatribes
On May 02 2012 12:18 Liquid`Jinro wrote: What a retarded thread lol
It's like whining about professional soccer destroying your ability to kick a ball around with your friends.
Esports evangelicism can be annoying as fuck, I dont disagree, but your post is silly.
This... I honestly don't understand why this has gotten such a positive reaction. Having fun playing the game and having a professional scene aren't mutually exclusive. Go ladder. Go play Iccup. There's nothing stopping you.
Wow, I feel the same exact way sometimes. Thank you for articulating it so well. I too wish that sometimes SC2 would die and we could just play Starcraft without worrying about all this other bullshit.
And to Jinro, it's nothing like you're example, but I'm not gonna sit here and explain this post to you if you didn't understand what he's trying to say.
Whats stopping you from ignoring the supposed blight that is esports and just playing the game and discussing it with friends? The amount of nostalgia induced circlejerking on TL now is sickening. Just because esports no longer has let (tragically, I admit) BW fall on its sword it doesn't mean you can throw a hissy fit and give a middle finger to something that many people have poured blood sweat and tears into so talented gamers can pursue their passion for fair pay and the adulation of fans.
Last night I had a dream that I was playing against Destiny in the grand finals of the MLG Spring Championships. for some odd reason, he was playing Terran and I was playing Zerg. He beat me with a proxy 3 rax and everyone cheered him for it.
There was more to the dream, but I explained the dream to my friend's mother who spent many years as a nurse in psychiatric hospitals. She said that she thought I was very frustrated with a certain aspect of my life and that my subconscious was telling me that it was time to move on.
I no longer believe that SC2 is the ultimate e-sport. I think that e-sports will continue to grow, but in spite of SC2, not because of it. The evidence is mounting - broken matchups, cheesey play continuing to be the superior strategy even in the GSL, the "community" exploding into childish behaviour at the drop of a hat. Idra's recent middle finger to the fans with his 6 pooling. The mapping community's inability (not their fault) to fix the inherent gameplay imbalances with superb maps.
Worst of all, all these things are combining to suck the fun out of starcraft. the leagues/ladder system can really suck my balls.
Blizzard Entertainment has one more chance in my mind to redeem themselves and prove that they are still a great company - Diablo 3. Otherwise I'll be waiting for the next RTS before I consider e-sports to be really taking flight.
On May 02 2012 14:23 Jinsho wrote: Again you're posting some nonsense in order to be popular and edgy, much like your so called bronze adventures you value so highly, which was just you trolling around bronze players with some edgy as fuck "humourous writing".
This reminds me of the FGC desperately trying to weasel their way out of the sexual harassment and racism debacles by claiming that they're not esports. They're so grassroots man, you wouldn't understand. It's always been part of the scene man. You wouldn't understand. That's how we do things here man. You wouldn't understand. It's tough living in the hood man and that's how things are and id you don't like it then you're not part of our community.
I wish you weren't part of the SC2 community. Do go play single player. Come back once you've learned that the world does not revolve around you and your funny and edgy antics. Esports will do fine without you.
Lol i wish you weren't part of the SC2 community either, your blatant hate for individuals is detrimental to any kind of argument you have. Come back once you've learned that the world doesn't revolve around you and your opinions...The world in general will do fine without you. See what i did there?
I personally miss the days when not everything in the video-gaming world revolved around the pro-gamers. Does anybody remember how fun BW was when it was a game played almost entirely for casual entertainment? It was only later that people decided to make money off of it...
Then PLAY it like casual entertainment.... no-one is stopping you from casually playing with your friends, im sorry, but are you just so stupid you don't see that?
LOL do you ladder at all? No shit i ONLY play team games with my friends now, ladder matches almost always end up in BM fests anyways. Where's the fun in that?
I'm honestly can't understand why how your blog got such high reviews or why it is so highly looked upon, when all I see in it is someone trying to impose his own arrogant and selfish view upon the world.
Why does ESPORTS imply a group of people that play only for money? Do you honestly thing each and every professional player is driven exclusively by the desire to earn money, are you so narrow minded to even imply this?
I am quite sure some of the most successful and hard working people in the pro scene, both BW and SC2, are driven by a lot more passions, they are driven by the love for the game, they are driven by an insatiable appetite for success and they are driven by a need to better themselves, and all of these represent their own form of fun and have their own set of rewards for different persons.
Ultimately professional gaming is a choice, some people might indeed join it for money, but the vast majority surely are driven by passion and fun, this is no different from other real life job choices, some chose jobs out of passion, some just do it for the money.
Which leads to my biggest problem with your post. You are intentionally and angrily venting your frustration and your inner rage on everyone in ESPORTS, you are wishing for its downfall and destruction with little to no thought for all the people involved.
All the casters that started commenting the game out of fun; all the players that actually work their hearts out to become the best to have fun and to show the best of their abilities; the coaches, former players, who decided to continue on with their passion by breeding the next generation of players; and all the viewers who watch tournaments, who cheer for their heroes triumphs, who weep bitterly at their shortcomings and who support the scene. You are shitting on the dreams of every passionate player who wants to make a living out of this, and every fan who wants to see these players succeed.
You are shitting on each and every one of these people and their choices, because of your narrow minded and arrogant view of how the world should be.
This world is full of choices, you can either chose to play the game purely for fun, casually and just for personal entertainment, or you can chose to use that passion to become a professional player, make a carrier out of it and to earn money while also doing what you find fun.
You can chose to do anything you want with your life, so long as it does not negatively impact others. So go ahead have your fun, play ladder, or ICCup or racers, or shooters, or whatever you want in your free, time, enjoy yourself, but don't you dare to look down upon the people who decided to take this fun and their skills to the next level.
And before I end my post I shall insert a small quote from Voltaire. "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
So while I respect your right to say your opinion, once you have posted it, you are open to criticism, so here is my opinion on your blog and your post.
Your opinion is the most passionately negative I have read in a long time, it is the most single minded, intolerant, hateful, arrogant and stupid of opinions that my eyes have had the horror of casting their vision upon, and I am even being kind with the wording.
Solid -5/5, because 0 is too kind for such an intolerant view on the scene. If you want something to passionately demonize, and bash, take it out on the big corporations, those that trow so much money into something that they actually do remove any and all sense of fun in doing such thing. And take it out on this pathetic consumerist society that seeks to make everyone a drone and to shun non conformists. eSports is far from being there.
On May 02 2012 14:23 Jinsho wrote: Again you're posting some nonsense in order to be popular and edgy, much like your so called bronze adventures you value so highly, which was just you trolling around bronze players with some edgy as fuck "humourous writing".
This reminds me of the FGC desperately trying to weasel their way out of the sexual harassment and racism debacles by claiming that they're not esports. They're so grassroots man, you wouldn't understand. It's always been part of the scene man. You wouldn't understand. That's how we do things here man. You wouldn't understand. It's tough living in the hood man and that's how things are and id you don't like it then you're not part of our community.
I wish you weren't part of the SC2 community. Do go play single player. Come back once you've learned that the world does not revolve around you and your funny and edgy antics. Esports will do fine without you.
Lol i wish you weren't part of the SC2 community either, your blatant hate for individuals is detrimental to any kind of argument you have. Come back once you've learned that the world doesn't revolve around you and your opinions...The world in general will do fine without you. See what i did there?
I personally miss the days when not everything in the video-gaming world revolved around the pro-gamers. Does anybody remember how fun BW was when it was a game played almost entirely for casual entertainment? It was only later that people decided to make money off of it...
Then PLAY it like casual entertainment.... no-one is stopping you from casually playing with your friends, im sorry, but are you just so stupid you don't see that?
LOL do you ladder at all? No shit i ONLY play team games with my friends now, ladder matches almost always end up in BM fests anyways. Where's the fun in that?
As someone who actively plays on EU and NA, the "bm" fest comment is bullshit. You can just say that 1v1 ladder feels empty/stale/pointless/frustrating. 95% of games I play either have well mannered players or people who leave without gg, which is perfectly acceptable in my mind.
It's funny how so many people come here and post without reading the thread. It's already been discussed why things like "Whats stopping you from ignoring the supposed blight that is esports and just playing the game and discussing it with friends?" don't apply.
If you're going to put the effort into posting in a thread, please do us all a favor of reading the entire thread before posting. If the thread is something like 100 pages, then I understand that you'll probably only read the first few pages / last few pages before posting. This thread is only 11 pages. If your opinion is so unimportant that you can't be bothered to read the whole 11 pages, then it's not important enough for us to spend time reading it either.
e: well it became 12 while I was writing this post, but the point remains.
The amount of butthurt and misunderstanding in this thread is staggering. Alot of people do not understand that Gheed likes competitive gaming, the tournaments, the fun, the passion, the concept that gamers can make money from winning. Gheed dislikes "E-Sports"- the drama, the bullshit, the taking everything way too seriously, the taking of oneself way too seriously.
But I suspect that even this blatant explanation will go over many peoples' heads.
EDIT: As the gentleman below me appears, point in case. EDIT2: Never mind. The person below simply lacks in mental facuilties in a general sense.
couldn't even read after you hope sc2 dies and shit.. sad day when u post on teamliquid how you want esports to die... when that as a community wants it to grow and be legitimized. So many ppl feel the same way and that is even more scary.. You said "fun" never enters the minds of ppl your right because in some ppl the mind works different would u rather work a retail job and take shit from a manager for 8 hours everyday.. or stay at home play video games and make money.. hmmmmm.... don't think you get that ppl that are really really pros treat this like an everyday job. and sometimes no FUN is not the answer... winning is. if you want FUN go play XBOX .. don't play PCgames ?
On May 03 2012 04:38 SpearWrit wrote: The amount of butthurt and misunderstanding in this thread is staggering. Alot of people do not understand that Gheed likes competitive gaming, the tournaments, the fun, the passion, the concept that gamers can make money from winning. Gheed dislikes "E-Sports"- the drama, the bullshit, the taking everything way too seriously, the taking of oneself way too seriously.
But I suspect that even this blatant explanation will go over many peoples' heads.
I think we're more butthurt over the fact that he just bashed sc2 into the ground.
And this is you
taking everything way too seriously,
and
this blatant explanation will go over many peoples' heads
I don't know... I feel like we need some 'banner' to unify on. The more money we see flowing into the scene, the better the entertainment value has become. At least, that's the way it is for me.
Aside from all the drama, all the name calling, I still love the fact that above all else, players are admired for their skills.
I hope all the sponsors pull out when they realize that marketing $200 dollar video cards to 16 year-olds too cheap to even pay for GomTV subscriptions is actually not a very good business plan.
i think advertising to 16 year olds is a great plan... i know i definitely had my most expensive computer parts back in the days when i was getting birthday/christmas presents from my parents. and when every penny i made was disposable income. i assume 16-22 year old males are the leading demographic for 200$ video cards....
On May 02 2012 14:23 Jinsho wrote: Again you're posting some nonsense in order to be popular and edgy, much like your so called bronze adventures you value so highly, which was just you trolling around bronze players with some edgy as fuck "humourous writing".
This reminds me of the FGC desperately trying to weasel their way out of the sexual harassment and racism debacles by claiming that they're not esports. They're so grassroots man, you wouldn't understand. It's always been part of the scene man. You wouldn't understand. That's how we do things here man. You wouldn't understand. It's tough living in the hood man and that's how things are and id you don't like it then you're not part of our community.
I wish you weren't part of the SC2 community. Do go play single player. Come back once you've learned that the world does not revolve around you and your funny and edgy antics. Esports will do fine without you.
Lol i wish you weren't part of the SC2 community either, your blatant hate for individuals is detrimental to any kind of argument you have. Come back once you've learned that the world doesn't revolve around you and your opinions...The world in general will do fine without you. See what i did there?
I personally miss the days when not everything in the video-gaming world revolved around the pro-gamers. Does anybody remember how fun BW was when it was a game played almost entirely for casual entertainment? It was only later that people decided to make money off of it...
Then PLAY it like casual entertainment.... no-one is stopping you from casually playing with your friends, im sorry, but are you just so stupid you don't see that?
LOL do you ladder at all? No shit i ONLY play team games with my friends now, ladder matches almost always end up in BM fests anyways. Where's the fun in that?
As someone who actively plays on EU and NA, the "bm" fest comment is bullshit. You can just say that 1v1 ladder feels empty/stale/pointless/frustrating. 95% of games I play either have well mannered players or people who leave without gg, which is perfectly acceptable in my mind.
Maybe for you, but whenever I play half the time it ends up being a balance discussion argument in the middle of the game, which then carries on through chat into the next for whatever reason. Another 25% of the time ends with "fucking newb l2p, Protoss/Terran/Zerg OP race" which just gets really annoying after the third or fourth time.
I agree with Jinro, this thread is retarded. If you don't like ESPORTS but still like the game then just play. I hate when people have to write blogs about things they dislike instead of just doing what they like. Kind of ironic.
You cynical sad man. Over analyzing every tidbit. I agree, let's all play and have fun, let Destiny say whatever he wants, but I enjoy tournaments and castings and all the awesome things related to eports. I do not, however, like idiots. Idiots are the ones flaming people for no reason, setting a standard for something that doesn't exist.
On May 03 2012 04:38 SpearWrit wrote: The amount of butthurt and misunderstanding in this thread is staggering. Alot of people do not understand that Gheed likes competitive gaming, the tournaments, the fun, the passion, the concept that gamers can make money from winning. Gheed dislikes "E-Sports"- the drama, the bullshit, the taking everything way too seriously, the taking of oneself way too seriously.
But I suspect that even this blatant explanation will go over many peoples' heads.
What you and the OP fail to realize is that the drama, the bullshit, the nitpicking, the name calling, the taking everything way too seriously and the taking of oneself way to seriously is a general problem with society and it is found in major and established sports as well.
You don't need to dig much to uncover sex scandals, racism scandals and other kind of bullshit related to real sports as well. So the entirety of the argument is irrelevant, if you want to hate on something, hate on this sick and twisted part of society don't bash on esports.
I couldn't disagree more. You assume to much. You assume that I started playing starcraft out of a desire to have fun casually. I don't just like to play video games as you say.. In fact no other video game interests me. I don't have fun when I play Skyrim or D3. In fact, I don't purchase games like that. The only games I purchase or download or play at all are ones that have a potential to be competitive. When I bought starcraft, I didn't click on single player! In fact I've never played a single player mission of the campaign. Not even one.
Anyway, everyone is entitled to their opinion and I hope you have fun playing video games while I get ready to watch the next big gsl match, and buy tickets to everything on the planet to support esports.
Why is this post getting attention? Sc2 is actually a pretty bad game, but man this post is just bad. Mods love drama on TL or something, it's just ridiculous. I can't wait untill NASA sends a bunch of rockets filled with morons into the sun. One can only hope ^_^
Ok at least i know im not the only one who has really started to hate the direction ESPORTS is taking.
On May 03 2012 05:10 Schwang wrote: I couldn't disagree more. You assume to much. You assume that I started playing starcraft out of a desire to have fun casually. I don't just like to play video games as you say.. In fact no other video game interests me. I don't have fun when I play Skyrim or D3. In fact, I don't purchase games like that. The only games I purchase or download or play at all are ones that have a potential to be competitive. When I bought starcraft, I didn't click on single player! In fact I've never played a single player mission of the campaign. Not even one.
Anyway, everyone is entitled to their opinion and I hope you have fun playing video games while I get ready to watch the next big gsl match, and buy tickets to everything on the planet to support esports.
Wait what? So you don't enjoy the video games but you continue to buy then O_o?
I hope we never get LAN. I hope all the sponsors pull out when they realize that marketing $200 dollar video cards to 16 year-olds too cheap to even pay for GomTV subscriptions is actually not a very good business plan
Hahaha, seriously. I never understood why sponsors try to advertise their overpriced computer products to thier targeted market. Kids and poor college students generally don't have money to throw on 300$ kingston hyperX SSDs or whatever the fuck they sell. Wonder how much profit they actually rake in selling those things.
On May 02 2012 14:23 Jinsho wrote: Again you're posting some nonsense in order to be popular and edgy, much like your so called bronze adventures you value so highly, which was just you trolling around bronze players with some edgy as fuck "humourous writing".
This reminds me of the FGC desperately trying to weasel their way out of the sexual harassment and racism debacles by claiming that they're not esports. They're so grassroots man, you wouldn't understand. It's always been part of the scene man. You wouldn't understand. That's how we do things here man. You wouldn't understand. It's tough living in the hood man and that's how things are and id you don't like it then you're not part of our community.
I wish you weren't part of the SC2 community. Do go play single player. Come back once you've learned that the world does not revolve around you and your funny and edgy antics. Esports will do fine without you.
Lol i wish you weren't part of the SC2 community either, your blatant hate for individuals is detrimental to any kind of argument you have. Come back once you've learned that the world doesn't revolve around you and your opinions...The world in general will do fine without you. See what i did there?
I personally miss the days when not everything in the video-gaming world revolved around the pro-gamers. Does anybody remember how fun BW was when it was a game played almost entirely for casual entertainment? It was only later that people decided to make money off of it...
Then PLAY it like casual entertainment.... no-one is stopping you from casually playing with your friends, im sorry, but are you just so stupid you don't see that?
LOL do you ladder at all? No shit i ONLY play team games with my friends now, ladder matches almost always end up in BM fests anyways. Where's the fun in that?
As someone who actively plays on EU and NA, the "bm" fest comment is bullshit. You can just say that 1v1 ladder feels empty/stale/pointless/frustrating. 95% of games I play either have well mannered players or people who leave without gg, which is perfectly acceptable in my mind.
Maybe for you, but whenever I play half the time it ends up being a balance discussion argument in the middle of the game, which then carries on through chat into the next for whatever reason. Another 25% of the time ends with "fucking newb l2p, Protoss/Terran/Zerg OP race" which just gets really annoying after the third or fourth time.
A discussion involves two people. Just put the guys on ignore, continue playing. I guess I'm just better at ignoring it than other people, but seriously its just some dude on the internet whom you shall never meet. Just leave him to rage in silence.
Wow, you are a spectacular kind of idiot. One most people would not come across in their entire lifetime. There are not enough words in the English language to describe how much of an idiot you are. That said, I do kind of agree people over-exaggerate the "killing of e-sports", however now with kespa picking up Starcraft 2 and eventually switching over to it, Starcraft 2 as a SPORT is going to get bigger and bigger, even though this clearly causes you to have anger issues. Oh well, mads will be mad. Don't like Starcraft 2 being considered a "sport"? Too bad - it's much more than a game, your options are get over it and continue playing/watching it, or don't play it and whine about it on forums. Starcraft 2 is not perfect but I have confidence Blizzard will make it more and more balanced and a better game. It DOES deserve the title of "sport" simply because of the huge fan base treating it as such, plus the fact it has a very large skill gap just like traditional sports. You may not like e-sports, but it is the way of the future.
I personally am in love with it and am currently trying to have it's babies, but I understand your frustration. That thread was absurd in the stupidest way.
On May 03 2012 05:27 captainobvious wrote: Wow, you are a spectacular kind of idiot. One most people would not come across in their entire lifetime. There are not enough words in the English language to describe how much of an idiot you are. That said, I do kind of agree people over-exaggerate the "killing of e-sports", however now with kespa picking up Starcraft 2 and eventually switching over to it, Starcraft 2 as a SPORT is going to get bigger and bigger, even though this clearly causes you to have anger issues. Oh well, mads will be mad. Don't like Starcraft 2 being considered a "sport"? Too bad - it's much more than a game, your options are get over it and continue playing/watching it, or don't play it and whine about it on forums. Starcraft 2 is not perfect but I have confidence Blizzard will make it more and more balanced and a better game. It DOES deserve the title of "sport" simply because of the huge fan base treating it as such, plus the fact it has a very large skill gap just like traditional sports. You may not like e-sports, but it is the way of the future.
Why would you call him an "idiot" for telling his opinion?
On May 03 2012 01:45 Azzur wrote: All I hear from this thread is whining - in fact, I find it hypocritical for Gheed certainly benefited (e.g. lots of views) on his blogs based on the popularity of SC2. If it were more of a niche game, his blogs would certainly not be as popular.
And what exactly is preventing you from just playing the game, watching some stream and enjoying the ladder? Nobody is forcing you to listen to the hordes of ravenous morons, and if you believe stupidity is unique to esport, then I might have to disagree with you.
Maybe it's just that you don't like the game itself? I still get tremendous amount of fun from it whether I am competing on the ladder or playing on skype with friends.
Very nicely written thought, 5/5. ( and yes, fuck that thread)
So you're saying fuck esport but.... pretty much... not fuck esports? near the end you said maybe a stream for koreans? why not americans i'm curious why did u choose koreans? is it just because that's where you think it all got started?
And if you would enjoy watching a korean play a "competitive game" and i'm going to say that because obviously that's what you choose to call it even though it's what most people today would refer to it as electronic sports which is what we are all talking about here, but.. your only really just putting it a vague way.
To me it seems you're pretty close to being a hypocrite here lol...
I for one am not going to let other people driven to hail or go out of there way to devout themselves to Esports bother me instead I will embrace it...
Weeeeeell. I've seen this thing develop for the last 10 years. I love how it grew/grows. The catchphrase "esports" and the idiots overusing it (probably don't even really know what they're talking about) though... yeah diaf.
On May 03 2012 05:27 captainobvious wrote: Wow, you are a spectacular kind of idiot. One most people would not come across in their entire lifetime. There are not enough words in the English language to describe how much of an idiot you are. That said, I do kind of agree people over-exaggerate the "killing of e-sports", however now with kespa picking up Starcraft 2 and eventually switching over to it, Starcraft 2 as a SPORT is going to get bigger and bigger, even though this clearly causes you to have anger issues. Oh well, mads will be mad. Don't like Starcraft 2 being considered a "sport"? Too bad - it's much more than a game, your options are get over it and continue playing/watching it, or don't play it and whine about it on forums. Starcraft 2 is not perfect but I have confidence Blizzard will make it more and more balanced and a better game. It DOES deserve the title of "sport" simply because of the huge fan base treating it as such, plus the fact it has a very large skill gap just like traditional sports. You may not like e-sports, but it is the way of the future.
you call the op an idiot while completely missing his point. well the idiot you are looking for might be closer than you thought...
On May 03 2012 05:27 captainobvious wrote: Wow, you are a spectacular kind of idiot. One most people would not come across in their entire lifetime. There are not enough words in the English language to describe how much of an idiot you are. That said, I do kind of agree people over-exaggerate the "killing of e-sports", however now with kespa picking up Starcraft 2 and eventually switching over to it, Starcraft 2 as a SPORT is going to get bigger and bigger, even though this clearly causes you to have anger issues. Oh well, mads will be mad. Don't like Starcraft 2 being considered a "sport"? Too bad - it's much more than a game, your options are get over it and continue playing/watching it, or don't play it and whine about it on forums. Starcraft 2 is not perfect but I have confidence Blizzard will make it more and more balanced and a better game. It DOES deserve the title of "sport" simply because of the huge fan base treating it as such, plus the fact it has a very large skill gap just like traditional sports. You may not like e-sports, but it is the way of the future.
It's funny that you call the Op an idiot when you clearly cannot understand his post. Also, there is really no reason to get all aggressive even if he did infact write what you think he wrote. He never said sc2 isn't a sport, or that it's not good enough to be a sport, what he said is that people have forgotten to play the game for fun and that everyone is to competitive and to serious, at such lengths that someone saying bad words in the game will cause major drama as it'll portray a poor picture of esports.
Just like you, I disagree with op, but this post was both entertaining and did strike right on the head of something quite spectacular in the sc2 community. So I don't see any reason to call OP an idiot, or in fact stupid at all.
Personally, I don't think anyone should use racist/homophobic slurs, and I love being competitve, so for me the matureness and competitiveness of the SC2 community is perfect, but it obviously does not match for everyone.
This is a well written viewpoint that is easy to get behind and sympathize with. Really great post ^_^
I think elements of this are best reflected when we see pro players in environments like Homestory cup. Even though it's technically an esport event, there's alot less bullshit in the air and we get to see the purest form of enjoyment when players look legitimately happy to be playing the game they love.
We gained alot with the growth of the community in SC2 and I personally hope that continues to grow, but the more it grows, the more it seems we lose in the process. Plain and simple enjoyment of playing seems to be one of those things lost.
Ultimately what got us here is our enjoyment of just, playing the game.
Wow, you are a spectacular kind of idiot. One most people would not come across in their entire lifetime. There are not enough words in the English language to describe how much of an idiot you are. That said, I do kind of agree people over-exaggerate the "killing of e-sports", however now with kespa picking up Starcraft 2 and eventually switching over to it, Starcraft 2 as a SPORT is going to get bigger and bigger, even though this clearly causes you to have anger issues. Oh well, mads will be mad. Don't like Starcraft 2 being considered a "sport"? Too bad - it's much more than a game, your options are get over it and continue playing/watching it, or don't play it and whine about it on forums. Starcraft 2 is not perfect but I have confidence Blizzard will make it more and more balanced and a better game. It DOES deserve the title of "sport" simply because of the huge fan base treating it as such, plus the fact it has a very large skill gap just like traditional sports. You may not like e-sports, but it is the way of the future.
Why would you call him an "idiot" for telling his opinion?
To be honest i usually stop readings people post if they have something like "Idiot, retard etc,," in the first sentence. Its easy to tell their argument will be pointless and a lot of finger pointing and arguments that will just in general make my head hurt.
Wow, you are a spectacular kind of idiot. One most people would not come across in their entire lifetime. There are not enough words in the English language to describe how much of an idiot you are. That said, I do kind of agree people over-exaggerate the "killing of e-sports", however now with kespa picking up Starcraft 2 and eventually switching over to it, Starcraft 2 as a SPORT is going to get bigger and bigger, even though this clearly causes you to have anger issues. Oh well, mads will be mad. Don't like Starcraft 2 being considered a "sport"? Too bad - it's much more than a game, your options are get over it and continue playing/watching it, or don't play it and whine about it on forums. Starcraft 2 is not perfect but I have confidence Blizzard will make it more and more balanced and a better game. It DOES deserve the title of "sport" simply because of the huge fan base treating it as such, plus the fact it has a very large skill gap just like traditional sports. You may not like e-sports, but it is the way of the future.
Why would you call him an "idiot" for telling his opinion?
To be honest i usually stop readings people post if they have something like "Idiot, retard etc,," in the first sentence. Its easy to tell their argument will be pointless and a lot of finger pointing and arguments that will just in general make my head hurt.
I guess I somehow always hope it would end in some sort of all resolving irony.
I've tried to get to the bottom as to why esports seems so shitty.
Here's my theory.
A good majority of the user base are nerds. They were probably bullied as children and now they have an opportunity to be the bullies and it feels empowering. If you look up the definition of bully you'll see it's actually a perfect word for what's going on.
The saddest part though, is unlike those bullies we encountered in elementary school, we don't realize we're being bullies and then add group think to the equation and BAM, we got the SC2 community in a nutshell.
I personally find it entertaining as hell. People are too full of themselves.
What esports needs is more media involvement. TL is where we get all our SC2 news... could you imagine what America would be like if the only news outlet was the White House?
We need press conferences after events. The media would keep everyone in check. Could you imagine if the AP released a story about IdrA calling someone a 'faggot'? Sponsorships would be lost and everyone would have to act like they should: professionally.
I get it. You're killing ESPORTS. (People that don't type it all in caps are also killing ESPORTS.) And if you want to fuck ESPORTS - great. There's actually this blog post about it... funny as hell. I'd look it up, but I gotta skate so I'm keeping it brief.
I think there's two things... there's playing video games and having fun. It's great. Everyone down there in bronze? Yeah, they're not in it for ESPORTS, they're in it to play a game and have fun. Hell, there are people in GM that don't give a damn about ESPORTS. They're not playing competitively - they want to have fun. (They're just so good they need to play pros to have fun - everyone else is a ROFLSTOMP.) Then there is ESPORTS, this mecca of money and glamour and kpop girlfriends and such. (I blame InControl and White Ra. They are about the ESPORTS, they make money, and they both have incredible fiance/wife. Seriously, man? Miss America? C'mon. Don't set the bar too low.) The fun players are probably not all that interested in ESPORTS other than as another avenue of fun. Like people that have favorite sports teams, or that get really into tennis or competitive ballroom dancing.
Are people going crazy about Destiny and how he "represents" the community to the outside world, that he maybe killing ESPORTS? Yeah. Should they? That's a different question, and it has absolutely fuck all to do with ESPORTS. (I have my own opinion, but y'know what? It's mine, you can't have it.)
Your writing and honesty, Gheed, are as good as ever. Great blog. Don't let the 1% get you down man. We still need someone probing the depths of the 99% to find out what the hell is happening in the bronze league.
I totally agree. Fucking hate it that Blizzard made SC2 to be an Esport. They should just make video games like they did in all their other games, make it fun, then balance it. I really hope they start doing this in the future so that people, who have Sc2 as their first RTS, actually can see what kind of quality of games they actually can produce. I think D3 is not made to be an Esport which, if that is true, will hopefully make it a really good game, at least that is what I think.
I disagree wholeheartedly. I am no slave to e-sports. I pay money for MLG pay-per-view because it is worth the value to me. I try and help the community grow because I love it. I enjoy the fact that there is a way for people to make a living by playing video games. I dreamed growing up that one day I would be making money by beating others at video games. I did not fulfill that dream, but I can live it vicariously through SC2 pros. I used to watch football all the time, now I hardly ever do. I would rather watch SC2 or LoL. I love e-sports.
If you dislike that the word is used only to create hype and "make" people do stuff for the good of e-sports, I get that. If you want Starcraft 2 to die because it's popular and you are a starcraft hipster and liked it before it got all cool and trendy, then that is childish. Not targeting the OP only here, but mainly the responses I see in this thread.
Oh by the way, it's rather funnyridiculous ironic how some posters in this thread naturally assume that hardcore fans are in it for esports, which I suppose puts the rest of us in the "casual" fan category of some sort.
>trying as hard as humanly possible not to offend anyone. We're like the fucking Mormons!
>We would just enjoy ourselves.
It cuts both ways.
Believe it or not I have a lot MORE fun when my opponents on ladder are NOT constantly going "EZ EZ EZ Faggot Faggot Faggot Faggot U mad bro? U mad bro? U mad bro?" and trying to generally incite as much rage as they can. Yet this is seen as the cool, badass, BM thing to do now.
This has nothing to do with esports. After I run into an opponent like that that I start to question why the fuck am I hanging out in this toxic community in the first place.
Acting like an asshole is not the 'life' of the starcraft community.
If deliberately calling people gooks, faggots, niggers, to be as hurtful as possible with your insults is 'gaming culture' then fuck gaming culture.
On May 03 2012 06:26 oniman999 wrote: I disagree wholeheartedly. I am no slave to e-sports. I pay money for MLG pay-per-view because it is worth the value to me. I try and help the community grow because I love it. I enjoy the fact that there is a way for people to make a living by playing video games. I dreamed growing up that one day I would be making money by beating others at video games. I did not fulfill that dream, but I can live it vicariously through SC2 pros. I used to watch football all the time, now I hardly ever do. I would rather watch SC2 or LoL. I love e-sports.
If you dislike that the word is used only to create hype and "make" people do stuff for the good of e-sports, I get that. If you want Starcraft 2 to die because it's popular and you are a starcraft hipster and liked it before it got all cool and trendy, then that is childish. Not targeting the OP only here, but mainly the responses I see in this thread.
I was going to write a similar response, but you beat me to it. I love watching MLG/GSL etc., I pay money b/c it's definitely worth it to me (way more bang for the buck than going out to a movie, for example). <3 esports
Hello, former brood-war player here and member of the fighting game community. I'd like to say that OP's post largely echoes the prevalent attitude of the FGC towards embracing "eSports". I'm glad we're not the only ones opposed to this hyper-capitalistic idea of the 'eSports' industry and its rapid growth at the expense of preserving gaming culture. Kudos to you OP.
While I don't necessarily disagree with the notion of ESPORTS, i just feel as though we are artificially prolonging the existance of starcraft 2. Blowing life into an existance that should be dead. The developement of its competitive life feels so unnatural, and every one knows it. Right now, the existance of the korean scene is simply keeping it alive, and it feels stale.
I'll go hang out in the dota 2 forum and have fun instead of the starcraft scene, which doesn't feel very fun anymore.
I don't agree with everything in this blog, but I sympathize with the general idea. Red carpets, suits for commentators, millions of dollars in prize money? We're playing and watching a video game. This should be about fun.
Well I like just having more people watch the same thing with me.
But disregarding sportsE, what exactly are we trying to protect when we set up rules and regulations for behaviors in non-tournament settings?
This. If Destiny goes and calls his opponent a gook during a live tournament, then yes there should be nonzero consequences. Random ladder games are not live tournaments and he can say what he damn well pleases (within the bounds of the SC2 TOS).
For me - someone who has never experienced the gaming culture you are talking about nor competitive gaming without esports directly related to it - this blog isnt convincing at all.
Well I like just having more people watch the same thing with me.
But disregarding sportsE, what exactly are we trying to protect when we set up rules and regulations for behaviors in non-tournament settings?
This. If Destiny goes and calls his opponent a gook during a live tournament, then yes there should be nonzero consequences. Random ladder games are not live tournaments and he can say what he damn well pleases (within the bounds of the SC2 TOS).
No kidding. Nobody is making a legal argument here, you are free to walk up to anybody you want to insult them. And that person is free to say, hey, leave my property. And other bystanders are free to say, 'wow, what a dick'. There's no law against being an asshole.
This isn't about Freedom of Speach, or ToS, or any legal matters.
I, on the other hand, am writing sponsors, only using/wearing sponsor products (it does kind of suck having to wear SteelSeries sweatpants or Razer shorts everyday), and making sure I upboat/downboat every post on rstarcraft.
I am interpreting 'fuck esports' as 'fuck the monetizing of starcraft competition'. I have sympathy with this view, and I also do not really care about SC2 competition becoming more profitable.
Investing money in Starcraft competition, to be worth it (financially), requires the control of media, players, etc to be top-down. So, the more Starcraft competition media is turned into a valuable commodity (again, financially), the less control we, as players, have over it.
In an ideal world, I would like all media to be controlled by us, the consumers; but sadly, our society is not set up that way. Profits must have a clear flow, from the masses that consume everything, to the capitalist that controls everything.
Supporting esports used to mean getting others passionate about playing a game. Now, supporting esports can only mean getting people to give their money to the for-profit companies that are trying to control their spending.
What I, and possibly the OP, find annoying is that the consumers in this community sometimes come across as sheep, conflating what esports used to mean, with what it does now; that they are 'owned' by new industry that seeks to dominate them; and that they are overzealous about their allegiance to "ESPORTS", a concept which is meaningless outside of financial statistics.
Of course this issue is really complicated. I do not pretend to have expressed anything other than my philosophical observations about the transition from community of players to a community of consumers.
On May 02 2012 17:34 sheaRZerg wrote: I have similar feelings whenever I watch starcraft 2 competitions. I'm not completely sure why it seems so different than the korean bw scene I have followed for so long. Certainly it existed because of their sponsors and whatnot. Maybe it was a distance thing. Those silly korean comercials weren't targeting me. Maybe its blizzards constant involvement that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I suppose never having to pay to watch bw didn't hurt.
The nature of sponsor's involvement in Korea and the west (or Korean SC2) is completely different though.
Brood War sponsors are a lot like F1 manufacturers. They have their own teams, the teams and the players directly represent the company, and competing in sports leagues is a matter of prestige and raising the company image. Samsung doesn't invest in the pro team just to (directly) reach a new audience and sell Galaxy Tabs to them. They have a pro team competing under their name to demonstrate that Samsung is competitive and can be successful at everything they do. Brood War (and SF, or other Kespa games) players are athletes who are paid specifically to compete and excel at what they do, and Brood War sponsors genuinely foster competition and the actual sports/athletic aspect of playing Starcraft because it's in their interest to do so.
Western esports sponsors are just that - sponsors. Look at the most common suspects - Razer and Steelseries. It's hard to find an "esports" event without their company brand being plastered somewhere - whether on multiple team jerseys, or next to the league logo, or at a booth, etc. They have their eggs in every basket, every other team, every game with even the slightest hint of a competitive scene. But make no mistake, they don't give a shit about gaming other than as an outlet and a perfect target audience to sell overpriced hardware that otherwise very few people would ever be interested in buying. In other words, they're parasites. They want to spread out as much as possible to make sure everyone is aware of them and their products, and that is the limit of their involvement. As a result, Starcraft 2 (or CS or any other game popular in the west) players are paid to make an appearance and get noticed. They're advertising space, they're just a shirt with a brand on it - that is ALL that they are being paid for, and how they go about getting noticed is up to them.
This is no way a jab at the actual players - I myself am emotionally invested in a lot of SC2 players (specifically TL ones because I see them as representatives of the community, but many others as well). Nor is any of this to be blamed on the players. But the truth of the matter is that their commitment, passion and hard work is being used just so that their team owners, managers, all the Razers and other sponsors, and all the "content providers" can get exposure for their brands. Then, a few years from now they'll just move on to a different game to appeal to a new audience and ride the marketing wave of new game industry products as the players get left behind to rot and figure out what to do with the rest of their lives.
Very interesting perspective. I think the part that helped was that we didn't understand everything. It was always a distant thing, focus solely on the game and the players. The only thing that you really had to like was watching the game. And as such TeamLiquid was also a haven for you to get extra information about a scene you'd never have access too unless you were there in person.
Well what to say... I agree with the blog. But also must say that I'm slightly averse to what this place has become. It feels like it's just too much. I don't think we have less love, just more hate. A place where people act like a caster is more important than a player. A loudmouth more important than actual results and skill. Events hyping with announcements over announcement. It almost feels like this is a game of who screams louder.
I'm not interested in E-Sports and I don't care quite much about SC2. I thought about it for quite some time and I think the real reason why I'm looking forward to the BW teams switching is just so we get the pro in professional right again. It's not about what you say and how you behave. You either bring it on the battlefield or you don't.
We always had loud mouths in the scene but we all knew where the real stuff is at. And that was in a OSL, MSL or Proleague. And we all new in the end nothing else matters.
And that's why it's such a shame I had to drown out all the noise here on teamliquid. To the point where I realised: There is not much left to be doing here anymore. And that's down right sad to me.
Probably one of the better threads ive read on these forums, although i like ESPORTS the whole "x is killing ESPORTS" thing is stale, and the amount of people who argue and bitch over pointless stuff like in the thread your on about is laugh worthy
Yes...it really is irritating. You can't even hear e-sports mentioned unless its all-capitalized for some reason.
Man I'm torn. I really dislike how you portray bronze leaguers. I mean yes some people are dumb, but was it really necessary to post all the conversations you had and portray them as having sub-canine intelligence? Also a lot of those people aren't necessarily"dumb", they just get freaked out psychologically when someone announces they're doing something they've never heard before and don't know if your advice is a lie (as well as other SC2 basics). But you seemed to equate that as being the same, and lumped everyone who didn't follow your advice as an idiot.
But now you're actually supporting something good without degrading anyone. yay. I too would like to see a game be fun to watch and support without it being turned into a religion. It probably has to do with the large number of "young" people. And you know how young people are, they're often very dramatic about things.
I get what you're saying. And although the competitiveness of online games is great, it can seem really retarded and useless sometimes. One point being is the ever encompassing definition of what "cheese" is. Where it used to be just restricted to early, blind strategies (like the 6 pool or cannon rush) has almost become anything that the losing player was unable to beat. I can't tell you how many people have complained to me "keep doing that strat while I get better and you don't" and you watch the replay and at the 15min mark and the guy has 1500k minerals banked, or has been on one base, or . . . etc.
I wonder if it's the current generation of gamers? A generation that's been tied to online play since their start. I remember my first gaming adventures were on SNES when there was no such thing as online play, and when that came out, (through PC gaming) it was fricken awesome! What other people did online didn't really matter to me -- I was just amazed that I could potentially be playing with someone from anywhere in the world! Perhaps it's the lack of amazement that's caused an over pretentiousness in the gaming community that leads to all the BS we've been seeing? I don't mean to overgeneralize, because I know there are many who still appreciate games as they are, but I feel like that crowd is deafened (if not completely silent to begin with) by an obnoxious minority.
On May 02 2012 23:30 FryBender wrote: This is what I got out of this Blog:
"WAH WAH I hate that SC2 has a mature community that actually gets outraged at the fact that someone used a racial slur. Why can't TL be more like 4Chan. why I'd be King among Men with my platinum skills that I use to beat down on people who aren't as good as me and make fun of them for it."
I have been playing video games longer then a lot of people here have been alive (which makes me no more or less special than anyone else) and I've never joined any gaming community precisely because the vocal majority of all of them has been populated by people like Destiny who's only purpose in playing a game is to call someone else a f*g as loud as they can. Imagine my surprise when I found TL. A community that's about more then just 13 year olds getting off by saying dirty things on the internet. I honestly couldn't care less about Esports, it's just not my thing but if it means that the community is forced to mature a little bit then I don't see how that can be a bad thing. You'll always have 4chan.
Incredibly off-base and ill-informed. You're one of the people this post is directed to. Grow up.
This is the best thread i have read on TL for a while. And it feels good to say it, i fucking hate esports, i fucking hate the corporate friendly SC2 scene and i hope we were just like the fighting games scene. I know, they are racists misogynists bigots, but at least they seem to have fun. Can't say the same. I had way more fun in the BW proleague threads.
Well I like just having more people watch the same thing with me.
But disregarding sportsE, what exactly are we trying to protect when we set up rules and regulations for behaviors in non-tournament settings?
This. If Destiny goes and calls his opponent a gook during a live tournament, then yes there should be nonzero consequences. Random ladder games are not live tournaments and he can say what he damn well pleases (within the bounds of the SC2 TOS).
I agree with the first two paragraphs all about the word itself and the overuse but then you lost me. I like it growing. I love that it's growing. I love that there are non-koreans that are able to make a living playing the game. I think the word needs to go but the thing that it represents right now should stay because it is really a good thing.
Well I like just having more people watch the same thing with me.
But disregarding sportsE, what exactly are we trying to protect when we set up rules and regulations for behaviors in non-tournament settings?
This. If Destiny goes and calls his opponent a gook during a live tournament, then yes there should be nonzero consequences. Random ladder games are not live tournaments and he can say what he damn well pleases (within the bounds of the SC2 TOS).
You haven't even grasped whats actually at issue here. If what he says in a ladder game is made public than people who are offended have every right to damn well say what they please to his sponsors. Your idea of no consequences is ignorant and completely lacking in perspective of how things work in the real world.
If I go onto a crowded street corner and start yelling about the martians its predictable that I'll be heckled at some point. If Destiny types racial slurs at people after getting cheesed than yes they will be offended and are perfectly within their rights to talk to his team, sponsors, etc. to see if they will punish him. Whether this will actually have any consequences, given that he makes his revenue from stream, or whether they should be offended at all is an entirely separate question.
Something that gets on my nerves is, "I've got 100 posts so I'm now obligated to give back to the community!" No you're not, if you have nothing valuable to contribute, or no actual self-desire to create something, don't. Don't feel pressured in to feeling you have to, just because JoeBlogs123 (dat pun) does it.
Well I like just having more people watch the same thing with me.
But disregarding sportsE, what exactly are we trying to protect when we set up rules and regulations for behaviors in non-tournament settings?
This. If Destiny goes and calls his opponent a gook during a live tournament, then yes there should be nonzero consequences. Random ladder games are not live tournaments and he can say what he damn well pleases (within the bounds of the SC2 TOS).
You haven't even grasped whats actually at issue here. If what he says in a ladder game is made public than people who are offended have every right to damn well say what they please to his sponsors. Your idea of no consequences is ignorant and completely lacking in perspective of how things work in the real world.
If I go onto a crowded street corner and start yelling about the martians its predictable that I'll be heckled at some point. If Destiny types racial slurs at people after getting cheesed than yes they will be offended and are perfectly within their rights to talk to his team, sponsors, etc. to see if they will punish him. Whether this will actually have any consequences, given that he makes his revenue from stream, or whether they should be offended at all is an entirely separate question.
Well...yes, you'd be right, nobody likes to get heckled at from the street. But I don't get how Destiny raging like every other gamer while gaming on his own stream is akin to the 'streetside pastor' experience. You don't have to walk by the stream, nor is it inefficient to turn off the stream and view something else, nor is it impossible to mute the stream or just look at something else while he's raging, unlike in the street example.
EDIT: Again, in a non-tournament perspective, it'd be quite like having a Google employee after work sitting on a bench in a park kicking a dog. The dog owner wouldn't go to Google to complain, even if he did know that the employee was from Google. The dog owner would simply complain to the employee. Now whether the employee listens...
EDIT 2: Yet again, I'm saying that one would most likely have a right to it, just like in a lot of things. Is it a sensible thing to complain to QG/Google (in my analogy)? Probably not...
On May 02 2012 10:20 Gheed wrote: And then, when everything is gone, when all the pathetic aspirations and all the illusions that esports will ever be big or important are stripped away, we can finally get back to why we came to this website in the first place: because we like playing video games. Maybe, in the future, that video game won't be Starcraft, maybe it won't even be a Blizzard game—I'm not sure they even deserve our support anymore—but maybe, for our sake, it'll be a good game.
There are perhaps 3 games you could call "esports". There are however tens of thousands of excellent games that are not esports. So if you hate esports, why pick one of the extremely rare titles that is part of esports? Why not pick something like Quake World, which is a terrific game, has a competitive scene with people who love the game, yet no money in it?
On May 02 2012 23:30 FryBender wrote: This is what I got out of this Blog:
"WAH WAH I hate that SC2 has a mature community that actually gets outraged at the fact that someone used a racial slur. Why can't TL be more like 4Chan. why I'd be King among Men with my platinum skills that I use to beat down on people who aren't as good as me and make fun of them for it."
I have been playing video games longer then a lot of people here have been alive (which makes me no more or less special than anyone else) and I've never joined any gaming community precisely because the vocal majority of all of them has been populated by people like Destiny who's only purpose in playing a game is to call someone else a f*g as loud as they can. Imagine my surprise when I found TL. A community that's about more then just 13 year olds getting off by saying dirty things on the internet. I honestly couldn't care less about Esports, it's just not my thing but if it means that the community is forced to mature a little bit then I don't see how that can be a bad thing. You'll always have 4chan.
Incredibly off-base and ill-informed. You're one of the people this post is directed to. Grow up.
I'm sorry but I need to grow up? Please explain to me how I'm off-base and ill-informed? Gheed specifically referenced the Destiny incident in writing this blog. He said that he was pissed off that people were making a big deal about the fact that Destiny uses racial slurs because it was bad for ESPORTS. I point out that if that's his reason for being upset about sponsor being involved then he can always go back to hanging out with 14 year olds who find that stuff hilarious just like Gheed apparently does. That's what 4chan is for. So please explain to me how I was off base
On May 03 JackDT wrote: If deliberately calling people gooks, faggots, niggers, to be as hurtful as possible with your insults is 'gaming culture' then fuck gaming culture.
Well I like just having more people watch the same thing with me.
But disregarding sportsE, what exactly are we trying to protect when we set up rules and regulations for behaviors in non-tournament settings?
This. If Destiny goes and calls his opponent a gook during a live tournament, then yes there should be nonzero consequences. Random ladder games are not live tournaments and he can say what he damn well pleases (within the bounds of the SC2 TOS).
You haven't even grasped whats actually at issue here. If what he says in a ladder game is made public than people who are offended have every right to damn well say what they please to his sponsors. Your idea of no consequences is ignorant and completely lacking in perspective of how things work in the real world.
If I go onto a crowded street corner and start yelling about the martians its predictable that I'll be heckled at some point. If Destiny types racial slurs at people after getting cheesed than yes they will be offended and are perfectly within their rights to talk to his team, sponsors, etc. to see if they will punish him. Whether this will actually have any consequences, given that he makes his revenue from stream, or whether they should be offended at all is an entirely separate question.
Well...yes, you'd be right, nobody likes to get heckled at from the street. But I don't get how Destiny raging like every other gamer while gaming on his own stream is akin to the 'streetside pastor' experience. You don't have to walk by the stream, nor is it inefficient to turn off the stream and view something else, nor is it impossible to mute the stream or just look at something else while he's raging, unlike in the street example.
EDIT: Again, in a non-tournament perspective, it'd be quite like having a Google employee after work sitting on a bench in a park kicking a dog. The dog owner wouldn't go to Google to complain, even if he did know that the employee was from Google. The dog owner would simply complain to the employee. Now whether the employee listens...
When he's streaming on a public site where anyone can randomly click on his stream to watch it, and suddenly he bursts out with racial slurs and someone gets offended and complains is that not a legitimate claim? His job is clearly based on the internet, and he's always representing his team and sponsors through ads on his stream. Do his sponsors or team want to be represented by that type of behavior? Does own3d's sponsors want to represent that behavior?
Please realize that he has banners embedded in his streams interface constantly flipping between his team and sponsors. It's clear that he's representing them every second of his stream and it's not just a "personal" time, if it was, he wouldn't have them on there.
6 years ago I would have been interested in it but now I don't like how seriously "the scene" is taken. It's a lot of things I guess. People taking streams and other players too seriously, "MyEG.net" or whatever (seriously, "My EG"? lol), Hot Pockets and Old Spice advertizements, how closely it's modeled to fit the sports image, booth babes, player "beef", way over-the-top production, just a lot of embarrassing things.
lmao there is such a stark contrast between people in this thread.
you have established gamers like Jinro, EG.lectr who make fun of this whole rant
then, you have the casuals like the OP who enjoy making fun of new bronze players to help mend their egos that have been bruised by the fact they're platinum or something
If you are a casual player who deep inside knows he will never accomplish anything in the game, of course you will say "screw e-sports and those main-stream good players" I just want to play a competitive 1v1 game for "fun" ONLY rawr! *then goes back to watching pro gamers stream for 8 hours*
but otherwise, this blog just embodies a very annoying part of the SC community. they like to generlize EVERYONE as crybabies who cry "killing-esports this" or "hurting sponsors that".. when in reality, that is just the very vocal minority.
anyways, how about you stop condemning the community / forums that you spend so much fucking time paying attention too.. and just go do something else?
Well I like just having more people watch the same thing with me.
But disregarding sportsE, what exactly are we trying to protect when we set up rules and regulations for behaviors in non-tournament settings?
This. If Destiny goes and calls his opponent a gook during a live tournament, then yes there should be nonzero consequences. Random ladder games are not live tournaments and he can say what he damn well pleases (within the bounds of the SC2 TOS).
You haven't even grasped whats actually at issue here. If what he says in a ladder game is made public than people who are offended have every right to damn well say what they please to his sponsors. Your idea of no consequences is ignorant and completely lacking in perspective of how things work in the real world.
If I go onto a crowded street corner and start yelling about the martians its predictable that I'll be heckled at some point. If Destiny types racial slurs at people after getting cheesed than yes they will be offended and are perfectly within their rights to talk to his team, sponsors, etc. to see if they will punish him. Whether this will actually have any consequences, given that he makes his revenue from stream, or whether they should be offended at all is an entirely separate question.
Well...yes, you'd be right, nobody likes to get heckled at from the street. But I don't get how Destiny raging like every other gamer while gaming on his own stream is akin to the 'streetside pastor' experience. You don't have to walk by the stream, nor is it inefficient to turn off the stream and view something else, nor is it impossible to mute the stream or just look at something else while he's raging, unlike in the street example.
EDIT: Again, in a non-tournament perspective, it'd be quite like having a Google employee after work sitting on a bench in a park kicking a dog. The dog owner wouldn't go to Google to complain, even if he did know that the employee was from Google. The dog owner would simply complain to the employee. Now whether the employee listens...
When he's streaming on a public site where anyone can randomly click on his stream to watch it, and suddenly he bursts out with racial slurs and someone gets offended and complains is that not a legitimate claim? His job is clearly based on the internet, and he's always representing his team and sponsors through ads on his stream. Do his sponsors or team want to be represented by that type of behavior? Does own3d's sponsors want to represent that behavior?
Please realize that he has banners embedded in his streams interface constantly flipping between his team and sponsors. It's clear that he's representing them every second of his stream and it's not just a "personal" time, if it was, he wouldn't have them on there.
Well then it's the same situation, except the Google employee has on a Google shirt and is carrying a Chromebook. Yea, Larry Page might not like that kinda guy, but he's not exactly kicking a dog in the middle of a Google coding competition, right? He's being his own person.
On May 02 2012 10:20 Gheed wrote: And then, when everything is gone, when all the pathetic aspirations and all the illusions that esports will ever be big or important are stripped away, we can finally get back to why we came to this website in the first place: because we like playing video games. Maybe, in the future, that video game won't be Starcraft, maybe it won't even be a Blizzard game—I'm not sure they even deserve our support anymore—but maybe, for our sake, it'll be a good game.
There are perhaps 3 games you could call "esports". There are however tens of thousands of excellent games that are not esports. So if you hate esports, why pick one of the extremely rare titles that is part of esports? Why not pick something like Quake World, which is a terrific game, has a competitive scene with people who love the game, yet no money in it?
Yeah, even if you only like RTS games, there are plenty of awesome games that get almost no attention. Company of Heroes, Men of War, European Escalation, Ruse, just to name a few recent ones that were great.
yeah, i posted something similar when Incontrol did his "HELP ESPORTS, GUYS, LET'S MAKE THIS GLOBAL" blog post a few months back. treating it like a charity or ideology or like something actually meaningful ... i dunno
thats a pathetic opinion. 1. You dont have to be evolved in esports at all, just play the game and dont care about the competition around it. No one forces you do be in esports. 2. Your text is a big load of "everything was better in the past". You are exactly like the WoW players who want wow vanilla back because everything was better at that time... rofl. Thats bullshit.
Seems like alot of people are falling for the same stupid train of thought like you.. thats just sad.
Well I like just having more people watch the same thing with me.
But disregarding sportsE, what exactly are we trying to protect when we set up rules and regulations for behaviors in non-tournament settings?
This. If Destiny goes and calls his opponent a gook during a live tournament, then yes there should be nonzero consequences. Random ladder games are not live tournaments and he can say what he damn well pleases (within the bounds of the SC2 TOS).
You haven't even grasped whats actually at issue here. If what he says in a ladder game is made public than people who are offended have every right to damn well say what they please to his sponsors. Your idea of no consequences is ignorant and completely lacking in perspective of how things work in the real world.
If I go onto a crowded street corner and start yelling about the martians its predictable that I'll be heckled at some point. If Destiny types racial slurs at people after getting cheesed than yes they will be offended and are perfectly within their rights to talk to his team, sponsors, etc. to see if they will punish him. Whether this will actually have any consequences, given that he makes his revenue from stream, or whether they should be offended at all is an entirely separate question.
Well...yes, you'd be right, nobody likes to get heckled at from the street. But I don't get how Destiny raging like every other gamer while gaming on his own stream is akin to the 'streetside pastor' experience. You don't have to walk by the stream, nor is it inefficient to turn off the stream and view something else, nor is it impossible to mute the stream or just look at something else while he's raging, unlike in the street example.
EDIT: Again, in a non-tournament perspective, it'd be quite like having a Google employee after work sitting on a bench in a park kicking a dog. The dog owner wouldn't go to Google to complain, even if he did know that the employee was from Google. The dog owner would simply complain to the employee. Now whether the employee listens...
When he's streaming on a public site where anyone can randomly click on his stream to watch it, and suddenly he bursts out with racial slurs and someone gets offended and complains is that not a legitimate claim? His job is clearly based on the internet, and he's always representing his team and sponsors through ads on his stream. Do his sponsors or team want to be represented by that type of behavior? Does own3d's sponsors want to represent that behavior?
Please realize that he has banners embedded in his streams interface constantly flipping between his team and sponsors. It's clear that he's representing them every second of his stream and it's not just a "personal" time, if it was, he wouldn't have them on there.
Well then it's the same situation, except the Google employee has on a Google shirt and is carrying a Chromebook. Yea, Larry Page might not like that kinda guy, but he's not exactly kicking a dog in the middle of a Google coding competition, right? He's being his own person.
His job is to play the game and represent his sponsors to make them money. All the money he gets from this is based from the fact that they think whatever he's doing in the community is going to make them money and represent their company.
On May 03 2012 08:19 -Exalt- wrote: lmao there is such a stark contrast between people in this thread.
you have established gamers like Jinro, EG.lectr who make fun of this whole rant
then, you have the casuals like the OP who enjoy making fun of new bronze players to help mend their egos that have been bruised by the fact they're platinum or something
If you are a casual player who deep inside knows he will never accomplish anything in the game, of course you will say "screw e-sports and those main-stream good players" I just want to play a competitive 1v1 game for "fun" ONLY rawr! *then goes back to watching pro gamers stream for 8 hours*
but otherwise, this blog just embodies a very annoying part of the SC community. they like to generlize EVERYONE as crybabies who cry "killing-esports this" or "hurting sponsors that".. when in reality, that is just the very vocal minority.
anyways, how about you stop condemning the community / forums that you spend so much fucking time paying attention too.. and just go do something else?
Here's another stark contrast in this thread - people who get it, and people who get it but pretend they don't because trivializing it is good for esports!
Meh the term e-sport might be overused and irritating at this point but why you'd want sc2 to fail and companies to pull sponsorships is beyond me. When I was a nerdy little kid, sc:bw and the pro scene surrounding it was the coolest thing in the world and I loved the idea of gaming being accepted to a very large extent in Korean society. That didn't happen out of coincidence it was the result of a few people putting tears, blood and sweat into turning the thing they loved the most into something that would last and, as it happened, would be able to support a certain amount of full time players.
And by the way there are hundreds if not thousands of gaming communities fitting well with your description of a 'better' scene.
I think what hes trying to say that if your offended by Destiny because of his language that is perfectly fine and acceptable. If you are offended by Destiny's language because other people might be offended and in order to preserve ESPORTS he must be banned from TL and shunned by the community is completely ridiculous.
Why do you follow SC2 if you don't enjoy it? Why do you hate on something nobody forces you to be part in? Really, I do not get it. You want a small community and no major industry? -> Go play BW You experience WoL as stall and hope other people stop enjoying it aswell? ehm...news to you, WoL might not be THE GAME for you. To me you took the title of SC2 to seriously. It is losly based in the same Story setting as SC 1, but might aswell be Starcraft:Ghost, it is a completly different game. You hoped to relive your golden BW memories with SC2? You might aswell try that with Total War: Shogun 2. Complete different game, you might enjoy that, you might not. But If you don't, you won't atleast feel obligated to spread hate in a community you do not have to be part of because the title of the game fooled you.
I think this blog is what's wrong with the community, not the things he's talking about. He's looking for an excuse to act like a a kid on the internet and for it to be acceptable. People in the community need to grow up and not excuse and condone immature behaviour. This whole post came off as a whiny post because people don't find certain things acceptable online. What needs to happen is for people like the op to grow up in life and start acting mature online.
On May 03 2012 08:53 FoeHamr wrote: I think what hes trying to say that if your offended by Destiny because of his language that is perfectly fine and acceptable. If you are offended by Destiny's language because other people might be offended and in order to preserve ESPORTS he must be banned from TL and shunned by the community is completely ridiculous.
Its not ridiculous, its the only way to react to a immature "community person".
I think the main reason I hate the whole "esports" thing though, is because on TL, "esports" has come to mean "SC2", and if you dare talk about any other competitive game, you're shunned to oblivion because SC2 is the almighty game that is the only thing we speak of here and the only true "esport"
On May 03 2012 08:53 FoeHamr wrote: I think what hes trying to say that if your offended by Destiny because of his language that is perfectly fine and acceptable. If you are offended by Destiny's language because other people might be offended and in order to preserve ESPORTS he must be banned from TL and shunned by the community is completely ridiculous.
Its not ridiculous, its the only way to react to a immature "community person".
Except that Destiny has explicitly stated that he never asked to be a community figure. Putting someone on a pedestal and assuming that they will act as some kind of role model because they're really good at video games is completely delusional. Pro gamers are human beings with human flaws and human emotions. The only thing they necessarily have in common is that they're really good at video games.
There's nothing wrong with esports, it's the same old same old thing where humans get competitive over something, like a bunch of guys kicking a ball, shooting a ball through a basket as many times as you can, seeing who runs faster, etc.
On May 03 2012 08:19 -Exalt- wrote: lmao there is such a stark contrast between people in this thread.
you have established gamers like Jinro, EG.lectr who make fun of this whole rant
then, you have the casuals like the OP who enjoy making fun of new bronze players to help mend their egos that have been bruised by the fact they're platinum or something
If you are a casual player who deep inside knows he will never accomplish anything in the game, of course you will say "screw e-sports and those main-stream good players" I just want to play a competitive 1v1 game for "fun" ONLY rawr! *then goes back to watching pro gamers stream for 8 hours*
but otherwise, this blog just embodies a very annoying part of the SC community. they like to generlize EVERYONE as crybabies who cry "killing-esports this" or "hurting sponsors that".. when in reality, that is just the very vocal minority.
anyways, how about you stop condemning the community / forums that you spend so much fucking time paying attention too.. and just go do something else?
In other words you have people who are getting paid by ESPORTS and people who don't give a shit and just want to see good games.
Translation: I miss being part of a niche and insulated community.
Yes, a lot of bad things come along with an expanded community, but there are plenty of good things too. If you overly focus on the bad, they will consume you. I've yet to read a single post in that Destiny thread and have been consistently unfazed by the overly political correct worshipers in the church of esports.
I just watch my favorite players compete in my favorite tournaments, and cheer them on along the way. I play from time to time, but just for fun and usually with friends. Esports is what you make of it, and you seem to be drowning yourself in the things you hate while ignoring the good that is left in the scene, and that's a shame.
On May 03 2012 08:19 -Exalt- wrote: lmao there is such a stark contrast between people in this thread.
you have established gamers like Jinro, EG.lectr who make fun of this whole rant
then, you have the casuals like the OP who enjoy making fun of new bronze players to help mend their egos that have been bruised by the fact they're platinum or something
If you are a casual player who deep inside knows he will never accomplish anything in the game, of course you will say "screw e-sports and those main-stream good players" I just want to play a competitive 1v1 game for "fun" ONLY rawr! *then goes back to watching pro gamers stream for 8 hours*
but otherwise, this blog just embodies a very annoying part of the SC community. they like to generlize EVERYONE as crybabies who cry "killing-esports this" or "hurting sponsors that".. when in reality, that is just the very vocal minority.
anyways, how about you stop condemning the community / forums that you spend so much fucking time paying attention too.. and just go do something else?
In other words you have people who are getting paid by ESPORTS and people who don't give a shit and just want to see good games.
But we are seeing good games.
This blog is a dramatic response, which is highly ironic because OP condemns drama. If anyone is sincere about "just wanting to play'", well big news : you can. Just today, I watched some When Cheese fails videos, and laddered a bit. Nobody stopped me. So what exactly is the problem?
On May 03 2012 08:19 -Exalt- wrote: lmao there is such a stark contrast between people in this thread.
you have established gamers like Jinro, EG.lectr who make fun of this whole rant
then, you have the casuals like the OP who enjoy making fun of new bronze players to help mend their egos that have been bruised by the fact they're platinum or something
If you are a casual player who deep inside knows he will never accomplish anything in the game, of course you will say "screw e-sports and those main-stream good players" I just want to play a competitive 1v1 game for "fun" ONLY rawr! *then goes back to watching pro gamers stream for 8 hours*
but otherwise, this blog just embodies a very annoying part of the SC community. they like to generlize EVERYONE as crybabies who cry "killing-esports this" or "hurting sponsors that".. when in reality, that is just the very vocal minority.
anyways, how about you stop condemning the community / forums that you spend so much fucking time paying attention too.. and just go do something else?
In other words you have people who are getting paid by ESPORTS and people who don't give a shit and just want to see good games.
But we are seeing good games.
This blog is a dramatic response, which is highly ironic because OP condemns drama. If anyone is sincere about "just wanting to play'", well big news : you can. Just today, I watched some When Cheese fails videos, and laddered a bit. Nobody stopped me. So what exactly is the problem?
The blog is complaining about people who care more about stupid meta shit than the game itself. Yes, complaining about meta is still meta, but that's not the point.
On May 03 2012 08:19 -Exalt- wrote: lmao there is such a stark contrast between people in this thread.
you have established gamers like Jinro, EG.lectr who make fun of this whole rant
then, you have the casuals like the OP who enjoy making fun of new bronze players to help mend their egos that have been bruised by the fact they're platinum or something
If you are a casual player who deep inside knows he will never accomplish anything in the game, of course you will say "screw e-sports and those main-stream good players" I just want to play a competitive 1v1 game for "fun" ONLY rawr! *then goes back to watching pro gamers stream for 8 hours*
but otherwise, this blog just embodies a very annoying part of the SC community. they like to generlize EVERYONE as crybabies who cry "killing-esports this" or "hurting sponsors that".. when in reality, that is just the very vocal minority.
anyways, how about you stop condemning the community / forums that you spend so much fucking time paying attention too.. and just go do something else?
In other words you have people who are getting paid by ESPORTS and people who don't give a shit and just want to see good games.
But we are seeing good games.
This blog is a dramatic response, which is highly ironic because OP condemns drama. If anyone is sincere about "just wanting to play'", well big news : you can. Just today, I watched some When Cheese fails videos, and laddered a bit. Nobody stopped me. So what exactly is the problem?
The blog is complaining about people who care more about stupid meta shit than the game itself. Yes, complaining about meta is still meta, but that's not the point.
But what is there to be done about it, hm? Like Snoop always said, if you want to do your thang, then nobody is going to stop you from doing your thang. However, if you tell people how to live their life and start to whine about the behaviour of a whole community, than you're not really doing your thang : you simply want the community to fit your liking.
Great blog. This site's love of BW was what got me so interested in it in the first place, not that I was waiting for SC2 as the next holy grail or eSports or that BW was even an eSport. It's just love of the game.
On May 03 2012 08:19 -Exalt- wrote: lmao there is such a stark contrast between people in this thread.
you have established gamers like Jinro, EG.lectr who make fun of this whole rant
then, you have the casuals like the OP who enjoy making fun of new bronze players to help mend their egos that have been bruised by the fact they're platinum or something
If you are a casual player who deep inside knows he will never accomplish anything in the game, of course you will say "screw e-sports and those main-stream good players" I just want to play a competitive 1v1 game for "fun" ONLY rawr! *then goes back to watching pro gamers stream for 8 hours*
but otherwise, this blog just embodies a very annoying part of the SC community. they like to generlize EVERYONE as crybabies who cry "killing-esports this" or "hurting sponsors that".. when in reality, that is just the very vocal minority.
anyways, how about you stop condemning the community / forums that you spend so much fucking time paying attention too.. and just go do something else?
In other words you have people who are getting paid by ESPORTS and people who don't give a shit and just want to see good games.
But we are seeing good games.
This blog is a dramatic response, which is highly ironic because OP condemns drama. If anyone is sincere about "just wanting to play'", well big news : you can. Just today, I watched some When Cheese fails videos, and laddered a bit. Nobody stopped me. So what exactly is the problem?
The blog is complaining about people who care more about stupid meta shit than the game itself. Yes, complaining about meta is still meta, but that's not the point.
But what is there to be done about it, hm? Like Snoop always said, if you want to do your thang, then nobody is going to stop you from doing your thang. However, if you tell people how to live their life and start to whine about the behaviour of a whole community, than you're not really doing your thang : you simply want the community to fit your liking.
There's nothing wrong with trying to get people to agree with you. Just because you're entitled to your own opinion doesn't mean I don't have the right to try to convince you that your opinion is wrong.
Heres the thing. Heres the reason that i'm OK with people railing on destiny. Heres why we should witch-hunt every person out there over the age of 18 who fucks up. Heres there reason why people deserve to lose their jobs over crap like this.
Because society is better off with less people acting like assholes, and when assholes realize that acting like an asshole has consequences. And the more prominent people that get called out for it, the less likly people are to imitate them and act like assholes. Freedom of speech defense is a bullshit argument because you want to be able to act like an asshole and seem like its OK. ITS NOT OK TO BE AN ASSHOLE.
Noone is forcing you to read threads about it. Noone is forcing you to comment on it. Noone is forcing you to be aware of it. You have the option RIGHT NOW to totally ignore all drama. However, you choose to read the drama and then be mad about it. Dont hold other people responsible for your choices.
Thank you for writing this blog, you said what I always wanted to "put out there" but never got arsed to do it.
I am trying my best to just play and watch interesting (mostly non-featured) streams of people who enjoy the game to the fullest, and tournaments - usually muting the stream in-between games.
I really love and respect TL as website and forum community but sometimes it is really hard to read some posts and topics, mostly because of what you nicely put in your blog entry.
The first is that if the OP were sincere, then it wouldn't have been posted on TL since TL is the community's primary site. You obviously do like that the SC2 community exists or else you wouldn't continue to post your comments here.
The second is that it's either short sighted or immature to wish for people's careers to be ruined etc., just so that you can enjoy your game a little more. No one's stopping you from blocking TL.net, gomtv.net, etc. and just playing the game. You can do that right now and never have to pay attention to another SC2 tournament again.
It's ironic because under the surface, you're the one who's worried about what everyone else thinks and does more than the game itself. The actions of the SC2 community don't affect your enjoyment of the game unless you go out of your way to allow them to.
On May 03 2012 10:52 nastharl wrote: Heres the thing. Heres the reason that i'm OK with people railing on destiny. Heres why we should witch-hunt every person out there over the age of 18 who fucks up. Heres there reason why people deserve to lose their jobs over crap like this.
Because society is better off with less people acting like assholes, and when assholes realize that acting like an asshole has consequences. And the more prominent people that get called out for it, the less likly people are to imitate them and act like assholes. Freedom of speech defense is a bullshit argument because you want to be able to act like an asshole and seem like its OK. ITS NOT OK TO BE AN ASSHOLE.
Noone is forcing you to read threads about it. Noone is forcing you to comment on it. Noone is forcing you to be aware of it. You have the option RIGHT NOW to totally ignore all drama. However, you choose to read the drama and then be mad about it. Dont hold other people responsible for your choices.
Are you honestly arguing that people should lose their jobs for being an asshole? Tell me more about the wonders of draconian punishments. Should we punish minor traffic violations by firing squad?
On May 03 2012 10:52 nastharl wrote: Heres the thing. Heres the reason that i'm OK with people railing on destiny. Heres why we should witch-hunt every person out there over the age of 18 who fucks up. Heres there reason why people deserve to lose their jobs over crap like this.
Because society is better off with less people acting like assholes, and when assholes realize that acting like an asshole has consequences. And the more prominent people that get called out for it, the less likly people are to imitate them and act like assholes. Freedom of speech defense is a bullshit argument because you want to be able to act like an asshole and seem like its OK. ITS NOT OK TO BE AN ASSHOLE.
Noone is forcing you to read threads about it. Noone is forcing you to comment on it. Noone is forcing you to be aware of it. You have the option RIGHT NOW to totally ignore all drama. However, you choose to read the drama and then be mad about it. Dont hold other people responsible for your choices.
So basically when you don't like something it's ok to complain about it, but when someone doesn't like you they should mind their own business.
I been on TL for 7 years now and all I have to say is FUCK YOU.
TL was built by a community looking to build e-sports. From the news reporters, translators, torrent uploaders (ages ago), youtube uploaders, TLPD editors, Liquipedia editors etc... People on TL have spent hundreds of thousands of hours volunteering their time for the love of e-sports.
So for you to shit on all of this, just for trivial issues is really selfish.
Maybe try the LoL and DotA communties, you might fit better there. FUCK OFF FROM TL BECAUSE WE DONT NEED YOU.
On May 03 2012 10:52 nastharl wrote: Heres the thing. Heres the reason that i'm OK with people railing on destiny. Heres why we should witch-hunt every person out there over the age of 18 who fucks up. Heres there reason why people deserve to lose their jobs over crap like this.
Because society is better off with less people acting like assholes, and when assholes realize that acting like an asshole has consequences. And the more prominent people that get called out for it, the less likly people are to imitate them and act like assholes. Freedom of speech defense is a bullshit argument because you want to be able to act like an asshole and seem like its OK. ITS NOT OK TO BE AN ASSHOLE.
Noone is forcing you to read threads about it. Noone is forcing you to comment on it. Noone is forcing you to be aware of it. You have the option RIGHT NOW to totally ignore all drama. However, you choose to read the drama and then be mad about it. Dont hold other people responsible for your choices.
Are you honestly arguing that people should lose their jobs for being an asshole? Tell me more about the wonders of draconian punishments. Should we punish minor traffic violations by firing squad?
When in the course of your job you have the ability to affect the actions of thousands of people. YES YOU SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO BE AN ASSHOLE.
Draconian punishment works quite well when the thing being punished is unjust. Its impossible to write laws with morality built in though, so we cannot make laws that allow draconian punishment. This situation however doesn't require laws. We have a benevolent dicatorship which can and will use its power to prevent people from doing stupid bullshit.
On May 03 2012 10:52 nastharl wrote: Heres the thing. Heres the reason that i'm OK with people railing on destiny. Heres why we should witch-hunt every person out there over the age of 18 who fucks up. Heres there reason why people deserve to lose their jobs over crap like this.
Because society is better off with less people acting like assholes, and when assholes realize that acting like an asshole has consequences. And the more prominent people that get called out for it, the less likly people are to imitate them and act like assholes. Freedom of speech defense is a bullshit argument because you want to be able to act like an asshole and seem like its OK. ITS NOT OK TO BE AN ASSHOLE.
Noone is forcing you to read threads about it. Noone is forcing you to comment on it. Noone is forcing you to be aware of it. You have the option RIGHT NOW to totally ignore all drama. However, you choose to read the drama and then be mad about it. Dont hold other people responsible for your choices.
So basically when you don't like something it's ok to complain about it, but when someone doesn't like you they should mind their own business.
When the "thing i dont like" is "Acting like an asshole to piss off other people" then yes i get to complain, and when someone doesn't like me, they should indeed, shut up and walk away, unless i'm activly doing something to piss them off.
Live and let live. You dont get to choose who you live in the world with, but you do get to choose how you interact with them.
We're not talking about defending someones right to speak out against the majority, we're defending someones right to be a total asshat. If there was a way to ensure freedom of speech unless you're being an asshat we'd have done that, but there isn't.
Thank you for transcribing what has been floating around in my head into words so eloquently. This blog sums up my ideas very closely. There is nothing in this community I hate more than when someone gets on their white horse and crusade for some kind of e-sports utopia. I wish people would just chill out sometimes and enjoy the game for what it is, rather than what it could be.
Though I don't go so far as you, in hoping SC2 burns to the ground. I want competitive gaming to thrive and succeed, but I want it to succeed how it is now, rather than as some kind of desensitized, polite, white washed version of itself.
I love SC2 and I will always love it and if it goes to be something bigger then it is then thats awesome. If it doesn't then I still have the game that I love, Just have less to watch.
It would suck if there weren't any more tournaments or anything. I think the best thing that could happen is if all the major teams and all the major companies that sponsor SC2 and all these competitive games would ONLY listen to the public about GAME related issues. The companies and teams should just ignore EVERYTHING they hear from the community about specific players and other shit like that. I think the majority of the "esports" scene is retarded. And the other half that isn't needs to start speaking up more often.
Basically all you said was you think people are focusing too much on promoting esports and have lost sight of what brought them to the scene in the first place, which is having fun playing a video game. The bottom line is people do what they want to do and the reason there is so much stuff going around about promoting esports is because promoting esports is what people WANT to do. Why do they want to do it? Because it leads to more FUN, which it seems is what you value the most, having fun. Promoting esports leads to more tournaments, streams, and games to watch, which you yourself said is something enjoyable. I don't understand what your problem is with it. You don't like people telling you what to do? You don't want to be accused of hurting esports if you don't do something the right way? You don't have to dedicate your whole life to promoting esports in order to prevent someone from scolding you. In fact, all you of to do is just sit there and do nothing and no one is gonna say a word to you about it. I basically just think you're overreacting to all this. You hope Starcraft dies? Really? So you hope that all the streams and tournaments you watch and enjoy disappears? You hope the game you love and have fun playing dies off just like it's an average console game? This makes no sense to me at all. You say that everyone is "slaves beholden to the whims of a small minority of zealots who seek to proselytize SC2 like it's the second coming of chess," but the bottom line is that people promote esports because they want to, not because they are being forced to. People want to see Starcraft 2 grow and if you for some reason don't agree with that, then too bad because you are in the minority.
On May 03 2012 10:52 nastharl wrote: Heres the thing. Heres the reason that i'm OK with people railing on destiny. Heres why we should witch-hunt every person out there over the age of 18 who fucks up. Heres there reason why people deserve to lose their jobs over crap like this.
Because society is better off with less people acting like assholes, and when assholes realize that acting like an asshole has consequences. And the more prominent people that get called out for it, the less likly people are to imitate them and act like assholes. Freedom of speech defense is a bullshit argument because you want to be able to act like an asshole and seem like its OK. ITS NOT OK TO BE AN ASSHOLE.
Noone is forcing you to read threads about it. Noone is forcing you to comment on it. Noone is forcing you to be aware of it. You have the option RIGHT NOW to totally ignore all drama. However, you choose to read the drama and then be mad about it. Dont hold other people responsible for your choices.
Not sure if you have just written perfect satire or not. Either way, being an asshole is subjective, and requires context in all situations.
To me sc2 feels smth like Justin Beiber. He is not a bad singer, and sc2 is not a bad game either (both average). But some folks are trying to push it as an esports, same as pushing Bieber as a super star. Worst of all, people are buying it.
On May 02 2012 20:35 Tobberoth wrote: People who say "I remember when games were X" etc just sound like idiots. People would have killed to have a professional scene like SC2 has now when CS came out, same when Quake was big. Stop living in your dreamworld nostalgia, the gaming world hasn't turned to shit, you just happened to grow up. It's especially ridiculous when people say "games used to be all about fun, which is ruined now" when it relies 100% on the player. A bunch of 11 year old kids playing around with SC2 like we did with BW are having the same experience, they don't give a shit about whether or not Destiny uses bad words on stream.
This summed up my thoughts perfectly... Talk about rose-coloured glasses...
And for the record, I'm now 28 and one of those people who has been here from the start. You're (Gheed) misrepresenting what this community was about in the beginning, bud.
I have not really noticed it. I don't read into many blogs. For example I have only read the first 2 pages of this one before replying. I haven't seen anyone being obnoxious about the eSports movement really, because I mute all streams because I hate most casters.
I like playing this game, I like watching it, if the other people who like playing and watching it want it to be an esport, let them at it. I like video games.
Well, I love ESports - which for me is about being a spectator witnessing a battle of highly skilled gamers.
I'm 40. No where near quick witted enough, or devoted enough, to excel and play a game at a hugely competitive level. When I play games (every single day), I play for the fun of the game, mental stimulation and a chilled pleasure. I enjoy a little low level competitive play - mixes in Counter Strike, Laddering on Sc2, Teaming up with mates for LoL or Dota2, and far too many hours of fun filled TF2 with my community friends.
I enjoyed your post as it was well written and makes a point. However, I have no difficulty with the idea that some play games to a far more skilled level than I do - and I enjoy watching them do so a great deal. Far more than I ever enjoyed Track or Field based sports. If it takes commercialisation to ensure that I can continue to watch high level players - who can afford to live off their gaming skills due to a growth in advertisement and professionalism, then so be it. Damn, if I could make a modest living of doing anything gaming related, I'd jump at the chance.
I fail to see how it's too hard to separate the two. I do hate witch hunts though. If someone wants to behave in a way that bothers me, it's pretty simple to ignore him/her and leave them to it. If ignorance is their issue - however it manifests itself, then I'm pretty sure they'll either learn from mistakes and profit, or fail to learn from mistakes and, well, make more mistakes. Who are we (the gaming public) to lecture and teach, without invitation.
And yes. I may have misunderstood your point. I have a tendancy to be a bit slow when doing anything other than gaming
E-sports is new. How it is right now, ya, defintely boring, but my other favorite sports have gotten boring to watch as well as I age, so I don't know.
I will say this: At least with Something Awful, the price of admission helps weed out a portion of the bad. TL, Solomid, and other Esports communities really don't.
Have you ever learned about nationalism? It's basically using a state as a religion. Patriotism=american nationalism= yell "for freedom" and kill terrorists.
Have you ever learned about more modern nationalism? It's basically picking a group on the internet and using it as your religion. eSports=Starcraft Nationalism=yell "for eSports" and kick orb out of his job for no reason.
The world is a stupid place. I agree. I just like to think that the majority of people on this website are smart. Look at the staff of teamliquid. When TL is too busy to load and it says "Someone is killing ESPORTS" I laugh a little to myself. Because ESPORTS is the word used because we got tired of saying we need to grow professional starcraft. It shouldn't be some religion, and it shouldn't be used to justify stupidity.
This leads me to my last point. MLG's PPV. I actually find it worth it to watch, with the games and storylines being satisfying for me. I couldn't understand this guy who just posted "I will never pay money for starcraft, I will only watch it for free". But seeing you write this shows me the true value the BW community has, that I have as well, even though I'm a starcraft 2 fan. We want to see good games for our own entertainment as a hobby, and they are good games because they are good and they are entertaining because they are. We don't need to debate if it is entertaining, or fun, or if we should swear about it. Just exist.
There's tradeoffs to progress, and the growth of esports is certainly no exception. You shine a light on some of the values we have lost along the way, a subject that does not get enough of the attention it deserves!
I tried wording something with thought and reasoning, but other people have done that for me.
I don't agree with you, and I think you are exaggerating your opinion. I know what your idea of the post was, but ranting like this is never the best way to go around.
Hope you will continue making bronze thingies, they were fun.
When I stay up late at night cheering for my favourite player I am not forced to do so, and the emotions are not fabricated. I play Starcraft 2 for its competitive nature even though I'm quite awful at it, I keep on playing becaues it's a fun game. I can't in any way, shape or form relate to your post threadstarter, and I hope I never will.
sorry, but i just dont agree with the general sentiment. i love starcraft, have since the 90s. i watch because its exciting and i love the game. i play (less than i watch!) because its exciting and i love the game. if theres an aspect of it i dont like (mlg arena cashgrabs being one) i just ignore them.
if you've lost your love or cant ignore the parts you hate (there will ALWAYS be parts you hate), just move on.
Sorry ur mad that all the exposure doomed you to being nothing more than an average competitive SC player. I wish there was something I coupd do for your ego, but we simply can't all be in Grandmaster league, and that leaves a lot of people bitter.
Community forum does that to people. While I disagree with the general tone of your post and I hope that ESPORTS will become greater, I can definitely understand why you wrote it. I have the same reaction when I get to read Football results and stupidly begin to read comments on those results. This is the sad yet obligatory part of a growing "hobby", and I understand it can crush your joy for it, so much that you hope for it to disappear.
I agree with you, I agree with you so fucking hard my agreement erection could destroy cities and topple empires.
However, I wouldnt blame starcraft, I wouldnt blame the game we all mostly love.
Theres still fun in Starcraft II, you just have to sift past the bullshit. I call people whatever I want on ladder when i'm mad, I go mass thor in 3v3, I'll laugh so hard on skype with friends when we play and do stupid shit like attacking ourselfs in team games (we once did 4v4 full worker rush and I was all like fucking supreme commander all over that shit, you have no idea how fun that was, "THIS MOTHERFUCKER HAS A MARINE OUT SHIT SHIT SHIT"). I'll go Bio in TvT because its funner than waiting 20 minutes moving up 1 tank at a time, I'll go sky terran in TvP because its fucking cool. I'll rush battlecruisers on 1 base because 11/11 bunker harass is just too much hassle.
And you know what, tournaments are cool as well, I do enjoy watching good play, I'll never tire of Wheat/Day9 casting an MLG final. I enjoy listening to destiny play and rage, let him call people whatever he wants to call them, I dont give a shit what you have to say, I'm not interested in youre 150 page threadnoughts and youre pathetic arguments, but I know I have a good time when I watch Destiny and thats enough for me.
I've never bought "nerd swag", I've only gone to thehandsomenerd to crash it, and I've never bough any kind of sub/HD pass in my life.
Why?
Because fuck you and fuck youre esports thats why, I dont give a shit, I play this game to have fun. If it all becomes PPV or sub based? Fuck it, I wont watch tournaments. I'll do something else, my life doesnt revolve around Starcraft II or esports so dont make me sacrifice my SCII fun for youre bullshit. If I want to call someone a faggot on ladder, youre damn right I'm gonna do it, because if that guys beng a faggot he needs to be told, and thats how it should be.
I guess my point is, Starcraft II is still fun, I enjoy it, I still strive to become better but never by sacrificing fun, if I'm forced to sacrifice fun for the esports altar, then fuck that shit, I'll play some World of Tanks Or Eve Online.
Eve Online, theres a game where the community arnt fucking faggots all the time.
On May 03 2012 17:15 Bap181 wrote: Fuck it, I wont watch tournaments. I'll do something else, my life doesnt revolve around Starcraft II or esports so dont make me sacrifice my SCII fun for youre bullshit. If I want to call someone a faggot on ladder, youre damn right I'm gonna do it, because if that guys beng a faggot he needs to be told, and thats how it should be.
I think this epitomises the lunacy in this thread. Such absurd vitriol.
I am devoted to the cause of e-sports, and to see the competition aspect of it elevated to the level that it is and to see people gain fame and fortune by being good at a game with as much credibility as any other in the world if not more is what I am all about.
To me it's all about fairness.
I've grown up my entire life with video games being my hobby of choice and being shunned by society for it. That has NEVER dampened my dedication to it. But to finally see an opportunity for me to no longer have to hide what I am doing and to be proud of it and to pursue a potential career in supporting that to me is exciting!
Why should activities I couldn't care less about be put on television and make people excited and yet the game I'm playing that is exciting, in depth and competitive be something that is played behind closed doors and only for fun?
Here's the problem I think you have Gheed. You are feeling insecure about your own hobby becoming something that is more than just something you play for fun. Guess what? No one is FORCING you to play Starcraft for a reason other than having fun.
I play basketball on weekends with my friends for fun, I play chess for fun, I play poker to win some side cash but mostly to have fun.
Just because there is a huge professional league for each of those activities doesn't mean that I can't still play those games for fun and nothing else. E-sports is no different. The advocates are not FORCING you to be as enthusiastic about it as we are, and we are not forcing you to stop playing starcraft for fun.
All we're doing is promoting the competitive side of video games to make them as legitimate of a competition as poker, as golf and as athletic sports in general. It's a matter of fairness, if you don't care then don't care. But don't act like we're hurting your life in some way with blogs like this.
+1 I wouldn't say I hate e-sports, but I really feel you gheed. I can say I have enjoyed the game alot more when I DONT read posts from pro fanboys or how we need to "support e-sports". I was just here to get builds and thoughts on banshee timings against various races and saw your blog and I couldnt help myself. Now its time for me to leave before I get sucked back into the World of Bullshit that is called "e-sports".
This blog goes out to all the hipsters out there who are too underground for ESPORTS.
If all this esports shit is making you mad I have a solution for you don't; go to TL anymore, just play Starcraft or whatever game you want to play. I guess writing edgy blogs is just too good to pass up now that you can get featured for it.
On May 03 2012 17:39 Snorkle wrote: This blog goes out to all the hipsters out there who are too underground for ESPORTS.
If all this esports shit is making you mad I have a solution for you don't; go to TL anymore, just play Starcraft or whatever game you want to play. I guess writing edgy blogs is just too good to pass up now that you can get featured for it.
I was going to actually use the word "hipster" in my post but I decided against it but it definitely does feel that way.
I really don't understand these people who resist anything that starts to gain popularity as if its somehow losing its integrity. I really don't understand that mentality at all.
If you love doing something, share it. Don't keep it to yourself, and don't whine and complain when other people want to share it or promote it.
On May 03 2012 17:37 koldkilla205 wrote: +1 I wouldn't say I hate e-sports, but I really feel you gheed. I can say I have enjoyed the game alot more when I DONT read posts from pro fanboys or how we need to "support e-sports". I was just here to get builds and thoughts on banshee timings against various races and saw your blog and I couldnt help myself. Now its time for me to leave before I get sucked back into the World of Bullshit that is called "e-sports".
There's a simple solution to this problem of yours, stick to the "strategy" forum.
i do not see any problem with esport. soccer, basketball, baseball, chess and so on are sports, too, but we can still have our fun playing it @ noob level.
so where is your damn problem? you do not HAVE to care about esport, just hf playing the game, and _stop taking this thing too serious_.
On May 03 2012 17:39 Snorkle wrote: This blog goes out to all the hipsters out there who are too underground for ESPORTS.
If all this esports shit is making you mad I have a solution for you don't; go to TL anymore, just play Starcraft or whatever game you want to play. I guess writing edgy blogs is just too good to pass up now that you can get featured for it.
I was going to actually use the word "hipster" in my post but I decided against it but it definitely does feel that way.
I really don't understand these people who resist anything that starts to gain popularity as if its somehow losing its integrity. I really don't understand that mentality at all.
If you love doing something, share it. Don't keep it to yourself, and don't whine and complain when other people want to share it or promote it.
LOL because the way it's being grown intrinsically devalues a unique, community driven industry which we had come to love and be a part of. Not because it's getting popular. FYI, have you ever heard of StarCraft BroodWar? You've got some serious guts coming and telling us that it isn't popular. Even now, its problems don't stem from lack of popularity. The scene was something genuinely special and unique which is now being aggressively invaded, marketed to hell and changed beyond recognition. There's also a very good chance that it can now never change back, to something which was huge, and popular, but built on a very different basis from the corporate cash-in quickfixes we see rife in "esports" now.
And you lot come in and tell us to GTFO, or deal with it? It's ridiculous, because you don't know half the story.
On May 03 2012 17:39 Snorkle wrote: This blog goes out to all the hipsters out there who are too underground for ESPORTS.
If all this esports shit is making you mad I have a solution for you don't; go to TL anymore, just play Starcraft or whatever game you want to play. I guess writing edgy blogs is just too good to pass up now that you can get featured for it.
I was going to actually use the word "hipster" in my post but I decided against it but it definitely does feel that way.
I really don't understand these people who resist anything that starts to gain popularity as if its somehow losing its integrity. I really don't understand that mentality at all.
If you love doing something, share it. Don't keep it to yourself, and don't whine and complain when other people want to share it or promote it.
LOL because the way it's being grown intrinsically devalues a unique, community driven industry which we had come to love and be a part of. Not because it's getting popular. FYI, have you ever heard of StarCraft BroodWar? You've got some serious guts coming and telling us that it isn't popular. Even now, its problems don't stem from lack of popularity. The scene was something genuinely special and unique which is now being aggressively invaded, marketed to hell and changed beyond recognition. There's also a very good chance that it can now never change back, to something which was huge, and popular, but built on a very different basis from the corporate cash-in quickfixes we see rife in "esports" now.
And you lot come in and tell us to GTFO, or deal with it? It's ridiculous, because you don't know half the story.
I bought Starcraft in 1998. and Brood war as soon as it came out. I remember watching the trailer for Brood War when it was first released and getting incredibly hyped up over it.
I'm well aware of the scene that developed later but it was still no more than an underground movement outside of Korea. INSIDE of Korea it was just as marketable as SC2 is in the West.
You were in love with a scene that almost didn't exist outside of Korea and now that Western e-sports is catching up to what Korea HAS been, it's making you angry.
Also, in what part of my post did I start bashing the BW community? I love the BW community. I don't enjoy this disdain they have for SC2 but I love their community.
Your being so hyper defensive is your problem, don't start assuming I'm bashing something that i'm not.
The scene was something genuinely special and unique which is now being aggressively invaded, marketed to hell and changed beyond recognition.
dafuq i just read?
there are hundreds of sc2 fun events where nobody cares about money or viewer numbers, and mlg/kespa/greetech can´t change that. so what is the problem? okay, some guys just want to be like a unique snowflake, but i think this is silly.
On May 03 2012 17:39 Snorkle wrote: This blog goes out to all the hipsters out there who are too underground for ESPORTS.
If all this esports shit is making you mad I have a solution for you don't; go to TL anymore, just play Starcraft or whatever game you want to play. I guess writing edgy blogs is just too good to pass up now that you can get featured for it.
I was going to actually use the word "hipster" in my post but I decided against it but it definitely does feel that way.
I really don't understand these people who resist anything that starts to gain popularity as if its somehow losing its integrity. I really don't understand that mentality at all.
If you love doing something, share it. Don't keep it to yourself, and don't whine and complain when other people want to share it or promote it.
LOL because the way it's being grown intrinsically devalues a unique, community driven industry which we had come to love and be a part of. Not because it's getting popular. FYI, have you ever heard of StarCraft BroodWar? You've got some serious guts coming and telling us that it isn't popular. Even now, its problems don't stem from lack of popularity. The scene was something genuinely special and unique which is now being aggressively invaded, marketed to hell and changed beyond recognition. There's also a very good chance that it can now never change back, to something which was huge, and popular, but built on a very different basis from the corporate cash-in quickfixes we see rife in "esports" now.
And you lot come in and tell us to GTFO, or deal with it? It's ridiculous, because you don't know half the story.
I bought Starcraft in 1998. and Brood war as soon as it came out. I remember watching the trailer for Brood War when it was first released and getting incredibly hyped up over it.
I'm well aware of the scene that developed later but it was still no more than an underground movement outside of Korea. INSIDE of Korea it was just as marketable as SC2 is in the West.
You were in love with a scene that almost didn't exist outside of Korea and now that Western e-sports is catching up to what Korea HAS been, it's making you angry.
Also, in what part of my post did I start bashing the BW community? I love the BW community. I don't enjoy this disdain they have for SC2 but I love their community.
Your being so hyper defensive is your problem, don't start assuming I'm bashing something that i'm not.
Catching up? The Western scene is going in a different direction than that of Korea. Disdain? It goes both ways my man.
I would love to hear your thoughts on other titles that aren't SC2. This whole notion doesn't hold true for the vast majority.
You can call people out for being defensive all you want, but at the end of the day a lot of the guys who I see cheering on SC2 show just as much disdain for games that aren't their game.
Do see where I'm going with this?
There is a parallel here between games and sports.
A cricket player isn't necessarily going to like baseball.
Just like rugby players won't necessarily like American football.
There is nothing hipster about this mentality at all. It's simple logic.
On May 02 2012 15:06 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote: Agreed completely, fuck Esports.
Remember when we were all amused when SKT made an English website with the word 'Esportainment' because noone took Esports seriously. If only we knew then how the term would get hijacked.
The sad thing is I doubt most people today on these boards know what SKT is.
Why is this sad?lol Is it really upsetting that people didn't play BW. Should we learn the history of starcraft before we play it?
If you're interested in something usually you do your homework before spouting out bullshit and ignorant posts. Unfortunately there are a lot of those people who try to chime in when they know absolute shit.
On May 02 2012 15:06 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote: Agreed completely, fuck Esports.
Remember when we were all amused when SKT made an English website with the word 'Esportainment' because noone took Esports seriously. If only we knew then how the term would get hijacked.
The sad thing is I doubt most people today on these boards know what SKT is.
Why is this sad?lol Is it really upsetting that people didn't play BW. Should we learn the history of starcraft before we play it?
Just like every other thread, this is degenerating into a SC2 vs BW argument. Like it or not, computer games have a limited lifespan. Just as how BW is fading into oblivion, SC2 will eventually fall to the same fate. Move along guys...
Gheed, then don't support ESports. Just go hide in your home, ignore the rest of the community, play your games and be happy. No wait, maybe you are right. Maybe it's all for naught. We should just ignore a lot of good peoples hard work to get gamers some real money for putting in some extra effort into something they love. We should just tear down the framework that thousands of passionate people have worked tirelessly to build and are continuing to support. We should just piss in the face of business who are actually showing an interest in supporting games. And people who believe that other people should act with respect and integrity towards others, even in a gaming setting, should just go to hell. Fuck them all.
Fuck you, Gheed. I wouldn't be so mad at your blog if it wasn't so arrogant. Yes, there are shit heads out there that take things too seriously and toss up shit storms about non-issues just to get a reaction, but you know what, that's just what you're doing too. Way to be the bigger person. You're like a little child who stomps his feet and throws a tantrum when something changes that they don't like. I'm sorry things are not going the way you want, but that doesn't mean they're bad. I'm sorry you fear change and I pity you. Get over it.
Yeah, people will hate me for posting this, but I just I had to just get that off my chest. I guess I'm just like you Gheed.
I'm sure that was cathartic for you. Its pretty easy and meaningless to hate on buzzwords.
Guess what? I'm betting that those sponsers are maybe, juuust maybe, targeting my demographic: 20 somethings with a passion for gaming and large disposable incomes.
I hope starcraft 2 grows but for only 2 reasons: - there are many potential fans who could become actual fans that I would enjoy chatting about matches and players I care about - the larger the community -> the larger the prize pools -> the more talent can be drawn in and cultivated efficiently -> I get to see the game played at a higher level than if just few thousand nerds really cared about and supported the handful of talent that the game drew in organically.
Wait... I was warned for my response to a blog that was posted with the same spite, whining, and derogatory terms as the blog itself and yet the blog poster wasn't warned.
On May 04 2012 00:12 Clandrone wrote: Wait... I was warned for my response to a blog that was posted with the same spite, whining, and derogatory terms as the blog itself and yet the blog poster wasn't warned.
On May 04 2012 00:12 Clandrone wrote: Wait... I was warned for my response to a blog that was posted with the same spite, whining, and derogatory terms as the blog itself and yet the blog poster wasn't warned.
I agree with much of what you say Gheed, but I'm more indifferent towards it I think. The best pro players (overwhelmingly teenagers or early 20s) earn salaries from teams, get flown all over the world to play in tournaments, compete for huge cash prizes, and earn plenty of dough sitting at home streaming. Casters are paid well. They get massive live crowds at ESLs, GSLs, MLGs, and plenty of online viewers, some even pay for premium HD streams and organize bar crafts. I think they've made it.
How much bigger does this thing need to get for these eSports people to be happy? How much bigger can it get? I'm wondering both in terms of the tip top salaries, and the number of people earning a living strictly from it.
Right now (11:30 AM EST on a thursday) I could join ~13,000 people watch Polt, Stephano, Nerchio, Grubby or BratOK sit at home and rock a video game, while they are paid for it.
For me, most of the people that are out there struggling and urging us to "support eSports" (speaking purely of SC2) are the same type of people that just aren't good enough to earn a living at being a pro golfer, poker player, other sort of athlete and are looking for a handout. Clearly the opportunity is there where the talent exists!
On May 02 2012 10:20 Gheed wrote: We wouldn't have to worry about what other people thought of us. We would just enjoy ourselves. We could have a few tournaments, but nothing too serious. Maybe some Koreans would start playing our game, and we could watch them on a stream. It might not be in English, but everything sounds better with Korean commentary, anyway. And then when someone sees the Korean scene, gets wide-eyed and has some stupid pipe dream about western players being as good as the Koreans, or having a gaming scene as developed as theirs, we could promptly tell them to shut the fuck up, never speak of it again, and continue with our fun.
So basically this rant comes down to... I liked it how it was.. I'm not good enough to compete with the best, so no one else should either? Nothing is stopping you having "fun" with the game. You worker rush Bronzies with your 1337 haxor skillz.. maybe I don't think that's fun. Can you stop it please? Your not making this game fun for me, even though it has nothing to do with me. So I think you should stop.
A++++++++ blog, can't wait to read all the mad from the SRS BIZNIZ people.
The politically correctness patrol is getting out of hand. I remember my first foray into SC2 was nametrolling Artosis during GSL season 2, and everyone could get in on the fun. Now people are kneejerk calling up sponsors and putting entire teams in jeopardy, which is ironically killing esports. LOOK HOW FAR WE HAVE FALLEN.
On May 04 2012 00:12 Clandrone wrote: Wait... I was warned for my response to a blog that was posted with the same spite, whining, and derogatory terms as the blog itself and yet the blog poster wasn't warned.
Can we get a little consistency please.
The warning you received...
While different opinions are welcome, please try to keep debate civil. Flaming is unacceptable on these forums, and ad hominem attacks are not appreciated.
...was in response to the following part of your post:
Fuck you, Gheed. I wouldn't be so mad at your blog if it wasn't so arrogant. Yes, there are shit heads out there that take things too seriously and toss up shit storms about non-issues just to get a reaction, but you know what, that's just what you're doing too. Way to be the bigger person. You're like a little child who stomps his feet and throws a tantrum when something changes that they don't like. I'm sorry things are not going the way you want, but that doesn't mean they're bad. I'm sorry you fear change and I pity you. Get over it.
if you don't like it, just quit sc2 lol. what is there to be so upset to wirte a blog about it? i love esports^.^ i don't see how it would decrease your fun @ the game^^ i'm assuming you're not a gm or high masters/whatever, so how does the whole esport thing even affect you? don't watch gsl,ip,mlg if you don't like it, as simple as that^^ quit whining tho, there are so many people enjoying esports and want it to grow, why would you wish for them to loose all their hopes and dreams for the scene?Wanting to ruin the fun for millions of people when the solution is so easy (quitting yourself) ? I don't see why this blog would get so many upvotes
Personally, I also found out that all that e-sport stuff is starting to bore me. I still watch the premier tournaments, but I don't give a shit, who won the "random invitational showmatch masters whatever cup #2492". I think that there's put too much emphasis on the sheer quantity of events, when there actually should be less, but better events. (like DH or MLG, which were really worth every minute)
Basically, we need a regular tournament circuit, like there's in tennis or snooker - nobody with a regular dayjob can actually follow all the leagues. I love Starcraft, and I certainly will do so for quite some time, but the magic of the BW days is kinda gone for me. Events don't feel important or special anymore, because there are so many of them. But maybe "the great unification" will take place once.
On May 03 2012 04:38 SpearWrit wrote: The amount of butthurt and misunderstanding in this thread is staggering. Alot of people do not understand that Gheed likes competitive gaming, the tournaments, the fun, the passion, the concept that gamers can make money from winning. Gheed dislikes "E-Sports"- the drama, the bullshit, the taking everything way too seriously, the taking of oneself way too seriously.
But I suspect that even this blatant explanation will go over many peoples' heads.
I'm just gonna go ahead and quote this every few pages.
Great job Gheed I agree with most of it, though I'd rather it not totally die, since it is a small and still lucrative business, and fun to watch. However i believe that as a group, in our small microcosm of a site, we have blown this game up to be something its not, and when we return to the real world, we realize that we can't share our nerdom of some amazing drop with your average bro. When i saw that Squirtle had 3-0'd FXOz, I was like YES MY FAV PLAYER JUST 3-0'd the dude, but nobody else understood why i had butterflies about him making it to the final 4 of the GSL. Its a great place to share our love, but pushing SC2 to be something it is not is imprudent.
I've said it before: the moment Blizzard designed Starcraft 2 as an "esport" is the moment they stopped designing a game. The balance in Brood War came about naturally, with players figuring out builds and strategies to counter their opponents. In Starcraft 2's development they basically handed you the marauder, colossus, and roach, then said: "Here, these units counter pretty much everything, including each other."
The growth of this game has thus far been unnatural and forced. When every unit has a very specific role and can't conceivably excel in ANYTHING else is when the game loses its creativity.
"Here's a corrupter. It kills Carriers." "Here's a reaper. It harasses stuff." "Here's a stalker. It kills roaches." "Here's a marauder. It kills stalkers."
Maps need to be twice as large as they are, and units need to actually control the map, IE with spider mines, tank lines, lurkers, arbiters, you name it.
ESPORTS as we know it is just another example of forced growth. No longer are people just playing and enjoying a game. Now it's a sport to study. Which is fine! But there's no need to treat it like the new fucking testament UNLESS YOU YOURSELF ARE A PROFESSIONAL.
I literally cannot enjoy this game anymore. It's impossible for me to just sit down and play and have fun. I've always raged a bit in games, but never like this. It's gotten stale. Watching the same builds in the same matchups has gotten old for me, especially since it ends up being a ball of units thrown at another ball of units, regardless of positioning or map presence.
I'm not sure what point I'm trying to make, except maybe that the way SC2 is designed will prohibit long term interest. ESPORTS evangelicals are already force feeding me a billion tournaments (please can we have "seasons" please please??), and that in itself has made me bored, complacent, and apathetic.
On May 02 2012 10:20 Gheed wrote: I love competitive gaming... But I hate esports.
Care to outline the difference between the two? The way you wrote your blog was so contradictory to "I love competitive gaming" because you blended these two together.
On May 02 2012 10:20 Gheed wrote: The idea of fun doesn't even cross anyone's mind.
Because you don't have fun, no one else does or is allowed to? Stop being such a downer.
On May 02 2012 10:20 Gheed wrote:
Well I, for one, can't fucking stand it anymore. I don't care about Esports. In fact, I hope SC2 dies a swift death. I hope HotS gets delayed another year so WoL gets even more stale and even more players become disinterested. I hope we never get LAN. I hope all the sponsors pull out when they realize that marketing $200 dollar video cards to 16 year-olds too cheap to even pay for GomTV subscriptions is actually not a very good business plan. I hope Blizzard realizes they could make more money reskinning a WoW mount and selling it for 20 bucks in the virtual store than they could by making an RTS game and shunts all the funds away from SC2 and into the research and development of more sparkle ponies.
"I hate the direction SC2 is going, and everyone else should too. Because I can't have fun, no one else can either! I hope, because this game and community has failed to entertain me, that Blizzard and their franchise will die out in the end!!"
I don't get why someone whining about how bored they are about SC2 can get so much publicity on TL. Guess featured blogs just inspire people that way. 0/5
"While different opinions are welcome, please try to keep debate civil. Flaming is unacceptable on these forums, and ad hominem attacks are not appreciated."
Please tell that to Gheed, Empyrean, his entire blog is flaming those who put their blood, sweat, tears, time, and money into the esports scene. Warn him to show a little respect please. All I ask is equality.
On May 04 2012 05:19 Clandrone wrote: "While different opinions are welcome, please try to keep debate civil. Flaming is unacceptable on these forums, and ad hominem attacks are not appreciated."
Please tell that to Gheed, Empyrean, his entire blog is flaming those who put their blood, sweat, tears, time, and money into the esports scene. Warn him to show a little respect please. All I ask is equality.
This is the quintissential ESPORTS evangelical.
Here's a thought: Starcraft 2 is just a game.
Think about that for a moment, what that sentence means.
Just a game.
It's not a movement. It's not even a "scene." It's a video game that you play or watch primarily for fun.
I can't even fathom any other reason to play a game, or have interest in it in the first place. The whole thing just blows my mind.
I need to get off TeamLiquid for a while. Can a mod ban me for two weeks? (I actually need to focus on other things right now, and the above post is just one example why, besides being busy.) God bless everyone, have fun gl gg.
On May 04 2012 05:19 Clandrone wrote: "While different opinions are welcome, please try to keep debate civil. Flaming is unacceptable on these forums, and ad hominem attacks are not appreciated."
Please tell that to Gheed, Empyrean, his entire blog is flaming those who put their blood, sweat, tears, time, and money into the esports scene. Warn him to show a little respect please. All I ask is equality.
This is the quintissential ESPORTS evangelical.
Here's a thought: Starcraft 2 is just a game.
Think about that for a moment, what that sentence means.
Just a game.
It's not a movement. It's not even a "scene." It's a video game that you play or watch primarily for fun.
I can't even fathom any other reason to play a game, or have interest in it in the first place. The whole thing just blows my mind.
I need to get off TeamLiquid for a while. Can a mod ban me for two weeks? (I actually need to focus on other things right now, and the above post is just one example why, besides being busy.) God bless everyone, have fun gl gg.
exactly this is the point, why gheeds OP is so absurd. why do you even CARE about the "esport movement", if sc2 is "just a game" for you?
So nice to read that I'm not the only person who can't stand this phrase. I feel like I'd be banned for saying this anywhere outside of this thread on TL...
Has it occurred to the OP that maybe people actually have more fun watching professional casters and events? I don't see why people who like watching manchildren throw around racial slurs like candy have the monopoly on fun. I have more fun watching standard mainstream sport's coverage than say Destiny's stream. I agree that its wrong to ask other people to stop watching Destiny just so the thing that I like can be bigger, but it's equally as wrong to ask people to stop liking big prize pools and casters in suits because that's getting in the way of people being able to say "nigger" 3 times a sentence. I'm getting sort of tired of all the "esports" anti-fans pretending like anyone who prefers professional casting is somehow intentionally sacrificing their own fun. No, we just legitimately like it better. There's a fine line at getting annoyed when someone tells you to stop liking the thing you like "for the greater good" (which does happen, granted) and getting annoyed when someone merely prefers a different style of presentation than you.
I don't know why You hated that destiny post so much. He was acting like a dickhead and deserved to be called out for it. You can claim a lot of people are too sensitive, and while that may be true, I think it's great that people are trying to stop that kind of behavior, because it's unacceptable behavior, weather you're an esports representative, actual sports representative, or some shitkicker in a bar who runs his mouth when he's had a few too many. If you claim that that kind of thing really isn't a big deal, go call a couple random asian people you meet chinks or gooks or whatever else and see if it doesn't hurt their feelings or make them mad (or call a black person a nigger, or a latino a spic, etc, etc). The truth is that while you may not think it's a big deal, it is to them, and you're never going to know until you get put in that same situation, and I think it's good that we shun people who are ignorant enough to think that it's ok because he didn't really mean it.That kind of language and sentiment shouldn't be acceptable anywhere, and I think it's really immature to brush it off with "he was just mad" or "he's just playing a game"
As to the esports fanaticism, I think that's obviously bad in a lot of cases and really annoying. However, I agree with the aforementioned post by Jinro, letting that ruin your experience is like saying a professional sport hurts your ability to play a sport casually. Don't post in "esports" threads if you don't like "esports" topics. That's what I do.
On the outside, I have no problems with people taking a video game so seriously it comes to the point of making a career out of it. It is their choice, and it is no less senseless to cheer for 22 players kick a ball around a grass field.
On the inside, I would never want to be that person.
On May 04 2012 05:19 Clandrone wrote: "While different opinions are welcome, please try to keep debate civil. Flaming is unacceptable on these forums, and ad hominem attacks are not appreciated."
Please tell that to Gheed, Empyrean, his entire blog is flaming those who put their blood, sweat, tears, time, and money into the esports scene. Warn him to show a little respect please. All I ask is equality.
This is the quintissential ESPORTS evangelical.
Here's a thought: Starcraft 2 is just a game.
Think about that for a moment, what that sentence means.
Just a game.
It's not a movement. It's not even a "scene." It's a video game that you play or watch primarily for fun.
I can't even fathom any other reason to play a game, or have interest in it in the first place. The whole thing just blows my mind.
I need to get off TeamLiquid for a while. Can a mod ban me for two weeks? (I actually need to focus on other things right now, and the above post is just one example why, besides being busy.) God bless everyone, have fun gl gg.
exactly this is the point, why gheeds OP is so absurd. why do you even CARE about the "esport movement", if sc2 is "just a game" for you?
XDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
Because the very idea of it is flawed and ridiculous. This Utopia you guys dream about between gamer enthusiasts doesn't exist. We come from all different walks of life and have different tastes when it comes to not only what we play, but how we play it and why.
On May 04 2012 05:19 Clandrone wrote: "While different opinions are welcome, please try to keep debate civil. Flaming is unacceptable on these forums, and ad hominem attacks are not appreciated."
Please tell that to Gheed, Empyrean, his entire blog is flaming those who put their blood, sweat, tears, time, and money into the esports scene. Warn him to show a little respect please. All I ask is equality.
This is the quintissential ESPORTS evangelical.
Here's a thought: Starcraft 2 is just a game.
Think about that for a moment, what that sentence means.
Just a game.
It's not a movement. It's not even a "scene." It's a video game that you play or watch primarily for fun.
I can't even fathom any other reason to play a game, or have interest in it in the first place. The whole thing just blows my mind.
I need to get off TeamLiquid for a while. Can a mod ban me for two weeks? (I actually need to focus on other things right now, and the above post is just one example why, besides being busy.) God bless everyone, have fun gl gg.
exactly this is the point, why gheeds OP is so absurd. why do you even CARE about the "esport movement", if sc2 is "just a game" for you?
XDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
Disclaimer: I do not speak for anyone but myself.
I do not hate e-sports. But I hate what e-sports has become. I do not discredit those who have put their work into events; nay, I celebrate them. Their effect is a sight to behold and has become something truly marvelous.
What I do hate is the evangelical rhetoric that surrounds the phrase e-sports. People have created an artificial dogma that permeates throughout the boards. There is an illusory ideal that can never be met, or even agreed upon. But this ideal that becomes an all-consuming blight. It blows up, crucifies, witch-hunts, and compunds upon itself, magnifying the slightest ills; it's demanded that casters be fired, players be released, and caused companies to contort their cultures and outlook in order to please the e-sports fanatics.
But none of this would be wrong if not for that fact that the phrase "e-sports" was not a sham. People decry the slightest problems as unprofessional. Being unprofessional will lead to less sponsors. Less sponsors will lead to the death of esports as we know it. That chain of causality fails to appreciate the complexity of sponsor decisions and indeed fails to appreciate the complexity of growing a new activity as a whole. In truth there are exactly zero people who know how to make e-sports mainstream. Perhaps it's this sterile, tame, dried out version of e-sports that will thrive and prosper. Perhaps not. I merely believe that we attach far too much importance to a phrase that ultimately promises so little; I don't know where this train ends but neither to the e-sports evangelisists.
I can't help but feel this is just someone ranting on a personal hobby that they don't want to go 'mainstream'.
I don't see why, for example, football 'deserves' to be mainstream, but a good, watchable videogame like SC does not. Both are games. Nothing more, nothing less. The only thing seperating them is some weird thought in the back of people's heads that because SC is virtual means it's somehow less 'worthy' than a physical game.
On May 04 2012 05:19 Clandrone wrote: "While different opinions are welcome, please try to keep debate civil. Flaming is unacceptable on these forums, and ad hominem attacks are not appreciated."
Please tell that to Gheed, Empyrean, his entire blog is flaming those who put their blood, sweat, tears, time, and money into the esports scene. Warn him to show a little respect please. All I ask is equality.
This is the quintissential ESPORTS evangelical.
Here's a thought: Starcraft 2 is just a game.
Think about that for a moment, what that sentence means.
Just a game.
It's not a movement. It's not even a "scene." It's a video game that you play or watch primarily for fun.
I can't even fathom any other reason to play a game, or have interest in it in the first place. The whole thing just blows my mind.
I need to get off TeamLiquid for a while. Can a mod ban me for two weeks? (I actually need to focus on other things right now, and the above post is just one example why, besides being busy.) God bless everyone, have fun gl gg.
exactly this is the point, why gheeds OP is so absurd. why do you even CARE about the "esport movement", if sc2 is "just a game" for you?
XDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
Disclaimer: I do not speak for anyone but myself.
I do not hate e-sports. But I hate what e-sports has become. I do not discredit those who have put their work into events; nay, I celebrate them. Their effect is a sight to behold and has become something truly marvelous.
What I do hate is the evangelical rhetoric that surrounds the phrase e-sports. People have created an artificial dogma that permeates throughout the boards. There is an illusory ideal that can never be met, or even agreed upon. But this ideal that becomes an all-consuming blight. It blows up, crucifies, witch-hunts, and compunds upon itself, magnifying the slightest ills; it's demanded that casters be fired, players be released, and caused companies to contort their cultures and outlook in order to please the e-sports fanatics.
But none of this would be wrong if not for that fact that the phrase "e-sports" was not a sham. People decry the slightest problems as unprofessional. Being unprofessional will lead to less sponsors. Less sponsors will lead to the death of esports as we know it. That chain of causality fails to appreciate the complexity of sponsor decisions and indeed fails to appreciate the complexity of growing a new activity as a whole. In truth there are exactly zero people who know how to make e-sports mainstream. Perhaps it's this sterile, tame, dried out version of e-sports that will thrive and prosper. Perhaps not. I merely believe that we attach far too much importance to a phrase that ultimately promises so little; I don't know where this train ends but neither to the e-sports evangelisists.
You are totally right, that group of Esportologists can be pretty annoying, but i just can´t see where they are harming anyone. People like Idra, Naniwa, Huk or Stephano, the most beloved (or hated ^^) players we got, are not sterile at all. Players make manner mules, buildings, or let untis dance at the end of a game. Casters are using mature language, and encourage us to play funmaps/strats.
is he:
a boring person, just because he don´t say "gook" or "nigger" all the time?
On May 04 2012 05:19 Clandrone wrote: "While different opinions are welcome, please try to keep debate civil. Flaming is unacceptable on these forums, and ad hominem attacks are not appreciated."
Please tell that to Gheed, Empyrean, his entire blog is flaming those who put their blood, sweat, tears, time, and money into the esports scene. Warn him to show a little respect please. All I ask is equality.
This is the quintissential ESPORTS evangelical.
Here's a thought: Starcraft 2 is just a game.
Think about that for a moment, what that sentence means.
Just a game.
It's not a movement. It's not even a "scene." It's a video game that you play or watch primarily for fun.
I can't even fathom any other reason to play a game, or have interest in it in the first place. The whole thing just blows my mind.
I need to get off TeamLiquid for a while. Can a mod ban me for two weeks? (I actually need to focus on other things right now, and the above post is just one example why, besides being busy.) God bless everyone, have fun gl gg.
exactly this is the point, why gheeds OP is so absurd. why do you even CARE about the "esport movement", if sc2 is "just a game" for you?
XDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
Disclaimer: I do not speak for anyone but myself.
I do not hate e-sports. But I hate what e-sports has become. I do not discredit those who have put their work into events; nay, I celebrate them. Their effect is a sight to behold and has become something truly marvelous.
What I do hate is the evangelical rhetoric that surrounds the phrase e-sports. People have created an artificial dogma that permeates throughout the boards. There is an illusory ideal that can never be met, or even agreed upon. But this ideal that becomes an all-consuming blight. It blows up, crucifies, witch-hunts, and compunds upon itself, magnifying the slightest ills; it's demanded that casters be fired, players be released, and caused companies to contort their cultures and outlook in order to please the e-sports fanatics.
But none of this would be wrong if not for that fact that the phrase "e-sports" was not a sham. People decry the slightest problems as unprofessional. Being unprofessional will lead to less sponsors. Less sponsors will lead to the death of esports as we know it. That chain of causality fails to appreciate the complexity of sponsor decisions and indeed fails to appreciate the complexity of growing a new activity as a whole. In truth there are exactly zero people who know how to make e-sports mainstream. Perhaps it's this sterile, tame, dried out version of e-sports that will thrive and prosper. Perhaps not. I merely believe that we attach far too much importance to a phrase that ultimately promises so little; I don't know where this train ends but neither to the e-sports evangelisists.
You are totally right, that group of Esportologists can be pretty annoying, but i just can´t see where they are harming anyone. People like Idra, Naniwa, Huk or Stephano, the most beloved (or hated ^^) players we got, are not sterile at all. Players make manner mules, buildings, or let untis dance at the end of a game. Casters are using mature language, and encourage us to play funmaps/strats.
On May 04 2012 05:19 Clandrone wrote: "While different opinions are welcome, please try to keep debate civil. Flaming is unacceptable on these forums, and ad hominem attacks are not appreciated."
Please tell that to Gheed, Empyrean, his entire blog is flaming those who put their blood, sweat, tears, time, and money into the esports scene. Warn him to show a little respect please. All I ask is equality.
This is the quintissential ESPORTS evangelical.
Here's a thought: Starcraft 2 is just a game.
Think about that for a moment, what that sentence means.
Just a game.
It's not a movement. It's not even a "scene." It's a video game that you play or watch primarily for fun.
I can't even fathom any other reason to play a game, or have interest in it in the first place. The whole thing just blows my mind.
I need to get off TeamLiquid for a while. Can a mod ban me for two weeks? (I actually need to focus on other things right now, and the above post is just one example why, besides being busy.) God bless everyone, have fun gl gg.
exactly this is the point, why gheeds OP is so absurd. why do you even CARE about the "esport movement", if sc2 is "just a game" for you?
XDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
Disclaimer: I do not speak for anyone but myself.
I do not hate e-sports. But I hate what e-sports has become. I do not discredit those who have put their work into events; nay, I celebrate them. Their effect is a sight to behold and has become something truly marvelous.
What I do hate is the evangelical rhetoric that surrounds the phrase e-sports. People have created an artificial dogma that permeates throughout the boards. There is an illusory ideal that can never be met, or even agreed upon. But this ideal that becomes an all-consuming blight. It blows up, crucifies, witch-hunts, and compunds upon itself, magnifying the slightest ills; it's demanded that casters be fired, players be released, and caused companies to contort their cultures and outlook in order to please the e-sports fanatics.
But none of this would be wrong if not for that fact that the phrase "e-sports" was not a sham. People decry the slightest problems as unprofessional. Being unprofessional will lead to less sponsors. Less sponsors will lead to the death of esports as we know it. That chain of causality fails to appreciate the complexity of sponsor decisions and indeed fails to appreciate the complexity of growing a new activity as a whole. In truth there are exactly zero people who know how to make e-sports mainstream. Perhaps it's this sterile, tame, dried out version of e-sports that will thrive and prosper. Perhaps not. I merely believe that we attach far too much importance to a phrase that ultimately promises so little; I don't know where this train ends but neither to the e-sports evangelisists.
You are totally right, that group of Esportologists can be pretty annoying, but i just can´t see where they are harming anyone. People like Idra, Naniwa, Huk or Stephano, the most beloved (or hated ^^) players we got, are not sterile at all. Players make manner mules, buildings, or let untis dance at the end of a game. Casters are using mature language, and encourage us to play funmaps/strats.
When I first read this I was sorta on the fence. After the whole destiny crap, I gotta say I agree. Was destiny an idiot? Sure. Was intrigue an ass? Definitely. There's tons of ways for people to behave without shitting up everything. All the holier than thou idiots who rant and rave in the name of esports get so old, as do the people who just post like dicks in those threads generally. Stuff gets so toxic, lets just play some sc.
On May 04 2012 19:02 Thorakh wrote: I can't help but feel this is just someone ranting on a personal hobby that they don't want to go 'mainstream'.
I don't see why, for example, football 'deserves' to be mainstream, but a good, watchable videogame like SC does not. Both are games. Nothing more, nothing less. The only thing seperating them is some weird thought in the back of people's heads that because SC is virtual means it's somehow less 'worthy' than a physical game.
Football deserves to be mainstream because it is a sport in which the worse team can win against the better team much more than in most sports, so everybody has a chance, everybody is having fun, everybody wants to cheer for someone.
On May 04 2012 05:19 Clandrone wrote: "While different opinions are welcome, please try to keep debate civil. Flaming is unacceptable on these forums, and ad hominem attacks are not appreciated."
Please tell that to Gheed, Empyrean, his entire blog is flaming those who put their blood, sweat, tears, time, and money into the esports scene. Warn him to show a little respect please. All I ask is equality.
This is the quintissential ESPORTS evangelical.
Here's a thought: Starcraft 2 is just a game.
Think about that for a moment, what that sentence means.
Just a game.
It's not a movement. It's not even a "scene." It's a video game that you play or watch primarily for fun.
I can't even fathom any other reason to play a game, or have interest in it in the first place. The whole thing just blows my mind.
I need to get off TeamLiquid for a while. Can a mod ban me for two weeks? (I actually need to focus on other things right now, and the above post is just one example why, besides being busy.) God bless everyone, have fun gl gg.
exactly this is the point, why gheeds OP is so absurd. why do you even CARE about the "esport movement", if sc2 is "just a game" for you?
XDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
Disclaimer: I do not speak for anyone but myself.
I do not hate e-sports. But I hate what e-sports has become. I do not discredit those who have put their work into events; nay, I celebrate them. Their effect is a sight to behold and has become something truly marvelous.
What I do hate is the evangelical rhetoric that surrounds the phrase e-sports. People have created an artificial dogma that permeates throughout the boards. There is an illusory ideal that can never be met, or even agreed upon. But this ideal that becomes an all-consuming blight. It blows up, crucifies, witch-hunts, and compunds upon itself, magnifying the slightest ills; it's demanded that casters be fired, players be released, and caused companies to contort their cultures and outlook in order to please the e-sports fanatics.
But none of this would be wrong if not for that fact that the phrase "e-sports" was not a sham. People decry the slightest problems as unprofessional. Being unprofessional will lead to less sponsors. Less sponsors will lead to the death of esports as we know it. That chain of causality fails to appreciate the complexity of sponsor decisions and indeed fails to appreciate the complexity of growing a new activity as a whole. In truth there are exactly zero people who know how to make e-sports mainstream. Perhaps it's this sterile, tame, dried out version of e-sports that will thrive and prosper. Perhaps not. I merely believe that we attach far too much importance to a phrase that ultimately promises so little; I don't know where this train ends but neither to the e-sports evangelisists.
You are totally right, that group of Esportologists can be pretty annoying, but i just can´t see where they are harming anyone. People like Idra, Naniwa, Huk or Stephano, the most beloved (or hated ^^) players we got, are not sterile at all. Players make manner mules, buildings, or let untis dance at the end of a game. Casters are using mature language, and encourage us to play funmaps/strats.
i could post stuff like this for hours. =)
I don't really like Destiny. In fact, I think his racist tendencies are obnoxious and that he has so many fans saddens me.
I also don't mean that our version of e-sports is tame. I mean the "esportvangelisists" vision is tame. Look at your list. Yes, the song showed creativity. Yes the casters still have personality. But if they show to much personality they are blamed for unprofessional behavior. And that stripper? You don't remember how infuriated people were? how people declared that we'd never get sponsors as a result?
I love the community. But I hate how people take our dream of mainstream gaming prisoner and use it against us, asking: "Don't you want e-sports?"
On May 04 2012 05:19 Clandrone wrote: "While different opinions are welcome, please try to keep debate civil. Flaming is unacceptable on these forums, and ad hominem attacks are not appreciated."
Please tell that to Gheed, Empyrean, his entire blog is flaming those who put their blood, sweat, tears, time, and money into the esports scene. Warn him to show a little respect please. All I ask is equality.
This is the quintissential ESPORTS evangelical.
Here's a thought: Starcraft 2 is just a game.
Think about that for a moment, what that sentence means.
Just a game.
It's not a movement. It's not even a "scene." It's a video game that you play or watch primarily for fun.
I can't even fathom any other reason to play a game, or have interest in it in the first place. The whole thing just blows my mind.
I need to get off TeamLiquid for a while. Can a mod ban me for two weeks? (I actually need to focus on other things right now, and the above post is just one example why, besides being busy.) God bless everyone, have fun gl gg.
exactly this is the point, why gheeds OP is so absurd. why do you even CARE about the "esport movement", if sc2 is "just a game" for you?
XDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
Disclaimer: I do not speak for anyone but myself.
I do not hate e-sports. But I hate what e-sports has become. I do not discredit those who have put their work into events; nay, I celebrate them. Their effect is a sight to behold and has become something truly marvelous.
What I do hate is the evangelical rhetoric that surrounds the phrase e-sports. People have created an artificial dogma that permeates throughout the boards. There is an illusory ideal that can never be met, or even agreed upon. But this ideal that becomes an all-consuming blight. It blows up, crucifies, witch-hunts, and compunds upon itself, magnifying the slightest ills; it's demanded that casters be fired, players be released, and caused companies to contort their cultures and outlook in order to please the e-sports fanatics.
But none of this would be wrong if not for that fact that the phrase "e-sports" was not a sham. People decry the slightest problems as unprofessional. Being unprofessional will lead to less sponsors. Less sponsors will lead to the death of esports as we know it. That chain of causality fails to appreciate the complexity of sponsor decisions and indeed fails to appreciate the complexity of growing a new activity as a whole. In truth there are exactly zero people who know how to make e-sports mainstream. Perhaps it's this sterile, tame, dried out version of e-sports that will thrive and prosper. Perhaps not. I merely believe that we attach far too much importance to a phrase that ultimately promises so little; I don't know where this train ends but neither to the e-sports evangelisists.
This and the OP summarize my thoughts perfectly. Thank you.
On May 05 2012 00:28 DamageControL wrote: And that stripper? You don't remember how infuriated people were? how people declared that we'd never get sponsors as a result?
Shit I totally missed that one. God I hate "ESPORTS"!
I don't hope it all comes crashing down, but I totally understand this obsession over ESPORTS and everywhere you look its another post about what we all need to do as a community to further SC2 into the mainstream.
Sometimes it's just like shut up, I'm totally happy with what we have right now, I could care less if the scene didn't get any bigger than it is right now.
On May 02 2012 10:20 Gheed wrote: As I said in my post in that thread, which I assume was buried in less than a second, if Quantic does the reasonable thing and does not do shit, then I'm buying a shirt or a hoodie from them.
On May 04 2012 19:02 Thorakh wrote: I don't see why, for example, football 'deserves' to be mainstream, but a good, watchable videogame like SC does not. Both are games. Nothing more, nothing less. The only thing seperating them is some weird thought in the back of people's heads that because SC is virtual means it's somehow less 'worthy' than a physical game.
How about the part where football has hundreds of years of history and tradition, and there are places where it's a part of national culture? And most of this history comes BEFORE all the big sponsors, media and money came in (which happened only in the last 30 or 40 years). For most of its history, there was virtually no money in football. Assuming you're talking about the actual football, not handegg of course.
When Starcraft 2 is a hundred, nay, just TEN years old (say pro BW age) and if people still happen to play it and enjoy competing in it, I'll start a campaign myself to introduce it as an Olympic sport or esport or whatever you want. But we all know that is never going to happen. Western "esports" is just a sponsor-driven marketing scheme that will hop from one video game to the other and never give a single one of them enough legitimacy to be rightfully called a sport.
A sport is a game that grows organically and gains in players and popularity regardless of how much media attention it gets. Without that, there is ZERO long term potential and zero chance of the competition ever reaching a serious enough level. And SC2 even with all the media attention it gets is losing players by the day.
That's actually the ONE thing that people could do to really help Starcraft grow into a sport - play the fucking game. Seriously, just by being a player they'd be helping out more than getting involved in esportvangelical mobs, creating "content", giving MLG money, watching streams, etc. Just one more active SC2 1v1 player is worth more than all of that. But alas, no, we now have "the ladder anxiety syndrome", or in other words, we're being pussies and cop out of playing the game we claim to be so passionate about and involved in (yes, I'm guilty of that myself, although I'm not particularly passionate to begin with so there's that too). Being a fan and watching the game and acting important on forums is SO much easier and more fun. -_-
Guess what, ultimately, at some point, nobody will care about a game that nobody plays even if everything else is perfect.
Nothing says that I can't have fun in my own "non-esports world" and playing the game that I love and esports growing at the same time. With more people getting involved in gaming, it is bound to garner more attention (both good and bad, but definitely more positive). However nothing changed, you had shitty games then, you have shitty games now. Why can't we, as gamers, enjoy the game regardless of what is going on in the community?
On May 03 2012 10:52 nastharl wrote: Heres the thing. Heres the reason that i'm OK with people railing on destiny. Heres why we should witch-hunt every person out there over the age of 18 who fucks up. Heres there reason why people deserve to lose their jobs over crap like this.
Because society is better off with less people acting like assholes, and when assholes realize that acting like an asshole has consequences. And the more prominent people that get called out for it, the less likly people are to imitate them and act like assholes. Freedom of speech defense is a bullshit argument because you want to be able to act like an asshole and seem like its OK. ITS NOT OK TO BE AN ASSHOLE.
Noone is forcing you to read threads about it. Noone is forcing you to comment on it. Noone is forcing you to be aware of it. You have the option RIGHT NOW to totally ignore all drama. However, you choose to read the drama and then be mad about it. Dont hold other people responsible for your choices.
Spiting people for being an asshole is calling the kettle black. I don't see how in one train of logic, you can say anyone who is an asshole who is over 18 deserves to lose their jobs, but in another, you can say it's incredibly easy to just ignore it. I hope you lose your job one day over a random complaint that a person shares with a group of friends who plot against you, just because you had a bad day at work. And not just any job either, one you put blood, sweat and tears into. One that requires talent that simply going to school for just doesn't cut. I really hope this happens to you so you can develop the kind of empathy you lack, because it makes you an asshole without it but more importantly a hypocritical asshole.
On May 03 2012 10:52 nastharl wrote: Heres the thing. Heres the reason that i'm OK with people railing on destiny. Heres why we should witch-hunt every person out there over the age of 18 who fucks up. Heres there reason why people deserve to lose their jobs over crap like this.
Because society is better off with less people acting like assholes, and when assholes realize that acting like an asshole has consequences. And the more prominent people that get called out for it, the less likly people are to imitate them and act like assholes. Freedom of speech defense is a bullshit argument because you want to be able to act like an asshole and seem like its OK. ITS NOT OK TO BE AN ASSHOLE.
Noone is forcing you to read threads about it. Noone is forcing you to comment on it. Noone is forcing you to be aware of it. You have the option RIGHT NOW to totally ignore all drama. However, you choose to read the drama and then be mad about it. Dont hold other people responsible for your choices.
Spiting people for being an asshole is calling the kettle black. I don't see how in one train of logic, you can say anyone who is an asshole who is over 18 deserves to lose their jobs, but in another, you can say it's incredibly easy to just ignore it. I hope you lose your job one day over a random complaint that a person shares with a group of friends who plot against you, just because you had a bad day at work. And not just any job either, one you put blood, sweat and tears into. One that requires talent that simply going to school for just doesn't cut. I really hope this happens to you so you can develop the kind of empathy you lack, because it makes you an asshole without it but more importantly a hypocritical asshole.
This is a point of view I find somewhat confusing.
Destiny acts like an arsehole all the time, there is nothing defensible about the way he treats some people who beat him. He knows that the way he behaves is incompatible with the wishes of most pro teams (so far complexity and Quantic), he fully understands this and he refuses to change himself for that anyway.
It's his fault entirely that he got into that position.
EDIT- and as to the OP, what jinro posted I agree with 100%
The saddest part is you, my friend, are now part of esports too. And that I'm only voting 5, because I'm a moronic esports devotee who saw your blog, because it was featured - for us, the e-minions, to notice. On a brighter note, go SP games.
On May 04 2012 19:02 Thorakh wrote: I don't see why, for example, football 'deserves' to be mainstream, but a good, watchable videogame like SC does not. Both are games. Nothing more, nothing less. The only thing seperating them is some weird thought in the back of people's heads that because SC is virtual means it's somehow less 'worthy' than a physical game.
How about the part where football has hundreds of years of history and tradition, and there are places where it's a part of national culture? And most of this history comes BEFORE all the big sponsors, media and money came in (which happened only in the last 30 or 40 years). For most of its history, there was virtually no money in football. Assuming you're talking about the actual football, not handegg of course.
When Starcraft 2 is a hundred, nay, just TEN years old (say pro BW age) and if people still happen to play it and enjoy competing in it, I'll start a campaign myself to introduce it as an Olympic sport or esport or whatever you want. But we all know that is never going to happen. Western "esports" is just a sponsor-driven marketing scheme that will hop from one video game to the other and never give a single one of them enough legitimacy to be rightfully called a sport.
A sport is a game that grows organically and gains in players and popularity regardless of how much media attention it gets. Without that, there is ZERO long term potential and zero chance of the competition ever reaching a serious enough level. And SC2 even with all the media attention it gets is losing players by the day.
That's actually the ONE thing that people could do to really help Starcraft grow into a sport - play the fucking game. Seriously, just by being a player they'd be helping out more than getting involved in esportvangelical mobs, creating "content", giving MLG money, watching streams, etc. Just one more active SC2 1v1 player is worth more than all of that. But alas, no, we now have "the ladder anxiety syndrome", or in other words, we're being pussies and cop out of playing the game we claim to be so passionate about and involved in (yes, I'm guilty of that myself, although I'm not particularly passionate to begin with so there's that too). Being a fan and watching the game and acting important on forums is SO much easier and more fun. -_-
Guess what, ultimately, at some point, nobody will care about a game that nobody plays even if everything else is perfect.
You're using Football as an example of a sport with tradition behind it and that's cool. Starcraft can never be football, the same way it can never be Baseball.
Explain to me why Starcraft can't be like Golf? bowling? or Professional Poker?
There's already activities out there that are considered "sports" that go against exactly the kind of philosophy you're trying to illustrate.
At the end of the day, e-sports is all about competition. Skill driven competition. Competition is the same whether it's on a court or at a computer. It's the natural urge of men to compete with each other. E-sports is just as legitimate in that regard as so many other things are.
Amen. I think it`s more than annoying, that all the casters and other "personalitys" try forcing the fans to do this and that. otherwise they would be hurting esports. I`m not sure, but I guess hotbid started to use the term esport in a kinda funny way, where he put some huge weight into the word. That was funny - in a hotbid-like way. All the other people who jumped on the bandwagon and grabed "esports" and threw it in everybodys face, were lazy idiots. Why overuse this fragile term? Why not come up with something unique? Why killing the subtlety?
I agree with most of what you wrote. I'm not interested in Starcraft going "mainstream" if that means we have to give up everything that made us a community in the first place. We're gamers, not suit-wearing corporate representatives. But I don't want SCII to die either. I enjoy watching the game (and ONLY the game, not the fancy interviews and documentaries and whatever around it).
What bugs me the most is this shitty political correctness thing that is forced on everyone (see the Destiny "incident") by random people who apparently can't handle hearing or reading certain words without freaking the fuck out. Running to Quantic's sponsors and potentially endangering the future of their whole Starcraft squad because of a word Destiny typed on his stream? Bah.
Where are the good old days when TL Mods wrote songs about their crotches? When you could say that you raped that one guy on ICCUP/ladder without fear of being hunted down by the PR police? When we didn't have threads about how casters need to dress and how Day9 needs to trim his left eyebrow and Wheat needs to straighten his tie, because they might be hurting the growth of esports if they don't?
I guess there's some of us who just don't really fit into this new vision of the Starcraft community anymore. But that's fine, I'll keep watching the game I love and refrain from participating in discussions too much.
On May 04 2012 19:02 Thorakh wrote: I don't see why, for example, football 'deserves' to be mainstream, but a good, watchable videogame like SC does not. Both are games. Nothing more, nothing less. The only thing seperating them is some weird thought in the back of people's heads that because SC is virtual means it's somehow less 'worthy' than a physical game.
How about the part where football has hundreds of years of history and tradition, and there are places where it's a part of national culture? And most of this history comes BEFORE all the big sponsors, media and money came in (which happened only in the last 30 or 40 years). For most of its history, there was virtually no money in football. Assuming you're talking about the actual football, not handegg of course.
When Starcraft 2 is a hundred, nay, just TEN years old (say pro BW age) and if people still happen to play it and enjoy competing in it, I'll start a campaign myself to introduce it as an Olympic sport or esport or whatever you want. But we all know that is never going to happen. Western "esports" is just a sponsor-driven marketing scheme that will hop from one video game to the other and never give a single one of them enough legitimacy to be rightfully called a sport.
A sport is a game that grows organically and gains in players and popularity regardless of how much media attention it gets. Without that, there is ZERO long term potential and zero chance of the competition ever reaching a serious enough level. And SC2 even with all the media attention it gets is losing players by the day.
That's actually the ONE thing that people could do to really help Starcraft grow into a sport - play the fucking game. Seriously, just by being a player they'd be helping out more than getting involved in esportvangelical mobs, creating "content", giving MLG money, watching streams, etc. Just one more active SC2 1v1 player is worth more than all of that. But alas, no, we now have "the ladder anxiety syndrome", or in other words, we're being pussies and cop out of playing the game we claim to be so passionate about and involved in (yes, I'm guilty of that myself, although I'm not particularly passionate to begin with so there's that too). Being a fan and watching the game and acting important on forums is SO much easier and more fun. -_-
Guess what, ultimately, at some point, nobody will care about a game that nobody plays even if everything else is perfect.
You're using Football as an example of a sport with tradition behind it and that's cool. Starcraft can never be football, the same way it can never be Baseball.
Explain to me why Starcraft can't be like Golf? bowling? or Professional Poker?
There's already activities out there that are considered "sports" that go against exactly the kind of philosophy you're trying to illustrate.
At the end of the day, e-sports is all about competition. Skill driven competition. Competition is the same whether it's on a court or at a computer. It's the natural urge of men to compete with each other. E-sports is just as legitimate in that regard as so many other things are.
I didn't choose to use football as an example, the post I replied to did. Golf, bowling and poker also have decades of tradition and are played worldwide. Poker is a century old game for crying out loud. Legitimacy is based on recognition and acceptance, not anyone's personal definition of a sport.
Besides, I'm not even saying that it can't be a sport given enough time and proper promotion of the game - I'm just saying it won't be one, because of how esports works in the west. It might be one in Korea again because they have structure and direction (or at least KeSPA does), but it still largely depends on the popularity of the game itself, and that doesn't look too bright either.
On May 06 2012 01:05 KNICK wrote: I agree with most of what you wrote. I'm not interested in Starcraft going "mainstream" if that means we have to give up everything that made us a community in the first place. We're gamers, not suit-wearing corporate representatives. But I don't want SCII to die either. I enjoy watching the game (and ONLY the game, not the fancy interviews and documentaries and whatever around it).
What bugs me the most is this shitty political correctness thing that is forced on everyone (see the Destiny "incident") by random people who apparently can't handle hearing or reading certain words without freaking the fuck out. Running to Quantic's sponsors and potentially endangering the future of their whole Starcraft squad because of a word Destiny typed on his stream? Bah.
Where are the good old days when TL Mods wrote songs about their crotches? When you could say that you raped that one guy on ICCUP/ladder without fear of being hunted down by the PR police? When we didn't have threads about how casters need to dress and how Day9 needs to trim his left eyebrow and Wheat needs to straighten his tie, because they might be hurting the growth of esports if they don't?
I guess there's some of us who just don't really fit into this new vision of the Starcraft community anymore. But that's fine, I'll keep watching the game I love and refrain from participating in discussions too much.
same here to be completely honest, I was equally as mad at TL's mod because they let the thread opened. I wasn't sure if the thread was even meant for a discussion anyway. I mean given destiny's personality and amount of hours he stream, it is SO SCARY to know how vulnerable he is to these kind of hate threads. All you need to do is: cheese, forward BM and win. repeat enough and eventually you will get some BMs and maybe some racist comments. Then just screen cap and start a thread on TL and watch. The guy had nothing to lose and don't need to do much except to enjoy watching the thread to go wild and it will almost always get the goal done.
(And to be honest, being asian myself, being called racist slur is probably a million times less hurtful than personal attacks, so maybe I am biased here. But if it was stereotyping and racist, then I will be offended. example: go fuck ur mum with ur 3inch asian dick. One that I actually got when I was playing dota)
On May 06 2012 01:05 KNICK wrote: I agree with most of what you wrote. I'm not interested in Starcraft going "mainstream" if that means we have to give up everything that made us a community in the first place. We're gamers, not suit-wearing corporate representatives. But I don't want SCII to die either. I enjoy watching the game (and ONLY the game, not the fancy interviews and documentaries and whatever around it).
What bugs me the most is this shitty political correctness thing that is forced on everyone (see the Destiny "incident") by random people who apparently can't handle hearing or reading certain words without freaking the fuck out. Running to Quantic's sponsors and potentially endangering the future of their whole Starcraft squad because of a word Destiny typed on his stream? Bah.
Where are the good old days when TL Mods wrote songs about their crotches? When you could say that you raped that one guy on ICCUP/ladder without fear of being hunted down by the PR police? When we didn't have threads about how casters need to dress and how Day9 needs to trim his left eyebrow and Wheat needs to straighten his tie, because they might be hurting the growth of esports if they don't?
I guess there's some of us who just don't really fit into this new vision of the Starcraft community anymore. But that's fine, I'll keep watching the game I love and refrain from participating in discussions too much.
same here to be completely honest, I was equally as mad at TL's mod because they let the thread opened. I wasn't sure if the thread was even meant for a discussion anyway. I mean given destiny's personality and amount of hours he stream, it is SO SCARY to know how vulnerable he is to these kind of hate threads. All you need to do is: cheese, forward BM and win. repeat enough and eventually you will get some BMs and maybe some racist comments. Then just screen cap and start a thread on TL and watch. The guy had nothing to lose and don't need to do much except to enjoy watching the thread to go wild and it will almost always get the goal done.
(And to be honest, being asian myself, being called racist slur is probably a million times less hurtful than personal attacks, so maybe I am biased here. But if it was stereotyping and racist, then I will be offended. example: go fuck ur mum with ur 3inch asian dick. One that I actually got when I was playing dota)
It scares me to think that these people are theoretically capable of simply getting rid of the players they don't like which will create a place where everybody lives in a safe little bubble wrap and where uttering some bad words means you get torch'd and pitchforked to death.
Holy shit, that would be so extremely boring, can you imagine?
On May 06 2012 01:05 KNICK wrote: I agree with most of what you wrote. I'm not interested in Starcraft going "mainstream" if that means we have to give up everything that made us a community in the first place. We're gamers, not suit-wearing corporate representatives. But I don't want SCII to die either. I enjoy watching the game (and ONLY the game, not the fancy interviews and documentaries and whatever around it).
What bugs me the most is this shitty political correctness thing that is forced on everyone (see the Destiny "incident") by random people who apparently can't handle hearing or reading certain words without freaking the fuck out. Running to Quantic's sponsors and potentially endangering the future of their whole Starcraft squad because of a word Destiny typed on his stream? Bah.
Where are the good old days when TL Mods wrote songs about their crotches? When you could say that you raped that one guy on ICCUP/ladder without fear of being hunted down by the PR police? When we didn't have threads about how casters need to dress and how Day9 needs to trim his left eyebrow and Wheat needs to straighten his tie, because they might be hurting the growth of esports if they don't?
I guess there's some of us who just don't really fit into this new vision of the Starcraft community anymore. But that's fine, I'll keep watching the game I love and refrain from participating in discussions too much.
same here to be completely honest, I was equally as mad at TL's mod because they let the thread opened. I wasn't sure if the thread was even meant for a discussion anyway.
The moderation has gone way downhill. Just about the only reasons people get banned for these days are being politically incorrect, memes, or blunt one liners. -_-
On May 06 2012 01:05 KNICK wrote: I agree with most of what you wrote. I'm not interested in Starcraft going "mainstream" if that means we have to give up everything that made us a community in the first place. We're gamers, not suit-wearing corporate representatives. But I don't want SCII to die either. I enjoy watching the game (and ONLY the game, not the fancy interviews and documentaries and whatever around it).
What bugs me the most is this shitty political correctness thing that is forced on everyone (see the Destiny "incident") by random people who apparently can't handle hearing or reading certain words without freaking the fuck out. Running to Quantic's sponsors and potentially endangering the future of their whole Starcraft squad because of a word Destiny typed on his stream? Bah.
Where are the good old days when TL Mods wrote songs about their crotches? When you could say that you raped that one guy on ICCUP/ladder without fear of being hunted down by the PR police? When we didn't have threads about how casters need to dress and how Day9 needs to trim his left eyebrow and Wheat needs to straighten his tie, because they might be hurting the growth of esports if they don't?
I guess there's some of us who just don't really fit into this new vision of the Starcraft community anymore. But that's fine, I'll keep watching the game I love and refrain from participating in discussions too much.
same here to be completely honest, I was equally as mad at TL's mod because they let the thread opened. I wasn't sure if the thread was even meant for a discussion anyway.
The moderation has gone way downhill. Just about the only reasons people get banned for these days are being politically incorrect, memes, or blunt one liners. -_-
Fortunately, you don't have any sponsors so at least the lynch mob spillover in here can't affect your life. Fuck eSports, and fuck everybody who thinks they're so much better than me or somebody else for posting honorable words on an internet forum. The only results that I've seen from this and orb is that two guys had their sponsors taken away from them within 24 hours with zero chance of negotiation with their own team, and no second chance to improve. Instead it's just punishment punishment punishment.
Fortunately, you don't have any sponsors so at least the lynch mob spillover in here can't affect your life. Fuck eSports, and fuck everybody who thinks they're so much better than me or somebody else for posting honorable words on an internet forum. The only results that I've seen from this and orb is that two guys had their sponsors taken away from them within 24 hours with zero chance of negotiation with their own team, and no second chance to improve. Instead it's just punishment punishment punishment.
What has happened in the Destiny thread really upset me, so many people emailing sponsors just to try to get more people hurt and in trouble disgusts me.
I love eSports but I really hate some of the things that are happening here, the mob mentality like when Moletrap switched to LoL because of a better offer. So many people went crazy personally insulting him and trying to hurt him.
Or what happened with Destiny, people started emailing Quantics sponsors and arguing in the thread saying they should be emailing other teams sponsors trying to get more people fired.
2 Years ago when I first discovered Teamliquid this was the most amazing place I had ever seen online, so many great and amazing people on these forums. Now there is a ton of witch hunts and terrible things happening.
All that said, I love Teamliquid and its honestly my favorite community ever. I also love eSports still, I love just coming home at night and watching the GSL or MLG or whatever tournament is on. I absolutely love seeing someone win an entire tournament and their struggle on how they got their. You have to take the good with the bad, and when you get the bad not say fuck everything, forgetting about the good.
I'm not a casual gamer, infact I still havent even played sc2 once, all I do is watch the highest level tournaments(and the streams once in a while), and I can still say I agree with some of your sentiments, but I also disagree strongly with others. I agree a lot with what jinro said way back in the first couple of pages.
There's no need to want it dead and burned down just because it's not your ideal situation.
Still I admire you saying how you feel about it and I think you write and delivery your message nicely, I can see why that thread would evoke such a response from you, it has a lot of people disgusted with the community.
Everyone keeps referring to Jinro's post... Do people not realize the inherent bias of the opinion he presents? As a person who plays SC2 professionally for the team that is the source of this website, do you think his motivation would be anything other than preserving "esports" ? The hype is what allows the teams to exist in the first place. I'm not saying you can't agree, but just saying so about a biased source is questionable and only shows the same mentality that Gheed's post was against.
On May 02 2012 12:18 Liquid`Jinro wrote: What a retarded thread lol
It's like whining about professional soccer destroying your ability to kick a ball around with your friends.
Esports evangelicism can be annoying as fuck, I dont disagree, but your post is silly.
It isn't really as people who like football just go and watch the games and support the teams and stuff they aren't always going on about how they need to spread the sport and just in general being aggravating whenever some kind of drama appears.
Esports is stupid, sc2 is cool, so all you gots to do is not read all these stupid posts on TL and just play. Easier said than done, given that I am here posting on TL...
Agreed. Fuck Starcraft 2 and the "new Blizzard", but above all fuck eSports.
I don't know how honest you were in OP when you said you wished SC2 a swift death and for HotS to be delayed but I do literally wish it a quick death.
Maybe I'm breaking from this thread's spirit, I don't know, but I have this selfish little thing in me that just wants for SC2 to die. I was going to write a big post but nobody will read it and nobody will care. I love SCBW so much, now it's mostly deserted. I tried so hard to love SC2, but it's a terrible game.
Sometimes I just wallow in self pity. Not even kidding. I miss Starcraft Brood War, and I hate what it has been replaced with. A boring, dumbed down "real time cute tactics" ball clasher game which is used by some corps to generate revenue.
On May 07 2012 06:27 Djzapz wrote:...which is used by some corps to generate revenue.
Yeah, because with Starcraft 1 Blizzard didnt want to make money.... wake up kid.
You don't get to call me "kid" when you don't even understand what I'm talking about, kid. I have no problem with Blizzard selling a game, and I honestly can't understand why you think I was saying otherwise (honestly what's wrong with you?). Although this is only a small part of what bothers me about "eSports", I dislike the heavy commercialization of SC2 beyond the sale of the game. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a communist - but the business around SCBW seemed to be made out of people who liked the game. It was, at least in large part, this love-love relationship. Now it's handled by this big, dirty capitalist machine because there's enough of us under the label "eSports" that we're a viable crowd to sell shit to.
And to make it clear, I never thought Blizzard and I were buddies. It's not even Blizzard I was talking about.
Welcome to the modernized, casualized world of videogames. I like that you've started to notice the dilution and gradual degredation of starcraft community, now let me point your attention elsewhere. See that? That's the former RPG genre of videogames. Ever since bioware signed a pact with the devil under the guise of EA, all stats, decision making, player-npc interaction, and RPG combat mechanics have gone out the window. Instead we now have pretty graphics, overfunded voice acting, and romances, everything else was unneaded anyways. But there's more! No longer will RPGs be single player one-time payment purchases, oh no now we have forced multiplayer DLCs and MMOs. Who wants a solitary payment of $50 when you can split you game up into sections and sell them independantly, or just make it monthly charged! And this was only the most recent genre to go. Don't even get me started on FPS's. So now that the casualization and mainstream catering has come to RTS's you finally feel its effects. All of videogames are going down this path. It's no longer about fun and entertainment so much as it is about profits. I don't know where this entire industry is heading but so far I don't like it. Hopefully something new will come out to replace gaming for us eventually. Untill then, we can only try our best to delay the process.
The casters have to be clean cut, wearing nice clothes, and trying as hard as humanly possible not to offend anyone. We're like the fucking Mormons!
This. THIS. I love BM, and I love commentating. And this is why I make peanuts commentating on my friends' streams instead of making decent money (not a living, but certainly a nice sum) on a secondary career.
On May 07 2012 06:27 Djzapz wrote:...which is used by some corps to generate revenue.
Yeah, because with Starcraft 1 Blizzard didnt want to make money.... wake up kid.
You don't get to call me "kid" when you don't even understand what I'm talking about, kid. I have no problem with Blizzard selling a game, and I honestly can't understand why you think I was saying otherwise (honestly what's wrong with you?). Although this is only a small part of what bothers me about "eSports", I dislike the heavy commercialization of SC2 beyond the sale of the game. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a communist - but the business around SCBW seemed to be made out of people who liked the game. It was, at least in large part, this love-love relationship. Now it's handled by this big, dirty capitalist machine because there's enough of us under the label "eSports" that we're a viable crowd to sell shit to.
And to make it clear, I never thought Blizzard and I were buddies. It's not even Blizzard I was talking about.
Everyone has a different mind set, some people see this as just a hobby, others want to make this something huge, make a living out of it, work full time in competitive gaming, like me.
I just want to watch high level RTS games. If having other people going around waving the "esports banner" like idiots is what it takes to get that, then I can live with it.
On May 09 2012 19:50 hxd wrote: Everyone has a different mind set, some people see this as just a hobby, others want to make this something huge, make a living out of it, work full time in competitive gaming, like me.
In my opinion, making something big means taking the soul of it and replacing it with money and business. It's like trying to make japanese monster porn huge. The vast majority of people on this planet don't appreciate porn in general (atleast openly). And the ones who do, do not necessarily enjoy japanese monster porn.
What I mean by this, is that you are trying to make an industry out of something, that is a niche (startcraft2) in a niche (computer games). This is simply not going to happen, unless you put money and business into it. Start advertising the shit out of it. Without TV commercials, huge banners and panini progamer stickers, it's unlikely to happen, ever. And where would the money for something like this come from? Yea.. nobody would invest that money, just like for japanese monster porn.
Can't say I've ever read something that summed up all my feelings, I now no longer have to post in threads like the spades hacking/orb racist/destiny racist threads... I can just remember that I'm not alone in thinking that everyone's completely lost the entire point of gaming.
From what I can see, though, esports are already legitimized, and have been long before SC2. Being a legitimate sport has nothing to do with whether or not it's on TV, or even whether or not there are corporate sponsors dumping money into the scene. All that is needed is that there be a competitive atmosphere and people who dedicate themselves whole-heartedly to said competition.
What makes sports beautiful- whether they're played on hardwood or in cyberspace, on cool green grass or hot tarmac- is not how many people are watching or how much money the winner(s) take home, but that primal, visceral sensation you get when you know victory is within your grasp- the glorious exultation of our ancestors when they brought down a hard fought kill. In that moment, we achieve a degree of self-actualization, enlightenment. It is complete and total affirmation of one's existence.
That's why I hate the whiny zealots who complain about how certain pros are "unprofessional". Professionalism in sports should come from the respect which is formed between competitors- it should not amount to the repression of one's self or personality because someone *might* be offended.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://d3eum8lucccgeh.cloudfront.net/designs/33005/Esports_navy.jpg)
