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On April 25 2011 20:17 Dali. wrote:
I really have a difficult time enjoying any caster who have never invested much effort into playing the game itself. Starcraft is a game with such depth to strategy and subtlety that to cast it without a strong knowledge of these things is a real fault on the caster behalf. Highlighting the intricacies of the game brings it alive. Its the difference between:
"Explosions and bullets tearing through the opponent and terran wins that battle convincingly"
to
"Oh my god, terran executed x strategical maneuvering perfectly, leading to y during the battle, and won convincingly because of it"
Understanding the foresight and execution of high level players should the essential core to any cast. Obviously slip ups or mischaracterizations are acceptable, but a caster should be looking to read into a strategy more than simply aggressive or defensive.
Personally, if I was being paid money to cast in front of thousands upon thousands of people, I would spend every free minute learning the game first hand. The respect and legitimacy it brings to a cast is invaluable. Some of my favourite moments in casts come when a caster has first hand experience playing against one of the players they're casting and is able to reference past games and is more competent at dissecting their style.
Obviously I'm not suggesting every caster be at code S level, but for goodness sake, if you're a figure head in the industry, at least get to masters league.
Sup brosef :D
Agree with all of that. Sure, if you're a caster who is focusing on entertainment value/play by play rather than intense analysis then you don't need an Artosis level of knowledge, but could it make your casting any worse? Obviously not. Knowing more can only make your casting better, and thus any serious caster should be trying to learn the game as best they can.
There's definitely no excuse for having an understanding as limited as TB's. SC2 is a real-time-strategy game, and if TB has no interest in furthering his understanding of the strategy component (which he has said, or at least implied, himself) then you have to doubt his passion for the game.
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TotalBiscuit is awesome. Sure, he dosent know that much about the game but he was able to get my friends who had never heard of or played Starcraft into the game. If it was Artosis or Day[9] casting they wouldn't have understood half the things they are talking plus TBs voice makes the game alot more exciting and to be honest they are the kind of people we need coming through the scene, people who didn't even know games were played competitively.
Care to comment?
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Yeah I muted it as soon as I realised he was casting. If you don't even know enough about the game to do play by play, what's the point...?
Other than to generate interest I don't know why they hired him. But whatever, I don't have any problem with him casting if other people like it.
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When i watch a tournament or youtube cast, i don't want to learn. I want to have some fun watching it, relax, maybe laugh a little and in general, just have a good time.
I don't care why Player X did Y, most of it i can see myself.
I like TotalBiscuit, Husky, Psy, Ahnaris and a lot of other casters because they are fun to listen to and have a good casting voice. I actually do not like the casting of Day[9]. I watch almost every Daily because there is always something to take away from it, but i don't want someone teaching me when i want to have fun.
Maybe every tournament should have 2 streams, one with an exciting caster, one with an analytic caster, then everyone will be happy (and we could compare which caster the people prefer).
It's just preferences... don't like it, don't watch it/mute it, download the replays. There is so much going on in SC2 at all times, there is often another tournament running at the same time.
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On April 25 2011 21:21 Morfildur wrote:
Maybe every tournament should have 2 streams, one with an exciting caster, one with an analytic caster, then everyone will be happy (and we could compare which caster the people prefer).
Does it really have to be exciting or analytical? Trying not to be presumptuous, but you might have misunderstood the blog/OP. As I understood and what I share, he doesn't want everything explained but would like casters to understand the game, so they aren't blabbering exciting nonsense all the time.
I'd ad that you can have all the entertainment and should, but supposed proleagues or top tier tournaments should cater to their prime audience (people who at least got the basics already down and expect the a more in-depth understanding from a commentator while still being exciting, offering diffrent flavors of casting, not necessarily analytical).
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I find it hard to listen to TB's casts, I don't think it's funny or entertaining informative or...well anything but a mild annoyance. The fact that he casts the games of players I like always irritates me. I just don't get it.
But other people get it. Lots of other people get it, like it, find it both funny and entertaining. So I guess I have to suck it up and listen to TotalBiscuit.
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TB is sounding more and more like a caricature of a real caster. His exaggerated accent, the blatant misinformation that comes out of his mouth, his recent strange fascination with violence and bloodshed (as if he were casting Call of Duty or something) the bizarre inflection he puts on random words.
I don't even get the impression I am listening to an actual person doing their best to cast a game anymore. To me he's become this cartoon character who just shouts things out for the duration of a given game.
I know, I am well beyond the point of being accused of grand hatery, but the guy seems way more interested in furthering his gimmick than truly being the sc2 equivalent of a sports broadcaster. I don't know what sports he watches, but I have never heard any commentators so absolutely focused on their own gimmicks and not the actual sport/game in question.
I think he is actually quite good outside of casting games. Those weekly steam deal videos I watched from beginning to end. I don't have an interest in World of Warcraft videos but I am sure those are just as good. My issue is he seems to put the proliferation of his wacky voice and zany phrases over the game and for me it's rapidly approaching parody.
He is honestly reaching Klazart levels for me
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Calgary25991 Posts
I don't understand why people are confusing their opinion with the sole way things have to be.
I really like TotalBiscuit's casting and I don't like you (OP) [I'm making a lot of money with my Philosophy degree FYI, I would be great at casting if I tried, I'm diamond but I'd by masters if I had time, lol]. Notice how I didn't open a blog explaining how you had to change your posting tone? That's because it's my personal opinion, not some universal barometer for quality.
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On April 25 2011 21:39 Bengalaas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 21:21 Morfildur wrote:
Maybe every tournament should have 2 streams, one with an exciting caster, one with an analytic caster, then everyone will be happy (and we could compare which caster the people prefer).
Does it really have to be exciting or analytical? Trying not to be presumptuous, but you might have misunderstood the blog/OP. As I understood and what I share, he doesn't want everything explained but would like casters to understand the game, so they aren't blabbering exciting nonsense all the time. I'd ad that you can have all the entertainment and should, but supposed proleagues or top tier tournaments should cater to their prime audience (people who at least got the basics already down and expect the a more in-depth understanding from a commentator while still being exciting, offering diffrent flavors of casting, not necessarily analytical).
Why are you so sure the prime audience are those that want in-depth commentating and people that care about the game understanding of the commentators?
I don't see TotalBiscuit saying nonesense all the time. Yeah, he makes mistakes, so does every caster, but why care so much? He is fun to listen to and i'd love it if he would cast more tournaments.
On the other hand, i hate all that caster-hate anyways. People don't get youtube subscribers because they are bad or stupid (otherwise i would have a million subscribers instead of 2 :p) and tournaments don't recruit casters purely by subscriber numbers (otherwise Husky would cast every tournament out there and Day[9] would never get to cast any), they also think about which audience they want to cater to. TotalBiscuit gets recruited for tournaments that target a " most are new to the game" audience, Day[9] or Tastosis for the "probably only people that are into the game anyways will ever watch it" tournaments.
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Calgary25991 Posts
I want to use this blog to talk about another point that isn't directly related: Casting and producing a VOD is much more hectic than sitting at your home and watching one.
I'll give you the most relevant example that I personally have. When we're commentating TSL, I'm not just watching the game, I'm often times reading other things on my monitor and trying to spend effort syncing up the replay. I'm frantically scrolling around looking for things to talk about. I'm occasionally getting messages from Hot_Bid and sometimes alt-tabbed looking at relevant webpages, gathering information. I find it impossible to have a full sense of the game's current state while doing all this. On top of this, I'm trying to listen to my co-commentator so I can play off his words and avoid repeating his statements.
My point isn't that commentating is so difficult, it's that doing many things at once makes you more likely to make mistakes or miss things.
Now, take all that and multiply it by 3 for what TotalBiscuit is doing in that game. He's also running the camera and doesn't have a cocaster. That's super important. When you aren't running the camera and have a cocaster, you can use the downtime to run around and update yourself on the current state of the game. When you don't have a cocaster, you have to keep talking. Always.
Sometimes it's my turn to talk and I don't have shit to say. Like I don't have any idea at all what I want to talk about when my cocommentator stops. So I just start talking and go with it. Sometimes I trap myself into contradicting myself and, in rare situations, I don't even believe in what I just said when it's finished. I remember one specific in the TLOpens, Morrow went for 14 Pool instead of expansion Hatchery and I explained how the economics of it weren't that bad. The next match Nerchio went 15 Hatchery and I explained how it was huge to get that economy going. The point is, if I had time to talk it through and explain what I meant I could have gotten to a point without contradiction, but I never had the time to get there.
I don't think these points are entirely relevant to TotalBiscuit. I think he's pretty bad at the game. But if you sat him down and asked him to write a document about the first 7 minutes of the game on Xel'Naga Caverns, I'm sure it would be strategically accurate and without logical fallacies. When you have to talk and talk and talk, these kinds of things are expected.
Now, if you don't like TB's focus on play-by-play and excitement while sacrificing analysis, that's fantastic, but keep it to yourself. Don't open a Blog called "I don't like this one person" listing all the ways they fucked up and how they have to fit into some mold you just invented.
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Calgary25991 Posts
You used ESPN ex-players and ex-coaches as an example.
Tell me another sport where they commentate at a pace like SC2? The closest I can think of is the UFC where Joe Rogan isn't talking for 90% of the broadcast.
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On April 25 2011 22:55 Chill wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
I want to use this blog to talk about another point that isn't directly related: Casting and producing a VOD is much more hectic than sitting at your home and watching one.
I'll give you the most relevant example that I personally have. When we're commentating TSL, I'm not just watching the game, I'm often times reading other things on my monitor and trying to spend effort syncing up the replay. I'm frantically scrolling around looking for things to talk about. I'm occasionally getting messages from Hot_Bid and sometimes alt-tabbed looking at relevant webpages, gathering information. I find it impossible to have a full sense of the game's current state while doing all this. On top of this, I'm trying to listen to my co-commentator so I can play off his words and avoid repeating his statements.
My point isn't that commentating is so difficult, it's that doing many things at once makes you more likely to make mistakes or miss things.
Now, take all that and multiply it by 3 for what TotalBiscuit is doing in that game. He's also running the camera and doesn't have a cocaster. That's super important. When you aren't running the camera and have a cocaster, you can use the downtime to run around and update yourself on the current state of the game. When you don't have a cocaster, you have to keep talking. Always.
Sometimes it's my turn to talk and I don't have shit to say. Like I don't have any idea at all what I want to talk about when my cocommentator stops. So I just start talking and go with it. Sometimes I trap myself into contradicting myself and, in rare situations, I don't even believe in what I just said when it's finished. I remember one specific in the TLOpens, Morrow went for 14 Pool instead of expansion Hatchery and I explained how the economics of it weren't that bad. The next match Nerchio went 15 Hatchery and I explained how it was huge to get that economy going. The point is, if I had time to talk it through and explain what I meant I could have gotten to a point without contradiction, but I never had the time to get there.
I don't think these points are entirely relevant to TotalBiscuit. I think he's pretty bad at the game. But if you sat him down and asked him to write a document about the first 7 minutes of the game on Xel'Naga Caverns, I'm sure it would be strategically accurate and without logical fallacies. When you have to talk and talk and talk, these kinds of things are expected.
Now, if you don't like TB's focus on play-by-play and excitement while sacrificing analysis, that's fantastic, but keep it to yourself. Don't open a Blog called "I don't like this one person" listing all the ways they fucked up and how they have to fit into some mold you just invented.
It's interesting to see how most casters support each other, no signs for rivalry at all. I don't know of any caster disliking any other, even if they theoretically might steal views, subscribers, fans, tournament contracts, etc.
Why can't the viewers do the same and just respect any caster for helping E-Sports and Starcraft 2 grow, every caster in his own way :-(
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I don't like Totalbiscuit that much as in I don't like his videos and I'm not interested in watching his streams. I have nothing against him as a person before some fanboy/girl jumps on me about it.
As for when I heard he was doing IPL I was a bit miffed but after watching the Idra game when it was streamed, it wasn't that bad. My only real criticism is that he talks way too fast for it all to be understandable. I had a headache by the time the game ended just trying to work out what he was saying and it was getting to the point where I was considering muting and seeing how much of my SC knowledge could tell me what was going on.
If he slowed down his talking he might actually do better.
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i'd just like to say that i feel insightful + analytical casting and entertaining casting is not mutually exclusive. It is up to the insightful casters not to bore the viewers to death as well as the responsibility of play by play casters to pick up and explain things that might not be apparent to the naked eye. There is a reason Artosis is deemed the deity of casting.
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Calgary25991 Posts
On April 25 2011 20:36 Swede wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 20:17 Dali. wrote:
I really have a difficult time enjoying any caster who have never invested much effort into playing the game itself. Starcraft is a game with such depth to strategy and subtlety that to cast it without a strong knowledge of these things is a real fault on the caster behalf. Highlighting the intricacies of the game brings it alive. Its the difference between:
"Explosions and bullets tearing through the opponent and terran wins that battle convincingly"
to
"Oh my god, terran executed x strategical maneuvering perfectly, leading to y during the battle, and won convincingly because of it"
Understanding the foresight and execution of high level players should the essential core to any cast. Obviously slip ups or mischaracterizations are acceptable, but a caster should be looking to read into a strategy more than simply aggressive or defensive.
Personally, if I was being paid money to cast in front of thousands upon thousands of people, I would spend every free minute learning the game first hand. The respect and legitimacy it brings to a cast is invaluable. Some of my favourite moments in casts come when a caster has first hand experience playing against one of the players they're casting and is able to reference past games and is more competent at dissecting their style.
Obviously I'm not suggesting every caster be at code S level, but for goodness sake, if you're a figure head in the industry, at least get to masters league. Sup brosef :D Agree with all of that. Sure, if you're a caster who is focusing on entertainment value/play by play rather than intense analysis then you don't need an Artosis level of knowledge, but could it make your casting any worse? Obviously not. Knowing more can only make your casting better, and thus any serious caster should be trying to learn the game as best they can. There's definitely no excuse for having an understanding as limited as TB's. SC2 is a real-time-strategy game, and if TB has no interest in furthering his understanding of the strategy component (which he has said, or at least implied, himself) then you have to doubt his passion for the game.
Do you work this hard at your job? I don't. I know the code and I can reference maybe a dozen sections, but I don't go home at night to reread the code and study drawings.
Why is Starcraft commentary different than any other job?
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I have to agree with the OP
What's the point of casting when you're saying the wrong things all the time? You might as well turn on NPR
@Chill
Nobody said casting was easy and mistakes are inevitable, but there's a point at which your commentary ceases to be useful. If he can write down a correct analysis in the game but can't do any correct analysis in real time then why is he doing solo casting for one of the bigger leagues?
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On April 25 2011 23:35 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 20:36 Swede wrote:On April 25 2011 20:17 Dali. wrote:
I really have a difficult time enjoying any caster who have never invested much effort into playing the game itself. Starcraft is a game with such depth to strategy and subtlety that to cast it without a strong knowledge of these things is a real fault on the caster behalf. Highlighting the intricacies of the game brings it alive. Its the difference between:
"Explosions and bullets tearing through the opponent and terran wins that battle convincingly"
to
"Oh my god, terran executed x strategical maneuvering perfectly, leading to y during the battle, and won convincingly because of it"
Understanding the foresight and execution of high level players should the essential core to any cast. Obviously slip ups or mischaracterizations are acceptable, but a caster should be looking to read into a strategy more than simply aggressive or defensive.
Personally, if I was being paid money to cast in front of thousands upon thousands of people, I would spend every free minute learning the game first hand. The respect and legitimacy it brings to a cast is invaluable. Some of my favourite moments in casts come when a caster has first hand experience playing against one of the players they're casting and is able to reference past games and is more competent at dissecting their style.
Obviously I'm not suggesting every caster be at code S level, but for goodness sake, if you're a figure head in the industry, at least get to masters league. Sup brosef :D Agree with all of that. Sure, if you're a caster who is focusing on entertainment value/play by play rather than intense analysis then you don't need an Artosis level of knowledge, but could it make your casting any worse? Obviously not. Knowing more can only make your casting better, and thus any serious caster should be trying to learn the game as best they can. There's definitely no excuse for having an understanding as limited as TB's. SC2 is a real-time-strategy game, and if TB has no interest in furthering his understanding of the strategy component (which he has said, or at least implied, himself) then you have to doubt his passion for the game. Do you work this hard at your job? I don't. I know the code and I can reference maybe a dozen sections, but I don't go home at night to reread the code and study drawings. Why is Starcraft commentary different than any other job?
How hard he works is entirely up to him. I don't care. My only point was that if this is his passion and he can be better, why not be better? Why not spend even just 30 minutes a day really trying to learn the game?
The point has been made that his casting is not supposed to be analytical, but that doesn't mean there is no analysis. Play by play still requires some amount of analysis, and TB is often quite off the mark. I'm not saying that he needs to analyse more, only that he should attempt to be on point with the analysis he does make.
I don't see how you can argue with that. I'm not saying he's a terrible caster. Sure, he's not my cup of tea but that has nothing to do with it. It's constructive criticism and that's it. He can take it or leave it.
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On April 25 2011 19:23 HwangjaeTerran wrote:
Wow, people are serious.
If you know the casters are making mistakes then your game knowledge is obviously good enough that you know what is going on. What's the problem? chill out
Nail on the coffin.
100 points for this guy.
I woke up today thinking I was too harsh, but it looks everyone else went the extra mile :3
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Calgary25991 Posts
On April 25 2011 23:37 hugman wrote:
I have to agree with the OP
What's the point of casting when you're saying the wrong things all the time? You might as well turn on NPR
@Chill
Nobody said casting was easy and mistakes are inevitable, but there's a point at which your commentary ceases to be useful. If he can write down a correct analysis in the game but can't do any correct analysis in real time then why is he doing solo casting for one of the bigger leagues?
This is the problem I have with people on this forum: They don't follow the chain of command of business and blame people who aren't to blame.
1. If TB isn't getting work, then he needs to change his style. If could get more work, then maybe he should consider changing his style. At some point, he will experience diminishing returns between effort/income and should be comfortable.
2. If tournaments aren't getting views, then they need to change their commentators. If they could get more views, then maybe they should consider changing their commentators. At some point, they will experience diminishing returns between pay/viewship increase and should be comfortable.
3. If you don't like a tournament, then you shouldn't watch it.
Okay, so following this, I can answer your question:
Q: If he can write down a correct analysis in the game but can't do any correct analysis in real time then why is he doing solo casting for one of the bigger leagues?
A: Because one of the bigger leagues hired him.
The question you meant to ask is why did one of the bigger leagues hire him, and that would be a complicated discussion involving their company's direction and goals with the league. I can't answer that and neither can you.
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EPT
