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Calgary26004 Posts
On April 26 2011 01:07 Swede wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 23:35 Chill wrote:On April 25 2011 20:36 Swede wrote:On April 25 2011 20:17 Dali. wrote:
I really have a difficult time enjoying any caster who have never invested much effort into playing the game itself. Starcraft is a game with such depth to strategy and subtlety that to cast it without a strong knowledge of these things is a real fault on the caster behalf. Highlighting the intricacies of the game brings it alive. Its the difference between:
"Explosions and bullets tearing through the opponent and terran wins that battle convincingly"
to
"Oh my god, terran executed x strategical maneuvering perfectly, leading to y during the battle, and won convincingly because of it"
Understanding the foresight and execution of high level players should the essential core to any cast. Obviously slip ups or mischaracterizations are acceptable, but a caster should be looking to read into a strategy more than simply aggressive or defensive.
Personally, if I was being paid money to cast in front of thousands upon thousands of people, I would spend every free minute learning the game first hand. The respect and legitimacy it brings to a cast is invaluable. Some of my favourite moments in casts come when a caster has first hand experience playing against one of the players they're casting and is able to reference past games and is more competent at dissecting their style.
Obviously I'm not suggesting every caster be at code S level, but for goodness sake, if you're a figure head in the industry, at least get to masters league. Sup brosef :D Agree with all of that. Sure, if you're a caster who is focusing on entertainment value/play by play rather than intense analysis then you don't need an Artosis level of knowledge, but could it make your casting any worse? Obviously not. Knowing more can only make your casting better, and thus any serious caster should be trying to learn the game as best they can. There's definitely no excuse for having an understanding as limited as TB's. SC2 is a real-time-strategy game, and if TB has no interest in furthering his understanding of the strategy component (which he has said, or at least implied, himself) then you have to doubt his passion for the game. Do you work this hard at your job? I don't. I know the code and I can reference maybe a dozen sections, but I don't go home at night to reread the code and study drawings. Why is Starcraft commentary different than any other job? How hard he works is entirely up to him. I don't care. My only point was that if this is his passion and he can be better, why not be better? Why not spend even just 30 minutes a day really trying to learn the game?
Why are you telling someone how to live their life? It's actually absurd. Why not spend 30 minutes a day reading a new book? Why not spend 30 minutes a day trying to get a more attractive girlfriend. Why not spend 30 minutes a day trying to get a better job? Why not spend 30 minutes a day doing exercise?
Am I crazy for thinking this?
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Like I said, I go based on the assumption that he is trying to improve, like all people who want to get better at their job and thus draw in more interest, people and opportunities.
Not sure why you guys think otherwise, because it's not visible or seen yet/immediately?
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When I question him casting games for IGN I'm not questioning his personal decision to work with IGN, I thought that was obvious. I don't mean that TB should turn down job offers because people on TL don't like him, that would be ridiculous, what I mean is that I wish IGN hadn't hired him as a solo caster.
I don't see why people shouldn't voice their criticisms. You can disagree with the way people do it (what happened with Kelly for example), but it's not inherently wrong to say you don't like an aspect of a league's production. Likewise it's not an outlandish request to ask of a caster to improve when said caster says things that are incorrect alarmingly often.
Consistently being wrong in your analysis isn't that much different from consistently being wrong in your play-by-play, it's just not as obvious to the uneducated viewer. Sure, maybe TB attracts a lot of viewers for IGN and it's the right choice to have him cast, but we can still disagree with that from our own perspective.
edit: also, I'm not listening to his commentary because I don't like it, but the "if you don't like it don't watch it"-argument is silly. They want me to watch, if there's something I don't like it benefits them if I voice my criticisms.
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First of all IGN has stated that the single-caster system is only for season 1, because it's a technical trial tournament.
Second, my friends who I can randomly get to watch an SC2 broadcast don't care for analytical commentary, they love the excitement, the words per minute, and that sexy accent. And for better or for worse, I have more friends who prefer that over semi-exciting but informative casting because, guess what, they don't know anything about the game and they don't care. They just want 30 minutes of time-killing.
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Read the OP. It's his opinion, but then he presses it with "For the preservation of E-Sports". As if his views are for the nobler cause of the entity of E-Sports.
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Baltimore, USA22261 Posts
I love it when Chill gets all excited. 
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On April 26 2011 02:02 EvilTeletubby wrote:I love it when Chill gets all excited.
Maybe he needs a new spoof-name for these moments. He has "Moderate temperature" for his unbiased commentaries, now we need "Boiling Over" for when he gets heated up.
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Calgary26004 Posts
On April 26 2011 01:53 hugman wrote:
When I question him casting games for IGN I'm not questioning his personal decision to work with IGN, I thought that was obvious. I don't mean that TB should turn down job offers because people on TL don't like him, that would be ridiculous, what I mean is that I wish IGN hadn't hired him as a solo caster.
I don't see why people shouldn't voice their criticisms. You can disagree with the way people do it (what happened with Kelly for example), but it's not inherently wrong to say you don't like an aspect of a league's production. Likewise it's not an outlandish request to ask of a caster to improve when said caster says things that are incorrect alarmingly often.
Consistently being wrong in your analysis isn't that much different from consistently being wrong in your play-by-play, it's just not as obvious to the uneducated viewer. Sure, maybe TB attracts a lot of viewers for IGN and it's the right choice to have him cast, but we can still disagree with that from our own perspective.
edit: also, I'm not listening to his commentary because I don't like it, but the "if you don't like it don't watch it"-argument is silly. They want me to watch, if there's something I don't like it benefits them if I voice my criticisms.
I have no problems whatsoever about people voicing their critcisms. They should do it freely and casters should accept the feedback freely.
What I do have a problem with, is people voicing their criticisms as if there is some golden standard casters have deviated from. You like analytical commentators and TB doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about at a deep level often times. It's great to make that known; however, it's not acceptable to say that he needs to learn the game because of of some invisible requirement or furthering esports reasoning. You would just like it if he learned the game more. I happen to like him as is. Since these are both subjective opinions, we're both right.
Unless you are a paid consultant, I don't know why you would watch something you can't stand to give feedback. That's a pretty selfless act. When I don't like something, I turn it off or watch it to make fun of it. I don't watch it to give constructive criticism to the league in hopes that they change the entire league based on my feedback.
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Exactly why I raised the concern in the first place, then got flamed for it: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=209144¤tpage=29#580
To be clear, TotalBiscuit sounds like a really great, funny guy. As a caster, however, I just find him hard to listen to on the principal that a lot of what he says is misinformation and misunderstanding, and apparently I'm not the only one that is bothered by it.
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Dear Chill (and a few others),
I don't believe I necessarily demanded anything. If anything, I simply flamed TB for a bit, then ranted about how I felt. The way I feel is that people should strive to be better, and that being better is what eSports needs right now.
As another person commented, bullets ripping through flesh is great for some things, but marines ripping through the unarmored Unit X seems to have more value. You can think otherwise, and I never said that anyone couldn't. My view of eSports is that the casters who have already been mentioned as being a cut above the rest are doing more for the overall experience. I can't help but feel that if I had a bigger name, or a higher post count, that people like Chill wouldn't come at me (bro) so hard.
You don't like me, Chill? I'm not really the biggest fan of you, but you don't tell people blatantly incorrect things. If people don't want to put in the work, then they won't. I did not say that you cannot cast any tournament whatsoever if you are not high masters (although I'd love an alternate stream, as another person mentioned). I did not say that IGN is a terrible company for hiring TB (and others).
Honestly, many of the posts on here act as if I am the actual voice of the progression of eSports. I did post this in the Blog section, and I really have zero pull in the community other than an ability to write a strongly worded email to sponsors, if I so choose. Who gives a fuck if I think TB and others should be held to a higher standard? Who gives a fuck what I think the future of eSports holds or is best served by? Apparently people with names as big as Chill. You say that your problem is with people voicing opinions as if there is "some golden standard". Well, I hate to break it to you, but my standard is what it is. If it doesn't apply to you or anyone else in the world, it's still what I will hope for. It is what I will post about in sections on TL such as the motherfucking blog section. I didn't go trouncing in to the tournament forum and start flaming away at the tournament, I didn't start a rally cry to fire TB, and I certainly did not say that my opinion in any way mattered.
What I did do is cry for help. I plead with my fellow Team Liquid readers (who decided on their own to come into the blog section) to hear my cry for better, more accurate, and at least a little more analytical commentary on major tournaments. I welcome your opinion, and I certainly don't recall typing anything saying that people could not have other opinions than mine. Sure, I speak of eSports as something that I hold to a high standard. That is because, as I have said, I see the potential for everyone to get better. Throwing out mass videos for the (mostly) uneducated masses on YouTube is not what I'm complaining about, and I do welcome people to hone their craft in that kind of a setting in my OP. Dislike me all you will, Chill and others, but I'll continue to hold people to a higher standard. It does not mean that I think some people are shit and will never get better. It means that I see the potential in them to be better and sometimes even great.
Chill, your last post just makes you sound like you really couldn't give a shit about anything that doesn't directly affect you. You sound like a sad little boy whose friend got picked on, so now you're here to tell everyone else that they're jerks for saying something. However, you actually point out that people are giving some constructive criticism. If you don't want to improve, go about your business. Your posts in this thread really do seem to indicate that you just want everyone to do whatever, because at least you'll still get to cast TL events, and if anyone wants to watch them, they can. And if they don't, they can go away. Surely that's not how you want people to take your casting, is it? I could have easily blocked non-supporters from posting in my blog section, and many people making the type of post I did would do so. A name like yours appearing in my first blog post on TL was not what I was expecting. It shows that the community is actually a very small world after all. However, I believe you either missed something in my post, confused my thoughts with that of others in the thread, and/or really just don't give a shit about what anyone other than yourself is doing in a cast. Dan called you Tasteless yesterday, bro. Shit happens.
Time to grow the fuck up, lads.
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I can't help but feel that if I had a bigger name, or a higher post count, that people like Chill wouldn't come at me (bro) so hard.
If you had a higher post count, a bigger name and a longer time here, you'd know that these ideas of yours are false (the idea that people wouldn't come at you if you had a bigger, elder background). Not Chill specifically, the members of the community simply don't hold those prejudices (am I using that word right?). Seniority doesn't validate views or opinions if the support for those views are lop-sided.
You're being criticized for what you say, not who you are or your impact in the community
Honestly, many of the posts on here act as if I am the actual voice of the progression of eSports.
Read your first post all over again. You make a leadership stance with "we" and "for e-sports" and now you're backing off? Don't retract your opinion, it's valid, acceptable and normal. But your approach and reasoning is terrible and your comparison to set a standard is beyond blasphemy. It's just utterly wrong...
Who gives a fuck if I think TB and others should be held to a higher standard? Who gives a fuck what I think the future of eSports holds or is best served by?
Clearly you thought people did otherwise you wouldn't have voiced them and in such a manner too. Now you're being a bit defensive and saying that we shouldn't garner attention or views about your opinion. You started out strong and proud and now you're shrinking your head and saying "why would you care about my views despite the fact that my opinion is of a viewer, one that casters want to accommodate to and enthrall with excitement or understanding of the game. However, being a philosophy major doesn't allow me to connect these dots unfortunately". Come on, connect the dots: everyone is drawing the line, saying, you can have an opinion, just remember it's an opinion and it'll be confronted.
Chill, your last post just makes you sound like you really couldn't give a shit about anything that doesn't directly affect you. You sound like a sad little boy whose friend got picked on, so now you're here to tell everyone else that they're jerks for saying something. However, you actually point out that people are giving some constructive criticism. If you don't want to improve, go about your business. Your posts in this thread really do seem to indicate that you just want everyone to do whatever, because at least you'll still get to cast TL events, and if anyone wants to watch them, they can. And if they don't, they can go away. Surely that's not how you want people to take your casting, is it? I could have easily blocked you from posting in my blog section, and many people making the type of post I did would do so. A name like yours appearing in my first blog post on TL was not what I was expecting. It shows that the community is actually a very small world after all. However, I believe you either missed something in my post, confused my thoughts with that of others in the thread, and/or really just don't give a shit about what anyone other than yourself is doing in a cast. Dan called you Tasteless yesterday, bro. Shit happens.
Oh boy.
I think I'll just say that the person who's taking these confrontations personally is the one who should grow up. :x
I could have easily blocked you from posting in my blog section, and many people making the type of post I did would do so
You can't block off staff from reading/posting your blog. Sorry.
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Calgary26004 Posts
On April 26 2011 03:13 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +I could have easily blocked you from posting in my blog section, and many people making the type of post I did would do so You can't block off staff from reading/posting your blog. Sorry.
You actually can. In your Blog options you can ban whoever you want (including staff) from being able to post in your Blog.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On April 26 2011 03:18 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 03:13 Torte de Lini wrote:I could have easily blocked you from posting in my blog section, and many people making the type of post I did would do so You can't block off staff from reading/posting your blog. Sorry. You actually can. In your Blog options you can ban whoever you want (including staff) from being able to post in your Blog.
Actually, I can't ban staff from my blog. Where there should be a ban button, there is simply a blank space.
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Calgary26004 Posts
On April 26 2011 03:20 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 03:18 Chill wrote:On April 26 2011 03:13 Torte de Lini wrote:I could have easily blocked you from posting in my blog section, and many people making the type of post I did would do so You can't block off staff from reading/posting your blog. Sorry. You actually can. In your Blog options you can ban whoever you want (including staff) from being able to post in your Blog. Actually, I can't ban staff from my blog. Where there should be a ban button, there is simply a blank space.
You used to be able to - maybe it was changed recently. I've been banned from several Blogs. My mistake.
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Yeah, it's changed. Can't block staff anymore D: Milkis will forever criticized my Pokemon builds!
On April 26 2011 03:20 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 03:20 motbob wrote:On April 26 2011 03:18 Chill wrote:On April 26 2011 03:13 Torte de Lini wrote:I could have easily blocked you from posting in my blog section, and many people making the type of post I did would do so You can't block off staff from reading/posting your blog. Sorry. You actually can. In your Blog options you can ban whoever you want (including staff) from being able to post in your Blog. Actually, I can't ban staff from my blog. Where there should be a ban button, there is simply a blank space. You used to be able to - maybe it was changed recently. I've been banned from several Blogs. My mistake.
Check if they've been reversed :B
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Can't block staff, thus the post was edited (before I read your post, which quoted the original) to just include a generality. Clearly you'd be one of the first on the list of people to ban, TdL, if I only wanted support.
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On April 26 2011 03:13 Torte de Lini wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I can't help but feel that if I had a bigger name, or a higher post count, that people like Chill wouldn't come at me (bro) so hard. If you had a higher post count, a bigger name and a longer time here, you'd know that these ideas of yours are false (the idea that people wouldn't come at you if you had a bigger, elder background). Not Chill specifically, the members of the community simply don't hold those prejudices (am I using that word right?). Seniority doesn't validate views or opinions if the support for those views are lop-sided. You're being criticized for what you say, not who you are or your impact in the communityShow nested quote +Honestly, many of the posts on here act as if I am the actual voice of the progression of eSports. Read your first post all over again. You make a leadership stance with "we" and "for e-sports" and now you're backing off? Don't retract your opinion, it's valid, acceptable and normal. But your approach and reasoning is terrible and your comparison to set a standard is beyond blasphemy. It's just utterly wrong... + Show Spoiler +Who gives a fuck if I think TB and others should be held to a higher standard? Who gives a fuck what I think the future of eSports holds or is best served by? Clearly you thought people did otherwise you wouldn't have voiced them and in such a manner too. Now you're being a bit defensive and saying that we shouldn't garner attention or views about your opinion. You started out strong and proud and now you're shrinking your head and saying "why would you care about my views despite the fact that my opinion is of a viewer, one that casters want to accommodate to and enthrall with excitement or understanding of the game. However, being a philosophy major doesn't allow me to connect these dots unfortunately". Come on, connect the dots: everyone is drawing the line, saying, you can have an opinion, just remember it's an opinion and it'll be confronted. Chill, your last post just makes you sound like you really couldn't give a shit about anything that doesn't directly affect you. You sound like a sad little boy whose friend got picked on, so now you're here to tell everyone else that they're jerks for saying something. However, you actually point out that people are giving some constructive criticism. If you don't want to improve, go about your business. Your posts in this thread really do seem to indicate that you just want everyone to do whatever, because at least you'll still get to cast TL events, and if anyone wants to watch them, they can. And if they don't, they can go away. Surely that's not how you want people to take your casting, is it? I could have easily blocked you from posting in my blog section, and many people making the type of post I did would do so. A name like yours appearing in my first blog post on TL was not what I was expecting. It shows that the community is actually a very small world after all. However, I believe you either missed something in my post, confused my thoughts with that of others in the thread, and/or really just don't give a shit about what anyone other than yourself is doing in a cast. Dan called you Tasteless yesterday, bro. Shit happens. Oh boy. I think I'll just say that the person who's taking these confrontations personally is the one who should grow up. :x I could have easily blocked you from posting in my blog section, and many people making the type of post I did would do so You can't block off staff from reading/posting your blog. Sorry.
In my OP, I use the term 'we' because I believe that everyone should hold the voices of our chosen hobby/passion/whatever to a higher standard. Pretty sure I explained this in my post this morning, but whatever. You have a misconception of what I was trying to do (which was really just flame TB and rant a bit, as stated later on), but I have no interest in fighting these kinds of battles. Take what you will from the words I typed. I did not back down, I simply clarified.
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Keep in mind TB is a caster...he is supposed to make things exciting even if they are boring...and he is really good at doing that (edit: this might include exaggerating parts). I have heard a lot of commentators in my starcraft life, and he's at least top 3 for me.
Also, he is human dude, who gives a shit if he didn't say the EXACT word phrase PERFECTLY correct. Maybe you might notice because you live and breath that stuff...but 99% of people don't notice. TB has been commentating pretty well since the start of SC2 and many people include myself love him. Keep in mind you're also only really talking about one series...talk about nitpicky.
Point being, little harsh on your end there.
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On April 26 2011 03:49 Zapdos_Smithh wrote:
Keep in mind TB is a caster...he is supposed to make things exciting even if they are boring...and he is really good at doing that (edit: this might include exaggerating parts). I have heard a lot of commentators in my starcraft life, and he's at least top 3 for me.
Also, he is human dude, who gives a shit if he didn't say the EXACT word phrase PERFECTLY correct. Maybe you might notice because you live and breath that stuff...but 99% of people don't notice. TB has been commentating pretty well since the start of SC2 and many people include myself love him. Keep in mind you're also only really talking about one series...talk about nitpicky.
Point being, little harsh on your end there.
Well I think that's his point and what prompted the OP, it's not little mistakes here and there, he was just plain wrong and contradicting himself throughout the entirety of 2 games and OP couldn't take it anymore and had to post it on TL.
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On April 26 2011 03:49 Zapdos_Smithh wrote:
Keep in mind TB is a caster...he is supposed to make things exciting even if they are boring...and he is really good at doing that (edit: this might include exaggerating parts). I have heard a lot of commentators in my starcraft life, and he's at least top 3 for me.
Also, he is human dude, who gives a shit if he didn't say the EXACT word phrase PERFECTLY correct. Maybe you might notice because you live and breath that stuff...but 99% of people don't notice. TB has been commentating pretty well since the start of SC2 and many people include myself love him. Keep in mind you're also only really talking about one series...talk about nitpicky.
Point being, little harsh on your end there.
-Many people disagree on what the caster's role is in SC2
-Credibility is important... There is a difference between FPS and RTS games. If the game is an action game, shouting and excitement would be understandably prominent, but when it is a strategy game and what the caster says makes absolutely no sense, it becomes problematic to a lot of people.
-It's not one series, most people here have heard multiple casts by him, including myself. It's just criticism though, no need to make it personal as I'm sure he is a pretty cool guy.
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EPT
